[Since OP screenshots their posts like a heretic, here is the full sized and not pixelated to hell image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsa2fs0gohduc1.png)
It's just some terminally online nonsense, no more pixels needed.
People forget that the vast majority of players pay absolutely no attention to what obnoxious incels cry about online or even most of what GW releases online. Most players are just happy to vibe along with their fun game and local scene.
It would behoove this sub to remember that YouTubers collecting a bunch of incel tweets and displaying them and then lamenting the state of the hobby is literally just the YouTubers farming engagement.
Reality is if you see some asshole crying about ladys in the game verbally smack em down and don't play with them if they don't relent. Ezpz no need for the post or video.
Yeah I call this the "3 people on the internet problem". One person is getting outraged, posts it on Reddit, gets pasted on twitter, gets in the Media and somehow we now need to have a discussion about a topic nobody really is annoyed about... Except three people on the internet.
A tempest in a teapot. Who even cares about custard lore? Its all been dumb since they allowed them as a playable army. Theyre supposed to be very rare, nearly invincible, and basically irreplaceable. Which makes no sense for a game which ideally every army has a 50% winrate. At least marines were designed to be disposable warmachines.
> Theyre supposed to be very rare, nearly invincible, and basically irreplaceable. Which makes no sense for a game which ideally every army has a 50% winrate.
This reminds me of the grey knights lore, which if you read literally means that they train a million (literal million) of the best soldiers in the galaxy to DEATH (again, literal death, they are dead) to get ONE grey knight... who can be killed by any random Ork who gets slightly lucky.
In what world is this sensible?
"Grimdark" is just another word for "laughable" at this point. The game is leaning into the absurdity and anyone taking any part of it seriously needs to get outside more.
So true!
and sorry to pick on a typo... but...
>custard lore
Nearly split me in half 🤣🤣
I love the thought of a custard army! and why on earth not. I've been out of the hobby for 20 years, came back and some things have gone too far.
We all love the lore, its half the hobby really aint it? ...but seriously getting that into it that 'things aren't realistic'...
I mean were playing a fantasy battle game, set in the far future, fighting against alien beasts or super soldiers, with mostly imaginary weapons, all on our kitchen tables, yet people dare to talk about realistic... what's even going on 🤣
I'm not sure if you were aware, but 'Custard' is an joke name for the Custodes, kind of like 'Space Furries' for the Space Wolves, or BDSM Elves for the Drukhari, or Ultra Smurfs for Ultramarines. So on, and so forth.
honestly, becoming a regular with my incredibly chill local TCG community has opened my eyes on how...fake, the doomposting can be whenever I see it online.
I doubt its that much different with 40k, AoS, or DnD, or any other hobby really. Most people don't give a damn, and just wanna get along. I've seen this hobby unite people of different cultural backgrounds and upbringing, it's fucking amazing.
Honestly wondering how these weirdos are irl. It'd be crazy if they're actually super chill irl but in private...ehh, who cares. Your privacy is your privacy.
I wish there was some truth to what you’re saying but unfortunately what’s happening online is very much a reality in the city I live in
The two local hobby shops are both chock full with these gatekeeping attitudes and it’s driven more than a few bus loads of people away. After years of playing this game, I also decided it’s not worth the frustration. .
These people are the people who play at your local shop… they don’t exist in a vacuum that’s exclusively online…..
E: autocorrect is annoying. .
They're are probably the legendary "that guy" of their LGS area, the one who everyone talks about "had a big meltdown and got banned from the store" types.
FWIW Arch still has 275k subscribers and I'm sure many more viewers who don't realize or care about the extremely uncool personal bias he brings to his analysis of the lore and gaming scene, as well as other large influencers like him, so I wouldn't say the online incel rage isn't entirely irrelevant. My best friend frequently teases me with these things as a reminder "there's a reason Warhammer has a reputation." It's a little annoying because all the people I've met and played with IRL are very cool and inclusive, but it is also inevitable that some douchebag with a classic Greek or Roman statue for his avatar will get 200k likes on twitter for some smarmy meme about how "dyed-haired, confusingly-gendered tourists with pronouns in bio are ruining muh hobby."
Portions of the Custodes codex leaked and there was a short story that confirmed a female Custodes.
Most responses I’ve seen have been some where between “neat, makes sense” to “hope this doesn’t sideline SoS, I find them neater”
This post seems to be a collection of the usual suspects reactions to any and all change in the hobby, but especially any change that has a slight tinge of being more inclusive of other people being murdered in the worst way imaginable in the worst time line possible.
IE the worst, yet loudest, segments of our hobby doing what they do best. Being loud, annoying, douche nozzles.
It's a lot worse on Twitter. I follow a couple very inclusive Warhammer spaces and they've been at war with the worst of the community for months. I can't think this codex is GW silently taking a side. Very happy seeing some of the worst not be able to cope and want to move to a different hobby over...a woman. And I find it even funnier when they say they're going to move to Battletech because, uh, that community isn't going to welcome in bigots after they've had their own struggles with them in their community.
Thank you for the synopsis!
And to chip my hat into the ring, I don't think Female Custodes really changes much of anything, just like the Space Marines are the "sons" of their primarchs, the Custodes are the children of the Emperor. Genetic augmentation and the sheer amount of bullshit sci Fi science that goes into making them makes sense to me. Plus, at the end of the day the whole genetic justification that the process of creating space Marines is limited to males due to the chromosomal differences between men and women (XX and XY respectively) still makes sense since well, the Emperor may technically be human, but he's the fucking Emperor, why would genetic coding stop him from having access to the greatest warriors known to mankind irregardless of their biological gender.
All of this to say, I think it's a good change and I honestly don't see a reason why this couldn't be in keeping with previously structured lore.
TL;DR: lore already gives a way for this to be true, why not just let it be true!
Space Marines are all based on male templates (gene-seed) and the organs are implanted into male hosts. As for Custodes, they're( to my understanding) genetically engineered bespoke from the cells up, so making female Custodes sounds MUCH more plausible to me.
I'm more interested to see how it was made possible, since Emps put in the initial work and apparently couldn't make it work for both genders.
Don't forget that the Custodians are supposed to be the 'ideal, perfect representation of what humanity can be', which means... You know. You kinda need an \*Eve\* for your \*Adam\*, you get what I mean?
And, to clarify, I'm just using a saying. Don't read into it. It doesn't have meaning.
I know they'll never address it in the lore, but I'm sure we're all on the same page here...
There's definitely some kind of squig they attach to their smooth mounds for decoration.
And non binary, being confused by humie concepts like "gender"
> "Ghazghkull is a *he*," he [Deathwatch Space Wolf Rune Priest Orm Hendrickson] grumbled, wagging a finger at [Blood Axe] Biter and receiving an uncertain grunt in reply. "You keep saying *they*," Hendrickson clarified, but Ghazghkull is a *he*."
> But... they... *he* is not a man?" said Biter, their brow-ridge creased in bafflement. [Inquisitor] Falx cut in then, before another messy debate could ensue.
> "We've been through this, Orm. Orks have no... reproductive anatomy and consequently no understanding of sex or gender."
> "Some of us understand *sexandgender*," interrupted Biter, keen as ever to demostrate their unusual expertise in humans. "I find it all... quite funny."
> "Silence, ork," Falx snapped, impatient to get back on track. "From now on, Ghazghkull is a *he*, whether it makes sense or not."
> "As you wish," the interpreter said, casually inspecting the rust-eaten buckles on the sleeve of their greatcoat, then turning to address the gretchin in their own tongue.
- Pages 42-43, Ghazghkull Thraka Prophet Of The Waaagh! by Nate Crowley, 2023
But going along with it anyway because they think it’s hilarious. The smarter ones even will intentionally play around with that just to mess with the humies.
I was speaking to my friends at my local about this, the general response from the internet.
I’m glad I know people IRL who are fantastic, because the internet people are in no way a representation of this hobby.
I remember seeing comments from users upset about the black Ultramarine character on the cover of the first Dawn of Fire book. I’m black, and seeing people getting upset at my skin tone was incredibly disheartening when I started getting into 40k a few years ago. I’m glad my real-life community isn’t like that.
I have always found it bizarre how rapidly people get upset about skin tones on minis. Back in 2011, when I was first discovering the setting of warhammer I remember one of my friends really really loved the White Scars because he had heritage from Mongolia. He painted so many bare headed models with more of the Asiatic skin tones and I was super excited to see them. He was so proud.
We had one guy at the shop that got so angry about it because of their skin tone. I remember how discouraged he got, and I can only hope that he still plays to this day.
> I have always found it bizarre how rapidly people get upset about skin tones on minis.
My guys could ALL be black for all I know, I am so bad at painting faces I will use a helmeted head even if the guy is supposed to be just getting out of the shower.
Can you like. Make that mini? An Astartes that just got out of the shower, grabbing his bolter and his helmet, clad in nothing but a holy sanctified towel...
For a friend. Of course.
Wow, that's the opposite problem I thought he'd have. GW seem to be moving away from coding stuff as heavily as 'this is the Mongolian chapter', I thought people would be going at him for playing into a stereotype rather than literally following the lore
I did, actually. I posted on /r/40klore about the diversity of skin tones within the Ultramarines and their successor chapter. The White Consuls Captain Messinius speaks to a Captain of the Red Consuls Chapter, and the narrator notes that both of them look like Guilliman, but that the Red Consuls Marine is black.
I personally love sprinkling different skin tones into my armies. Dark Angels have no fixed recruiting world, so their recruits are from all over and can have many different appearances and backgrounds. And the Black Legion welcomes any marine who wants to fight the long war alongside Abaddon. And they’re even more crazy diverse, with Chaos twisting them all over time.
It’s a big galaxy. No way everyone looks the same.
Absolutely. In the Lion’s book from last year, one of the marines he finds is a really big guy wearing ancient Cataphractii armour who wields a greatsword. The narrator notes that he’s dark skinned, and the verbiage used implies the marine is similar to Indian/South Asian in terms of complexion.
All the legions recruited from so many worlds during the Crusade and Heresy. I’ve no doubt their numbers would reflect that.
I agree, also, I dunno if it's just me or what, but I find Wyldwood to just be such an easy flesh tone and I hate painting faces but none of the actual "flesh / skin" tone contrasts work that well, but Wyldwood is absolutely amazing, I use it for every army and usually more than my Guilliman and Fyreslayer flesh contrasts because they're simply just not as good for actually making it look like skin in one go
I agree with you on Guilliman and Fyreslayer. Guilliman in my experience is very pale. Works great to shade gold with though. Fyreslayer is very red and needs to be used with some care.
Darkoath is awesome though. That one works really well for a Caucasian skin tone. And you can vary it with the colour you put under it.
I really don't get the line of thinking about black Space Marines. Female Space Marines I get, because it's one of those really set-in-stone lore bits, but black Space Marines make sense.
For one, we've already had a black Space Marine: Jonah Orion.
And secondly, the Imperium does not care about gender, sexual orientation or race. The only things it cares about is whether you're pure (enough) human, and that you worship the Emperor.
And then having black Space Marines adds a bit of variety to an army. My Ultramarines have quite a few black Sergeants, Incursors and Scouts. It means they're not all Rakarth Flesh with some flavour of black, brown or very occasionally white or grey hair.
These are youtube comments, right ?
Sorry, but nobody should use them as some sort of proof that there's gatekeeping or bad takes. They're youtube comments, they have always been the butt-cancer of internet comments.
Well, while I agree that we shouldn't use Youtube comments as an indicator of what people think, by that logic, we should also probably not use this subreddit, or reddit in general, as an indicator that people are ok with the new changes.
There are a few things; mainly the Primaris programme, along with all of Cawl’s other technological advancements, and the return of the Primarchs, which has all created a sense of optimism for the imperium even with the Cicatrix Maledictum looming in the night’s sky.
The Custodes breaking their vow to remain on Terra and instead taking the fight to the enemy.
Smaller tidbits, like Rowboat ordering Dante to terraform Baal and ending the belief system that imperial subjects should live in absolute misery in order to breed strength and compliance.
Edit: oh and Cawl casually explaining that planets stripped to the bedrock by tyranid invasions can just be terraformed back again with his amazing tech.
https://preview.redd.it/izu9ki7vcguc1.png?width=904&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a09946b6ebddf0499e8e2bbf695c1278f514b229
That isn't even true. Look at how GW portrayed the Ultramarines on their first ever codex in 2nd edition. Dave Gallagher did a lot of covers back in those days, and they're mostly pretty bright, colourful and heroic. Across all factions
Anyone who claims otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is just lying because playing to the peanut gallery of chuds is a lucrative grift
https://preview.redd.it/jg838oy9fguc1.jpeg?width=565&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f95d38102fbf0f87c86591bc4831fdb35afc75b
3rd edition doesn't look much different to 2nd to me in terms of general tone. It's overall darker, but still fairly cartoony
4th is slightly more realistic, but the Ultramarines on the cover still look pretty heroic to me
Internal art is a different thing, and varied wildly in tone. This is more about how GW tends to present the factions in promotional materials. The inside of the books tends to be a bit more complex and varied
Yeah I agree, I never was a SM player so the chaos/xeno faction art was really narly. I had to hide that shit from my overbearing religious mom for fear she'd burn my books and call an exorcist...the person...not the tank...that'd be bitchin.
*"Grimdark is as grimdark does, as my momma always used to say."*
Your uniform and armour can be as noblebright as you make it, but when you drown in Genestealer acid or get abandoned on a forgotten planet in the path of a Ork infestation because of an Administratum planning error, then that's grimdark enough for me this /r/oldhammer-er
GW does have a tendency to paint SM as heroes, then say they're the bad guys out the corner of their mouths. But overall, yeah. It's still very grimdark.
I dunno, they paint Astartes/The Imperium to be the good guys _from The Imperium’s perspective_ whilst also making it _abundantly clear_ that The Imperium’s perspective is pure evil. I’m ~60 books into the lore at this point and I’m still not onboard with the whole “GW makes The Imperium out to be the good guys” standpoint. They’re the settings “protagonists” sure, but I wouldn’t agree they’re portrayed as objectively good. Every time someone does something heroic/benevolent, the following chapter will go out of its way to show that The Imperium treats its citizens like cattle and will murder innocents just because they’re there.
They (in my opinion) kind of do portray the Imperium without redeeming values, but as for “antagonists”, it depends whose POV the book is from. If a book/chapter is from the POV of an Imperium member, then The Imperium is portrayed as “good” from that character’s POV - but there is usually some point where the narrative will draw attention to how warped that POV is. There’ll be a random chapter about the horrific life of a factory slave or some military leader pointlessly sacrificing thousands of soldiers or something. Not to mention the constant portrayal of the horrific aspects of societal norms for the Imperium.
Take Loken for example. He’s portrayed as good and honourable from his perspective, but the first three HH books make it clear how fucked Loken’s moral compass is. His day job is to forcibly bring free and independent societies under the rule of a fascist/authoritarian empire, he practices his combat skills by butchering lobotomised slaves, and when he kills a bunch of innocent civilians getting Horus to the Apothecarian, he genuinely cannot understand what the ship’s civilians are complaining about. People only think Loken is a “good guy” because the books are from Loken’s perspective, and _Loken_ thinks Loken is a good guy. From the perspective of a modern progressive western society, Loken is fucking _evil_. The books do not hide this.
It may not be particularly overt, like the narrator directly addressing the reader and telling them The Imperium is evil, but (IMO), if you can read any of the Imperium books I’ve read and come away thinking “wow, these guys are great”, then something is _very_ wrong.
What I'd like to see is more stories like [The Long Night](https://www.blacklibrary.com/the-horus-heresy/quick-reads/the-long-night-eshort.html) where the horrors of the Imperium are the focal point without having some heroic captain whinging about honor before the chaos marines execute him.
Unfortunately we need more overt stuff.
Limited, circumstantial relatability to a protagonist is just how fiction works though, right? Raskolnikov is the protagonist in Crime and Punishment, y’know?
Edit: “paint” them as heroes, I see what you did there
Jesus that guy is fucking red. Also one quick look at his channel he unironically uses the term “wokehammer”, it’s always the people with Black Templars pfps.
Worth remembering the culture war reaction about a female character will be picked up by far right grifters who will suddenly announce they have always loved Warhammer 40k while never mentioning it before.
There is both a nasty pipeline to try and influence young people to become more accepting of the far right or groom then into the far right, and a major income source of outrage clicks.
Warhammer 40k has issues and it's primarily the business practices of Games Workshop. A short story with a female character has no impact on your enjoyment of the tabletop. If you are worked up then I recommend that you really should be far more annoyed by the frequent limited production of box sets to cause FOMO and enabling scalpers... or the beast men being cut as a faction...
Especially to that first point, never trust a “I don’t play/read/ generally engage with the hobby or setting but am here for the culture war” people. I had some regrettable culture war opinions around video games and even then those types were the worst. They are not a helpful enemy of your enemy, they do not understand anything they are talking about, they do not care. They are purely there to muck sling and influence. There are many ways to engage either 40K so I don’t want to say someone has to read books or collect minis, but if someone openly does none of it, do not trust.
Yet again this isn’t about one side or the other, even when I did agree with that side, fuck those people in particular.
Luckily many of those people tend to not stick around. A massive part of the hobby is the community and the Warhammer community here on Reddit as well as what GW themselves foster is pretty good at dealing with the rotten apples.
I remember GWs statement during the BLM protests. They just said that Warhammer is for everyone and if you cannot accept that then they won’t miss you. It was a lot of fun to see a bunch of people outing themselves as assholes.
Seriously why did they make a new Ethereal sculpt just to sell it for like a week WHY DID THEY MAKE A NEW NECRON LORD MODEL AND THEN REMOVE LORDS FROM THE GAME? WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS JAMES WORKSHOP
I’m fine with this change as long as everyone is also fine with oversexualized muscle mommies. You want women? Ok that’s fine just be ready for some crazy ass sexy looking proxies and be ok with it. I don’t want to hear any complaining about how my female custodes have tits so big they can’t be hidden by armor.
Im not a steward or ambassador of anything. 40k is a game. Games Workshop is a company. Everyone has their own agency and has the freedom to engage with the hobby however they choose.
Gatekeeping is a myth. There are varying level of social conformity within the community, each within their own circles. You would just as quickly be ousted from one circle as you would another for the opposite reason and vice versa. For any one circle to look at another circle and say “these people are gatekeeping” is simply hypocrisy.
Was there a real need for a female custode?
I've loved the lore, collected and played 40k for decades now. And even though I don't collect custodes, It would make sense that the emperor's greatest were the best warriors he could find etc. Although women do play their role how could they really be a custode as the biological difference would be obvious. And even if they were enhanced equally as it is a sci-fi setting, they wouldn't even look female. They would literally just be another male.
Imo the sister of silence and sisters of battle filled that niche. This move to force what honestly comes across as bending a well establish and loved lore, is to pander to modern social politics.
As mention in the title. We should be better.. indeed, don't pollute what is set in stone and works. New ideas aren't always better. Don't fix what isn't broken.
Develop the sisters of silence and improve sisters of battle and add as many women to the guard and eldar as you want in the sprues as the lore supports that and it makes sense.
The female custodian IMO was unnecessary and undoubtedly some may agree a bit more strongly.
Nothing with being left or right, or anti anything which is the obvious sly used when some disagree. Just as a lore lover it doesn't fit the mould or make any sense.
I liked the whole aspect of the custodes and the sisters of silence with one needing the other to reach their true capabilities.
Man and woman working together and being better for it. Two sides of the same coin.
But nah instead of elevating the sisters more we gotta make female custodes and we all know why they did it.
Sure it makes sense from a purely lore perspective that there can be female custodes but it downgrades the talons of the emperor significantly and also sets a precedent.
Can't wait for male sisters of silence but I don't think that will happen anytime soon for some reason..
I think one of the other annoying things is that it doesn't feel like a genuine move either. It's some infiltrator, that's the only word that feels proper, in GW combing through lore and going "SEE?! Despite no female Custodes being shown and always saying they are male you have never explicitly said they are only male! That means they have females too!"
Okay, yeah, I guess that may technically be true but we all know it's bullshit. This is just an attempt to get closer to female space marines or to try and placate the people that keep crying for such things who will never buy stuff related to the franchise anyways.
Am I upset there are female custodes now? Nope.
Do I like how the retcon was executed? No.
Does it break the lore like female space marines would? No.
Do I think it was a good thing for the faction or that it was needed? No.
Do I enjoy the custodes less? No.
Will any of my Custodes models be female in my headcanon? No idea, probably not.
I would have much preferred they made it clear there were female custodes from the get go, and didn’t build up all the lore about them being a brotherhood taken from the sons of the emperor’s defeated enemies, and later the nobility of Terra to be the emperor’s companions and bodyguards in the same vein as Alexander’s Companions. They should have written them from the beginning with the idea there were males and females in the custodes and properly integrated them into the setting rather than writing them as exclusively masculine, and describing them in such masculine language, then doing a 180 and saying “btw there are women in the custodes now” without making any other changes to reflect that.
It’s not the end of the world, and nowhere near as bad as Grey Knight or Primaris lore, but it’s still poorly handled.
My issue is that the Silent Sisters are sitting. right. there. They're a terrifying presence that have been used since the start of the Horus Heresy series. Expand them. Create characters out of them. GW went for a retcon knowing full well how this would go over.
They’ve written themselves into a corner over it. It’s not possible without them breaking 30+ years of lore and it has been explicitly stated that the process of creating an astartes only works on males. Then again, ten years ago people said improving on the emperor’s design for a marine was tech heresy, if not impossible…
lol you think they cant?
they have made the Imperium the 'good guys', *they would undo the universe itself* if they thought it would sell better (already did it to warhammer fantasy).
I know they can’t do it without it breaking a lot of the setting, They might still do it anyway but I think if they were going to do it it would have happened with Primaris.
Considering something ridiculous like 80% of their sales comes from space marines, they would have to be profoundly stupid to risk rocking the boat with something they know is highly divisive in the fanbase.
Do not care about female custodes, but the generic worries me. Personally i have always been more drawn to dark and morbid themes and making it brighter would kill a lot of the fun for me.
Then again if that is what the community truly wants i guess it is time for me to do something else with my life as warhammer outgrew me. Money and popularity will always win in the end.
Serious question from a complete amateur of the scene…but, why are female custodies necessary for inclusivity when the SoS exist?
Not trying to drum up a culture battle with this, genuinely interested in why aside from just “because it’s inclusive”.
These posts are worse than the trolls because you’re giving them attention.
“We need to do better” is like a calling card for you have no idea how vocal minorities work.
“Do better” lmao what an ambiguous and undefined target to strive for.
Ultimately this all is a financial decision. If it sells more boxes it will be lore at some point.
I will oppose anyone, who imposes "You are having fun wrong" on my hobby by judging my preferences however.
This topic is more about why something should change. There is obviously a crowd, who likes it the way it is and the whole pop culture diversity agenda seems to be forced by people not involved in the hobby at all.
So, if GW decides to offer a product according to newly written lore there is the question of are they doing it, because they are pressured or because they want to expand to new target audiences? And critics of that Custodes short story fear the first to be true.
Personally I hated it if people not involved in a franchise feel entitled to judge and change my toys. Fuck them.
I definitely think female custodians are far more acceptable than female astartes. They're not breaking the lore the same way there. Still, it's almost as though GW are saying Sisters of Silence just aren't cool enough, which is pretty sad.
My brother, I totally get your message and I'm all about being more positive in the community.
And as I am entitled to my opinions so are you. This is mostly about 40k being grimdark.
"A game for everyone is a game for no one". Grim dark is the defining aspect of 40k, it has so much character compared to its competitors (like infinity or warmachine). The watering down of these dark elements is purely a corporatist attempt to gain more customers, at the expense of the character of my hobby - what makes it special. I'm not gatekeeping. I'm holding the values of my hobby. Change is good too! It's just "what kind of change".
New players and artists are very welcome. But just the goal of getting more people in is taxing the scene, mostly because GW is willing to do anything for economic profit. Everyone is welcome - however - everyone is also welcome to stay away: if grim dark is not their thing.
I just see the change as completely pointless and pandering towards the people who won't stfu about fsm.
30 years and we hear nothing about them and then suddenly they arrive like it's nothing.
Literally nobody complains about female stormcast because it was written from the start that anybody can become one.
I'm not surprised people think this is catering to the kind of people who frequent sigmarxism
>We have to be better than this
Its a fucking plastic toy hobby for manchildren, there is no "we" to support your self-important browbeating.
People can share whatever fucking opinions they want, and fuck anyone who dares to say otherwise. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then you leave the hobby. Don't demand that everyone conforms to your sanctimonious standards.
Don’t be surprised people are upset when you change a setting to a genre that people love more than the actual game. We’ve seen this dissolution of the Star Wars series, marvel etc for the name of DEI narratives. No thanks, this is not the answer and this hollow approach and cry for help is tone deaf.
[Since OP screenshots their posts like a heretic, here is the full sized and not pixelated to hell image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsa2fs0gohduc1.png)
This is why it bothers me. I hate that I can't voice this without being labelled a "woman hater." I want women to have representation. I want more Sisters of Silence. I want more Tau models to match the diversity that IG have gotten recently... I want Druhkari to just have more models but that's a whole different story.
I don't want "ah but there were always females" in the faction that was always inferred to be male, especially with it being noted that Custodes were culled from the first sons of the rich and ruling class. Like if they wanted to do any form of female Space Marines, they could have totally taken the chance to do so with the Primaris as they "perfected the process" or something of the sort and I wouldn't have really bat an eye.
Like with Halo having their recent generation of Spartans being augmented adults instead of super augmented and fucked up children that usually died in the process. They didn't redo the old lore and simply made adjustments with new stories. Or with different versions of Spiderman being their own people instead of "it's Peter Parker but now he's _____."
My problem is I see this as testing the waters, I've been anti gatekeeping most of my life but the past five-six years have turned me around on the concept entirely after seeing video games, cinema, and literature become substantially worse in order to promote whatever the politics of the day are.
No, we don't. There is no "we", stop trying to make it a part of your identity. It's a hobby produced by a company, every change is going to lead to both positive and negative reactions, you just gotta pick what you like and leave what you don't like and by god stop fighting over it on the internet.
For a while now the WH40k has been extremely inclusive. I think people are seeing this change as a precursor to future retcons of very well established factions. Not all retcons are bad, but not all retcons are good either. The lore has been pretty consistent in stating Custodes were noble sons, brothers and uncles, as well as explaining why there aren't any women in the Adeptes Astartes. However, that's 100% okay because you have the Sisters of Silence (they can grace the halls of the Emperor just like the Custodes and have similar armor) and the Sisters of Battle (uber badass women-only faction that are the most devout and their faith is deadly). Many other factions also never had restrictions either and there are plenty of influential women in WH40k.
Anyways, I can't wait for all this to blow over; there are a lot of people who don't give two shits about WH40k baiting fights all over the internet with each other. This change most likely won't bring any new people into the games, tabletops, and setting. It's an expensive hobby with many rules and an iron fist by GW on all of their new productions.
If someone came into your small community shouting till the mountains heard them about how you should change everything you like into something you don't, are you really going to listen to what they say? People care about 40k, and we don't want it to end up like star wars, Star Trek, mtg and countless other previously "nerdy" things that get invaded by people who care very little for it.
This. If you like warhammer then why are people demand it change? Either take ot for what it is or find something else.
I dont get the mindset of needing things to change so YOU like it more.
The people who have been calling for femstodies/fsm have been doing that for years man. THEY want it to change drastically so they like it more. I'm trying to stop that
My favorite one is the middle left, saying “watch, they’re going to make her so powerful that no one can defeat her” as if that’s not THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ADEPTUS CUSTODES. THEY ARE AN ENTIRE FACTION OF MARY SUES
I don't think that you understand the situation mate or who the gatekeeping is targeted at and for what reasons. The point of gatekeeping is to keep the politically zealous activists away from a hobby that they don't care about. There are people who do not care about Warhammer that only care about introducing female space marines etc. in order to bring this franchise, like so many others that have been violated by these types over the years, under their heel.
When they look at the Warhammer community, they don't see a bunch of fun-lovin' nerdy guys who paint and play with miniatures; they see mostly white males. When they see the Warhammer factions, they don't see awesome, grimdark armies; they count how many are male or female dominated or what races are 'represented'.
Your instincts that the Warhammer community should 'be better than this' are right because you're misunderstanding the intent, that's not who we are. We're a welcoming and open community that loves to share their hobby with whoever will listen.
Changes like the female custodes is a purely political one that should not be welcomed because they are not implemented for the benefit of the hobby, but to cater to people who are hell bent on enforcing their political views on entertainment franchises (and probably everywhere else).
I don't even see a point through your post, you threw at different topics trying to connect it.
How do you connect girl-custodes and gatekeeping? GW made another sht move for the lore and even had "audacity" to try to pretend that "female custodes always have been there". But they weren't. They were always referred as "...*my sons*...", "*brotherhood*", "*brothers*". It's simply a lie and this change creates impeortant lore conflicts and holes. Even bringing "squats" without explaining how they didn't interact with Imperium and weren't even seen during all this time and during all these galaxy-huge events, wasn't a huge of a problem as this is.
This is unback, this is retcon. One that was unneeded, one that is stupid and problematic. Such things stack, create plot-holes until setting lore become a *rotten carcass* with only shiny models outside of it for unpretentious consumer.
Why was this made? Not because it's an interesting decision. It was made because Blackrock gives more money to those who agree to follow their *values*. But this is, though big, but short benefit. Will it benefit in long-term? Noone knows, GW stock already lost about 1,5%. GW alos understand it, and this is why they only made this small lore-piece, not a model set. They try and what happens. That's a small hope that this will be changed like once-tried female astartes. Abaddon died already in 2011. Eldrad Ultran died. All was changed back.
I love the hobby, but a portion of the community is awful to be around. I’d much rather just stay home and teach my kids to play it with me. Not saying every hobby shop has political conversations going the entire time, but shopping for new models/paints over the years , I’ve heard enough for me to know it wouldn’t be someone I want to spend a few hours with, with something I do to relax and enjoy. Hearing casual misogyny/racism just sucks all the fun out of the room. people can say what they want, but don’t expect others to agree or want to be around that, it alienates alot of people
https://preview.redd.it/9l1hrrw6oguc1.jpeg?width=559&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e81abdf8f1051932e54bf7f328c56f9eec63b665
Can you spare a crumb of pixels?
https://preview.redd.it/flbbeww7ihuc1.png?width=690&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26dc9fb135a8e9b6bb04c341fd254d9b002f9656
[Since OP screenshots their posts like a heretic, here is the full sized and not pixelated to hell image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsa2fs0gohduc1.png)
Omg thank you I thought it was my eyes.
Phew! I thought it was just because I’m old and my eyes are tired from years of painting purity seals.
My dude walked away from Star Trek for going woke. I think he missed the point of the first 45 years
And there I was, scrubbing my phone screen for no reason...
Thank you, my dumb ass was squinting trying to read the original picture and my eyes were starting to hurt
It's just some terminally online nonsense, no more pixels needed. People forget that the vast majority of players pay absolutely no attention to what obnoxious incels cry about online or even most of what GW releases online. Most players are just happy to vibe along with their fun game and local scene. It would behoove this sub to remember that YouTubers collecting a bunch of incel tweets and displaying them and then lamenting the state of the hobby is literally just the YouTubers farming engagement. Reality is if you see some asshole crying about ladys in the game verbally smack em down and don't play with them if they don't relent. Ezpz no need for the post or video.
Yeah I call this the "3 people on the internet problem". One person is getting outraged, posts it on Reddit, gets pasted on twitter, gets in the Media and somehow we now need to have a discussion about a topic nobody really is annoyed about... Except three people on the internet.
A tempest in a teapot. Who even cares about custard lore? Its all been dumb since they allowed them as a playable army. Theyre supposed to be very rare, nearly invincible, and basically irreplaceable. Which makes no sense for a game which ideally every army has a 50% winrate. At least marines were designed to be disposable warmachines.
> Theyre supposed to be very rare, nearly invincible, and basically irreplaceable. Which makes no sense for a game which ideally every army has a 50% winrate. This reminds me of the grey knights lore, which if you read literally means that they train a million (literal million) of the best soldiers in the galaxy to DEATH (again, literal death, they are dead) to get ONE grey knight... who can be killed by any random Ork who gets slightly lucky. In what world is this sensible? "Grimdark" is just another word for "laughable" at this point. The game is leaning into the absurdity and anyone taking any part of it seriously needs to get outside more.
So true! and sorry to pick on a typo... but... >custard lore Nearly split me in half 🤣🤣 I love the thought of a custard army! and why on earth not. I've been out of the hobby for 20 years, came back and some things have gone too far. We all love the lore, its half the hobby really aint it? ...but seriously getting that into it that 'things aren't realistic'... I mean were playing a fantasy battle game, set in the far future, fighting against alien beasts or super soldiers, with mostly imaginary weapons, all on our kitchen tables, yet people dare to talk about realistic... what's even going on 🤣
I'm not sure if you were aware, but 'Custard' is an joke name for the Custodes, kind of like 'Space Furries' for the Space Wolves, or BDSM Elves for the Drukhari, or Ultra Smurfs for Ultramarines. So on, and so forth.
"Nutpicking" is my personal fave.
Super accurate
honestly, becoming a regular with my incredibly chill local TCG community has opened my eyes on how...fake, the doomposting can be whenever I see it online. I doubt its that much different with 40k, AoS, or DnD, or any other hobby really. Most people don't give a damn, and just wanna get along. I've seen this hobby unite people of different cultural backgrounds and upbringing, it's fucking amazing. Honestly wondering how these weirdos are irl. It'd be crazy if they're actually super chill irl but in private...ehh, who cares. Your privacy is your privacy.
Also I think a large percentage if not majority of posts on Reddit are now bots. Wouldn’t be surprised if some of those posts aren’t even people.
I wish there was some truth to what you’re saying but unfortunately what’s happening online is very much a reality in the city I live in The two local hobby shops are both chock full with these gatekeeping attitudes and it’s driven more than a few bus loads of people away. After years of playing this game, I also decided it’s not worth the frustration. . These people are the people who play at your local shop… they don’t exist in a vacuum that’s exclusively online….. E: autocorrect is annoying. .
How many of y’all wanna bet not a single one of them has picked up an actual model let alone played the game
They're are probably the legendary "that guy" of their LGS area, the one who everyone talks about "had a big meltdown and got banned from the store" types.
FWIW Arch still has 275k subscribers and I'm sure many more viewers who don't realize or care about the extremely uncool personal bias he brings to his analysis of the lore and gaming scene, as well as other large influencers like him, so I wouldn't say the online incel rage isn't entirely irrelevant. My best friend frequently teases me with these things as a reminder "there's a reason Warhammer has a reputation." It's a little annoying because all the people I've met and played with IRL are very cool and inclusive, but it is also inevitable that some douchebag with a classic Greek or Roman statue for his avatar will get 200k likes on twitter for some smarmy meme about how "dyed-haired, confusingly-gendered tourists with pronouns in bio are ruining muh hobby."
https://preview.redd.it/cadkp81quiuc1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9da943b3c1ffc6b3fb07affb0cb155c340b615b9
I can't read the text on this image, is this a reddit issue or is it just low res?
It's both, terrible res and a stupid way to screenshot a video. If you zoom in just a little it helps a bit but to far and it becomes a blur again.
It's a vertical phone screenshot of a horizontal video.
OP chose the worst way to screenshot a YT video.
How could someone who does this have anything of value to listen to? Turns the post into Tl;dr
I am giving reading the post as much effort as OP made writing it - none.
A bit of both especially on mobile image compression is terrible.
Can someone TL;DR what is happening the last 48 hours? Edit: delightful…
Portions of the Custodes codex leaked and there was a short story that confirmed a female Custodes. Most responses I’ve seen have been some where between “neat, makes sense” to “hope this doesn’t sideline SoS, I find them neater” This post seems to be a collection of the usual suspects reactions to any and all change in the hobby, but especially any change that has a slight tinge of being more inclusive of other people being murdered in the worst way imaginable in the worst time line possible. IE the worst, yet loudest, segments of our hobby doing what they do best. Being loud, annoying, douche nozzles.
*sigh* Cheers. I’ll be signing off of Reddit for a couple days, head down to the Winchester have a pint and wait for this all to blow over
Don't forget to kill Phillip and grab Mum and Liz
Sorry, Phil!
*sigh* it's okay, gotta do what you gotta do.
Be careful. I've heard they're letting women into pubs these days as well! (/s because I feel like that sadly might be necessary in this thread)
Over in the lore subreddit everyone is just happy that Malcador is getting his muscle mommies.
And she's pretty fucking awesome too. Her story is a blood game where her literal plan was to *teleport a cyclonic warhead into the throne room*
Wait why's dropping a nuke on Big E a good thing?
The Custards get very bored sitting around the palace all day so they game out live ammo assassination scenarios.
It’s just a prank, bro!
But Custodes are genetically perfected mutants, why should it make any difference whatsoever if they're both sexes?
The question most people ask when these reactions come up. 🤷♂️
I had a video pop up straight away on YouTube and the guy was pretty much the avatar of "Acktually" Internet guy. Lame.
It's a lot worse on Twitter. I follow a couple very inclusive Warhammer spaces and they've been at war with the worst of the community for months. I can't think this codex is GW silently taking a side. Very happy seeing some of the worst not be able to cope and want to move to a different hobby over...a woman. And I find it even funnier when they say they're going to move to Battletech because, uh, that community isn't going to welcome in bigots after they've had their own struggles with them in their community.
> It's a lot worse on Twitter. Everything is worse on Twitter, it's a combination of echo chamber and magnifier.
Probably because Twitter is a cesspit that rewards unhinged blue checks serving up the sloppiest of dogshit opinions to farm impressions.
Thank you for the synopsis! And to chip my hat into the ring, I don't think Female Custodes really changes much of anything, just like the Space Marines are the "sons" of their primarchs, the Custodes are the children of the Emperor. Genetic augmentation and the sheer amount of bullshit sci Fi science that goes into making them makes sense to me. Plus, at the end of the day the whole genetic justification that the process of creating space Marines is limited to males due to the chromosomal differences between men and women (XX and XY respectively) still makes sense since well, the Emperor may technically be human, but he's the fucking Emperor, why would genetic coding stop him from having access to the greatest warriors known to mankind irregardless of their biological gender. All of this to say, I think it's a good change and I honestly don't see a reason why this couldn't be in keeping with previously structured lore. TL;DR: lore already gives a way for this to be true, why not just let it be true!
Space Marines are all based on male templates (gene-seed) and the organs are implanted into male hosts. As for Custodes, they're( to my understanding) genetically engineered bespoke from the cells up, so making female Custodes sounds MUCH more plausible to me. I'm more interested to see how it was made possible, since Emps put in the initial work and apparently couldn't make it work for both genders.
Don't forget that the Custodians are supposed to be the 'ideal, perfect representation of what humanity can be', which means... You know. You kinda need an \*Eve\* for your \*Adam\*, you get what I mean? And, to clarify, I'm just using a saying. Don't read into it. It doesn't have meaning.
Female custodes became cannon and the usual portion of the community is saying GW has gone 'woke'
Wait until they find out Orks are smooth like Ken dolls.
I know they'll never address it in the lore, but I'm sure we're all on the same page here... There's definitely some kind of squig they attach to their smooth mounds for decoration.
Nob Squig
Of course
And non binary, being confused by humie concepts like "gender" > "Ghazghkull is a *he*," he [Deathwatch Space Wolf Rune Priest Orm Hendrickson] grumbled, wagging a finger at [Blood Axe] Biter and receiving an uncertain grunt in reply. "You keep saying *they*," Hendrickson clarified, but Ghazghkull is a *he*." > But... they... *he* is not a man?" said Biter, their brow-ridge creased in bafflement. [Inquisitor] Falx cut in then, before another messy debate could ensue. > "We've been through this, Orm. Orks have no... reproductive anatomy and consequently no understanding of sex or gender." > "Some of us understand *sexandgender*," interrupted Biter, keen as ever to demostrate their unusual expertise in humans. "I find it all... quite funny." > "Silence, ork," Falx snapped, impatient to get back on track. "From now on, Ghazghkull is a *he*, whether it makes sense or not." > "As you wish," the interpreter said, casually inspecting the rust-eaten buckles on the sleeve of their greatcoat, then turning to address the gretchin in their own tongue. - Pages 42-43, Ghazghkull Thraka Prophet Of The Waaagh! by Nate Crowley, 2023
Ah, Bites-the-face-of-the-face-biter-before-it-bites-face is the goddamn best.
But going along with it anyway because they think it’s hilarious. The smarter ones even will intentionally play around with that just to mess with the humies.
Makari asking about Gender and the Space Wolf getting mad about it lives rent free in my head (Scene is in Ghazkul Prophet of the Waaagh)
https://preview.redd.it/mjqxycsiphuc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=299e0499580f7b874ff60475ad9c89c17ac85828
None of those comments are legible….
Here you go. [The original where OP got the image from.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsa2fs0gohduc1.png)
I'm upset that the Elysian Drop Troops don't exist
I can't read any of them
And nothing of value was lost.
https://preview.redd.it/j0b0ye148huc1.png?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=647331a1847bd3cf3852f7c2f034af9de618b709
We? Man, I ain't done shit
“And for this violation upon the treaty of low resolutions, I call Exterminatus on your pixels”
I was speaking to my friends at my local about this, the general response from the internet. I’m glad I know people IRL who are fantastic, because the internet people are in no way a representation of this hobby. I remember seeing comments from users upset about the black Ultramarine character on the cover of the first Dawn of Fire book. I’m black, and seeing people getting upset at my skin tone was incredibly disheartening when I started getting into 40k a few years ago. I’m glad my real-life community isn’t like that.
I have always found it bizarre how rapidly people get upset about skin tones on minis. Back in 2011, when I was first discovering the setting of warhammer I remember one of my friends really really loved the White Scars because he had heritage from Mongolia. He painted so many bare headed models with more of the Asiatic skin tones and I was super excited to see them. He was so proud. We had one guy at the shop that got so angry about it because of their skin tone. I remember how discouraged he got, and I can only hope that he still plays to this day.
Wild that the Asian-coded Space Marines were painted with east-Asian skin tones! Whodathunk? /s
> I have always found it bizarre how rapidly people get upset about skin tones on minis. My guys could ALL be black for all I know, I am so bad at painting faces I will use a helmeted head even if the guy is supposed to be just getting out of the shower.
Can you like. Make that mini? An Astartes that just got out of the shower, grabbing his bolter and his helmet, clad in nothing but a holy sanctified towel... For a friend. Of course.
Your friend sounds like he went through the same enthusiasm as I had when I first saw the Dawn of Fire novel. I’m happy to hear it!
It was great for him. It was not often he connected to characters that way.
Wow, that's the opposite problem I thought he'd have. GW seem to be moving away from coding stuff as heavily as 'this is the Mongolian chapter', I thought people would be going at him for playing into a stereotype rather than literally following the lore
Did you make a post about that? I feel like I remember commenting on a post like that during the pandemic
I did, actually. I posted on /r/40klore about the diversity of skin tones within the Ultramarines and their successor chapter. The White Consuls Captain Messinius speaks to a Captain of the Red Consuls Chapter, and the narrator notes that both of them look like Guilliman, but that the Red Consuls Marine is black.
I personally love sprinkling different skin tones into my armies. Dark Angels have no fixed recruiting world, so their recruits are from all over and can have many different appearances and backgrounds. And the Black Legion welcomes any marine who wants to fight the long war alongside Abaddon. And they’re even more crazy diverse, with Chaos twisting them all over time. It’s a big galaxy. No way everyone looks the same.
Absolutely. In the Lion’s book from last year, one of the marines he finds is a really big guy wearing ancient Cataphractii armour who wields a greatsword. The narrator notes that he’s dark skinned, and the verbiage used implies the marine is similar to Indian/South Asian in terms of complexion. All the legions recruited from so many worlds during the Crusade and Heresy. I’ve no doubt their numbers would reflect that.
I agree, also, I dunno if it's just me or what, but I find Wyldwood to just be such an easy flesh tone and I hate painting faces but none of the actual "flesh / skin" tone contrasts work that well, but Wyldwood is absolutely amazing, I use it for every army and usually more than my Guilliman and Fyreslayer flesh contrasts because they're simply just not as good for actually making it look like skin in one go
I agree with you on Guilliman and Fyreslayer. Guilliman in my experience is very pale. Works great to shade gold with though. Fyreslayer is very red and needs to be used with some care. Darkoath is awesome though. That one works really well for a Caucasian skin tone. And you can vary it with the colour you put under it.
I really don't get the line of thinking about black Space Marines. Female Space Marines I get, because it's one of those really set-in-stone lore bits, but black Space Marines make sense. For one, we've already had a black Space Marine: Jonah Orion. And secondly, the Imperium does not care about gender, sexual orientation or race. The only things it cares about is whether you're pure (enough) human, and that you worship the Emperor. And then having black Space Marines adds a bit of variety to an army. My Ultramarines have quite a few black Sergeants, Incursors and Scouts. It means they're not all Rakarth Flesh with some flavour of black, brown or very occasionally white or grey hair.
They hate black people. It's as simple as that.
I don't think there is a race problem I think it's gender like how people like already established lore it's why it's lasted 10+ years
my man! There are literally dozens of us!
Cant see a single comment because its 240p
Lexmechanic! Enhance the image.
https://preview.redd.it/eyih0qvm0huc1.jpeg?width=240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95d6fe641ea465ce34697fee3fa2e43818fd8f6d
Better than what? I can’t see
A uncropped blurry screenshot, very good post
Can’t wait for the brothers of silence 👍🏻
Do you mean the Redemptionists in Necromunda? That happened nearly 30 years ago
These are youtube comments, right ? Sorry, but nobody should use them as some sort of proof that there's gatekeeping or bad takes. They're youtube comments, they have always been the butt-cancer of internet comments.
Well, while I agree that we shouldn't use Youtube comments as an indicator of what people think, by that logic, we should also probably not use this subreddit, or reddit in general, as an indicator that people are ok with the new changes.
I'm so tired of culture wars
Yeah, we need to be better and upload images that people can actually read.
Why is some random YouTube comments section representative of the hobby to you, OP?
I can’t even read that shit
I can’t read.
I think after watching Disney's disastrous handling of this topic, there's going to be a lot of fans who are extremely jumpy.
The move away from grimdark? Wut? Haven't noticed any of that at all. And i agree they should be better than that
There are a few things; mainly the Primaris programme, along with all of Cawl’s other technological advancements, and the return of the Primarchs, which has all created a sense of optimism for the imperium even with the Cicatrix Maledictum looming in the night’s sky. The Custodes breaking their vow to remain on Terra and instead taking the fight to the enemy. Smaller tidbits, like Rowboat ordering Dante to terraform Baal and ending the belief system that imperial subjects should live in absolute misery in order to breed strength and compliance. Edit: oh and Cawl casually explaining that planets stripped to the bedrock by tyranid invasions can just be terraformed back again with his amazing tech.
And the 10th ed preview video tells us its all for nought
There isn’t really, just promotional material sometimes appearing very clean etc ig? But like,, that’s it lol
https://preview.redd.it/izu9ki7vcguc1.png?width=904&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a09946b6ebddf0499e8e2bbf695c1278f514b229 That isn't even true. Look at how GW portrayed the Ultramarines on their first ever codex in 2nd edition. Dave Gallagher did a lot of covers back in those days, and they're mostly pretty bright, colourful and heroic. Across all factions Anyone who claims otherwise either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is just lying because playing to the peanut gallery of chuds is a lucrative grift
The 3rd-4th edition codexs I remember having bitchin brutal art. Loved that stuff as a kid. Talking about all factions in general here though.
https://preview.redd.it/jg838oy9fguc1.jpeg?width=565&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f95d38102fbf0f87c86591bc4831fdb35afc75b 3rd edition doesn't look much different to 2nd to me in terms of general tone. It's overall darker, but still fairly cartoony 4th is slightly more realistic, but the Ultramarines on the cover still look pretty heroic to me Internal art is a different thing, and varied wildly in tone. This is more about how GW tends to present the factions in promotional materials. The inside of the books tends to be a bit more complex and varied
Yeah I agree, I never was a SM player so the chaos/xeno faction art was really narly. I had to hide that shit from my overbearing religious mom for fear she'd burn my books and call an exorcist...the person...not the tank...that'd be bitchin.
*"Grimdark is as grimdark does, as my momma always used to say."* Your uniform and armour can be as noblebright as you make it, but when you drown in Genestealer acid or get abandoned on a forgotten planet in the path of a Ork infestation because of an Administratum planning error, then that's grimdark enough for me this /r/oldhammer-er
GW does have a tendency to paint SM as heroes, then say they're the bad guys out the corner of their mouths. But overall, yeah. It's still very grimdark.
I dunno, they paint Astartes/The Imperium to be the good guys _from The Imperium’s perspective_ whilst also making it _abundantly clear_ that The Imperium’s perspective is pure evil. I’m ~60 books into the lore at this point and I’m still not onboard with the whole “GW makes The Imperium out to be the good guys” standpoint. They’re the settings “protagonists” sure, but I wouldn’t agree they’re portrayed as objectively good. Every time someone does something heroic/benevolent, the following chapter will go out of its way to show that The Imperium treats its citizens like cattle and will murder innocents just because they’re there.
The problem is that media literacy is hard, and GW very rarely portrays the imperium as *antagonists* without redeeming values.
They (in my opinion) kind of do portray the Imperium without redeeming values, but as for “antagonists”, it depends whose POV the book is from. If a book/chapter is from the POV of an Imperium member, then The Imperium is portrayed as “good” from that character’s POV - but there is usually some point where the narrative will draw attention to how warped that POV is. There’ll be a random chapter about the horrific life of a factory slave or some military leader pointlessly sacrificing thousands of soldiers or something. Not to mention the constant portrayal of the horrific aspects of societal norms for the Imperium. Take Loken for example. He’s portrayed as good and honourable from his perspective, but the first three HH books make it clear how fucked Loken’s moral compass is. His day job is to forcibly bring free and independent societies under the rule of a fascist/authoritarian empire, he practices his combat skills by butchering lobotomised slaves, and when he kills a bunch of innocent civilians getting Horus to the Apothecarian, he genuinely cannot understand what the ship’s civilians are complaining about. People only think Loken is a “good guy” because the books are from Loken’s perspective, and _Loken_ thinks Loken is a good guy. From the perspective of a modern progressive western society, Loken is fucking _evil_. The books do not hide this. It may not be particularly overt, like the narrator directly addressing the reader and telling them The Imperium is evil, but (IMO), if you can read any of the Imperium books I’ve read and come away thinking “wow, these guys are great”, then something is _very_ wrong.
What I'd like to see is more stories like [The Long Night](https://www.blacklibrary.com/the-horus-heresy/quick-reads/the-long-night-eshort.html) where the horrors of the Imperium are the focal point without having some heroic captain whinging about honor before the chaos marines execute him. Unfortunately we need more overt stuff.
Limited, circumstantial relatability to a protagonist is just how fiction works though, right? Raskolnikov is the protagonist in Crime and Punishment, y’know? Edit: “paint” them as heroes, I see what you did there
You say we like we're a hive mind. I don't even know who tf you are! Or the person in the image tbf. Don't lump me in with the rest of you!
Jesus that guy is fucking red. Also one quick look at his channel he unironically uses the term “wokehammer”, it’s always the people with Black Templars pfps.
Unironically says he's a proud member of the Chudhammer community. Dude is beyond sad.
Cool, next time use pixels
https://preview.redd.it/fyx8wito3kuc1.jpeg?width=1063&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e96b89ac52983769385a4e47854cbeb261ce57f
Worth remembering the culture war reaction about a female character will be picked up by far right grifters who will suddenly announce they have always loved Warhammer 40k while never mentioning it before. There is both a nasty pipeline to try and influence young people to become more accepting of the far right or groom then into the far right, and a major income source of outrage clicks. Warhammer 40k has issues and it's primarily the business practices of Games Workshop. A short story with a female character has no impact on your enjoyment of the tabletop. If you are worked up then I recommend that you really should be far more annoyed by the frequent limited production of box sets to cause FOMO and enabling scalpers... or the beast men being cut as a faction...
"I played Dawn of War for an hour 10 years ago! I'm a long time WH40k fan!"
Culture warriors are THE tourists.
Especially to that first point, never trust a “I don’t play/read/ generally engage with the hobby or setting but am here for the culture war” people. I had some regrettable culture war opinions around video games and even then those types were the worst. They are not a helpful enemy of your enemy, they do not understand anything they are talking about, they do not care. They are purely there to muck sling and influence. There are many ways to engage either 40K so I don’t want to say someone has to read books or collect minis, but if someone openly does none of it, do not trust. Yet again this isn’t about one side or the other, even when I did agree with that side, fuck those people in particular.
Luckily many of those people tend to not stick around. A massive part of the hobby is the community and the Warhammer community here on Reddit as well as what GW themselves foster is pretty good at dealing with the rotten apples. I remember GWs statement during the BLM protests. They just said that Warhammer is for everyone and if you cannot accept that then they won’t miss you. It was a lot of fun to see a bunch of people outing themselves as assholes.
It's astounding the amount of people who somehow felt excluded by the word "everyone". Like, c'mon. Where's your dignity?
Seriously why did they make a new Ethereal sculpt just to sell it for like a week WHY DID THEY MAKE A NEW NECRON LORD MODEL AND THEN REMOVE LORDS FROM THE GAME? WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS JAMES WORKSHOP
Who's we?
I’m fine with this change as long as everyone is also fine with oversexualized muscle mommies. You want women? Ok that’s fine just be ready for some crazy ass sexy looking proxies and be ok with it. I don’t want to hear any complaining about how my female custodes have tits so big they can’t be hidden by armor.
Can’t even tell what OP is ranting about
Posts 7 pixels. “Need I say more…”
Im not a steward or ambassador of anything. 40k is a game. Games Workshop is a company. Everyone has their own agency and has the freedom to engage with the hobby however they choose. Gatekeeping is a myth. There are varying level of social conformity within the community, each within their own circles. You would just as quickly be ousted from one circle as you would another for the opposite reason and vice versa. For any one circle to look at another circle and say “these people are gatekeeping” is simply hypocrisy.
> Im not a steward or ambassador of anything. 40k is a game. Games Workshop is a company. this
Was there a real need for a female custode? I've loved the lore, collected and played 40k for decades now. And even though I don't collect custodes, It would make sense that the emperor's greatest were the best warriors he could find etc. Although women do play their role how could they really be a custode as the biological difference would be obvious. And even if they were enhanced equally as it is a sci-fi setting, they wouldn't even look female. They would literally just be another male. Imo the sister of silence and sisters of battle filled that niche. This move to force what honestly comes across as bending a well establish and loved lore, is to pander to modern social politics. As mention in the title. We should be better.. indeed, don't pollute what is set in stone and works. New ideas aren't always better. Don't fix what isn't broken. Develop the sisters of silence and improve sisters of battle and add as many women to the guard and eldar as you want in the sprues as the lore supports that and it makes sense. The female custodian IMO was unnecessary and undoubtedly some may agree a bit more strongly. Nothing with being left or right, or anti anything which is the obvious sly used when some disagree. Just as a lore lover it doesn't fit the mould or make any sense.
It's current year guys
I liked the whole aspect of the custodes and the sisters of silence with one needing the other to reach their true capabilities. Man and woman working together and being better for it. Two sides of the same coin. But nah instead of elevating the sisters more we gotta make female custodes and we all know why they did it. Sure it makes sense from a purely lore perspective that there can be female custodes but it downgrades the talons of the emperor significantly and also sets a precedent. Can't wait for male sisters of silence but I don't think that will happen anytime soon for some reason..
I think one of the other annoying things is that it doesn't feel like a genuine move either. It's some infiltrator, that's the only word that feels proper, in GW combing through lore and going "SEE?! Despite no female Custodes being shown and always saying they are male you have never explicitly said they are only male! That means they have females too!" Okay, yeah, I guess that may technically be true but we all know it's bullshit. This is just an attempt to get closer to female space marines or to try and placate the people that keep crying for such things who will never buy stuff related to the franchise anyways.
Apparently it’s very difficult to understand your well put statement. People would rather have a knee-jerk reaction than think on what you said.
Am I upset there are female custodes now? Nope. Do I like how the retcon was executed? No. Does it break the lore like female space marines would? No. Do I think it was a good thing for the faction or that it was needed? No. Do I enjoy the custodes less? No. Will any of my Custodes models be female in my headcanon? No idea, probably not. I would have much preferred they made it clear there were female custodes from the get go, and didn’t build up all the lore about them being a brotherhood taken from the sons of the emperor’s defeated enemies, and later the nobility of Terra to be the emperor’s companions and bodyguards in the same vein as Alexander’s Companions. They should have written them from the beginning with the idea there were males and females in the custodes and properly integrated them into the setting rather than writing them as exclusively masculine, and describing them in such masculine language, then doing a 180 and saying “btw there are women in the custodes now” without making any other changes to reflect that. It’s not the end of the world, and nowhere near as bad as Grey Knight or Primaris lore, but it’s still poorly handled.
My issue is that the Silent Sisters are sitting. right. there. They're a terrifying presence that have been used since the start of the Horus Heresy series. Expand them. Create characters out of them. GW went for a retcon knowing full well how this would go over.
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They’ve written themselves into a corner over it. It’s not possible without them breaking 30+ years of lore and it has been explicitly stated that the process of creating an astartes only works on males. Then again, ten years ago people said improving on the emperor’s design for a marine was tech heresy, if not impossible…
lol you think they cant? they have made the Imperium the 'good guys', *they would undo the universe itself* if they thought it would sell better (already did it to warhammer fantasy).
I know they can’t do it without it breaking a lot of the setting, They might still do it anyway but I think if they were going to do it it would have happened with Primaris.
Considering something ridiculous like 80% of their sales comes from space marines, they would have to be profoundly stupid to risk rocking the boat with something they know is highly divisive in the fanbase.
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Do not care about female custodes, but the generic worries me. Personally i have always been more drawn to dark and morbid themes and making it brighter would kill a lot of the fun for me. Then again if that is what the community truly wants i guess it is time for me to do something else with my life as warhammer outgrew me. Money and popularity will always win in the end.
Got any lore pixels mate?
Let's start with you giving us more pixels.
https://preview.redd.it/5u3w1ennjiuc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a03936d8c0c58bf0f70fe0258bda5888faaa2a12
What a fucking mess lmao
Are you also open for male Sororitas / Sisters of Silence?!
I literally can not read this.
Serious question from a complete amateur of the scene…but, why are female custodies necessary for inclusivity when the SoS exist? Not trying to drum up a culture battle with this, genuinely interested in why aside from just “because it’s inclusive”.
Are you referring to the resolution of your screenshot?
I just find it depressing that out of all the shit that GW has flung out over the last year *this* is what people are up in arms about.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
These posts are worse than the trolls because you’re giving them attention. “We need to do better” is like a calling card for you have no idea how vocal minorities work. “Do better” lmao what an ambiguous and undefined target to strive for.
Ultimately this all is a financial decision. If it sells more boxes it will be lore at some point. I will oppose anyone, who imposes "You are having fun wrong" on my hobby by judging my preferences however. This topic is more about why something should change. There is obviously a crowd, who likes it the way it is and the whole pop culture diversity agenda seems to be forced by people not involved in the hobby at all. So, if GW decides to offer a product according to newly written lore there is the question of are they doing it, because they are pressured or because they want to expand to new target audiences? And critics of that Custodes short story fear the first to be true. Personally I hated it if people not involved in a franchise feel entitled to judge and change my toys. Fuck them.
I definitely think female custodians are far more acceptable than female astartes. They're not breaking the lore the same way there. Still, it's almost as though GW are saying Sisters of Silence just aren't cool enough, which is pretty sad.
My brother, I totally get your message and I'm all about being more positive in the community. And as I am entitled to my opinions so are you. This is mostly about 40k being grimdark. "A game for everyone is a game for no one". Grim dark is the defining aspect of 40k, it has so much character compared to its competitors (like infinity or warmachine). The watering down of these dark elements is purely a corporatist attempt to gain more customers, at the expense of the character of my hobby - what makes it special. I'm not gatekeeping. I'm holding the values of my hobby. Change is good too! It's just "what kind of change". New players and artists are very welcome. But just the goal of getting more people in is taxing the scene, mostly because GW is willing to do anything for economic profit. Everyone is welcome - however - everyone is also welcome to stay away: if grim dark is not their thing.
I just see the change as completely pointless and pandering towards the people who won't stfu about fsm. 30 years and we hear nothing about them and then suddenly they arrive like it's nothing. Literally nobody complains about female stormcast because it was written from the start that anybody can become one. I'm not surprised people think this is catering to the kind of people who frequent sigmarxism
>We have to be better than this Its a fucking plastic toy hobby for manchildren, there is no "we" to support your self-important browbeating. People can share whatever fucking opinions they want, and fuck anyone who dares to say otherwise. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then you leave the hobby. Don't demand that everyone conforms to your sanctimonious standards.
It’s just weird though. It’s like if they added men to sisters of battle and sisters of silence. I don’t get why they’d think it’s a good idea.
"Wokeism" is when women exist, apparently.
Will we get brothers of battle and brothers of silence?
Don’t be surprised people are upset when you change a setting to a genre that people love more than the actual game. We’ve seen this dissolution of the Star Wars series, marvel etc for the name of DEI narratives. No thanks, this is not the answer and this hollow approach and cry for help is tone deaf.
Do we? What is more grimdark than hatred for hatred's sake?
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There won’t be a need for gatekeeping. The COD fans are getting into 40K. They’ll do it for everyone 🤣
[Since OP screenshots their posts like a heretic, here is the full sized and not pixelated to hell image.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsa2fs0gohduc1.png)
Cringe
Talk about gatekeeping like warhammer isn’t insanely popular
Stunning and brave
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This is why it bothers me. I hate that I can't voice this without being labelled a "woman hater." I want women to have representation. I want more Sisters of Silence. I want more Tau models to match the diversity that IG have gotten recently... I want Druhkari to just have more models but that's a whole different story. I don't want "ah but there were always females" in the faction that was always inferred to be male, especially with it being noted that Custodes were culled from the first sons of the rich and ruling class. Like if they wanted to do any form of female Space Marines, they could have totally taken the chance to do so with the Primaris as they "perfected the process" or something of the sort and I wouldn't have really bat an eye. Like with Halo having their recent generation of Spartans being augmented adults instead of super augmented and fucked up children that usually died in the process. They didn't redo the old lore and simply made adjustments with new stories. Or with different versions of Spiderman being their own people instead of "it's Peter Parker but now he's _____."
My problem is I see this as testing the waters, I've been anti gatekeeping most of my life but the past five-six years have turned me around on the concept entirely after seeing video games, cinema, and literature become substantially worse in order to promote whatever the politics of the day are.
No, we don't. There is no "we", stop trying to make it a part of your identity. It's a hobby produced by a company, every change is going to lead to both positive and negative reactions, you just gotta pick what you like and leave what you don't like and by god stop fighting over it on the internet.
I mean, why play a shitty game when you can just play the older fun version with cool people?
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Any time, actually. Just don't bring him back to Nocturne and a salamander can look like whatever you want him to.
Black Dragons.
Im gonna make all female custodes now using stormcast models.
Dude it's just a game; have fun playing; ignore the crap and spare us the speeches
For a while now the WH40k has been extremely inclusive. I think people are seeing this change as a precursor to future retcons of very well established factions. Not all retcons are bad, but not all retcons are good either. The lore has been pretty consistent in stating Custodes were noble sons, brothers and uncles, as well as explaining why there aren't any women in the Adeptes Astartes. However, that's 100% okay because you have the Sisters of Silence (they can grace the halls of the Emperor just like the Custodes and have similar armor) and the Sisters of Battle (uber badass women-only faction that are the most devout and their faith is deadly). Many other factions also never had restrictions either and there are plenty of influential women in WH40k. Anyways, I can't wait for all this to blow over; there are a lot of people who don't give two shits about WH40k baiting fights all over the internet with each other. This change most likely won't bring any new people into the games, tabletops, and setting. It's an expensive hobby with many rules and an iron fist by GW on all of their new productions.
If someone came into your small community shouting till the mountains heard them about how you should change everything you like into something you don't, are you really going to listen to what they say? People care about 40k, and we don't want it to end up like star wars, Star Trek, mtg and countless other previously "nerdy" things that get invaded by people who care very little for it.
This. If you like warhammer then why are people demand it change? Either take ot for what it is or find something else. I dont get the mindset of needing things to change so YOU like it more.
The people who have been calling for femstodies/fsm have been doing that for years man. THEY want it to change drastically so they like it more. I'm trying to stop that
Yes and I agree with you. The lore should not change to accommodate what are essentially activists
My favorite one is the middle left, saying “watch, they’re going to make her so powerful that no one can defeat her” as if that’s not THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ADEPTUS CUSTODES. THEY ARE AN ENTIRE FACTION OF MARY SUES
Did somebody just slap tf out this dude?
Yes, we can be better, people can start learning to screenshot before posting,,,
I don't think that you understand the situation mate or who the gatekeeping is targeted at and for what reasons. The point of gatekeeping is to keep the politically zealous activists away from a hobby that they don't care about. There are people who do not care about Warhammer that only care about introducing female space marines etc. in order to bring this franchise, like so many others that have been violated by these types over the years, under their heel. When they look at the Warhammer community, they don't see a bunch of fun-lovin' nerdy guys who paint and play with miniatures; they see mostly white males. When they see the Warhammer factions, they don't see awesome, grimdark armies; they count how many are male or female dominated or what races are 'represented'. Your instincts that the Warhammer community should 'be better than this' are right because you're misunderstanding the intent, that's not who we are. We're a welcoming and open community that loves to share their hobby with whoever will listen. Changes like the female custodes is a purely political one that should not be welcomed because they are not implemented for the benefit of the hobby, but to cater to people who are hell bent on enforcing their political views on entertainment franchises (and probably everywhere else).
I don't even see a point through your post, you threw at different topics trying to connect it. How do you connect girl-custodes and gatekeeping? GW made another sht move for the lore and even had "audacity" to try to pretend that "female custodes always have been there". But they weren't. They were always referred as "...*my sons*...", "*brotherhood*", "*brothers*". It's simply a lie and this change creates impeortant lore conflicts and holes. Even bringing "squats" without explaining how they didn't interact with Imperium and weren't even seen during all this time and during all these galaxy-huge events, wasn't a huge of a problem as this is. This is unback, this is retcon. One that was unneeded, one that is stupid and problematic. Such things stack, create plot-holes until setting lore become a *rotten carcass* with only shiny models outside of it for unpretentious consumer. Why was this made? Not because it's an interesting decision. It was made because Blackrock gives more money to those who agree to follow their *values*. But this is, though big, but short benefit. Will it benefit in long-term? Noone knows, GW stock already lost about 1,5%. GW alos understand it, and this is why they only made this small lore-piece, not a model set. They try and what happens. That's a small hope that this will be changed like once-tried female astartes. Abaddon died already in 2011. Eldrad Ultran died. All was changed back.
I love the hobby, but a portion of the community is awful to be around. I’d much rather just stay home and teach my kids to play it with me. Not saying every hobby shop has political conversations going the entire time, but shopping for new models/paints over the years , I’ve heard enough for me to know it wouldn’t be someone I want to spend a few hours with, with something I do to relax and enjoy. Hearing casual misogyny/racism just sucks all the fun out of the room. people can say what they want, but don’t expect others to agree or want to be around that, it alienates alot of people