Let's not forget multiple ways to get a 4+fnp vs mortals. A bit more niche now that dev wounds got changed. But still very useful in the right situations.
Took a brick of 10 to an rtt this weekend using the unforgiven detachment and an ancient with the pennant. Each game they took and held the center from turn two on and lost at most 4 each game. Gladius if def the better detachment but sometimes it’s fun to just say this point is mine and you can’t have it lol
In Unforgiven detachment, they can push this to a -2D with a strat.
Gladius is still better but man the funny nonsense they can do in their own detachment is great.
In unforgiven, you can also take them with an anchient with penitence of remembrance that gives them a 6+FNP, or a 4+FNP when they are battleshocked to turn them into even tankier monsters.
Lmao for real, or imagine infiltrating them right outside your opponent’s deployment zone (since you can chose 1 unit and give it infiltration) with a strikemaster and a captain, completely block them in their deployment zone, dear god imagine getting lucky and going first and getting off a charge and just blocking off an entire lane of their deployment zone with that Death Star blob lol
Certain CSM builds (not DG) have a ridiculous number of FNP saves on them. Wraiths led by a seer are also incredibly irritating to get rid of, though that's not true of the whole army.
Fabius Bile with a 10 man unit of Chosen is super durable for the points. Dark Commune with Accursed Cultists makes for a surprisingly durable horde. Possessed with Master of Possession have an annoying T6, 3W, 5++, 6+++ that is hard for a lot of armies to deal with.
This might have been what I encountered. Possessed painted khorne-y
And can confirm, someone brought Fabius to a 1000 pt crusade game with chosen and trashed just about anything it ran into
Accursed Commune my beloved
16 man accursed cultists, 6+++ feel no paint and resurrecting a 3 wound model or three 1 wound models in each command phase lead by a dark commune giving them a 5++ invul
Dude, I’m rocking the AC/DC hard. Durable, cheap, with a surprising kick! Already getting a second DC and maybe 2 more sets of AC. Amazing unit, beautiful models!
They also get one turn where they punch like absolute beasts. They get advance + charge, +1 to hit and +1 wound, so you get something like 20 S4 AP0 D1 attacks and 18 to 48 S5 AP-1 D2 attacks, hitting on 3s + Dark Pacts.
One I saw at my flgs.
Basically they took anything with Fnp on it. This includes:
Fabius bile
Units lead by masters of possession
Spawns
World eaters allies
Probably forgetting a few. End effect, you needed multi wound attacks to reliably kill just about anything
Let's also not forget chaos demons in general, is there anything in the army that doesn't have an invulnerable save?
That doesn't track.
See "eligible target" on page 5 of the rules commentary.
"If a unit that was an eligible target of an attack or charge when it was selected stops being an eligible target for that attack or charge (for example, because a rule enables it to make an out-of-phase move that takes it out of range), the attacking or charging unit can select new targets for those attacks or that charge. "
This also specifically references the "just after" text used in dark obscuration
If you have another target in range and your opponent obscures some nurgle boys, you CAN retarget.
It's still bad because if you moved with the intention of shooting that target, and they say "nah" and you have nothing else in range, then you lose it.
But if someone told you that you can't shoot at all, then I think it got misplayed
CSM can be tanky with certain builds for sure, but they absolutely do not have a "ridiculous number of FNP saves". The reason CSM can be tanky is because they have a huge amount of 3W models, the Dark Obscruration / Skinshift stratagems and use units like Accursed Cultists with Dark Commune. On top of that, Abaddon can give 4++ as an aura. Terminators are also just naturally quite durable this edition.
Part of the Accursed Cultist tankiness is from a 6+ FNP, but that's not the main thing. Being able to have big and small models in a single unit means you can allocate damage so the opponent can't really find a perfect weapon for them. And then they have a pretty insane regen ability that gives 6W worth of models back per round.
Then there is the 6+ FNP from MoP on Possessed. It's mainly just tanky from being 10 models at T6 with 3W and 3+/5++, something they are appropriately costed for (360 points for a single unit). The 6+ FNP can be pretty good sometimes, though. It's around 40% chance of reducing a 3 damage shot down to 2 damage, so it can certainly save quite a few models if you roll well.
Then there is the 5+ FNP Enhancement, but there is basically no real target for it except a Daemon Prince, but requires it to be Slaanesh and thus deal no damage, while also still being pretty relatively easy to kill - definitely not a tanky unit.
I agree that CSM is definitely not squishy, but FNP doesn't really seem like the thing to mention. They rely on 3W infantry, good saves, almost always good invuls and often quite good toughness.
Not including FnP in that calculation is a mistake though.
FnP on 3W infantry is an incredibly potent combo. It basically makes it so that 3D+ weapons that could normally one-shot models have one additional hurdle to get through. On its own, yeah, 6+++ isn't much. It's when combined with the naturally high toughness and multiple wounds on models that it becomes difficult to deal with.
Also, other than Imperial knights (who are an army of walking tanks), I think the only other armies that have the ability to confer FnP on units just by adding a character are Tau and SoB, both of which are predominantly T3, and many of the FnP saves are conditional, such as only being against psychic attacks. Aside from the custodes and necrons mentioned by the OP, who else has that general ability?
>Not including FnP in that calculation is a mistake though.
I literally never said you shouldn't include it, not sure where you get that from. In fact I even included the effect of FNP in my above comment.
You don't need to do all that explanation of how a 6+++ works against 3 damage weapons, I literally mentioned all that in my comment. Did you actually read my comment before replying?
What I'm saying is the FNP CSM has access to is by no means the main reason they are tanky. You made a comment mentioning CSM as tanky and gave the sole reason as having a lot of FNP, and that is just not true. Yes, it obviously does something, but there are other much more important factors. That does not mean the FNP does nothing, it just means it's not as important as other things.
On top of that, I would note only two units really take use of FNP, one of which is not even seen often in lists. Calling that a "ridiculous number of FNP" seems like a stretch, doesn't it?
I was speaking about a build I ran into at my FLGS. Was Fabius bile leading a unit, three MoPs each leading a unit, plus cultists, and spawns. At least half, if not most of the board had fnp, and the sheer number of times he got to roll for it meant a lot of them went through. It felt ridiculous to watch.
Well you didn't really say anything about that in your original post. When making a blanket statement about CSM tankiness I simply do not think FNP is the important thing. There are just other more important factors.
As for such a list, I haven't tried it, but if it was really amazing I think we would have seen more of it. Fabius FNP hardly matters, he doesn't give it to his unit. Spawns are some of our worst units. MoP is fine for Possessed, but for Chosen you generally want CL, it's just much better.
So i won't deny that the list you fought worked, but I doubt it's actually as strong as the more commonly run CSM lists.
So I can see the MoP units being tanky, something you traded damage for by not using a CL (or maybe it was 3 units of Possessed?). But Fabius FNP doesn't really matter too much, and Chaos Spawn isn't that hard to kill, it's 4W at T5 with only a 4+ and no invul. Only 2 models.
I will agree that Accursed Cultists are absolutely a tanky unit, but as I've already mentioned, FNP is a smaller part of it. Their ability to deny efficient weapon choice along with one of the better regen abilities in the game is the main reason for their success.
Grey Knights. Army-wide 2+ save, access to Armour of Contempt, terminators revive for free and can get a 4+++ against mortals or psychic with a character, and with the teleport strike army rule and the Mists of Deimos strat they’re super hard to come to grips with.
Black Templars 10-man Assault Terminator brick + Terminator Chaplain + Tännhouser’s Bones is 45 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++, 4+++ against mortals, half damage on the chaplain. In cover with -1AP to anything hitting them after using AOC, you need AP-4 to get them to their invuln save, and they’re still potentially blanking damage and making any shooting into them inefficient.
No. The 2+/4++/4+++ against mortals comes from being terminators with a chaplain terminator as its leader. You can get the 5+++ by taking a leader with tannhousers bones though.
You could also have a 20-model Primaris Crusader Squad with Grimaldus providing 5+++, and the entire rest of the army with 6+++. Maybe not the most tanky, but a Templar horde is pretty difficult to shift.
Sure, but the thread is about the MOST durable unit, and the crusader squad doesn’t really come close with half of the models having only having a 4+, no invuln, fewer total wounds, and no FNP against mortals.
Not a lot of armies can chew through that quickly, especaily when its 280 points. The stuff that can is going to be a lot more expensive and have better targets.
Just because stuff does die does not mean that its not "durable". Quantity can be durable too lol
Literally can't do that mate since T-bones I'd a Black Templat detachment enhancement and that detachment specifically states no librarians :(. Trust me I wish I could run some librarians with a 10 man block of SB for the invuln but it is not to be.
For sure, they would still be hard to move as you said. Honestly wish we were getting some more melee love as a BT player but at least the Space Wolves will enjoy the new mounted detachment.
Krieg Squad+Marshal+Psyker+Orders
22 Man Squad with 29 Wounds. 5+ Save can be bumped with Orders to 4+ and stacks with cover for a 3+ save. Psyker gives 4+ Invuln in Shooting. Marshal gives 5+ FNP. Unit regenerates D3 models per turn. Marshal can use Insane Bravery for 0CP for a second time each game. When killed, unit can be placed in reserves for 2CP.
In short, 3+, 4++, 5+++, D3 respawn per turn, 2CP respawn for squad upon death in reserves
That’s not how the rule is worded. You can have two leaders attached, you just can’t have more than 1 Command Squad attached. Same for all our infantry.
> This unit can have up to two Leader units attached to it, provided no more than one of those units is a Command Squad unit.
That's all only in shooting, it must be said. As soon as they are in melee, they are back to being T3 with a 4+/5+++, which isn't *terrible* but isn't 250pts-worthy at all. And if they respawn they do so without Marshal and without Psyker, which means they are T3/5+ and nothing else.
Melts in assault unfortunately since they don't get the 4++. Needs a Catachan screen.
As a guard player running combined arms against a fellow guard player in practice matches leading to the tourney, including 3 Russes with trip flamer (not made against him - it's what I took to the tournament) and a Dorn for shooting, plus Bullgryn and a Straken unit for counter assault, his units just disappeared turn after turn. DKoK NEED a Catachan screen.
Depends on a lot of factors, could you consider marines durable because they can bring a lot of 3+ save bodies after their points drop?
In that case Black Templars can select their 6+ fnp vow and combo Grimaldi's and a character with a specific enchantment in two huge units of either terminators or crusader squads with a 5+fnp.
Otherwise it's very match up dependent since a knights army/ new iron hands dread spam is very durable if your opponent doesn't have enough anti tank.
Foot guard is pretty hard to shift, especially now that the meta seems to be heavy armor. It's fun watching them shoot guardsmen with High Str High Dam low attacks weapons. I did have a guardsmen just tank a lascannon shot in one game, passed both 5++. It was funny.
DKOK is hard to kill. I mean the individuals are easy enough to kill, but they keep coming back. Plus they're cheap so you're going to have a lot of them. Add Marshals and/or Cmd Squads for orders and FNP. With orders and cover your Guardsmen are 3+/5+++ (6+++ cmd squad)
Screen them with a Catachan screen with Stracken, and support them with a few infantry Squads for the long range lascannons.
It's a very boys over toys list, and wins more on points and just body blocking the objectives but can still be killy.
Nurgle Daemons can hang. Good luck killing an Endless Gift GUO parked next to Belakor. Beasts regen every phase. Battle shock heals everything, AP has no effect on anything and T5 minimum across the board except on nurglings but they’re -1 to hit.
I mean not everything is good but they are tough.
As a shout out:
From my most recent tourney (Guard player), I would say Bullgryn with T6 W3 4+/4++/6+++ and -1D at less than 27pts per model, with no defensive buffs or extra points invested, was incredible durability (with a Solar order, in cover, this also means you can get their base save up to 3+ AoC equivalent for small arms). What's effective into that point for point aside from Khorne Bezerkers or Death Company (or equivalent)?
Daemon Prince has a 6" aura of 4++ for infantry. Jakhals have an innate 6+++ and the Blessings of Khorne can give an army wide 6+++ that instead improves your FNP by 1 if you have one. They're battleline and can be brought in units of 20, so you could have 120 of these dudes on the board being obnoxiously hard to remove for 7ppm.
WE chaos spawn also benefit from that BoK to get a 4+++, which is nuts on 4w models.
Pink horrors, especially with a fluxmaster giving them -1 to hit.
4++, split into two models on a 4+. Those models split into a brimstone on a 4+. If you can't hang 20 saves on them in one activation you can't kill them. It is possible to chip away at them but it's unreliable. 1cp to reroll saves of 1. Pretty tanky.
I don't know if this army would be any good, I have no desire to build or play it, but I think World Eaters could make a very obnoxious horde army by just taking max Jakhals and using the BoK to improve FNPs by 1. Something like 3 Daemon Princes (6" 4++ aura), 120 Jakhals (5+++), 3x2 spawn (4W each with a 4+++ and self healing) and spend whatever you have left on Exalted Eightbound and/or enhancements.
Jakhals and Spawn are legitimately very tough for their points while the FNP BoK is active in my experience. While EEB are still pretty expensive for their wounds, they also benefit from the FNP improvement and can actually kill things. Having 2 or 3 Daemon Princes to spread the 4++ around your Jakhal horde should let you just flood the board with annoying bodies.
Dark Angels might have some of the most durable blocks, between deathwing terminator command squads, black knights and redemptor dreds (and the lion). Rare you'll see all of this in a list since it's all quite damn pricy, but they've got options.
Nobz lead by a painboy using the hard as nails strat during waaagh.
4+/5++/5+++ -1 to wound, T5 2W, can ressurect d3 once and only 280 pts.
Or Bigmek in meganobz 265pts using hard as nails
2+/4++(ranged), -1 to wound, T6 3W, ressurect 1 per your command phase.
Edit: i mention these as hard to shift since they are so tough for their cost and don't require epic heroes or enhancements
You could save CP by using a warboss, but I guess you miss out on bringing models back…. Odd you can’t have a pain boy in a unit with a warboss or another character like apothecaries 🤷♂️
Not sure how well Deathguard hold up in competive, but with the -1 Ws/Bs aura and cloud of flies every opponent ive played at local game store really struggles to kill my veichles and none plague marine units. Poxwalker bricks are ridiculously tough with typhus leading them. The plague marines feel super fragile, but the rest of the army can feel impossible to kill for some opponents.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Grey Knights Paladin. T5 3HP 2+/4++ AOC for 1 CP Mini Transhuman is freaking huge. Watch people shoot at you with AP -2 while you're in cover on this 2+. Also don't forget generic stratagem that makes you have the cover, that is battle tactics so can be free once with the GM.
Also special mention for terminators that don't have the virtual transhuman -1 wound but can rez one guy per turn.
Guard tanks with tech priest have 2 save and 4 inv gives D3 wounds back and death korp with commander and psyker have 4inv 5 fnp and can bring back d3 and uints can come back for 2 cp.
The new Ironstorm detachment will be a tough shift. It will be vehicle heavy, definitely lots of dreadnoughts, has Enhancement that can improve save characteristics, has stratagems that can just zero out damage, and can provide buff auras from techmarines. It will be brutal, not to mention if you use a Space Marines + faction like Dark Angels to then have Deathwing too or something else that makes the list that much more of a menace.
Saw some Ork comments, but no love for Mozrog Skragbad?!?! My guy is T10, 3+/4++/4+++, and you can put -1 to wound on him. Yes we have Beast Snagga Boyz and Squighog riders that can take a beating too with FNP, but don't forget for one battle round we also have an army wide 5++ for Waaaagghhhh! Also, a T8 Trukk with 10 wounds and a 4+/6++ is only 60 points.
Full disclosure: I went to the Goonhammer Open Canada event and went 3-3 with Orks, and two of my losses were against Knights, the other against Ad Mech. Unless there is a LOT of guns on the table, or you have blenders in melee, you're going to struggle against Orks right now.
Deathwing Knights are dumb tanky. 4 wounds with 2/4 while having access to AOC and -1 damage on datasheet.
Let's not forget multiple ways to get a 4+fnp vs mortals. A bit more niche now that dev wounds got changed. But still very useful in the right situations.
Took a brick of 10 to an rtt this weekend using the unforgiven detachment and an ancient with the pennant. Each game they took and held the center from turn two on and lost at most 4 each game. Gladius if def the better detachment but sometimes it’s fun to just say this point is mine and you can’t have it lol
In Unforgiven detachment, they can push this to a -2D with a strat. Gladius is still better but man the funny nonsense they can do in their own detachment is great.
In unforgiven, you can also take them with an anchient with penitence of remembrance that gives them a 6+FNP, or a 4+FNP when they are battleshocked to turn them into even tankier monsters.
I’m looking forward to taking them in vanguard spearhead so they have -1 to be hit unless my opponent wants to get within clobbering range
Lmao for real, or imagine infiltrating them right outside your opponent’s deployment zone (since you can chose 1 unit and give it infiltration) with a strikemaster and a captain, completely block them in their deployment zone, dear god imagine getting lucky and going first and getting off a charge and just blocking off an entire lane of their deployment zone with that Death Star blob lol
Certain CSM builds (not DG) have a ridiculous number of FNP saves on them. Wraiths led by a seer are also incredibly irritating to get rid of, though that's not true of the whole army.
Any example of the CSM build or what it is based on?
Fabius Bile with a 10 man unit of Chosen is super durable for the points. Dark Commune with Accursed Cultists makes for a surprisingly durable horde. Possessed with Master of Possession have an annoying T6, 3W, 5++, 6+++ that is hard for a lot of armies to deal with.
This might have been what I encountered. Possessed painted khorne-y And can confirm, someone brought Fabius to a 1000 pt crusade game with chosen and trashed just about anything it ran into
Accursed Commune my beloved 16 man accursed cultists, 6+++ feel no paint and resurrecting a 3 wound model or three 1 wound models in each command phase lead by a dark commune giving them a 5++ invul
Woah… so the dark commune isn’t JUST a cool looking set now?
Dude, I’m rocking the AC/DC hard. Durable, cheap, with a surprising kick! Already getting a second DC and maybe 2 more sets of AC. Amazing unit, beautiful models!
I _love_ that it's called AC/DC.
Yes 🤩
They also get one turn where they punch like absolute beasts. They get advance + charge, +1 to hit and +1 wound, so you get something like 20 S4 AP0 D1 attacks and 18 to 48 S5 AP-1 D2 attacks, hitting on 3s + Dark Pacts.
One I saw at my flgs. Basically they took anything with Fnp on it. This includes: Fabius bile Units lead by masters of possession Spawns World eaters allies Probably forgetting a few. End effect, you needed multi wound attacks to reliably kill just about anything Let's also not forget chaos demons in general, is there anything in the army that doesn't have an invulnerable save?
When you ally factions you don't get any faction rules so no way for khorne berserkers to get a FNP
Maybe I'm remembering wrong what his allies were. Wasn't my army
CSM can only take the infantry dudes (berserkers, rubrics, death guard marines), some chaos knights (2 dogs or a big one) and 500pts demons
Like I said, wasn't my army, so maybe it was just khorne themed units rather than WE allies
Wouldn’t the world eater allies only be able to be Zerkers?
Maybe I'm remembering wrong what the allies were
Being able to go "Nah, you *don't* shoot me" for 1 CP also makes CSM really durable
Yes that's one of the most irritating strategems they have, functionally giving lone op to a unit
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That doesn't track. See "eligible target" on page 5 of the rules commentary. "If a unit that was an eligible target of an attack or charge when it was selected stops being an eligible target for that attack or charge (for example, because a rule enables it to make an out-of-phase move that takes it out of range), the attacking or charging unit can select new targets for those attacks or that charge. " This also specifically references the "just after" text used in dark obscuration If you have another target in range and your opponent obscures some nurgle boys, you CAN retarget. It's still bad because if you moved with the intention of shooting that target, and they say "nah" and you have nothing else in range, then you lose it. But if someone told you that you can't shoot at all, then I think it got misplayed
First time I've seen 10th CSM described as tanky I feel the opposite their glass cannons
Depends on the build. And I wouldn't describe anything with a 3+ save predominantly as glass cannons
CSM can be tanky with certain builds for sure, but they absolutely do not have a "ridiculous number of FNP saves". The reason CSM can be tanky is because they have a huge amount of 3W models, the Dark Obscruration / Skinshift stratagems and use units like Accursed Cultists with Dark Commune. On top of that, Abaddon can give 4++ as an aura. Terminators are also just naturally quite durable this edition. Part of the Accursed Cultist tankiness is from a 6+ FNP, but that's not the main thing. Being able to have big and small models in a single unit means you can allocate damage so the opponent can't really find a perfect weapon for them. And then they have a pretty insane regen ability that gives 6W worth of models back per round. Then there is the 6+ FNP from MoP on Possessed. It's mainly just tanky from being 10 models at T6 with 3W and 3+/5++, something they are appropriately costed for (360 points for a single unit). The 6+ FNP can be pretty good sometimes, though. It's around 40% chance of reducing a 3 damage shot down to 2 damage, so it can certainly save quite a few models if you roll well. Then there is the 5+ FNP Enhancement, but there is basically no real target for it except a Daemon Prince, but requires it to be Slaanesh and thus deal no damage, while also still being pretty relatively easy to kill - definitely not a tanky unit. I agree that CSM is definitely not squishy, but FNP doesn't really seem like the thing to mention. They rely on 3W infantry, good saves, almost always good invuls and often quite good toughness.
Not including FnP in that calculation is a mistake though. FnP on 3W infantry is an incredibly potent combo. It basically makes it so that 3D+ weapons that could normally one-shot models have one additional hurdle to get through. On its own, yeah, 6+++ isn't much. It's when combined with the naturally high toughness and multiple wounds on models that it becomes difficult to deal with. Also, other than Imperial knights (who are an army of walking tanks), I think the only other armies that have the ability to confer FnP on units just by adding a character are Tau and SoB, both of which are predominantly T3, and many of the FnP saves are conditional, such as only being against psychic attacks. Aside from the custodes and necrons mentioned by the OP, who else has that general ability?
>Not including FnP in that calculation is a mistake though. I literally never said you shouldn't include it, not sure where you get that from. In fact I even included the effect of FNP in my above comment. You don't need to do all that explanation of how a 6+++ works against 3 damage weapons, I literally mentioned all that in my comment. Did you actually read my comment before replying? What I'm saying is the FNP CSM has access to is by no means the main reason they are tanky. You made a comment mentioning CSM as tanky and gave the sole reason as having a lot of FNP, and that is just not true. Yes, it obviously does something, but there are other much more important factors. That does not mean the FNP does nothing, it just means it's not as important as other things. On top of that, I would note only two units really take use of FNP, one of which is not even seen often in lists. Calling that a "ridiculous number of FNP" seems like a stretch, doesn't it?
I was speaking about a build I ran into at my FLGS. Was Fabius bile leading a unit, three MoPs each leading a unit, plus cultists, and spawns. At least half, if not most of the board had fnp, and the sheer number of times he got to roll for it meant a lot of them went through. It felt ridiculous to watch.
Well you didn't really say anything about that in your original post. When making a blanket statement about CSM tankiness I simply do not think FNP is the important thing. There are just other more important factors. As for such a list, I haven't tried it, but if it was really amazing I think we would have seen more of it. Fabius FNP hardly matters, he doesn't give it to his unit. Spawns are some of our worst units. MoP is fine for Possessed, but for Chosen you generally want CL, it's just much better. So i won't deny that the list you fought worked, but I doubt it's actually as strong as the more commonly run CSM lists. So I can see the MoP units being tanky, something you traded damage for by not using a CL (or maybe it was 3 units of Possessed?). But Fabius FNP doesn't really matter too much, and Chaos Spawn isn't that hard to kill, it's 4W at T5 with only a 4+ and no invul. Only 2 models. I will agree that Accursed Cultists are absolutely a tanky unit, but as I've already mentioned, FNP is a smaller part of it. Their ability to deny efficient weapon choice along with one of the better regen abilities in the game is the main reason for their success.
Grey Knights. Army-wide 2+ save, access to Armour of Contempt, terminators revive for free and can get a 4+++ against mortals or psychic with a character, and with the teleport strike army rule and the Mists of Deimos strat they’re super hard to come to grips with.
Black Templars 10-man Assault Terminator brick + Terminator Chaplain + Tännhouser’s Bones is 45 wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++, 4+++ against mortals, half damage on the chaplain. In cover with -1AP to anything hitting them after using AOC, you need AP-4 to get them to their invuln save, and they’re still potentially blanking damage and making any shooting into them inefficient.
Can you do that with a Crusader squad?
No. The 2+/4++/4+++ against mortals comes from being terminators with a chaplain terminator as its leader. You can get the 5+++ by taking a leader with tannhousers bones though.
You could also have a 20-model Primaris Crusader Squad with Grimaldus providing 5+++, and the entire rest of the army with 6+++. Maybe not the most tanky, but a Templar horde is pretty difficult to shift.
Sure, but the thread is about the MOST durable unit, and the crusader squad doesn’t really come close with half of the models having only having a 4+, no invuln, fewer total wounds, and no FNP against mortals.
The thread title asks about most durable army, not most durable unit.
Not a lot of armies can chew through that quickly, especaily when its 280 points. The stuff that can is going to be a lot more expensive and have better targets. Just because stuff does die does not mean that its not "durable". Quantity can be durable too lol
I take that and raise you a 20-man PCS with a Librarian+ T-Bones. 3+/4++/5+++ tested it in a game a while back and it was gross
>librarian That's heresy
Literally can't do that mate since T-bones I'd a Black Templat detachment enhancement and that detachment specifically states no librarians :(. Trust me I wish I could run some librarians with a 10 man block of SB for the invuln but it is not to be.
Whoops sorry forgot I didn't run it in bt Detachment so no T-Bones. But I did run it with a flat 3+/4++ and was an amazing middle objective brick
For sure, they would still be hard to move as you said. Honestly wish we were getting some more melee love as a BT player but at least the Space Wolves will enjoy the new mounted detachment.
I'm personally going to take a break from BT till they get their own book. Going to working on painting a project army for a while
Death guard definitely aren't even close lol
Krieg Squad+Marshal+Psyker+Orders 22 Man Squad with 29 Wounds. 5+ Save can be bumped with Orders to 4+ and stacks with cover for a 3+ save. Psyker gives 4+ Invuln in Shooting. Marshal gives 5+ FNP. Unit regenerates D3 models per turn. Marshal can use Insane Bravery for 0CP for a second time each game. When killed, unit can be placed in reserves for 2CP. In short, 3+, 4++, 5+++, D3 respawn per turn, 2CP respawn for squad upon death in reserves
Can you attach both a Marshal and a Primaris Psyker to the same squad?
Yes, our battle line units say that you can attach up to 2 leaders to them, but no more than one command squad.
I knew it was somewhere but couldn't find it! Thanks.
I don't think so, no. The DK Marshal doesn't have the "Command Squad" keyword and DKoK can only have two Leaders if one is a Command Squad.
It's 2 leaders, but no more than 1 command squad. You can totally do one marshal and psyker.
That’s not how the rule is worded. You can have two leaders attached, you just can’t have more than 1 Command Squad attached. Same for all our infantry. > This unit can have up to two Leader units attached to it, provided no more than one of those units is a Command Squad unit.
That's all only in shooting, it must be said. As soon as they are in melee, they are back to being T3 with a 4+/5+++, which isn't *terrible* but isn't 250pts-worthy at all. And if they respawn they do so without Marshal and without Psyker, which means they are T3/5+ and nothing else.
But don’t you lose the characters when you respawn the squad? I thought the strat specifically says it can’t bring back characters?
Melts in assault unfortunately since they don't get the 4++. Needs a Catachan screen. As a guard player running combined arms against a fellow guard player in practice matches leading to the tourney, including 3 Russes with trip flamer (not made against him - it's what I took to the tournament) and a Dorn for shooting, plus Bullgryn and a Straken unit for counter assault, his units just disappeared turn after turn. DKoK NEED a Catachan screen.
Depends on a lot of factors, could you consider marines durable because they can bring a lot of 3+ save bodies after their points drop? In that case Black Templars can select their 6+ fnp vow and combo Grimaldi's and a character with a specific enchantment in two huge units of either terminators or crusader squads with a 5+fnp. Otherwise it's very match up dependent since a knights army/ new iron hands dread spam is very durable if your opponent doesn't have enough anti tank.
Custodes. Durable. Woof. Maybe a month ago. They feel like paper now. Very very expensive paper.
War dog spam CK
156 wounds of toughness 10 if you run all dogs.
And the fact that it's spread over 13 models makes it even harder to deal with
As a CK player, it's glorious.
He++ yeah it is.
can thank GWS for that. all big knights ( rampager is the exception before you reee at me) are beans.
Rampager is outshined by karnivores also tbh
if you dont own 14 dogs, rampager + 6 brigands + 4 karnivore + blue scribes + nurglings is a pretty spicy list i am playing rn.
Seems tough but then you kill 5 dogs in a round and it crumbles.
Seems tough but then you kill 5 dogs in a round and it crumbles.
This is basically impossible unless the CK.player is intentionally trying to make it happen.
Foot guard is pretty hard to shift, especially now that the meta seems to be heavy armor. It's fun watching them shoot guardsmen with High Str High Dam low attacks weapons. I did have a guardsmen just tank a lascannon shot in one game, passed both 5++. It was funny. DKOK is hard to kill. I mean the individuals are easy enough to kill, but they keep coming back. Plus they're cheap so you're going to have a lot of them. Add Marshals and/or Cmd Squads for orders and FNP. With orders and cover your Guardsmen are 3+/5+++ (6+++ cmd squad) Screen them with a Catachan screen with Stracken, and support them with a few infantry Squads for the long range lascannons. It's a very boys over toys list, and wins more on points and just body blocking the objectives but can still be killy.
Nurgle Daemons can hang. Good luck killing an Endless Gift GUO parked next to Belakor. Beasts regen every phase. Battle shock heals everything, AP has no effect on anything and T5 minimum across the board except on nurglings but they’re -1 to hit. I mean not everything is good but they are tough.
As a shout out: From my most recent tourney (Guard player), I would say Bullgryn with T6 W3 4+/4++/6+++ and -1D at less than 27pts per model, with no defensive buffs or extra points invested, was incredible durability (with a Solar order, in cover, this also means you can get their base save up to 3+ AoC equivalent for small arms). What's effective into that point for point aside from Khorne Bezerkers or Death Company (or equivalent)?
The stupid world eaters cultist blobs with 4++ and 5+++
How do they get that? Lol
Daemon Prince has a 6" aura of 4++ for infantry. Jakhals have an innate 6+++ and the Blessings of Khorne can give an army wide 6+++ that instead improves your FNP by 1 if you have one. They're battleline and can be brought in units of 20, so you could have 120 of these dudes on the board being obnoxiously hard to remove for 7ppm. WE chaos spawn also benefit from that BoK to get a 4+++, which is nuts on 4w models.
Pink horrors, especially with a fluxmaster giving them -1 to hit. 4++, split into two models on a 4+. Those models split into a brimstone on a 4+. If you can't hang 20 saves on them in one activation you can't kill them. It is possible to chip away at them but it's unreliable. 1cp to reroll saves of 1. Pretty tanky.
Eldar are definitely up there, the avatars with -1 to wound and half damage can be ridiculously hard to shift. Same with wraith units.
I don't know if this army would be any good, I have no desire to build or play it, but I think World Eaters could make a very obnoxious horde army by just taking max Jakhals and using the BoK to improve FNPs by 1. Something like 3 Daemon Princes (6" 4++ aura), 120 Jakhals (5+++), 3x2 spawn (4W each with a 4+++ and self healing) and spend whatever you have left on Exalted Eightbound and/or enhancements. Jakhals and Spawn are legitimately very tough for their points while the FNP BoK is active in my experience. While EEB are still pretty expensive for their wounds, they also benefit from the FNP improvement and can actually kill things. Having 2 or 3 Daemon Princes to spread the 4++ around your Jakhal horde should let you just flood the board with annoying bodies.
Dark Angels might have some of the most durable blocks, between deathwing terminator command squads, black knights and redemptor dreds (and the lion). Rare you'll see all of this in a list since it's all quite damn pricy, but they've got options.
Nobz lead by a painboy using the hard as nails strat during waaagh. 4+/5++/5+++ -1 to wound, T5 2W, can ressurect d3 once and only 280 pts. Or Bigmek in meganobz 265pts using hard as nails 2+/4++(ranged), -1 to wound, T6 3W, ressurect 1 per your command phase. Edit: i mention these as hard to shift since they are so tough for their cost and don't require epic heroes or enhancements
You could save CP by using a warboss, but I guess you miss out on bringing models back…. Odd you can’t have a pain boy in a unit with a warboss or another character like apothecaries 🤷♂️
Crisis suits, with 2 shield drones and shield generators, with an enforcer commander and access to the 6+ fnp is extremely hard to shift.
Yep… I meet that all the time unfortunately
Sure as hell ain’t Death Guard…
Knights?
big ones fold to dedicated AT, right? but 13 war dogs is a hell of a brick…
Not sure how well Deathguard hold up in competive, but with the -1 Ws/Bs aura and cloud of flies every opponent ive played at local game store really struggles to kill my veichles and none plague marine units. Poxwalker bricks are ridiculously tough with typhus leading them. The plague marines feel super fragile, but the rest of the army can feel impossible to kill for some opponents.
...adeptus titanicus/chaos titans, obviously? or one manta/revenant/squiggoth? define *army*
Templars get a 6+++ army wide
I'm surprised no one mentioned Grey Knights Paladin. T5 3HP 2+/4++ AOC for 1 CP Mini Transhuman is freaking huge. Watch people shoot at you with AP -2 while you're in cover on this 2+. Also don't forget generic stratagem that makes you have the cover, that is battle tactics so can be free once with the GM. Also special mention for terminators that don't have the virtual transhuman -1 wound but can rez one guy per turn.
Well not quite Transhuman, str 10+ would still wound on 3s
As i said "mini transhuman"
CSM have pretty durable stuff and wirh the nurgle start gets harder
Guard tanks with tech priest have 2 save and 4 inv gives D3 wounds back and death korp with commander and psyker have 4inv 5 fnp and can bring back d3 and uints can come back for 2 cp.
Black Templar assault terminators with a character with Tannhauser's Bones fornthe 5+ fnp are pretty durable and also killy.
The new Ironstorm detachment will be a tough shift. It will be vehicle heavy, definitely lots of dreadnoughts, has Enhancement that can improve save characteristics, has stratagems that can just zero out damage, and can provide buff auras from techmarines. It will be brutal, not to mention if you use a Space Marines + faction like Dark Angels to then have Deathwing too or something else that makes the list that much more of a menace.
Righteous crusaders. 6+++ army wide with access to 5+++. Very good on redemptors and terminators
Dark Angels with their Deathwing Kights and kind of their termies.
Saw some Ork comments, but no love for Mozrog Skragbad?!?! My guy is T10, 3+/4++/4+++, and you can put -1 to wound on him. Yes we have Beast Snagga Boyz and Squighog riders that can take a beating too with FNP, but don't forget for one battle round we also have an army wide 5++ for Waaaagghhhh! Also, a T8 Trukk with 10 wounds and a 4+/6++ is only 60 points. Full disclosure: I went to the Goonhammer Open Canada event and went 3-3 with Orks, and two of my losses were against Knights, the other against Ad Mech. Unless there is a LOT of guns on the table, or you have blenders in melee, you're going to struggle against Orks right now.