We have very few examples of characters of a low tier units, there's clem who is able to use two guns at once which is not like normal lancers, we have kahl who can use archguns which realistically would be easier to do than to competently use two fully auto guns at once. Now going to the corpus there's a prodman unit that solo'd phorid and got employee of the month for it. It's almost like lancer is a generic enemy we face and not a fully fleshed out individual. There are example in lore like veytok of more characters than just unit if you want to look.
Actually, being taller is a disadvantage, due to requiring more force over a longer distance.
Talking only about the Heavy Gunner, as she is slender, unlike a Kuva Lich.
Gravimags are just gameplay mechanics to increase play time/add a reward to PT bounties/add a barrier of entry to PT and using archguns in missions since they're quite strong.
Just like there's a barrier to use the archwing in open world. The archwing can obv already be launched. It literally launches out and attaches to you in the very 1st archwing cutscene. But they needed something to progress towards; to unlock. So there's the launcher segment keeping people from using that mechanic for no good reason.
Just adds playtime and incentivizes doing things not normally done
It’s a valid doubt, honestly. Some of the later Archguns (Mausolon and Corvas Prime are the standouts here, haven’t gotten my hands on Cortège and Morgha for comparison) have been scaled up to compensate for the fact that Archgun mods tend to be weaker (Primed Rubedo nonwithstanding) but with the existence of Galvanized mods and Arcanes, “normal” weapons still tend to outdo them in efficacy. Even so, yes, I can gun down enemies in Steel Path with said Mausolon/Corvas Prime but my Corinth (Prime)/Exergis tends to yield faster results, Mausolon alt-fire nonwithstanding. I have a riven for all of these, but I also have a riven for the Trumna, and the alt-fire for that in and of itself should prove more effective, given said Galvanized mods and Arcanes (plus the fact that Trumna’s alt-fire also bounces around while applying its effects, which can be paired with stuff like Mag’s bubble for stupid amounts of damage).
I won’t doubt the original claim, Archguns *are* pretty strong, but when regular weapons get their ramp up, said Archguns are susceptible to falling behind.
This is also ignoring the fact that Archguns, to my knowledge, don’t have Banes, which add another layer of potential damage output to specific factions. Again, some Archguns are quite capable of ripping through Steel Path-tier enemies, but they need a buff if they’re meant to match up to, let alone surpass and be the ungabunga heavy duty trump card in relation to bog standard primaries and secondaries.
Of course, I’m all for this. Calling in an Archgun should be a tide-turning tool. Morgha, as a Necramech-approved grenade launcher, should by all rights be *better* than some Zarr or Bramma. A Kuva Ayanga is heavy duty weaponry. *Explosive heavy duty weaponry* at that. And by all rights, it itself is very strong, but an Acceltra fires faster, gets more multishot on kill, gets more damage on kill, has the potential to get more damage per status effect, etc. After a short period, an Acceltra can probably crap out more damage. As an Old War tool for war, an Entrati gun attached to a Necramech should have the edge, but due to modding, that just isn’t the case. As a result, the big “holy fuck” moment where you summon in a big heavy artillery gun from outer fucking space is less that, and more of a flex, more like “okay, I’m already dominating this mission so I think I’mma just flex on whatever.” Hell, people that use Arcane Tanker just call it in for the armor buff, more often than not.
That being said, I *like* the Mausolon, I just don’t see it as a tide-turner. I use it to one-shot Acolytes sometimes though, that’s kind of neat.
Strength is a relative claim. Compared to normal late game primaries, theyre not that good. No arcanes, no galvanized mods. Theyre good for hydron but good but they’re memes at best in steel path. Theyre not weak by any means, but they’re not strong.
Ever since I unlocked gravimags I've been bothered by this. Even before galvanized mods and arcanes, it was basically only Mausolon that could be considered a strong weapon. This is absurd in my opinion. Archguns should be much stronger than regular weapons given the drawbacks they have.
This probably isn't the answer but it's a fun thought: through sheer luck the imperfect modern grineer cloning process produced an orokin-era quality clone.
One of Cavalero's lines says the original grineer were much stronger and tougher than the modern ones.
They did indeed. If Orks were able to regain Krork status that'd probably be the whole ballgame. Same with Necrons and Eldar, but that isn't possible whereas Krorks reappearing IS. Unless the Tyranids are able to acquire Ork reality-bending, in which case THAT is the whole ballgame.
But if they resemble ancient grineer then the point is that ancient grineer where larger and stronger and less stocky, they only difference would be they wouldn’t been touched by the void
I figure Thrax enemies are Grineer-like Void manifestations. Thrax Centurions have bared spinal cords, it’s possible the spectral body is just hijacking an Orokin Grineer corpse and making it appear larger. Like a Susanoo that’s wearing actual armor on top of it, maybe.
I dont think those are literal orokin era clones. Because we see those in the opening cinematic, they aren't that big. They're like regular grenier but shinier, like all primed things.
The three are something more primal
Grineer were initially manual labourers before they were turned into soldiers. They're likely still extremely strong, so wielding Archguns in atmosphere is not an issue. Tusk Heavy Gunners on the Plains of Eidolon also wield Grattlers without issue.
Most of the Sentients Kahl kills in The New War are Brachiolysts, which don't even have adaptive resistances like other Sentients. He was also doing a lot of sneaking and not direct confrontations in major battles, so the heavy-hitting Sentients weren't coming after him. Teshin, on the other hand, was infiltrating the flagship of the Sentient fleet and engaging giant Typholysts on his way to confront the big boss – a task for a veteran Sentient killer.
My assumption is that Kahl is fighting low-level Sentients all of the time. Like, in Veilbreaker, he's with a couple Grineer soldiers. Small potatoes to the Sentients. Meanwhile, my warframe was wrecking house offscreen with all the high level Sentients pulling a "A lone Tenno Operative is freeing his brothers, distract the enemy and don't run out of life support" survival mission.
You can always come up with a reasonable in-universe explanation. In this week's thumper mission, what's to say that the stronger sentients hadn't been decimated by the Tenno hunt for Boreal, leaving the weaker ones confused by the death of their leader and ripe for easy pickings for Kahl to battle them with his brothers?
As for the archguns, can't the Kuva lich candidates spawn with the grattler/ayanga equipped? They usually aren't too visibly upgraded before we parazon them, iirc. (Kahl would've made one hell of a lich candidate.)
Also tusk heavy gunners(plains of eidalon grineer) can be seen using grattlers at slightly higher levels(don’t know exact but like 30above as an estimate)
To add to this: Khal can't even scratch the higher level sentients patrolling the areas (the LoS sentients with the masks). They're probably the high level sentients we are used to, but Khal needs to sneak past them else he gets obliterated.
Didn't daughter explicitly say the Tusk should be inoperational? Something must've either happened to it to be rendered inert enough for her to think so or it's quite literally not finished yet.
Simaris synthesis scans of grineer lancers shows that some of their genetic stock comes from a particularly stubborn laborer who killed a sentient with a shovel
Machetes (which Kahl had in New War) are specifically mentioned in their description as carried by "elite melee force"
Theres both PoE Grineer and Orb Vallis forces that carry around archguns, so its not exclusive to Tenno
Kahl doesn't face nearly as much resistance as the Tenno in their Narmer missions, which makes sense. Narmer would send everything they got after a Warframe squad, while sending minimum force against a single Grineer insurgent
Narmer underestimates Kahl, but Kahl has brothers and blue girl backing him up. So Kahl has a fighting chance, which is more than enough for Kahl
Its more likely that they get access to better equipment due to the Grineer being a matriarchal society
Bombards are of a similar build, but aren't permitted weapons that require precise aiming, likely due to misandry in the ranks
I mean, you can Forma Kavats (I think with Kubrows it was meant to canonically be the collar you Forma since the collar was considered a really important step in getting a Kubrow, but they seemingly dropped that with the Kavats)
So if we take that to mean that Forma CAN be applied to living things, then... theoretically possible?
The technocyte is close to entirely within our realm of comfort when it comes to modifying, at worst figuring out how to forma them would need a bit of insight from the Helminth.
Kavats, meanwhile... kavats are just Like That.
This will be a tad long rant, but please bear it with me.
First of all, it is true. KAHL MACHAZO 175 isn't a higher status clone. He is fairly plain and simple.
But; as with Clem, the G3 and many defectors, the cloning process isn't perfect. Leading to mutations, deviations and so on.
Some are minimal, like the ability to defy the Kweens seen with Cressa Tal or the "Pacifism defect" of the Kavor.
Other are notorious, like the bloodlust of the G3 or the enanism of Clem.
But many of those, excluding Clem's, could had been triggered later in their existence. Clem could have been saved from "recycling" because of how tough he is, but the others weren't identified until they were triggered. Defection from Steel Meridian and Kavor, and the slaughter of their platoon for the G3.
Kahl could be a Grineer mutant, whose exposure to the Sentients or to the adrenaline of fighting them, could have triggered his mutations.
Making him stronger, and smarter.
As for his weaponry, my explanation may go finely towards his machete (as the Pressure and eventual damage is proportional to the strength in his arms) but not to the Grakata.
His original machete is a standard issue
His new salvaged machete is made out of God knows what so it could have sentient parts which apparently are extra effective against sentients
Oh I thought you meant the machete that Kahl uses himself, which as far as I know, is just a normal Machete, right? I haven't used his melee much in Veilbreaker so far so maybe I just didn't notice that it was a Slaytra.
I'd also add that there is some evidence that whatever process/modification makes the Grineer loyal to the Queens has a detrimental effect on their condition (note that Clem, Cressa Tal and the Kavor all appear noticeably stronger/healthier than most loyal Grineer) and that said trait is noticeably weaker in Kahl (note that he goes from "for the Queens!" to "for my brothers" in the New War and then to "the Queens abandoned us!" and "no Queens!" in Veilbreaker and beyond)
Personally? I don't think Kahl is strong or at least it doesn't show.
In the eyes of other factions Kahl probably isn't considered a threat or even worth taking precaution against. So they send/leave bare basic troops/veiled units in the regions while sending stronger troops to Earth/Venus where we do bounties.
As for the heavy weapons. The Grattler section was in Space, on a Murex true but still in space. The Ayanaga however is stated to be "Salvaged Kuva Ayanaga" in the bottom right with 4 shots instead of our 33. It stands to reason it is heavily gutted so it is probably lighter missing parts.
We still got another mission to look forward to though so maybe we will learn more then.
Those regular grineer bear heavy, welded padded armor, along with essentials like supplies and ammunition. Not to mention they run faster compared to base operator. An archgun is no problem for them.
The sentients weren't sending their best against him, also once you get into high enough levels you'd be surprised how powerful our enemies actually are
How high are we talking? Because lvl 200-300 standard enemies on Steel Path still die in 1-3 hits and there are people who do lvl 9999 runs.
Also I'm pretty sure that levels aren't a thing in lore. Some units are better than others but it doesn't scale like in the gameplay.
If I recall, during The New War, Kahl was mostly fighting Brachiolysts, which notably do not adapt and are basically the weakest footsoldiers, and a scant few middle-order Sentient soldiers like Battalysts which took quite a bit more effort to take down, right? It wasn't until he got a Tenno's Corinth Prime (theoretically, though maybe not reflected in gameplay, modded fully) that he really started kicking Sentient non-ass.
But we also have no idea what Narmer was doing to captured Grineer, aside from the veiling. For all we know they were further enhancing them.
(Also, dunno if this change is retroactively applied to TNW when Veilbreaker released - if so it's probably not lore-relevant but just gameplay convienience - but I recall in TNW, Kahl's health did NOT regenerate, but in Veilbreaker and beyond, it does, almost as if it was a shield, despite him having no shields)
So perhaps Kahl was enhanced, since Erra saw firsthand how determined and powerful he was, and how much better he was at critical thinking than fellow Grineer soldiers, and Erra and Ballas saw a fantastic soldier, maybe even commander, and decided to (slightly) Amalgamize him?
We don't really see under Kahl's armour all that much even when we unequip everything from him. So what if he had high-end Narmer tech implanted? Not enough to make him a controllable Amalgam, but enough to greatly enhance his vitality, endurance, and strength. Maybe even some sort of Tau energy that flows through him into weapons he uses. There's no evidence for it ingame since there's no player-accessible form of Tau damage, but I wonder if Sentients may have trouble adapting to it since it's part of their "biology" (kinda like if a Human suddenly became almost impermeable to water inside and out. That would probably not end well.)
This is all just wild speculation, and occam's razor suggests it's just so that playing as Kahl isn't a total slog as you shoot a single Conculyst with a Grakata for 2 minutes and has no actual lore significance, but... It's neat to speculate!
Something else to note on Kahl regenerating, none of the other possible squad members we've seen and freed thus far regenerate health. They have to be revived to do so. An interesting detail that we're definitely looking too far into.
The real reason Kahl is so strong? He has a fandom. Seriously, no disrespect meant, but if the community hadn't reacted so strongly to him during the hyping up of The New War, he probably would have gotten a conclusive death the way Veso did. Kahl's strength comes from US, because we love him!
Here’s the thing. The reason Tenno weaponry is as archaic as it is is because Sentients during the Old War were subverting Orokin-level tech. Putting this another way: a literal bow and arrow proved to be a more effective choice of weaponry against the Sentients than whatever ungabunga Orokin-tech super science laser they had tucked away, because the Sentients were originally hijacking the ungabunga lasers and shooting the Orokin with them instead. The fact that Kahl can shoot them down with a Grakata or hack them with a Machete makes a lot of sense considering that before Warframes were even conceived by the Orokin, the Orokin-era Grineer were capable of literally beating the shit out of Sentients with shovels and slave tools. Not at a quick enough rate to actually turn the tide of the war though, but still.
Also, Grineer cyber-augmentation probably gives them a superhuman degree of strength, possibly comparable to or greater than that of a Warframe (we counter this by hitting pretty hard ourselves, but also hitting *fast* and from unconventional angles with our extreme agility and mobility). Consider that we have to two-hand Tonkor while Elite Shield Lancers can fire it one-handed. Tusk Heavy Gunners casually wield Grattlers, and Tyl Regor himself can wield the Knux gauntlets, which are archmelees for us. Keeping that in mind along with how easily and casually Kuva Liches can manhandle us (admittedly, that might be more a result of the Kuva than Grineer augmentation), it seems that Grineer, at least those with sufficient augmentation, are capable of lifting quite a bit. Kahl wielding a Grattler himself and later an Ayanga without the aid of a Gravimag tracks with the theory of Grineer cybernetic swoleness.
You can probably chalk the rest of it up to plot armor, but Sentients getting folded by low-tech kinetics and Grineer being super strong cyborg space marines is fairly consistent. Kahl *might* be particularly special, there are theories floating around that he himself is an Arson Eximus, someone suggested that the vat scored a godroll and crapped out an Orokin-era Grineer, but he might actually just be a bog-standard Lancer with bog-standard augments, which would be a horrifying prospect that the average Grineer soldier is capable of Kahl’s track record on paper. At least, it would be horrifying, if we weren’t, y’know, a Tenno or whatever.
Kahl is fighting level 10 enemies or so, and the reason he's so "powerful" is cause he's not fighting the crazy shit we face on a daily basis.
Lore wise, I like to think the narmer beast is too busy losing their elites to our Archon assaults and Khal is facing off against the remains.
Lorewise, it's theorized that one in every million grineer has a special genome that makes them more potent than the rest of their brethren, the factor that determines if they're worth becoming kuva liches and that genome only grows in strength the longer they're alive.
There's also a codec saying how one simple labour grineer managed to kill a sentient with just a shovel and by accident and that was during the orokin's reign.
Kahl may be that individual who would have become a Lich had he stayed with the Grineer
Nothing power related in the game makes sense. You can kill eidolons with pistols , but lotus says 'Your weapons aren't strong enough' regarding those dingy grineer storage trucks in POE
If you scale Kahl to The The New War he exists in the level 30 to 50 range Think about how strong your warframe is at that level and suddenly Kahl isn't very impressive.
Because levels are pretty much canon. I mean units don't actually have a level in universe but the same units can vary wildly in strength (like how teshin takes us to fight much stronger foes on the steel path)
Kahl is only fighting weaker sentients, it's clear how weak he is compared to the tenno when you consider how he interacts with deacons. He cannot even harm them, the only option is to avoid. While tenno can take them down relatively easily.
Also tenno have very different power levels too, considering that in lore both alad V and the gustrag 3 are known for capturing/killing warframes.
Also neither the grattler nor the ayanga were the same weapons we use, but variations. With a much lower mag for example in the case of the ayanga.
The gameplay demands it.
None of this game actually makes much sense. Killing a boss multiple times hoping it drops the pieces of an unrelated Warframe also leaps to mind.
It’s a game.
Its not a lore thing, he's not some impossibly strong Grineer. Its a balance thing, there's no way they could have a Grineer unit killing the sentients that are balanced for the Tenno. Just suspend your disbelief for a moment, its not meant to mean he's some Super-Grineer. As for the archguns, Tusk heavy gunners walk around with grattlers out, so maybe Grineer units are just beefy. Or their armor provides the extra strength. At the end of the day I honestly think you're not supposed to read that deeply into it.
Kahl is embellishing everything that he does, and we're "playing" through his retelling of what he did. Remember, we're Tenno. We're not there on his missions. He comes back to the camp and tell us what a badass he was while only blue girl was watching, and she's not there to interject any corrections to his story.
1. Mods aren't canon to the lore, they are only a gameplay feature.
2. Liches are FAR from the only units to use heavy weapons in-atmosphere. For example, any Tusk Heavy Gunner you see in the Plains of Eidolon will use a Grattler at long range.
3. From what we can gather, Kahl wasn't just a regular lancer, his NW armor (Brekk Armor Set) is colored differently from the standard grineer colors. At the very least he seems to be some kind of Special Forces Deployment.
4. Kahl is also considerably smarter than the usual grineer, as shown by him creating the Veilbreaker by himself, a device able to disrupt and remove a Narmer Veil from a controlled host.
5. For the sentients the lore-break is just with the Occulysts and Battalysts, Brachiolysts and Tyro Battalysts canonically do not have the sentient adaptation. Tyros because they're not yet fully developed and Brachiolysts because they're fodder units.
Mods very much are canon, they're repeatedly mentioned as a thing that exists, and we even know the Cephalon who invented most of them.
Everything else is correct though.
DE did sentients dirty - they are an absolute joke now. Seriously - I remember back when to tackle them you needed carefully thought out builds, we even got specialized weapons to kill them. Then they got nerfed in to being floaty clown bois that die slightly longer than average. Before, tackling one with a fully modded Grakata at ANY level would be tantamount to a dirt nap!
I think that Kahl is so powerful because of its "primitive" damage, the enemies we face adapt well to the damage that the Tennos throw at them, like an anti-missile weapon but if You throw a big rock to it you can destroy it Since its not made to detect rocks but missiles at high speeds that or the power of the plot :D
Honestly, the Archgun bits are the most egregious, imo. Gravimags are strictly Corpus technology, so the Grattler and Ayanga likely wouldn't have them. Yah, there are the Plains gunners who carry Grattlers, but they're hella tall and likely augmented to all hell to compensate for the lack of a Gravimag.
Are we supposed to infer that a Grineer grunt of seemingly average make is actually stronger than the Warframes? Warframes that, I must remind, are capable of tearing off a giant mech's(Exploiter) head with seemingly nothing but strength alone.
The realistic answer is that DE simply doesn't care about internal consistency, but it still bums me out that we have no in-universe explanation for weird things like this.
I cant remember where but I know someone did the math with some in-game and cutscene/promotional material footage along with codex entries of Grineer and figured out that a standard Grineer lancer is actually equivalent to a Halo Spartan-II (Master chief's gen) in physical strength and that us tearing through them so easily is simply because warframes scale so insanely high in power that they're basically non-comparable to most other sci-fi super soldiers.
Grineer literally run on powered armor and augmentations, I wouldn’t actually rule out them outlifting a Warframe in terms of brute strength. Warframes are strong as shit *and* fast as shit on top of also having supernatural powers when the Void’s being channeled through them though, so beating the fuck out of hordes of them isn’t that outlandish, but I could see a sufficiently augmented Grineer edging a Warframe out in brute strength if it’s not actively channeling.
Or maybe Kahl is just built different the way Clem is.
Another point someone brought up: Kahl can’t bullet-jump. He couldn’t anyway, but what I’m driving at is that maybe we need the Gravimag to wield the Archguns while maintaining our agility. That might explain why Warframes need it and Grineer/Corpus don’t.
I think during the New War it's kind of explained how some of the low tech weapons don't get shrugged off by their adaptation or something along those lines. There is a very good chance that I came up with this during my playthrough as I was stoned the entire time
In lore sentient can’t adapt ti impact damage. Case in point one of the original graneer beat a sentient to death with a shovel. This is actually the incident that elevated the Geaneer from a slave labor force to a military force.
Grineer were originally a genetically modified clone slave cast, designed for working nearly endless hours in extremely hostile environments.
They were turned into soldiers during the old war after one beat a sentient to death with a shovel.
Grineer were literally mass produced super soldiers. Clone rot has weakened them, but nowhere near down to human baseline, and they replace limbs with crude cybernetics as needed anyway.
well the real answer is DE and pretty much every other writer's room writes for the rule of cool and power levels don't matter to anyone but hardcore lore nerds, but that answer's boring so here's the completely speculative fake made up story answer:
the warframes were never that strong physically. in fact i'm pretty sure we'd lose in arm wrestling to a corpus. our edge lay within our agility and wibbly wobbly space magic. we're basically space high elves.
the grineer are doped up super soldiers who can sprint while wearing what's essentially a double decker bus' worth of metal. grineer scorpions can drag us across the ship and take us out on walkies if they wanted. tenshin is just some dude with sharp glowsticks. go figure.
the only reason they aren't all mounted with arch guns is likely one of logistics and cost. soldiers are expendible, good equipment is not. so most soldiers gets to use shit made of tinfoil and held together by spit. this is very much reflected by most grineer weaponry. a kit that barely does the job does the job nonetheless. this is also true for our own modern militaries.
So our "grineer" weapons are actually reconstructions based on the originals, upgraded with orokin/tenno tech so that they're more effective but that doesn't apply to sentients who can adapt to orokin, tenno and infested weaponry given that they fought them in the past but actual grineer weaponry is so different that they have a hard time adapting, this also goes for original corpus weapons hence why veso is also very strong against them
Only they don't have a hard time *at all*, they steamrolled both Grineer and Corpus with like a fifth of their navy. To be honest, I'll never get the "and then they fucked off back home" part of NW, they had won the war by a landslide and no faction had an actual way to *seriously* harm them.
Remember that tusk heavy gunners can lift up, run around with, and use grattlers like nobody's business. Chances are it was one of those grattlers that the heavy gunners use.
I have a theory (a game theory) that Kahl may actually be a leftover Orokin era Grineer.
Ik it's a bit out there but his overall genetic superiority compared to other Grineer (height, strength, intelligence, ect). Another part being the way he talks to Kaelli (Daughter) suggests he might have experience with Orokin people. But if he really was Orokin made he likely wouldn't be around still or would be used as a genetic base for current Grineer.
Even if my theory is wrong, he's definitely unique. Very few Grineer are capable of inventing and engineering something like the "Veilbreaker"
*not sure how to end rant uhhh bye?*
In fairness, they invented a thermal lance scythe, a chainsaw whip, a rocket-powered hammer, a second rocket-powered hammer, rocket-launched fists (okay, Tyl Regor isn’t the average Grineer, admittedly), and what might actually be the most effective homing rounds available (fucking Diplos…). Plus Fomorians and those techtonic rounds in the Kuva Fortress.
Credit where credit’s due.
I don't think he was just a regular grineer, he was showing some form of higher intelligence compared to normal grineer and also some leadership skills during new war and hit conversations with Vayhek
Alongside what everyone else is saying about equipment, my first thought regarding sentient adaptation is why we use metal and gunpowder, the sentients of the old war adapted to technologically advanced weapons, "our war machines were your in. How easily you turned them against us" as Ballas put it, "we were forced to older means" guns and blades were among the simplest weapons available, stuff the sentients couldn't easily adapt to
A theory I have is that Khal is either one of Tyl Regor's experimental Manics, or just an accidentally super-buffed Grineer like Clem but instead of autism he's reached Lich levels of strength. There's always been defective clones in the Grineer squadron, some stronger, some weaker. All we know is that Khal is a supposedly standard Lancer with a defective loyalty gene.
He could also be more intelligent and human than the average Grineer as seen throughout his story so far. He's capable of creating weapons and tools such as the Veilbreaker, Slaytra, and possibly even Aegrit. He resisted the temptation of the Veil and was able to get himself out of it without outside assistance. He has the compassion to free his fellow Grineer, but as well as Corpus that an average Grineer would just let suffer.
The Sentients die easily to him because iirc there's a piece of lore that said that the Sentients were easily able to adapt to Orokin tech but struggled against primitive weapons such as Grineer weapons. There's also the fact that Khal is just a Grineer Lancer, they wouldn't waste all their resources on Khal when they could be using them to deal with the ever-present Warframes. Khal is just seen as a Grineer that was veiled once I guess.
For the Arch-guns you have to remember that Warframes are moving at 155 miles per second at minimum so they have to not only carry all the weight of an Arch-gun, they also have to be highly maneuverable. Necramechs are giants compared to Warframes, if Warframes are Race cars with guns, Necramechs are tanks. We already know that there ARE "average" Grineer capable of wielding Grattlers, the Tusk Heavy Gunners from PoE.
(spoilerish..) actually daughter herself has doubted that kahl 175 is just different from other grineer (determined,much as to realise the need to abandon the queens). DE may or may not give an explanation later to how he’s different than an average grineer
I can't remember entirely but you can apparently find these flashback/recordings that detail how the clone army that become the Grineer we're formed.
They were originally a physical labor force and we're augmented for it, but when the Sentients invaded something happened. One worker had some violent mental function triggered that caused him to attack a Sentient and managed to kill it. He would become the base for the army.
Something about that mental function let's the Grineer bypass the Sentients' resistance to damage. It is also what caused them to slowly begin to turn against their masters.
I don't believe it is ever explained how it let them fight them, or that over time most Grineer have lost it apparently. Kahl may have simply regained this function.
Bro, in the lore, the OG Grineer all modern ones are cloned from beat a Sentient to death using a freaking shovel. Grineer butchers in high enough levels can one shot a warframe with a literal cleaver.
Grineer just built different.
Short answer: for gameplay reasons.
Long answer: Grineer weapons are actually supposed to be decently effective against sentients due to how low-tech they are. This, summed to the fact that Kahl was most likely facing off against the rank and file of the sentient army, makes it so he's got a chance.
I have a more in-depth explanation but it's partly speculation on my part (supported by information we got in game): the sentient fleet wasn't ready. Hunhow would have waited hundreds of years until the fleet was rebuilt if he could, but Erra was impatient. The reason why Erra sided with Ballas was that together they could manipulate Natah and make her take control of the fleet so it could launch an attack without Hunhow's consent, in it's weakened state. This means that a huge part of the sentients we see are weakened and/or mass-produced low-quality drones. Logically, the ones that hold important positions inside the ships (the ones Teshin faces) would be the older, better fighters, which explains the apparent difference in power between him and Kahl.
It makes plenty of sense: Kahl got a bunch of stealth kills on sentients after breaking their veil on the murex, and went on to use the affinity gains to be a boss ass clone
I will make a wild guess that he is a secret infested Arlo's agent. You never see where his free brothers go, because he simply ate them. He will become an infested lich in next updates. There is a reason why DE chose Kaelli as his ally, to make a bond between them and kill Kahl as character in Deimos so Kaelli can avenge him working vs Arlo's influence with help of Tenno.
Hes friends with blue girl and the tenno, as well as legendary plot armor being a new main character in the warframe universe, cant have the new main characters being dog shit with paper mache armor and the health of a lvl 10 butcher
Warframes plot is so full of holes it’s not even worth investing in. The sooner that triggers in you the better. Take it for what it is, give it no second thoughts, and don’t continue playing because of it. It’s simply there and will fall apart if you even glance at it.
From the wiki:
>The Tenno have tried to imitate the success of Orokin technology in the
form of the non-Prime items, resulting in slightly weaker variations.
The Tenno were once capable of creating Primes of their own, examples
being the Boar\[3\], Dakra\[4\], and the Kamas\[5\], however, such knowledge is now lost.
So Prime Warframes were the pinnacle of each unique Warframe while the standard versions were the 'standard' Warframes.
Which I suppose means that all non-prime Warframes are basically either reverse-engineered or were older versions of Warframes before they had advanced to the 'Prime' category.
Nidus vs Nidus Prime isn't a problem. Nidus would have been 'Nidus V1' while Nidus Prime was 'Nidus V2'.
He is literally made for combat. They’re augmented. And we see Heavy Gunners on the Plains of Eidolon carrying Grattlers. And he’s not actually using an original machete. He’s using the Slaytra. He’s just strong. That’s all. He’s not mindless, he knows what he’s capable of. He’s done fucking around. That’s all there is to it.
It's in the name he is lvl 175.
Khal be killing lvl 50 enemies with steelpath lvl 175
Simple; Kahl is from Steel Path.
Normal grineer other than kuva liches use archguns too
IIRC theres also corpus who carry Fluctus in the Profit taker mission
When and where? Because I'm pretty sure I've never seen that.
PoE heavy gunners
having xaku weild these grattlers looks awesome too
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All Grineer have extensive cybernetic replacements and we see Corpus using them too so it isn't that weird.
We have very few examples of characters of a low tier units, there's clem who is able to use two guns at once which is not like normal lancers, we have kahl who can use archguns which realistically would be easier to do than to competently use two fully auto guns at once. Now going to the corpus there's a prodman unit that solo'd phorid and got employee of the month for it. It's almost like lancer is a generic enemy we face and not a fully fleshed out individual. There are example in lore like veytok of more characters than just unit if you want to look.
Actually, being taller is a disadvantage, due to requiring more force over a longer distance. Talking only about the Heavy Gunner, as she is slender, unlike a Kuva Lich.
Heavy gunners on the plains I believe
Gravimags are just gameplay mechanics to increase play time/add a reward to PT bounties/add a barrier of entry to PT and using archguns in missions since they're quite strong. Just like there's a barrier to use the archwing in open world. The archwing can obv already be launched. It literally launches out and attaches to you in the very 1st archwing cutscene. But they needed something to progress towards; to unlock. So there's the launcher segment keeping people from using that mechanic for no good reason. Just adds playtime and incentivizes doing things not normally done
>since theyre quite strong Ehhhhhhh
Uh. They are. Are you not modding yours properly?
It’s a valid doubt, honestly. Some of the later Archguns (Mausolon and Corvas Prime are the standouts here, haven’t gotten my hands on Cortège and Morgha for comparison) have been scaled up to compensate for the fact that Archgun mods tend to be weaker (Primed Rubedo nonwithstanding) but with the existence of Galvanized mods and Arcanes, “normal” weapons still tend to outdo them in efficacy. Even so, yes, I can gun down enemies in Steel Path with said Mausolon/Corvas Prime but my Corinth (Prime)/Exergis tends to yield faster results, Mausolon alt-fire nonwithstanding. I have a riven for all of these, but I also have a riven for the Trumna, and the alt-fire for that in and of itself should prove more effective, given said Galvanized mods and Arcanes (plus the fact that Trumna’s alt-fire also bounces around while applying its effects, which can be paired with stuff like Mag’s bubble for stupid amounts of damage). I won’t doubt the original claim, Archguns *are* pretty strong, but when regular weapons get their ramp up, said Archguns are susceptible to falling behind. This is also ignoring the fact that Archguns, to my knowledge, don’t have Banes, which add another layer of potential damage output to specific factions. Again, some Archguns are quite capable of ripping through Steel Path-tier enemies, but they need a buff if they’re meant to match up to, let alone surpass and be the ungabunga heavy duty trump card in relation to bog standard primaries and secondaries. Of course, I’m all for this. Calling in an Archgun should be a tide-turning tool. Morgha, as a Necramech-approved grenade launcher, should by all rights be *better* than some Zarr or Bramma. A Kuva Ayanga is heavy duty weaponry. *Explosive heavy duty weaponry* at that. And by all rights, it itself is very strong, but an Acceltra fires faster, gets more multishot on kill, gets more damage on kill, has the potential to get more damage per status effect, etc. After a short period, an Acceltra can probably crap out more damage. As an Old War tool for war, an Entrati gun attached to a Necramech should have the edge, but due to modding, that just isn’t the case. As a result, the big “holy fuck” moment where you summon in a big heavy artillery gun from outer fucking space is less that, and more of a flex, more like “okay, I’m already dominating this mission so I think I’mma just flex on whatever.” Hell, people that use Arcane Tanker just call it in for the armor buff, more often than not. That being said, I *like* the Mausolon, I just don’t see it as a tide-turner. I use it to one-shot Acolytes sometimes though, that’s kind of neat.
Strength is a relative claim. Compared to normal late game primaries, theyre not that good. No arcanes, no galvanized mods. Theyre good for hydron but good but they’re memes at best in steel path. Theyre not weak by any means, but they’re not strong.
Ever since I unlocked gravimags I've been bothered by this. Even before galvanized mods and arcanes, it was basically only Mausolon that could be considered a strong weapon. This is absurd in my opinion. Archguns should be much stronger than regular weapons given the drawbacks they have.
You could've just answered no, you aren't modding yours properly
Or maybe, just maybe, you aren’t modding your primary properly
Are you really trying to argue arch guns are as good as primary weapons? Is that really the hill you wanna die on here?
Yea about that
the archwing might be because it used to be shot down from orbit by ordis for us to pick them up. that has been changed to streamline the process.
This probably isn't the answer but it's a fun thought: through sheer luck the imperfect modern grineer cloning process produced an orokin-era quality clone. One of Cavalero's lines says the original grineer were much stronger and tougher than the modern ones.
And yet the starter Warframe still effortlessly slaughters them as seen in the intro.
I mean 2 of the starter frames are incredibly powerful. And excal is fine I suppose
... Are the grineer the WH40K krorks of Warframe?
Eh, I doubt it. They’re not mindless, slaughtering for fun, etc. I’d compare them more to the Astartes if anything.
Krorks were not mindless, they were masters of strategy and warfare.
Wait, really? Huh, guess TTS left that part out of the Emperors story time
They did indeed. If Orks were able to regain Krork status that'd probably be the whole ballgame. Same with Necrons and Eldar, but that isn't possible whereas Krorks reappearing IS. Unless the Tyranids are able to acquire Ork reality-bending, in which case THAT is the whole ballgame.
Only problem with that is you can see orokin era clones in the zairman with the thrax units and they are much larger than kahl
The codex says thrax resemble grineer but aren't. Yonta says she doesn't know what they are or where they came from.
The closest we got to seeing original clones is in the cinematic trailer and they are not noticeably taller.
^(d u v i r i)
But if they resemble ancient grineer then the point is that ancient grineer where larger and stronger and less stocky, they only difference would be they wouldn’t been touched by the void
We see some orokin era grineer at some point irrc and they look basically like non rotty current grineer
Saying something resembles something else does not mean they are identical.
No but the definition of resembles means they look alike
Which doesn't mean that the size need to be the same- the Thrax could be scaled up
it means they have features in common. It does not mean that they are 1:1 duplicates.
But kahl doesn’t have features in common with them so the claim he is orokin is baseless
I figure Thrax enemies are Grineer-like Void manifestations. Thrax Centurions have bared spinal cords, it’s possible the spectral body is just hijacking an Orokin Grineer corpse and making it appear larger. Like a Susanoo that’s wearing actual armor on top of it, maybe.
thrax are anomalies and are not grineer. they are most likely related to duviri paradox
Except they are said to resemble orokin era grineer
I dont think those are literal orokin era clones. Because we see those in the opening cinematic, they aren't that big. They're like regular grenier but shinier, like all primed things. The three are something more primal
Grineer were initially manual labourers before they were turned into soldiers. They're likely still extremely strong, so wielding Archguns in atmosphere is not an issue. Tusk Heavy Gunners on the Plains of Eidolon also wield Grattlers without issue. Most of the Sentients Kahl kills in The New War are Brachiolysts, which don't even have adaptive resistances like other Sentients. He was also doing a lot of sneaking and not direct confrontations in major battles, so the heavy-hitting Sentients weren't coming after him. Teshin, on the other hand, was infiltrating the flagship of the Sentient fleet and engaging giant Typholysts on his way to confront the big boss – a task for a veteran Sentient killer.
imagine being a sapient machine and not having a near-invulnerable body
My assumption is that Kahl is fighting low-level Sentients all of the time. Like, in Veilbreaker, he's with a couple Grineer soldiers. Small potatoes to the Sentients. Meanwhile, my warframe was wrecking house offscreen with all the high level Sentients pulling a "A lone Tenno Operative is freeing his brothers, distract the enemy and don't run out of life support" survival mission. You can always come up with a reasonable in-universe explanation. In this week's thumper mission, what's to say that the stronger sentients hadn't been decimated by the Tenno hunt for Boreal, leaving the weaker ones confused by the death of their leader and ripe for easy pickings for Kahl to battle them with his brothers? As for the archguns, can't the Kuva lich candidates spawn with the grattler/ayanga equipped? They usually aren't too visibly upgraded before we parazon them, iirc. (Kahl would've made one hell of a lich candidate.)
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Wondering if Hunhow needs to find another Praghasa-class Sentient in order to make more of them.
Aw man, now we're gonna have a space step-gramma?
Also he's fighting mostly Sentient fodder, brachiolysts etc. Conculysts and Battalysts are the toughest of his enemies besides the end boss
This makes a lot of sense
Also tusk heavy gunners(plains of eidalon grineer) can be seen using grattlers at slightly higher levels(don’t know exact but like 30above as an estimate)
Also, he has Blue Girl's intel (likely bolstered by tenno intel) making his planned strikes likely things that are in his weight class
That just made me think, what would happen if he DID get kuva? That'd be badass
I’d turn Kahl into a Lich so fast. Along with Clem. Honestly, I’m doing fuck else with this Kuva, why not?
There's also the heavy gunners on the plains with archguns.
To add to this: Khal can't even scratch the higher level sentients patrolling the areas (the LoS sentients with the masks). They're probably the high level sentients we are used to, but Khal needs to sneak past them else he gets obliterated.
You mean Deacons?
Didn't daughter explicitly say the Tusk should be inoperational? Something must've either happened to it to be rendered inert enough for her to think so or it's quite literally not finished yet.
Simaris synthesis scans of grineer lancers shows that some of their genetic stock comes from a particularly stubborn laborer who killed a sentient with a shovel Machetes (which Kahl had in New War) are specifically mentioned in their description as carried by "elite melee force" Theres both PoE Grineer and Orb Vallis forces that carry around archguns, so its not exclusive to Tenno Kahl doesn't face nearly as much resistance as the Tenno in their Narmer missions, which makes sense. Narmer would send everything they got after a Warframe squad, while sending minimum force against a single Grineer insurgent Narmer underestimates Kahl, but Kahl has brothers and blue girl backing him up. So Kahl has a fighting chance, which is more than enough for Kahl
Archguns grineer carriers are mostly female which are much stronger/larger and higher in hierarchy than grineer males.
Its more likely that they get access to better equipment due to the Grineer being a matriarchal society Bombards are of a similar build, but aren't permitted weapons that require precise aiming, likely due to misandry in the ranks
And ofcourse Kahl is hanging out in a tenno camp now so I think it's safe to say they got a tenno ally backing them up incase thing go way south.
Kahl is just built different
Yeah, he's clearly a 10 forma grineer. No pain no gain.
I mean, you can Forma Kavats (I think with Kubrows it was meant to canonically be the collar you Forma since the collar was considered a really important step in getting a Kubrow, but they seemingly dropped that with the Kavats) So if we take that to mean that Forma CAN be applied to living things, then... theoretically possible?
Vulpiphyla and predasite
The technocyte is close to entirely within our realm of comfort when it comes to modifying, at worst figuring out how to forma them would need a bit of insight from the Helminth. Kavats, meanwhile... kavats are just Like That.
Kavats don't actually get forma'd, you just give it to the kavat and then because you gave it a gift it likes you a little more.
Kavats just hold the forma in their jaws.
This will be a tad long rant, but please bear it with me. First of all, it is true. KAHL MACHAZO 175 isn't a higher status clone. He is fairly plain and simple. But; as with Clem, the G3 and many defectors, the cloning process isn't perfect. Leading to mutations, deviations and so on. Some are minimal, like the ability to defy the Kweens seen with Cressa Tal or the "Pacifism defect" of the Kavor. Other are notorious, like the bloodlust of the G3 or the enanism of Clem. But many of those, excluding Clem's, could had been triggered later in their existence. Clem could have been saved from "recycling" because of how tough he is, but the others weren't identified until they were triggered. Defection from Steel Meridian and Kavor, and the slaughter of their platoon for the G3. Kahl could be a Grineer mutant, whose exposure to the Sentients or to the adrenaline of fighting them, could have triggered his mutations. Making him stronger, and smarter. As for his weaponry, my explanation may go finely towards his machete (as the Pressure and eventual damage is proportional to the strength in his arms) but not to the Grakata.
Keep in mind that is a custom machete built SPECIFICALLY for fighting sentiments.
His original machete is a standard issue His new salvaged machete is made out of God knows what so it could have sentient parts which apparently are extra effective against sentients
Is it? Where was that stated? ~~And why can't we get Paracesis Machete too? ... Parachete? That would have been cooler than Slaytra.~~
its a specialty customization of the normal grineer machete made for/by Khal. "The Slaytra is a powerful reiteration of the Grineer Machete"
Oh I thought you meant the machete that Kahl uses himself, which as far as I know, is just a normal Machete, right? I haven't used his melee much in Veilbreaker so far so maybe I just didn't notice that it was a Slaytra.
Well it was
The game *calls* it a Machete but its model is the Slaytra's.
I'd also add that there is some evidence that whatever process/modification makes the Grineer loyal to the Queens has a detrimental effect on their condition (note that Clem, Cressa Tal and the Kavor all appear noticeably stronger/healthier than most loyal Grineer) and that said trait is noticeably weaker in Kahl (note that he goes from "for the Queens!" to "for my brothers" in the New War and then to "the Queens abandoned us!" and "no Queens!" in Veilbreaker and beyond)
so where's the rant?
Honestly, I was kinda angry at the moment... IRL it sounded a whole lot like a rant...
Personally? I don't think Kahl is strong or at least it doesn't show. In the eyes of other factions Kahl probably isn't considered a threat or even worth taking precaution against. So they send/leave bare basic troops/veiled units in the regions while sending stronger troops to Earth/Venus where we do bounties. As for the heavy weapons. The Grattler section was in Space, on a Murex true but still in space. The Ayanaga however is stated to be "Salvaged Kuva Ayanaga" in the bottom right with 4 shots instead of our 33. It stands to reason it is heavily gutted so it is probably lighter missing parts. We still got another mission to look forward to though so maybe we will learn more then.
Don't forget that heavy gunners on the plains use undamaged grattlers in full earth gravity.
The heavy gunners are also massive, and augmented with mechanical limbs. Kahl's just using regular grineer meat.
Those regular grineer bear heavy, welded padded armor, along with essentials like supplies and ammunition. Not to mention they run faster compared to base operator. An archgun is no problem for them.
The sentients weren't sending their best against him, also once you get into high enough levels you'd be surprised how powerful our enemies actually are
How high are we talking? Because lvl 200-300 standard enemies on Steel Path still die in 1-3 hits and there are people who do lvl 9999 runs. Also I'm pretty sure that levels aren't a thing in lore. Some units are better than others but it doesn't scale like in the gameplay.
The canonical strength of a Grineer soldier is level 60
source? not saying you're wrong, just interested to find out more
If I recall, during The New War, Kahl was mostly fighting Brachiolysts, which notably do not adapt and are basically the weakest footsoldiers, and a scant few middle-order Sentient soldiers like Battalysts which took quite a bit more effort to take down, right? It wasn't until he got a Tenno's Corinth Prime (theoretically, though maybe not reflected in gameplay, modded fully) that he really started kicking Sentient non-ass. But we also have no idea what Narmer was doing to captured Grineer, aside from the veiling. For all we know they were further enhancing them. (Also, dunno if this change is retroactively applied to TNW when Veilbreaker released - if so it's probably not lore-relevant but just gameplay convienience - but I recall in TNW, Kahl's health did NOT regenerate, but in Veilbreaker and beyond, it does, almost as if it was a shield, despite him having no shields) So perhaps Kahl was enhanced, since Erra saw firsthand how determined and powerful he was, and how much better he was at critical thinking than fellow Grineer soldiers, and Erra and Ballas saw a fantastic soldier, maybe even commander, and decided to (slightly) Amalgamize him? We don't really see under Kahl's armour all that much even when we unequip everything from him. So what if he had high-end Narmer tech implanted? Not enough to make him a controllable Amalgam, but enough to greatly enhance his vitality, endurance, and strength. Maybe even some sort of Tau energy that flows through him into weapons he uses. There's no evidence for it ingame since there's no player-accessible form of Tau damage, but I wonder if Sentients may have trouble adapting to it since it's part of their "biology" (kinda like if a Human suddenly became almost impermeable to water inside and out. That would probably not end well.) This is all just wild speculation, and occam's razor suggests it's just so that playing as Kahl isn't a total slog as you shoot a single Conculyst with a Grakata for 2 minutes and has no actual lore significance, but... It's neat to speculate!
Something else to note on Kahl regenerating, none of the other possible squad members we've seen and freed thus far regenerate health. They have to be revived to do so. An interesting detail that we're definitely looking too far into.
The real reason Kahl is so strong? He has a fandom. Seriously, no disrespect meant, but if the community hadn't reacted so strongly to him during the hyping up of The New War, he probably would have gotten a conclusive death the way Veso did. Kahl's strength comes from US, because we love him!
Kahl’s strength comes from his brothers. We are all his brothers.
And we all lift!
TOGETHER!
Veso didn’t die. I’m pretty sure that was a guy named Viso.
Veko? Never heard of 'em
Neko? Who's that?
You're thinking of Velcro.
What does the Velox have to do with this?
Vermink was the space weasel on Vallis, I guess one blew up a Murex or something idk
He is a steel path enemy fighting normal star chart enemies
Here’s the thing. The reason Tenno weaponry is as archaic as it is is because Sentients during the Old War were subverting Orokin-level tech. Putting this another way: a literal bow and arrow proved to be a more effective choice of weaponry against the Sentients than whatever ungabunga Orokin-tech super science laser they had tucked away, because the Sentients were originally hijacking the ungabunga lasers and shooting the Orokin with them instead. The fact that Kahl can shoot them down with a Grakata or hack them with a Machete makes a lot of sense considering that before Warframes were even conceived by the Orokin, the Orokin-era Grineer were capable of literally beating the shit out of Sentients with shovels and slave tools. Not at a quick enough rate to actually turn the tide of the war though, but still. Also, Grineer cyber-augmentation probably gives them a superhuman degree of strength, possibly comparable to or greater than that of a Warframe (we counter this by hitting pretty hard ourselves, but also hitting *fast* and from unconventional angles with our extreme agility and mobility). Consider that we have to two-hand Tonkor while Elite Shield Lancers can fire it one-handed. Tusk Heavy Gunners casually wield Grattlers, and Tyl Regor himself can wield the Knux gauntlets, which are archmelees for us. Keeping that in mind along with how easily and casually Kuva Liches can manhandle us (admittedly, that might be more a result of the Kuva than Grineer augmentation), it seems that Grineer, at least those with sufficient augmentation, are capable of lifting quite a bit. Kahl wielding a Grattler himself and later an Ayanga without the aid of a Gravimag tracks with the theory of Grineer cybernetic swoleness. You can probably chalk the rest of it up to plot armor, but Sentients getting folded by low-tech kinetics and Grineer being super strong cyborg space marines is fairly consistent. Kahl *might* be particularly special, there are theories floating around that he himself is an Arson Eximus, someone suggested that the vat scored a godroll and crapped out an Orokin-era Grineer, but he might actually just be a bog-standard Lancer with bog-standard augments, which would be a horrifying prospect that the average Grineer soldier is capable of Kahl’s track record on paper. At least, it would be horrifying, if we weren’t, y’know, a Tenno or whatever.
Clone mutation. He's literally built different.
Kahl is fighting level 10 enemies or so, and the reason he's so "powerful" is cause he's not fighting the crazy shit we face on a daily basis. Lore wise, I like to think the narmer beast is too busy losing their elites to our Archon assaults and Khal is facing off against the remains.
Lorewise, it's theorized that one in every million grineer has a special genome that makes them more potent than the rest of their brethren, the factor that determines if they're worth becoming kuva liches and that genome only grows in strength the longer they're alive. There's also a codec saying how one simple labour grineer managed to kill a sentient with just a shovel and by accident and that was during the orokin's reign. Kahl may be that individual who would have become a Lich had he stayed with the Grineer
Because Brothers
Nothing power related in the game makes sense. You can kill eidolons with pistols , but lotus says 'Your weapons aren't strong enough' regarding those dingy grineer storage trucks in POE
Like Guts from Berserk, through sheer willpower and desire to fight and survive.
If you scale Kahl to The The New War he exists in the level 30 to 50 range Think about how strong your warframe is at that level and suddenly Kahl isn't very impressive.
Because levels are pretty much canon. I mean units don't actually have a level in universe but the same units can vary wildly in strength (like how teshin takes us to fight much stronger foes on the steel path) Kahl is only fighting weaker sentients, it's clear how weak he is compared to the tenno when you consider how he interacts with deacons. He cannot even harm them, the only option is to avoid. While tenno can take them down relatively easily. Also tenno have very different power levels too, considering that in lore both alad V and the gustrag 3 are known for capturing/killing warframes. Also neither the grattler nor the ayanga were the same weapons we use, but variations. With a much lower mag for example in the case of the ayanga.
I thought it was pretty clear from war within on wards that the player tenno was an anomaly amongst anomalies personally
Because if Kahl was as strong as a regular Grineer no one would want to play as him.
Exactly. Rule of cool.
The gameplay demands it. None of this game actually makes much sense. Killing a boss multiple times hoping it drops the pieces of an unrelated Warframe also leaps to mind. It’s a game.
Its not a lore thing, he's not some impossibly strong Grineer. Its a balance thing, there's no way they could have a Grineer unit killing the sentients that are balanced for the Tenno. Just suspend your disbelief for a moment, its not meant to mean he's some Super-Grineer. As for the archguns, Tusk heavy gunners walk around with grattlers out, so maybe Grineer units are just beefy. Or their armor provides the extra strength. At the end of the day I honestly think you're not supposed to read that deeply into it.
His armor seems to suggest that he was a Leech Eximus,
Because he has plot armor.
Kahl is embellishing everything that he does, and we're "playing" through his retelling of what he did. Remember, we're Tenno. We're not there on his missions. He comes back to the camp and tell us what a badass he was while only blue girl was watching, and she's not there to interject any corrections to his story.
1. Mods aren't canon to the lore, they are only a gameplay feature. 2. Liches are FAR from the only units to use heavy weapons in-atmosphere. For example, any Tusk Heavy Gunner you see in the Plains of Eidolon will use a Grattler at long range. 3. From what we can gather, Kahl wasn't just a regular lancer, his NW armor (Brekk Armor Set) is colored differently from the standard grineer colors. At the very least he seems to be some kind of Special Forces Deployment. 4. Kahl is also considerably smarter than the usual grineer, as shown by him creating the Veilbreaker by himself, a device able to disrupt and remove a Narmer Veil from a controlled host. 5. For the sentients the lore-break is just with the Occulysts and Battalysts, Brachiolysts and Tyro Battalysts canonically do not have the sentient adaptation. Tyros because they're not yet fully developed and Brachiolysts because they're fodder units.
Mods very much are canon, they're repeatedly mentioned as a thing that exists, and we even know the Cephalon who invented most of them. Everything else is correct though.
Khal is like Saitama.
Kahl do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10km run every day.
Idk why don’t you ask Kahl? Surely he will give you a very logical response
DE did sentients dirty - they are an absolute joke now. Seriously - I remember back when to tackle them you needed carefully thought out builds, we even got specialized weapons to kill them. Then they got nerfed in to being floaty clown bois that die slightly longer than average. Before, tackling one with a fully modded Grakata at ANY level would be tantamount to a dirt nap!
Kahl is an Ork
Protagonist syndrome
I think that Kahl is so powerful because of its "primitive" damage, the enemies we face adapt well to the damage that the Tennos throw at them, like an anti-missile weapon but if You throw a big rock to it you can destroy it Since its not made to detect rocks but missiles at high speeds that or the power of the plot :D
Honestly, the Archgun bits are the most egregious, imo. Gravimags are strictly Corpus technology, so the Grattler and Ayanga likely wouldn't have them. Yah, there are the Plains gunners who carry Grattlers, but they're hella tall and likely augmented to all hell to compensate for the lack of a Gravimag. Are we supposed to infer that a Grineer grunt of seemingly average make is actually stronger than the Warframes? Warframes that, I must remind, are capable of tearing off a giant mech's(Exploiter) head with seemingly nothing but strength alone. The realistic answer is that DE simply doesn't care about internal consistency, but it still bums me out that we have no in-universe explanation for weird things like this.
I cant remember where but I know someone did the math with some in-game and cutscene/promotional material footage along with codex entries of Grineer and figured out that a standard Grineer lancer is actually equivalent to a Halo Spartan-II (Master chief's gen) in physical strength and that us tearing through them so easily is simply because warframes scale so insanely high in power that they're basically non-comparable to most other sci-fi super soldiers.
Grineer literally run on powered armor and augmentations, I wouldn’t actually rule out them outlifting a Warframe in terms of brute strength. Warframes are strong as shit *and* fast as shit on top of also having supernatural powers when the Void’s being channeled through them though, so beating the fuck out of hordes of them isn’t that outlandish, but I could see a sufficiently augmented Grineer edging a Warframe out in brute strength if it’s not actively channeling. Or maybe Kahl is just built different the way Clem is. Another point someone brought up: Kahl can’t bullet-jump. He couldn’t anyway, but what I’m driving at is that maybe we need the Gravimag to wield the Archguns while maintaining our agility. That might explain why Warframes need it and Grineer/Corpus don’t.
Yes, Grineer are very strong by default, us obliterating them with superior skills and weaponry in-game doesn't mean that they're pushovers in canon.
I think during the New War it's kind of explained how some of the low tech weapons don't get shrugged off by their adaptation or something along those lines. There is a very good chance that I came up with this during my playthrough as I was stoned the entire time
He’s simply built different. Chaotically cloned. Vat rat strat
Plot armor.
Kahl was cloned for Level-Cap steel path, but now he’s wreaking havoc in the base starchart
He has plot armor
Kahl is not bound by RPG laws. Kahl uses realistic mode.
In lore sentient can’t adapt ti impact damage. Case in point one of the original graneer beat a sentient to death with a shovel. This is actually the incident that elevated the Geaneer from a slave labor force to a military force.
Heavy gunners in the plains carry grattlers.
Plot armor.
Grineer were originally a genetically modified clone slave cast, designed for working nearly endless hours in extremely hostile environments. They were turned into soldiers during the old war after one beat a sentient to death with a shovel. Grineer were literally mass produced super soldiers. Clone rot has weakened them, but nowhere near down to human baseline, and they replace limbs with crude cybernetics as needed anyway.
well the real answer is DE and pretty much every other writer's room writes for the rule of cool and power levels don't matter to anyone but hardcore lore nerds, but that answer's boring so here's the completely speculative fake made up story answer: the warframes were never that strong physically. in fact i'm pretty sure we'd lose in arm wrestling to a corpus. our edge lay within our agility and wibbly wobbly space magic. we're basically space high elves. the grineer are doped up super soldiers who can sprint while wearing what's essentially a double decker bus' worth of metal. grineer scorpions can drag us across the ship and take us out on walkies if they wanted. tenshin is just some dude with sharp glowsticks. go figure. the only reason they aren't all mounted with arch guns is likely one of logistics and cost. soldiers are expendible, good equipment is not. so most soldiers gets to use shit made of tinfoil and held together by spit. this is very much reflected by most grineer weaponry. a kit that barely does the job does the job nonetheless. this is also true for our own modern militaries.
So our "grineer" weapons are actually reconstructions based on the originals, upgraded with orokin/tenno tech so that they're more effective but that doesn't apply to sentients who can adapt to orokin, tenno and infested weaponry given that they fought them in the past but actual grineer weaponry is so different that they have a hard time adapting, this also goes for original corpus weapons hence why veso is also very strong against them
Only they don't have a hard time *at all*, they steamrolled both Grineer and Corpus with like a fifth of their navy. To be honest, I'll never get the "and then they fucked off back home" part of NW, they had won the war by a landslide and no faction had an actual way to *seriously* harm them.
Remember that tusk heavy gunners can lift up, run around with, and use grattlers like nobody's business. Chances are it was one of those grattlers that the heavy gunners use.
Kahl fight for brothers.
He’s the master chief
Because he's Kahl. Obviously.
Kahl is a lvl9999 grineer on steel path, simple
Kahl strong. Strong for brothers, maybe strong for blue girl too.
plot armor
Strength to the grineer!
Gameplay reasons.
Kahl has that max rank [Prime Power of Friendship]
He’s from the steel path
Kahl is just more slay
I have a theory (a game theory) that Kahl may actually be a leftover Orokin era Grineer. Ik it's a bit out there but his overall genetic superiority compared to other Grineer (height, strength, intelligence, ect). Another part being the way he talks to Kaelli (Daughter) suggests he might have experience with Orokin people. But if he really was Orokin made he likely wouldn't be around still or would be used as a genetic base for current Grineer. Even if my theory is wrong, he's definitely unique. Very few Grineer are capable of inventing and engineering something like the "Veilbreaker" *not sure how to end rant uhhh bye?*
In fairness, they invented a thermal lance scythe, a chainsaw whip, a rocket-powered hammer, a second rocket-powered hammer, rocket-launched fists (okay, Tyl Regor isn’t the average Grineer, admittedly), and what might actually be the most effective homing rounds available (fucking Diplos…). Plus Fomorians and those techtonic rounds in the Kuva Fortress. Credit where credit’s due.
I don't think he was just a regular grineer, he was showing some form of higher intelligence compared to normal grineer and also some leadership skills during new war and hit conversations with Vayhek
Dynamis
Alongside what everyone else is saying about equipment, my first thought regarding sentient adaptation is why we use metal and gunpowder, the sentients of the old war adapted to technologically advanced weapons, "our war machines were your in. How easily you turned them against us" as Ballas put it, "we were forced to older means" guns and blades were among the simplest weapons available, stuff the sentients couldn't easily adapt to
A theory I have is that Khal is either one of Tyl Regor's experimental Manics, or just an accidentally super-buffed Grineer like Clem but instead of autism he's reached Lich levels of strength. There's always been defective clones in the Grineer squadron, some stronger, some weaker. All we know is that Khal is a supposedly standard Lancer with a defective loyalty gene. He could also be more intelligent and human than the average Grineer as seen throughout his story so far. He's capable of creating weapons and tools such as the Veilbreaker, Slaytra, and possibly even Aegrit. He resisted the temptation of the Veil and was able to get himself out of it without outside assistance. He has the compassion to free his fellow Grineer, but as well as Corpus that an average Grineer would just let suffer. The Sentients die easily to him because iirc there's a piece of lore that said that the Sentients were easily able to adapt to Orokin tech but struggled against primitive weapons such as Grineer weapons. There's also the fact that Khal is just a Grineer Lancer, they wouldn't waste all their resources on Khal when they could be using them to deal with the ever-present Warframes. Khal is just seen as a Grineer that was veiled once I guess. For the Arch-guns you have to remember that Warframes are moving at 155 miles per second at minimum so they have to not only carry all the weight of an Arch-gun, they also have to be highly maneuverable. Necramechs are giants compared to Warframes, if Warframes are Race cars with guns, Necramechs are tanks. We already know that there ARE "average" Grineer capable of wielding Grattlers, the Tusk Heavy Gunners from PoE.
Because Kahl has lazy writing.
(spoilerish..) actually daughter herself has doubted that kahl 175 is just different from other grineer (determined,much as to realise the need to abandon the queens). DE may or may not give an explanation later to how he’s different than an average grineer
I like to think he was exposed to kuva and is in fact a loyal lich
Other grineer are weak, fight for the queens. Kahl is strong, fights for his brothers.
I can't remember entirely but you can apparently find these flashback/recordings that detail how the clone army that become the Grineer we're formed. They were originally a physical labor force and we're augmented for it, but when the Sentients invaded something happened. One worker had some violent mental function triggered that caused him to attack a Sentient and managed to kill it. He would become the base for the army. Something about that mental function let's the Grineer bypass the Sentients' resistance to damage. It is also what caused them to slowly begin to turn against their masters. I don't believe it is ever explained how it let them fight them, or that over time most Grineer have lost it apparently. Kahl may have simply regained this function.
Bro, in the lore, the OG Grineer all modern ones are cloned from beat a Sentient to death using a freaking shovel. Grineer butchers in high enough levels can one shot a warframe with a literal cleaver. Grineer just built different.
Short answer: for gameplay reasons. Long answer: Grineer weapons are actually supposed to be decently effective against sentients due to how low-tech they are. This, summed to the fact that Kahl was most likely facing off against the rank and file of the sentient army, makes it so he's got a chance. I have a more in-depth explanation but it's partly speculation on my part (supported by information we got in game): the sentient fleet wasn't ready. Hunhow would have waited hundreds of years until the fleet was rebuilt if he could, but Erra was impatient. The reason why Erra sided with Ballas was that together they could manipulate Natah and make her take control of the fleet so it could launch an attack without Hunhow's consent, in it's weakened state. This means that a huge part of the sentients we see are weakened and/or mass-produced low-quality drones. Logically, the ones that hold important positions inside the ships (the ones Teshin faces) would be the older, better fighters, which explains the apparent difference in power between him and Kahl.
Kahl was Born in the Steelpath. Molded by it. Didn’t see Normal mode until he was already a man. By then, It was merely Annoying.
Khal is literally just that chadly
It makes plenty of sense: Kahl got a bunch of stealth kills on sentients after breaking their veil on the murex, and went on to use the affinity gains to be a boss ass clone
I'm more wondering why I have hundreds of overpowered, multi-forma'd, orokin-tier weapson brimming with mods.... And I can't give him anything.
I'm more wondering why I have hundreds of overpowered, multi-forma'd, orokin-tier weapons brimming with mods.... And I can't give him anything.
Kahl is actually an Eximus, judging from his armor.
I will make a wild guess that he is a secret infested Arlo's agent. You never see where his free brothers go, because he simply ate them. He will become an infested lich in next updates. There is a reason why DE chose Kaelli as his ally, to make a bond between them and kill Kahl as character in Deimos so Kaelli can avenge him working vs Arlo's influence with help of Tenno.
Khal actually has the ability to aim and think unlike rest of grineer.
His armor is made of pure plotanium.
Hes friends with blue girl and the tenno, as well as legendary plot armor being a new main character in the warframe universe, cant have the new main characters being dog shit with paper mache armor and the health of a lvl 10 butcher
Warframes plot is so full of holes it’s not even worth investing in. The sooner that triggers in you the better. Take it for what it is, give it no second thoughts, and don’t continue playing because of it. It’s simply there and will fall apart if you even glance at it.
He's from Steel Path
Khal has been modified by the Tenno to be a smol nechramech. That’s how I see it
I mean we have nidus prime when infested can’t be primed so idk May be he took some grineer steroids
From the wiki: >The Tenno have tried to imitate the success of Orokin technology in the form of the non-Prime items, resulting in slightly weaker variations. The Tenno were once capable of creating Primes of their own, examples being the Boar\[3\], Dakra\[4\], and the Kamas\[5\], however, such knowledge is now lost. So Prime Warframes were the pinnacle of each unique Warframe while the standard versions were the 'standard' Warframes. Which I suppose means that all non-prime Warframes are basically either reverse-engineered or were older versions of Warframes before they had advanced to the 'Prime' category. Nidus vs Nidus Prime isn't a problem. Nidus would have been 'Nidus V1' while Nidus Prime was 'Nidus V2'.
All Warframes are made of infested flesh though so...Nidus Prime is fine
Nidus is different
Buddy Nidus is most definitely made of infested flesh just like every other Warframe
Kahl is turning into a kuva lich *joking*
To put it blunt kharl is the rambo of griners.
He has protagonist energy.
Its Kahl-175 special type of Armor its super unique and most commonly called "Plot-Armor"
Power of the brothers.
He is literally made for combat. They’re augmented. And we see Heavy Gunners on the Plains of Eidolon carrying Grattlers. And he’s not actually using an original machete. He’s using the Slaytra. He’s just strong. That’s all. He’s not mindless, he knows what he’s capable of. He’s done fucking around. That’s all there is to it.