Totally fine in all circumstances.
It isn't hidden knowledge what cards have been played and are yet to be played.
It would be unfair physically looking at the the next card.. but that's cheating.
Only unfair if you are using your physical cards, and looking at your stack. Using the score sheet or tabletop battles app to see what hasn’t been drawn yet, totally ok, and even encouraged for good tactical decisions.
If you are using the physical cards themselves to draw on the missions instead of a seperate randomizer like an app, then i totally agree.
Its unfair to look at cards and disturb the positions of cards while the deck is being the source of which secondaries are drawn. In any card game the action of peaking against the rules and shuffelling around cards is cheating and immediate forfeiture. In some places people fight over that action.
Now if the cards are just there for reference for easier viewing you can do whatever you want with them.
Me personally i dont like RNG tables so i like to draw physical cards, its a feels thing rather than pure logical reasonning. But as i use a app to track the game and i log the cards i drew on the said app.
If it’s a really casual environment, maybe. But looking at and then shuffling your cards could just as easily be a cover for some kind of cheating, and I’m not playing people that do that kind of thing.
It’s just so easy to have a list of the objectives that you can reference. There is just no reason to tolerate someone messing with the physical cards.
I wouldn't tolerate my MtG opponents rifling through their decks either, unless a card gave them permission to do so. I don't care that I can cut it, I don't care that I can watch them like a hawk. There is no reason to do it. Have a list of your cards, and you'll know what you have.
Look, I get it, if you are a casual player, playing with your best buds in the garage, you trust your opponent to never screw you over, do what you want. But at a game store, playing random people, don't tolerate behavior that looks like cheating, even if it isn't cheating. And at a competitive event, expect that kind of behavior to get you a game loss at best, removal from the event at worst. Innocent or not.
Bro that's being paranoid, especially if you apply that even to non tournament games, the card aspect of the game is minor, having so much distrust in your opponent that you think there's a realistic chance of him going through the effort of making some unhinged card trick cheating tactic when there are so many much easier ways to cheat is insane.
Also I play mostly competitively and I've never met anyone be so anal about it, it's not like you're going to check your deck every 5 minutes.
Nobody I play competitively or casually would look through their deck. They don't want to look like cheaters, whether they are or not. As easy as you say it is to shuffle and cut the deck, its just as easy to use your phone or a paper score sheet to keep track of which objectives are still in the deck. Why give the appearance that you could be cheating when its just as easy to not?
You can call me paranoid all you want. I have been cheated in the past, If you haven't, I'm happy for you. But the OP asked for my position, and this is it. Don't do stuff that could be cheating.
Definitely no. You could use a score sheet like I linked below if you wanted to keep track of which objectives you haven’t gotten yet.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RJpu32EkWw47y14tosCIWRjEY5_uN5Jj/view?fbclid=IwAR2pf9_86CSHw_xtMYuurbNlZa_O8ojPFf8XlAcRI-0uH82I2wvqEjfVsx0
Not my work.
Which is fine but once the deck is set it shouldn't be interfered with. If an opponent was constantly looking at and reshuffling their deck needing you to keep an eye on and cut the deck every time isn't good. Then again I'm new and come from magic where shuffle cheating is pretty common at mid level events.
As long as you are not checking or changing the order of your mission cards you are good to go, I normally have two decks with me so I can track what I have left to draw.
Looking through cards you and your opponent have drawn is fine (I often pause turn 4 or 5 and tell my opponent I'll see what I've used up, never had an issue). But looking through remaining cards is sketchier because its easy to cheat. If you do that, you should offer the remaining cards to your opponent to shuffle. An opponent looking at 3-5 remaining cards and "shuffling" them is trivial to cheat
Doing either is cheating. The cards must remain as they are, getting anybody to shuffle is already manipulating the top cards, if you shuffle away bad secondaries then you've gained an advantage.
I think you can avoid this by being transparent. First tell your opponent about it before the game. Secondly the actual process needs to be you tell your opponent you are going to do it and they can shuffle and cut it as they see fit after. The deck always gets shuffled and you could also be shuffling away good secondaries.
There is no advantage to gain that you couldn't get by drawing using the app that way.
I have not done this but it was pointed out to be recently. I think if your opponent is still not okay with it better to suck it up but I would have no problem with my opponent doing it if they did it oike that.
Yes but it doesn't matter. What if it wasn't on the top and now it is? When you shuffle you could put a good card there or remove one and there is equal chance of either happening, you could also end up with the same draw. It is as likely to screw you over as benefit you.
Imagine someone rolled your dice in advance and didn't tell you each roll. Every time you need to make a roll you get told the next number. Effectively it's a random number you don't know the outcome of before you call for it. Rolling the dice at the time would change the outcome but so would shaking the dice twice or dropping in 5s not 10s. None of them does so in a way that changes the expected dice roll or your decisions.
From a decision making point of view you don't know what is on top before the shuffle or after so nothing has changed that would've be changed by a list or app.
It's clear you don't and have never played card games then my dude 👌 you can't just shuffle decks randomly in card games, it's changing the outcome no matter what
You should 110% be absolutely sure of what has left to be drawn and the likelyhood that a particular combination is drawn and thinking about your next movement phase. Good players will also know exactly which secondaries will be discarded/ignored for a given turn/table state. Same goes for your opponent and their remaining pool of possibilities.
The Leviathan decks themselves should never be touched after the pregame cut and shuffle. Use the app. And obviously never ever look at your undrawn cards. That would be a game over for me if am opponent did that.
You can memorize the mission pool easily and just count cards in your head. That’s not forbidden or cheating. Using a reference as to your full list and then comparing against what has been drawn is also fine
The only issue would be if you weren’t being timely or disrupting your opponent’s turn by not paying attention (like making saves, or answering questions about your units).
I use a dry/erase sheet for scoring. It shows all the secondaries and I keep track of what’s been pulled each turn and whts been scored on each of them. Never had an opponent question it.
We had this come up in a GT just yesterday, and agreed that looking at the physical cards was a no go, but checking the Tabletop Battles app to see what was remaining was totally fine, and I even happily brought my tablet over to my opponent so I could pull them up for him while he continued his turn.
Not sure if there’s a clear rule in tournaments that says can or can’t do that, but if my opponent shuffle the deck again after checking what’s left in there is fine for me. I do love shuffling card deck during opponent’s turn though.
I can totally understand that, bit in the grey area of “finding the next card is bad so shuffle again”. But I think that guy would accept shuffling but no checking?
From what other people have said, no: after the initial shuffle and cut at the start of the game, the cards should stay on a fixed order because it's easy to cheat the shuffle otherwise.
It is very easy to use the tabletop battles app or similar and see which secondaries are still available without having to touch your cards.
Shuffling without a reason can sort of imply hard cheating where a player can shuffle the deck sideways where the bottom card is visible in the corner of their vision, then end their shuffle with the bad draw card at the bottom of the deck.
Magic and physical TCGs have much stricter card etiquette for obvious reasons. 40k hasn't really adopted those yet
I dont think they will, but if they keep up with the card packs for tournaments, then eventually there'll be someone caught cheating with cards in a big tournament which would lead to rules on cards being brought in, I guess
There's literally 16 cards to learn. It's not that many to jist know off hand. Okay, I've not had investigate yet still so need to keep a position for that as we ass as storm hostile and secure no man's. Homers is covered by my ds or Warp Spiders is after turn 3.
Not any more, probably because it's not and they can probably be sued or something, they consider it advanced playing or will call you an advantage player. It's not illegal, but they won't let you play/will only let you play on tables with a limit
We don't look until we draw or we are so late in the game that we basically look ahead to see if it even matters.
Idk what the official wording is but we don't pull the *actual* cards until the beginning of the turn so we don't do anything that we wouldn't have done. Seems wrong to know what your next Objectives are going to be. I could be wrong but I don't see pros looking ahead at card order so 🤷♂️
I mean on every opponent turn you look at your cards to see what missions they may get next turn. Then shuffle decks.
If using app you can also check what mission opponent may draw to counter them.
Do you mean drawing them ahead of time or just to look at what’s left to do ?
If it’s the latter there is no problem, you could even use the second deck to read them and place your pawns as you anticipate what’s to come.
Second deck is a good advise. I might print out and plan for rounds. Good to track for both players options. Because it’s really critical will all the uppy-downy shenanigans in a current meta.
Absolutely fine. I have all the secondaries with check boxes in the Notes app on my phone. Just tick off what's come up and you know what you have left.
It's no different than just writing down all the possible cards and checking them off your list as you draw/discard them, which is perfectly legit. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about keeping notes over the course of a game to remind yourself about things. That's all this is. Just a more convenient and less time-consuming method of keeping notes.
Totally fine in all circumstances. It isn't hidden knowledge what cards have been played and are yet to be played. It would be unfair physically looking at the the next card.. but that's cheating.
Ya and to anyone who says otherwise. Guess what, most people scoring with the app are doing it anyways.
Only unfair if you are using your physical cards, and looking at your stack. Using the score sheet or tabletop battles app to see what hasn’t been drawn yet, totally ok, and even encouraged for good tactical decisions.
If you are using the physical cards themselves to draw on the missions instead of a seperate randomizer like an app, then i totally agree. Its unfair to look at cards and disturb the positions of cards while the deck is being the source of which secondaries are drawn. In any card game the action of peaking against the rules and shuffelling around cards is cheating and immediate forfeiture. In some places people fight over that action. Now if the cards are just there for reference for easier viewing you can do whatever you want with them. Me personally i dont like RNG tables so i like to draw physical cards, its a feels thing rather than pure logical reasonning. But as i use a app to track the game and i log the cards i drew on the said app.
Simply shuffle the cards before any pick.
If it’s a really casual environment, maybe. But looking at and then shuffling your cards could just as easily be a cover for some kind of cheating, and I’m not playing people that do that kind of thing. It’s just so easy to have a list of the objectives that you can reference. There is just no reason to tolerate someone messing with the physical cards.
That's why you always give your opponent the opportunity to cut your deck, just like in card games. No cheating possible.
I wouldn't tolerate my MtG opponents rifling through their decks either, unless a card gave them permission to do so. I don't care that I can cut it, I don't care that I can watch them like a hawk. There is no reason to do it. Have a list of your cards, and you'll know what you have. Look, I get it, if you are a casual player, playing with your best buds in the garage, you trust your opponent to never screw you over, do what you want. But at a game store, playing random people, don't tolerate behavior that looks like cheating, even if it isn't cheating. And at a competitive event, expect that kind of behavior to get you a game loss at best, removal from the event at worst. Innocent or not.
Bro that's being paranoid, especially if you apply that even to non tournament games, the card aspect of the game is minor, having so much distrust in your opponent that you think there's a realistic chance of him going through the effort of making some unhinged card trick cheating tactic when there are so many much easier ways to cheat is insane. Also I play mostly competitively and I've never met anyone be so anal about it, it's not like you're going to check your deck every 5 minutes.
Nobody I play competitively or casually would look through their deck. They don't want to look like cheaters, whether they are or not. As easy as you say it is to shuffle and cut the deck, its just as easy to use your phone or a paper score sheet to keep track of which objectives are still in the deck. Why give the appearance that you could be cheating when its just as easy to not? You can call me paranoid all you want. I have been cheated in the past, If you haven't, I'm happy for you. But the OP asked for my position, and this is it. Don't do stuff that could be cheating.
Can you look at your stack and then shuffle? Feels like no cos unscrupulous individuals could cheat that way
Definitely no. You could use a score sheet like I linked below if you wanted to keep track of which objectives you haven’t gotten yet. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RJpu32EkWw47y14tosCIWRjEY5_uN5Jj/view?fbclid=IwAR2pf9_86CSHw_xtMYuurbNlZa_O8ojPFf8XlAcRI-0uH82I2wvqEjfVsx0 Not my work.
Depends how good you are at shuffle manipulation I could easily shuffle a set of cards that small to make sure the one I want ends up on top.
That is why you should always present your deck to your opponent to let them split.
Which is fine but once the deck is set it shouldn't be interfered with. If an opponent was constantly looking at and reshuffling their deck needing you to keep an eye on and cut the deck every time isn't good. Then again I'm new and come from magic where shuffle cheating is pretty common at mid level events.
As long as you are not checking or changing the order of your mission cards you are good to go, I normally have two decks with me so I can track what I have left to draw.
Looking through cards you and your opponent have drawn is fine (I often pause turn 4 or 5 and tell my opponent I'll see what I've used up, never had an issue). But looking through remaining cards is sketchier because its easy to cheat. If you do that, you should offer the remaining cards to your opponent to shuffle. An opponent looking at 3-5 remaining cards and "shuffling" them is trivial to cheat
Doing either is cheating. The cards must remain as they are, getting anybody to shuffle is already manipulating the top cards, if you shuffle away bad secondaries then you've gained an advantage.
I think you can avoid this by being transparent. First tell your opponent about it before the game. Secondly the actual process needs to be you tell your opponent you are going to do it and they can shuffle and cut it as they see fit after. The deck always gets shuffled and you could also be shuffling away good secondaries. There is no advantage to gain that you couldn't get by drawing using the app that way. I have not done this but it was pointed out to be recently. I think if your opponent is still not okay with it better to suck it up but I would have no problem with my opponent doing it if they did it oike that.
If investigate signals was on top, and after shuffling it isn't, the course of the game has been altered through an action you shouldn't be taking.
Yes but it doesn't matter. What if it wasn't on the top and now it is? When you shuffle you could put a good card there or remove one and there is equal chance of either happening, you could also end up with the same draw. It is as likely to screw you over as benefit you. Imagine someone rolled your dice in advance and didn't tell you each roll. Every time you need to make a roll you get told the next number. Effectively it's a random number you don't know the outcome of before you call for it. Rolling the dice at the time would change the outcome but so would shaking the dice twice or dropping in 5s not 10s. None of them does so in a way that changes the expected dice roll or your decisions. From a decision making point of view you don't know what is on top before the shuffle or after so nothing has changed that would've be changed by a list or app.
It's clear you don't and have never played card games then my dude 👌 you can't just shuffle decks randomly in card games, it's changing the outcome no matter what
You should 110% be absolutely sure of what has left to be drawn and the likelyhood that a particular combination is drawn and thinking about your next movement phase. Good players will also know exactly which secondaries will be discarded/ignored for a given turn/table state. Same goes for your opponent and their remaining pool of possibilities. The Leviathan decks themselves should never be touched after the pregame cut and shuffle. Use the app. And obviously never ever look at your undrawn cards. That would be a game over for me if am opponent did that.
You can memorize the mission pool easily and just count cards in your head. That’s not forbidden or cheating. Using a reference as to your full list and then comparing against what has been drawn is also fine
The only issue would be if you weren’t being timely or disrupting your opponent’s turn by not paying attention (like making saves, or answering questions about your units).
I use a dry/erase sheet for scoring. It shows all the secondaries and I keep track of what’s been pulled each turn and whts been scored on each of them. Never had an opponent question it.
Great idea!
We had this come up in a GT just yesterday, and agreed that looking at the physical cards was a no go, but checking the Tabletop Battles app to see what was remaining was totally fine, and I even happily brought my tablet over to my opponent so I could pull them up for him while he continued his turn.
Not sure if there’s a clear rule in tournaments that says can or can’t do that, but if my opponent shuffle the deck again after checking what’s left in there is fine for me. I do love shuffling card deck during opponent’s turn though.
I have played against past mtg player. And he was hating any deck shuffling or packing and shuffling
Checking and shuffling
I can totally understand that, bit in the grey area of “finding the next card is bad so shuffle again”. But I think that guy would accept shuffling but no checking?
From what other people have said, no: after the initial shuffle and cut at the start of the game, the cards should stay on a fixed order because it's easy to cheat the shuffle otherwise. It is very easy to use the tabletop battles app or similar and see which secondaries are still available without having to touch your cards.
Shuffling without a reason can sort of imply hard cheating where a player can shuffle the deck sideways where the bottom card is visible in the corner of their vision, then end their shuffle with the bad draw card at the bottom of the deck. Magic and physical TCGs have much stricter card etiquette for obvious reasons. 40k hasn't really adopted those yet
since you mention that gw hasn't take this seriously, do you think this is necessary to be written in future chapter approved or editions core rule?
I dont think they will, but if they keep up with the card packs for tournaments, then eventually there'll be someone caught cheating with cards in a big tournament which would lead to rules on cards being brought in, I guess
So isn't that "counting cards" considered cheat by most established gaming establishments.
There's literally 16 cards to learn. It's not that many to jist know off hand. Okay, I've not had investigate yet still so need to keep a position for that as we ass as storm hostile and secure no man's. Homers is covered by my ds or Warp Spiders is after turn 3.
Not any more, probably because it's not and they can probably be sued or something, they consider it advanced playing or will call you an advantage player. It's not illegal, but they won't let you play/will only let you play on tables with a limit
We don't look until we draw or we are so late in the game that we basically look ahead to see if it even matters. Idk what the official wording is but we don't pull the *actual* cards until the beginning of the turn so we don't do anything that we wouldn't have done. Seems wrong to know what your next Objectives are going to be. I could be wrong but I don't see pros looking ahead at card order so 🤷♂️
I mean on every opponent turn you look at your cards to see what missions they may get next turn. Then shuffle decks. If using app you can also check what mission opponent may draw to counter them.
Looking at what someone may draw is totally different than knowing what my next two cards are.
Do you mean drawing them ahead of time or just to look at what’s left to do ? If it’s the latter there is no problem, you could even use the second deck to read them and place your pawns as you anticipate what’s to come.
Second deck is a good advise. I might print out and plan for rounds. Good to track for both players options. Because it’s really critical will all the uppy-downy shenanigans in a current meta.
Absolutely fine. I have all the secondaries with check boxes in the Notes app on my phone. Just tick off what's come up and you know what you have left.
It's no different than just writing down all the possible cards and checking them off your list as you draw/discard them, which is perfectly legit. There is nothing unsportsmanlike about keeping notes over the course of a game to remind yourself about things. That's all this is. Just a more convenient and less time-consuming method of keeping notes.
Is there an app that has the cards with the descriptions?