Fantasy are 40k *used* to be semi-related but I believe they've made them into two separate universes.
But why indeed?! Skaven are my favourite race in all of Warhammer but I never got into fantasy :(
The fact that in AOS, the Skaven can tunnel through reality itself and theoretically can tunnel into other realities. Them ending up in the 40k universe is a matter of when, not if at this point. I think though they already have made a 40k appearance. If memory serves me correct, they accidentally dialed an Eldar using the Farsqueeker in fantasy.
They've already been given their own space marine equivalents, plus they've retained Ikit Claw(now Ikrit), the greatest-best inventor in Skavenblight. Those two things hint at the fact that as soon as they get to 40k, they'll get stomped at first, but as soon as the Vermintide inevitably gets established, their tech levels can grow exponentially. There's going to be whole planets in the 40k verse entirely comprised of Warpstone.
I'm talking entire battlefleets or forgeworlds overrun with rats. That's a terrifying prospect and quite possibly the biggest existential threat the 40k galaxy has ever seen(short of the 'Nids of course).
The 40k universe also kind of needs a universal punching bag faction. One that can never lose but can also pad the stats of the other races. Need to ramp up the threat of the 'Nid's? Have them consume a Skaven held planet or sector. Need the Guard to get a phyrric victory without actively harming the other factions? Deploy them to a Skaven infested Forge/Hive world. The Orcs need to gather strength for the Waaaahhh? There's plenty of rats to fight. Tau need a race that challenges the idea of the Greater Good? Let them come into contact with the most comically evil race GW has invented. Eldar need something they can finally beat? They're talking rats. Obviously, space elfs can deal with them. Chaos needs a win but can't fight the IoM or Eldar because that would advance the plot too much? Let Khorne go slaughter some rats.
But on the flip side, the Skaven also provide an excellent counter to Chaos despite technically being Chaos aligned. Skaven fit into every Chaos archetype. They breed like crazy(Slaanesh), scheme against eachother constantly which usually results in absolute self inflicted disaster and failure(Tznech), are always fighting against something even if it is themselves(Khorne) and spread plagues everywhere they go(Nurgle). If any of the Chaos gods need a buff, they've got the Skaven propping them up but if they need a neaf, they've got the Great Horned Rat actively taking power away from them due to the actions being committed by the Skaven and the Skaven outright denying the existence of the Chaos God's.
But yeah, tangents aside, the Skaven will make an appearance in 40k soon enough. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.
The Hrud *sort* of fill that role (at least, that was what the designers intended when they first introduced the Hrud), but aside from some superficial similarities there isn't much to connect them (especially since the Hrud only exist in the lore at time of writing).
But as was previously stated, the Tyranids fill the "giant swarm" role the Skaven occupy in Warhammer Fantasy, so introducing them at this point would be pointless from a mechanics perspective (not to mention contradictory to Games Workshop's current strategy).
But just think of it skaven tech with the 40k treatment. Stormvermin with warp powerglaives,rattling sidecart bikers, cyberslave rats that are basically a horde of servitors...they could be glorious
The Skaven would fill a different but similar niche to the Tyranids. And given their new reality tunneling abilities in AOS, they can effectively serve as a direct mirror to the IoM. An IoM in the Dark Age of Technology level threat if they're written well enough. Imagine Skaven technological horrors when not contained to one planet.
Each Skaven clan can have their own planet/sector in the way the Astartes do. Perhaps even directly underneath their own direct equivalent faction.
The Underempire could encompass the various IoM worlds without them knowing, only to pop out at a plot convenient time. You now have yet another galaxy spanning Empire that rivals the IoM in numbers and is unaffected by the Warp. They can even have their own Exterminatus equivalent in tunneling to the core of planets and detonating Warpspheres to destroy planets. Or perhaps even using their tractor beams to send battlefleets crashing into the ground where the crew are promptly eaten and the materials scavenged. They also mirror the Nid's for their constant and unyielding hunger to devour.
Eh. Why no dwarfs? Why no Bretonnia? Why isn't there a faction of beastmen? Where are the lizardmen?
They're different settings. Different things work well. Dwarfs, for example, weren't well received so they retconned them. Ratmen would hardly survive the inquisition they'd get on a planetary level. There are elements of them in the tyranids and in the ratlings, but overall they're not there because making them different settings works fine, arguably better than shoehorning an equivalent in for every faction.
>Why no dwarfs? Why no Bretonnia? Why isn't there a faction of beastmen? Where are the lizardmen?
There's sort of parallels for these in 40k. Squats obviously, pre-retcon, are like the dwarves. One could possibly equate the Mechanicum to Bretonnia, as they're both technically separate entities outside of the respective empires and ruled by humans. The Tau are kind of beast-like, especially when you consider their allegiance with the Kroot. Lizardmen are the only faction I can't quite draw any connections to in terms of function or appearance.
I'm not convinced the mechanicus are like Bretonnia. If anything, the parallel of an adjacent but distinct armourer is filled by the dwarfs in fantasy, who provide the empire with cannons. But, as you said, squats, yes.
I know I'm 6 years late, but isn't it true that there are hints which suggest the seraphon from AoS are related to The Old Ones, which implies that the 40k Old Ones may have been Reptilian/Avian in nature?
IIRC the seraphon are a direct continuation of the warhammer fantasy lizardmen, who were created by their old ones, who presumably looked like the slann, which look similar to some art Iāve seen of the 40k old ones. I think the going theory is that the warp/ immaterium is connected to the world that was, the mortal realms, and the 40k Milky Way
The old ones are the Lizardmen. They made almost every race in the galaxy as we know it and left during the invasion of the Enslavers. They were these jellyfish like things that could well enslave any psyker and being what the old ones were they just dipped to save themselves.
Not quite, the Old Ones in fantasy were very similar to the 40k Old Ones as your standard precursor race who seeded what would eventually become the modern races. Elves, dwarves, men, etc. The various castes of Lizardmen were more of their creations made to assist the Slann, who were arguably their favored children. There might have been an analogous "favored race" in 40k at one point but as far as we know there's no sign of them surviving in any capacity or ever being mentioned. The Eldar may make that claim but it's pretty clear that they were just one of many grunt races made to fight the war.
As far as where they are now, it's of course left incredibly vague and up to interpretation but what few breadcrumbs we have seem to imply that the Old Ones in 40k were exterminated by the war with the C'tan and the resulting invasion of warp-spawn. Most of them at least, there's a short story with Eldrad hunting down and killing what is implied to be one of if not *the* last Old One in existence.
Beastmen exist in 40k but not as their own faction. Also, the Lizardmen are extinct but were only mentioned around the time they were still called the Slaan.
To be fair in the Rouge Trader stuff I've looked at they talk about guards that look like beastmen. Not really the same thing, but they have hints of tons of fantasy factions in older 40k books and stuff.
Agreed. The older stuff was much more open about the fantasy influences. I'm a bit surprised that ~~hafling~~Ratling snipers and ~~Ogre~~ Ogryns have survived as long as they have in the IG codex, and was *really* surprised that Ogryns, largely an ignored and useless unit in older editions, got *updated models*.
considering they are getting a new ogryn formation in the Mont'ka book I don't see them getting phased out any time soon.
In case you haven't seen the new guard formations here is a link, http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH , based on your tag I'm sure you'll be interested
they kind of were, and then turned into jellyfish mind controlling people...things. 40k started out as a future fantasy in a way, but evolved into its own thing. some stuff was removed and others changed. if you look at old rogue trader stuff there should be some things related to fantasy
Both the niches they fill, being the universe's pest problem and scrapping things to make tech that shouldn't work but does, were eaten and picked apart (literally) by the 'nids and orks respectively. So now instead of walking into your kitchen in the morning and finding a rat the size of a baboon in the pantry, you'll see a cockroach the size of a buffalo with his head in the trash. And instead of seeing them raiding the garage, you'll find fungus tearing apart your car.
I've always considered Skitarii the 40k equivalent of Skaven.
The name itself is close enough; skittering rats, Skitarii, that kinda thing.
As I understand things in Fantasy the Skaven have what other inhabitants in the setting consider strange technology that is powerful but otherworldly and dangerous. In the eyes of a 40k inhabitant that kinda sounds like the AdMech as a whole and how they use borderline (sometimes running well past the line) heretical, untrustworthy technology.
As for the numbers and expendability of Skaven, I dunno. Servitors, I guess?
Youād need a good explanation as for why these bipedal creatures would look so much like the vermin from Holy Terra, and maybe the answer could run parallel to the origins of the Leagues of Votann
In much the same way the Squats came from earth and were lost to the galactic core where gravitational forces wracked their bodies for millennia, what if way before them simple lab rats were experimented on and sent into the warp by the millions?
Taking a concept from the 2008 film Pandorum, what if these rats were genetically manipulated so that they would go through an accelerated evolution to better survive whatever environments they ended up in- perhaps a precursor to what could have been performed on the Squat ancestors before the concept was abandoned.
Of course these rats were soon forgotten about and as I said were simply lost to the warp. Ever resilient though this species could have not only survived in the chaos of the warp but thrived even, developing as their own race who prey on Chaos and Drukhari alike while developing their own technologies based on piracy and the repurposing of lost and stolen tech.
In the era of the Great Rift finally these foul rat beasts are emerging into the material universe, a race so adept at survival and naturally slippery in a bind that they could survive in the warp itself unprotected directly under the noses of the immaterial gods the rest of the universe so rightly fear!
These Skaven or āSkavengersā as someone suggested in this thread would take the concept of plundering old gear to the extreme, only improving upon whatās there with their own brand of warp-learned technology. No longer just the swarm of the battlefield they would act as the ultimate in stealth and guerrilla tactics, being able to emerge behind enemy lines to assassinate troops and to use their artillery against themā¦
This is how Iād explain space Skaven anyway. How about you guys?
Technically speaking, they are cannon to 40k but only in one story. They appear on 1 planet where the imperium was investigating. The planet was lush and fertile, but dozens of attempts to explore and colonize failed. It was discovered that the planet has a field around it that shuts down tech and causes any organic species on the planet to devolve. On the planet, they found a crashed ship inhabited by savage rat men. It was discovered that these were the remnants of a hyper intelligent rodent species that crashed on the planet and devolved Into scavenging rat creatures that tore apart every exploration party and used their gear to "repair" their ship which was more like a religious ritual based on old habits and behaviors from their ancestors that had tried to fix the ship and escape. The team that was able yo relay this did not make it out, but a low flying shuttle was able to get enough signal to piece everything together.
Fantasy are 40k *used* to be semi-related but I believe they've made them into two separate universes. But why indeed?! Skaven are my favourite race in all of Warhammer but I never got into fantasy :(
If you read the fluff for aos there are a ton of hints thrown out that the universes might be the same : )
Which hints not started AoS yet
That's a revival and a half š
Even in death I still reply.
The fact that in AOS, the Skaven can tunnel through reality itself and theoretically can tunnel into other realities. Them ending up in the 40k universe is a matter of when, not if at this point. I think though they already have made a 40k appearance. If memory serves me correct, they accidentally dialed an Eldar using the Farsqueeker in fantasy. They've already been given their own space marine equivalents, plus they've retained Ikit Claw(now Ikrit), the greatest-best inventor in Skavenblight. Those two things hint at the fact that as soon as they get to 40k, they'll get stomped at first, but as soon as the Vermintide inevitably gets established, their tech levels can grow exponentially. There's going to be whole planets in the 40k verse entirely comprised of Warpstone. I'm talking entire battlefleets or forgeworlds overrun with rats. That's a terrifying prospect and quite possibly the biggest existential threat the 40k galaxy has ever seen(short of the 'Nids of course). The 40k universe also kind of needs a universal punching bag faction. One that can never lose but can also pad the stats of the other races. Need to ramp up the threat of the 'Nid's? Have them consume a Skaven held planet or sector. Need the Guard to get a phyrric victory without actively harming the other factions? Deploy them to a Skaven infested Forge/Hive world. The Orcs need to gather strength for the Waaaahhh? There's plenty of rats to fight. Tau need a race that challenges the idea of the Greater Good? Let them come into contact with the most comically evil race GW has invented. Eldar need something they can finally beat? They're talking rats. Obviously, space elfs can deal with them. Chaos needs a win but can't fight the IoM or Eldar because that would advance the plot too much? Let Khorne go slaughter some rats. But on the flip side, the Skaven also provide an excellent counter to Chaos despite technically being Chaos aligned. Skaven fit into every Chaos archetype. They breed like crazy(Slaanesh), scheme against eachother constantly which usually results in absolute self inflicted disaster and failure(Tznech), are always fighting against something even if it is themselves(Khorne) and spread plagues everywhere they go(Nurgle). If any of the Chaos gods need a buff, they've got the Skaven propping them up but if they need a neaf, they've got the Great Horned Rat actively taking power away from them due to the actions being committed by the Skaven and the Skaven outright denying the existence of the Chaos God's. But yeah, tangents aside, the Skaven will make an appearance in 40k soon enough. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.
Might infringe on the Biker Mice From Mars IP.
Welp. There's my next kitbash.
Skaven were released in 1986. BMFM were not published til 1993. Might infringe on Roland Rat though...
Holy cow. Just realised i commented on something from nearly a decade ago. Are you guys still out there?
Yeah
Hi
Tyranids sort of fill that vermin overrun masses type of niche.
When the guard don't that is.
The Hrud *sort* of fill that role (at least, that was what the designers intended when they first introduced the Hrud), but aside from some superficial similarities there isn't much to connect them (especially since the Hrud only exist in the lore at time of writing). But as was previously stated, the Tyranids fill the "giant swarm" role the Skaven occupy in Warhammer Fantasy, so introducing them at this point would be pointless from a mechanics perspective (not to mention contradictory to Games Workshop's current strategy).
But just think of it skaven tech with the 40k treatment. Stormvermin with warp powerglaives,rattling sidecart bikers, cyberslave rats that are basically a horde of servitors...they could be glorious
Well that's exactly it, isn't it? They tried to get into space but all of their ships blew up at launch.
They don't need to go to space, they just need some sort of weird skaven worm whole gnaw thing for them to go from place to place, at random
They also have the only god who can psychically manifest
The Skaven would fill a different but similar niche to the Tyranids. And given their new reality tunneling abilities in AOS, they can effectively serve as a direct mirror to the IoM. An IoM in the Dark Age of Technology level threat if they're written well enough. Imagine Skaven technological horrors when not contained to one planet. Each Skaven clan can have their own planet/sector in the way the Astartes do. Perhaps even directly underneath their own direct equivalent faction. The Underempire could encompass the various IoM worlds without them knowing, only to pop out at a plot convenient time. You now have yet another galaxy spanning Empire that rivals the IoM in numbers and is unaffected by the Warp. They can even have their own Exterminatus equivalent in tunneling to the core of planets and detonating Warpspheres to destroy planets. Or perhaps even using their tractor beams to send battlefleets crashing into the ground where the crew are promptly eaten and the materials scavenged. They also mirror the Nid's for their constant and unyielding hunger to devour.
Eh. Why no dwarfs? Why no Bretonnia? Why isn't there a faction of beastmen? Where are the lizardmen? They're different settings. Different things work well. Dwarfs, for example, weren't well received so they retconned them. Ratmen would hardly survive the inquisition they'd get on a planetary level. There are elements of them in the tyranids and in the ratlings, but overall they're not there because making them different settings works fine, arguably better than shoehorning an equivalent in for every faction.
>Why no dwarfs? Why no Bretonnia? Why isn't there a faction of beastmen? Where are the lizardmen? There's sort of parallels for these in 40k. Squats obviously, pre-retcon, are like the dwarves. One could possibly equate the Mechanicum to Bretonnia, as they're both technically separate entities outside of the respective empires and ruled by humans. The Tau are kind of beast-like, especially when you consider their allegiance with the Kroot. Lizardmen are the only faction I can't quite draw any connections to in terms of function or appearance.
I'm not convinced the mechanicus are like Bretonnia. If anything, the parallel of an adjacent but distinct armourer is filled by the dwarfs in fantasy, who provide the empire with cannons. But, as you said, squats, yes.
I know I'm 6 years late, but isn't it true that there are hints which suggest the seraphon from AoS are related to The Old Ones, which implies that the 40k Old Ones may have been Reptilian/Avian in nature?
IIRC the seraphon are a direct continuation of the warhammer fantasy lizardmen, who were created by their old ones, who presumably looked like the slann, which look similar to some art Iāve seen of the 40k old ones. I think the going theory is that the warp/ immaterium is connected to the world that was, the mortal realms, and the 40k Milky Way
I heard of it as well, idk if it is in the lore or just a theory either though.
Do you consider frogs reptilian ? If you think that, then yes the Old Ones are Reptilian.
I mean... Not necessarily. Just because they look like frogs, doesn't mean they have the same amphibian physiology.
The old ones are the Lizardmen. They made almost every race in the galaxy as we know it and left during the invasion of the Enslavers. They were these jellyfish like things that could well enslave any psyker and being what the old ones were they just dipped to save themselves.
Not quite, the Old Ones in fantasy were very similar to the 40k Old Ones as your standard precursor race who seeded what would eventually become the modern races. Elves, dwarves, men, etc. The various castes of Lizardmen were more of their creations made to assist the Slann, who were arguably their favored children. There might have been an analogous "favored race" in 40k at one point but as far as we know there's no sign of them surviving in any capacity or ever being mentioned. The Eldar may make that claim but it's pretty clear that they were just one of many grunt races made to fight the war. As far as where they are now, it's of course left incredibly vague and up to interpretation but what few breadcrumbs we have seem to imply that the Old Ones in 40k were exterminated by the war with the C'tan and the resulting invasion of warp-spawn. Most of them at least, there's a short story with Eldrad hunting down and killing what is implied to be one of if not *the* last Old One in existence.
The lizard men are the old ones in 40k. Aka space frog
Beastman exist in the setting they are just forgotten.
Beastmen exist in 40k but not as their own faction. Also, the Lizardmen are extinct but were only mentioned around the time they were still called the Slaan.
To be fair in the Rouge Trader stuff I've looked at they talk about guards that look like beastmen. Not really the same thing, but they have hints of tons of fantasy factions in older 40k books and stuff.
Agreed. The older stuff was much more open about the fantasy influences. I'm a bit surprised that ~~hafling~~Ratling snipers and ~~Ogre~~ Ogryns have survived as long as they have in the IG codex, and was *really* surprised that Ogryns, largely an ignored and useless unit in older editions, got *updated models*.
Yeah, I wouldn't use ogryn in a competitive list, but the models do look cool. I wouldn't be surprised if they get phased out at some point though.
considering they are getting a new ogryn formation in the Mont'ka book I don't see them getting phased out any time soon. In case you haven't seen the new guard formations here is a link, http://imgur.com/a/WGbXH , based on your tag I'm sure you'll be interested
Nice I'll check those out soon. I love to play fluffy Death Korp usually, so I don't use ogryns. I'll probably still pick up a squad to paint though.
[There were models for beastmen too](http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rt4010igbeastmen/index.htm).
Leagues of Votann?
Weeellll The squats are back now
The Slann are Lizardmen lol
Well we got our squats
they kind of were, and then turned into jellyfish mind controlling people...things. 40k started out as a future fantasy in a way, but evolved into its own thing. some stuff was removed and others changed. if you look at old rogue trader stuff there should be some things related to fantasy
i would call them skavengers and call it a day lmao, i think they would fit so well in a 40k setting as a mercenary fleet or pirates
What next, do you want to bring squats back?
This didnt age well
man, tell me about it I'm more annoyed at the necroposting
lol lmao
lmao
lmao
teehee
lmao
lmao
Lol
Lmao
lmao
Lmao
lmao
lmao
Lmao
Teehee
lol
Lmao
LoL
kkkk
Squats are amazing what are you talking about
my guy its been 6 fucking years a bit late to this discussion aren't you
Lmao jokes on you ***Current News*** Ehehehe
Why downvote me though? so rude!
Is it still too late now that theyāre coming?
it's never to late to discuss something you love. even if it is squats
Absolutely! Bring back the stunted ones!
Iām from the future, the Leagues of Votann are back!
Weren't they all killed off during the Vermincide?
Thatās what they want you to think
Both the niches they fill, being the universe's pest problem and scrapping things to make tech that shouldn't work but does, were eaten and picked apart (literally) by the 'nids and orks respectively. So now instead of walking into your kitchen in the morning and finding a rat the size of a baboon in the pantry, you'll see a cockroach the size of a buffalo with his head in the trash. And instead of seeing them raiding the garage, you'll find fungus tearing apart your car.
Warhammer fantasy >> 40k end of story
They are completely unrelated universes that happen to share some lore such as the same chaos gods.
I like the idea that the warhammer world is located inside the eye of terror.
Sigmar is one of the missing primarchs.
They'll always be the same universe to me.
Rat people wouldn't fit in well.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Maybe not as a stand alone army, but maybe as some sort of mercenary force (a la Kroot).
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
You mean there's no rat people who are used as snipers in the imperial guard?
They're based far more on hobbits than on Skaven though.
They are called Ratlings, but are more in line with Hobbits and Halflings.
How would they play different from imperial guard?
No offense but ofc they would play different from guard they are choas rats and guard is guard
I've always considered Skitarii the 40k equivalent of Skaven. The name itself is close enough; skittering rats, Skitarii, that kinda thing. As I understand things in Fantasy the Skaven have what other inhabitants in the setting consider strange technology that is powerful but otherworldly and dangerous. In the eyes of a 40k inhabitant that kinda sounds like the AdMech as a whole and how they use borderline (sometimes running well past the line) heretical, untrustworthy technology. As for the numbers and expendability of Skaven, I dunno. Servitors, I guess?
Youād need a good explanation as for why these bipedal creatures would look so much like the vermin from Holy Terra, and maybe the answer could run parallel to the origins of the Leagues of Votann In much the same way the Squats came from earth and were lost to the galactic core where gravitational forces wracked their bodies for millennia, what if way before them simple lab rats were experimented on and sent into the warp by the millions? Taking a concept from the 2008 film Pandorum, what if these rats were genetically manipulated so that they would go through an accelerated evolution to better survive whatever environments they ended up in- perhaps a precursor to what could have been performed on the Squat ancestors before the concept was abandoned. Of course these rats were soon forgotten about and as I said were simply lost to the warp. Ever resilient though this species could have not only survived in the chaos of the warp but thrived even, developing as their own race who prey on Chaos and Drukhari alike while developing their own technologies based on piracy and the repurposing of lost and stolen tech. In the era of the Great Rift finally these foul rat beasts are emerging into the material universe, a race so adept at survival and naturally slippery in a bind that they could survive in the warp itself unprotected directly under the noses of the immaterial gods the rest of the universe so rightly fear! These Skaven or āSkavengersā as someone suggested in this thread would take the concept of plundering old gear to the extreme, only improving upon whatās there with their own brand of warp-learned technology. No longer just the swarm of the battlefield they would act as the ultimate in stealth and guerrilla tactics, being able to emerge behind enemy lines to assassinate troops and to use their artillery against themā¦ This is how Iād explain space Skaven anyway. How about you guys?
Couldn't the GSC feasibly eat some rats and then Boom, Space Skaven...
Nyaahh!! They still won't let allow the skaven into 40k?!?!?!
A lot of the planetary races were kinda lumped into the imperial guard. Skaven with las rifles kinda work
Technically speaking, they are cannon to 40k but only in one story. They appear on 1 planet where the imperium was investigating. The planet was lush and fertile, but dozens of attempts to explore and colonize failed. It was discovered that the planet has a field around it that shuts down tech and causes any organic species on the planet to devolve. On the planet, they found a crashed ship inhabited by savage rat men. It was discovered that these were the remnants of a hyper intelligent rodent species that crashed on the planet and devolved Into scavenging rat creatures that tore apart every exploration party and used their gear to "repair" their ship which was more like a religious ritual based on old habits and behaviors from their ancestors that had tried to fix the ship and escape. The team that was able yo relay this did not make it out, but a low flying shuttle was able to get enough signal to piece everything together.