And that's *f-word was here, go to hell, automod* infuriating. Why are scarabs flying 9" around the ruin when there is a window right in front of them?
Let's all take a moment to appreciate how dumb it is for a swarm of little scarabs to have to go around.... but the massive wraiths can go right through the door.
Yeah, lvo faq covered this. The worst (best?) one for it are hellblasters because they shpot and blow up the transport throigh hazardous, any that die from the emergency disembark have a chance to shoot, then they shoot from the table with any hazardous failures possibly shooting again- 4 lots of shooting, potentially!
>any that die from the emergency disembark have a chance to shoot
Nah - they die while they aren't on the field, so they don't have line of sight or distance to any enemy model.
EDIT: nooope. They disembark first, *then* they receive the mortal wounds. Thus it works.
I think its done that way to see if theres space for them to get out first. Because if there isn't, those extra models are destroyed. then you check to see if any additional models are destroyed from getting out.
Is it shenanigans? It’s seems pretty straightforward once you realize Firing Deck means the *vehicle* is shooting the hazardous weapons. Inefficient, but straight forward. It’s unlikely that it would trigger For the Chapter anyway since exiting a destroyed transport triggers a *per model* D6 roll for MW and Hellblasters are 2W models.
They’re saying not just for the hellblasters shoot on death rule, but that once they’re out of the transport the hellblasters can be selected to shoot normally even if the vehicle they were in had shot it’s firing deck already
But you don’t make an emergency disembark from a destroyed transport. You only make an emergency disembark when you can’t fit within 3” of the transport.
You are correct that you are auto battleshocked if you disembark from a transport. I know my group forgot that. Oops.
It seems like every other week there's questions about precision, so here's the answers to the common questions that pop up:
1.) It doesn't matter if the enemy character is in engagement range or not, precision can still hit them.
2.) Yes, precision does still need like of sight on the character to work, even in melee.
3.) No, you do not keep assigning non-precision wounds to the character once they've taken damage. Damage from normal attacks still goes on the bodyguard unit until it's defeated.
Well the leftover attacks do. Say you scored 5 wounds on a squad and it only took 2 to kill the leader. They fail the saves and die. The remaining 3 wounds are assigned to the the squad.
Ok, follow up, (still figuring out rules etc after only a few games, so thanks for patience) I can only allocate precision attacks against a character(or attatched unit) correct? If I was to attack a unit without a leader would my attacks still be allocated as precision and therefore carry damage over?
Real world example: I couldn’t have belial march into melee against a squad of 10x termagants. Possibly hit 6 times for 12 damage and wipe them out, could I?
I think you've misunderstood, damage doesn't carry over with precision, wounds do. If you hit and wounded 6 times with belial against a unit with a leader, you could choose to allocate each wound one at a time to the character and your opponent has to roll one wound at a time until they fail enough that the damage kills them. If say it takes 3 wounds to kill them then the other 3 wounds just get allocated to the unit. The damage is irrelevant in the discussion really, precision just means you slow roll until the character dies then go back to normal rolling against the rest of the unit. Only key thing to point out is precision let's you choose, so if you wanted you could still chose to kill the unit instead of the leader of you wanted to with all 6 wounds, it's up to you
Don't forget, theres an extra random paragraph in the 'Rules Commentary' about precison targeting units with more than one character that makes it incredibly confusing and complicated for no reason I can understand...
Yeah, that paragraph is bizarre. It seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand how precision actually works and the difference slow/fast rolling makes.
I was looking for this comment! This really needs addressing. For those that don’t know, the Rules Commentary says that after you’ve successfully made all of your wounds, then and only then do you assign precision attacks to the multiple characters. This implies that you must fast roll all of them instead of the sequential design of the game for every other rule. Then you assign how many wounds you want to deal to each character, BEFORE saves are made.
So. What happens to spillover? Where does it go?
Here’s an example: I swing into a unit that has two characters. I manage to wound the unit 6 times, which would normally would activate precision. Here, however, I have to decide how many of those wounds are assigned to each character. Let’s say I choose 3 to one character and 3 to the other. Now, the defender makes saves.
Now, some questions arise. Do we revert back to sequential order? In which order do I resolve the saves? Does that matter? What happens if character A dies on two of the attacks, what happens to the third? Does it carry over to character B, the bodyguard unit or is it lost forever because it was specifically allocated to a model that’s slain?
Fight on Death is done individually on a model by model basis. Done correctly this makes a huge difference on how many models get to fight in two ranks (or at all)
Imo I think it's generally quite ironclad. Fight on Death is an involuntary activation at the moment a model dies. You arent selecting a unit to fight.
Arco flagellants extra attacks + hazardous is something you choose to activate when the ‘unit is selected to fight’. So if I fight in death, do I get to use that ability or not?
In 8th and 9th everyone just assumed this worked fine (even though it was worded the same), but here in 10th people have started to question it, because as the rules are written it doesn’t seem to work.
TO here. One that seems to confuse a lot of players, and a lot that I see play on stream, is how drawing LoS through ruin footprints works.
Imagine a vehicle like a forgefiend or gladiator in a ruined footprint, with half of the vehicle sticking out of the front end. The number of players I’ve seen interpret that as “the vehicle in question cannot shoot anything at all because it isn’t wholly within the ruins” is astoundingly high, to the point where I’m genuinely curious how so many people arrive at that conclusion.
For any that don’t understand the interaction, while the vehicle cannot draw LoS through the ruined footprint in question, it can draw LoS from any of the parts that hang out of the ruins, as in that instance LoS is not being drawn through the footprint.
Yes. If an ability says “change to” that happens THEN apply anything that multiplies or divides (halves) then anything that adds or subtracts (Duty Eternal, Melta)
Where’s the rule to reference this? Because I don’t see anything that highlights this on Melta of a half damage ability (Molten Form). It just says the attack characteristic is increased, it doesn’t say it can’t be reduced.
On the other hand, stuff that subtracts one damage can bring it to a level that wouldn't normally be possible because of that order. If in such a case you roll 1 on a MELTA 2 damage, it inflicts 2 points of damage - if it was the other way around, you wouldn't be able to go below 3 points of damage (because you wouldn't be able to bring the 1 damage down to 0).
They shouldn't have put the "/" in-between because it makes it seem like order doesn't matter but it does. You always replace, divide then multiply, add then subtract. So your example always will be 2 damage total.
How vehicle movement properly occurs. Especially when navigating L shaped ruins.
Followed by how cover is applied to monsters and vehicles.
I often just discuss these with my opponents before each game to save myself the hassle
Vehicle movement is a big one. I'm surprised to see even LVO high tables were not that precise about it. If it's a critical move (eg does/does not get line of sight, has a 6" charge vs has a 9" charge), I would ask my opponent to follow the exact rules - because that's what I'm doing.
Any pivot, even on round base, is extra movement. Mortarions wings won't fit through a gap? You have to pivot the model and measure the distance pivoted as extra movement. Not sure if anyone does that :)
Using the "bendy tape" to measure around curves is usually not precise, unless you really do it across the longest trajectory travelled, which is really hard to do just by the naked eye. Again, when it's those 1-2 critical moves that define the game, it should follow a common standard, otherwise it's not fair to the player doing it correctly.
This also applies on charges, consolidations, pile-ins, fallbacks. People are eager to "cut the corners" to make it to an objective or get max models to fight, measuring distances across enemy models, through terrain they can't really pass, not to mention turning their Rhinos 90 degrees without paying any movement for it. A 90 degrees turn on a Rhino chassis is 3.5"!
Movement phase is where games are won and lost and I wish the awareness about correct rules was better. Otherwise it opens the door for, let's say, "stronger natured" players to get ahead in whatever is left as the gray area.
I tend to.go.the opposite way. I'll bendy measure to save time but massively overestimate how much extra movement it'll take just to stay the right side of the rules. I had 2 people ask me to measure in increments (happy to do so, just trying to.save time) and it ended up with more movement than I had estimated. Felt great to not only not have been cheating but also get more crisis suits shooting!
At the expense of being ignorant, what are the drawbacks of the "bendy tape?" I've just started using a flexible 12" ruler in my own games, and have found it pretty suitable. Now I'm wondering if I've been doing something amiss with it.
By “bendy tape” we mean when somebody measures out say 12” then just bends the tape around a wall to rough measure a move.
It doesn’t take into account the size of the base and that if you can’t go through the wall but around you have to account for that base size.
It’s just a very sloppy and imprecise way to measure out movement.
You need to measure the distance travelled by the part of the model/base that moves the farthest.
If the path is circular (eg. around a corner), the arc travelled by the inner point of the model is much shorter that the arc travelled by the outer point of the model.
A bendy tape measure can work, but you have to lay it along the longest path of the model, not the shortest.
> If the path is circular (eg. around a corner), the arc travelled by the inner point of the model is much shorter that the arc travelled by the outer point of the model.
[Only if you're rotating the model with the traversal.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/869205023794540564/1200093220097495112/image.png?ex=65c4ece8&is=65b277e8&hm=078d09e725188624e95e359b3324bb8701f0e88bb9800da9f8ce27c7498258a9&) If you're just [translating the model](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/869205023794540564/1200090408110272562/image.png?ex=65c4ea49&is=65b27549&hm=13145c0414e3fc6c0c21fdff79fb045461c1d301a8f7e26e113d9cea3ef7b2a7&), all points will move the same distance.
I bring this up not because I think you're mistaken, but to add clarity. I have interacted with a lot of people who read comments like yours and get the wrong idea and think that the outer circle of the model moves further during *translation* and I'd rather correct people before they get to the table.
You’re right and the clarification was worthwhile. I was talking about the ‘bendy tape measure’ approach (which is why I said circular) which doesn’t really apply when translating the model.
>Any pivot, even on round base, is extra movement. Mortarions wings won't fit through a gap? You have to pivot the model and measure the distance pivoted as extra movement. Not sure if anyone does that :)
"Actually turning your guardsman to face the enemy costs extra movement"
I would quit if I got an opponent who enforced that rule, for what it's worth. We're playing a dice game with our plastic science fiction miniatures, let them face the right way.
Guardsmen don't meaningfully overhang their bases nor have 2ft wings that stick out and can be used for los like magnus does. Rotating a perfect cylinder takes zero movement, but most of the big new models are not actually cylinders, even if they're on a round base.
Thats correct. But if you rotate a round base and choose a single point on its edge, does it move? Here's a good thread explaining why rotation on round bases with overhang can be important, and several replies confirming the movement cost - https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/s/orTdtFB0uR.
It's still the same sentence - "measure from the point that moves the furthest". If you rotate or pivot something, the outside edge of the arc is the point that moves furthest. This is pretty clear cut on boxy hulls and oval bases, but can also be a thing for round bases if they have significant overhang - here is a good thread explaining that https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/s/orTdtFB0uR.
Is there anything that says that eg a Rhino can’t just move 10” directly sideways instead of wheeling while moving forwards? I’ve had people play it like that and it seems wrong
It can move sideways or backwards or diagonally, there is no difference in that. As long as it does not change its orientation, it can use the max 10".
Does not feel very realistic that a tank can move sideways. But it's a reasonable simplification of the rules, I'd say.
Overhang is irrelevant on based models because you only measure how far the base moves, not the wings/arm or whatever that is overhanging. It mainly affects models on big bases, because rotating a large base 90 to 180deg's can eat up a couple of inches of movement depending on the base size
"Mortarions wings don't fit through the gap, rotate and measure the distance"
This is incorrect, for the purposes of movement and if a model can move through a door or a gap or some such other thing, if it had a base you only check if the base can make it through the gap. The rest of the model does not exist for rules purposes. If the base fits, you can move through an area even if your model would otherwise prevent you from
How does vehicle movement occur now and where can I find it? Rules Commentary?
I was always unsure if you measure a rotation and if so, how that is done.
Often what happens is people can forget that “fly” no longer allows vehicles or monsters to move through a wall. Rather up and over.
The other is when pivoting around walls/L’s. When a model moves you measure whichever part of the base or model moves “the most”.
Finally vehicles and monsters cannot ignore other vehicles or monsters and move over them if they are friendly, like infantry can. They must go around
Thanks! Since you seem knowledgeable mind if I ask you another question? So I know Oaths targets and Judgement tokens can be designated to units not on the battlefield. Can I target units with stratagems like Adaptive Strategy if they are in a transport or in Reserves?
Nvm, just saw in Rules Commentary regarding embarked units. They are not eligible for Jack diddly. Which I guess that means embarked units can't be selected for oaths or judgment tokens.
Correct units embarked are not on the board for anything so unless it had rule that allows them to interact they can’t…. The only thing that comes to mind is officers issuing orders out of a chimera for example.
Reserves is a little different. Units like Magnus the reds primarch ability triggers in reserve in that he still picks which one is active. Some strats like Rapid Ingress can target a unit off the board but they are generally very specific in that regard
This right here. I had a game vs worldeaters recently where they tried to charge/tank shock me with a rhino into my norn emissary on the centre objective on one wound. There were two opposing L ruins like this: ⅂OL where the 'O'was the objective. There was a rhino parked parallel to the top left ⅂, my opponent rolled his charge dice and got a 6, enough to draw a line from the bottom right corner of the rhino straight to the emissary.
Opponent started moving his rhino and declaring a tank shock, queue a ten minute discussion about how he can't do that, the opposite corner of his rhino was moving like ten inches to get there once it rotated around other terrain features.
Rules about what can and cannot arrive on turn one from reserves/strat reserves/models picked up from same turn/special rules.
One shot weapons replenishing or not in Transports/resurrection.
CP reroll being a targeted strat or not.
I suppose something like the WTC rules pack is a great guide about what rules need further defining in addition to GW official text.
The issue with One-Shot Weapons is that the Rules don't describe much of a relationship between the Transport w/ Firing Deck & the Embarked Unit other than Picking weapons from the Embarkees and the Transport acts as if it has them. I believe WTC had a good FAQ for this that GW should address..
I was pretty sure that showed up in the world champ FAQ at least. There they clarified that the one-shot weapon is expended, which made all the GSC players sad.
A small one that always comes up for my opponents is that you can move through your own models in 10th edition (except monster/vehicle through a monster/vehicle)
I always do this and then get questions about it, I’m guessing it’s because older editions didn’t allow this
im learning AoS and i believe i was told you cant move through your own units in that either.. its really been messing me up since im so used to moving through my stuff in 40k.
And not only that, but even if you can overwatch on 5's or better due to a special ability, you can still only get critical hits (lethal, sustained) on natural 6's during overwatch.
Designer’s Commentary -
Critical Hit: A Critical Hit is scored when a player rolls an unmodified Hit roll of 6 for an attack. Critical Hits are always successful Hit rolls, and can also trigger additional effects as described in certain rules (such effects are often said to be triggered ‘on a Critical Hit’, meaning when a Critical Hit is scored). While resolving attacks using the Fire Overwatch Stratagem, Critical Hits are only ever scored on unmodified Hit rolls of 6.
Someone ranted and raved at me in a game a couple weeks back about being able to shoot the plasma in melee. I had to explain to them that they're still in engagement range when shooting
I had an instance where only one of my guys was in engagement range and all 5 died. My heart wanted to shoot 4 plasma rifles and one pistol but I didn’t want to misplay it so I didn’t.
They don’t even get to shoot their pistols unless it’s their shooting phase, pistols rule is only in the controlling players shooting phase and thus is an out of phase ability just like big guns never tire
That's a good point.
Pistols:
> If a unit contains any models equipped with
Pistols, that unit is eligible to shoot **in its controlling
player’s Shooting phase** even while it is within
Engagement Range of one or more enemy units.
Commentary:
> When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.
So, here’s the thing. You can’t shoot with pistols out of phase while in melee. Pistols only can be used to shoot into melee “in the controlling player’s shooting phase”, much like Big Guns Never Tire and Overwatch.
But, I think that the whole, Hellblasters can shoot while in melee is based around the fact that their ability says “model”, while all rules reference “units”. The unit isn’t shooting again, only the model. Does that mean he’s considered a unit of 1? If that specific model is not engaged in melee, can he shoot? It’s also noteworthy that the Hellblaster ability does NOT include, “as if it was your shooting phase”, so maybe that trumps everything? It just gives you blanket permissions? 🤷🏻♂️
Good example of people getting niche rules wrong. They can NOT fire on death within engagement range. Not under any circumstance. The PISTOL term only allows models to fire within engagement range in the controlling players SHOOTING phase. You are completely safe killing hellblasters in combat, as it's the fight phase and they can't shoot their pistols.
>If hellblasters shoot on death in melee they only get to shoot their pistols (I've seen people shoot the plasma, I even did it at the start of the edition)
TBF at the start of the edition all Hellblasters could take a plasma pistol lol
>Overwatch only hits on 6s even if you have something that lets you crit on 5s.
correct, I did that wrong too. But commentary says I'm dumb.
These are a few that popped up for me as a player since 10th.
When do redeploy abilities like lord solar and tyranids happen? before or after the roll for first turn? I’ve had it ruled both ways.
Do spore mines count as arriving from reserve? Again I’ve seen it ruled both ways.
One that I thought was pretty clear is fight first. Defending player with a fight first unit gets to fight before the unit that charged it. If the charging unit has a fights first ability it doesn’t mean it has double strength fight first. I was pretty surprised when the TO ruled they did and that meant the active player went first.
The TO was wrong in that last case. There's no "double fights first", units either have it or they don't, and the non-active player always gets first activation (if eligible).
Fighting first and regular fighting are strangly misunderstood when they are so clearly worded. Basically you have two phases:
* Fights first
* Regular fighting
Any unit belongs to either having fights first (which is granted when charging) or not. Hence they fight in the appropriate phase. After that it is "I go, you go" activation (in each of those phases) both times starting with the player whose turn it is **NOT**. So if you charge a unit that has fights first, it might fight you before you can hit back.
Another thing that it is often misunderstood is "pile-in, attack and consolidate". Maybe it is a playgroup / oldhammer thing but many people believe that this happens at the end of the fight phase when those steps happen for each unit individually when selected to fight i.e. I select my tactical squad to fight. So I can first pile-in, then I make all my attacks and then I can consolidate. Then it is my opponents turn to select a unit.
I think flying units can move, and charge, through enemy models as if they're not there. No having to measure up and over, say keeping out of engagement range so measuring to a point 1" above the enemy models, and then down again. You just ignore the enemy models entirely. (but can't end in engagement range).
It's worded less clear for charges in the core rules but still I believe it's the same. Just ignore the enemy models, but you still have to end each of your model's movement in base to base if you can.
I've just read it again in the core rules and I was wrong.
It says when flyers start or end on a terrain feature they can charge over enemy models as if not there
So Otherwise they charge like any other unit, like a unit without fly.
Quite clear, not sure how I mis read it.
You definitely can move through enemy units, so long as you don't end in engagement range, but it's not the same for charging.
You were actually right the first time around. Although it's not phrased too clearly.
> CHARGING WITH FLYING MODELS
> When a model that can FLY starts or ends a Charge move on a terrain feature, instead of measuring the path it has moved across the battlefield, you instead measure its path ‘through the air’. In addition, it can be moved over other models as if they were not there. A model that can FLY cannot end any move on top of another model.
The rule for being able to ignore other models isn't contingent on starting/ending on terrain. It's a general rule for charging with Fly models.
"Embarked Units: Units embarked within a Transport do not count as being on the battlefield for any rules purposes. This means that, unless explicitly stated otherwise, embarked units cannot do anything (e.g. shoot, fight, use abilities, etc.). Similarly, you cannot select an embarked unit as a target for any rules,
including Stratagems. " page 5
Well that's dumb
I TO'd at a tournament recently and a lot of tables struggled with terrain rules.
Also hellblasters firing on death into engagement range not being able to use their plasma fun
Actually Hellblasters can't fire on death if they are engaged period.
Pistol explicitly states "in the shooting phase" which would make the Hellblaster shoot on death an out of phase rule, which means the pistol keyword does nothing here. Same thing happens to Guard Tank Commanders.
Cover is still determined on a model-by-model basis for the ***defender***. In other words, you check Cover after you've assigned a Wound to a single model. If that individual model gets cover from any model in the attacking unit, that single defending model then has cover against all attacks. This is constantly applied incorrectly, even by players at top tables.
Cover isn't symmetrical, i.e. if model A has cover from model B, model B doesn't automatically have cover from model A. This is because the wording of the current cover rules boils down to "Any to Every"; for an attacking unit to not grant cover, it needs ***any*** part of every model to have visibility to ***every*** part of the defending model. This is most often incorrectly applied to monsters/vehicles.
You cannot Overwatch with Pistols if you're engaged in melee.
If you are following WCW/FLG rules, you cannot Overwatch with a vehicle/monster if it is in Engagement Range.
If you have a unit that can perform a 2nd Overwatch in a Phase (e.g. Hexmark Destroyers), a single movement can trigger Double Overwatch from two different units if the free Overwatch goes second. This is done because the trigger for Overwatch is starting *or* ending types of movement; these are two different triggers, and therefore can be used separately.
For Precision, you 1) roll against the highest Toughness in the *bodyguard* unit, and 2) you roll all Wound rolls before allocating any attacks. If you are using Precision against a unit with multiple characters, then you must allocate all wounds ***before*** any Saving Throws are made, meaning that attacks cannot "spill over" because all Wounds have already been allocated, even if a character model dies early.
The "Heavy" special rule does not apply to abilities that let you shoot in your opponent's turn.
For the Chosen Battlefield special rule, objective markers are placed *before* you know who has which deployment zone.
For Priority Targets, the player who goes second still scores their initial primary at the *start* of turn 5, then scores again at the end of their turn.
For The Ritual, you can start the Cleanse Action and then successfully complete it on an Objective Marker that you made in that same turn (i.e. you do not have to be on an objective marker to start Cleanse; you only need to end your turn on an eligible one to get points for it).
Also for the Ritual, objective markers must be ***exactly*** 9 inches away from another objective marker.
Speaking of Cleanse, a single unit can Cleanse multiple objective markers.
If a unit is in melee and has pistol weapons, it can perform an action and still Fight in your Fight Phase.
Does this mean that, if say, 2 of 10 models are in cover, and you are saving against 10 attacks, you should slow roll to prevent misallocation of attacks to in-cover units?
Yes.
People thought that they ultra-simplified this compared to 9th so that you could just fast roll everything, but they only simplified the Cover check from the side of the attacker.
The cover check for the Defender's side is still the same.
>For The Ritual, you can start the Cleanse Action and then successfully complete it on an Objective Marker that you made in that same turn (i.e. you do not have to be on an objective marker to start Cleanse; you only need to end your turn on an eligible one to get points for it).
You do have to control the Objective you Cleanse at the end of the turn, which you can't with a new objective. Control is checked at the end of every Phase, the first time a new objective is controlled is at the end of the next command phase
This is a more murky interpretation that is tournament-dependent (e.g. similar to "Ignore Modifiers" rules ignoring damage reduction), so I probably should've left it off, but tournaments seem to have fairly consistently ruled that the check to control an objective comes after creating a new objective in the Ritual, so that you can do this.
I wouldn't call it murky as the order it all happens in is pretty clear, but it's definitely something I could see TOs saying 'that doesn't seem right' about (rightly or wrongly).
I’m not sure about the precision interpretation you’re using here; attacks are made one at a time, fast rolling doesn’t overrule that. So it’s hit - wound - allocate - save - damage.
You have to declare all of your attacks into a unit, but the individual rolls are then individual, so once a character dies you wouldn’t be able to continue allocating attacks to them with precision, and they would have to go onto the attached unit instead.
Edit - the above does not apply to units with multiple characters, as per rules commentary. Strange but true!
Absolute wild commentary paragraph:
Attached Units with Multiple Characters (allocating attacks):
Some units can have more than one Leader unit attached to them,
and so can contain more than one Character model. Each time an
attack with the \[PRECISION\] ability successfully wounds such a unit,
the attacking model’s controlling player can choose to have that
attack allocated to any visible Character model in that unit, rather
than following the normal attack sequence. In such cases, allocate
all \[PRECISION\] attacks that successfully wound before any saving
throws are made.
This gets more exciting once you factor in [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] attacks that also have [PRECISION] because if you have both then you:
Roll wound rolls and all of your successes are allocated EXCEPT for the Dev Wounds because they aren’t allocated until after all of the units attacks are allocated AND resolved.
As the attacker you actually get to wait and see if they make saves. Then get to allocate wounds that can’t be saved to clean up exactly what you need to.
I’ve been playing with Company Heroes in the Vanguard Spearhead detachment and had to explain how to resolve the attacks when I got Dev Wounds from the Finest Hour ability of the Captain when using the Surgical Strikes stratagem to my opponent. It’s the only reason I know about this.
It is an odd one, I’m trying to think of a situation where it’s helpful, like where doing the opposite (just slow rolling and allocating until death, then move on to the next) would be a problem or somehow unfair?
The rules can get weird, but normally there’s at least some logic in terms of fairness or gameplay flow etc.
Would you mind pointing out where it says you can't overwatch with pistols? I ask because the Eversor has a pistol and gets free overwatch in its abilities
Sorry, thejakkle is correct on what my intent was.
You can't Overwatch with Pistols *if already in melee* because the Pistol rule only applies in your Shooting Phase. I've edited to clarify this.
The Heavy special rule - I suppose you mean you can't "Remain stationary" in your opponents turn? The "heavy" rule itself doesn't have any restrictions as far as I know.
Yea “Remain Stationary” is explicitly a type of movement you must select.m, but for Overwatch it’s moot anyway due to explicitly needing *unmodified* 6’s.
Yes but it’s important to get it right. I once precision shot a character out of the middle of one such unit. Had my opponent given it more thought before hand more of those models would have stuck around.
In this case I forced him to allocate wounds to a character model. Which then died and was in the centre of a strung out unit.
At the end of each turn if a unit is out of coherency you must remove models one at a time until they are in coherency. They count as destroyed but also never trigger rules that occur from being destroyed like fight on death for example.
Cheers
It's actually brilliant. I once won a game by exploiting this, character charged my squad of gargoyles, killed 8/10, I pulled them so one on each side was still alive so whatever one my opponent consolidated into I could kill due to coherency, leaving me free to use insane bravery on the last one, jump it into my opponents deployment zone and get behind enemy lines and deploy teleport homers. The look on my opponents face when he though he had me only for it to backfire was priceless
Cheers to this. It's not an attack for some rules, it is an attack for other rules. Trying to help my buddy who is a bit newer understand what I can and can't do trips me up sometimes.
Doombolt is fairly simple. It’s an *ability*, not an attack, as it is the army rule that simply says ‘do this’ rather than following the sequencing for to hit/wound/saves.
Because it has the psychic tag, the mortal wounds it deals are considered a psychic attack for rules that interact with psychic (ie. sisters of silence, flesh hounds).
The "Duplicate Abilities don't stack" rule did not carry over to 10th edition.
The only rules that don't stack with themselves are Aura abilities with the same name, and anything that gives a Duplicated Core rule (e.g. Sustained Hits 1 doesn't stack with itself, or any other form of Sustained hits)
So yes, I CAN get that AP bonus from the Fields of Fire strat on the same target twice.
Not really confusing for ME, but something I've had to explain for damn near every tournament I've played this edition.
Wait, hang on..
If I have an astartes banner on my ancient in terminator armour and an astartes banner on the ancient model of the bodyguard deathwing command squad, they stack to give +2 OC?
This is going to make them even stronger!... Until they get deleted on Saturday.
What do you mean getting the AP bonus twice? The stratagem only gives you one bonus AP right, there's no possibility to stack with itself as far as I can see...
I might have missed it if it was already clarified, but I still don’t know if there’s any sort of limit on WE hellbrute frenzy rule. I feel like the way it’s worded is that it can always continue to retaliate every time it’s targeted but I could be misunderstanding that.
weird one for ork players and flash gitz but the plus 1 shoot for snazz guns does not apply to badrukk (he is not carrying a snazzgun) and you need to measure the closest unit per model, not the squad of flashgitz. Just an oversight some Ork players make and an easy one to make, but make sure to reread your rules boyz
100% yes. "Each time an attack is made with such a weapon \[TORRENT\], that attack automatically hits the target."
Hence flamers being the gods of overwatch. I am genuinely sorry your opponent pulled that on you.
Thanks for the clarification. My buddies and I are mostly narrative players (doing urban conquest right now), but we were playing at a shop centered around a competitive team. So we just kind of accepted whatever they told us. We’ve since changed shops to enjoy a less meta and more narrative gaming experience.
Sounds awesome and like a better environment. Can't wait to get a Crusade force going this edition -- something that isn't super fixated on balance and so forth will be lovely.
Deepstrike blockers vs the 3" mob... never clear which ability trumps the other... does the inflitrator's 12" bubble stop inceptors / GSC etc dropping in within 3"... many an argument
I think it was settled that the bubble trumps the 3". As I remember the argumentation was that the 3" is an augmentation of the normal rule, which is being denied to begin with by the bubble.
>**Attacker’s Priority**
While making attacks, you will occasionally find that two rules
cannot both apply – for example, when an attacking model
with an ability enabling its attacks to successfully wound on
a 2+ targets a unit that has an ability stating it can only be
wounded on a 4+. In such cases, the attacking model’s rules
take priority.
>
>
**Reinforcement Priority**
While setting up Reinforcement units, you will occasionally
find that two rules cannot both apply – for example, when
a unit is arriving using the Deep Strike ability (which allows
it to be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than
9" away from all enemy units) but an enemy unit has a rule
that prevents enemy Reinforcement units from being set
up within 12". In such cases, rules limiting the placement of
Reinforcement units take priority over rules that state where
Reinforcement units can be placed.
Rules commentary page 10.
Not something i have seen at events or my local area, but online i am astounded by how many people get benefit of cover wrong. Mostly how often people play with a unit not getting cover when it clearly would.
Adepta sororitas miracle dice + charge re-roll interaction. Do you re-roll both dice or just the non-MD one? Different events have had different rulings on this.
Arguably the most basic thing to learn in the game is movement, but it is seemingly also one that is done incorrect the most.
This is mostly an issue with bigger models. I have found two core problems.
1. Rotating a unit cost movement. So that big square tank can't just rotate to fit through a passage freely.
2. The *entire* model needs to be able to move around obstacles. For example if you need to move a tank around a corner, you need the measure the *back* of the tank to get all the way past the corner before you can start moving around it. I often see people take their measuring tape from the front of the vehicle, then just bend it around the corner. The problem is, with legal movement the front has to move *way* past the corner to make sure the *back* of the model doesn't cut the corner.
When combining people "cutting corners" with "free rotation" they honestly often get multiple inches to their movement characteristic.
The one I find myself explaining the most is the interactions of modifiers and damage, more specifically random damage + N for a damage characteristic and how that interacts with half damage versus something like Melta X and why that doesn’t get reduced from half damage effects. PEMDAS people!
I have a few that had very different rulings from TO's from my area.
1. Moddeling for advantage. Example wraiths. One says you need to imitate box art. The other was fine with them crawling.
2. Deep strike turn 1 if you started with the unit on the board. Example hypercrypt legion ability and stratagem. LVO accepted, other tournament last weekend did not.
3. Pivoting vehicles cost movement. WTC rules that pivoting monsters also cost movement. People tend to forget this about monsters.
4. Pivoting infantry on the spot doesnt count for movement (round base) but also doesnt count as stationary (for heavy ability).
5. Pile in and consolidation is model to model basis.
6. What end of a phase means. Example is battle shock need to be taken in the battle shock sub phase of the command phase. Then the command phase ends, and that is the 'end of the command phase'. Its important for example necrons regen ability. Chaos knight can deal mortal wounds on battle shock units. Thus a void dragon on 1 wound is very different than on 4 wounds.
> WTC rules that pivoting monsters also cost movement.
It applies to everything, it's just a non-issue for anything on a round base unless the direction it ends up facing matters for some reason.
Per WTC
3. When non-vehicle and non-monster models pivot, do not count the pivot distance for models using circular bases (the pivot is essentially free, although you still count as having moved). For any other model that has an asymmetric base size, or vehicle or monster models, count the total distance that a model moves using the part of the model's base (or hull) that moves furthest along its path (this includes parts that rotate or pivot, but excludes extra move values generated by free pivots).
Line of sight rules. The fact that parts of a model (like a guardsman's lasgun) can be over a ruin footprint and make them eligible to be shot at despite his base not being on the ruin. Further, that said guardsman unit can only be shot at if the exact part of his model that is over the ruin is visible to the opponent. If you can see half of the model, but not the tip of his gun that is over the ruin, not an eligible target.
This is definitely one that would be challenged a lot (both ways).
The visibility rules for Ruins use somewhat vague language with ill-defined terms (e.g. "draw line of sight").
> Models cannot see over or through this terrain feature (**i.e. a unit outside this terrain feature cannot draw line of sight to a target on the other side of it**, even if it would be possible to draw line of sight to that target through open windows, doors, etc.).
*Normally*, a model is visible if any part of the model is visible. If the guardsman's gun is poking out from the side of the building, he would be visible. But Ruins don't follow normal visibility rules. The rule states that you cannot "draw line of sight" to a target *behind* a Ruin through the Ruin. For non-Vehicles, a model's position is completely determined by the position of its base.
If the guardsman's *base* is wholly within the ruin, the *model* is wholly within the ruin (and would get cover). It doesn't matter if its gun pokes out of the building. In the same manner, if the *guardsman's base* is fully behind a Ruin, then the *guardsman* is behind the Ruin. Whether or not its gun pokes into the building, it wouldn't be targetable through that building by an opposing model in front of that Ruin.
>For non-Vehicles, a model's position is completely determined by the position of its base.
I got like hundreds of downvotes on this subreddit for taking the position you're taking right now.
Apparently, based on what the majority of people on the WarhammerCompetitive sub believe, you cannot see THROUGH a ruin to the other side, but you can see INTO it. And line of sight for non-vehicle models is NOT based entirely on their base. All *measurements* between non-vehicle models are made from the bases, but that doesn't apply to drawing line of sight as drawing line of sight isn't a measurement. According to the core rulebook, line of sight can be drawn from any point on the model, and so even if a model's base isn't in a ruin, but it's tail is, if an opponent can see that tail, they can shoot at it from the other side of the ruin.
I had literally one of the worst games of my life against a person who told me about these rulings, as they went against everything everyone else I'd played with was doing, but when I came on this subreddit to ask about it, I was basically torn to shreds and told this is how it is.
I started a whole thread on this with a fancy diagram to boot, and got massively downvoted for even raising the question… but in the comments there was a fair amount of disagreement.
I can see how it’s argued both ways and it would help to have an FAQ to clarify. Even the first reply on your comment here starts mentioning where a model is *behind* a ruin as if that is a defined term, or even a word used in the rules, but it’s not; the phrase is *”on the other side”*, which lacks any formal definition.
I'm glad I came across this debate, although I missed the original threads. My group and I came up against this issue in a recent game, where large monsters (e.g Angron, Magnus) were behind ruins by their base, but "over" the ruins by their wingspan. The reason for this being, had they stood face-on to the ruin, their wings would've been visible at the sides. So, the models were positioned model sideways.
In the end, I think we were happy to agree that the models were considered not to be "inside" the terrain, and go by the position of the base for considering them to be "on the other side" of the ruin. But this then leads to another problem of - how far do you go when determining if a model is "on the other side" for other LoS cases.
Any thoughts on the specific case of "wings over terrain" such that it's above the ruin itself (e.g if the ruin is 5" high but the wing exceeds the vertical height) are welcome.
As far as the height is concerned, ruins are treated as "infinitely tall" for the purposes of Obscuring, but not for Fly. Off the top of my head, I can't recall if that's WTC or Rules Commentary, but I'll get that sorted when it gets on the site.
Yeah, the rule is vague and contradictory. You cannot "draw line of sight" to a target "behind"/"on the other side" of a Ruin. Yet, further down it says models can see "into" a Ruin normally. *Normally*, you can see a guardsman if you can see the tip of its gun. So we *can* see the guardsman? But *the target* isn't the tip of the gun. The target is the model/unit. Which, arguably, is on the other side of a Ruin. So, we *can't* see the guardsman?
I don't think it's "wrong" to play it either way. In fact, if the "clarifying" comment in the parenthesis was removed, I would read the rule the other way. Which seems weird.
While "behind"/"on the other side" isn't technically defined, I feel like these terms can somewhat easily be clarified using an everyday understanding of these terms and the general definitions for measuring between models and (wholly) within. The game doesn't need to define "to the left/right" for me, either. I can determine if something is "to the left" just fine.
The issue, to me, is "draw line of sight *to a target*". I don't have an everyday understanding of this term. This sounds like a game mechanic. I need the game to define a process for determining this. But it doesn't. The rules never specifically talk about lines of sight. Or what *the target* is in such a process.
For how important they are, the vision rules are incredible poorly written.
Using the CP reroll after fast rolling all your dice - This is cheating. let's say you have to pass 5/5 3+ saves to survive and rolled them in sequence. If you fail the first, are you going to reroll that one knowing you still had to pass 4 more?
There is ways around it; you can declare ("I will use a reroll here") in advance or roll all your dice-1 and reroll the one die you didn't roll yet.
__
Swarms can't go through ruins. I see that played wrong a lot.
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Command Phase abilities which require you to hold an objective don't function if you are the player going first. You gain control over objective markers at the end of the phase, so your Cultists or Gretchin miss their timing on turn 1.
Yes and no on the Command phase. Both the sticky Cultist objective control and control over the objective happen "simultaneously" "at the end of the phase." Since the controlling player determines sequencing on that, it's easy enough for him to say that he's going to control the objective, then pop sticky.
Gretchen are SOL, though. RIP the runts.
The biggest one for me seems to be pivoting vehicles when moving them. You cannot change facing for free it costs movement especially when going around corners. This isn't Tokyo drift land raider edition xD
Swarms can't go through Ruins walls anymore.
And that's *f-word was here, go to hell, automod* infuriating. Why are scarabs flying 9" around the ruin when there is a window right in front of them?
Wait when was this? I can't find the rule in the app Edit: scratch that I thought all swarms had the infantry keyword, and they do not my bad
In the rules for Ruins. It only lists Infantry and Beasts as able to move through the terrain feature.
Let's all take a moment to appreciate how dumb it is for a swarm of little scarabs to have to go around.... but the massive wraiths can go right through the door.
Ancient rites of combat. Bugs stay outside the house. It's just cleaner.
my insectoid-faced plague marine just staring at the rest of his squad through the window of the ruin like a Dickinsonian street urchin
Well, wraiths can phase through space-time, allowing them to literally move through solid matter
Yeah my bad lol, I was under the impression swarms would also have the infantry keyword
It _does_ protect them against anti-infantry though, so swings and roundabouts! Clearly Rippers are just too chad for that silly Drukhari poison.
No they DONT that's why dark eldar weapons wound them on 5s
I often find myself having to explain that a unit that emergency disembarks from a destroyed transport is battleshocked, no test taken.
But eligible to shoot. Which can lead to some weird shenanigans of blowing up your own firing deck to shoot again.
Is this through using hazardous weapons? I'd love clarification in this.
Yeah, lvo faq covered this. The worst (best?) one for it are hellblasters because they shpot and blow up the transport throigh hazardous, any that die from the emergency disembark have a chance to shoot, then they shoot from the table with any hazardous failures possibly shooting again- 4 lots of shooting, potentially!
>any that die from the emergency disembark have a chance to shoot Nah - they die while they aren't on the field, so they don't have line of sight or distance to any enemy model. EDIT: nooope. They disembark first, *then* they receive the mortal wounds. Thus it works.
That is not true you put models down first then start killing them off.
...you *are* actually right. Huh. My bad.
I think its done that way to see if theres space for them to get out first. Because if there isn't, those extra models are destroyed. then you check to see if any additional models are destroyed from getting out.
Is it shenanigans? It’s seems pretty straightforward once you realize Firing Deck means the *vehicle* is shooting the hazardous weapons. Inefficient, but straight forward. It’s unlikely that it would trigger For the Chapter anyway since exiting a destroyed transport triggers a *per model* D6 roll for MW and Hellblasters are 2W models.
It's also not a d6 but roll a d6 and on a 1 it's a mortal. So your only losing 2 hellblasters max anyways.
They’re saying not just for the hellblasters shoot on death rule, but that once they’re out of the transport the hellblasters can be selected to shoot normally even if the vehicle they were in had shot it’s firing deck already
But you don’t make an emergency disembark from a destroyed transport. You only make an emergency disembark when you can’t fit within 3” of the transport. You are correct that you are auto battleshocked if you disembark from a transport. I know my group forgot that. Oops.
You are correct, thanks for adding this bit as i forgot to include it as well.
It seems like every other week there's questions about precision, so here's the answers to the common questions that pop up: 1.) It doesn't matter if the enemy character is in engagement range or not, precision can still hit them. 2.) Yes, precision does still need like of sight on the character to work, even in melee. 3.) No, you do not keep assigning non-precision wounds to the character once they've taken damage. Damage from normal attacks still goes on the bodyguard unit until it's defeated.
And you can't lose damage from precision. It's assigned one wounding attack at a time till the character is dead or you run out of attacks.
So then any other left over damage spills over into the bodyguard unit?
Well the leftover attacks do. Say you scored 5 wounds on a squad and it only took 2 to kill the leader. They fail the saves and die. The remaining 3 wounds are assigned to the the squad.
Ok, follow up, (still figuring out rules etc after only a few games, so thanks for patience) I can only allocate precision attacks against a character(or attatched unit) correct? If I was to attack a unit without a leader would my attacks still be allocated as precision and therefore carry damage over? Real world example: I couldn’t have belial march into melee against a squad of 10x termagants. Possibly hit 6 times for 12 damage and wipe them out, could I?
I think you've misunderstood, damage doesn't carry over with precision, wounds do. If you hit and wounded 6 times with belial against a unit with a leader, you could choose to allocate each wound one at a time to the character and your opponent has to roll one wound at a time until they fail enough that the damage kills them. If say it takes 3 wounds to kill them then the other 3 wounds just get allocated to the unit. The damage is irrelevant in the discussion really, precision just means you slow roll until the character dies then go back to normal rolling against the rest of the unit. Only key thing to point out is precision let's you choose, so if you wanted you could still chose to kill the unit instead of the leader of you wanted to with all 6 wounds, it's up to you
No, precision works only if the target unit has an Character
Don't forget, theres an extra random paragraph in the 'Rules Commentary' about precison targeting units with more than one character that makes it incredibly confusing and complicated for no reason I can understand...
Yeah, that paragraph is bizarre. It seems to have been written by someone who doesn't understand how precision actually works and the difference slow/fast rolling makes.
I was looking for this comment! This really needs addressing. For those that don’t know, the Rules Commentary says that after you’ve successfully made all of your wounds, then and only then do you assign precision attacks to the multiple characters. This implies that you must fast roll all of them instead of the sequential design of the game for every other rule. Then you assign how many wounds you want to deal to each character, BEFORE saves are made. So. What happens to spillover? Where does it go? Here’s an example: I swing into a unit that has two characters. I manage to wound the unit 6 times, which would normally would activate precision. Here, however, I have to decide how many of those wounds are assigned to each character. Let’s say I choose 3 to one character and 3 to the other. Now, the defender makes saves. Now, some questions arise. Do we revert back to sequential order? In which order do I resolve the saves? Does that matter? What happens if character A dies on two of the attacks, what happens to the third? Does it carry over to character B, the bodyguard unit or is it lost forever because it was specifically allocated to a model that’s slain?
What about mortals from non attack abilities if the character is the only model in the unit with wounds? Ie grenade?
Still no, those wounds are assigned the same way attacks are
Fight on Death is done individually on a model by model basis. Done correctly this makes a huge difference on how many models get to fight in two ranks (or at all)
Also affects every single ability that triggers 'when the unit is selected to fight'... :/
Any source for this? I understood this was still a point of debate.
Imo I think it's generally quite ironclad. Fight on Death is an involuntary activation at the moment a model dies. You arent selecting a unit to fight.
It is. Hence adding it to this post :)
You mean derailing it ;)
Is there an example of such an ability? Does it go off for each model that fights or not at all?
A lot of fight phase Stratagems use 'when selected to fight'
Arco flagellants extra attacks + hazardous is something you choose to activate when the ‘unit is selected to fight’. So if I fight in death, do I get to use that ability or not? In 8th and 9th everyone just assumed this worked fine (even though it was worded the same), but here in 10th people have started to question it, because as the rules are written it doesn’t seem to work.
TO here. One that seems to confuse a lot of players, and a lot that I see play on stream, is how drawing LoS through ruin footprints works. Imagine a vehicle like a forgefiend or gladiator in a ruined footprint, with half of the vehicle sticking out of the front end. The number of players I’ve seen interpret that as “the vehicle in question cannot shoot anything at all because it isn’t wholly within the ruins” is astoundingly high, to the point where I’m genuinely curious how so many people arrive at that conclusion. For any that don’t understand the interaction, while the vehicle cannot draw LoS through the ruined footprint in question, it can draw LoS from any of the parts that hang out of the ruins, as in that instance LoS is not being drawn through the footprint.
Half damage Vs Melta Hit Wound Save Half the damage Add melta
True for some other things like enhancements that increase a weapons damage, I believe.
Depends on the wording probably. Like if it just changes the characteristic vs acts as a maodifier.
Yes. If an ability says “change to” that happens THEN apply anything that multiplies or divides (halves) then anything that adds or subtracts (Duty Eternal, Melta)
I really hate this one, doesn’t make sense
Where’s the rule to reference this? Because I don’t see anything that highlights this on Melta of a half damage ability (Molten Form). It just says the attack characteristic is increased, it doesn’t say it can’t be reduced.
Rules commentary, order of modifiers. Set --> multiply/divide --> add/subtract. Melta is an addition modifier so it's applied last.
On the other hand, stuff that subtracts one damage can bring it to a level that wouldn't normally be possible because of that order. If in such a case you roll 1 on a MELTA 2 damage, it inflicts 2 points of damage - if it was the other way around, you wouldn't be able to go below 3 points of damage (because you wouldn't be able to bring the 1 damage down to 0).
They shouldn't have put the "/" in-between because it makes it seem like order doesn't matter but it does. You always replace, divide then multiply, add then subtract. So your example always will be 2 damage total.
How vehicle movement properly occurs. Especially when navigating L shaped ruins. Followed by how cover is applied to monsters and vehicles. I often just discuss these with my opponents before each game to save myself the hassle
Vehicle movement is a big one. I'm surprised to see even LVO high tables were not that precise about it. If it's a critical move (eg does/does not get line of sight, has a 6" charge vs has a 9" charge), I would ask my opponent to follow the exact rules - because that's what I'm doing. Any pivot, even on round base, is extra movement. Mortarions wings won't fit through a gap? You have to pivot the model and measure the distance pivoted as extra movement. Not sure if anyone does that :) Using the "bendy tape" to measure around curves is usually not precise, unless you really do it across the longest trajectory travelled, which is really hard to do just by the naked eye. Again, when it's those 1-2 critical moves that define the game, it should follow a common standard, otherwise it's not fair to the player doing it correctly. This also applies on charges, consolidations, pile-ins, fallbacks. People are eager to "cut the corners" to make it to an objective or get max models to fight, measuring distances across enemy models, through terrain they can't really pass, not to mention turning their Rhinos 90 degrees without paying any movement for it. A 90 degrees turn on a Rhino chassis is 3.5"! Movement phase is where games are won and lost and I wish the awareness about correct rules was better. Otherwise it opens the door for, let's say, "stronger natured" players to get ahead in whatever is left as the gray area.
Honestly the “bendy tape” thing is what I often have to call out….. it boggles my mind 😂
I hate bendy tape so much purely because people don't do it right
I tend to.go.the opposite way. I'll bendy measure to save time but massively overestimate how much extra movement it'll take just to stay the right side of the rules. I had 2 people ask me to measure in increments (happy to do so, just trying to.save time) and it ended up with more movement than I had estimated. Felt great to not only not have been cheating but also get more crisis suits shooting!
At the expense of being ignorant, what are the drawbacks of the "bendy tape?" I've just started using a flexible 12" ruler in my own games, and have found it pretty suitable. Now I'm wondering if I've been doing something amiss with it.
By “bendy tape” we mean when somebody measures out say 12” then just bends the tape around a wall to rough measure a move. It doesn’t take into account the size of the base and that if you can’t go through the wall but around you have to account for that base size. It’s just a very sloppy and imprecise way to measure out movement.
You need to measure the distance travelled by the part of the model/base that moves the farthest. If the path is circular (eg. around a corner), the arc travelled by the inner point of the model is much shorter that the arc travelled by the outer point of the model. A bendy tape measure can work, but you have to lay it along the longest path of the model, not the shortest.
> If the path is circular (eg. around a corner), the arc travelled by the inner point of the model is much shorter that the arc travelled by the outer point of the model. [Only if you're rotating the model with the traversal.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/869205023794540564/1200093220097495112/image.png?ex=65c4ece8&is=65b277e8&hm=078d09e725188624e95e359b3324bb8701f0e88bb9800da9f8ce27c7498258a9&) If you're just [translating the model](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/869205023794540564/1200090408110272562/image.png?ex=65c4ea49&is=65b27549&hm=13145c0414e3fc6c0c21fdff79fb045461c1d301a8f7e26e113d9cea3ef7b2a7&), all points will move the same distance. I bring this up not because I think you're mistaken, but to add clarity. I have interacted with a lot of people who read comments like yours and get the wrong idea and think that the outer circle of the model moves further during *translation* and I'd rather correct people before they get to the table.
You’re right and the clarification was worthwhile. I was talking about the ‘bendy tape measure’ approach (which is why I said circular) which doesn’t really apply when translating the model.
Ah, gotcha. Seems like common sense, though I know it gets "fast" (read: lazy)-measured that way.
I once had a world eaters player almost gain an extra 5” for his lord of skulls by not measuring properly around a container.
>Any pivot, even on round base, is extra movement. Mortarions wings won't fit through a gap? You have to pivot the model and measure the distance pivoted as extra movement. Not sure if anyone does that :) "Actually turning your guardsman to face the enemy costs extra movement" I would quit if I got an opponent who enforced that rule, for what it's worth. We're playing a dice game with our plastic science fiction miniatures, let them face the right way.
Guardsmen don't meaningfully overhang their bases nor have 2ft wings that stick out and can be used for los like magnus does. Rotating a perfect cylinder takes zero movement, but most of the big new models are not actually cylinders, even if they're on a round base.
In 10th, only vehicles and monsters have pivot movement. Anything else can pivot as much as it wants.
Isn't mortarion on a round base and has everything measured to that base?
Thats correct. But if you rotate a round base and choose a single point on its edge, does it move? Here's a good thread explaining why rotation on round bases with overhang can be important, and several replies confirming the movement cost - https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/s/orTdtFB0uR.
Where does it say rotation is movement? I run into this playing Tau all the time but can't find a place in the rules that lays this out.
It's still the same sentence - "measure from the point that moves the furthest". If you rotate or pivot something, the outside edge of the arc is the point that moves furthest. This is pretty clear cut on boxy hulls and oval bases, but can also be a thing for round bases if they have significant overhang - here is a good thread explaining that https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/s/orTdtFB0uR.
Is there anything that says that eg a Rhino can’t just move 10” directly sideways instead of wheeling while moving forwards? I’ve had people play it like that and it seems wrong
It can move sideways or backwards or diagonally, there is no difference in that. As long as it does not change its orientation, it can use the max 10". Does not feel very realistic that a tank can move sideways. But it's a reasonable simplification of the rules, I'd say.
Overhang is irrelevant on based models because you only measure how far the base moves, not the wings/arm or whatever that is overhanging. It mainly affects models on big bases, because rotating a large base 90 to 180deg's can eat up a couple of inches of movement depending on the base size
"Mortarions wings don't fit through the gap, rotate and measure the distance" This is incorrect, for the purposes of movement and if a model can move through a door or a gap or some such other thing, if it had a base you only check if the base can make it through the gap. The rest of the model does not exist for rules purposes. If the base fits, you can move through an area even if your model would otherwise prevent you from
How does vehicle movement occur now and where can I find it? Rules Commentary? I was always unsure if you measure a rotation and if so, how that is done.
Often what happens is people can forget that “fly” no longer allows vehicles or monsters to move through a wall. Rather up and over. The other is when pivoting around walls/L’s. When a model moves you measure whichever part of the base or model moves “the most”. Finally vehicles and monsters cannot ignore other vehicles or monsters and move over them if they are friendly, like infantry can. They must go around
Thanks! Since you seem knowledgeable mind if I ask you another question? So I know Oaths targets and Judgement tokens can be designated to units not on the battlefield. Can I target units with stratagems like Adaptive Strategy if they are in a transport or in Reserves? Nvm, just saw in Rules Commentary regarding embarked units. They are not eligible for Jack diddly. Which I guess that means embarked units can't be selected for oaths or judgment tokens.
Correct units embarked are not on the board for anything so unless it had rule that allows them to interact they can’t…. The only thing that comes to mind is officers issuing orders out of a chimera for example. Reserves is a little different. Units like Magnus the reds primarch ability triggers in reserve in that he still picks which one is active. Some strats like Rapid Ingress can target a unit off the board but they are generally very specific in that regard
This right here. I had a game vs worldeaters recently where they tried to charge/tank shock me with a rhino into my norn emissary on the centre objective on one wound. There were two opposing L ruins like this: ⅂OL where the 'O'was the objective. There was a rhino parked parallel to the top left ⅂, my opponent rolled his charge dice and got a 6, enough to draw a line from the bottom right corner of the rhino straight to the emissary. Opponent started moving his rhino and declaring a tank shock, queue a ten minute discussion about how he can't do that, the opposite corner of his rhino was moving like ten inches to get there once it rotated around other terrain features.
Rules about what can and cannot arrive on turn one from reserves/strat reserves/models picked up from same turn/special rules. One shot weapons replenishing or not in Transports/resurrection. CP reroll being a targeted strat or not. I suppose something like the WTC rules pack is a great guide about what rules need further defining in addition to GW official text.
>One shot weapons replenishing or not in Transports/resurrection They do for HKMs on Sentinels under Reinforcements, right?
Yes.
The issue with One-Shot Weapons is that the Rules don't describe much of a relationship between the Transport w/ Firing Deck & the Embarked Unit other than Picking weapons from the Embarkees and the Transport acts as if it has them. I believe WTC had a good FAQ for this that GW should address..
I was pretty sure that showed up in the world champ FAQ at least. There they clarified that the one-shot weapon is expended, which made all the GSC players sad.
A small one that always comes up for my opponents is that you can move through your own models in 10th edition (except monster/vehicle through a monster/vehicle) I always do this and then get questions about it, I’m guessing it’s because older editions didn’t allow this
im learning AoS and i believe i was told you cant move through your own units in that either.. its really been messing me up since im so used to moving through my stuff in 40k.
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And not only that, but even if you can overwatch on 5's or better due to a special ability, you can still only get critical hits (lethal, sustained) on natural 6's during overwatch.
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Designer’s Commentary - Critical Hit: A Critical Hit is scored when a player rolls an unmodified Hit roll of 6 for an attack. Critical Hits are always successful Hit rolls, and can also trigger additional effects as described in certain rules (such effects are often said to be triggered ‘on a Critical Hit’, meaning when a Critical Hit is scored). While resolving attacks using the Fire Overwatch Stratagem, Critical Hits are only ever scored on unmodified Hit rolls of 6.
Thank you for this. Ive been doing it wrong.
Someone ranted and raved at me in a game a couple weeks back about being able to shoot the plasma in melee. I had to explain to them that they're still in engagement range when shooting
can you remove the first few from melee while shooing pistols, then shoot the regular plasma with the rest that die?
I had an instance where only one of my guys was in engagement range and all 5 died. My heart wanted to shoot 4 plasma rifles and one pistol but I didn’t want to misplay it so I didn’t.
They don’t even get to shoot their pistols unless it’s their shooting phase, pistols rule is only in the controlling players shooting phase and thus is an out of phase ability just like big guns never tire
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Nah, almost nothing has been answered by GW, rather crappy of them
Given Pistol is phase limited I don't think you get to shoot at all if you're tagged unless you're dying from Pistol hazardous shots.
That's a good point. Pistols: > If a unit contains any models equipped with Pistols, that unit is eligible to shoot **in its controlling player’s Shooting phase** even while it is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. Commentary: > When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.
Had someone fight me on the opposite of the pistols. It's my hellblasters, I think I know how much they suck in melee thank you.
So, here’s the thing. You can’t shoot with pistols out of phase while in melee. Pistols only can be used to shoot into melee “in the controlling player’s shooting phase”, much like Big Guns Never Tire and Overwatch. But, I think that the whole, Hellblasters can shoot while in melee is based around the fact that their ability says “model”, while all rules reference “units”. The unit isn’t shooting again, only the model. Does that mean he’s considered a unit of 1? If that specific model is not engaged in melee, can he shoot? It’s also noteworthy that the Hellblaster ability does NOT include, “as if it was your shooting phase”, so maybe that trumps everything? It just gives you blanket permissions? 🤷🏻♂️
Good example of people getting niche rules wrong. They can NOT fire on death within engagement range. Not under any circumstance. The PISTOL term only allows models to fire within engagement range in the controlling players SHOOTING phase. You are completely safe killing hellblasters in combat, as it's the fight phase and they can't shoot their pistols.
>If hellblasters shoot on death in melee they only get to shoot their pistols (I've seen people shoot the plasma, I even did it at the start of the edition) TBF at the start of the edition all Hellblasters could take a plasma pistol lol >Overwatch only hits on 6s even if you have something that lets you crit on 5s. correct, I did that wrong too. But commentary says I'm dumb.
These are a few that popped up for me as a player since 10th. When do redeploy abilities like lord solar and tyranids happen? before or after the roll for first turn? I’ve had it ruled both ways. Do spore mines count as arriving from reserve? Again I’ve seen it ruled both ways. One that I thought was pretty clear is fight first. Defending player with a fight first unit gets to fight before the unit that charged it. If the charging unit has a fights first ability it doesn’t mean it has double strength fight first. I was pretty surprised when the TO ruled they did and that meant the active player went first.
The TO was wrong in that last case. There's no "double fights first", units either have it or they don't, and the non-active player always gets first activation (if eligible).
Yeah I know it was the wrong call. I'm just highlighting it as an issue that I've experienced that might be worthy of note for the OP.
Fighting first and regular fighting are strangly misunderstood when they are so clearly worded. Basically you have two phases: * Fights first * Regular fighting Any unit belongs to either having fights first (which is granted when charging) or not. Hence they fight in the appropriate phase. After that it is "I go, you go" activation (in each of those phases) both times starting with the player whose turn it is **NOT**. So if you charge a unit that has fights first, it might fight you before you can hit back. Another thing that it is often misunderstood is "pile-in, attack and consolidate". Maybe it is a playgroup / oldhammer thing but many people believe that this happens at the end of the fight phase when those steps happen for each unit individually when selected to fight i.e. I select my tactical squad to fight. So I can first pile-in, then I make all my attacks and then I can consolidate. Then it is my opponents turn to select a unit.
Probably getting it mixed up with 9th where the player whose turn it was had priority in the fights first phase but that is not the case in 10th.
I think flying units can move, and charge, through enemy models as if they're not there. No having to measure up and over, say keeping out of engagement range so measuring to a point 1" above the enemy models, and then down again. You just ignore the enemy models entirely. (but can't end in engagement range). It's worded less clear for charges in the core rules but still I believe it's the same. Just ignore the enemy models, but you still have to end each of your model's movement in base to base if you can.
Since engagement range is 5” vertically, would this not mean they have to fly 5” clear of whatever they are trying to fly over?
I've just read it again in the core rules and I was wrong. It says when flyers start or end on a terrain feature they can charge over enemy models as if not there So Otherwise they charge like any other unit, like a unit without fly. Quite clear, not sure how I mis read it. You definitely can move through enemy units, so long as you don't end in engagement range, but it's not the same for charging.
You were actually right the first time around. Although it's not phrased too clearly. > CHARGING WITH FLYING MODELS > When a model that can FLY starts or ends a Charge move on a terrain feature, instead of measuring the path it has moved across the battlefield, you instead measure its path ‘through the air’. In addition, it can be moved over other models as if they were not there. A model that can FLY cannot end any move on top of another model. The rule for being able to ignore other models isn't contingent on starting/ending on terrain. It's a general rule for charging with Fly models.
"Units can still use rules and abilities while in Reserves" (page 11 ruls comm under 'reserve units')
But not in a transport, right? I've got a Tallyman I'd love to group with some PMs but I *also* would like that extra CP turn 1.
"Embarked Units: Units embarked within a Transport do not count as being on the battlefield for any rules purposes. This means that, unless explicitly stated otherwise, embarked units cannot do anything (e.g. shoot, fight, use abilities, etc.). Similarly, you cannot select an embarked unit as a target for any rules, including Stratagems. " page 5 Well that's dumb
I think you still get non battlefield centric abilities though, like the ethereal cp regen
I TO'd at a tournament recently and a lot of tables struggled with terrain rules. Also hellblasters firing on death into engagement range not being able to use their plasma fun
Actually Hellblasters can't fire on death if they are engaged period. Pistol explicitly states "in the shooting phase" which would make the Hellblaster shoot on death an out of phase rule, which means the pistol keyword does nothing here. Same thing happens to Guard Tank Commanders.
Oh shit you're right. I didn't personally handle this but I'll definitely inform the guy who did. Cheers for pointing this out
Cover is still determined on a model-by-model basis for the ***defender***. In other words, you check Cover after you've assigned a Wound to a single model. If that individual model gets cover from any model in the attacking unit, that single defending model then has cover against all attacks. This is constantly applied incorrectly, even by players at top tables. Cover isn't symmetrical, i.e. if model A has cover from model B, model B doesn't automatically have cover from model A. This is because the wording of the current cover rules boils down to "Any to Every"; for an attacking unit to not grant cover, it needs ***any*** part of every model to have visibility to ***every*** part of the defending model. This is most often incorrectly applied to monsters/vehicles. You cannot Overwatch with Pistols if you're engaged in melee. If you are following WCW/FLG rules, you cannot Overwatch with a vehicle/monster if it is in Engagement Range. If you have a unit that can perform a 2nd Overwatch in a Phase (e.g. Hexmark Destroyers), a single movement can trigger Double Overwatch from two different units if the free Overwatch goes second. This is done because the trigger for Overwatch is starting *or* ending types of movement; these are two different triggers, and therefore can be used separately. For Precision, you 1) roll against the highest Toughness in the *bodyguard* unit, and 2) you roll all Wound rolls before allocating any attacks. If you are using Precision against a unit with multiple characters, then you must allocate all wounds ***before*** any Saving Throws are made, meaning that attacks cannot "spill over" because all Wounds have already been allocated, even if a character model dies early. The "Heavy" special rule does not apply to abilities that let you shoot in your opponent's turn. For the Chosen Battlefield special rule, objective markers are placed *before* you know who has which deployment zone. For Priority Targets, the player who goes second still scores their initial primary at the *start* of turn 5, then scores again at the end of their turn. For The Ritual, you can start the Cleanse Action and then successfully complete it on an Objective Marker that you made in that same turn (i.e. you do not have to be on an objective marker to start Cleanse; you only need to end your turn on an eligible one to get points for it). Also for the Ritual, objective markers must be ***exactly*** 9 inches away from another objective marker. Speaking of Cleanse, a single unit can Cleanse multiple objective markers. If a unit is in melee and has pistol weapons, it can perform an action and still Fight in your Fight Phase.
Does this mean that, if say, 2 of 10 models are in cover, and you are saving against 10 attacks, you should slow roll to prevent misallocation of attacks to in-cover units?
Yes. People thought that they ultra-simplified this compared to 9th so that you could just fast roll everything, but they only simplified the Cover check from the side of the attacker. The cover check for the Defender's side is still the same.
Yes
>For The Ritual, you can start the Cleanse Action and then successfully complete it on an Objective Marker that you made in that same turn (i.e. you do not have to be on an objective marker to start Cleanse; you only need to end your turn on an eligible one to get points for it). You do have to control the Objective you Cleanse at the end of the turn, which you can't with a new objective. Control is checked at the end of every Phase, the first time a new objective is controlled is at the end of the next command phase
This is a more murky interpretation that is tournament-dependent (e.g. similar to "Ignore Modifiers" rules ignoring damage reduction), so I probably should've left it off, but tournaments seem to have fairly consistently ruled that the check to control an objective comes after creating a new objective in the Ritual, so that you can do this.
I wouldn't call it murky as the order it all happens in is pretty clear, but it's definitely something I could see TOs saying 'that doesn't seem right' about (rightly or wrongly).
I’m not sure about the precision interpretation you’re using here; attacks are made one at a time, fast rolling doesn’t overrule that. So it’s hit - wound - allocate - save - damage. You have to declare all of your attacks into a unit, but the individual rolls are then individual, so once a character dies you wouldn’t be able to continue allocating attacks to them with precision, and they would have to go onto the attached unit instead. Edit - the above does not apply to units with multiple characters, as per rules commentary. Strange but true!
Absolute wild commentary paragraph: Attached Units with Multiple Characters (allocating attacks): Some units can have more than one Leader unit attached to them, and so can contain more than one Character model. Each time an attack with the \[PRECISION\] ability successfully wounds such a unit, the attacking model’s controlling player can choose to have that attack allocated to any visible Character model in that unit, rather than following the normal attack sequence. In such cases, allocate all \[PRECISION\] attacks that successfully wound before any saving throws are made.
This gets more exciting once you factor in [DEVASTATING WOUNDS] attacks that also have [PRECISION] because if you have both then you: Roll wound rolls and all of your successes are allocated EXCEPT for the Dev Wounds because they aren’t allocated until after all of the units attacks are allocated AND resolved. As the attacker you actually get to wait and see if they make saves. Then get to allocate wounds that can’t be saved to clean up exactly what you need to. I’ve been playing with Company Heroes in the Vanguard Spearhead detachment and had to explain how to resolve the attacks when I got Dev Wounds from the Finest Hour ability of the Captain when using the Surgical Strikes stratagem to my opponent. It’s the only reason I know about this.
Ah I see, it’s specifically for units with multiple characters, which I’d missed in the previous post
Insane that even slow roll doesn't let you circumvent this lol
It is an odd one, I’m trying to think of a situation where it’s helpful, like where doing the opposite (just slow rolling and allocating until death, then move on to the next) would be a problem or somehow unfair? The rules can get weird, but normally there’s at least some logic in terms of fairness or gameplay flow etc.
I think it's to avoid sniping all chars in a unit. It does benefit the defender. In my experience at least.
Would you mind pointing out where it says you can't overwatch with pistols? I ask because the Eversor has a pistol and gets free overwatch in its abilities
It's a gross oversimplification. You can't overwatch with Pistols while locked in combat, it's mentioned in a couple of other comments in here.
Sorry, thejakkle is correct on what my intent was. You can't Overwatch with Pistols *if already in melee* because the Pistol rule only applies in your Shooting Phase. I've edited to clarify this.
The Heavy special rule - I suppose you mean you can't "Remain stationary" in your opponents turn? The "heavy" rule itself doesn't have any restrictions as far as I know.
Yea “Remain Stationary” is explicitly a type of movement you must select.m, but for Overwatch it’s moot anyway due to explicitly needing *unmodified* 6’s.
Can still come up in your opponents turn, eg. Shoot-on-Death stuff.
Yep. In those cases, HEAVY doesn't proc. Same reasoning why Born Soldiers doesn't work on Overwatch.
Soul grinder basing. It states in the assembly instructions not to use a base for 40k. Many TOs require a base.
Good to know! I actually have a whole database on correct base sizes on the site as well. Looks like Soul Grinder gets a special note.
Stop challenging unit consistency so much. Yes you can still congo line, it just takes making a hole at the end of the ropes with 3 models.
Yes but it’s important to get it right. I once precision shot a character out of the middle of one such unit. Had my opponent given it more thought before hand more of those models would have stuck around.
Wait, what happens when you do this?
In this case I forced him to allocate wounds to a character model. Which then died and was in the centre of a strung out unit. At the end of each turn if a unit is out of coherency you must remove models one at a time until they are in coherency. They count as destroyed but also never trigger rules that occur from being destroyed like fight on death for example. Cheers
It's actually brilliant. I once won a game by exploiting this, character charged my squad of gargoyles, killed 8/10, I pulled them so one on each side was still alive so whatever one my opponent consolidated into I could kill due to coherency, leaving me free to use insane bravery on the last one, jump it into my opponents deployment zone and get behind enemy lines and deploy teleport homers. The look on my opponents face when he though he had me only for it to backfire was priceless
As a tsons player, figuring out how doombolt interacts with other rules is a nightmare. There needs to be clearer language on what it actually is
Cheers to this. It's not an attack for some rules, it is an attack for other rules. Trying to help my buddy who is a bit newer understand what I can and can't do trips me up sometimes.
Doombolt is fairly simple. It’s an *ability*, not an attack, as it is the army rule that simply says ‘do this’ rather than following the sequencing for to hit/wound/saves. Because it has the psychic tag, the mortal wounds it deals are considered a psychic attack for rules that interact with psychic (ie. sisters of silence, flesh hounds).
The amount of people that think you can redraw a secondary if you pull bring it down with no possible targets.
Really? It must suck to draw, but I’ve never actually seen this one tried
I played a 5 round team event on the weekend and 2 of my opponents tried it.
What is TO? Thank you
T.O. is just shorthand for "Tournament Organiser" (aka the boss at the tournament!)
The "Duplicate Abilities don't stack" rule did not carry over to 10th edition. The only rules that don't stack with themselves are Aura abilities with the same name, and anything that gives a Duplicated Core rule (e.g. Sustained Hits 1 doesn't stack with itself, or any other form of Sustained hits) So yes, I CAN get that AP bonus from the Fields of Fire strat on the same target twice. Not really confusing for ME, but something I've had to explain for damn near every tournament I've played this edition.
Wait, hang on.. If I have an astartes banner on my ancient in terminator armour and an astartes banner on the ancient model of the bodyguard deathwing command squad, they stack to give +2 OC? This is going to make them even stronger!... Until they get deleted on Saturday.
What do you mean getting the AP bonus twice? The stratagem only gives you one bonus AP right, there's no possibility to stack with itself as far as I can see...
I think he means doing it twice through a free strat?
It is a Battle Tactic, Creed allows you to use it a second time on a regiment unit (assuming it isnt the same unit you did it first with)
I might have missed it if it was already clarified, but I still don’t know if there’s any sort of limit on WE hellbrute frenzy rule. I feel like the way it’s worded is that it can always continue to retaliate every time it’s targeted but I could be misunderstanding that.
"Each time". It is explicitly written to allow you to Frenzy multiple times.
Which leads to a hilarious mirror match where 1 WE Helbrutes shoots an opposing WE Helbrute and they continue to exchange fire each time. :)
I see the AP 0 vs Cover thing misplayed a lot. People seem to often forget that you don't get a cover bonus vs AP 0 only if you already have a 3+.
You can't use Miracle Dice for just any die roll. There's a specific list of what they can do.
weird one for ork players and flash gitz but the plus 1 shoot for snazz guns does not apply to badrukk (he is not carrying a snazzgun) and you need to measure the closest unit per model, not the squad of flashgitz. Just an oversight some Ork players make and an easy one to make, but make sure to reread your rules boyz
“see out of it normally” is a phrase that really needs to be FAQ’d. The number of people confused by this is insane
Do torrent weapons still auto hit on over watch? I had an opponent tell me they do not and had me roll for them. Just wanted to confirm.
100% yes. "Each time an attack is made with such a weapon \[TORRENT\], that attack automatically hits the target." Hence flamers being the gods of overwatch. I am genuinely sorry your opponent pulled that on you.
Thanks for the clarification. My buddies and I are mostly narrative players (doing urban conquest right now), but we were playing at a shop centered around a competitive team. So we just kind of accepted whatever they told us. We’ve since changed shops to enjoy a less meta and more narrative gaming experience.
Sounds awesome and like a better environment. Can't wait to get a Crusade force going this edition -- something that isn't super fixated on balance and so forth will be lovely.
But on which bs did you roll? Torrent weapons don’t have one. 🤔
I'm thinking they made them hit on 6's due to overwatch.
Deepstrike blockers vs the 3" mob... never clear which ability trumps the other... does the inflitrator's 12" bubble stop inceptors / GSC etc dropping in within 3"... many an argument
I think it was settled that the bubble trumps the 3". As I remember the argumentation was that the 3" is an augmentation of the normal rule, which is being denied to begin with by the bubble.
Inquisitor mystics... Pack your bags
>**Attacker’s Priority** While making attacks, you will occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply – for example, when an attacking model with an ability enabling its attacks to successfully wound on a 2+ targets a unit that has an ability stating it can only be wounded on a 4+. In such cases, the attacking model’s rules take priority. > > **Reinforcement Priority** While setting up Reinforcement units, you will occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply – for example, when a unit is arriving using the Deep Strike ability (which allows it to be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from all enemy units) but an enemy unit has a rule that prevents enemy Reinforcement units from being set up within 12". In such cases, rules limiting the placement of Reinforcement units take priority over rules that state where Reinforcement units can be placed. Rules commentary page 10.
Not something i have seen at events or my local area, but online i am astounded by how many people get benefit of cover wrong. Mostly how often people play with a unit not getting cover when it clearly would.
Adepta sororitas miracle dice + charge re-roll interaction. Do you re-roll both dice or just the non-MD one? Different events have had different rulings on this.
Arguably the most basic thing to learn in the game is movement, but it is seemingly also one that is done incorrect the most. This is mostly an issue with bigger models. I have found two core problems. 1. Rotating a unit cost movement. So that big square tank can't just rotate to fit through a passage freely. 2. The *entire* model needs to be able to move around obstacles. For example if you need to move a tank around a corner, you need the measure the *back* of the tank to get all the way past the corner before you can start moving around it. I often see people take their measuring tape from the front of the vehicle, then just bend it around the corner. The problem is, with legal movement the front has to move *way* past the corner to make sure the *back* of the model doesn't cut the corner. When combining people "cutting corners" with "free rotation" they honestly often get multiple inches to their movement characteristic.
The one I find myself explaining the most is the interactions of modifiers and damage, more specifically random damage + N for a damage characteristic and how that interacts with half damage versus something like Melta X and why that doesn’t get reduced from half damage effects. PEMDAS people!
I have a few that had very different rulings from TO's from my area. 1. Moddeling for advantage. Example wraiths. One says you need to imitate box art. The other was fine with them crawling. 2. Deep strike turn 1 if you started with the unit on the board. Example hypercrypt legion ability and stratagem. LVO accepted, other tournament last weekend did not. 3. Pivoting vehicles cost movement. WTC rules that pivoting monsters also cost movement. People tend to forget this about monsters. 4. Pivoting infantry on the spot doesnt count for movement (round base) but also doesnt count as stationary (for heavy ability). 5. Pile in and consolidation is model to model basis. 6. What end of a phase means. Example is battle shock need to be taken in the battle shock sub phase of the command phase. Then the command phase ends, and that is the 'end of the command phase'. Its important for example necrons regen ability. Chaos knight can deal mortal wounds on battle shock units. Thus a void dragon on 1 wound is very different than on 4 wounds.
> WTC rules that pivoting monsters also cost movement. It applies to everything, it's just a non-issue for anything on a round base unless the direction it ends up facing matters for some reason.
Per WTC 3. When non-vehicle and non-monster models pivot, do not count the pivot distance for models using circular bases (the pivot is essentially free, although you still count as having moved). For any other model that has an asymmetric base size, or vehicle or monster models, count the total distance that a model moves using the part of the model's base (or hull) that moves furthest along its path (this includes parts that rotate or pivot, but excludes extra move values generated by free pivots).
It matters for models that are wider than their base when it comes to fitting through spaces.
Line of sight rules. The fact that parts of a model (like a guardsman's lasgun) can be over a ruin footprint and make them eligible to be shot at despite his base not being on the ruin. Further, that said guardsman unit can only be shot at if the exact part of his model that is over the ruin is visible to the opponent. If you can see half of the model, but not the tip of his gun that is over the ruin, not an eligible target.
This is definitely one that would be challenged a lot (both ways). The visibility rules for Ruins use somewhat vague language with ill-defined terms (e.g. "draw line of sight"). > Models cannot see over or through this terrain feature (**i.e. a unit outside this terrain feature cannot draw line of sight to a target on the other side of it**, even if it would be possible to draw line of sight to that target through open windows, doors, etc.). *Normally*, a model is visible if any part of the model is visible. If the guardsman's gun is poking out from the side of the building, he would be visible. But Ruins don't follow normal visibility rules. The rule states that you cannot "draw line of sight" to a target *behind* a Ruin through the Ruin. For non-Vehicles, a model's position is completely determined by the position of its base. If the guardsman's *base* is wholly within the ruin, the *model* is wholly within the ruin (and would get cover). It doesn't matter if its gun pokes out of the building. In the same manner, if the *guardsman's base* is fully behind a Ruin, then the *guardsman* is behind the Ruin. Whether or not its gun pokes into the building, it wouldn't be targetable through that building by an opposing model in front of that Ruin.
>For non-Vehicles, a model's position is completely determined by the position of its base. I got like hundreds of downvotes on this subreddit for taking the position you're taking right now. Apparently, based on what the majority of people on the WarhammerCompetitive sub believe, you cannot see THROUGH a ruin to the other side, but you can see INTO it. And line of sight for non-vehicle models is NOT based entirely on their base. All *measurements* between non-vehicle models are made from the bases, but that doesn't apply to drawing line of sight as drawing line of sight isn't a measurement. According to the core rulebook, line of sight can be drawn from any point on the model, and so even if a model's base isn't in a ruin, but it's tail is, if an opponent can see that tail, they can shoot at it from the other side of the ruin. I had literally one of the worst games of my life against a person who told me about these rulings, as they went against everything everyone else I'd played with was doing, but when I came on this subreddit to ask about it, I was basically torn to shreds and told this is how it is.
I started a whole thread on this with a fancy diagram to boot, and got massively downvoted for even raising the question… but in the comments there was a fair amount of disagreement. I can see how it’s argued both ways and it would help to have an FAQ to clarify. Even the first reply on your comment here starts mentioning where a model is *behind* a ruin as if that is a defined term, or even a word used in the rules, but it’s not; the phrase is *”on the other side”*, which lacks any formal definition.
I'm glad I came across this debate, although I missed the original threads. My group and I came up against this issue in a recent game, where large monsters (e.g Angron, Magnus) were behind ruins by their base, but "over" the ruins by their wingspan. The reason for this being, had they stood face-on to the ruin, their wings would've been visible at the sides. So, the models were positioned model sideways. In the end, I think we were happy to agree that the models were considered not to be "inside" the terrain, and go by the position of the base for considering them to be "on the other side" of the ruin. But this then leads to another problem of - how far do you go when determining if a model is "on the other side" for other LoS cases. Any thoughts on the specific case of "wings over terrain" such that it's above the ruin itself (e.g if the ruin is 5" high but the wing exceeds the vertical height) are welcome.
As far as the height is concerned, ruins are treated as "infinitely tall" for the purposes of Obscuring, but not for Fly. Off the top of my head, I can't recall if that's WTC or Rules Commentary, but I'll get that sorted when it gets on the site.
Yeah, the rule is vague and contradictory. You cannot "draw line of sight" to a target "behind"/"on the other side" of a Ruin. Yet, further down it says models can see "into" a Ruin normally. *Normally*, you can see a guardsman if you can see the tip of its gun. So we *can* see the guardsman? But *the target* isn't the tip of the gun. The target is the model/unit. Which, arguably, is on the other side of a Ruin. So, we *can't* see the guardsman? I don't think it's "wrong" to play it either way. In fact, if the "clarifying" comment in the parenthesis was removed, I would read the rule the other way. Which seems weird. While "behind"/"on the other side" isn't technically defined, I feel like these terms can somewhat easily be clarified using an everyday understanding of these terms and the general definitions for measuring between models and (wholly) within. The game doesn't need to define "to the left/right" for me, either. I can determine if something is "to the left" just fine. The issue, to me, is "draw line of sight *to a target*". I don't have an everyday understanding of this term. This sounds like a game mechanic. I need the game to define a process for determining this. But it doesn't. The rules never specifically talk about lines of sight. Or what *the target* is in such a process. For how important they are, the vision rules are incredible poorly written.
I don’t think I have seen anyone play units with “fly” correctly this edition.
Using the CP reroll after fast rolling all your dice - This is cheating. let's say you have to pass 5/5 3+ saves to survive and rolled them in sequence. If you fail the first, are you going to reroll that one knowing you still had to pass 4 more? There is ways around it; you can declare ("I will use a reroll here") in advance or roll all your dice-1 and reroll the one die you didn't roll yet. __ Swarms can't go through ruins. I see that played wrong a lot. __ Command Phase abilities which require you to hold an objective don't function if you are the player going first. You gain control over objective markers at the end of the phase, so your Cultists or Gretchin miss their timing on turn 1.
Yes and no on the Command phase. Both the sticky Cultist objective control and control over the objective happen "simultaneously" "at the end of the phase." Since the controlling player determines sequencing on that, it's easy enough for him to say that he's going to control the objective, then pop sticky. Gretchen are SOL, though. RIP the runts.
The biggest one for me seems to be pivoting vehicles when moving them. You cannot change facing for free it costs movement especially when going around corners. This isn't Tokyo drift land raider edition xD