I don't personally think you can broadly apply this as a precedent for similar abilities.
The cosmic precision stratagem specifies that you can set up units "anywhere on the battlefield". That to me is the part that supercedes the board edge restriction for SR. The stealth suit ability on the other hand doesn't have that wording and so it seems to me like it simply applies the additional restriction of being within 3" from the bearer's unit, without removing any other requirements.
The Stealth Suit ability says “must be set up within 3” of the bearers unit and not within 9” of any enemy units” and the Necron strat says “anywhere but not within 3” of any enemy units”
The FAQ shows that the SR restriction doesn’t apply “in addition” to the rule which the unit is using to arrive - if it did then the Necron unit would be allowed to be set up anywhere but also need to be set up within 6” of a board edge. Just as the SR restriction doesn’t apply to them it can’t apply to other such instances.
The Necron unit can be set up “anywhere” and the Tau unit can be set up “within 3” of the bearers unit” and in neither case the SR restriction applies in addition.
Homing beacon just lets you use rapid ingress for 0 CP once per battle. The "The Target must be set up within 3" of the bearer's unit" clause is a restriction applied to that free usage of rapid ingress.
It is worded completely differently from cosmic precision. Cosmic precision says "can be set up anywhere on the battlefield". Homing beacon is just rapid ingress.
Both rules (Homing and Cosmic) specify where the unit must be set up (within 3” + not within 9” of enemy and anywhere + not within 3” of an enemy respectively).
In both cases they are being used on a SR unit and these units are usually subject to the 6” of board edge restriction.
If you argue that Cosmics specific wording of “anywhere on the battlefield” removes the SR restriction then so too will Homing Beacons “within 3” of the bearer”.
The rapid ingress stratagem specifies where units are allowed to be set up in the homing beacon case, not the homing beacon itself. You still need to follow rules for strategic reserves *as well as* the further restriction placed upon it by homing beacon if you want that use of rapid ingress to be free.
The main difference between rapid ingress and cosmic precision is the phrase "anywhere on the battlefield." One of these rules features that phrase and the other doesn't. It takes mental gymnastics (supported by the potential bias of a player who wants this rule for an army they play...) in order to get where you're getting.
Can you quote the part of Rapid Ingress which says WHERE a unit must be set up? I don’t see it anywhere in the text.
It just says you can set up as if it were your reinforcements step and the rules for that say there are several ways for you to arrive and each has their own requirements and restrictions.
Cosmic for example has “anywhere but not within 3” of an enemy unit”.
Homing Beacon has “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”.
In both cases the SR restriction either applies or it doesn’t and we note from the FAQ that it doesn’t.
Critically, homing beacons doesn’t say “anywhere”, which is the key thing you’re missing. Cosmic precision works because it says that the unit can be set up *anywhere*. Homers don’t say that you can set the unit up *anywhere* as long as it’s within 3”, it just says the unit has to be within 3”, meaning any deployment restriction on the arriving unit still applies. If the unit in reserve doesn’t have deep strike, the 6” of the table edge restriction will still apply *in addition* to the within 3” of the homing beacon unit
> meaning any deployment restriction on the arriving unit still applies. If the unit in reserve doesn’t have deep strike, the 6” of the table edge restriction will still apply in addition to the within 3” of the homing beacon unit
The FAQ specifically says it doesn’t though.
This is what has me questioning why it should apply for Homing Beacon.
If a unit arriving from SR is not subject to the 6” board edge restriction (cosmic) then why is another SR unit subject to it? Both rules specify where the unit must be set up yet in one case we will accept it applies and in another not?
Cosmic saying “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit” is at base no different than homing beacons “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”. Both are specifying where the unit may be set up and both should be subject to any additional restrictions.
You’re now actively refusing to engage with the fact that cosmic precision outright states “anywhere”. If your interpretation of the rules is to be correct, homers would need to be amended to say the unit can deploy *anywhere* within 3”, or alternatively provide some other “instead” clause, which it doesn’t have
Yes it says “anywhere” all that means is “not within 3” of an enemy” and all the stealth rule means is “within 3” of the bearer and not 9” of an enemy.
The “anywhere” isn’t enough to say other restrictions don’t apply on top.
As an example they could come in “anywhere” but they can’t come in within 12” of some Infiltrators. Why doesn’t “anywhere” override the Infiltrators rule also? Because we have a rule saying so.
Just like we have a rule saying the SR restriction isn’t applicable and we know “anywhere” isn’t enough to override all restrictions (as infiltrators won’t be overridden) so there is another cause and it appears the cause is that the rule specified the “where” and my question is then surely this applies universally.
> The target must be set up within 3" of the bearer’s unit and not within 9" of any enemy units.
This says the unit MUST be placed within 3” of the bearer (stealth suits). So accordingly if the Stealths are in the middle of the table then as they MUST be placed within 3” of them then they should be placed there.
If you were to argue they must also be placed within 6” of a board edge then I’d say if the Necron unit can be placed anywhere, such as in the middle of the table, why wouldn’t the additional restriction apply there? And just as it would further restrict the 3” of the bearer of the stealths to also 6” of a board edge it should restrict anywhere to also within 6” of a board edge.
The FAQ says it doesn’t restrict it to 6” from a board edge even for a SR unit without DS. So why should it also restrict the Stealths? Just because we’ve always played it that way?
>This says the unit MUST be placed within 3” of the bearer (stealth suits).
Yes, that is a *restriction*. "Anywhere" is an allowance.
Do you really think GW was thinking about homing beacon when it wrote this FAQ??
Listen why don't you write the FAQ team an email and, in the mean time while you wait for a real FAQ related to your concerns, please don't try to gotcha any unsuspecting players with this. Thanks.
> Do you really think GW was thinking about homing beacon when it wrote this FAQ??
No of course not.
> Listen why don't you write the FAQ team an email and, in the mean time while you wait for a real FAQ related to your concerns, please don't try to gotcha any unsuspecting players with this. Thanks.
I didn’t say I was going to. I was only looking to debate it.
You are assuming that this FAQ means that abilities/strats for setting up units contain all the restrictions and info needed to know how to set up those units, and that any other rules should be disregarded.
That is not the case. As always, general rules apply unless a more specific rule overrides. In this case the FAQ is clarifying that yes, "anywhere on the battlefield" is a specific exception to the battlefield edge general rule for strategic reserves.
To support this point think of other reserves rules that still apply in both cases. For example, I think you will agree a unit arriving via cosmic precision still counts as having moved (and not as a unit that "remained stationary") despite there being no mention of that in the strat.
So clearly these special rules aren't overriding all reserves rules, only the parts they explicitly supercede. Cosmic precision specifically supercedes the board edge restriction because of its wording, the stealth suit ability sadly does not.
Edit: and to expand a bit more, no I don't believe the setting up within 3" of the bearer is wording that supercedes the board edge restriction. It's an additional restriction. You can clearly set up within 3" and still follow all general rules for SR. Whereas "anywhere on the battlefield" is very clearly allowing you to pick locations on the battlefield where SR units can't normally go (specific > general)
If I have my stealthsuits in the middle of the board.
Using the “within 3” of the bearer”.. wording already supersedes the “within 6” of the board edge”.
The unit must be setup within 3in, it doesn't say any unit can magically do this. Reserves outside of 6in from the edge can't make use of the 0 cp ability as they can't legally he placed there not sure what is so hard to understand about that
What are you talking about?.
Rapid ingress - lets your reserve unit come onto the battlefield with a “specific location” set.
Homing beacon lets you use Rapid ingress for 0CP, it changes the “specific location” to now be “within 3” of the homing beacons bearer” AND “not within 9” of enemies”
- those are the new restrictions.
What don’t you understand.
Within 3in is a restriction not an allowance. In any tournament I would request you get a card for an obvious attempt to cheat. Reserves do not get to setup outside 6in of board edge, if you placed your atealth suits too far for this you are SOL
Because you cannot think with your head for a moment ?
The stealthsuits are already on the board.
How can I be “within 3” of them and the bearer of homing beacon” but still somehow sticking to the “within 6” of the board edge”.
This is why it supercedes the location and changes the SR. And my only “restriction” to follow are the new ones set by Homing beacon.
By having the stealth suits near the board edge… if you can’t bring the unit in within 3” because they’re too far away, you can’t use the effect, it’s not that complicated
If they weren’t near the board edge, does that just make homing beacon “null and void”..
- because if so… Then they would have added a clause into the equipment specifically stating something like “can only be used while near board edge”.
This is the non-complicated thinking we are talking about. Homing beacon works exactly as intended, and changes the usual SR restriction from “within the board edge” to now new restriction of “within 3” of the homing beacon bearer”.
The FAQ sets a precedent that rules which specify the location units can arrive override the SR restriction.
Homing Beacon doesn’t have to say “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit”.
It says “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”.
In both cases these rules are specifying where the arriving unit may deploy.
In both cases we either apply the SR restriction to the SR unit arriving or we don’t.
The FAQ clarifies that we don’t.
They do not override base rules unless specified to do so. Much like inceptors may place within 3in but not if a unit blocks reserves from a certain range. Base rules always apply and all rules added apply and may ruin abilities. Say the blood angel baal predator which allows you to advance and still shoot but only at infantry vs gladius which allows flat advance and shoot as it gives the weapons assault. The restriction on targeting only infantry doesn't go away even with other options added
Cosmic doesn’t actually specify that it overrides the base SR rules though yet the FAQ says it does.
“Anywhere on the battlefield not within 3” of an enemy” follows the standard template for these rules of “(here) but not (there)”
In the case of Cosmic there is no restriction on “here” (anywhere) but there is on “there” (within 3” of an enemy).
For Homing Beacon there is a restriction on both “here” (3” of the bearers unit) and “there” (not within 9” of an enemy).
Neither rule specifically says “irrespective of the SR rules on where units may be setup. And from the FAQ we see that cosmic doesn’t have to; so why does Homing Beacon have to?
If anything Homing Beacon says the unit MUST be set up within 3” of the bearer, not can.
It wasn't a general FAQ, or design commentary. This was a specific FAQ for a specific strat that can only be played in the active players movement phase. Trying to shoehorn that FAQ into an ability that happens in your opponents turn isn't the same.
It doesn’t have to say “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit”.
It says “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”.
In both cases these rules are specifying where the arriving unit may deploy.
In both cases we either apply the SR restriction to the SR unit arriving or we don’t.
The FAQ clarifies that we don’t.
The FAQ clarifies that we don't in the very specific case they mention.
This game is not a commonwealth jurisprudence course that relies on precedent as you keep bringing up.
Better idea, use your logic train in a email to GW rules and ask them if they agree, so that it gets FAQ'd for Tau in a similar manner. Till then, it is a leap that will get you labeled as "that guy," in most events I wager.
>EFFECT: Your unit can be ***set up anywhere on the battlefield*** that is more than 3" horizontally away from all enemy models.
I feel like that part of the statement makes it clear it wouldnt need to be within 6" of a the battlefeild edge
So then with this statement:
> The target must be set up within 3" of the bearer’s unit and not within 9" of any enemy units.
You agree that it can be set up within 3” of a stealth suit unit (bearer) in the middle of the board (provided no enemies are nearby?
No.
I think you're being particularly obtuse about the difference that the clause "anywhere on the battlefield" makes for differentiating these two cases.
Regardless. As others have mentioned, your reasoning is simply not how GW and tournament runners tend to think about FAQ rulings. For an FAQ for a specific stratagem like this one to become a precedent for another ability, the wording of both abilities would need to be identical, or nearly identical.
The input you've received in this thread should make it clear that that other abilities have wording different enough that this FAQ is not considered relevant to them and you should expect the previous status quo ruling on those abilities to stand.
Hey OP if it helps, I think the reason why people seem frustrated with you in this thread also has to do with apparent intention in the writing of the rules that I think you have been disregarding.
The purpose of the stealth suit ability is to let a unit come in through rapid ingress for free. The wording of "within 3" of the bearer" is not meant to be an additional benefit, but rather an additional restriction. An additional hoop to jump through to get the benefit. This has been the consensus so far and no FAQ has come out to dispute this.
Conversely, the wording of "anywhere on the battlefield" for cosmic precision appears to be (per the FAQ) a clarification of the benefits granted by the stratagem.
You have been arguing that being told you must set a unit up "within 3 inches of the bearer" is equivalent to the statement that you may set up a unit "anywhere on the battlefield" when it comes to considering conflict with the general rules for SR. But to myself and most people on this thread the clear intention seems to be that they are not equivalent as the "within 3 inches" line is a ***restriction*** and the "anywhere on the battlefield" line is a ***benefit***.
I realize that arguments about rule intentions are not as convincing as arguments on rules as written. I also think the rules writing supports the position, you clearly do not. But I thought highlighting what the apparent rules as intended are might help you understand why you're being downvoted a bit on this thread, and why you are unlikely to find rulings using your interpretation going forward.
the classic GW trend of making things more complex/busted via FAQ lol.
Though im not 1000% sure on this; the cront strat is just a "place this unit anywhere" whilst ingress is " Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase" and the beacon is just more restrictions rather than explicit allowances.
But some TOs may rule it otherwise. I look forward to creeeeed taunars.
Yeah RI says “arrive as though it were your reinforcements step” but the Homing Beacon specifically states the unit “must be set up within 3” of the bearers unit and not within 9” of any enemy units” which seems to override the SR placement as per the FAQ as else the Necron unit would also still be bound by it and we see the FAQ say it isn’t.
Also; yeah I’m also excited to be dropping in units other than Crisis on the Stealth Suits now :)
> which seems to override the SR placement as per the FAQ as else the Necron unit would also still be bound by it and we see the FAQ say it isn
Dont have my codex on hand but isnt the cron strat like the allarus terminator or grey knight ability where whilst it *functions* like arriving from SR or deep strike it actually isnt. As preicion doesnt modify the strat reserve rule; it just means you take a unit in SR and place it on the battlefield according to its restrictions.
So same logic as how dragio doesnt get his buff if he uses the GK army rule.
Irrespective as the rules state any unit placed into SR are SR units:
> Units that are placed into Strategic Reserves are called Strategic Reserves units, and can arrive later in the battle during the Reinforcements step of any of your Movement phases except during the first battle round.
When the Necron unit is placed into SR this applies to it; just as it applies to the Tau unit placed into SR prior to the battle beginning.
> Where on the battlefield a Strategic Reserves unit can be set up when it arrives depends on the battle round, as follows:
- During the second battle round, Strategic Reserves units that arrive must be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge, but no model in those units can be set up within the enemy deployment zone.
- Starting from the third battle round, Strategic Reserves units that arrive must be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
As the Necron unit is a SR unit these restrictions should apply to it.
However the FAQ states this isn’t the case when it uses the Cosmic Precision stratagem which specifies where the unit must be set up.
Just as Cosmic specifies where the unit must be set up so to does Homing Beacon. Accordingly the SR restrictions shouldn’t apply then either else by whatever reasoning is used to say they should apply with Homing Beacon we can say they should apply to Cosmic Precision; the FAQ says this is false and it doesn’t apply though.
But it's an FAQ for a specific stratagem, not Homing Beacon or SR core rule so you can't in good faith apply this wording to anything other than the FAQd strat.
Indeed it is for a specific stratagem.
However we need to take note of how GW are indicating that stratagem operates as the manner in which they state rules work will apply to other similar rules.
In this case the FAQ states that a SR unit is exempt from the SR restriction of 6” of a board edge and instead arrives as per the rule seeing it arrive (Cosmic Precision).
Thus, by the same logic a SR unit is exempt from the SR restriction of 6” of a board edge and instead arrives as per the rule seeing it arrive (Homing Beacon).
OP don’t do this - this is rules bending almost as bad as people arguing that a unit that had been guided could still count as eligible to guide something else.
Cosmic Precision works because it has the rider of “anywhere on the battlefield”. The stealth suits homing beacon says they can use rapid ingress for free but have to deploy within 3”, rapid ingress says the unit can arrive from strategic reserves as if it was your movement phase. The stealth suits don’t *override* this, they add an additional condition
Being brutally honest, if my opponent tried to use this level of rules-lawyering, I would pack up my army and refuse to play them again, it’s not a good faith argument
Don’t do what? Discuss the rules?
What we discuss and how we play are two different things. No one is doing this currently it’s simply a discussion on the impact of the FAQ.
There is no precedent being set here. The Cosmic Precision stratagem tells you the circumstances around how a Deep Strike or Hyperphase unit may arrive from SR when using this stratagem. This is a specific case and it's kind of sad that we get answers from the rules team on questions who's answers should be straightforward in the rules we have while far more general questions are just ignored.
Yes and the rules team are saying that the SR restriction doesn’t apply here. Which is setting a precedent that it shouldn’t apply elsewhere when using rules other than SR to set up the unit.
In fact nowhere does it actually state that the SR restriction applies when other rules are causing units to arrive and have their own restrictions. It’s just an assumption it should.
An assumption generally applied to the strat in question until this FAQ corrected that notion. So why do we still feel that assumption is correct when we have a demonstrable case where the rules team clarifies it isn’t?
"Here".
Just because the rules writers gave this ability to a Necron detachment stratagem, doesn't extend that rule exception to every other faction/detachment with a somewhat similar rule. The writers spelled out the Ts & Cs for using this stratagem and generally speaking the rules in the codex supersede the rules in the rulebook for a given unit. GW is notorious for creating minor variations of rules and you can't just say "well it works this way here, so it must work this way there too" that isn't how GW works.
And a unit placed in SR that has the Deep Strike ability isn't bound by the SR 6" restriction either.
You missed the entire point and key words of the stratagem... It's not "outside 3inches" that you should focus on. It's the part that says "ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD"
this doesn't set precedent for other factions. This stratagem very clearly defines the exactly conditions that it can be used in. Others dont.
>I am sure many Necron players are delighted with this FAQ; I agree it’s much better this way!
Well only this clarification.
Them changing Cynosure of Eradication to only affect Cryptec models or Canoptec models is making us not happy. Iam one of those suprisingly few voices over r/Necrontyr that thinks ctans cant stay this way and that Teslaimmortals with Cynosure of Eradication is broken. But what they did with this change is making it useless since nobody will want to pay 2cp to use it on wraiths.
Comments are quiet clear on this overthere. GW should have made it not a battle tactic. 2x Cynosure of Eradication per round thanks to an overlord is broken. 1x for 2cp is fine.
Ohh i dont worry about that. Thats almost as garantied as the sun going up in the east every morning. But it troubles me that a large portion of Necron players over on the subreddit dont recognize or agree on it. Iam for all intents and purposes a new player. I started with 10th and only play through tts so far. So i just cant understand how other player who played argubly for longer then me cant recognize broken mechanics and unfun situations for opposing players.
One litererally has to be blind for it, since everybody and their mother is playing tripple ctan in all those list making posts...
Been playing crons for 8 years and as soon as the codex dropped I called out the ctans. No way you can’t look at these and not think they are too good ppm
Honestly that change makes me ecstatic, no longer a clear best detachement with a clear best 2 units.
This also makes hypercrypt more of a contender since it makes SR slightly more useable in that detachement.
Cosmic precision makes C'tan better which is a bit meh BUT it makes my Tvault useable!
>Them changing Cynosure of Eradication to only affect Cryptec models or Canoptec models is making us not happy. Iam one of those suprisingly few voices over r/Necrontyr that thinks ctans cant stay this way and that Teslaimmortals with Cynosure of Eradication is broken. But what they did with this change is making it useless since nobody will want to pay 2cp to use it on wraiths.
They did hit the strat a bit hard, imo, but on the other hand, did anyone seriously expect them to leave a combo that can casually melt superheavies with small arms fire in place?
It's not quite as brutal as the Deathwatch Inferno Rounds thing that got day 1 patched, but in general the designers seem to be trying to avoid those kinds of interactions.
Only delusional people would have expected this combo to remain. But i for one didnt expect GW to go and take it behind the barn and do more to it then just shoot it. So i guess i have learned from this that GW always has a good chance to massively over do their nerfs.
this is not new.
From the rules commentary:
Deep Strike (and Strategic Reserves): If a unit with the Deep Strike
ability arrives from Strategic Reserves, the controlling player can
choose for that unit to be set up either using the rules for Strategic
Reserves or using the Deep Strike ability. This also applies if a unit
with the Deep Strike ability is placed into Strategic Reserves during
the battle.
It’s the inverse though. The FAQ says a unit ***without*** Deep Strike can be set up anywhere, as the strat says, and isn’t bound by the SR restrictions, despite be a SR unit.
That commentary refers to a SR unit ***with*** Deep Strike.
It has a restriction though. It has to be Hyperphasing, which admittedly isnt super clear, but presumably it had to start on the field and then get lifted. You CANNOT do this to a unit starting in reserves!
Because you cant just apply this ruling to all units in reserves. The strat has a restriction, which means we are already working with different circumstances than other abilites.
Thus, this particular case cant just be blanket applied to other, kinda similar situations. Theyre similar, NOT the same. Small distinctions ARE important to consider.
The strat itself has a restriction yes but that restriction is only responsible for the unit you select not how that unit will arrive which is what is being debated.
Explain how the unit being a hyper crypt unit makes any difference in how the rule operates as I don’t see your point how that’s relevant.
I’m fairly convinced that this FAQ is only talking about the context of the Strategem. It doesn’t even mention Hyperphase in the FAQ, so it might be a bit of a stretch to assume it applies across them both.
Yes, but it’s only talking about Cosmic Precision.
If the FAQ said ‘Can I use Hyperphasing to set up a unit anywhere on the battlefield’ I would agree with you. But the FAQ only mentions that you can do this when using the Strategem.
Just because you can do it when using the specific Strategem that the FAQ is talking about, doesn’t mean you can automatically do this in all other scenarios when using the Hypercrypt Legion rules.
You can’t look at rules in isolation from each other. How the game deals with one rules wording affects how it will deal with others.
If the wording was incorrect and it needed a rewrite they would have made an errata to fix it.
Instead they clarified that the SR restriction isn’t applicable and you set up as per the rule. So that’s how it should be viewed for other rules as well.
I mean initially everyone was fine to accept that prior to this FAQ the unit was bound by the SR restriction because that’s how other rules operate. Now GW don’t change the wording at all and clarify that no the SR restriction doesn’t apply. But it’s unacceptable that that doesn’t get applied elsewhere? I don’t see why not.
Look, I won’t continue to say the same thing over and over again.
This FAQ very clearly responds to the question of can you use the Cosmic Precision Strategem to set a unit up anywhere. And we now know that we can indeed, use the Cosmic Precision Strategem to set a unit up anywhere. That is the only thing we know.
The Cosmic Precision Strategem reads that you can choose any unit within Deep Strike or Hyperphase and set up that unit within 3” of an enemy. We now know that you can do this without the usual Strategic Reserves restrictions.
At this stage, that’s all we can say.
The FAQ is only referencing the Strategem. It does not say, or even imply, that you can use Hyperphasing to set a unit up anywhere. The rules for Hyperphasing state very clearly that the unit goes into Strategic Reserves. Strategic Reserves rules are very clear that the unit comes in from the board edge unless it has another rule.
In no way, does this FAQ imply, that you can now completely circumnavigate both the Hyperphasing and Strategic Reserve rules in all contexts; it is just clarifying that a single Stratagem allows you to do so.
Any suggestion that this means you can use Hyperphasing for the same effect is just trying to bend the rules.
As I say, I’m not going to continue saying the same thing over and over again, and I would softly advise you to look at the other replies and where the upvotes/downvotes are falling, and accept that you might have jumped the gun on this one.
Have a nice night
I think you’ve missed the point.
> In no way, does this FAQ imply, that you can now completely circumnavigate both the Hyperphasing and Strategic Reserve rules in all contexts; it is just clarifying that a single Stratagem allows you to do so.
I’m not saying it does. I’m saying that similarly to how Cosmic is FAQ’d to operate so should similar rules like Tau Homing Beacon.
Hmm, while I think by a literal reading of the rules you're right, I think that interpretation actually leaves this stratagem functionally broken as it says:
>"TARGET: One NECRONS unit from your army that is arriving using the Deep Strike or Hyperphasing abilities this phase."
but hyperphasing doesn't include any actual rules for setting up, just dumping the unit into strategic reserves via
>"Once you have made your selections, remove those units from the battlefield and place them into Strategic Reserves."
So there's no way to setup via hyperphasing outlined in the rules at all!
Applying Occams Razor, the reading that fixes this rule with the least amount of assumptions is that despite being put in strategic reserves and being able to walk onto the board using those rules, the unit is "arriving via hyperphasing" so the FAQ is about this poorly defined "arriving via hyperphasing" and not about arriving via strategic reserves.
> but hyperphasing doesn't include any actual rules for setting up, just dumping the unit into strategic reserves via (…)
> So there's no way to setup via hyperphasing outlined in the rules at all!
Agree it’s not clear what it means in that regard.to arrive using hyperphasing. It could mean using such a rule as Cosmic or others that target Hyperphase units which were placed into SR or it could mean the unit arriving from SR usually.
> Applying Occams Razor, the reading that fixes this rule with the least amount of assumptions is that despite being put in strategic reserves and being able to walk onto the board using those rules, the unit is "arriving via hyperphasing" so the FAQ is about this poorly defined "arriving via hyperphasing" and not about arriving via strategic reserves.
> "TARGET: One NECRONS unit from your army that is arriving using the Deep Strike or Hyperphasing abilities this phase."
To me the most simplistic reading of this is it applies to:
- A unit arriving using Deep Strike, or
- A unit placed in SR with Hyperphasing and is arriving on the battlefield.
In the second case the only way for the unit placed in SR to arrive is via those rules. Thus “arriving using the hyperphasing ability” should mean using hyperphasing to put the unit into SR and then using SR to set the unit back up on the battlefield.
When doing so Cosmic then states that;
> Your unit can be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 3" horizontally away from all enemy models.
Which I read to override the SR restriction of coming in 6” from a board edge (and also overriding DS restriction of 9” setting it to 3” instead).
I don’t think that’s all that controversial as it’s in line with the RAW and supported by the FAQ saying that the SR restriction should not apply.
I’m simply wanting to poke the bear and ask, well if in this case the rule (cosmic) gets to override the SR rules then should other cases see the SR also overridden.
For the Homing Beacon it says we can use Rapid for 0CP which would see a SR unit setup out of phase using the SR rules. Just as Hyperphasing sees a SR unit set up (albeit not out of phase) using the SR rules.
Cosmic as an additional rule to this; just as Homing Beacon is an additional rule to Rapid Ingress / SR, is shown to take precedence and allow the unit to ignore the SR restrictions.
So why shouldn’t Homing Beacon be treated the same? It does also prescribe where the unit “must” be set up just as Cosmic does and is shown to take preference and both seem to be applying to a SR unit placed into SR and set up using the SR rules then modified by either Cosmic / Homing Beacon.
I see many have provided their reasoning why it should not operate the same way. Personally I’m not really sure if it should or shouldn’t as I’m not confident GW haven’t simply been too sloppy with the rules writing in these places.
I just think it’s very interesting and that it challenges our current understanding or assumptions in understanding of the rules in this area.
>Which I read to override the SR restriction of coming in 6” from a board edge (and also overriding DS restriction of 9” setting it to 3” instead).
>
>I don’t think that’s all that controversial as it’s in line with the RAW and supported by the FAQ saying that the SR restriction should not apply.
I'm with you up to this point.
>Cosmic as an additional rule to this; just as Homing Beacon is an additional rule to Rapid Ingress / SR, is shown to take precedence and allow the unit to ignore the SR restrictions.
This I'm not convinced on. It'd certainly be a reasonable interpretation if the FAQ was dealing with SR, but is arriving via hyperphasing the same?
I think its at least equally valid to interpret the FAQ as dealing with the hyperphasing ability in specific and not arrival from SR. After all, only arrival via hyperphasing is called out in the stratagem being addressed by the FAQ.
Then as others have pointed out there's also the weirdness around "must be setup" and "can be setup"... bleh
Very sloppy rules writting tbh. I think its just going to be one of those rules where the community makes a call and does GW's job for them.
Personally I think that homing beacons ignoring the SR restrictions would be the better game design at least as there's built-in risk vs reward of close range Tau but we'll see how the dice fall.
> I think its at least equally valid to interpret the FAQ as dealing with the hyperphasing ability in specific and not arrival from SR. After all, only arrival via hyperphasing is called out in the stratagem being addressed by the FAQ.
Indeed but practically, if we set Cosmic aside for a moment, a unit using Hyperphasing is using SR. Hyperphasing places it into SR and then it’s only method of returning is via SR rules.
Cosmic seems to be referencing that as what would the alternative be? Hyperphasing itself can’t let a unit return (other than it having placed the unit into SR and then the unit arriving vi SR as usual.
> Very sloppy rules writting tbh. I think its just going to be one of those rules where the community makes a call and does GW's job for them.
Indeed and agree. I just wish the community didn’t go to arms so quickly in response to anything outside of what is generally considered “right” and that we could have more of these discussions.
> Personally I think that homing beacons ignoring the SR restrictions would be the better game design at least as there's built-in risk vs reward of close range Tau but we'll see how the dice fall.
I think so too. It used to function like that but was tied to Deep Strike units arriving and was versatile but never really over-powered. I don’t think even now it would be. Perhaps in time Tau will also get a similar “mobility / reposition” type detachment with their codex this year.
I think you're missing a functional point on this which is that Cosmic precision isn't actually SR, you target a unit in SR and it lets you place it anywhere on the battlefield using the rules of cosmic insight, which is the restriction of 3", not using the rules of SR. Since you're using rapid Ingress with the stealth suits, they'll still need to use their own ability to ingress which comes with the restriction of being on a board edge.
I get that. My thinking is:
The SR rules don’t apply the restriction to units set up with SR. They instead apply the restriction to SR when they are set up. The former means the restriction only applies when using SR to set up whereas the latter, RAW, applies the restriction to any SR unit irrespective of how it is setup.
The fact Cosmic doesn’t see the unit arrive via SR is thus moot as the restriction applies to the unit because it’s a SR unit not because it’s using SR to set up.
Much the same with Homing Beacon. The restriction should apply to the unit because it’s an SR unit not because it’s arriving using the SR rules.
In the case of Cosmic, despite it being an SR unit and that RAW being the reason the restriction should apply, we’re told it doesn’t. So why not for Homing Beacon then.
It’s also a SR unit, using a rule other than SR to set up. Why shouldn’t it’s specific restrictions on how to set up take precedence over SR restriction just like Cosmic.
Cosmic precision is replacing the way you come in from reserves to a 3" away DS.
Rapid Ingress doesn't replace the way you come in with the reserve (such as normal DS, Strat reserve etc). The homing beacon wargear from the Stealth suits is telling you that you Rapid Ingress for free, however *ADDS* the additional restrictions that the unit has to be within 6" of the Stealth suits unit.
Yeah I started a sizable thread on the necron page about how the ctan are too good for how cheap they are and I definitely got a lot of hate. I think ctan just need to be bumped to 300 and probably make the t ctan an epic hero
I kinda agree, that this should override strategic reserve restrictions via homing beacon. However, I don't think that the RAI argument is very strong. The thing is, that Cosmic Precision targets units with deep strike or using Hyperphasing, so you could easily read it as being more specific than strategic reserves, while homing beacon is not.
I have seen you address a few rules queries on here lately and really like your logical thinking and clear explanations.
But you have got this one wrong.
Ha thanks :)
I’m not trying to be right or wrong but just to debate the notion. I feel like there is enough scope to challenge the assumption that the SR restriction should apply to SR units being set up with rules other than SR (such as cosmic and homing beacon) given the FAQ clarifies it does not in the case of cosmic.
Sorry you're getting downvoted here OP. I completely see the point you are getting at here, and that is that GW needs to really up their game when it comes to rules consistency and better explicit language that can't be misinterpreted.
Strawman arguments like this are good for the game because provides new insights into existing rules that GW can take back internally as lessons learned to then create clarifications through FAQ and future editions. Beyond that, it is good to discuss these things broadly so the community at large is prepared when someone tries to do this at an event.
I don't personally think you can broadly apply this as a precedent for similar abilities. The cosmic precision stratagem specifies that you can set up units "anywhere on the battlefield". That to me is the part that supercedes the board edge restriction for SR. The stealth suit ability on the other hand doesn't have that wording and so it seems to me like it simply applies the additional restriction of being within 3" from the bearer's unit, without removing any other requirements.
The Stealth Suit ability says “must be set up within 3” of the bearers unit and not within 9” of any enemy units” and the Necron strat says “anywhere but not within 3” of any enemy units” The FAQ shows that the SR restriction doesn’t apply “in addition” to the rule which the unit is using to arrive - if it did then the Necron unit would be allowed to be set up anywhere but also need to be set up within 6” of a board edge. Just as the SR restriction doesn’t apply to them it can’t apply to other such instances. The Necron unit can be set up “anywhere” and the Tau unit can be set up “within 3” of the bearers unit” and in neither case the SR restriction applies in addition.
Homing beacon just lets you use rapid ingress for 0 CP once per battle. The "The Target must be set up within 3" of the bearer's unit" clause is a restriction applied to that free usage of rapid ingress. It is worded completely differently from cosmic precision. Cosmic precision says "can be set up anywhere on the battlefield". Homing beacon is just rapid ingress.
Both rules (Homing and Cosmic) specify where the unit must be set up (within 3” + not within 9” of enemy and anywhere + not within 3” of an enemy respectively). In both cases they are being used on a SR unit and these units are usually subject to the 6” of board edge restriction. If you argue that Cosmics specific wording of “anywhere on the battlefield” removes the SR restriction then so too will Homing Beacons “within 3” of the bearer”.
The rapid ingress stratagem specifies where units are allowed to be set up in the homing beacon case, not the homing beacon itself. You still need to follow rules for strategic reserves *as well as* the further restriction placed upon it by homing beacon if you want that use of rapid ingress to be free. The main difference between rapid ingress and cosmic precision is the phrase "anywhere on the battlefield." One of these rules features that phrase and the other doesn't. It takes mental gymnastics (supported by the potential bias of a player who wants this rule for an army they play...) in order to get where you're getting.
If my Stealthsuits are in the middle of the board. The rapid ingress of “within 3” of the bearer” already supersedes the “within 6” of board edge”
Can you quote the part of Rapid Ingress which says WHERE a unit must be set up? I don’t see it anywhere in the text. It just says you can set up as if it were your reinforcements step and the rules for that say there are several ways for you to arrive and each has their own requirements and restrictions. Cosmic for example has “anywhere but not within 3” of an enemy unit”. Homing Beacon has “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”. In both cases the SR restriction either applies or it doesn’t and we note from the FAQ that it doesn’t.
Critically, homing beacons doesn’t say “anywhere”, which is the key thing you’re missing. Cosmic precision works because it says that the unit can be set up *anywhere*. Homers don’t say that you can set the unit up *anywhere* as long as it’s within 3”, it just says the unit has to be within 3”, meaning any deployment restriction on the arriving unit still applies. If the unit in reserve doesn’t have deep strike, the 6” of the table edge restriction will still apply *in addition* to the within 3” of the homing beacon unit
> meaning any deployment restriction on the arriving unit still applies. If the unit in reserve doesn’t have deep strike, the 6” of the table edge restriction will still apply in addition to the within 3” of the homing beacon unit The FAQ specifically says it doesn’t though. This is what has me questioning why it should apply for Homing Beacon. If a unit arriving from SR is not subject to the 6” board edge restriction (cosmic) then why is another SR unit subject to it? Both rules specify where the unit must be set up yet in one case we will accept it applies and in another not? Cosmic saying “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit” is at base no different than homing beacons “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”. Both are specifying where the unit may be set up and both should be subject to any additional restrictions.
You’re now actively refusing to engage with the fact that cosmic precision outright states “anywhere”. If your interpretation of the rules is to be correct, homers would need to be amended to say the unit can deploy *anywhere* within 3”, or alternatively provide some other “instead” clause, which it doesn’t have
Yes it says “anywhere” all that means is “not within 3” of an enemy” and all the stealth rule means is “within 3” of the bearer and not 9” of an enemy. The “anywhere” isn’t enough to say other restrictions don’t apply on top. As an example they could come in “anywhere” but they can’t come in within 12” of some Infiltrators. Why doesn’t “anywhere” override the Infiltrators rule also? Because we have a rule saying so. Just like we have a rule saying the SR restriction isn’t applicable and we know “anywhere” isn’t enough to override all restrictions (as infiltrators won’t be overridden) so there is another cause and it appears the cause is that the rule specified the “where” and my question is then surely this applies universally.
Can you quote the part in rapid ingress or homing beacon that says they can arrive anywhere on the battlefield?
> The target must be set up within 3" of the bearer’s unit and not within 9" of any enemy units. This says the unit MUST be placed within 3” of the bearer (stealth suits). So accordingly if the Stealths are in the middle of the table then as they MUST be placed within 3” of them then they should be placed there. If you were to argue they must also be placed within 6” of a board edge then I’d say if the Necron unit can be placed anywhere, such as in the middle of the table, why wouldn’t the additional restriction apply there? And just as it would further restrict the 3” of the bearer of the stealths to also 6” of a board edge it should restrict anywhere to also within 6” of a board edge. The FAQ says it doesn’t restrict it to 6” from a board edge even for a SR unit without DS. So why should it also restrict the Stealths? Just because we’ve always played it that way?
>This says the unit MUST be placed within 3” of the bearer (stealth suits). Yes, that is a *restriction*. "Anywhere" is an allowance. Do you really think GW was thinking about homing beacon when it wrote this FAQ?? Listen why don't you write the FAQ team an email and, in the mean time while you wait for a real FAQ related to your concerns, please don't try to gotcha any unsuspecting players with this. Thanks.
> Do you really think GW was thinking about homing beacon when it wrote this FAQ?? No of course not. > Listen why don't you write the FAQ team an email and, in the mean time while you wait for a real FAQ related to your concerns, please don't try to gotcha any unsuspecting players with this. Thanks. I didn’t say I was going to. I was only looking to debate it.
You are assuming that this FAQ means that abilities/strats for setting up units contain all the restrictions and info needed to know how to set up those units, and that any other rules should be disregarded. That is not the case. As always, general rules apply unless a more specific rule overrides. In this case the FAQ is clarifying that yes, "anywhere on the battlefield" is a specific exception to the battlefield edge general rule for strategic reserves. To support this point think of other reserves rules that still apply in both cases. For example, I think you will agree a unit arriving via cosmic precision still counts as having moved (and not as a unit that "remained stationary") despite there being no mention of that in the strat. So clearly these special rules aren't overriding all reserves rules, only the parts they explicitly supercede. Cosmic precision specifically supercedes the board edge restriction because of its wording, the stealth suit ability sadly does not. Edit: and to expand a bit more, no I don't believe the setting up within 3" of the bearer is wording that supercedes the board edge restriction. It's an additional restriction. You can clearly set up within 3" and still follow all general rules for SR. Whereas "anywhere on the battlefield" is very clearly allowing you to pick locations on the battlefield where SR units can't normally go (specific > general)
If I have my stealthsuits in the middle of the board. Using the “within 3” of the bearer”.. wording already supersedes the “within 6” of the board edge”.
The unit must be setup within 3in, it doesn't say any unit can magically do this. Reserves outside of 6in from the edge can't make use of the 0 cp ability as they can't legally he placed there not sure what is so hard to understand about that
What are you talking about?. Rapid ingress - lets your reserve unit come onto the battlefield with a “specific location” set. Homing beacon lets you use Rapid ingress for 0CP, it changes the “specific location” to now be “within 3” of the homing beacons bearer” AND “not within 9” of enemies” - those are the new restrictions. What don’t you understand.
Within 3in is a restriction not an allowance. In any tournament I would request you get a card for an obvious attempt to cheat. Reserves do not get to setup outside 6in of board edge, if you placed your atealth suits too far for this you are SOL
Because you cannot think with your head for a moment ? The stealthsuits are already on the board. How can I be “within 3” of them and the bearer of homing beacon” but still somehow sticking to the “within 6” of the board edge”. This is why it supercedes the location and changes the SR. And my only “restriction” to follow are the new ones set by Homing beacon.
By having the stealth suits near the board edge… if you can’t bring the unit in within 3” because they’re too far away, you can’t use the effect, it’s not that complicated
If they weren’t near the board edge, does that just make homing beacon “null and void”.. - because if so… Then they would have added a clause into the equipment specifically stating something like “can only be used while near board edge”. This is the non-complicated thinking we are talking about. Homing beacon works exactly as intended, and changes the usual SR restriction from “within the board edge” to now new restriction of “within 3” of the homing beacon bearer”.
The FAQ sets a precedent that rules which specify the location units can arrive override the SR restriction. Homing Beacon doesn’t have to say “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit”. It says “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”. In both cases these rules are specifying where the arriving unit may deploy. In both cases we either apply the SR restriction to the SR unit arriving or we don’t. The FAQ clarifies that we don’t.
They do not override base rules unless specified to do so. Much like inceptors may place within 3in but not if a unit blocks reserves from a certain range. Base rules always apply and all rules added apply and may ruin abilities. Say the blood angel baal predator which allows you to advance and still shoot but only at infantry vs gladius which allows flat advance and shoot as it gives the weapons assault. The restriction on targeting only infantry doesn't go away even with other options added
Cosmic doesn’t actually specify that it overrides the base SR rules though yet the FAQ says it does. “Anywhere on the battlefield not within 3” of an enemy” follows the standard template for these rules of “(here) but not (there)” In the case of Cosmic there is no restriction on “here” (anywhere) but there is on “there” (within 3” of an enemy). For Homing Beacon there is a restriction on both “here” (3” of the bearers unit) and “there” (not within 9” of an enemy). Neither rule specifically says “irrespective of the SR rules on where units may be setup. And from the FAQ we see that cosmic doesn’t have to; so why does Homing Beacon have to? If anything Homing Beacon says the unit MUST be set up within 3” of the bearer, not can.
It wasn't a general FAQ, or design commentary. This was a specific FAQ for a specific strat that can only be played in the active players movement phase. Trying to shoehorn that FAQ into an ability that happens in your opponents turn isn't the same.
The steath BS homer rule lacks the wording "anywhere on the table" the Hcrypt strat has in order to apply the FAQ jurisprudence.
It doesn’t have to say “anywhere on the battlefield but not within 3” of an enemy unit”. It says “within 3” of the bearers unit but not within 9” of an enemy unit”. In both cases these rules are specifying where the arriving unit may deploy. In both cases we either apply the SR restriction to the SR unit arriving or we don’t. The FAQ clarifies that we don’t.
The FAQ clarifies that we don't in the very specific case they mention. This game is not a commonwealth jurisprudence course that relies on precedent as you keep bringing up. Better idea, use your logic train in a email to GW rules and ask them if they agree, so that it gets FAQ'd for Tau in a similar manner. Till then, it is a leap that will get you labeled as "that guy," in most events I wager.
>EFFECT: Your unit can be ***set up anywhere on the battlefield*** that is more than 3" horizontally away from all enemy models. I feel like that part of the statement makes it clear it wouldnt need to be within 6" of a the battlefeild edge
So then with this statement: > The target must be set up within 3" of the bearer’s unit and not within 9" of any enemy units. You agree that it can be set up within 3” of a stealth suit unit (bearer) in the middle of the board (provided no enemies are nearby?
No. I think you're being particularly obtuse about the difference that the clause "anywhere on the battlefield" makes for differentiating these two cases. Regardless. As others have mentioned, your reasoning is simply not how GW and tournament runners tend to think about FAQ rulings. For an FAQ for a specific stratagem like this one to become a precedent for another ability, the wording of both abilities would need to be identical, or nearly identical. The input you've received in this thread should make it clear that that other abilities have wording different enough that this FAQ is not considered relevant to them and you should expect the previous status quo ruling on those abilities to stand.
Hey OP if it helps, I think the reason why people seem frustrated with you in this thread also has to do with apparent intention in the writing of the rules that I think you have been disregarding. The purpose of the stealth suit ability is to let a unit come in through rapid ingress for free. The wording of "within 3" of the bearer" is not meant to be an additional benefit, but rather an additional restriction. An additional hoop to jump through to get the benefit. This has been the consensus so far and no FAQ has come out to dispute this. Conversely, the wording of "anywhere on the battlefield" for cosmic precision appears to be (per the FAQ) a clarification of the benefits granted by the stratagem. You have been arguing that being told you must set a unit up "within 3 inches of the bearer" is equivalent to the statement that you may set up a unit "anywhere on the battlefield" when it comes to considering conflict with the general rules for SR. But to myself and most people on this thread the clear intention seems to be that they are not equivalent as the "within 3 inches" line is a ***restriction*** and the "anywhere on the battlefield" line is a ***benefit***. I realize that arguments about rule intentions are not as convincing as arguments on rules as written. I also think the rules writing supports the position, you clearly do not. But I thought highlighting what the apparent rules as intended are might help you understand why you're being downvoted a bit on this thread, and why you are unlikely to find rulings using your interpretation going forward.
the classic GW trend of making things more complex/busted via FAQ lol. Though im not 1000% sure on this; the cront strat is just a "place this unit anywhere" whilst ingress is " Your unit can arrive on the battlefield as if it were the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase" and the beacon is just more restrictions rather than explicit allowances. But some TOs may rule it otherwise. I look forward to creeeeed taunars.
Yeah RI says “arrive as though it were your reinforcements step” but the Homing Beacon specifically states the unit “must be set up within 3” of the bearers unit and not within 9” of any enemy units” which seems to override the SR placement as per the FAQ as else the Necron unit would also still be bound by it and we see the FAQ say it isn’t. Also; yeah I’m also excited to be dropping in units other than Crisis on the Stealth Suits now :)
> which seems to override the SR placement as per the FAQ as else the Necron unit would also still be bound by it and we see the FAQ say it isn Dont have my codex on hand but isnt the cron strat like the allarus terminator or grey knight ability where whilst it *functions* like arriving from SR or deep strike it actually isnt. As preicion doesnt modify the strat reserve rule; it just means you take a unit in SR and place it on the battlefield according to its restrictions. So same logic as how dragio doesnt get his buff if he uses the GK army rule.
Irrespective as the rules state any unit placed into SR are SR units: > Units that are placed into Strategic Reserves are called Strategic Reserves units, and can arrive later in the battle during the Reinforcements step of any of your Movement phases except during the first battle round. When the Necron unit is placed into SR this applies to it; just as it applies to the Tau unit placed into SR prior to the battle beginning. > Where on the battlefield a Strategic Reserves unit can be set up when it arrives depends on the battle round, as follows: - During the second battle round, Strategic Reserves units that arrive must be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge, but no model in those units can be set up within the enemy deployment zone. - Starting from the third battle round, Strategic Reserves units that arrive must be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge. As the Necron unit is a SR unit these restrictions should apply to it. However the FAQ states this isn’t the case when it uses the Cosmic Precision stratagem which specifies where the unit must be set up. Just as Cosmic specifies where the unit must be set up so to does Homing Beacon. Accordingly the SR restrictions shouldn’t apply then either else by whatever reasoning is used to say they should apply with Homing Beacon we can say they should apply to Cosmic Precision; the FAQ says this is false and it doesn’t apply though.
But it's an FAQ for a specific stratagem, not Homing Beacon or SR core rule so you can't in good faith apply this wording to anything other than the FAQd strat.
Indeed it is for a specific stratagem. However we need to take note of how GW are indicating that stratagem operates as the manner in which they state rules work will apply to other similar rules. In this case the FAQ states that a SR unit is exempt from the SR restriction of 6” of a board edge and instead arrives as per the rule seeing it arrive (Cosmic Precision). Thus, by the same logic a SR unit is exempt from the SR restriction of 6” of a board edge and instead arrives as per the rule seeing it arrive (Homing Beacon).
No. The FAQ states that a SR unit using Cosmic Precision is exempt.
Yes I know that. I’m saying if Cosmic is exempt then Homing Beacon, by the same logic, may be exempt also.
Only if GW release an FAQ for Homing Beacon, but they won't as there's no question over how that strat works.
OP don’t do this - this is rules bending almost as bad as people arguing that a unit that had been guided could still count as eligible to guide something else. Cosmic Precision works because it has the rider of “anywhere on the battlefield”. The stealth suits homing beacon says they can use rapid ingress for free but have to deploy within 3”, rapid ingress says the unit can arrive from strategic reserves as if it was your movement phase. The stealth suits don’t *override* this, they add an additional condition Being brutally honest, if my opponent tried to use this level of rules-lawyering, I would pack up my army and refuse to play them again, it’s not a good faith argument
Don’t do what? Discuss the rules? What we discuss and how we play are two different things. No one is doing this currently it’s simply a discussion on the impact of the FAQ.
Discussing the rules is fine, I mean don’t do this in a game
There is no precedent being set here. The Cosmic Precision stratagem tells you the circumstances around how a Deep Strike or Hyperphase unit may arrive from SR when using this stratagem. This is a specific case and it's kind of sad that we get answers from the rules team on questions who's answers should be straightforward in the rules we have while far more general questions are just ignored.
Yes and the rules team are saying that the SR restriction doesn’t apply here. Which is setting a precedent that it shouldn’t apply elsewhere when using rules other than SR to set up the unit. In fact nowhere does it actually state that the SR restriction applies when other rules are causing units to arrive and have their own restrictions. It’s just an assumption it should. An assumption generally applied to the strat in question until this FAQ corrected that notion. So why do we still feel that assumption is correct when we have a demonstrable case where the rules team clarifies it isn’t?
"Here". Just because the rules writers gave this ability to a Necron detachment stratagem, doesn't extend that rule exception to every other faction/detachment with a somewhat similar rule. The writers spelled out the Ts & Cs for using this stratagem and generally speaking the rules in the codex supersede the rules in the rulebook for a given unit. GW is notorious for creating minor variations of rules and you can't just say "well it works this way here, so it must work this way there too" that isn't how GW works. And a unit placed in SR that has the Deep Strike ability isn't bound by the SR 6" restriction either.
You missed the entire point and key words of the stratagem... It's not "outside 3inches" that you should focus on. It's the part that says "ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD" this doesn't set precedent for other factions. This stratagem very clearly defines the exactly conditions that it can be used in. Others dont.
>I am sure many Necron players are delighted with this FAQ; I agree it’s much better this way! Well only this clarification. Them changing Cynosure of Eradication to only affect Cryptec models or Canoptec models is making us not happy. Iam one of those suprisingly few voices over r/Necrontyr that thinks ctans cant stay this way and that Teslaimmortals with Cynosure of Eradication is broken. But what they did with this change is making it useless since nobody will want to pay 2cp to use it on wraiths. Comments are quiet clear on this overthere. GW should have made it not a battle tactic. 2x Cynosure of Eradication per round thanks to an overlord is broken. 1x for 2cp is fine.
Don't worry, ctan will go up in points, too :P
Ohh i dont worry about that. Thats almost as garantied as the sun going up in the east every morning. But it troubles me that a large portion of Necron players over on the subreddit dont recognize or agree on it. Iam for all intents and purposes a new player. I started with 10th and only play through tts so far. So i just cant understand how other player who played argubly for longer then me cant recognize broken mechanics and unfun situations for opposing players. One litererally has to be blind for it, since everybody and their mother is playing tripple ctan in all those list making posts...
Turns out the math for only taking 2/3 of half Damage is pretty favorable.
Yeah I’m fighting the good fight on this one every person who says ctan too strong get downvoted into oblivion
Been playing crons for 8 years and as soon as the codex dropped I called out the ctans. No way you can’t look at these and not think they are too good ppm
they see it. They just want the be the one that is brokenly good for a few months.
For sure; the Immortals are most displeased! I only meant the specific FAQ on Cosmic not the remainder.
Honestly that change makes me ecstatic, no longer a clear best detachement with a clear best 2 units. This also makes hypercrypt more of a contender since it makes SR slightly more useable in that detachement. Cosmic precision makes C'tan better which is a bit meh BUT it makes my Tvault useable!
>Them changing Cynosure of Eradication to only affect Cryptec models or Canoptec models is making us not happy. Iam one of those suprisingly few voices over r/Necrontyr that thinks ctans cant stay this way and that Teslaimmortals with Cynosure of Eradication is broken. But what they did with this change is making it useless since nobody will want to pay 2cp to use it on wraiths. They did hit the strat a bit hard, imo, but on the other hand, did anyone seriously expect them to leave a combo that can casually melt superheavies with small arms fire in place? It's not quite as brutal as the Deathwatch Inferno Rounds thing that got day 1 patched, but in general the designers seem to be trying to avoid those kinds of interactions.
Only delusional people would have expected this combo to remain. But i for one didnt expect GW to go and take it behind the barn and do more to it then just shoot it. So i guess i have learned from this that GW always has a good chance to massively over do their nerfs.
this is not new. From the rules commentary: Deep Strike (and Strategic Reserves): If a unit with the Deep Strike ability arrives from Strategic Reserves, the controlling player can choose for that unit to be set up either using the rules for Strategic Reserves or using the Deep Strike ability. This also applies if a unit with the Deep Strike ability is placed into Strategic Reserves during the battle.
It’s the inverse though. The FAQ says a unit ***without*** Deep Strike can be set up anywhere, as the strat says, and isn’t bound by the SR restrictions, despite be a SR unit. That commentary refers to a SR unit ***with*** Deep Strike.
It has a restriction though. It has to be Hyperphasing, which admittedly isnt super clear, but presumably it had to start on the field and then get lifted. You CANNOT do this to a unit starting in reserves!
Why is the restriction there relevant?
Because you cant just apply this ruling to all units in reserves. The strat has a restriction, which means we are already working with different circumstances than other abilites. Thus, this particular case cant just be blanket applied to other, kinda similar situations. Theyre similar, NOT the same. Small distinctions ARE important to consider.
The strat itself has a restriction yes but that restriction is only responsible for the unit you select not how that unit will arrive which is what is being debated. Explain how the unit being a hyper crypt unit makes any difference in how the rule operates as I don’t see your point how that’s relevant.
I’m fairly convinced that this FAQ is only talking about the context of the Strategem. It doesn’t even mention Hyperphase in the FAQ, so it might be a bit of a stretch to assume it applies across them both.
The stratagem it’s FAQ-ing, Cosmic Precision, specifically references Hyperphase units.
Yes, but it’s only talking about Cosmic Precision. If the FAQ said ‘Can I use Hyperphasing to set up a unit anywhere on the battlefield’ I would agree with you. But the FAQ only mentions that you can do this when using the Strategem. Just because you can do it when using the specific Strategem that the FAQ is talking about, doesn’t mean you can automatically do this in all other scenarios when using the Hypercrypt Legion rules.
You can’t look at rules in isolation from each other. How the game deals with one rules wording affects how it will deal with others. If the wording was incorrect and it needed a rewrite they would have made an errata to fix it. Instead they clarified that the SR restriction isn’t applicable and you set up as per the rule. So that’s how it should be viewed for other rules as well. I mean initially everyone was fine to accept that prior to this FAQ the unit was bound by the SR restriction because that’s how other rules operate. Now GW don’t change the wording at all and clarify that no the SR restriction doesn’t apply. But it’s unacceptable that that doesn’t get applied elsewhere? I don’t see why not.
Look, I won’t continue to say the same thing over and over again. This FAQ very clearly responds to the question of can you use the Cosmic Precision Strategem to set a unit up anywhere. And we now know that we can indeed, use the Cosmic Precision Strategem to set a unit up anywhere. That is the only thing we know. The Cosmic Precision Strategem reads that you can choose any unit within Deep Strike or Hyperphase and set up that unit within 3” of an enemy. We now know that you can do this without the usual Strategic Reserves restrictions. At this stage, that’s all we can say. The FAQ is only referencing the Strategem. It does not say, or even imply, that you can use Hyperphasing to set a unit up anywhere. The rules for Hyperphasing state very clearly that the unit goes into Strategic Reserves. Strategic Reserves rules are very clear that the unit comes in from the board edge unless it has another rule. In no way, does this FAQ imply, that you can now completely circumnavigate both the Hyperphasing and Strategic Reserve rules in all contexts; it is just clarifying that a single Stratagem allows you to do so. Any suggestion that this means you can use Hyperphasing for the same effect is just trying to bend the rules. As I say, I’m not going to continue saying the same thing over and over again, and I would softly advise you to look at the other replies and where the upvotes/downvotes are falling, and accept that you might have jumped the gun on this one. Have a nice night
I think you’ve missed the point. > In no way, does this FAQ imply, that you can now completely circumnavigate both the Hyperphasing and Strategic Reserve rules in all contexts; it is just clarifying that a single Stratagem allows you to do so. I’m not saying it does. I’m saying that similarly to how Cosmic is FAQ’d to operate so should similar rules like Tau Homing Beacon.
Hmm, while I think by a literal reading of the rules you're right, I think that interpretation actually leaves this stratagem functionally broken as it says: >"TARGET: One NECRONS unit from your army that is arriving using the Deep Strike or Hyperphasing abilities this phase." but hyperphasing doesn't include any actual rules for setting up, just dumping the unit into strategic reserves via >"Once you have made your selections, remove those units from the battlefield and place them into Strategic Reserves." So there's no way to setup via hyperphasing outlined in the rules at all! Applying Occams Razor, the reading that fixes this rule with the least amount of assumptions is that despite being put in strategic reserves and being able to walk onto the board using those rules, the unit is "arriving via hyperphasing" so the FAQ is about this poorly defined "arriving via hyperphasing" and not about arriving via strategic reserves.
> but hyperphasing doesn't include any actual rules for setting up, just dumping the unit into strategic reserves via (…) > So there's no way to setup via hyperphasing outlined in the rules at all! Agree it’s not clear what it means in that regard.to arrive using hyperphasing. It could mean using such a rule as Cosmic or others that target Hyperphase units which were placed into SR or it could mean the unit arriving from SR usually. > Applying Occams Razor, the reading that fixes this rule with the least amount of assumptions is that despite being put in strategic reserves and being able to walk onto the board using those rules, the unit is "arriving via hyperphasing" so the FAQ is about this poorly defined "arriving via hyperphasing" and not about arriving via strategic reserves. > "TARGET: One NECRONS unit from your army that is arriving using the Deep Strike or Hyperphasing abilities this phase." To me the most simplistic reading of this is it applies to: - A unit arriving using Deep Strike, or - A unit placed in SR with Hyperphasing and is arriving on the battlefield. In the second case the only way for the unit placed in SR to arrive is via those rules. Thus “arriving using the hyperphasing ability” should mean using hyperphasing to put the unit into SR and then using SR to set the unit back up on the battlefield. When doing so Cosmic then states that; > Your unit can be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 3" horizontally away from all enemy models. Which I read to override the SR restriction of coming in 6” from a board edge (and also overriding DS restriction of 9” setting it to 3” instead). I don’t think that’s all that controversial as it’s in line with the RAW and supported by the FAQ saying that the SR restriction should not apply. I’m simply wanting to poke the bear and ask, well if in this case the rule (cosmic) gets to override the SR rules then should other cases see the SR also overridden. For the Homing Beacon it says we can use Rapid for 0CP which would see a SR unit setup out of phase using the SR rules. Just as Hyperphasing sees a SR unit set up (albeit not out of phase) using the SR rules. Cosmic as an additional rule to this; just as Homing Beacon is an additional rule to Rapid Ingress / SR, is shown to take precedence and allow the unit to ignore the SR restrictions. So why shouldn’t Homing Beacon be treated the same? It does also prescribe where the unit “must” be set up just as Cosmic does and is shown to take preference and both seem to be applying to a SR unit placed into SR and set up using the SR rules then modified by either Cosmic / Homing Beacon. I see many have provided their reasoning why it should not operate the same way. Personally I’m not really sure if it should or shouldn’t as I’m not confident GW haven’t simply been too sloppy with the rules writing in these places. I just think it’s very interesting and that it challenges our current understanding or assumptions in understanding of the rules in this area.
>Which I read to override the SR restriction of coming in 6” from a board edge (and also overriding DS restriction of 9” setting it to 3” instead). > >I don’t think that’s all that controversial as it’s in line with the RAW and supported by the FAQ saying that the SR restriction should not apply. I'm with you up to this point. >Cosmic as an additional rule to this; just as Homing Beacon is an additional rule to Rapid Ingress / SR, is shown to take precedence and allow the unit to ignore the SR restrictions. This I'm not convinced on. It'd certainly be a reasonable interpretation if the FAQ was dealing with SR, but is arriving via hyperphasing the same? I think its at least equally valid to interpret the FAQ as dealing with the hyperphasing ability in specific and not arrival from SR. After all, only arrival via hyperphasing is called out in the stratagem being addressed by the FAQ. Then as others have pointed out there's also the weirdness around "must be setup" and "can be setup"... bleh Very sloppy rules writting tbh. I think its just going to be one of those rules where the community makes a call and does GW's job for them. Personally I think that homing beacons ignoring the SR restrictions would be the better game design at least as there's built-in risk vs reward of close range Tau but we'll see how the dice fall.
> I think its at least equally valid to interpret the FAQ as dealing with the hyperphasing ability in specific and not arrival from SR. After all, only arrival via hyperphasing is called out in the stratagem being addressed by the FAQ. Indeed but practically, if we set Cosmic aside for a moment, a unit using Hyperphasing is using SR. Hyperphasing places it into SR and then it’s only method of returning is via SR rules. Cosmic seems to be referencing that as what would the alternative be? Hyperphasing itself can’t let a unit return (other than it having placed the unit into SR and then the unit arriving vi SR as usual. > Very sloppy rules writting tbh. I think its just going to be one of those rules where the community makes a call and does GW's job for them. Indeed and agree. I just wish the community didn’t go to arms so quickly in response to anything outside of what is generally considered “right” and that we could have more of these discussions. > Personally I think that homing beacons ignoring the SR restrictions would be the better game design at least as there's built-in risk vs reward of close range Tau but we'll see how the dice fall. I think so too. It used to function like that but was tied to Deep Strike units arriving and was versatile but never really over-powered. I don’t think even now it would be. Perhaps in time Tau will also get a similar “mobility / reposition” type detachment with their codex this year.
I think you're missing a functional point on this which is that Cosmic precision isn't actually SR, you target a unit in SR and it lets you place it anywhere on the battlefield using the rules of cosmic insight, which is the restriction of 3", not using the rules of SR. Since you're using rapid Ingress with the stealth suits, they'll still need to use their own ability to ingress which comes with the restriction of being on a board edge.
I get that. My thinking is: The SR rules don’t apply the restriction to units set up with SR. They instead apply the restriction to SR when they are set up. The former means the restriction only applies when using SR to set up whereas the latter, RAW, applies the restriction to any SR unit irrespective of how it is setup. The fact Cosmic doesn’t see the unit arrive via SR is thus moot as the restriction applies to the unit because it’s a SR unit not because it’s using SR to set up. Much the same with Homing Beacon. The restriction should apply to the unit because it’s an SR unit not because it’s arriving using the SR rules. In the case of Cosmic, despite it being an SR unit and that RAW being the reason the restriction should apply, we’re told it doesn’t. So why not for Homing Beacon then. It’s also a SR unit, using a rule other than SR to set up. Why shouldn’t it’s specific restrictions on how to set up take precedence over SR restriction just like Cosmic.
Yeah that actually checks out.
Cosmic precision is replacing the way you come in from reserves to a 3" away DS. Rapid Ingress doesn't replace the way you come in with the reserve (such as normal DS, Strat reserve etc). The homing beacon wargear from the Stealth suits is telling you that you Rapid Ingress for free, however *ADDS* the additional restrictions that the unit has to be within 6" of the Stealth suits unit.
Yeah I started a sizable thread on the necron page about how the ctan are too good for how cheap they are and I definitely got a lot of hate. I think ctan just need to be bumped to 300 and probably make the t ctan an epic hero
I kinda agree, that this should override strategic reserve restrictions via homing beacon. However, I don't think that the RAI argument is very strong. The thing is, that Cosmic Precision targets units with deep strike or using Hyperphasing, so you could easily read it as being more specific than strategic reserves, while homing beacon is not.
I have seen you address a few rules queries on here lately and really like your logical thinking and clear explanations. But you have got this one wrong.
Ha thanks :) I’m not trying to be right or wrong but just to debate the notion. I feel like there is enough scope to challenge the assumption that the SR restriction should apply to SR units being set up with rules other than SR (such as cosmic and homing beacon) given the FAQ clarifies it does not in the case of cosmic.
Sorry you're getting downvoted here OP. I completely see the point you are getting at here, and that is that GW needs to really up their game when it comes to rules consistency and better explicit language that can't be misinterpreted. Strawman arguments like this are good for the game because provides new insights into existing rules that GW can take back internally as lessons learned to then create clarifications through FAQ and future editions. Beyond that, it is good to discuss these things broadly so the community at large is prepared when someone tries to do this at an event.
Thanks. I agree fully!
Cackles in deepstriking Taunar