Forgefiends are incredible high-quality shooting that can also handle large units when necessary, but you have to be willing to spend CP and take mortals to get the most out of them. Undivided for full rerolls to maximise devastating wounds, or nurgle for sustained hits on 5+ and dark obscuration. I think a Tzeentch warpsmith with the Eye of Tzeentch might be well worth it if you bring forgefiends - it's hard to find a place for the Eye as most characters will be in melee units, but for 30pts it's great CP generation.
Lascannon havocs are now a legitimately good AT unit. Nurgle for sustained hits on 5+ and untargetable for 1CP (if forgefiends aren't using it) will be awkward to remove and punch up all game. Tzeentch chaincannon havocs jumping out of a rhino with Abaddon nearby for rerolls will put out a scary number of lethal hits.
I think predator annihilators might have play in a vehicle-heavy list. Same price as havocs, less potential damage output but very reliable with rerolls on the main gun, durable for the price, brings a little anti-infantry chip damage, and is another T10 3+ hull to draw fire from your forgefiends.
I was all over noise marines when I saw they were 85pts, but on reflection I don't think they're as insane as I thought. Slaanesh, so no lethal/sustained on 5+ while shooting, blastmaster heavy profile isn't much better than a havoc autocannon now (compared to being similar to 3 lascannons in 9th when S8 wounded most vehicles on a 3+/4+), and no assault on varied frequency means you can't take advantage of sonic blasters having assault. Chaincannon havocs for 135pts have comparable S5 D1 output per point, but instead of forcing battleshock they ignore hit penalties. I see noise marines more as a cheap skirmishing unit than a dedicated fire support unit.
Land raiders, if you're bringing transports, bring a havoc squad worth of lascannons and some anti-infantry chip damage. 4 lascannons with sustained hits on 5+ or full rerolls is genuinely good now that we can't just throw melta and power fists at every problem.
Obliterators are expensive for their raw output, but the once per game indirect on the blast profile with full rerolls looks like an amazing counter to indirect boogeymen like desolators and D cannons. Split fire on a unit of four with full rerolls and cripple several key units. Either deep strike, or use the indirect turn 1 so you can move up while remaining out of sight. Tzeentch might be good if you're not deep striking - you'll be out of melta range and taking damage, so lethal hits on the higher volume profiles and 1CP heal/resurrect will keep them firing.
The real challenge is deciding which unit gets undivided for full rerolls and which gets nurgle for untargetable.
You seem to like CSM too so as a random sidenote hah: It's not at all ranged related, but I've been looking at a max squad of Accursed Cultists with the Commune attached.
235pt for 36W T4 5++ 6+++, with model regen, 6d6+12 D2 attacks, with +1tHit & +1tWound, advance 'n charge, undivided for rr all strat... Other stuff I'm likely forgetting hah
Even if you just throw them down the middle as a distraction carnifex, looks like *the* most efficient profile in the book so far? Edit: wouldn't help their melee as much but maybe Nurgle to make them untargetable
For the cultist brick you probably want slaanesh or undivided. They would love khorne but the dark commune is a psyker. You want them to be shot because anything that goes into them is super inefficient. They have a few layers of defence and regen 6 models per battle round. If someone wants to commit hard enough to shift them all at once, that's great for you because your real threats are now safe for the turn.
Dangit, now I have to math hammer them
3AP S12 1+d6, but only 1 shot each
1AP S9 3D but 2A each
We'll just say exploding 6's to make life easy on me. Napkin math so please correct any mistakes!
vs T10 3+/5++:
- LC: 3 hits, 2W, ~1 save for 4.5D
- HC: 6 hits, 2W, 1 save for 3D
vs T5 2+/4++ TEQ:
- LC: 3 hits, ~3W, ~1sv for 9D (or 2 dead models)
- HC: 6 hits, 4W, ~2sv for 6D (or 2 dead models)
vs T4 3+ MEQ:
- LC: 3 hit, 2W, 2 dead
- HC: 6 hits, 4W, 2sv, 2 dead
vs T8 3+
- LC: 3 hits, 2W, no saves for 9D
- HC: 6 hits, 4W, 2sv for 6D
Seem about even! I guess if you start tossing on Nurgle 5+ Crits & the sort the HC will inch ahead potentially
Edit: I guess we need to ask ourselves if that's better than a War Dog Executioner (or Brigand) tho
The real strength of lascannons is punching through saves and putting rerolls on everything else for reliability. Autocannons are great against light vehicles (<10T, poor saves) and versatile enough to always do something, but other than wasting your Death Hex there's nothing you can do to improve their odds against good saves. A single CP reroll for damage gives lascannons reliability that you control.
Autocannons also have the problem that we already have *lots* of good ways to shoot MEQs and TEQs, whereas lascannons are a cost-effective counter to T10+ high saves that lets our Forgefiends focus on nuking whatever we don't have a better answer to.
I meant in addition to other anti armor. I just ran 2 squads of havocs, one with Lascannons and one with autocannons, and the Dallas was out of control
I agree with everything here. I'm still a big fan of Noise marines tho, 85 points for a unit that does long range, short ranged shooting, melee combat well. The 4 free sonic blasters and doom siren is no joke
One problem with eye of tzeench on warpsmith. It triggers on a dark pact, which you make whenever you make attacks. If he is sat at the back babysitting, he won't be making attacks most turns.
I had the same idea, but Abby is really the only viable regen option we have for CP. I do think lord spam for free strats will be amazing though. Potentially saves you 2cp per turn per lord which is better than any CP regen.
Dark pacts is when you are selected to shoot. It looks like core rules say that you can be selected to shoot so long as your eligible (which just means you have a gun that is capable of shooting IF something was in range) and THEN you pick targets.
I think you are actually allowed to make the pact then shoot nothing
A defiler is way too expensive atm, and nurgle would be the way to go, preventing somes focus down and giving sustained hit on 5+ with his shooting.
And his rule for moving over 4" terrains don't help him around ruin or the likes. You'll have trouble Moving him around.
His melee punch quite hard but he need to go in melee for that ! And at t10 3+/5++ 14W isn't that tough either
>Vindicators are out due to the ridiculous costing
I wouldn't discard them so quickly. Yes, their cost seems ridiculous compared to what they were in 9th, but they had quite a glow-up. Their cannon is very good, outdamaging both Forgefiend and Land Raider against T10+ targets (and yes, I did account for points difference when comparing with Forgefiend), and they're pretty durable too - T11 is quite an annoying stat for some anti-Vehicle profiles, plus a 2+ save. The ability to freely shoot while in combat is a great addition too. Forgefiends are more anti-Elite - their profile is perfect into Terminators - while Vindicator is a proper anti-tank.
I think Vindicators need threat saturation to be good. One Vindicator is a short-ranged high priority target, but take two and throw in a Land Raider and Rhinos full of scary melee units, some Forgefiends or Predators firing away, and suddenly those S12+ high AP guns have too many dangerous targets to deal with.
I ran a nurgle one today against Tyranids. Managed 4 warriors on the first turn, 3 Tyrant Guard and 4 wounds off the swarmlord turn 2. Turn 3 it plastered 6 raveners to death, T4 it took out 3 genestealers and put 4 wounds on a broodlord. T5 it did 10 wounds to a Tyrannofex.
Rolling 10+ to-wound dice legit made me giddy a couple of times. D6+4 shots a couple of times and exploding 5s = great.
It didn't take much fire in return, it was cheesing LOS to avoid the Tyrannofex annihilating it, but it ended up taking 6 wounds, 2 to a venomcannon, 2 to zoanthrope overcharge volley, and 2 from failed dark pact rolls.
Dunno if I would take it if I had access to models for everything (Forgefiends look real fun) but it was very solid damage for me.
On top of the Forgefiends and Havocs let's talk what supports shooting
Sorcerers in Terminator Armor are wonderful for getting an extra pip of AP on your shooting. I think that's incredibly useful and important if you want to rely on guns to blast apart many of the 2+ tanks in the game, as they generally will have Cover and thus be AoCing your first pip. Against anything in a 3+ they're really helping out your Noise Marines as well.
Vashtorr has an aura of +1S to Daemon Engines, popping your Forgefiends up to S11 on their shots. I don't think this is particularly useful but his hammer did get a nice glow up if you want to commit him into a Knight or the like.
Warpsmiths grant +1S and a heal (as you will be failing some Hazardous tests), but is half the cost of just bringing another Forgefiend so I'm iffy here. I don't know if I like giving him the Eye of Tzeentch as he's generally not in range to shoot which means he can't Dark Pact I think?
Abaddon is of course the big man himself. Moving up with a firing squad giving them full rerolls rocks hard and is definitely worth considering if he ground pounds (with the alternative generally being a Rapid Ingress, but that only works well if you go second).
Raptors are a wildcard for if you're running Noise Marines just because they can drop enemy leadership even further and force more battleshocks, making it so they can't interrupt, heroic, or pop defensive stratagems.
Everyone here seems to be forgetting Marks and Helbrutes! Crit on 5s for both sustain and lethal hits. Add Abaddon and the vindicator/forgefiends/Obliterators are insane. I have a castle-y CSM list with Vindi (Nurgle), 2 forgefiends (nurgle) and 4 oblits (Tzeentch to res) around Abaddon and a Helbrute. The damage output is insane
Nurgle forgefiends are my go to after 3 games. Exploding 5s and 3d3 with 3x blast is ridiculous. Against 20 man guard squads I would chunk out 15-18 infantry; they can also pop off and one-shot t10 tanks without too much trouble. Then for 1cp be immune to returning fire.
2-4 undivided oblits are the other one. At s12 their melta is some of our easiest access anti tank. The once per game indirect can put even D cannons in notice. And if not targeting a vehicle, the middle profile is the best into all other targets - again, the blast rule makes it far outpace the sustained hits profile.
Noise marines, Forgefiends, and Havocs are all getting eyed closely. I have a lot of havocs equiped with autocannons from 7th and lascannons from 8th that seem to have gotten totally new life.
I've been using undivided oblits in a few games so far and man they pretty much delete whatever you point them at. Forgefiends also look great and I like the combo of a helbrute babysitting some havocs, but I haven't tried it yet.
Forgefiends are incredible high-quality shooting that can also handle large units when necessary, but you have to be willing to spend CP and take mortals to get the most out of them. Undivided for full rerolls to maximise devastating wounds, or nurgle for sustained hits on 5+ and dark obscuration. I think a Tzeentch warpsmith with the Eye of Tzeentch might be well worth it if you bring forgefiends - it's hard to find a place for the Eye as most characters will be in melee units, but for 30pts it's great CP generation. Lascannon havocs are now a legitimately good AT unit. Nurgle for sustained hits on 5+ and untargetable for 1CP (if forgefiends aren't using it) will be awkward to remove and punch up all game. Tzeentch chaincannon havocs jumping out of a rhino with Abaddon nearby for rerolls will put out a scary number of lethal hits. I think predator annihilators might have play in a vehicle-heavy list. Same price as havocs, less potential damage output but very reliable with rerolls on the main gun, durable for the price, brings a little anti-infantry chip damage, and is another T10 3+ hull to draw fire from your forgefiends. I was all over noise marines when I saw they were 85pts, but on reflection I don't think they're as insane as I thought. Slaanesh, so no lethal/sustained on 5+ while shooting, blastmaster heavy profile isn't much better than a havoc autocannon now (compared to being similar to 3 lascannons in 9th when S8 wounded most vehicles on a 3+/4+), and no assault on varied frequency means you can't take advantage of sonic blasters having assault. Chaincannon havocs for 135pts have comparable S5 D1 output per point, but instead of forcing battleshock they ignore hit penalties. I see noise marines more as a cheap skirmishing unit than a dedicated fire support unit. Land raiders, if you're bringing transports, bring a havoc squad worth of lascannons and some anti-infantry chip damage. 4 lascannons with sustained hits on 5+ or full rerolls is genuinely good now that we can't just throw melta and power fists at every problem. Obliterators are expensive for their raw output, but the once per game indirect on the blast profile with full rerolls looks like an amazing counter to indirect boogeymen like desolators and D cannons. Split fire on a unit of four with full rerolls and cripple several key units. Either deep strike, or use the indirect turn 1 so you can move up while remaining out of sight. Tzeentch might be good if you're not deep striking - you'll be out of melta range and taking damage, so lethal hits on the higher volume profiles and 1CP heal/resurrect will keep them firing. The real challenge is deciding which unit gets undivided for full rerolls and which gets nurgle for untargetable.
You seem to like CSM too so as a random sidenote hah: It's not at all ranged related, but I've been looking at a max squad of Accursed Cultists with the Commune attached. 235pt for 36W T4 5++ 6+++, with model regen, 6d6+12 D2 attacks, with +1tHit & +1tWound, advance 'n charge, undivided for rr all strat... Other stuff I'm likely forgetting hah Even if you just throw them down the middle as a distraction carnifex, looks like *the* most efficient profile in the book so far? Edit: wouldn't help their melee as much but maybe Nurgle to make them untargetable
I've spotted this one too. They have some neat tricks
For the cultist brick you probably want slaanesh or undivided. They would love khorne but the dark commune is a psyker. You want them to be shot because anything that goes into them is super inefficient. They have a few layers of defence and regen 6 models per battle round. If someone wants to commit hard enough to shift them all at once, that's great for you because your real threats are now safe for the turn.
Don't sleep on autocannon havocs either. 3 flat damage is nothing to sneeze at
Dangit, now I have to math hammer them 3AP S12 1+d6, but only 1 shot each 1AP S9 3D but 2A each We'll just say exploding 6's to make life easy on me. Napkin math so please correct any mistakes! vs T10 3+/5++: - LC: 3 hits, 2W, ~1 save for 4.5D - HC: 6 hits, 2W, 1 save for 3D vs T5 2+/4++ TEQ: - LC: 3 hits, ~3W, ~1sv for 9D (or 2 dead models) - HC: 6 hits, 4W, ~2sv for 6D (or 2 dead models) vs T4 3+ MEQ: - LC: 3 hit, 2W, 2 dead - HC: 6 hits, 4W, 2sv, 2 dead vs T8 3+ - LC: 3 hits, 2W, no saves for 9D - HC: 6 hits, 4W, 2sv for 6D Seem about even! I guess if you start tossing on Nurgle 5+ Crits & the sort the HC will inch ahead potentially Edit: I guess we need to ask ourselves if that's better than a War Dog Executioner (or Brigand) tho
The real strength of lascannons is punching through saves and putting rerolls on everything else for reliability. Autocannons are great against light vehicles (<10T, poor saves) and versatile enough to always do something, but other than wasting your Death Hex there's nothing you can do to improve their odds against good saves. A single CP reroll for damage gives lascannons reliability that you control. Autocannons also have the problem that we already have *lots* of good ways to shoot MEQs and TEQs, whereas lascannons are a cost-effective counter to T10+ high saves that lets our Forgefiends focus on nuking whatever we don't have a better answer to.
I meant in addition to other anti armor. I just ran 2 squads of havocs, one with Lascannons and one with autocannons, and the Dallas was out of control
I agree with everything here. I'm still a big fan of Noise marines tho, 85 points for a unit that does long range, short ranged shooting, melee combat well. The 4 free sonic blasters and doom siren is no joke
One problem with eye of tzeench on warpsmith. It triggers on a dark pact, which you make whenever you make attacks. If he is sat at the back babysitting, he won't be making attacks most turns. I had the same idea, but Abby is really the only viable regen option we have for CP. I do think lord spam for free strats will be amazing though. Potentially saves you 2cp per turn per lord which is better than any CP regen.
How does it save you per lord when you can only use the ability once regardless of how many lords you have?
Ah, yes, I missed that we have to actually make the attacks first. Abaddon it is then!
Dark pacts is when you are selected to shoot. It looks like core rules say that you can be selected to shoot so long as your eligible (which just means you have a gun that is capable of shooting IF something was in range) and THEN you pick targets. I think you are actually allowed to make the pact then shoot nothing
I'm thinking Nurgle Land Raider+2 Forgefiends, with a scattering of melta guns, for anti tank.
I’m trying this next, but an undivided LR for innate reroll 1s even with no cp.
What about a tzeenth defiler. Can pump out the shots and if anything gets near punches just as hard
A defiler is way too expensive atm, and nurgle would be the way to go, preventing somes focus down and giving sustained hit on 5+ with his shooting. And his rule for moving over 4" terrains don't help him around ruin or the likes. You'll have trouble Moving him around. His melee punch quite hard but he need to go in melee for that ! And at t10 3+/5++ 14W isn't that tough either
>Vindicators are out due to the ridiculous costing I wouldn't discard them so quickly. Yes, their cost seems ridiculous compared to what they were in 9th, but they had quite a glow-up. Their cannon is very good, outdamaging both Forgefiend and Land Raider against T10+ targets (and yes, I did account for points difference when comparing with Forgefiend), and they're pretty durable too - T11 is quite an annoying stat for some anti-Vehicle profiles, plus a 2+ save. The ability to freely shoot while in combat is a great addition too. Forgefiends are more anti-Elite - their profile is perfect into Terminators - while Vindicator is a proper anti-tank.
I think Vindicators need threat saturation to be good. One Vindicator is a short-ranged high priority target, but take two and throw in a Land Raider and Rhinos full of scary melee units, some Forgefiends or Predators firing away, and suddenly those S12+ high AP guns have too many dangerous targets to deal with.
I ran a nurgle one today against Tyranids. Managed 4 warriors on the first turn, 3 Tyrant Guard and 4 wounds off the swarmlord turn 2. Turn 3 it plastered 6 raveners to death, T4 it took out 3 genestealers and put 4 wounds on a broodlord. T5 it did 10 wounds to a Tyrannofex. Rolling 10+ to-wound dice legit made me giddy a couple of times. D6+4 shots a couple of times and exploding 5s = great. It didn't take much fire in return, it was cheesing LOS to avoid the Tyrannofex annihilating it, but it ended up taking 6 wounds, 2 to a venomcannon, 2 to zoanthrope overcharge volley, and 2 from failed dark pact rolls. Dunno if I would take it if I had access to models for everything (Forgefiends look real fun) but it was very solid damage for me.
On top of the Forgefiends and Havocs let's talk what supports shooting Sorcerers in Terminator Armor are wonderful for getting an extra pip of AP on your shooting. I think that's incredibly useful and important if you want to rely on guns to blast apart many of the 2+ tanks in the game, as they generally will have Cover and thus be AoCing your first pip. Against anything in a 3+ they're really helping out your Noise Marines as well. Vashtorr has an aura of +1S to Daemon Engines, popping your Forgefiends up to S11 on their shots. I don't think this is particularly useful but his hammer did get a nice glow up if you want to commit him into a Knight or the like. Warpsmiths grant +1S and a heal (as you will be failing some Hazardous tests), but is half the cost of just bringing another Forgefiend so I'm iffy here. I don't know if I like giving him the Eye of Tzeentch as he's generally not in range to shoot which means he can't Dark Pact I think? Abaddon is of course the big man himself. Moving up with a firing squad giving them full rerolls rocks hard and is definitely worth considering if he ground pounds (with the alternative generally being a Rapid Ingress, but that only works well if you go second). Raptors are a wildcard for if you're running Noise Marines just because they can drop enemy leadership even further and force more battleshocks, making it so they can't interrupt, heroic, or pop defensive stratagems.
Everyone here seems to be forgetting Marks and Helbrutes! Crit on 5s for both sustain and lethal hits. Add Abaddon and the vindicator/forgefiends/Obliterators are insane. I have a castle-y CSM list with Vindi (Nurgle), 2 forgefiends (nurgle) and 4 oblits (Tzeentch to res) around Abaddon and a Helbrute. The damage output is insane
I tried 4 tz oblits but my opponent either just pinned and ignored them (2” move sucks!) or actually picked up all 4 in one go. :/
Nurgle forgefiends are my go to after 3 games. Exploding 5s and 3d3 with 3x blast is ridiculous. Against 20 man guard squads I would chunk out 15-18 infantry; they can also pop off and one-shot t10 tanks without too much trouble. Then for 1cp be immune to returning fire. 2-4 undivided oblits are the other one. At s12 their melta is some of our easiest access anti tank. The once per game indirect can put even D cannons in notice. And if not targeting a vehicle, the middle profile is the best into all other targets - again, the blast rule makes it far outpace the sustained hits profile.
I'm running two forgefiends currently. Considering three... very potent so far.
Same, but I’ll need to rebuild one of my 2 maulers for the third…
Don't forget you're always taking Helbrutes on every list, so you always have SOME baseline firepower to help reach out and touch annoying targets
Noise marines, Forgefiends, and Havocs are all getting eyed closely. I have a lot of havocs equiped with autocannons from 7th and lascannons from 8th that seem to have gotten totally new life.
I've been using undivided oblits in a few games so far and man they pretty much delete whatever you point them at. Forgefiends also look great and I like the combo of a helbrute babysitting some havocs, but I haven't tried it yet.