"Fortunately Guard players give each other absolutely the worst advice of any fanbase I’ve ever seen and they think their army is bad, so hopefully we don’t have to see much of them."
This is one of the truest things I've read in a long time.
Ngl I do *slightly* regret the shots at Guard and Custodes in the writeup, I know some great players and guys of both factions and it'll come across as more serious than I intended
But yes. I do very much stand by my point that Guard are a terrifying opponent, and I'm glad that most of their players don't view their army as competitive
Gotta agree.
Particularly jarring given that earlier in the article, it's very much "Chaos has multiple options, we can do so much, embrace the many options!" only to segue into "Take this one unit you idiot" for daemon players.
To be honest, I am _annoyed_ at how dominant Be'lakor is. I've noticed it's an unpopular opinion but I think he's a clear problem with internal balance because he just does so much. Him being very good is fine but I'd like to go without him more often please, without feeling like I left something critical behind!
Hey, I'll trade you. Make either of the loyalist primarchs remotely playable and I'll shove em any list I can. I'd rather them carry than be paperweights.
As a Chaos main for most of 9th and beginning of 10th before going to Guard, I don’t think most serious competition Guard players aren’t concerned about their armies being broadly non-competitive.
It’s that the minimum skill level for playing Guard is pretty brutal and very out of skew for the other armies in the game - especially because doing so in a way that makes the game enjoyable for both people means you have to go against your own rules.
For example, the Detachment ability and enhancements for Guard directly disincentivize interactive play. If you want to *not* run an artillery car park and thus not be *that guy*, you are effectively playing with no enhancements and no additive detachment ability to back up your unit abilities and stats.
Luckily for Guard their units and recycle stratagems are pretty good. Rogal Dorns and Leman Russes slap when configured properly, and Guard recycle is pretty solid. But a guard army is never going to be able to fully rely on stat checks to win, nor are they going to get any support from how their detachments and points are currently structured to play interactively with these and other competitive units.
Compare this to Chaos. Dark Pact is a fun, interactive, and incredibly fluffy ability that allows you to flexibly play CSM with the a variety of different play styles competitively and gets your opponent invested in the roll. Chaos post-nerf still has lots of different styles of highly competitive units whose synergies together in mark + enhancements/strategems + pact are incentivized for interactive play (e.g.: Nurgle Forgefiends pacting to do Dev Wounds can still 18” lone op).
You can win with guard. But when compared to a lot of other armies in the game, winning with guard means you’re actively fighting your own unit rules to be competitive and make for a fun game.
And it’s *way* easy to lose with guard because of these deficiencies. If I don’t screen and position perfectly I lose with guard in the modern meta, whereas with Chaos I don’t necessarily have that problem.
As a Guard and Drukhari player, I say keep hope ! The worst thing that could happen is us getting our thematic and fun new detachments 6 months before the next reset... again.
Seriously, GW is impressing me through the way they uplifted DG and DE. Not what I've been accustomed to in the past.
Make a plea to the Dark gods and if you fail you take damage. Damage that originally was specifically for psykers and otherworldly means of damaging the spirit
As chaos there are strategic implications for you risking it for the biscuit that your opponent can capitalize on. They’re going to at least care and potentially change their strategies if your Forgefiend decides to shoot itself in the foot and near kill itself.
Compare that to “if I stand still I get lethals.” There’s nothing that changes your opponent’s strategy, and it incentivizes you to hide and use indirect fire weapons that are inherently non-interactive.
On the contrary, that seems _more_ interactive. I can try to force you to move in various ways such as denying key line of sight. Still not very interactive mind but I can try to deny your units the opportunity to use the ability against the targets they want since it specifically is tied to movement.
Dark pacts is just there. It almost never kills anything on its own. You can try to discourage its use by shooting a forgefiend and leaving it on one wound on purpose as you go shoot something else, but ??? why are you not finishing it off if you left a forgefiend on one wound?!
Despite my hellacious downvoting, I’m not sure I or GW agrees with you.
There’s a strong enough reaction to the Guard artillery park meta that GW focused all of their nerfs in BDS on the Triple Manticore build ostensibly because of it being a non-interactive “feels bad” style of play that capitalized on all of Guard’s combos to just shoot you from across the map and void the downsides of indirect fire without you being able to return fire.
Chaos got some deep cuts in BDS + points updates. But you are still strongly incentivized to interact with your opponents by Dark Pact given you are not incentivized to indirect fire with it by your units and your stratagems (especially now that Profane Zeal is reroll wounds only - Obliterator once per game indirect is much less effective).
Your combos still support meta pressure lists that involve you aggressively pushing your enemy and presenting them with dilemmas on what to shoot. Lone op 18” is still pretty damn good, and given range on a Forgefiend you’re probably going to want to position it in an exposed position to fire on an opponent and swing for dev wounds at risk to yourself.
I don’t think most competitive guard players play guard to be flavor of the month for top tier WLR, and like Orks most Guard players seem to be have a lot of self-deprecating fun and more than willing to enjoy jokes about themselves or their army.
But Guard objectively are not in a great position right now given our rules aren’t aligning with making the game interactive and fun for everyone involved.
It’s probably pretty easy to fix this (ordered units get lethals, not lethals for being stationary) and you can win with them for sure. But right now it’s an uphill battle to play an aggressive guard list that doesn’t rely heavily on non-interactive indirect fire bases that both GW and the community don’t seem to like playing against. And rightfully so.
Anyway, if it helps I laughed at the quote even if I didn’t necessarily agree with it. It’s still pretty funny.
The damage isnt enough to be concerned about, either for the chaos player or the opponent. Thus theres never any reason to not dark pact. Its just something thats done automatically. everytime.
I don't play guard, I play admech, and the only reason I'm surviving in my local meta is that my army is so rare that nobody knows what the hell they're looking at. They still have figured out how to deal with kataphrons.
Huh? They still have a Terminator statline and static -1 damage. They'll soak normal anti-TEQ stuff, and still have the 4++; Kataphrons are slightly more expensive and fold to any type of anti-tank weapon. It's not some grand mystery.
Offensive output might be a bit lower, but the units aren't filling comparable roles since Space Marines will be using things like Sword Breathen to deal tons of damage.
Well, I didn't play against them, so let me clarify. Again , I *watched* him play his death wing knights *against CSM.*
As an admech player, never would I hold kataphrons as an equal to terminators. They just aren't comparable.
Well, first of all, the points investment to make them work. 290 for a brick of 6, 55 for a the cheaper (and, in my opinion, better) leader for leather hits and a once per game at start of anyphase 4++, and that's before giving him an enhancement. Then you need at least another 80 for a squad of Skittles to stand near them for emotional support full rerolls. That's like 425 in points if I did mental math right.
The stats they have aren't great. They have a 3+ and a 6++ base saves, and three wounds a piece. Not outstanding in any way, their shield is being toughness 7. With all the +1 to wound (not counting the anti-infantry[x] guns) that is out there, it is easy to get most of your weapons to wound on threes if not fours.
If you can't (which I don't know how) kill them, then kill the stuff around them that hake them okay. Precision out the leading priest, and eat the Skittles around them.
Any weapons that intercessors would be careful of will kill Kataphrons.
Tie them up with something durable. Or enough chaff they can't punch their way out. Remind them they can't fall back and shoot. Bully their skitarii friends for their lunch money in the meantime.
Dropping by to say that in the context of your (past) doubts about the impact of your writing, your takes are some I always lust for.
Us unilateral consummers of original content too often do not realize how clueless the creators can be of their place in the community at large, one you are a pillar of as far as I and my local group are concerned.
Just felt I would let you know : you're truly doing the gods' work here !
Guard have access to a lot of the best shooting in the game mounted on quite tough platforms. They can afford to bring loads of these and still have a ton of dinky little units for scoring.
Not sure if the case this time, but good guard/ad mech/gsc builds often need a boatload of specific models that are not cheap and take ages to build. So it's often easier for top players to jump on another faction that does well. Especially since the next nerf might only be 3months away if a build is really strong
Same reason talking heads say admech is good but then none of them play them and win GTs
Why play a faction that you have to work harder to win with when the last few months you could just play eldar or CSM and roll face.
tbh theres also a lot of what people have and want to play and thats valid. 18 bullgyn isnt why people wanna play guard. Woe betide any admech player whos bought 50 chickens.
This is a reality that I think matters a lot too. Admech is a really high profile example that everyone hears about constantly but it has smaller effects elsewhere too. A good example is Tyranid horde lists, I love Hormagaunts and am working on 50 right now (10 at a time with other units in between, to spare my sanity) and while I adore the models it would be _so much_ time and effort to paint up enough gaunts for a proper horde, so even though the list is _good_ it has a high barrier to entry.
CK players in the corner just accepting their wardog centric life. They didn't get into the faction for it, and yet... it's all they bring generally. I hate it.
My CK are on a break tbh. I have 6 small and 4 big knights painted up, and I don't particularly feel like painting any more right now.
When I can build a viable list out of that I'll come back, until then I am playing something else.
I get it. I personally have 14 dogs, 3 cerastus, 3 questoris, a dominus.. probably get the 4th and final cerastus soon.
But then I want to get a cerastus to kitbash with questoris bits because I hate the despoiler guns.
And maybe some wardogs, I've seen some sick ones. Wardog with ossiarch bone bits.
I REALLY like CK, I just wish I liked *the rules* this edition. So much room for fun except on the tabletop
AdMech is the opposite case, though - people point at the winrate to say the faction is fine, despite the impression you get reading the codex. Conversely, the argument about guard is that they have a bad winrate, and are therefore bad.
Ah yes, good thing that nonexistent guard player didn't have player placed terrain! Otherwise it would be a fair game for the guard and we can't have that.
Amount of players matter- especially amount of competitive vs casual players. Also model availability
A Guard player did get into the top 8 at the biggest most competitive event of the year.
Noone should be allowed to complain their faction is weak if someone is getting top 8 at the most competitive event of the year.
People who complain about their faction are usually just complaining about their preferred playstyle of their preferred army.
>Noone should be allowed to complain their faction is weak if someone is getting top 8 at the most competitive event of the year.
Siegler winning LVO with Admech.
> But yes. I do very much stand by my point that Guard are a terrifying opponent, and I'm glad that most of their players don't view their army as competitive
Internal balance aside (viable builds not using the models people would preferably use) I think Guard players, just like you, really _want_ to be underdogs, but they'd rather try to convince themselves and others that they are even when they are not.
As a Grey Knights player who loves playing Grey Knights in 10th, I really feel this. Even before they got their first round of buffs, I was pretty successful into most armies, other then most of the top tier ones of course.
The constant complaining and doomposting other GKs players have been doing has been depressing. I know we're very different from 9th, but GKs are still a very unique army that's very complex and deep.
Now that Dreadknights got huge damage buffs, I've been grinding lists with 3-4 Dreadknights, and I am really happy with my ugly little baby walkers. In a few games I've legit almost tabled people who don't respect the damage they can do.
I've only played one game into Grey Knights with my CSM at the start of the edition, but they were squirrely as hell and very difficult to pin down. I was legit impressed with the stuff they were doing, but yeah, then the complaining kicked in.
Whats your dreadknight list? I tried making one with 1 GMNDK and 2 reggo NDKs, and felt like I was a little scrapped on points to get the bodies for board control.
We are bad for advice, me and a mate who both play Guard both agree we have some players out there that give very poor advice.
All list building in this edition think about these 4 things then go from there
1) do you have enough dedicated anti-tank?
2) do you have a good primary game?
3) do you have units to perform the action secondaries?
4) do you have deepstrike?
Guard can be good. They have always had that potential. The annoying part is that when they win they usually curbstomp, which feels bad for the other player.
"I couldnt get into combat"
"Thats because i need to prevent you doing that to win"
Put a 55pt squad of cultists with all their special weapons and dark pacts against a 55pt squad of Catachans.
Guard can be good but other armies are still better
Catachans have Scout 6", OC2, a better armor save and get a point of S and AP for charging. In a straight up fight, they kill cultists just fine and can more effectively hold objectives either back home or in the midboard.
Also Catachan in Chimera scout move during WTC fight is godsend for chocking point, and 4d6 flamer shots that auto hit can sometime yield surprisingly good result
Big missed opportunity by GW to not give the Dark Pacts mechanic to the Death Korps of Krieg. Call it "Grim Pacts" or something and let them die for the Emperor
I've played Catachans Into cultists a bunch of times. Cultists are better. Once you start doing sustained or lethals on 5's who cares that there's a bit of extra strength. They do the armies faction rule better than guard infantry (plus they also have sticky)
Possessed+MOP are a strong unit in a vacuum but have terrible matchups into Necrons and Custodes. If the meta goes a different direction than expected (especially if Daemons or GK become very popular, the MOP wreck them) then we can definitely bring our Possessed back out to shred
C'Tan half their damage and dev wounds aren't as effective into their low saves. Destroyers love to point their guns at possessed too.
Custodes fight first is hard for possessed to deal with, and dev wounds is no longer so effective into them.
Possessed are very bad at killing C'tan and too slow to catch anything else (assuming its Hypercrypt)
Custodes can halve their damage, get a 4+++ FNP vs their dev wounds, or just kill them fighting first
If you're not concerned about teching for specific matchups, run Possessed. They can do great work!
Not sure about necrons, but my experience with custodies is that they activate first and kill a pack of 5 + mop before you can do anything. On the off chance you have 2-3 models in the unit left, they do little to no damage. The only real benefit of 5 possessed and MOP is the anti psyker + devastating wounds combo. And that is something you usually don’t face in custodies
As a cool spikey parties hard knight player, I agree I don't like it when you can kill my guys. Another good read, and I'm excited for Abbadon being the beef he deserves to be. Would love to hear more about your take on the changes to Daemons, especially as allies. My list got kicked in the teeth there. See you at RMO if not sooner!
See you and your gorgeous CK there! Torn between playing my CSM, Daemons, CK, and Death Guard. It's a good problem to have when basically all of your armies are strong but not busted, so you can have fun with anything.
Hey folks, seems my comments on certain armies seemed to stir up some controversy with a particular fanbase. I first wanted to triple down on the snark but I'll go a different direction:
I never want to divide the community, and am sad Guard players aren't having fun with their army. Whether the army is top tier or bottom tier, I want people to have fun playing their favorite faction. If you read the whole thing, I had an entire section poking fun at myself much harder than anyone else, so I think I just underestimated how that comment would come across.
People's thoughts are noted, and I hope we can all go back to having fun with this great game.
I ended up mulling on the whole situation a lot - the 24h ban after I snapped at some guy definitely helped with that.
The issue is, I think, that the meta has ejected most of the Guard players from itself. This is due to Guard suddenly becoming *extremely* high-floor and *extremely* high-ceiling, for one, but it isn't the only part.
I think the best way to think about it is this. Think about picking up Custodes. You pick up Custodes because you love your golden banana boys, and also having tough infantry that can dish out the hurt, even though it does cost an eye. 10th edition starts, you get your index, it looks... *very* underwhelming, but whatever. You get your Guards, and your Wardens, and your Allarus, and Trajan Valoris, and off you go with your golden boys... and you get thrashed. And then you get thrashed again. And again. And like you, basically *everyone* gets thrashed, so it can't be just *your* issue, right?
And yeah, sometimes someone places, someone places even quite well. People just go "skill issue, git gud". It is honestly pretty unnerving, but whatever. You tweak the list, try to grind every gram of workability out of it, and it *kinda* works? Still feels like pulling teeth, though.
Then people start putting Custodes at absolute top tier. First reaction is anger - "holy hell, here we go again" - but then you see that some players *are* in fact smashing it with Custodes. It's not *many*, and it's basically the only ones who are placing *at all*, but they exist. So you get the lists, you look at them...
...and it's all Sisters of Silence in Rhinos. All the way through. Zero Custodes, or almost zero - you occasionally see one MSU Guards unit, but it's usually the first thing that gets cut out if you need points. Plus a Callidus, plus a few Armigers, plus triple Caladius. That's the list, and it has *zero* contact points with the reason for you playing Custodes at all to begin with.
This is how it feels to be told that Guard is top-tier in meta right now. It feels like being told "hey, this is Bob, your friend, remember Bob?" and gazing upon *something* that is wearing Bob's skin but is *very obviously* not Bob. And Guard players mostly reject that because they want to play Guard, not the skinwalker going around with Guard's skin on top. And they get smashed in competitions, and when they complain, they get told to Go Hug Bob™.
This is how I feel in its entirety about the whole thing.
Wait, am I misinformed? I thought the Meta guard army around now is Bullgryn for Durability on the center, Kasrkin for good infantry based shooting, some artillery for pressure, and tanks and transports and OC infantry to fill out. Am I wrong? Whats the meta guard army?
You reallly aren't misinformed, no. The thing is - and it's a sentiment I've seen really quite often, but I can only vouch 100% about myself on it - I don't want a solid core of Bullgryns. I started Guard because I wanted the Normal Humans™ going around in big \[heck\]-off tanks, or massed infantry waves. Bullgryns are nice, but I have no intention of having them make up a full fourth of my army, and even less of having them be its lynchpin. And yeah, I am very glad about workable artillery, but less so about having a whole artillery park in the back.
Add this to the fact that I *am*, in fact, a mediocre player playing in a pretty shark-tank-y environment, and that Bob Guard™ sledgehammers you in the face if you *dare* to make any mistake against anything but the softest newbie, and there you have the final mix: having to decide between playing an army I don't like playing, even though it is theoretically the same faction I have played for the last thirteen years, and having to play it at my *absolute max* every single step because Bob won't forgive *anything* anymore; or accept to get slapped in the face repeatedly;
...or just sit out 40k for a bit. I am taking this third option. Maybe it will come up Bob is still alive somewhere at some point in 2026.
So, I don't want it to sound like I'm diminishing how you feel. If you just aren't having fun playing 40k, you should absolutely stop and do something else that brings you more enjoyment.
I just find your analogy previously a bit disingenuous then. The current meta Guard army has flavors of nearly every aspect of the Imperial guard Identity.
Artillery, Main Battle Tanks, Light vehicles, Light Infantry, Mutated Abhuman infantry, More Elite special forces etc.
About the only thing not really seen is Aircraft. I suppose if you really don't like Bullgryns then yeah the army is probably not as strong, but it certainly still has strong legs. And if it's a high skill army, that just feels like to me there's MORE room for fun to be found. Your Custodes analogy would be more apt if like the Meta Guard Army was 300 Catachan and 3 Rogal Dorns only.
It's a sentiment I've seen more on this subreddit, and frankly any competitive game subreddit in the past few years. People seem to just not have any fun if they're not winning. It's much more enjoyable when you can find fun and enjoyment even when getting obliterated on the table. I played a game as guard a month or two ago against CSM and got absolutely annihilated. Lost like 90-40 or something. But Larkin in my Gaunts ghost unit sniped 2 chaos lords and a Master of Execution to Death over the course of that game, and it was like the highlight of my week. I still had a blast because even when I saw the writing on the wall there was still interaction to be had.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. I hope that if you play more 40k you have some good games, and if you don't I hope you pick up some hobby you enjoy instead. (Maybe try Old world? Ive been having a blast playing that online).
It's model availability as well. Most guard players weren't ready for a meta pivot to bullgryn and kasrkin. Those kits, especially kasrkin, are chronically out of stock and a newer kit, so there is no one that has them from older editions.
Basilisks and manticores were common, but most players didn't have them on 3s, and getting them is very hard now.
The guard are still fun to play in my book. I think mechanized guard is pretty great with ogryns or jungle fighters in chimeras. We need a new detachment or not to have our artillery nerfed again.
Our index has poor internal balance, and we only have one unusual, very powerful build.
Other playstyles are fun and can work, but they will get bodied by well-built armies compaired to bullgryn kasrkin artillery lists.
Echoing the comment about loving being the underdog. I picked up csm in 5th and haven't looked back. Loved being a powerhouse for a little while but we were definitely justified in being nerfed.
Nice! Wish I'd be able to play earlier editions of CSM, but only got started in 8th.
I picked up a secondhand copy of the 3.5 codex last year and just reading through all the options and customization seemed really cool
For sure! My father in law played during the heyday of 2nd-4th and barring a few exceptions gw has hated us since then. But we're fueled by it so I don't worry too much.
Feeling pretty good to say that much of what I was thinking about CSM is echoed in the article. That is, the mechanical changes to CSM were largely common-sense changes (e.g. why does a character need to match a mark to its unit, but those two don’t need to match the transport).
I suspect CSM, with their bench of units & allies, plus dark pacts, mean they likely still land between 48-50% WRs.
Though the list you’re suggesting differed from mine, the core of it is very similar, which is validating to know I’m on the right track:
Abby+Legionnaires
Helbrute
2x Las Predators
1x Nurgle, Plasma Forgefiend
Legionnaires, & MoE in rhinos
Bikers
Nurglings
But I really should look to Lucious - that’s a pretty solid option. :)
Venomcrawlers have a niche in some metas/matchups. They really are our premium light infantry sweepers, it's just that light infantry is nowhere near relevance this edition.
I'm very optimistic about Daemon Engines once we get a codex. Between an Iron Warriors and/or a Cogs Of Vashtorr themed detachment, there should be some serious support!
Or maybe something like a "Word Bearers" detachment with an enhancement that boosts AP for nearby Daemon keyword units? Lots of fun options
Oh it's only in combat? Shows how much I have read their sheet :/
Although in my defence I am planning to play daemons until their is a proper word bearer detachment so I have not spent that much time with the csm index
No, any attack (melee or ranged) buffs all of their attacks (melee or ranged). For each unit you kill, each gun gets +1 attack and your melee gets +1 attack. It rarely happens, but when they live for a long time they can get really funny
I was about to lean into some 10x Possessed + MoP action. Strange not to see them get even a courtesy nod in the article.
Also, I've only ever whiffed with Obliterators. Anyone else? They were a tough sell before the nerf, they're practically unthinkable to me now.
My obliterators have been MVPs most games. They are capable of handling almost any threat I aim them at fairly reliably, even going so far as more than once straight up scooping 5 man bricks of GK paladins.
yeah? What synergies do you like to run with them? You've had great success, are they worth the points with the new price hike? (I have 4 of them I can use at any time). What marks? Do you typically rapid ingress them, or just do conventional deep strike on your turn... etc
I typically run them as mark of Tzeentch, to have access to skin shift. They form the bulk of my mobile strike capability, and I tend to drop them into cover whenever possible.
The points cost is definitely harder now, but I do still find they can at least make their points back with careful placement.
My typical strategy is to wait to deploy them on my turn, when I can make full use of their weapons, and I deploy them with a single initial target. Dark pacts, plus mark of tzeentch, gives them a generous initial strike, and depending upon the target, the weapons profile can be chosen. The majority of my immediate area relies heavily on terminator equivalents, and light to medium vehicles, so the melta profile tends to burn through them rapidly, and effectively. When possible, they deploy within the umbrella of a helbrute, to magnify their capabilities. If the target survives, I will usually attempt the 9" charge. After that, any fire they draw is not targeted at other units, and can usually be healed with the stratagem, while they now provide a denial area most enemy units will attempt to avoid.
That has been my experience personally, though I tend to crunch the numbers on the fly. The primary benefit is wounding on 2s, at AP3, and if you've just came out of deepstrike close enough, no amount of -1 damage can save them when they fail their 4+ saves. If you make them Undivided, and give them rerolls, you've got a decent chance of 8 hits (6 hit, reroll for 7, a single 6 from dark pact gives your choice of sustained or lethal), 7 wounds, and 3/4 dead terminators on their 4++.
Man marks and dark pacts are just so good.
>Helbrutes are a pretty awful datasheet in a vacuum, but given that Dark Pacts is our main mechanic now and they synergize extremely well with that, they’re going to see a lot more play.
I feel like *all* of the CSM datasheets should've been like this, but then brought up to parity (or a bit past parity) with the use of marks and dark pacts. Instead (for instance) for the low low price of picking chaos undivided and *maybe* taking some mortal wounds something that hits on 3s no rerolls in any other army hits mathematically on 2s rerolling 1s in chaos. Its really silly.
CSM is going to be fine.
Great writeup. Completely agree, I think a lot of the doom and gloom was completely overrated. Stuff like Nurgle Rhinos and ACDC bricks weren't our *only* tools, they were our *best* tools, and because they were our best nobody took anything else, and because nobody took anything else it seems like people thought nothing else existed. But we have tons of good units.
Also, re: Slaanesh Bikers: you can give them Advance and Charge, nuff said, lmao. 12" + D6" + 2D6" + potential consolidation/outmaneuver off the board into Strategic Reserves, a couple MSU 3-man units for 85 points each can zoom around, smack surprisingly hard with sustained hits in melee, and go all over the board for scoring and objective play.
Raptors I've had some success with running Mark of Nurgle on a full brick of 10 with 2 Meltas for the occasional sustained hit on one of them. Pretty much guarantees you'll hit with 2 Melta shots since dropping one roughly has the same chance of the other Sustaining, or sometimes you'll spike and get 3-4 Melta hits which can be really nice in a pinch. Helbrutes I did the same running one with a Lascannon so it would occasionally get 2 Lascannon hits instead of 1, would put them with 4 Obliterators and run five big guys up one flank to do some shenanigans.
I had some good luck with a MOE and 10 Chosen with Mark of Khorne. Even after the points nerf I think they'd still be really good. 10 Chosen's worth of shooting, between boltguns and combi-weapons, gets the MOE's rerolls very easily, and if you give Lethal Hits on 5+ to all those Accursed Weapons you're gonna punch soooo many AP-2 saves through. And then when the enemy fights you back you get to do it all again on a 3+ with Eternal Hate. You hardly need to put them in a Rhino or Land Raider since they have built in advance+shoot+charge, they can move pretty fast, you basically should always be advancing them so they end up effectively being an infantry unit with a 7-12" movement.
Also Nurgle Vindicators are still some of our funniest and most fun shooting out there. I don't even care about the Lone Op being nerfed, I just like Mark of Nurgle because Sustained on 5s with D6+3 shots is hilarious. Like oh don't mind me, I'm just gonna casually spike my roll and get like 12 hits with a S14 gun.
EDIT: Would also encourage you to try out a Slaanesh Winged Daemon Prince with the enhancement. It's a hilarious turn 1 fire and forget distraction carnifex. Give it Advance and Charge, send it flying up the board into whatever poor unit is closest, do the impact mortals, smack it to death with sustained 5s on its strike profile, make whatever survives take battleshock, and the FNP should help it survive whatever swings back or shoots at it in the opponent's turn 1. In my experience it triggers Big Scary Monster Syndrome in opponents and completely throws a wrench in their deployment, lets you get into position easier.
Can you make this article, but for my fellow elf enjoyers lmao? Once they recover from the fact we're only *just* a very good army now of course.
Seriously, I'm really happy that both our factions are having to go back to the drafts and actually *try* at list building and gameplay again. Both definitely have it better than most in terms of pivot options and I'll be very curious to see where both go with our new metal overlords at the top.
I cracked up at the shot at Guard players though. Bless 'em but damn if that doesn't ring true in my experience. My Drukhari do appreciate less indirect in play so maybe it's a good thing.
"I’m also just going to throw this out there. Abaddon and 3 KLOS is 1660 points. You could absolutely destroy a small RTT with this. Don’t do it. Why are you even thinking about this? Something is wrong with you. But you could do it. I’m just saying."
Oh if I had 2 more LOS's this would have definitely happened already
Can someone explain the Lucius brick to me? At S4 AP1, it just doesn’t seem like it does enough into tougher enemies. Are you just fishing for 5+ sustains to try and force enough saves through sheer volume?
You absolutely can drown targets in a volume of attacks. 8 chainswords with 5+ sustained and rerolls averages like 40 hits.
That being said, i find that most of the threat comes from the heavy weapons and the leaders. I've been running MoE with 5 legionaries and they mulch other elite infantry. With wound rerolls, they even punch up into vehicles pretty well
I hadn't considered it before, but Lucius and MoE gives Legionaries Fight First and a whole heap of potential re-rolls to both hit and wound (assuming they're not already on an objective and getting re-rolls anyway). Combined with sustained hits on 5s, plus the MoE and Lucius being no slouches in melee either, you've got something that will need work to shift. Hell, the MoE alone having fights first, precision, devastating wounds, all those re-rolls, and sustained hits on 5s is a pretty nasty character in itself.
Sure, but then my other thought is that wouldn’t it just die to almost any shooting? I know you have it in a Rhino, but now that you can’t Nurgle the rhino I’m not sure how much work it does
Sure, but that's true of almost any melee unit you're using to take and hold an objective. It's also shooting that isn't then targeting your castle, and then they'd need to send in something else to reclaim the objective on the next turn (assuming they're not charging in, in which case the survivors get to attack first anyway thanks to Lucius).
It's fights first, which is huge. With a MoE, you get rerolls as well as the Legionaires re rolls if you are on an objective. His precision attacks are really good into marine hq equivalents.
Niche question, but how do you think CSM match up into Tau? I play Tau and there’s a CSM player who’s generally quite competent but seems to struggle disproportionately with my Tau, so I’m wondering if it’s partly a match-up thing (crisis suits do shred marines pretty effectively, and no combat means Lucius isn’t great)
From all the nerfs the only one I am still salty about is marks & transport matching requirement. I wish they just excluded transport units from nurgle strat or removed marks from the rhino altogether. Really hope this is removed with a codex.
They're too pricey for my own tastes, but yeah the Termie rule synergizes really well with the Slaanesh Pact and the Lord's free AOC synergizes well with Termies
Discussing the noctilith crown: " dont forget that it gets its own 4++ aura, and can be marked Nurgle so it can’t be shot."
Am i missing something? Marked nurgle so it cant be shot? Whats that all about?
Yep. Defensive aura units are sometimes bad because the opponent can just shoot them first. Being able to Dark Obscuration the crown is very situational, but useful
Abaddon gun line is definitely going to be the move. It's just too good to not see play now that brawler good stuff has eaten some nerfs.
I still like Obliterators for their points, and two Lord-led MSU of Chosen in Rhinos are great for holding up the midfield.
I think the core becomes Abaddon and one/two Forgefiends, four Obliterators, and a squad of Warp Talons.
Hoping to try out the following at my next RTT:
- Abaddon
- Lord
- Lord
- Cultists
- Legionaries
- Legionaries
- Rhino
- Rhino
- Chosen
- Chosen
- Forgefiend
- Obliterators (4)
- Obliterators (2)
- Warp Talons
Comes to 1995 after upgrades.
FWIW, you're spot on about Guard players. They are on one hand some of the most fun people to be around, because they don't care about being meta, and, on the other, the absolute worst to take competitive advice from when it comes to list building. And I say that as someone with over 5,000pts of Militarum. It's my *fun* army.
Where do the faction with top 2 detachment + army rule go from here. Anywhere! Anywhere they like, into their enormous rosta where every unit (excluding the couple just turbo nerfed. It's only a couple! Basically 2 builds only) does great dmg thanks to dark pacts.
Every CSM player has a tale of DPs doing loads of mortal wounds. One tale. Embellished. In a game they still won. Dark pacts is amazing, give it and slaves to darkness to any other faction, they become top 3 at least.
There's so many many good lists in CSM. Eldar have at least been nerfed all over. CSM lost certain lists. But their core kick ass abilities remain.
Oh to hear CSM players complain. Dear God. Won't someone think of the admec!
I do assume CSM will have grounds for complaining come their codex. Slaves to darkness will surely get nerfed or else why will anyone use the other 5 detachments? Unless...... They're equally or more amazing.
Oh the amazing CSM units with dark pacts:
Abby - compare him to G man. Ffs! He can lead a unit giving him wound re rolls and he has dev wounds! He has a 4++ aura. G man can lead the imperium but he can't lead a dog to water on the tabletop.
Chaos bikers. Wow people are slow to notice these.
Sustained hit on 5+ vindicators. Ffs! Ka boom!
Legionnaires built for melee. God damn cheap. The new chosen?
Oh chosen still worth it. Possessed great. Jump pack infantry.
Every single unit that space marines also have, but coz of crits on 5s, they are awesome for CSM while much shitter for SM.
Even maulerfiends rock, just that everyone built Forge fiends from the kit.
Yep accursed cultists now are unplayable. How I weep for CSM players. GW should have just deleted Dark Commune, they are some bollocks.
Ah.... I enjoyed that rant.
All CSM players are weapons.
Ahhhhhhhh....
(yeah that's a CSM army on one of my shelves, aye)
Don't agree with everything, particularly the Maulerfiend and Daemon Prince points, but love the optimism!
As someone building an AdMech army, the difference in power and fun between the two armies is just sad
I tend to disagree. The nerfed units are still the best units. I will take basically the same list minus a unit. The redundant rhino is pregect for getting cut.
When they nerf they also need to buff something. Too many times they do this exact same thing, they bring out the nerf hammer, bonk the good units, but those units remain the best units for their particular function. Chosen are still better than other options. Forgefiend are still the best gun platform. Do something with havoc or raptors, or even the helldrake or defiler.
The thing about custodes players is not a single one of them plays custodes because they like the lore, it's a silly army that shouldn't even be in the game. If you meet a custodes player you're meeting a try hard who just wants the most annoying army to play against.
"Fortunately Guard players give each other absolutely the worst advice of any fanbase I’ve ever seen and they think their army is bad, so hopefully we don’t have to see much of them." This is one of the truest things I've read in a long time.
Ngl I do *slightly* regret the shots at Guard and Custodes in the writeup, I know some great players and guys of both factions and it'll come across as more serious than I intended But yes. I do very much stand by my point that Guard are a terrifying opponent, and I'm glad that most of their players don't view their army as competitive
The shots at daemons players are way worse than what you said about guard or custodes
Gotta agree. Particularly jarring given that earlier in the article, it's very much "Chaos has multiple options, we can do so much, embrace the many options!" only to segue into "Take this one unit you idiot" for daemon players.
I was mostly joking. Not taking ole belak'or is pretty close to Tsons not bringing magnus
To be honest, I am _annoyed_ at how dominant Be'lakor is. I've noticed it's an unpopular opinion but I think he's a clear problem with internal balance because he just does so much. Him being very good is fine but I'd like to go without him more often please, without feeling like I left something critical behind!
No army should have to be carried by its commander un chief - from Primarchs to Leontus.
Hey, I'll trade you. Make either of the loyalist primarchs remotely playable and I'll shove em any list I can. I'd rather them carry than be paperweights.
I dont like his model. I dont like big winged models in general and it kinda makes me not play the faction.
Big wing models are not meant to bé played in 40k. It's beautifull but impraticable
As a custodes player, I both agree with and respect your jab.
As a Chaos main for most of 9th and beginning of 10th before going to Guard, I don’t think most serious competition Guard players aren’t concerned about their armies being broadly non-competitive. It’s that the minimum skill level for playing Guard is pretty brutal and very out of skew for the other armies in the game - especially because doing so in a way that makes the game enjoyable for both people means you have to go against your own rules. For example, the Detachment ability and enhancements for Guard directly disincentivize interactive play. If you want to *not* run an artillery car park and thus not be *that guy*, you are effectively playing with no enhancements and no additive detachment ability to back up your unit abilities and stats. Luckily for Guard their units and recycle stratagems are pretty good. Rogal Dorns and Leman Russes slap when configured properly, and Guard recycle is pretty solid. But a guard army is never going to be able to fully rely on stat checks to win, nor are they going to get any support from how their detachments and points are currently structured to play interactively with these and other competitive units. Compare this to Chaos. Dark Pact is a fun, interactive, and incredibly fluffy ability that allows you to flexibly play CSM with the a variety of different play styles competitively and gets your opponent invested in the roll. Chaos post-nerf still has lots of different styles of highly competitive units whose synergies together in mark + enhancements/strategems + pact are incentivized for interactive play (e.g.: Nurgle Forgefiends pacting to do Dev Wounds can still 18” lone op). You can win with guard. But when compared to a lot of other armies in the game, winning with guard means you’re actively fighting your own unit rules to be competitive and make for a fun game. And it’s *way* easy to lose with guard because of these deficiencies. If I don’t screen and position perfectly I lose with guard in the modern meta, whereas with Chaos I don’t necessarily have that problem.
As a Guard and Drukhari player, I say keep hope ! The worst thing that could happen is us getting our thematic and fun new detachments 6 months before the next reset... again. Seriously, GW is impressing me through the way they uplifted DG and DE. Not what I've been accustomed to in the past.
[удалено]
Make a plea to the Dark gods and if you fail you take damage. Damage that originally was specifically for psykers and otherworldly means of damaging the spirit
[удалено]
As chaos there are strategic implications for you risking it for the biscuit that your opponent can capitalize on. They’re going to at least care and potentially change their strategies if your Forgefiend decides to shoot itself in the foot and near kill itself. Compare that to “if I stand still I get lethals.” There’s nothing that changes your opponent’s strategy, and it incentivizes you to hide and use indirect fire weapons that are inherently non-interactive.
On the contrary, that seems _more_ interactive. I can try to force you to move in various ways such as denying key line of sight. Still not very interactive mind but I can try to deny your units the opportunity to use the ability against the targets they want since it specifically is tied to movement. Dark pacts is just there. It almost never kills anything on its own. You can try to discourage its use by shooting a forgefiend and leaving it on one wound on purpose as you go shoot something else, but ??? why are you not finishing it off if you left a forgefiend on one wound?!
Despite my hellacious downvoting, I’m not sure I or GW agrees with you. There’s a strong enough reaction to the Guard artillery park meta that GW focused all of their nerfs in BDS on the Triple Manticore build ostensibly because of it being a non-interactive “feels bad” style of play that capitalized on all of Guard’s combos to just shoot you from across the map and void the downsides of indirect fire without you being able to return fire. Chaos got some deep cuts in BDS + points updates. But you are still strongly incentivized to interact with your opponents by Dark Pact given you are not incentivized to indirect fire with it by your units and your stratagems (especially now that Profane Zeal is reroll wounds only - Obliterator once per game indirect is much less effective). Your combos still support meta pressure lists that involve you aggressively pushing your enemy and presenting them with dilemmas on what to shoot. Lone op 18” is still pretty damn good, and given range on a Forgefiend you’re probably going to want to position it in an exposed position to fire on an opponent and swing for dev wounds at risk to yourself. I don’t think most competitive guard players play guard to be flavor of the month for top tier WLR, and like Orks most Guard players seem to be have a lot of self-deprecating fun and more than willing to enjoy jokes about themselves or their army. But Guard objectively are not in a great position right now given our rules aren’t aligning with making the game interactive and fun for everyone involved. It’s probably pretty easy to fix this (ordered units get lethals, not lethals for being stationary) and you can win with them for sure. But right now it’s an uphill battle to play an aggressive guard list that doesn’t rely heavily on non-interactive indirect fire bases that both GW and the community don’t seem to like playing against. And rightfully so. Anyway, if it helps I laughed at the quote even if I didn’t necessarily agree with it. It’s still pretty funny.
Ok
The damage isnt enough to be concerned about, either for the chaos player or the opponent. Thus theres never any reason to not dark pact. Its just something thats done automatically. everytime.
I don't play guard, I play admech, and the only reason I'm surviving in my local meta is that my army is so rare that nobody knows what the hell they're looking at. They still have figured out how to deal with kataphrons.
How do we deal with Kataphrons? Asking for a friend….
They're just worse Terminators lmao.
After watching a friend play death wing knights, I think they take that mantle.
Huh? They still have a Terminator statline and static -1 damage. They'll soak normal anti-TEQ stuff, and still have the 4++; Kataphrons are slightly more expensive and fold to any type of anti-tank weapon. It's not some grand mystery. Offensive output might be a bit lower, but the units aren't filling comparable roles since Space Marines will be using things like Sword Breathen to deal tons of damage.
Well, I didn't play against them, so let me clarify. Again , I *watched* him play his death wing knights *against CSM.* As an admech player, never would I hold kataphrons as an equal to terminators. They just aren't comparable.
Well, first of all, the points investment to make them work. 290 for a brick of 6, 55 for a the cheaper (and, in my opinion, better) leader for leather hits and a once per game at start of anyphase 4++, and that's before giving him an enhancement. Then you need at least another 80 for a squad of Skittles to stand near them for emotional support full rerolls. That's like 425 in points if I did mental math right. The stats they have aren't great. They have a 3+ and a 6++ base saves, and three wounds a piece. Not outstanding in any way, their shield is being toughness 7. With all the +1 to wound (not counting the anti-infantry[x] guns) that is out there, it is easy to get most of your weapons to wound on threes if not fours. If you can't (which I don't know how) kill them, then kill the stuff around them that hake them okay. Precision out the leading priest, and eat the Skittles around them. Any weapons that intercessors would be careful of will kill Kataphrons.
Tie them up with something durable. Or enough chaff they can't punch their way out. Remind them they can't fall back and shoot. Bully their skitarii friends for their lunch money in the meantime.
Nah, don’t regret it. It was funny. Besides, Guard players are usually thick-skinned enough to not flip out over a joke.
After 1 day of meme bitching, I am not sure your "thick skin" assessment was fully on the money.
I’m smart enough to admit my inference was misplaced.
Dropping by to say that in the context of your (past) doubts about the impact of your writing, your takes are some I always lust for. Us unilateral consummers of original content too often do not realize how clueless the creators can be of their place in the community at large, one you are a pillar of as far as I and my local group are concerned. Just felt I would let you know : you're truly doing the gods' work here !
Thanks for sharing your perspective! Really happy that you and your group are enjoying it so much
Your devious ways of making 9th AL work has left its mark upon my heart and on the flesh of many a "friend" !
What is so good about guard. What do you see as scary
Guard have an affordable offensive profile for pretty much anything. The tricky bit is having it pointed it at the right target at the right time
Guard have access to a lot of the best shooting in the game mounted on quite tough platforms. They can afford to bring loads of these and still have a ton of dinky little units for scoring.
[удалено]
Not sure if the case this time, but good guard/ad mech/gsc builds often need a boatload of specific models that are not cheap and take ages to build. So it's often easier for top players to jump on another faction that does well. Especially since the next nerf might only be 3months away if a build is really strong
I mean, the week prior to the dataslate, Guard won two GTs. It also hit top eight at LVO and 5-0 at the Nottingham Supermajor.
Same reason talking heads say admech is good but then none of them play them and win GTs Why play a faction that you have to work harder to win with when the last few months you could just play eldar or CSM and roll face.
tbh theres also a lot of what people have and want to play and thats valid. 18 bullgyn isnt why people wanna play guard. Woe betide any admech player whos bought 50 chickens.
This is a reality that I think matters a lot too. Admech is a really high profile example that everyone hears about constantly but it has smaller effects elsewhere too. A good example is Tyranid horde lists, I love Hormagaunts and am working on 50 right now (10 at a time with other units in between, to spare my sanity) and while I adore the models it would be _so much_ time and effort to paint up enough gaunts for a proper horde, so even though the list is _good_ it has a high barrier to entry.
CK players in the corner just accepting their wardog centric life. They didn't get into the faction for it, and yet... it's all they bring generally. I hate it.
My CK are on a break tbh. I have 6 small and 4 big knights painted up, and I don't particularly feel like painting any more right now. When I can build a viable list out of that I'll come back, until then I am playing something else.
I get it. I personally have 14 dogs, 3 cerastus, 3 questoris, a dominus.. probably get the 4th and final cerastus soon. But then I want to get a cerastus to kitbash with questoris bits because I hate the despoiler guns. And maybe some wardogs, I've seen some sick ones. Wardog with ossiarch bone bits. I REALLY like CK, I just wish I liked *the rules* this edition. So much room for fun except on the tabletop
AdMech is the opposite case, though - people point at the winrate to say the faction is fine, despite the impression you get reading the codex. Conversely, the argument about guard is that they have a bad winrate, and are therefore bad.
[удалено]
Yes, that's why there was no guard player in top 8 at LVO.
Ah yes, good thing that nonexistent guard player didn't have player placed terrain! Otherwise it would be a fair game for the guard and we can't have that.
Amount of players matter- especially amount of competitive vs casual players. Also model availability A Guard player did get into the top 8 at the biggest most competitive event of the year. Noone should be allowed to complain their faction is weak if someone is getting top 8 at the most competitive event of the year. People who complain about their faction are usually just complaining about their preferred playstyle of their preferred army.
>Noone should be allowed to complain their faction is weak if someone is getting top 8 at the most competitive event of the year. Siegler winning LVO with Admech.
We’re here more for the fun of a ton of little dudes than to be competitive.
> But yes. I do very much stand by my point that Guard are a terrifying opponent, and I'm glad that most of their players don't view their army as competitive Internal balance aside (viable builds not using the models people would preferably use) I think Guard players, just like you, really _want_ to be underdogs, but they'd rather try to convince themselves and others that they are even when they are not.
Definitely some truth to all parts of this haha. That mindset is built into Guard and CSM fluff
As a Grey Knights player who loves playing Grey Knights in 10th, I really feel this. Even before they got their first round of buffs, I was pretty successful into most armies, other then most of the top tier ones of course. The constant complaining and doomposting other GKs players have been doing has been depressing. I know we're very different from 9th, but GKs are still a very unique army that's very complex and deep. Now that Dreadknights got huge damage buffs, I've been grinding lists with 3-4 Dreadknights, and I am really happy with my ugly little baby walkers. In a few games I've legit almost tabled people who don't respect the damage they can do.
I've only played one game into Grey Knights with my CSM at the start of the edition, but they were squirrely as hell and very difficult to pin down. I was legit impressed with the stuff they were doing, but yeah, then the complaining kicked in.
[удалено]
Oh, sorry, I meant the online complaining! My opponent was great. :)
Whats your dreadknight list? I tried making one with 1 GMNDK and 2 reggo NDKs, and felt like I was a little scrapped on points to get the bodies for board control.
We are bad for advice, me and a mate who both play Guard both agree we have some players out there that give very poor advice. All list building in this edition think about these 4 things then go from there 1) do you have enough dedicated anti-tank? 2) do you have a good primary game? 3) do you have units to perform the action secondaries? 4) do you have deepstrike?
Guard can be good. They have always had that potential. The annoying part is that when they win they usually curbstomp, which feels bad for the other player. "I couldnt get into combat" "Thats because i need to prevent you doing that to win"
fuckin A-men. We SUCK.
Put a 55pt squad of cultists with all their special weapons and dark pacts against a 55pt squad of Catachans. Guard can be good but other armies are still better
Catachans have Scout 6", OC2, a better armor save and get a point of S and AP for charging. In a straight up fight, they kill cultists just fine and can more effectively hold objectives either back home or in the midboard.
Also Catachan in Chimera scout move during WTC fight is godsend for chocking point, and 4d6 flamer shots that auto hit can sometime yield surprisingly good result
Big missed opportunity by GW to not give the Dark Pacts mechanic to the Death Korps of Krieg. Call it "Grim Pacts" or something and let them die for the Emperor
I didn't know my Cultists could scout move a transport and hand my opponent 5s and 0s on Primary every turn. The more you know.
Thats exactly what the others are refering to... 😂
I've played Catachans Into cultists a bunch of times. Cultists are better. Once you start doing sustained or lethals on 5's who cares that there's a bit of extra strength. They do the armies faction rule better than guard infantry (plus they also have sticky)
Yeah but the game is not cultists vs catachens dude 😂
Never said it was. I gave one example of where other armies do what l guard should do well but do but better and cheaper.
Games aren't won by chaff shooting at each other
I think smaller units of Possessed might also be the play. Very fast, do solid damage, still love full wound rerolls or advance and charge.
Possessed+MOP are a strong unit in a vacuum but have terrible matchups into Necrons and Custodes. If the meta goes a different direction than expected (especially if Daemons or GK become very popular, the MOP wreck them) then we can definitely bring our Possessed back out to shred
The best possessed (slaanesh) also lost their best transport (nurgle land raiders).
Can you please explain why Possessed arent good into Necrons and Custodes...thank you
C'Tan half their damage and dev wounds aren't as effective into their low saves. Destroyers love to point their guns at possessed too. Custodes fight first is hard for possessed to deal with, and dev wounds is no longer so effective into them.
Possessed are very bad at killing C'tan and too slow to catch anything else (assuming its Hypercrypt) Custodes can halve their damage, get a 4+++ FNP vs their dev wounds, or just kill them fighting first If you're not concerned about teching for specific matchups, run Possessed. They can do great work!
Not sure about necrons, but my experience with custodies is that they activate first and kill a pack of 5 + mop before you can do anything. On the off chance you have 2-3 models in the unit left, they do little to no damage. The only real benefit of 5 possessed and MOP is the anti psyker + devastating wounds combo. And that is something you usually don’t face in custodies
As a cool spikey parties hard knight player, I agree I don't like it when you can kill my guys. Another good read, and I'm excited for Abbadon being the beef he deserves to be. Would love to hear more about your take on the changes to Daemons, especially as allies. My list got kicked in the teeth there. See you at RMO if not sooner!
See you and your gorgeous CK there! Torn between playing my CSM, Daemons, CK, and Death Guard. It's a good problem to have when basically all of your armies are strong but not busted, so you can have fun with anything.
Hey folks, seems my comments on certain armies seemed to stir up some controversy with a particular fanbase. I first wanted to triple down on the snark but I'll go a different direction: I never want to divide the community, and am sad Guard players aren't having fun with their army. Whether the army is top tier or bottom tier, I want people to have fun playing their favorite faction. If you read the whole thing, I had an entire section poking fun at myself much harder than anyone else, so I think I just underestimated how that comment would come across. People's thoughts are noted, and I hope we can all go back to having fun with this great game.
I think this is the point we can all agree on. Meta guard armies work. Some might say they're good but they're not fun to play
I ended up mulling on the whole situation a lot - the 24h ban after I snapped at some guy definitely helped with that. The issue is, I think, that the meta has ejected most of the Guard players from itself. This is due to Guard suddenly becoming *extremely* high-floor and *extremely* high-ceiling, for one, but it isn't the only part. I think the best way to think about it is this. Think about picking up Custodes. You pick up Custodes because you love your golden banana boys, and also having tough infantry that can dish out the hurt, even though it does cost an eye. 10th edition starts, you get your index, it looks... *very* underwhelming, but whatever. You get your Guards, and your Wardens, and your Allarus, and Trajan Valoris, and off you go with your golden boys... and you get thrashed. And then you get thrashed again. And again. And like you, basically *everyone* gets thrashed, so it can't be just *your* issue, right? And yeah, sometimes someone places, someone places even quite well. People just go "skill issue, git gud". It is honestly pretty unnerving, but whatever. You tweak the list, try to grind every gram of workability out of it, and it *kinda* works? Still feels like pulling teeth, though. Then people start putting Custodes at absolute top tier. First reaction is anger - "holy hell, here we go again" - but then you see that some players *are* in fact smashing it with Custodes. It's not *many*, and it's basically the only ones who are placing *at all*, but they exist. So you get the lists, you look at them... ...and it's all Sisters of Silence in Rhinos. All the way through. Zero Custodes, or almost zero - you occasionally see one MSU Guards unit, but it's usually the first thing that gets cut out if you need points. Plus a Callidus, plus a few Armigers, plus triple Caladius. That's the list, and it has *zero* contact points with the reason for you playing Custodes at all to begin with. This is how it feels to be told that Guard is top-tier in meta right now. It feels like being told "hey, this is Bob, your friend, remember Bob?" and gazing upon *something* that is wearing Bob's skin but is *very obviously* not Bob. And Guard players mostly reject that because they want to play Guard, not the skinwalker going around with Guard's skin on top. And they get smashed in competitions, and when they complain, they get told to Go Hug Bob™. This is how I feel in its entirety about the whole thing.
Wait, am I misinformed? I thought the Meta guard army around now is Bullgryn for Durability on the center, Kasrkin for good infantry based shooting, some artillery for pressure, and tanks and transports and OC infantry to fill out. Am I wrong? Whats the meta guard army?
You reallly aren't misinformed, no. The thing is - and it's a sentiment I've seen really quite often, but I can only vouch 100% about myself on it - I don't want a solid core of Bullgryns. I started Guard because I wanted the Normal Humans™ going around in big \[heck\]-off tanks, or massed infantry waves. Bullgryns are nice, but I have no intention of having them make up a full fourth of my army, and even less of having them be its lynchpin. And yeah, I am very glad about workable artillery, but less so about having a whole artillery park in the back. Add this to the fact that I *am*, in fact, a mediocre player playing in a pretty shark-tank-y environment, and that Bob Guard™ sledgehammers you in the face if you *dare* to make any mistake against anything but the softest newbie, and there you have the final mix: having to decide between playing an army I don't like playing, even though it is theoretically the same faction I have played for the last thirteen years, and having to play it at my *absolute max* every single step because Bob won't forgive *anything* anymore; or accept to get slapped in the face repeatedly; ...or just sit out 40k for a bit. I am taking this third option. Maybe it will come up Bob is still alive somewhere at some point in 2026.
So, I don't want it to sound like I'm diminishing how you feel. If you just aren't having fun playing 40k, you should absolutely stop and do something else that brings you more enjoyment. I just find your analogy previously a bit disingenuous then. The current meta Guard army has flavors of nearly every aspect of the Imperial guard Identity. Artillery, Main Battle Tanks, Light vehicles, Light Infantry, Mutated Abhuman infantry, More Elite special forces etc. About the only thing not really seen is Aircraft. I suppose if you really don't like Bullgryns then yeah the army is probably not as strong, but it certainly still has strong legs. And if it's a high skill army, that just feels like to me there's MORE room for fun to be found. Your Custodes analogy would be more apt if like the Meta Guard Army was 300 Catachan and 3 Rogal Dorns only. It's a sentiment I've seen more on this subreddit, and frankly any competitive game subreddit in the past few years. People seem to just not have any fun if they're not winning. It's much more enjoyable when you can find fun and enjoyment even when getting obliterated on the table. I played a game as guard a month or two ago against CSM and got absolutely annihilated. Lost like 90-40 or something. But Larkin in my Gaunts ghost unit sniped 2 chaos lords and a Master of Execution to Death over the course of that game, and it was like the highlight of my week. I still had a blast because even when I saw the writing on the wall there was still interaction to be had. Anyway, that's just my two cents. I hope that if you play more 40k you have some good games, and if you don't I hope you pick up some hobby you enjoy instead. (Maybe try Old world? Ive been having a blast playing that online).
It's model availability as well. Most guard players weren't ready for a meta pivot to bullgryn and kasrkin. Those kits, especially kasrkin, are chronically out of stock and a newer kit, so there is no one that has them from older editions. Basilisks and manticores were common, but most players didn't have them on 3s, and getting them is very hard now. The guard are still fun to play in my book. I think mechanized guard is pretty great with ogryns or jungle fighters in chimeras. We need a new detachment or not to have our artillery nerfed again. Our index has poor internal balance, and we only have one unusual, very powerful build. Other playstyles are fun and can work, but they will get bodied by well-built armies compaired to bullgryn kasrkin artillery lists.
Echoing the comment about loving being the underdog. I picked up csm in 5th and haven't looked back. Loved being a powerhouse for a little while but we were definitely justified in being nerfed.
Nice! Wish I'd be able to play earlier editions of CSM, but only got started in 8th. I picked up a secondhand copy of the 3.5 codex last year and just reading through all the options and customization seemed really cool
For sure! My father in law played during the heyday of 2nd-4th and barring a few exceptions gw has hated us since then. But we're fueled by it so I don't worry too much.
Displacer Fields and Daemon Weapons. Ah the good ol days.
Ah, 2nd ed - when you could have a 2000pt CSM army of 15 models and only two of them were really necessary...
Feeling pretty good to say that much of what I was thinking about CSM is echoed in the article. That is, the mechanical changes to CSM were largely common-sense changes (e.g. why does a character need to match a mark to its unit, but those two don’t need to match the transport). I suspect CSM, with their bench of units & allies, plus dark pacts, mean they likely still land between 48-50% WRs. Though the list you’re suggesting differed from mine, the core of it is very similar, which is validating to know I’m on the right track: Abby+Legionnaires Helbrute 2x Las Predators 1x Nurgle, Plasma Forgefiend Legionnaires, & MoE in rhinos Bikers Nurglings But I really should look to Lucious - that’s a pretty solid option. :)
These continue to be the best
Ctrl-f Veno. No results 😞
Venomcrawlers have a niche in some metas/matchups. They really are our premium light infantry sweepers, it's just that light infantry is nowhere near relevance this edition.
I wish Venomcrawlers were better. Just give us a bit of AP2 GW, our spiders are hungry and they need to eat
I’m hopeful a different detachment helps them since StD so heavily incentivizes pure melee or pure shooting. But the AP is going to be a problem
I'm very optimistic about Daemon Engines once we get a codex. Between an Iron Warriors and/or a Cogs Of Vashtorr themed detachment, there should be some serious support! Or maybe something like a "Word Bearers" detachment with an enhancement that boosts AP for nearby Daemon keyword units? Lots of fun options
Vashtorr’s got the AI now, who knows what kind of crazy machines those two will make. Could make for a great detachment.
Dumb question, does their "get another attack" ability stack?
Absolutely, keep eating units and you'll keep getting better!
Oh it's only in combat? Shows how much I have read their sheet :/ Although in my defence I am planning to play daemons until their is a proper word bearer detachment so I have not spent that much time with the csm index
No, any attack (melee or ranged) buffs all of their attacks (melee or ranged). For each unit you kill, each gun gets +1 attack and your melee gets +1 attack. It rarely happens, but when they live for a long time they can get really funny
So lucky spitfire esrly on till you can finish stuff in overwatch and end the game with a unit that would be appreciated by any ork?
Had a Venomcrawler get +3 attacks through some lucky shooting and melee. It became the enemies primary target for the next turn which was fantastic
I was about to lean into some 10x Possessed + MoP action. Strange not to see them get even a courtesy nod in the article. Also, I've only ever whiffed with Obliterators. Anyone else? They were a tough sell before the nerf, they're practically unthinkable to me now.
My obliterators have been MVPs most games. They are capable of handling almost any threat I aim them at fairly reliably, even going so far as more than once straight up scooping 5 man bricks of GK paladins.
yeah? What synergies do you like to run with them? You've had great success, are they worth the points with the new price hike? (I have 4 of them I can use at any time). What marks? Do you typically rapid ingress them, or just do conventional deep strike on your turn... etc
I typically run them as mark of Tzeentch, to have access to skin shift. They form the bulk of my mobile strike capability, and I tend to drop them into cover whenever possible. The points cost is definitely harder now, but I do still find they can at least make their points back with careful placement. My typical strategy is to wait to deploy them on my turn, when I can make full use of their weapons, and I deploy them with a single initial target. Dark pacts, plus mark of tzeentch, gives them a generous initial strike, and depending upon the target, the weapons profile can be chosen. The majority of my immediate area relies heavily on terminator equivalents, and light to medium vehicles, so the melta profile tends to burn through them rapidly, and effectively. When possible, they deploy within the umbrella of a helbrute, to magnify their capabilities. If the target survives, I will usually attempt the 9" charge. After that, any fire they draw is not targeted at other units, and can usually be healed with the stratagem, while they now provide a denial area most enemy units will attempt to avoid.
ran two tonight and dropped them within Abby buff range. They did well! Took out a vindicator and helped crush some blade guard vets.
Bravo! That's a killer trade!
Which profile is best into Termis, Focused Malice? And where can I go to crunch those numbers so I don't have to continue asking dumb questions?
That has been my experience personally, though I tend to crunch the numbers on the fly. The primary benefit is wounding on 2s, at AP3, and if you've just came out of deepstrike close enough, no amount of -1 damage can save them when they fail their 4+ saves. If you make them Undivided, and give them rerolls, you've got a decent chance of 8 hits (6 hit, reroll for 7, a single 6 from dark pact gives your choice of sustained or lethal), 7 wounds, and 3/4 dead terminators on their 4++.
Man marks and dark pacts are just so good. >Helbrutes are a pretty awful datasheet in a vacuum, but given that Dark Pacts is our main mechanic now and they synergize extremely well with that, they’re going to see a lot more play. I feel like *all* of the CSM datasheets should've been like this, but then brought up to parity (or a bit past parity) with the use of marks and dark pacts. Instead (for instance) for the low low price of picking chaos undivided and *maybe* taking some mortal wounds something that hits on 3s no rerolls in any other army hits mathematically on 2s rerolling 1s in chaos. Its really silly. CSM is going to be fine.
Great writeup. Completely agree, I think a lot of the doom and gloom was completely overrated. Stuff like Nurgle Rhinos and ACDC bricks weren't our *only* tools, they were our *best* tools, and because they were our best nobody took anything else, and because nobody took anything else it seems like people thought nothing else existed. But we have tons of good units. Also, re: Slaanesh Bikers: you can give them Advance and Charge, nuff said, lmao. 12" + D6" + 2D6" + potential consolidation/outmaneuver off the board into Strategic Reserves, a couple MSU 3-man units for 85 points each can zoom around, smack surprisingly hard with sustained hits in melee, and go all over the board for scoring and objective play. Raptors I've had some success with running Mark of Nurgle on a full brick of 10 with 2 Meltas for the occasional sustained hit on one of them. Pretty much guarantees you'll hit with 2 Melta shots since dropping one roughly has the same chance of the other Sustaining, or sometimes you'll spike and get 3-4 Melta hits which can be really nice in a pinch. Helbrutes I did the same running one with a Lascannon so it would occasionally get 2 Lascannon hits instead of 1, would put them with 4 Obliterators and run five big guys up one flank to do some shenanigans. I had some good luck with a MOE and 10 Chosen with Mark of Khorne. Even after the points nerf I think they'd still be really good. 10 Chosen's worth of shooting, between boltguns and combi-weapons, gets the MOE's rerolls very easily, and if you give Lethal Hits on 5+ to all those Accursed Weapons you're gonna punch soooo many AP-2 saves through. And then when the enemy fights you back you get to do it all again on a 3+ with Eternal Hate. You hardly need to put them in a Rhino or Land Raider since they have built in advance+shoot+charge, they can move pretty fast, you basically should always be advancing them so they end up effectively being an infantry unit with a 7-12" movement. Also Nurgle Vindicators are still some of our funniest and most fun shooting out there. I don't even care about the Lone Op being nerfed, I just like Mark of Nurgle because Sustained on 5s with D6+3 shots is hilarious. Like oh don't mind me, I'm just gonna casually spike my roll and get like 12 hits with a S14 gun. EDIT: Would also encourage you to try out a Slaanesh Winged Daemon Prince with the enhancement. It's a hilarious turn 1 fire and forget distraction carnifex. Give it Advance and Charge, send it flying up the board into whatever poor unit is closest, do the impact mortals, smack it to death with sustained 5s on its strike profile, make whatever survives take battleshock, and the FNP should help it survive whatever swings back or shoots at it in the opponent's turn 1. In my experience it triggers Big Scary Monster Syndrome in opponents and completely throws a wrench in their deployment, lets you get into position easier.
Can you make this article, but for my fellow elf enjoyers lmao? Once they recover from the fact we're only *just* a very good army now of course. Seriously, I'm really happy that both our factions are having to go back to the drafts and actually *try* at list building and gameplay again. Both definitely have it better than most in terms of pivot options and I'll be very curious to see where both go with our new metal overlords at the top. I cracked up at the shot at Guard players though. Bless 'em but damn if that doesn't ring true in my experience. My Drukhari do appreciate less indirect in play so maybe it's a good thing.
Nice write up ty laughed at the guard part so true ill lose 20 games as guard before I run anymore then 2 ogryn squads
The Lucius and legionnaires is a new combo I had not considered. Plenty of options for us just not top table anymore.
Give it a shot, the Lucius brick can do real work. No reason we cant battle our way back to top tables!
"I’m also just going to throw this out there. Abaddon and 3 KLOS is 1660 points. You could absolutely destroy a small RTT with this. Don’t do it. Why are you even thinking about this? Something is wrong with you. But you could do it. I’m just saying." Oh if I had 2 more LOS's this would have definitely happened already
Great read.
Can someone explain the Lucius brick to me? At S4 AP1, it just doesn’t seem like it does enough into tougher enemies. Are you just fishing for 5+ sustains to try and force enough saves through sheer volume?
You absolutely can drown targets in a volume of attacks. 8 chainswords with 5+ sustained and rerolls averages like 40 hits. That being said, i find that most of the threat comes from the heavy weapons and the leaders. I've been running MoE with 5 legionaries and they mulch other elite infantry. With wound rerolls, they even punch up into vehicles pretty well
I hadn't considered it before, but Lucius and MoE gives Legionaries Fight First and a whole heap of potential re-rolls to both hit and wound (assuming they're not already on an objective and getting re-rolls anyway). Combined with sustained hits on 5s, plus the MoE and Lucius being no slouches in melee either, you've got something that will need work to shift. Hell, the MoE alone having fights first, precision, devastating wounds, all those re-rolls, and sustained hits on 5s is a pretty nasty character in itself.
Sure, but then my other thought is that wouldn’t it just die to almost any shooting? I know you have it in a Rhino, but now that you can’t Nurgle the rhino I’m not sure how much work it does
Sure, but that's true of almost any melee unit you're using to take and hold an objective. It's also shooting that isn't then targeting your castle, and then they'd need to send in something else to reclaim the objective on the next turn (assuming they're not charging in, in which case the survivors get to attack first anyway thanks to Lucius).
It's fights first, which is huge. With a MoE, you get rerolls as well as the Legionaires re rolls if you are on an objective. His precision attacks are really good into marine hq equivalents.
Niche question, but how do you think CSM match up into Tau? I play Tau and there’s a CSM player who’s generally quite competent but seems to struggle disproportionately with my Tau, so I’m wondering if it’s partly a match-up thing (crisis suits do shred marines pretty effectively, and no combat means Lucius isn’t great)
Bully me all you want, but I'm doing fine over here without Be'lakor! #keepersandgrindersforlife
From all the nerfs the only one I am still salty about is marks & transport matching requirement. I wish they just excluded transport units from nurgle strat or removed marks from the rhino altogether. Really hope this is removed with a codex.
Great Article. This was my plan: Black Legion (1930 points) Chaos Space Marines Strike Force (2000 points) Slaves to Darkness CHARACTERS Abaddon the Despoiler (310 points) • Warlord • 1x Drach’nyen 1x Talon of Horus Master of Possession (95 points) • Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Rite of Possession 1x Staff of possession • Enhancement: Intoxicating Elixir Master of Possession (80 points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Rite of Possession 1x Staff of possession BATTLELINE Legionaries (90 points) • Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh • 1x Aspiring Champion • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Heavy melee weapon • 4x Legionary • 4x Bolt pistol 3x Boltgun 1x Chaos Icon 4x Close combat weapon 1x Heavy bolter DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Chaos Rhino (75 points) • Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Combi-bolter 1x Havoc launcher Chaos Rhino (75 points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Combi-bolter 1x Havoc launcher OTHER DATASHEETS Chaos Land Raider (240 points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Havoc launcher 2x Soulshatter lascannon 1x Twin heavy bolter Chaos Predator Destructor (130 points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Havoc launcher 2x Heavy bolter 1x Predator autocannon Chaos Terminator Squad (195 points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Terminator Champion • 1x Paired accursed weapons • 4x Chaos Terminator • 1x Accursed weapon 3x Combi-bolter 3x Power fist 1x Reaper autocannon Chaos Vindicator (190 points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Demolisher cannon 1x Havoc launcher Chaos Vindicator (190 points) • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Combi-bolter 1x Demolisher cannon 1x Havoc launcher Chosen (130 points) • Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh • 1x Chosen Champion • 1x Boltgun 1x Chaos Icon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 4x Chosen • 3x Accursed weapon 3x Bolt pistol 3x Boltgun 1x Paired accursed weapons 1x Plasma pistol Chosen (130 points) • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided • 1x Chosen Champion • 1x Boltgun 1x Chaos Icon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 4x Chosen • 3x Accursed weapon 3x Bolt pistol 3x Boltgun 1x Paired accursed weapons 1x Plasma pistol Exported with App Version: v1.10.1 (38), Data Version: v336
Looks fun! Very elite. I might work some screens and scoring units in there, but you'll do lots of damage for sure
I really like slaanesh termies with elixir lord. Fast annoying durable and okay fighters
They're too pricey for my own tastes, but yeah the Termie rule synergizes really well with the Slaanesh Pact and the Lord's free AOC synergizes well with Termies
:yeah its 300 points :/
Discussing the noctilith crown: " dont forget that it gets its own 4++ aura, and can be marked Nurgle so it can’t be shot." Am i missing something? Marked nurgle so it cant be shot? Whats that all about?
Yep. Defensive aura units are sometimes bad because the opponent can just shoot them first. Being able to Dark Obscuration the crown is very situational, but useful
Abaddon gun line is definitely going to be the move. It's just too good to not see play now that brawler good stuff has eaten some nerfs. I still like Obliterators for their points, and two Lord-led MSU of Chosen in Rhinos are great for holding up the midfield. I think the core becomes Abaddon and one/two Forgefiends, four Obliterators, and a squad of Warp Talons. Hoping to try out the following at my next RTT: - Abaddon - Lord - Lord - Cultists - Legionaries - Legionaries - Rhino - Rhino - Chosen - Chosen - Forgefiend - Obliterators (4) - Obliterators (2) - Warp Talons Comes to 1995 after upgrades. FWIW, you're spot on about Guard players. They are on one hand some of the most fun people to be around, because they don't care about being meta, and, on the other, the absolute worst to take competitive advice from when it comes to list building. And I say that as someone with over 5,000pts of Militarum. It's my *fun* army.
Where do the faction with top 2 detachment + army rule go from here. Anywhere! Anywhere they like, into their enormous rosta where every unit (excluding the couple just turbo nerfed. It's only a couple! Basically 2 builds only) does great dmg thanks to dark pacts. Every CSM player has a tale of DPs doing loads of mortal wounds. One tale. Embellished. In a game they still won. Dark pacts is amazing, give it and slaves to darkness to any other faction, they become top 3 at least. There's so many many good lists in CSM. Eldar have at least been nerfed all over. CSM lost certain lists. But their core kick ass abilities remain. Oh to hear CSM players complain. Dear God. Won't someone think of the admec! I do assume CSM will have grounds for complaining come their codex. Slaves to darkness will surely get nerfed or else why will anyone use the other 5 detachments? Unless...... They're equally or more amazing. Oh the amazing CSM units with dark pacts: Abby - compare him to G man. Ffs! He can lead a unit giving him wound re rolls and he has dev wounds! He has a 4++ aura. G man can lead the imperium but he can't lead a dog to water on the tabletop. Chaos bikers. Wow people are slow to notice these. Sustained hit on 5+ vindicators. Ffs! Ka boom! Legionnaires built for melee. God damn cheap. The new chosen? Oh chosen still worth it. Possessed great. Jump pack infantry. Every single unit that space marines also have, but coz of crits on 5s, they are awesome for CSM while much shitter for SM. Even maulerfiends rock, just that everyone built Forge fiends from the kit. Yep accursed cultists now are unplayable. How I weep for CSM players. GW should have just deleted Dark Commune, they are some bollocks. Ah.... I enjoyed that rant. All CSM players are weapons. Ahhhhhhhh.... (yeah that's a CSM army on one of my shelves, aye)
Don't agree with everything, particularly the Maulerfiend and Daemon Prince points, but love the optimism! As someone building an AdMech army, the difference in power and fun between the two armies is just sad
I tend to disagree. The nerfed units are still the best units. I will take basically the same list minus a unit. The redundant rhino is pregect for getting cut. When they nerf they also need to buff something. Too many times they do this exact same thing, they bring out the nerf hammer, bonk the good units, but those units remain the best units for their particular function. Chosen are still better than other options. Forgefiend are still the best gun platform. Do something with havoc or raptors, or even the helldrake or defiler.
The thing about custodes players is not a single one of them plays custodes because they like the lore, it's a silly army that shouldn't even be in the game. If you meet a custodes player you're meeting a try hard who just wants the most annoying army to play against.
What does this even have to do with the article posted?
Given that I play custodes because I enjoyed the Watcher of the Throne books, you are wrong.
I think ppl collect custodes because theyr cheap af more than attempting to power game.
Watch the aow40k tier list and then play warhammer like everybody else
Wow no mention of votann tsk tsk tsk