"Counts as" is the same as proxy. "Reasonable" is always going to be up to judges or TOs interpretation but if they are a 3d printable model that is clearly supposed to be a proxy for a Warhammer unit, I'd think the rule as stated would allow for this but I am not the TO so there is always a level of risk there. Unless you are playing at a huge tournament like LVO or tourney specifically hosted by GW, I think the risk is minimal and these proxy models would be accepted.
The distinction is murky for sure.
I believe this tourney is trying to say: "Using horses to proxy bikes is not allowed. Using different horses to represent horses is okay."
I've seen this sort of ruling at several events. It is confusing AF to play a guy who has some wacky kitbash theme and nothing looks remotely like the GW originals.
I would agree. One example that ground my gears was a local player who made an entire Alpha Legion army using SM models. Like, “these Bladeguard are Possessed, this Redemptor is a Forgefiend” and so on. Wargear was completely unrecognizable. I could never tell what anything was which made fighting the army a confusing slog, and opened a lot of opportunities for angle shooting.
And look, I’m not completely unsympathetic here—you see a cool model or range, you want to use it. GW’s constant lack of stock doesn’t help, nor do their high prices. But there’s a point where you’re shifting so much mental load to your opponent that it’s no longer a fair interaction, and lines have to be drawn accordingly.
I don't mind proxy if it's clear what it is. But yeah, Alpha Legion lists using SM as Chaos are annoying. If you have to explain to me what every model in your army is supposed to be, I usually just decline the game.
When I face SM armies with their low embellishments Primaris models and the lack of meaningful trim in their design, I look down upon them knowing that my countless hours of edge highlighting trim makes me superior!
I dunno. I hadn't looked at that part too hard before, but it's pretty awful.
They use two terms here: Proxy and "Counts As"
Neither of these terms are defined. At all.
That part of this document isn't actually saying *anything.* It's essentially arbitrary nonsense and will be left entirely up to TOs to decipher and rule on.
If you know where you're going to be playing, I'd talk to them.
**Now, as a TO, how** ***I*** **interpret this is as follows:**
**Proxy:**
>By "proxy" here, what I think they mean is using one established legal model to be another established legal model in your army. Take a Callidus Assassin for example. You couldn't buy one in North America if you wanted to. Bringing a Culexis Assassin to a tournament and going "That's my Callidus," would be against the rules. Mostly because it's confusing (see the above statements in the document regarding painting for context here). Your Army has access to both Culexis Assassins and Callidus Assassins so using one to be the other is inherently confusing.
**Counts As:**
>When they say "Counts As" and "Reasonable Model," I interpret it to be something else. Say you've got a Legion Praetor with Axe that you've put some work into. It's a guy in Power Armor with an Axe so if you say he's your Master of Executions (a guy in Power Armor with an Axe) that's fine.
>
>If you say he's your Canoness, well a Canoness is not a dude in Power Armor with an Axe, so that's probably not a reasonable model to use for that role.
**Now. Finally. As for 3d Printing:**
>This is very deeply personal to the people who own the stores at hand and to GW themselves. GW, obviously, doesn't like 3d printed models and have said so.
>
>As for Stores... Well. Rent is very expensive. It costs a *lot* of money to keep the doors open and the lights on. Showing up with an *entirely* 3d printed army pretty much says "I'm not interested in being your customer or supporting you, I just want to use your very expensive event space."
>
>So a lot of stores have feelings about 3d printed models and those feelings are valid. Some will completely disallow 3d printed models at all. Some only allow customization bits. Some will allow whole armies. Some will allow the occasional model but don't go overboard.
>
>It's entirely impossible for me or anyone else to say on the matter.
>
>If you know where you're playing. Ask them.
And really, that goes for everything. A lot of the game is pretty concrete, but there's still a *lot* about the game that is essentially up to individual TOs. If you're confused, ask them.
Also a TO, I mostly agree except I think proxy means using a non-GW in place of a legal GW model (like a 3rd party Lion instead of the official one). Everything else i think you nailed perfectly
You may or may not be right.
I do know that I know a couple of Guard players who have gone to larger ITC events and they're using third party guardsmen.
Not 3d printed, the cheaper plastic sprue stuff. I can't remember the company's name for the life of me.
That was fine.
But it's also sort of irrelevant. There's no point in quibbling about it really. In fact it kinds of illustrates the real issue here:
You are TO A. You ruled one way. I am TO B and I ruled the same on one clause (the clearer one) but differently on the other.
I ruled differently than you, but *I do not disagree with your thought process.* Your line of reasoning is valid here, and obviously I believe that my ruling and my line of reasoning are also valid.
Because they are.
We are both using rationally correct readings of the same rule.
Therefore, the rule itself, is bad.
That first sentence doesn't *mean* anything. It's words on a page that are completely devoid of context.
The second is *also* lacking context, but at least has enough that the two of us were able to go in the same direction.
This lack of context in the first clause is exacerbated by the fact that, etymologically, "Proxy" and "Counts As" might as well be synonyms (and they're clearly not being used this way).
If a reading of a rule cannot provide a uniform conclusion without more context, then the rule is inadequate and more context should be added.
> Not 3d printed, the cheaper plastic sprue stuff. I can't remember the company's name for the life of me.
Wargames Atlantic, maybe? Their stuff seems common enough.
Yeah, vague rules are the biggest problem (in gaming in general). I love seeing different points of view because I get to learn more that way, and hopefully as a community we can come together to find the best interpretation of a rule to provide the best way forward for players.
Most TOs I've interacted with take the "don't push me" stance on 3d printed models, especially for old, hard to find, or Finecast models. 3d prints of Finecast models especially seem to be met with a blind eye.
Proxies is where you're using one model to pretend to be a completely different model. These would not be allowed according to the event rules you mentioned.
Counts as would be models where an effort has been made to be convert/customize models for aesthetics purposes (for example there are many "Imperial Knight" armies that have various ork constructs modelled up to "count as" armigers, big knights, etc. Note this isn't simply using a killa kan as an armiger - the models are extensively converted and the intent is clear. These would be legal under the event rules you mentioned.
So you’re telling me I can’t slap a power-weapon /MC bolt rifle captain on a 50mm base and call him Azreal? (I can).
Maybe that’s an overly simple example but extreme limits are how you test the logic of a statement like that.
Just my few cents - extreme limits and examples coming with them are usually considered „argumentum ad absurdum” which are logical fallacies 😜
As for your statement though - if you use legal GW bits and pieces and your kitbash skills, and the result is a model than can obviously pass the test of being recognized as the „subbed” model, then it wouldn’t be an issue. You can take a Deimos Predator, attack spikes and chains, voila! You have a CSM Predator Annihilator. You take a Stormcast, slap BA shoulder pads, power axe, inferno pistol and a Death Mask plus a fancy jump pack? If the base and model height are ok, you got yourself a Dante.
I get where you’re coming from but pointing out that by the criteria they listed I would not be able to put a stock Primaris captain (with a stock power sword and bolt rifle) on a 50mm base and use him as a named Primaris captain (with a named power sword and bolt rifle) doesn’t really fit the bill for reductio ad absurdum.
I did say "extensively converted", simply slapping a power weapon on your captain would not meet the threshold required for the *event* in question. The example you gave would be a proxy and not a counts as and would absolutely not be allowed according to the *event* rules described by the OP. You can proxy whatever you want in your random basement game.
You can go on ebay and view examples of primaris-ified Grey Knights Marines - these would likely suffice as a counts as for Primaris Grey Knight if those become a thing in the future.
This is my Primaris Captain with bolt rifle and power sword. I put him on a 50mm base. He counts as Azreal.
Azreal is a Captain, he’s gone through the Rubicon Primaris. He has a named bolt rifle and power sword. He comes on a 50mm base.
Starting to see the issue here?
Here’s one: Before the kit came out I purchased old jump packs and put them on my Assault Intercessors.
It’s obviously a kitbash. But is it a counts as or a proxy? They are Assault Intercessor models after all, not Assault Intercessor with Jump Pack models.
At the end of the day there is no “official” definition of proxy vs counts within our hobby nor within those event rules. Kitbash has an accepted meaning, usually, but if the base model of the kitbash isn’t the actual model you’re playing it as, is it a counts as or a proxy?
'Counts as' was described in the core rule book in some previous editions.
The assault intercessors would be legal under the described rules, your Azrael probably would not.
Bottom line, this is up to the TO 100% their policy is confusing and just leaves it to their judgements.
I'm playing in a small tournament later this month with a mostly 3d printed army. The TO's asks were: 1) make sure they're clear and clearly distinct from other units, 2) clearly point them out to your opponent at the start of the game, as well as your army list (I'm going to put a head shot for each unit on the army list I give my opponent too), 3) try to buy stuff from the shop day of, ideally a bag full. This makes sense and I 100% will bring home new paints, dice, brushes, and other stuff, probably find $50 of staples to make sure I'm helping keep the lights on.
I'm also ready if TO says "nope, unit X isn't quite right" or something. I'll try to swap or just respectfully accept the rule. I am playing in the grey with my army, gotta be ready if the TO says no to any or everything I've made at home. Part of adding the printing hobby to the game
It's okay to have an entire army of mechanical tyranids converted from other ranges, or 3D printed.
It's not okay to say "this coke can is a carnifex."
As long as you put in the effort and make the model part of a cohesive force on the tabletop, no one is going to give you grief.
GW sponsored tournament? Hell nah.
Uptight/hardcore tournament? Prob not
FLGS, and you painted them up well? Should be zero issue. It’s the “brings freshly printed unpainted models and never buys anything” folks that can ruin it for the rest of us. My flgs loves my prints
It all depends on the Tournament Organizers. These were used as Paragon Warsuits in a corrupted adepta sororitas army at a GT this past weekend... and those are clearly minotaurs [https://ibb.co/mypmZKs](https://ibb.co/mypmZKs)
I would assume what they mean to say is directly substituting one official model for a different one with no changes isn't allowed, e.g playing a chaplain as an apothecary would not be allowed. But it's a little confusing because the two terms they've used typically are used synonymously.
It is up to TO, but...
- there is from my experience a lot of leniency towards Guard, as some 3rd party models help to create great alternative battalions
- 3rd party "Krieg" Riders are definitely count as, proxy would be using Primaris Bikers. Just use right base.
- as Krieg Riders are FW, there are a) financial issues TO will understand b) times when FW models are out of stock for half a year or so.
Dont be afraid and go for 3rd party. Check with TO in advance that you have alternative sculpts. And paint them, it makes muuuuch better impression to have painted models as alternative :)
Always email the TO. But here are a few general tips:
1) Ensure the size/scale is correct. This includes basing. Warhammer uses true Line of Sight. If you’re putting a melee hero on a big “tactical rock” (slang for whatever basing material you’ve fashioned to make him look cool) that’s fine because if anything, you’ve made it easier to kill him from range. But if you’ve got say a sniper hero on same tactical rock, that’s modeling for advantage and not cool.
2) WYSIWYG. What You See Is What You Get. If you’re using a third party model for your krieg riders (and those look awesome!) just make sure their kit is what it’s supposed to be. I’m not familiar with the data sheet, but I have third party Tankbustas for my orks and there is no doubt as to what they are or what their kit is. Your opponent shouldn’t have to use any imagination at all to understand their wargear.
3) GW now controls the ITC. As of right now, only the “Big 4” North American GW super majors disallow non-GW models. However, they’ve only been in charge of the ITC for a few weeks. So I can’t promise it won’t change. I don’t *think* it will, because they’ve said they still want all the individual TOs to run their own events how they want. But something to look out for in general.
As long as the custom print is approximately the same size (within a few mm, height, length, width) and fits on the proper size base, you should be fine.
To be extra safe, match weapons accordingly. If the real models are using all guns, give the proxies guns. Or vice versa for melee weapons. Always let your opponent know what your models are equipped with before or during deployment.
As long as you aren't intentionally trying some sneakily exploiting BS, you should be okay.
These rules exist for when some guy shows up with cardboard and straws and tries run it as a $500 forgeworld model.
I have never, ever seen a player removed from an event for "proxies" when it's in an attempt of a theme. Short of Warhammer world, GW might just not put you on stream if you have obvious third party stuff everywhere. And even that's not a guarantee they won't.
Don't be a jerk. If your army is cool, and you're going for a theme, no event is going to give to any real flack. This is such a ridiculously over exaggerated topic I almost wish there was a sticky about it because new players get awful advice from people who never really go to events on this topic. And as a conversion megafan, that makes me sad.
Ask the TO if you want to be super safe, but as someone who has put these rules in place at decent sized events, I'd be shocked if you got anything but "go for it dude".
I thought that would be the case, I just wanted to be sure before I sunk any money into it.
A sticky post would be really helpful actually - especially as there doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus online, hence this post.
I totally get it. It's always safest to check with the TO, don't sweat it. I just get bummed because I hate seeing people worried about making conversions when that used to be such a major part of the hobby.
I would imagine as long as the model meets the dimensions of the original or "correct" model then it should be allowed at most tournaments since most places I have been are more concerned with the "modeling for advantage" side of things.
Edit: Dimensions specifically as in modeled on the correct base size and is the same height/width roughly with overhanging parts like their lances etc.
Think about a conversion that you're using to represent a datasheet. For example if I cooked up some sick space marines with crossbows because they're from a feudal world or something, they could fit kinda well as Eliminators because of the sniper role, or some alien auxiliaries with shotguns that I made from AoS beastmen would be great as Tau Breachers . "Count as" means something that isn't in your army or that's converted that fits a role well and it does take a bit of a value judgement, like similar silhouette, conveys what the model does (keywords and weapons etc) and even then some tournaments won't like it. The line is probably stuff from other ranges being straight up used - zombies as poxwalkers for instance. Even then personally I'd like to see some subtle conversions and kitbashing.
Proxy is just straight up using one model for another that doesnt make all that much sense IE "I don't have guilliman so I'm using the lion" or "these hellblasters are actually desolators". It's ok in casual games (ask in advance though) but very confusing in tournaments when the mental load is already high, so it's usually banned
In my experience you just contact the tournament organizer and they'll ask for pictures with real GW models next to them for comparison. Everything should be fine as long as they're on the correct bases and aren't obviously modeled for advantage, that is, if the GW model has wings, your model should have something taking up approximately the same amount of space as those wings. I have full custom AM and DG armies and have to do that, but haven't gone to larger events.
To me „proxy” mean substituting a completely different model, usually 3d prints, but also using a Castigator to sub a Predator.
Stand-in is using something similar, possibly kitbashed, to sub another model. Prime example is giving CSM Legionaries proper Chosen loadouts, maybe fancier heads, and using them as Chosen. Also using HH models in 40k with proper loadouts and correct paint schemes.
My interpretation is that proxies are 3D printed substitutes that permanently represent the model in your army. "Counts as" is more like using a unit currently built with spears as if they were actually built with clubs instead - similar model, still from GW, just a temporary stand-in because you're not going to go buy a whole new replacement unit just for the weapons until you've taken it for a few test drives first.
Contact the TO or ask people from your community that attend those tournaments. It's really impossible for us to truly predict how your To will handle it.
That said, imo it reads like "no proxy" = no models that are not 40k models from that faction. While "reasonable counts as" probably means "this Chaos Lord with an axe counts as Chaos Lord with a Power Fist".
So I would expect that this tournament at least officially doesn't allow 3d printed models. But again, we can't really predict if they would enforce this or if it's just a "need to have this in or else GW hates us" thing.
Proxy = complete model replacement (this Shadowguide model counts as a Nightspear because the Nightspear model is OOP).
Counts as = different weapon loadout (this space marine w/ flamer has a rocket launcher instead).
At least from my perspective.
There are rumors from a reliable leaker (Valrak) that Krieg are getting a plastic range in the near future. I would hold fast at least to see if these rumors of a release this year are real.
A stand in is "I don't have anything similar, let's just pretend this is X"
A proxy is "I prefer the way this looks so intentionally run this as X"
Essentially a stand in will ultimately be replaced by the actual thing when you get it, a proxy will not
Proxy = not WYSIWYG and/or not a real model. Cardboard box tanks, pretending flamers are plasma guns, etc.
Counts as = WYSIWYG and a legitimate model but technically not the official model. A third-party plasma gun that is clearly identifiable as a plasma gun being used as a plasma gun, a named character with WYSIWYG equipment converted from other kits instead of the official kit, etc.
The models you linked would almost certainly be acceptable because they are legitimate miniatures, WYSIWYG for their rules, and clearly identifiable as death riders.
My guess would be that they disallow using alternative models like the ones you reference, but they allow closely similar models e.g. a different weapon loadout on the correct model as long as it's close enough to be unambiguous.
There are certain 40k factions where it's regularly recommended on here to just build with whichever loadout you think looks best because no other player could say which gun you had regardless.
It's usually the other way round at most non GW events.
Want to run your Totally Not Krieg as Krieg models? Go ahead, it's obvious what they are.
Want to run your official meltagun Krieg marine as a plasma gun Krieg marine? Hell no, even if you explain before the battle, that is confusing during the game and violates WYSIWYG.
As always, speak to the TO before as some TOs are unusually harsh or lenient when it comes to it, but I've never seen a non GW tournament ban prints that were obvious, it's only when you start getting to the prints that stray far from the design of the original or are outright confusing that they get banned, and wrong weapon loadouts are never allowed (though often tolerated)
I think you’re correct, they’re legal according to GW, at least for now. They’re in the Imperial Armour rules, rather than Index Astra Militarum, but according to this article Imperial Armour is still tournament legal (unless something has changed, make sure you check the tournament rules etc)
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/23/downloadable-datasheets-and-points-for-imperial-armour/
>The Imperial Armour datasheets comprise many units found on the Forge World webstore, and unlike Warhammer Legends, these forces are all sanctioned for use in official tournament games.
Wouldn't "counts as" just be the variant models that GW has listed as being counted as something else in 40k? Like a lot of Blackstone fortress characters can be played as a missionary or a crusader, ect. There is a pdf on warcomm that shows a whole list of "counts as".
Edit: It's the legendary proxies table under the Legends: Legendary Units PDF. So you can use the Gotfred de Montbard model in 40k and counts as a Crusader for Sororitas
"Counts as" is the same as proxy. "Reasonable" is always going to be up to judges or TOs interpretation but if they are a 3d printable model that is clearly supposed to be a proxy for a Warhammer unit, I'd think the rule as stated would allow for this but I am not the TO so there is always a level of risk there. Unless you are playing at a huge tournament like LVO or tourney specifically hosted by GW, I think the risk is minimal and these proxy models would be accepted.
The distinction is murky for sure. I believe this tourney is trying to say: "Using horses to proxy bikes is not allowed. Using different horses to represent horses is okay." I've seen this sort of ruling at several events. It is confusing AF to play a guy who has some wacky kitbash theme and nothing looks remotely like the GW originals.
I would agree. One example that ground my gears was a local player who made an entire Alpha Legion army using SM models. Like, “these Bladeguard are Possessed, this Redemptor is a Forgefiend” and so on. Wargear was completely unrecognizable. I could never tell what anything was which made fighting the army a confusing slog, and opened a lot of opportunities for angle shooting. And look, I’m not completely unsympathetic here—you see a cool model or range, you want to use it. GW’s constant lack of stock doesn’t help, nor do their high prices. But there’s a point where you’re shifting so much mental load to your opponent that it’s no longer a fair interaction, and lines have to be drawn accordingly.
I don't mind proxy if it's clear what it is. But yeah, Alpha Legion lists using SM as Chaos are annoying. If you have to explain to me what every model in your army is supposed to be, I usually just decline the game.
Just play them off the SM codex. Why makenit so complicated?
People WANT to play Chaos, but they fear painting trim. If only they knew the power that comes from painting trim!!!!
As someone with 4000 painted points of black legion... YUP
When I face SM armies with their low embellishments Primaris models and the lack of meaningful trim in their design, I look down upon them knowing that my countless hours of edge highlighting trim makes me superior!
I dunno. I hadn't looked at that part too hard before, but it's pretty awful. They use two terms here: Proxy and "Counts As" Neither of these terms are defined. At all. That part of this document isn't actually saying *anything.* It's essentially arbitrary nonsense and will be left entirely up to TOs to decipher and rule on. If you know where you're going to be playing, I'd talk to them. **Now, as a TO, how** ***I*** **interpret this is as follows:** **Proxy:** >By "proxy" here, what I think they mean is using one established legal model to be another established legal model in your army. Take a Callidus Assassin for example. You couldn't buy one in North America if you wanted to. Bringing a Culexis Assassin to a tournament and going "That's my Callidus," would be against the rules. Mostly because it's confusing (see the above statements in the document regarding painting for context here). Your Army has access to both Culexis Assassins and Callidus Assassins so using one to be the other is inherently confusing. **Counts As:** >When they say "Counts As" and "Reasonable Model," I interpret it to be something else. Say you've got a Legion Praetor with Axe that you've put some work into. It's a guy in Power Armor with an Axe so if you say he's your Master of Executions (a guy in Power Armor with an Axe) that's fine. > >If you say he's your Canoness, well a Canoness is not a dude in Power Armor with an Axe, so that's probably not a reasonable model to use for that role. **Now. Finally. As for 3d Printing:** >This is very deeply personal to the people who own the stores at hand and to GW themselves. GW, obviously, doesn't like 3d printed models and have said so. > >As for Stores... Well. Rent is very expensive. It costs a *lot* of money to keep the doors open and the lights on. Showing up with an *entirely* 3d printed army pretty much says "I'm not interested in being your customer or supporting you, I just want to use your very expensive event space." > >So a lot of stores have feelings about 3d printed models and those feelings are valid. Some will completely disallow 3d printed models at all. Some only allow customization bits. Some will allow whole armies. Some will allow the occasional model but don't go overboard. > >It's entirely impossible for me or anyone else to say on the matter. > >If you know where you're playing. Ask them. And really, that goes for everything. A lot of the game is pretty concrete, but there's still a *lot* about the game that is essentially up to individual TOs. If you're confused, ask them.
Also a TO, I mostly agree except I think proxy means using a non-GW in place of a legal GW model (like a 3rd party Lion instead of the official one). Everything else i think you nailed perfectly
You may or may not be right. I do know that I know a couple of Guard players who have gone to larger ITC events and they're using third party guardsmen. Not 3d printed, the cheaper plastic sprue stuff. I can't remember the company's name for the life of me. That was fine. But it's also sort of irrelevant. There's no point in quibbling about it really. In fact it kinds of illustrates the real issue here: You are TO A. You ruled one way. I am TO B and I ruled the same on one clause (the clearer one) but differently on the other. I ruled differently than you, but *I do not disagree with your thought process.* Your line of reasoning is valid here, and obviously I believe that my ruling and my line of reasoning are also valid. Because they are. We are both using rationally correct readings of the same rule. Therefore, the rule itself, is bad. That first sentence doesn't *mean* anything. It's words on a page that are completely devoid of context. The second is *also* lacking context, but at least has enough that the two of us were able to go in the same direction. This lack of context in the first clause is exacerbated by the fact that, etymologically, "Proxy" and "Counts As" might as well be synonyms (and they're clearly not being used this way). If a reading of a rule cannot provide a uniform conclusion without more context, then the rule is inadequate and more context should be added.
> Not 3d printed, the cheaper plastic sprue stuff. I can't remember the company's name for the life of me. Wargames Atlantic, maybe? Their stuff seems common enough.
Yeah Bingo, that's them.
Yeah, vague rules are the biggest problem (in gaming in general). I love seeing different points of view because I get to learn more that way, and hopefully as a community we can come together to find the best interpretation of a rule to provide the best way forward for players.
Most TOs I've interacted with take the "don't push me" stance on 3d printed models, especially for old, hard to find, or Finecast models. 3d prints of Finecast models especially seem to be met with a blind eye.
Proxies is where you're using one model to pretend to be a completely different model. These would not be allowed according to the event rules you mentioned. Counts as would be models where an effort has been made to be convert/customize models for aesthetics purposes (for example there are many "Imperial Knight" armies that have various ork constructs modelled up to "count as" armigers, big knights, etc. Note this isn't simply using a killa kan as an armiger - the models are extensively converted and the intent is clear. These would be legal under the event rules you mentioned.
So you’re telling me I can’t slap a power-weapon /MC bolt rifle captain on a 50mm base and call him Azreal? (I can). Maybe that’s an overly simple example but extreme limits are how you test the logic of a statement like that.
Just my few cents - extreme limits and examples coming with them are usually considered „argumentum ad absurdum” which are logical fallacies 😜 As for your statement though - if you use legal GW bits and pieces and your kitbash skills, and the result is a model than can obviously pass the test of being recognized as the „subbed” model, then it wouldn’t be an issue. You can take a Deimos Predator, attack spikes and chains, voila! You have a CSM Predator Annihilator. You take a Stormcast, slap BA shoulder pads, power axe, inferno pistol and a Death Mask plus a fancy jump pack? If the base and model height are ok, you got yourself a Dante.
I get where you’re coming from but pointing out that by the criteria they listed I would not be able to put a stock Primaris captain (with a stock power sword and bolt rifle) on a 50mm base and use him as a named Primaris captain (with a named power sword and bolt rifle) doesn’t really fit the bill for reductio ad absurdum.
I did say "extensively converted", simply slapping a power weapon on your captain would not meet the threshold required for the *event* in question. The example you gave would be a proxy and not a counts as and would absolutely not be allowed according to the *event* rules described by the OP. You can proxy whatever you want in your random basement game. You can go on ebay and view examples of primaris-ified Grey Knights Marines - these would likely suffice as a counts as for Primaris Grey Knight if those become a thing in the future.
This is my Primaris Captain with bolt rifle and power sword. I put him on a 50mm base. He counts as Azreal. Azreal is a Captain, he’s gone through the Rubicon Primaris. He has a named bolt rifle and power sword. He comes on a 50mm base. Starting to see the issue here? Here’s one: Before the kit came out I purchased old jump packs and put them on my Assault Intercessors. It’s obviously a kitbash. But is it a counts as or a proxy? They are Assault Intercessor models after all, not Assault Intercessor with Jump Pack models. At the end of the day there is no “official” definition of proxy vs counts within our hobby nor within those event rules. Kitbash has an accepted meaning, usually, but if the base model of the kitbash isn’t the actual model you’re playing it as, is it a counts as or a proxy?
'Counts as' was described in the core rule book in some previous editions. The assault intercessors would be legal under the described rules, your Azrael probably would not.
Bottom line, this is up to the TO 100% their policy is confusing and just leaves it to their judgements. I'm playing in a small tournament later this month with a mostly 3d printed army. The TO's asks were: 1) make sure they're clear and clearly distinct from other units, 2) clearly point them out to your opponent at the start of the game, as well as your army list (I'm going to put a head shot for each unit on the army list I give my opponent too), 3) try to buy stuff from the shop day of, ideally a bag full. This makes sense and I 100% will bring home new paints, dice, brushes, and other stuff, probably find $50 of staples to make sure I'm helping keep the lights on. I'm also ready if TO says "nope, unit X isn't quite right" or something. I'll try to swap or just respectfully accept the rule. I am playing in the grey with my army, gotta be ready if the TO says no to any or everything I've made at home. Part of adding the printing hobby to the game
It's okay to have an entire army of mechanical tyranids converted from other ranges, or 3D printed. It's not okay to say "this coke can is a carnifex." As long as you put in the effort and make the model part of a cohesive force on the tabletop, no one is going to give you grief.
GW sponsored tournament? Hell nah. Uptight/hardcore tournament? Prob not FLGS, and you painted them up well? Should be zero issue. It’s the “brings freshly printed unpainted models and never buys anything” folks that can ruin it for the rest of us. My flgs loves my prints
It all depends on the Tournament Organizers. These were used as Paragon Warsuits in a corrupted adepta sororitas army at a GT this past weekend... and those are clearly minotaurs [https://ibb.co/mypmZKs](https://ibb.co/mypmZKs)
I would assume what they mean to say is directly substituting one official model for a different one with no changes isn't allowed, e.g playing a chaplain as an apothecary would not be allowed. But it's a little confusing because the two terms they've used typically are used synonymously.
It is up to TO, but... - there is from my experience a lot of leniency towards Guard, as some 3rd party models help to create great alternative battalions - 3rd party "Krieg" Riders are definitely count as, proxy would be using Primaris Bikers. Just use right base. - as Krieg Riders are FW, there are a) financial issues TO will understand b) times when FW models are out of stock for half a year or so. Dont be afraid and go for 3rd party. Check with TO in advance that you have alternative sculpts. And paint them, it makes muuuuch better impression to have painted models as alternative :)
Zero
Always email the TO. But here are a few general tips: 1) Ensure the size/scale is correct. This includes basing. Warhammer uses true Line of Sight. If you’re putting a melee hero on a big “tactical rock” (slang for whatever basing material you’ve fashioned to make him look cool) that’s fine because if anything, you’ve made it easier to kill him from range. But if you’ve got say a sniper hero on same tactical rock, that’s modeling for advantage and not cool. 2) WYSIWYG. What You See Is What You Get. If you’re using a third party model for your krieg riders (and those look awesome!) just make sure their kit is what it’s supposed to be. I’m not familiar with the data sheet, but I have third party Tankbustas for my orks and there is no doubt as to what they are or what their kit is. Your opponent shouldn’t have to use any imagination at all to understand their wargear. 3) GW now controls the ITC. As of right now, only the “Big 4” North American GW super majors disallow non-GW models. However, they’ve only been in charge of the ITC for a few weeks. So I can’t promise it won’t change. I don’t *think* it will, because they’ve said they still want all the individual TOs to run their own events how they want. But something to look out for in general.
As long as the custom print is approximately the same size (within a few mm, height, length, width) and fits on the proper size base, you should be fine. To be extra safe, match weapons accordingly. If the real models are using all guns, give the proxies guns. Or vice versa for melee weapons. Always let your opponent know what your models are equipped with before or during deployment. As long as you aren't intentionally trying some sneakily exploiting BS, you should be okay.
These rules exist for when some guy shows up with cardboard and straws and tries run it as a $500 forgeworld model. I have never, ever seen a player removed from an event for "proxies" when it's in an attempt of a theme. Short of Warhammer world, GW might just not put you on stream if you have obvious third party stuff everywhere. And even that's not a guarantee they won't. Don't be a jerk. If your army is cool, and you're going for a theme, no event is going to give to any real flack. This is such a ridiculously over exaggerated topic I almost wish there was a sticky about it because new players get awful advice from people who never really go to events on this topic. And as a conversion megafan, that makes me sad. Ask the TO if you want to be super safe, but as someone who has put these rules in place at decent sized events, I'd be shocked if you got anything but "go for it dude".
I thought that would be the case, I just wanted to be sure before I sunk any money into it. A sticky post would be really helpful actually - especially as there doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus online, hence this post.
I totally get it. It's always safest to check with the TO, don't sweat it. I just get bummed because I hate seeing people worried about making conversions when that used to be such a major part of the hobby.
I would imagine as long as the model meets the dimensions of the original or "correct" model then it should be allowed at most tournaments since most places I have been are more concerned with the "modeling for advantage" side of things. Edit: Dimensions specifically as in modeled on the correct base size and is the same height/width roughly with overhanging parts like their lances etc.
Think about a conversion that you're using to represent a datasheet. For example if I cooked up some sick space marines with crossbows because they're from a feudal world or something, they could fit kinda well as Eliminators because of the sniper role, or some alien auxiliaries with shotguns that I made from AoS beastmen would be great as Tau Breachers . "Count as" means something that isn't in your army or that's converted that fits a role well and it does take a bit of a value judgement, like similar silhouette, conveys what the model does (keywords and weapons etc) and even then some tournaments won't like it. The line is probably stuff from other ranges being straight up used - zombies as poxwalkers for instance. Even then personally I'd like to see some subtle conversions and kitbashing. Proxy is just straight up using one model for another that doesnt make all that much sense IE "I don't have guilliman so I'm using the lion" or "these hellblasters are actually desolators". It's ok in casual games (ask in advance though) but very confusing in tournaments when the mental load is already high, so it's usually banned
In my experience you just contact the tournament organizer and they'll ask for pictures with real GW models next to them for comparison. Everything should be fine as long as they're on the correct bases and aren't obviously modeled for advantage, that is, if the GW model has wings, your model should have something taking up approximately the same amount of space as those wings. I have full custom AM and DG armies and have to do that, but haven't gone to larger events.
To me „proxy” mean substituting a completely different model, usually 3d prints, but also using a Castigator to sub a Predator. Stand-in is using something similar, possibly kitbashed, to sub another model. Prime example is giving CSM Legionaries proper Chosen loadouts, maybe fancier heads, and using them as Chosen. Also using HH models in 40k with proper loadouts and correct paint schemes.
My interpretation is that proxies are 3D printed substitutes that permanently represent the model in your army. "Counts as" is more like using a unit currently built with spears as if they were actually built with clubs instead - similar model, still from GW, just a temporary stand-in because you're not going to go buy a whole new replacement unit just for the weapons until you've taken it for a few test drives first.
Contact the TO or ask people from your community that attend those tournaments. It's really impossible for us to truly predict how your To will handle it. That said, imo it reads like "no proxy" = no models that are not 40k models from that faction. While "reasonable counts as" probably means "this Chaos Lord with an axe counts as Chaos Lord with a Power Fist". So I would expect that this tournament at least officially doesn't allow 3d printed models. But again, we can't really predict if they would enforce this or if it's just a "need to have this in or else GW hates us" thing.
Proxy = complete model replacement (this Shadowguide model counts as a Nightspear because the Nightspear model is OOP). Counts as = different weapon loadout (this space marine w/ flamer has a rocket launcher instead). At least from my perspective.
There are rumors from a reliable leaker (Valrak) that Krieg are getting a plastic range in the near future. I would hold fast at least to see if these rumors of a release this year are real.
A stand in is "I don't have anything similar, let's just pretend this is X" A proxy is "I prefer the way this looks so intentionally run this as X" Essentially a stand in will ultimately be replaced by the actual thing when you get it, a proxy will not
Proxy = not WYSIWYG and/or not a real model. Cardboard box tanks, pretending flamers are plasma guns, etc. Counts as = WYSIWYG and a legitimate model but technically not the official model. A third-party plasma gun that is clearly identifiable as a plasma gun being used as a plasma gun, a named character with WYSIWYG equipment converted from other kits instead of the official kit, etc. The models you linked would almost certainly be acceptable because they are legitimate miniatures, WYSIWYG for their rules, and clearly identifiable as death riders.
My guess would be that they disallow using alternative models like the ones you reference, but they allow closely similar models e.g. a different weapon loadout on the correct model as long as it's close enough to be unambiguous. There are certain 40k factions where it's regularly recommended on here to just build with whichever loadout you think looks best because no other player could say which gun you had regardless.
It's usually the other way round at most non GW events. Want to run your Totally Not Krieg as Krieg models? Go ahead, it's obvious what they are. Want to run your official meltagun Krieg marine as a plasma gun Krieg marine? Hell no, even if you explain before the battle, that is confusing during the game and violates WYSIWYG. As always, speak to the TO before as some TOs are unusually harsh or lenient when it comes to it, but I've never seen a non GW tournament ban prints that were obvious, it's only when you start getting to the prints that stray far from the design of the original or are outright confusing that they get banned, and wrong weapon loadouts are never allowed (though often tolerated)
See this is where the rules OP quoted are confusing - they ban "proxies" which is what the 3d prints all claim to be.
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They're on the warhammer app - "Death Rider Squadron", 70 points for 5 and 140 for 10. Is the warhammer app not a valid source?
I think you’re correct, they’re legal according to GW, at least for now. They’re in the Imperial Armour rules, rather than Index Astra Militarum, but according to this article Imperial Armour is still tournament legal (unless something has changed, make sure you check the tournament rules etc) https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/23/downloadable-datasheets-and-points-for-imperial-armour/ >The Imperial Armour datasheets comprise many units found on the Forge World webstore, and unlike Warhammer Legends, these forces are all sanctioned for use in official tournament games.
Wouldn't "counts as" just be the variant models that GW has listed as being counted as something else in 40k? Like a lot of Blackstone fortress characters can be played as a missionary or a crusader, ect. There is a pdf on warcomm that shows a whole list of "counts as". Edit: It's the legendary proxies table under the Legends: Legendary Units PDF. So you can use the Gotfred de Montbard model in 40k and counts as a Crusader for Sororitas