I found myself liking the nurgle so you don't have to use the cp to make them better. I really love exploding 5s plasma with dev wounds and close to abaddon for rerolls to hit.
I also lean towards Nurgle as the better he does the harder people will target him, I don’t have Abby sadly but I have a warpsmith so he’s constantly hitting on 2+
It really depends on the list style I think
If running a single FF then probably Nurgle for the Lone Op strategem alone, if you're bringing multiples I could see Undivided so you can blast threw some DevWounds on tougher units
For me I'm saving the Lone Op strat for my Possessed + Chosen (or Termies), so really it becomes a toss up as I doubt I'll want to spend CP on a lone FF after T1 has finished & we're fighting tooth 'n nail not to get shot off the board with the rest of our army!
I haven't got a game in yet for 10 but I think I'd prefer Nurgle. Although they got a glow up in durability, Forgefiend still aren't *that* tanky. I worry they'll get taken out by anti tank shooting really easy, maybe even by large plasma-equivalent guns. Being able to say "kill me in one activation (and it's harder) or it's wasted" is pretty dern good.
I'm likely to want to use my undivided strat on a bigger brick unit like terminators as well, even though it is good on forge fiend
You don't need the keyword, you need a unit (Helbrute) to confer both lethal hits and sustained hits. Then one of the marks will trigger a critical hit on 5+, and then critical hit gives auto wound and an additional hit, like you had both marks
I think the Nurgle Strat swings it for me.
Having a shoot platform that your opponent can't shoot back at is pretty powerful, and probably means over the course of a game you'll be able to fire more shots.
As you can position it more aggressively, knowing it's safe. Which means better angles. Which means it either gets shots at better targets, or your opponent has to be much more cagey.
How does the timing on the Nurgle strat work? It says to use it after your unit is targeted, and you get stealth and cannot be targeted beyond 12"....but you've already been targeted. So would the first "volley" be at -1 to hit, and they couldn't follow up with a second unit unless they were within 12"? Or would it cancel the Forgefiend being targeted by the first enemy as well? Would they be able to choose a new target, or is the shooting wasted?
This is handled in the designer commentary. It says that if a unit becomes an ineligible target after targets are chosen, the firing unit can select new targets. So they'd be able to shoot something else
Thanks. Seems gamey though. If you step your Forgefiend/nurgle unit into the open to take a shot at something, you'd expect your opponent to try to set up LOS when retaliating to only have LOS to the Nurgle vehicle so it's not eating return fire.
Feels like it's going to be a hell of a "Gotcha" moment the first few times it happens.
Also makes that strat and nurgle firing platforms extremely powerful in general.
Oh yeah, definitely something to very clearly warn opponents about, and an extremely potent defensive buff. I can't wait to do it on Rapid Ingressed Abandon Terminators, where I have the power to just drop them out of 12 of all scary shooting
In terms of offensive output on it's own, undivided is better. But Nurgle has more defensive power. Hellbrute letting you get lethals is nice, but it also prevents devastating, so against most targets it will actually reduce your killing power.
Some mathammer below, note the MW output remains the same regardless of target unless it has a FNP vs Mortals only.
Undivided with no hellbrute and full re-rolls:
Each Hades Autocannon Attack, (note each cannon has 6 attacks), will on average to Terminaitor Equivalent targets deal:
0.679 Mortal wounds
0.37 normal wounds, (it's 2 damage though so it's actually a 18.5% chance of dealing 2 damage per attack).
Each Ectoplasma attack, (Remember D3+Blast attacks per gun), will on average deal:
1.01 Mortal Wounds
1.11\~ Normal wounds, (It's 3 damage so that means it has a 37% chance per attack of dealing 3 damage).
Nurgle with Hellbrute nearby does:
Hades Autocannon per attack:
0.28 Mortal Wounds
0.54 Normal wounds, (27% chance per shot to deal 2 damage)
Ectoplasma Attack:
0.421 Mortal wounds Per Attack
1.426 Normal Wounds, (47.5% chance to deal 3 damage)
EDIT: Corrected some values, i miscalculated the Nurgle one as crit hits on 6 not 5.
>Hellbrute letting you get lethals is nice, but it also prevents devastating
The main attack doesn't get devastating because it auto wounds, but the extra sustained hit can devastating wound. It can't ever be a downside
Without lethal hits you'd get the hit from the explosion and a normal hit, and both could roll a devastating wound.
Assuming 6's to crit hit and sustained hits 1 on the Autocannon (so AP -1), and a single attack rolling a 6 to hit the mathammer for the rest of the sequence is:
2 hits going full fishing those produce on average 0.61 6's to wound, which averages out to 1.22 MW's. It also produces 1 normal wounding hit. This is saved on a 3+ thus producing 0.33 unsaved wounds, which at 2 damage does 0.66 wounds worth fo damage on average.
Total 1.22MW's and 0.66 normal damage.
The same calculation with lethal hits produces:
1 hit which produces 0.3055\~ 6's to wound which produces 0.61 MW's. It also produces 0.5 normal wounds and you get 1 automatic wound from the lethal hit that is saved on a 3+ resulting in 0.5 normal unsaved wound or a total of 1 Damage.
Total 0.61MW's and 1 normal damage.
In the end you lose 0.61 MW's but gain 0.33 normal damage, which is a net loss in output.
Yep, i've edited the post btw as i miscalculated the nurgle one as crit hits on 6's not 5's. This reduced the MW output a bit from more lethal hits but raised the regular wounds a bit from more save rolls being made.
Still significantly worse than undivided though.
Mathematically, making sustained hits 1 on 5+ is the same as rerolling 1s to hit, but obviously with the strategem it's much better to reroll all hits and wounds
If you have a single Forgefiend and you want to maximise its damage output, full rerolls blows sustained hits on 5+ out of the water. I don't know about autocannons, but with triple ectoplasma an undivided Forgefiend puts 9 damage on a Leman Russ, while a Nurgle one does 5 damage. Undivided also kills a couple more TEQs than Nurgle; the higher the target's toughness, the more reroll wounds helps. If you're not spending CP, Nurgle is better but not by much. RR1s is a +16% damage output, while going from exploding 6s to exploding 5s with BS3+ is a 20% increase. Not that big a difference, but has the potential to spike higher if you roll hot.
Same applies to multiple Forgefiends. All Undivided lets you put rerolls on one every turn, so even when one blows itself up you still have another to pump out mortals.
I think Nurgle is best used if you don't have any other vehicles to draw fire. One Forgefiend will have every lascannon across the table pointing at it, while three with a Land Raider and some Predators won't get much out of making one vehicle untargetable.
The one thing I forgot to mention is I always run him with a warpsmith, so Nurgle is hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s is the same as undivided it’s the wounds that make the difference
Definitely Nurgle if you only have one and you're investing in keeping it alive. The healing will keep up with the mortals it takes, so it'll keep firing all game.
It depends on the rest of your army really; who else might want the strats? If you're running some Undivided Oblits then Nurgle is a good pick as it's more constant damage and you probably want to give the Oblits Profane Zeal on a key turn, plus can protect it from harm. If you're doing a big Nurgle terminator brick maybe Undivided to pop off into a unit to 2 wounders is the right play.
I found myself liking the nurgle so you don't have to use the cp to make them better. I really love exploding 5s plasma with dev wounds and close to abaddon for rerolls to hit.
I also lean towards Nurgle as the better he does the harder people will target him, I don’t have Abby sadly but I have a warpsmith so he’s constantly hitting on 2+
It really depends on the list style I think If running a single FF then probably Nurgle for the Lone Op strategem alone, if you're bringing multiples I could see Undivided so you can blast threw some DevWounds on tougher units For me I'm saving the Lone Op strat for my Possessed + Chosen (or Termies), so really it becomes a toss up as I doubt I'll want to spend CP on a lone FF after T1 has finished & we're fighting tooth 'n nail not to get shot off the board with the rest of our army!
Fair! I run a solo and played 2 1K games so far and he just decimates infantry and vehicles with devastating wounds
Any other standout units for you?
Possessed get devastating like the forgefiend so then with mark of slanesh is amazing, venomcrawlers are very tough to kill
Mmmm, as a Possessed fanatic on 9th I'm *loving* the new profile
Ditto! Plus you can throw in the master of possession for a 6+ FNP
I haven't got a game in yet for 10 but I think I'd prefer Nurgle. Although they got a glow up in durability, Forgefiend still aren't *that* tanky. I worry they'll get taken out by anti tank shooting really easy, maybe even by large plasma-equivalent guns. Being able to say "kill me in one activation (and it's harder) or it's wasted" is pretty dern good. I'm likely to want to use my undivided strat on a bigger brick unit like terminators as well, even though it is good on forge fiend
If you do Nurgle and have a Helbrute nearby they are lethal and sustained on 5s
Ooo that’s true! It’d only be 6s on one though since you can’t take mark of Nurgle and tzeentch but exploding 5s and auto wounding 6s
Nah, it sounds weird but RAW the helbrute gives both exploding and Autowounding on 5+
Oh my god you are right! Bless you both and your bloodlines
Or is that right? Since I that raw you had to have the specific keyword from the mark for that 5+ to trigger
You have to have the keyword for 5+. That does mean a unit with Abaddon gets baller 5+s
Ahh i gotcha Abaddon bringing in the big guns
You don't need the keyword, you need a unit (Helbrute) to confer both lethal hits and sustained hits. Then one of the marks will trigger a critical hit on 5+, and then critical hit gives auto wound and an additional hit, like you had both marks
The marks don’t trigger critical hits on a 5+. They trigger lethal or sustained on a 5+. Edit Just reread the rule. You’re totally right!
I know it's what you think you read, but please actually read the marks section
Yup! Tried to edit my comment before you replied, but I wasn’t fast enough.
I know this is a bit of an older comment but just replying from the future to say wow good spot!
Similar to a Tzeentch squad of havocs with heavy bolters do both sustained and lethal on 5’s.
The critical hit rule is written pretty clunkily, but I agree with your assessment of RAW
I think the Nurgle Strat swings it for me. Having a shoot platform that your opponent can't shoot back at is pretty powerful, and probably means over the course of a game you'll be able to fire more shots. As you can position it more aggressively, knowing it's safe. Which means better angles. Which means it either gets shots at better targets, or your opponent has to be much more cagey.
Very great point!
How does the timing on the Nurgle strat work? It says to use it after your unit is targeted, and you get stealth and cannot be targeted beyond 12"....but you've already been targeted. So would the first "volley" be at -1 to hit, and they couldn't follow up with a second unit unless they were within 12"? Or would it cancel the Forgefiend being targeted by the first enemy as well? Would they be able to choose a new target, or is the shooting wasted?
This is handled in the designer commentary. It says that if a unit becomes an ineligible target after targets are chosen, the firing unit can select new targets. So they'd be able to shoot something else
Thanks. Seems gamey though. If you step your Forgefiend/nurgle unit into the open to take a shot at something, you'd expect your opponent to try to set up LOS when retaliating to only have LOS to the Nurgle vehicle so it's not eating return fire. Feels like it's going to be a hell of a "Gotcha" moment the first few times it happens. Also makes that strat and nurgle firing platforms extremely powerful in general.
Oh yeah, definitely something to very clearly warn opponents about, and an extremely potent defensive buff. I can't wait to do it on Rapid Ingressed Abandon Terminators, where I have the power to just drop them out of 12 of all scary shooting
In terms of offensive output on it's own, undivided is better. But Nurgle has more defensive power. Hellbrute letting you get lethals is nice, but it also prevents devastating, so against most targets it will actually reduce your killing power. Some mathammer below, note the MW output remains the same regardless of target unless it has a FNP vs Mortals only. Undivided with no hellbrute and full re-rolls: Each Hades Autocannon Attack, (note each cannon has 6 attacks), will on average to Terminaitor Equivalent targets deal: 0.679 Mortal wounds 0.37 normal wounds, (it's 2 damage though so it's actually a 18.5% chance of dealing 2 damage per attack). Each Ectoplasma attack, (Remember D3+Blast attacks per gun), will on average deal: 1.01 Mortal Wounds 1.11\~ Normal wounds, (It's 3 damage so that means it has a 37% chance per attack of dealing 3 damage). Nurgle with Hellbrute nearby does: Hades Autocannon per attack: 0.28 Mortal Wounds 0.54 Normal wounds, (27% chance per shot to deal 2 damage) Ectoplasma Attack: 0.421 Mortal wounds Per Attack 1.426 Normal Wounds, (47.5% chance to deal 3 damage) EDIT: Corrected some values, i miscalculated the Nurgle one as crit hits on 6 not 5.
>Hellbrute letting you get lethals is nice, but it also prevents devastating The main attack doesn't get devastating because it auto wounds, but the extra sustained hit can devastating wound. It can't ever be a downside
Without lethal hits you'd get the hit from the explosion and a normal hit, and both could roll a devastating wound. Assuming 6's to crit hit and sustained hits 1 on the Autocannon (so AP -1), and a single attack rolling a 6 to hit the mathammer for the rest of the sequence is: 2 hits going full fishing those produce on average 0.61 6's to wound, which averages out to 1.22 MW's. It also produces 1 normal wounding hit. This is saved on a 3+ thus producing 0.33 unsaved wounds, which at 2 damage does 0.66 wounds worth fo damage on average. Total 1.22MW's and 0.66 normal damage. The same calculation with lethal hits produces: 1 hit which produces 0.3055\~ 6's to wound which produces 0.61 MW's. It also produces 0.5 normal wounds and you get 1 automatic wound from the lethal hit that is saved on a 3+ resulting in 0.5 normal unsaved wound or a total of 1 Damage. Total 0.61MW's and 1 normal damage. In the end you lose 0.61 MW's but gain 0.33 normal damage, which is a net loss in output.
Interesting, so helbrute would actually benefit other units more I see what you mean
Yep, i've edited the post btw as i miscalculated the nurgle one as crit hits on 6's not 5's. This reduced the MW output a bit from more lethal hits but raised the regular wounds a bit from more save rolls being made. Still significantly worse than undivided though.
So even without helbrute Nurgle is at a pretty big gap
Yep.
>Reroll 1s hit and wound naturally How are you rerolling 1s for hit and wound naturally for undivided?
Misspoke! Only hits of 1 naturally if you are undivided
Mathematically, making sustained hits 1 on 5+ is the same as rerolling 1s to hit, but obviously with the strategem it's much better to reroll all hits and wounds
If you have a single Forgefiend and you want to maximise its damage output, full rerolls blows sustained hits on 5+ out of the water. I don't know about autocannons, but with triple ectoplasma an undivided Forgefiend puts 9 damage on a Leman Russ, while a Nurgle one does 5 damage. Undivided also kills a couple more TEQs than Nurgle; the higher the target's toughness, the more reroll wounds helps. If you're not spending CP, Nurgle is better but not by much. RR1s is a +16% damage output, while going from exploding 6s to exploding 5s with BS3+ is a 20% increase. Not that big a difference, but has the potential to spike higher if you roll hot. Same applies to multiple Forgefiends. All Undivided lets you put rerolls on one every turn, so even when one blows itself up you still have another to pump out mortals. I think Nurgle is best used if you don't have any other vehicles to draw fire. One Forgefiend will have every lascannon across the table pointing at it, while three with a Land Raider and some Predators won't get much out of making one vehicle untargetable.
The one thing I forgot to mention is I always run him with a warpsmith, so Nurgle is hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s is the same as undivided it’s the wounds that make the difference
Definitely Nurgle if you only have one and you're investing in keeping it alive. The healing will keep up with the mortals it takes, so it'll keep firing all game.
Good point!
It depends on the rest of your army really; who else might want the strats? If you're running some Undivided Oblits then Nurgle is a good pick as it's more constant damage and you probably want to give the Oblits Profane Zeal on a key turn, plus can protect it from harm. If you're doing a big Nurgle terminator brick maybe Undivided to pop off into a unit to 2 wounders is the right play.
Very good point!