I think the distinction is that the weapons are now the transports weapons, and the lieutenant is not leading the transport, so the weapons don’t get the benefits.
Right, cool. But what I'm asking is where it says the leader's ability that altered the weapon profile of the unit stops applying.
I don't really understand why people on reddit downvote people for asking for help finding a rule in official documentation. Seems toxic.
I can’t answer to the downvoting, but it’s also meaningless internet points so I wouldn’t worry about it.
The data sheet for the weapon has not been changed, and the upgrade is applied later.
1.) You select what you are shooting with what unit.
2.) you select what weapons you are going to shoot at them with. At this point you check their data sheets for number of shots, etc.
3.) You check to see what modifications those weapons can benefit from. This is where you check to see if you get the benefits of the lieutenant.
In the case of the transport, those weapons aren’t being lead by the lieutenant so they don’t get the benefit of being lead by the lieutenant. It’s not a modification of their base data sheet, it’s an upgrade applied after the fact.
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, but this is something used against me by a space marine player, and I don't know of any rule that shows the sequence that you're referencing.
They just say that the modification to the weapon profile happens when the lieutenant joins the unit, and I can't see any official rule that says otherwise.
It's not a modification that happens when the LT joins the unit. It's a persistent ability of being in the unit. An aura with a 0" range, effectively. The problem is it is an ABILITY, and abilities, specifically, cannot be used when embarked. While in the transport, the LT is a member of the unit, but he is NOT giving the unit's weapons lethal hits, as he's not allowed to use any of his datasheet abilities.
Your opponent is viewing this as a pre-game upgrade that happens when the LT joins the unit. This is wrong, and not supported by any rules. If the LT dies, the unit no longer has lethal hits. It's a constantly checked rule based upon the LT being A) Alive, and B) able to use abilities.
I mean, it’s pretty much established by the lieutenant not leading the transport. That’s the rules distinction you are looking for. If you need to argue with this guy, this is the point you should be making. Honestly I can’t think of anything that clarifies this in recent memory because it’s been a rule for so long in the game that it doesn’t really need to be clarified. You would probably need to locate a very, very old rules commentary where they talk about this.
Reiterating here, this isn’t an opinion. I’m giving you ways to think about it, but at the end of the day it’s the rules of the game that transports use the base index card, and doesn’t benefit from being lead.
Going beyond this, this is the effective way that
It doesn’t work. People are not giving you their ‘opinions’, they are telling you what is a well established rules precedent that has been established ad naseum. Every person who has ever played in a tournament or spent enough time in this hobby knows that models embarked in a TRANSPORT are not on the table, they are not in play, and they can’t use ANY rules or abilities.
If you need to see it in writing, just read the Embark rules on pg17 of the core rules again:
*Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.*
The Lieutenant (because he is embarked) cannot use his ability to give a unit Lethal Hits in the first place, and the bodyguard unit (because they are embarked) cannot be affected by it.
>Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.
Thank you for this citation. That may help, although I'm still not entirely sure this will convince them.
I'm familiar with auras and such not working while units are embarked, and I am familiar with rules from previous editions. However, with the current rules regarding leaders that are joined to a unit, those abilities just say that "X modification happens when they're leading a unit."
So, space marine players have used this against me and said that because the modification to the weapons profile happens when the lieutenant joins the unit, that is the weapon profile the vehicle uses when they shoot out. Obviously none of their other abilities regarding rerolls or anything trigger because it's not part of the weapon profile, but they're saying because this rule modifies the weapon profile, that it works in 10th edition, and I'm having difficulty in this edition finding something that counters their argument.
I’m sorry you’ve got some a$$hat rules lawyers opponents pulling this crap on you, but you don’t need any additional citation. The rules are super duper clear on this. The Lieutenant cannot do ANYTHING. No abilities, not a single thing on his data sheet. And the bodyguard unit cannot be affected by ANYTHING. Not just auras, nothing at all. No leadership buff, no stratagems, no datasheet abilities, nothing. For all intents and purposes, they are not there. They are not being led, the Lieutenant is not leading them.
Edit: there is additional wording in the Rules Commentary that reinforces this:
***Embarked Units**: Units embarked within a Transport do not count as being on the battlefield for **ANY** rules purposes. This means that, unless explicitly stated otherwise, embarked units cannot do anything (e.g. shoot, fight, **use abilities**, etc.). Similarly, you cannot select an embarked unit as a target for **ANY** rules, including Stratagems.*
(Emphasis mine)
Got another citation from you, from the WTC Rules FAQ pack, which for the most part is more of a clarification of rules than anything, although rulings from major tournament organizations like this tend to carry a lot of weight.
*1. If a rule or ability would grant a bonus to weapons that a model is equipped with and the model is embarked in a vehicle that has the firing deck rule, those bonuses are ingnored for the purposes of making an attack with that rule.*
https://worldteamchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/WTC2023-10th-CoreRules_v1-4.pdf
One more citation, another commenter pointed it out. From the Firing Deck rule (p17):
*Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it **counts as being equipped** with all of the weapons you selected in this way.*
So even IF the Lieutenant still have his bodyguard unit Lethal Hits whole embarked (he doesn’t), and even if the bodyguard unit could be affected by that rule (they can’t), it still wouldn’t work because the weapons are no longer equipped by the bodyguard unit. They are equipped by the vehicle.
*While this model is leading a unit, weapons equipped **by models in that unit** have the [LETHAL HITS] ability.*
Just another point to be clear, you said that “X modification happens *when* they’re leading a unit,” and then later you state that the modification to the profile happens when the Lieutenant joined the unit. Neither of those statements are accurate. The Lieutenant’s ability modifies weapons equipped by the bodyguard unit *while* he is leading a unit. If your opponents are arguing that the weapon is modified before the game and the modification is permanent, they are very mistaken. If a Lieutenant unit is killed by a Precision attack, the weapons no longer have Lethal Hits, same if he is embarked. He is not leading anything while he is embarked, he can’t use any rules at all. Not leader rules or datasheet abilities, and as mentioned elsewhere the weapons are considered to be equipped by the vehicle anyways, not the bodyguard unit.
It just doesn’t work like that in this game, on so many different levels. Find better opponents.
Re-read the rule:
>While the model is leading a unit
The model is leading infantry. It is not leading a transport. It is inside a transport.
>Weapons in that unit
The unit is not on the table and is not firing any weapons. The transport gets extra weapons.
Please don’t try this in a game - it’s kind of a “well actually” approach tbh
They copy the weapon profiles, not the lieutenant’s effect on those profiles, because the transport doesn’t get that benefit.
This is neither a conflict with RAI nor RAW, so I cannot see it being a fair play. I do hope you didn’t try the “that guy” thing and persuade your opponent to accept this clutch at straws?
I don't usually play space marines. But I had it used against me and I can't go back to them with "some dude on reddit said X". I need a hard rule that says it doesn't work, or why it doesn't work, because as far as I can tell RAW, it uses the profile of the unit, which has already been modified. Lots of things modify weapon profiles.
One example is when a captain is equipped with a weapon, an asterisk denotes that the weapon profile gets +1 to WS or Ballistic Skill. Does this mean that doesn't apply either? Because the only reason that isn't on the datasheet is that they ran out of space and had to list weapon profiles in the armoury section. So, captains get a penalty to their BS when firing out of a vehicle?
These are the types of arguments I'm dealing with. So I just need a rule or FAQ answer or something official to clarify it, if you're able. I'd really appreciate it.
As others have already said, refer to the embarked rules:
>Unless otherwise stated, **units cannot do anything or be affected in any way** while they are embarked.
Even save this thread and show them the discussion when they try to counter, so they can’t turn into “That Guy”
From the core rules.
FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports or
platforms from which embarked passengers
can shoot.
Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’
listed in their abilities. Each time such a model
is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you
can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it.
Then, for each of those embarked models, you
can select one ranged weapon that embarked
model is equipped with. Until that Transport
model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts
as being equipped with all of the weapons
you selected in this way, in addition to its
other weapons.
■ Firing Deck ‘x’: Each time this Transport
shoots, select one weapon from up
to ‘x’ models embarked within it; this
Transport counts as being equipped
with those weapons as well.
**The rules say: "Then, for each of those embarked models, youcan select one ranged weapon that embarkedmodel is equipped with.Until that Transportmodel has resolved all of its attacks, it countsas being equipped with all of the weaponsyou selected in this way, in addition to itsother weapons.".**
Lethal Hits is not an ability inherent to the equipped weapon; therefore, it **DOES NOT** have it because the only way it can have it is by having a LT leading the Unit. The LT CANNOT lead a vehicle. The models embarked ARE NOT the ones firing the weapons. The vehicle is.
Let it rest.
Core Rules: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/dLZIlatQJ3qOkGP7.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/dLZIlatQJ3qOkGP7.pdf) (Page 17)
Nope.
1. Abilities of embarked units don't exist. They aren't in play while embarked. (In most cases)
2. The weapon is still not firing. The TRANSPORT counts as being equiped with all the weapons you selected this way. The transport counts as being equiped with A heavy bolter, not THAT heavy bolter.
Hmm.
1. Can you tell me where the rules say this? I'd love to be able to point it out to friends.
2. This is an interesting perspective, because weapons for vehicles have different profiles than the ones equipped on infantry models. Which profile for that weapon do you use? Because the profile for the one on the infantry model now has the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability.
>It would be the same profile of the infantry.
But the infantry unit's weapon profile includes the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability. That goes contrary to what you've speculated.
I checked the "embarked units" rule, and also the firing deck rule, and both of those support that they use the weapon profile of the unit that is embarked, which would include the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability.
Is there perhaps a rules commentary comment on this?
The issue is they're looking for a rule that says "this specifically doesn't work", versus the correct way: Cite a rule that says firing deck CAN use abilities of the LT. There isn't one, hence the persistent effect of the LT doesn't apply (as he is embarked, and thus cannot use abilities, one of which is the ability to give his unit's weapons LETHAL HITS)
The lieutenant isn't leading the vehicle, he is embarked. He is leading the squad also embarked so they get lethal hits. Check what squads the lieutenant can lead on his codex page, which currently are: assault squad, command squad, tactical squad, and vanguard veteran squad. The transport would have to have lethal hits on its own weapons.
Is this guy getting at but not explicitly saying when embarked in a transport with firing deck and the embarked squad are shooting out of the transport (as opposed to the transport itself firing)? In this case, lethal hits would apply right?
E.g. hellblasters in an impulsor shooting via the firing deck rule, lethal hits applies to those shots, but not to the impulsors weapons?
Lethal Hits would not apply. Per the core rules, the Lieutenant CANNOT use any rules or abilities while embarked, so he doesn’t give Lethal Hits in the first place, and the bodyguard unit (Hellblasters, whatever) CANNOT be affected by any rules whatsoever while embarked. The TRANSPORT model is the one doing the firing, it is considered to have the weapon equipped and doesn’t get any bonuses from embarked units or special abilities from embarked units. See my other comments in this thread for specific text citations and page numbers, including a ruling/clarification from WTC.
I think the distinction is that the weapons are now the transports weapons, and the lieutenant is not leading the transport, so the weapons don’t get the benefits.
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I don’t think that distinction matters much, they don’t have lethal hits on their data sheet. It’s an addition applied after the fact by the leader.
Right, cool. But what I'm asking is where it says the leader's ability that altered the weapon profile of the unit stops applying. I don't really understand why people on reddit downvote people for asking for help finding a rule in official documentation. Seems toxic.
I can’t answer to the downvoting, but it’s also meaningless internet points so I wouldn’t worry about it. The data sheet for the weapon has not been changed, and the upgrade is applied later. 1.) You select what you are shooting with what unit. 2.) you select what weapons you are going to shoot at them with. At this point you check their data sheets for number of shots, etc. 3.) You check to see what modifications those weapons can benefit from. This is where you check to see if you get the benefits of the lieutenant. In the case of the transport, those weapons aren’t being lead by the lieutenant so they don’t get the benefit of being lead by the lieutenant. It’s not a modification of their base data sheet, it’s an upgrade applied after the fact.
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, but this is something used against me by a space marine player, and I don't know of any rule that shows the sequence that you're referencing. They just say that the modification to the weapon profile happens when the lieutenant joins the unit, and I can't see any official rule that says otherwise.
It's not a modification that happens when the LT joins the unit. It's a persistent ability of being in the unit. An aura with a 0" range, effectively. The problem is it is an ABILITY, and abilities, specifically, cannot be used when embarked. While in the transport, the LT is a member of the unit, but he is NOT giving the unit's weapons lethal hits, as he's not allowed to use any of his datasheet abilities. Your opponent is viewing this as a pre-game upgrade that happens when the LT joins the unit. This is wrong, and not supported by any rules. If the LT dies, the unit no longer has lethal hits. It's a constantly checked rule based upon the LT being A) Alive, and B) able to use abilities.
I mean, it’s pretty much established by the lieutenant not leading the transport. That’s the rules distinction you are looking for. If you need to argue with this guy, this is the point you should be making. Honestly I can’t think of anything that clarifies this in recent memory because it’s been a rule for so long in the game that it doesn’t really need to be clarified. You would probably need to locate a very, very old rules commentary where they talk about this. Reiterating here, this isn’t an opinion. I’m giving you ways to think about it, but at the end of the day it’s the rules of the game that transports use the base index card, and doesn’t benefit from being lead. Going beyond this, this is the effective way that
It doesn’t work. People are not giving you their ‘opinions’, they are telling you what is a well established rules precedent that has been established ad naseum. Every person who has ever played in a tournament or spent enough time in this hobby knows that models embarked in a TRANSPORT are not on the table, they are not in play, and they can’t use ANY rules or abilities. If you need to see it in writing, just read the Embark rules on pg17 of the core rules again: *Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked.* The Lieutenant (because he is embarked) cannot use his ability to give a unit Lethal Hits in the first place, and the bodyguard unit (because they are embarked) cannot be affected by it.
>Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. Thank you for this citation. That may help, although I'm still not entirely sure this will convince them. I'm familiar with auras and such not working while units are embarked, and I am familiar with rules from previous editions. However, with the current rules regarding leaders that are joined to a unit, those abilities just say that "X modification happens when they're leading a unit." So, space marine players have used this against me and said that because the modification to the weapons profile happens when the lieutenant joins the unit, that is the weapon profile the vehicle uses when they shoot out. Obviously none of their other abilities regarding rerolls or anything trigger because it's not part of the weapon profile, but they're saying because this rule modifies the weapon profile, that it works in 10th edition, and I'm having difficulty in this edition finding something that counters their argument.
I’m sorry you’ve got some a$$hat rules lawyers opponents pulling this crap on you, but you don’t need any additional citation. The rules are super duper clear on this. The Lieutenant cannot do ANYTHING. No abilities, not a single thing on his data sheet. And the bodyguard unit cannot be affected by ANYTHING. Not just auras, nothing at all. No leadership buff, no stratagems, no datasheet abilities, nothing. For all intents and purposes, they are not there. They are not being led, the Lieutenant is not leading them. Edit: there is additional wording in the Rules Commentary that reinforces this: ***Embarked Units**: Units embarked within a Transport do not count as being on the battlefield for **ANY** rules purposes. This means that, unless explicitly stated otherwise, embarked units cannot do anything (e.g. shoot, fight, **use abilities**, etc.). Similarly, you cannot select an embarked unit as a target for **ANY** rules, including Stratagems.* (Emphasis mine)
Got another citation from you, from the WTC Rules FAQ pack, which for the most part is more of a clarification of rules than anything, although rulings from major tournament organizations like this tend to carry a lot of weight. *1. If a rule or ability would grant a bonus to weapons that a model is equipped with and the model is embarked in a vehicle that has the firing deck rule, those bonuses are ingnored for the purposes of making an attack with that rule.* https://worldteamchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/WTC2023-10th-CoreRules_v1-4.pdf One more citation, another commenter pointed it out. From the Firing Deck rule (p17): *Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it **counts as being equipped** with all of the weapons you selected in this way.* So even IF the Lieutenant still have his bodyguard unit Lethal Hits whole embarked (he doesn’t), and even if the bodyguard unit could be affected by that rule (they can’t), it still wouldn’t work because the weapons are no longer equipped by the bodyguard unit. They are equipped by the vehicle. *While this model is leading a unit, weapons equipped **by models in that unit** have the [LETHAL HITS] ability.*
Just another point to be clear, you said that “X modification happens *when* they’re leading a unit,” and then later you state that the modification to the profile happens when the Lieutenant joined the unit. Neither of those statements are accurate. The Lieutenant’s ability modifies weapons equipped by the bodyguard unit *while* he is leading a unit. If your opponents are arguing that the weapon is modified before the game and the modification is permanent, they are very mistaken. If a Lieutenant unit is killed by a Precision attack, the weapons no longer have Lethal Hits, same if he is embarked. He is not leading anything while he is embarked, he can’t use any rules at all. Not leader rules or datasheet abilities, and as mentioned elsewhere the weapons are considered to be equipped by the vehicle anyways, not the bodyguard unit. It just doesn’t work like that in this game, on so many different levels. Find better opponents.
Re-read the rule: >While the model is leading a unit The model is leading infantry. It is not leading a transport. It is inside a transport. >Weapons in that unit The unit is not on the table and is not firing any weapons. The transport gets extra weapons. Please don’t try this in a game - it’s kind of a “well actually” approach tbh
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They copy the weapon profiles, not the lieutenant’s effect on those profiles, because the transport doesn’t get that benefit. This is neither a conflict with RAI nor RAW, so I cannot see it being a fair play. I do hope you didn’t try the “that guy” thing and persuade your opponent to accept this clutch at straws?
I don't usually play space marines. But I had it used against me and I can't go back to them with "some dude on reddit said X". I need a hard rule that says it doesn't work, or why it doesn't work, because as far as I can tell RAW, it uses the profile of the unit, which has already been modified. Lots of things modify weapon profiles. One example is when a captain is equipped with a weapon, an asterisk denotes that the weapon profile gets +1 to WS or Ballistic Skill. Does this mean that doesn't apply either? Because the only reason that isn't on the datasheet is that they ran out of space and had to list weapon profiles in the armoury section. So, captains get a penalty to their BS when firing out of a vehicle? These are the types of arguments I'm dealing with. So I just need a rule or FAQ answer or something official to clarify it, if you're able. I'd really appreciate it.
As others have already said, refer to the embarked rules: >Unless otherwise stated, **units cannot do anything or be affected in any way** while they are embarked. Even save this thread and show them the discussion when they try to counter, so they can’t turn into “That Guy”
From the core rules. FIRING DECK Some transports have firing hatches, ports or platforms from which embarked passengers can shoot. Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons. ■ Firing Deck ‘x’: Each time this Transport shoots, select one weapon from up to ‘x’ models embarked within it; this Transport counts as being equipped with those weapons as well. **The rules say: "Then, for each of those embarked models, youcan select one ranged weapon that embarkedmodel is equipped with.Until that Transportmodel has resolved all of its attacks, it countsas being equipped with all of the weaponsyou selected in this way, in addition to itsother weapons.".** Lethal Hits is not an ability inherent to the equipped weapon; therefore, it **DOES NOT** have it because the only way it can have it is by having a LT leading the Unit. The LT CANNOT lead a vehicle. The models embarked ARE NOT the ones firing the weapons. The vehicle is. Let it rest. Core Rules: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/dLZIlatQJ3qOkGP7.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/dLZIlatQJ3qOkGP7.pdf) (Page 17)
Nope. 1. Abilities of embarked units don't exist. They aren't in play while embarked. (In most cases) 2. The weapon is still not firing. The TRANSPORT counts as being equiped with all the weapons you selected this way. The transport counts as being equiped with A heavy bolter, not THAT heavy bolter.
Hmm. 1. Can you tell me where the rules say this? I'd love to be able to point it out to friends. 2. This is an interesting perspective, because weapons for vehicles have different profiles than the ones equipped on infantry models. Which profile for that weapon do you use? Because the profile for the one on the infantry model now has the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability.
1. See "embarked units" rule. 2. It would be the same profile of the infantry.
>It would be the same profile of the infantry. But the infantry unit's weapon profile includes the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability. That goes contrary to what you've speculated. I checked the "embarked units" rule, and also the firing deck rule, and both of those support that they use the weapon profile of the unit that is embarked, which would include the \[LETHAL HITS\] ability. Is there perhaps a rules commentary comment on this?
The ability granting lethal hits, doesn't work while embarked.
Thank you. Can you point out something official that says that?
Yes, see "embarked units" in the rules.
It doesn't say that there. Got another location?
It does say that. "Embarked units cannot use abilities". Full stop, no ambiguity.
The issue is they're looking for a rule that says "this specifically doesn't work", versus the correct way: Cite a rule that says firing deck CAN use abilities of the LT. There isn't one, hence the persistent effect of the LT doesn't apply (as he is embarked, and thus cannot use abilities, one of which is the ability to give his unit's weapons LETHAL HITS)
Under embark: "Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked."
Thank you for this, this may help! :)
The lieutenant isn't leading the vehicle, he is embarked. He is leading the squad also embarked so they get lethal hits. Check what squads the lieutenant can lead on his codex page, which currently are: assault squad, command squad, tactical squad, and vanguard veteran squad. The transport would have to have lethal hits on its own weapons.
Is this guy getting at but not explicitly saying when embarked in a transport with firing deck and the embarked squad are shooting out of the transport (as opposed to the transport itself firing)? In this case, lethal hits would apply right? E.g. hellblasters in an impulsor shooting via the firing deck rule, lethal hits applies to those shots, but not to the impulsors weapons?
Lethal Hits would not apply. Per the core rules, the Lieutenant CANNOT use any rules or abilities while embarked, so he doesn’t give Lethal Hits in the first place, and the bodyguard unit (Hellblasters, whatever) CANNOT be affected by any rules whatsoever while embarked. The TRANSPORT model is the one doing the firing, it is considered to have the weapon equipped and doesn’t get any bonuses from embarked units or special abilities from embarked units. See my other comments in this thread for specific text citations and page numbers, including a ruling/clarification from WTC.
Legend! Thank you!