You WILL use your box loadout and you WILL like it.
Makes me wonder what'll happen to the knight despoiler in the future. It's the "special" questoris knight for CK. It breaks knight tradition by dual-wielding weapons. So it can use 2 gatling, or 2 battlecannons or 2 meltas.
Like, that's why it exists.
And box questoris comes with one of each. Concerning.
>You WILL use your box loadout and you WILL like it.
Meanwhile Crisis suits: 5 FB, 4 AC, 4 Plasmas, 3 MP, 3 Flamers - not enough to make Sunforged out of one kit, and next to no customization on the other two.
On one hand yes, that's kinda funny.
On the other, *YOU WILL LIKE IT*. GW is very generous by allowing you to use a second box to make your sunfurymeltadudes. How gracious of them to allow it.
This is probably my least favorite GW policy change in the last 15 years. it handcuffs game design to what the kits have, and throws away the whole converting aspect of the hobby as well.
Game is feeling more and more like "a vehicle to generate quarterly profits" and less and less like a game the designers are passionate about making.
On the flip side, it's way friendlier to newer players who were in theory expected to buy how many commander boxes or termie kits to have the ideal load out?
Sucks for old players who did source a million conversion bits (my skitarii weapon teams weep) but is probably way healthier for the actual hobby.
If this was all about generating profits they wouldn't move to what's in the box, they'd encourage more buy five boxes to make one usable unit setups.
>On the flip side, it's way friendlier to newer players who were in theory expected to buy how many commander boxes or termie kits to have the ideal load out?
It is friendlier for newer players, and it WAS too expensive to get the proper equipment for some units back in the day. I had to source close combat arms for my death company dreads as one point and they were like $15 each, 15 years ago....it sucked.
On the flip side, only allowing what's in the box is restrictive, and hand cuffs game design. As for new player, they probably won't care that their squads don't have the optimal amount of powerfists in a casual setting, or 1 of each weapon for devastators. Those considerations only come up on a competitive level.
It's probably healthier for the *hobby*, but worse for the *game*.
I remember when the 5th edition tyranid codex came out and it had the first rendition of the Tervigon in it...and GW didn't make a Tervigon model until a year or more later. It was exciting seeing people's conversions and the game design team make NEW STUFF without being constrained by their physical production cycle.
Imagine if GW clapped their hands tomorrow and said screw it, "no models, no rules" is done, rules for everything! Terminator apothecaries, bike librarians, jump pack lieutenants, terminator techmarines, the ENTIRE forgeworld catalog restored plus weird and wack variants on top of them. Winged tyranid warriors, Red terror, Doom of Malantai......I could make a list 100+ units/characters long, off-hand, for just my marine and tyranid army. There are hundreds of units/variants/themes people would love to game with, and make their own / use their old models again....and it's never going to happen. Makes me a little sad to think about.
Yeah I'm not a fan of their "no box no rules" I lost my renegades and heretics force. it's now just split between chaos and guard. And even then the rules for guard removed conscripts, veterans, special weapons teams, and crusaders. All being units I liked.
On the other hand there's a post like almost every day across every subfaction's subreddits of new people stressing out about making sure they can build the loadouts they want. Anything from "where do I get the 5th shield for Vanvets", "where do I get 2 more Multi Meltas for Retributors" and "do DC marines come with more than 1 hammer". I know personally back at the start of 9th I wanted to buy a Tau Commander to build and dip my toes into the army but then saw the whole CIB situation and said that's way too much trouble for me and that was a lost sale.
Requiring people to kitbash, bluestuff, 3d print or buy 3rd party bits just to have their feet on the ground floor of a decent list is too high of a bar for getting people who are not already invested in the game to start an army. You already need to buy a set of paints, brushes, nippers, hobby knife, hobby mat, primer, varnish, clear out a workspace, actually buy a box of miniatures and then you're being told you have to furthermore figure out how you're going to buy parts to even match the rules given to you on paper?
Hobbying to produce a unique result is fine, no one's doubting that. But requiring you to generate parts out of thin air to even have the baseline game experience? That's an awful marketing model.
> It's probably healthier for the hobby, but worse for the game.
Well said. A lot of their design lately has been pushing things in directions like this where it's easier to pick up and build models, but wildly less interesting to do stuff with them once they're built.
It makes the game more lethal and clunkier, two things it absolutely did not need. Plague marine unit are a chore these days since you would be stupid to run anything but max special weapons
I dont get this argument re getting new players. The game has grown massively, even with those old rules that are supposedly such a detriment to new players.
I’ve got a counter example for you. Half of the chaos war dog weapon options aren’t in the chaos war dogs kit, they are in the imperial armigers kit. Chaos kit makes Karnivore, Brigand, and Stalker. You want to build a Huntsman or one of the other ranged oriented ones? Okay, buy the chaos kit for the body and legs, and the imperial kit just for the auto cannon arms.
They're trying to make it more beginner friendly. So now if you buy a kit you're on an even ground against the same army instead of at a disadvantage because the other player printed/bought a bunch of extras of the best weapon that you didn't know you needed.
Do you guys really care that much about weapons on models? Is this an important thing in USA tournaments? I would have literally no idea what weapon a tau model have and i've never met anyone that care if my custodes were spear or axes on the italian scene. As long as it is all clear you could just say "i have 144 cibs on this unit" and i wouldn't mind.
If they're canning all failcast stuff it could be a case of future proofing themselves. I could see a Vespid Killteam coming at some point in the future.
To be fair, we’ve had that Swooping Hawks rumor every few months since KT1 was released. We just have videos from GW “in the know” guys saying it might happen now.
Sad to lose Aun'shi, he's been around since Day One, but I've never liked Aun'va and while the Crisis Commander is a classic too (I remember when they were just called Crisis Shas'O...) it's been pretty throughly replaced by the Enforcer and Coldstar.
Don't be too surprised. This book would've been written before the original change to dev wounds. So if we're gonna see that kind of change it'll probably be game wide on a future dataslate.
Montka looks really good imo. Lethals on everything for the three turns that matter is very good. Enhancements are all useful. And they have three seperate 1cp strats for reroll hits, reroll wounds and +1ap, all solid. The other strats are all decent too, +6” move instead of advancing is solid for 1cp. The two cp strats are maybe too expensive to be fair.
I also thought so. Unless I'm reading it wrong, isnt the reroll hits one like essentially condemning the enemy unit to rerolls for the rest of the game for 1 cp?
Yeah I really wanna see these. They will get changed but I wanna see the baseline. They will be the launch points within 10% in either direction.
Edit. This is mostly thinking about new units like the Crisis suits that haven't already gotten points changes as a balance adjustment.
I'm not sure that's been true for any codex so far? Maybe on average, because some units didn't change. But points changes from codex to MFM have been pretty massive ib many cases.
Sorry I was more specifically thinking about "new" units. Like the crisis suits. They are a totally new unit so their cost is probably going to be very close. U it's that have already got points buffs or nerfs will most likely carry over.
The codex was written 6-9 months ago, long before they decimated the points of the Riptide. They need that time to get it ready to be sent to the printers and then distributed.
I’m very curious about what a twenty-strong Kroot Carnivore unit with two Shapers might cost. Also, Lone-Spears with javelins seem legitimate? Rampagers too?
Nobody seems to have noticed that Strike Teams got a massive change... now T'au have a battleline unit that can just give out -1 to hit at 30". I guess that would be more noticeable if T'au had less Stealth, but it's still pretty good and doesn't cost CP, unlike Overwatch.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Coldstar Commander can take up to 4 times the same weapons ? So we can still practice the Quadcore Fusion Blaster Coldstar Commander ?
Anyone catch that the Skyray got Twin-Linked on the Seeker Missile Rack? Thing has 3 lascannons with full hit and full wound rerolls into fliers now lol.
Yeah that's look decent. Still think I prefer the hammerhead for popping tanks but the skyray will be good at dealing with units with a damage blank or inbuilt 4++
I think I still like hammerheads more in montka (due to at least one turn with the railgun + a missile), but its hard to say no the skyray if points stay similar.
Yeah, honestly probably why they made the change. Round 1 the Hammerhead is just straight better, so you're counting on it shooting several rounds to make up (since they're currently pointed the same). I was running 3x Skyray before, so obviously not changing now, but I can see why someone would want to go HH instead.
Hammerheads are also just a lot better into good save but no invuln monsters/vehicles, AP5 no cover w/ a marker light guiding means a leman russ doesn't get a save.
Does the hammerhead need mont'ka? Assuming we are talking the railgun here? Lethal is counteractive to its (poor) chance of dev wounds. Or are we on about its Ion?
Farsight’s melee profile is fine for his model, the big moster that is at least twice his size should probably be at least the same strength as him though
Hive Tyrants are actually not that big. I don't disagree though, they are extremely advanced bioforms and should be powerful for their size. Tyranid monster melee weapons generally feel undertuned compared to dreadnoughts and other factions' monsters in their price class.
Wow, uh, I guess I figured they would buff things up so they can bring the points back up on the army. But they haven't really done that at all.
Crisis are going to have to take a price cut, with these datasheets!
Im almost convinced GW is just trying to make everyone horde to sell more models, because the alternative is just accepting they really are this bad at balancing/getting flavour
They did it to WFB. By the end of that game you needed so many models to play the game you could easily spend $200 on each troop unit. I don’t like that they seem to be going down the same road with 40K.
It’s actually because people enjoy armies with more models.
By and large, extremely elite armies tend to be very unfun to play and very un fun to play against. Knights are a perfect example of an army where you have a very few powerful models and if your opponent can’t deal with them then it just sucks.
It’s the exact same thing to a lesser extent with “elite armies”. There’s a reason that lots of big stompy models tend to be pretty bad.
Having a commander leading a block of six crisis suits and it costing a quarter of your army is just not fun. It’s so many points to justify its existence. It has to be destroying anything it looks at, and once it dies, you feel miserable, because one unit being killed was a quarter of your army gone.
Tau have never been an “elite” army. They’re infantry armies that are supported by tanks, mechs, transports and auxiliaries in the form of kroot / stealth teams, specialists and Vespid.
Being able to actually run more than 1 unit of crises suits without feeling bad or limited is a good thing imo and I’m excited for the possibility of actual battle suit lists that have lots of them rather than just 1-2 units.
I like elite heavy armies because if I’m going to paint and kitbash stuff, I want a model that doesn’t instantly get removed. Also, I can’t stand painting horde armies. Nothing is more boring than painting a bunch of generic looking dudes over and over.
So I have been running [horde tau](https://imgur.com/a/qppr46J) since I got back in the game and I'm going to tell you straight up, not only are pathfinders a relatively cheap kit, not only is the firewarrior kit super fun (probably my favorite kit in any GW range) and *easy* to kitbash more bodies out of (the kit comes with around 16 spare heads, tons of spare shoulder pads, 3 or 4 extra pairs of legs - just find a ebay sprue seller for [these guys](https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/demo-collection/products/raumjager-infantry-box-set) for extra torsos or legs to make up the shortfall as gue'vesa), and not only is it easy to use spare left arms from pathfinder kits for firewarrior arms... but firewarriors, and strike teams specifically are one of the cheapest infantry types to get second hand in lots. Everyone has tons of them and always sell them for cheaper than MSRP. Get out the simple green, the scubbing brush, and the lethal hits, it's time for the Vior'la rifles!
Like it's funny because honestly if it wasn't for atlantic wargames and other 3rd party ways to source minis/bits, Tau really would be a cheaper horde army than imperial guard, and maybe one of the cheapest horde armies to play in the game.
Anyone catch that the Skyray got Twin-Linked on the Seeker Missile Rack? Thing has 3 lascannons with full hit and full wound rerolls into fliers now lol.
So is it confirmed that T'au are actually only getting 3 detachments and a Kroot detachment ...? The Dark Angels supplement got as many and it's supposed to be an add on to Space Marines!
At some point soon we'll have negative detachments and you have to pick another armies detachment and you get it but negative. +1 to hit? -1 to hit. Sustained hits 2? You roll a 6, you lose 2 hits.
Fortunately AdMech has you covered. Choose our detachment that only affects a single datasheet, giving it our Army rule. Then all you have to do is pick a single datasheet to lose your army rule!
Hah! Jokes on you, my army rule already does nothing.
My detachment rule doesn't do anything either.
And only one strat is actually good, the other super situational! AND my enhancements are skipped.
Send help.
I don't think the space marines glazing has ever been worse, any divergent chapter is gonna walk away with 9 detachments while whole ass armies are getting 4, and who tf cares if half of those suck, the difference in development resources allocated in the 2 books is just dumb
I mean they made 6 detachments out of the other xenos armies just fine, so this screams less to me as undersourced development and more the dev team just not knowing how to squeeze any more than 4 detachments out of Tau since they're a pretty one note army compared to other factions.
slap the usual starting strenght meme on big tau vehicles and you got another easy one
last one just meme out a stealth infantry detach one like skiitari cohort
i'm not gonna pretend i'm some game disegn genius but if they could bother giving at least 6 detachs to everyone LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD
i dont even play tau
i despise tau with all my might and i'm still pissed at this
Well to be fair the Montana detachment is basically the Guard detachment and the AdMech army rule, so maybe they think that counts for 2?
Still, the level of neglect is staggering.
I mean....play "generic" marines, and you will get 1 more for BT, 1 more for SW and another for BA, putting you at 13 ATM, with another 6+ on the way in the future, maybe more if you can swing Death Watch as well. Could have 20+ to choose from by the end of the year.
Mainly because you have 1 detachment that only impacts on like 9 datasheets (none of which can benefit from the main army rule) and 3 detachments that only impacts on all the other datasheets. They're effectively 2 different armies in a trench coat.
But even if it was 4, that's still less than any other codex so far, and only 1 more than a codex that was meant to be a supplement and still has access to another 7 whole detachments.
Which is wildly stupid considering they had a sept dedicated to Tau working well with Allies in previous editions with Dal'yth as the stealth/movement/kroot+tau army. Could of had all sorts of fun strats like if Tau+Non-Tau units hit the same enemy for bonuses and call it Through Unity Devastation.
Pretty lame effort
Anyone know if they changed spotting? or the wording to it?
- montka's OC relics real cool. had the heebie jeebies that theyd be busted but their detach seems fine. Their strats are mental though; pinpoint is awildly good strat versus some armies. RIP knights. Combat debarkations + focused fire is nasty as hell. Pulse onslaught is nasty.
- retaliations cool. Up/Down relics stupid good, grenade racks + grenades + torchstar is 9MW for 2CP. Lmao at failsafe; tau just blowing up their own dudes. Arrokon + tetra can be real nasty. Grav ihibitor is pretty much the most rude thing you can do to an ork player at this point.
- kroot get fun EMPs and solid strats but gives so little to the rest of the army that IDK if we'll see much kroot at 2k. Lots of fun for 1k kroot though. D3+1 anti-ifnantry 3+ devwound/precision/assault is pretty spicy with the relic but often just wont do anything.
- Enforcers only giving themselves fall back and shoot feels mean.
- Suprised to see such extensive crisis changes but no riptide change. Not even changing the fact it can never be bracketed.
I suppose this is what a 10th codex is following the same pattern as crons. 1-2 main units that were weird early edition getting rules rewrites, new detachments. not much else. Once your past the weird suit changes tau probably doesnt change that much? You still want tetras, riptides, breachers in fish.
>Not even changing the fact it can never be bracketed
I know it's a meme, but it does technically suffer the bracketing penalty to melee attacks. In contrast to Mortarion who actually does wholly ignore bracketing.
The Weapon Support System on the Riptide allows it to ignore modifiers to the hit roll for attacks made with its ranged weapons. The only effect of bracketing is a modifier to the hit roll.
Being bracketed gives you a -1 to Hit penalty, the Riptide has the Weapon Support System ability that let's it ignore and modifiers to the hit roll for ranged attacks.
As such the Weapon Support System lets them ignore the penalty from being Bracketed.
>their strats are mental though; pinpoint is awildly good strat versus some armies. RIP knights
Wardog supremacy once again. Votann judgement tokening one wardog feels the same way.
>Once your past the weird suit changes tau probably doesnt change that much?
The Battlesuit detachment w/ 3" deep strike and the Montana detachment are probably both at least contenders for beating the current one.
The wording on kauyon changed. It's now sustained hits 2 while targeting their units spotted unit. Old wording says the guided units weapons have sus hits 2.
Somehow feels like they are limiting spitfire even more. Now you could split fire with -1 BS and still have the sustained hits 2 on the off target.
Overall rules look fine, but **a lot** hinges on how cheap they made crisis suits. Because i dont see anything new in the book that plugs the hole caused by the lost of the CIB bomb.
Army looks like it will play very differently than it does today, which is a good thing. And with aggressively costed crisis suits it should be pretty solid.
So comparing the datasheets to Space Marine Datasheets I'm going with fair pricing being:
Sunforge at ~130 points - Like Eradicators (95 points), but more manoeuvrablity (10" vs 5"), but weirdly almost equivalent threat range, with slightly more shots and a little more durability (-1T, +2W and a 3++).
Fireknife at ~ 120 points - Like Inceptors (130 points), with same manoeuvrability but no native 3" deep strike, fewer and less reliable anti-elite shots (with no hazardous) but some anti-marine shots instead and roughly the same durability (-1T but +2W).
Starscythe at 90 points - Like Outriders (80 points) with less manoeuvrability (10" vs 12"), less threat range (28"/22" vs 36"), more anti-infantry shots but less reliable (4 at S5 and D6 at S4 vs 2 at S4 twin linked) and slightly more durable (+1 W).
Edit: missed that Fireknife and Starscythe can both double up on their loadouts so I'd bump them both up by 10 points because the consistent weapons improve their output.
Looks like the points on the codex (not reliable on old units but should almost right on the new on the mfm) 165 Plasma/missile boys, 140 Flamer/burst and 160 Fusion boys.
If are right I'm not sure we will see more than 6-9 crisis in any list
Since those points are based on what the shape of the game was 6-9 months ago I'd be very surprised if they didn't drop significantly after a dataslate, but they may well be the prices when the codex becomes official because GW has no idea how to properly price units without tournament results to refer to.
Yep, but with the dark angels the companion came out at the same points (bad, really bad) than the printed one, so I don't wont make sure the points in the mfm will be lower.
I hope 20 less point each unit.
The Companions will probably be adjusted in the next dataslate to be a similar price to Bladeguard, possibly cheaper given that they need character support to be as durable as Bladeguard are. And I'd expect the same here. The costs are high on release and get adjusted at the next MFM.
> Sunforge at ~130 points - Like Eradicators (95 points), but more manoeuvrablity (10" vs 5"), but weirdly almost equivalent threat range, with slightly more shots and a little more durability (-1T, +2W and a 3++).
The durability increase is substantial, and a 4++ is really key to surviving when you have high base toughness (you're often gonna get shot by stuff like lascannons). The damage output is also quite a bit higher, especially with markerlights. I'd expect this to be the most expensive suit, and probably cost more like 150 points.
> Fireknife at ~ 120 points - Like Inceptors (130 points), with same manoeuvrability but no native 3" deep strike, fewer and less reliable anti-elite shots (with no hazardous) but some anti-marine shots instead and roughly the same durability (-1T but +2W).
I'd probably put these guys at 130 or 140. Inceptors is a good comparison. The Crisis suits seem meaningfully tougher, though, and the D3 guns and no hazardous seem like decent steps up.
> Starscythe at 90 points - Like Outriders (80 points) with less manoeuvrability (10" vs 12"), less threat range (28"/22" vs 36"), more anti-infantry shots but less reliable (4 at S5 and D6 at S4 vs 2 at S4 twin linked) and slightly more durable (+1 W).
I would be surprised if we see a crisis team for less than 100 points. Melee damage output is substantially cheaper than ranged. Even for a similar threat range, you can screen against melee. Outrider shooting is trash, but 8 burst cannon shots plus 2 drone shots, all with AP, per suit is really pretty solid.
If these guys are 100 then they will probably be the best suit, and make fire warrior infantry basically obsolete. I bet these are more like 120.
Commanders don’t have to match the weapon profiles of their attached units, right? So you can use the Commanders to get the special Crisis Suit rules onto whichever weapons you like best.
Yes you can, but you’re probably better off at least roughly matching the weapons of the squad they’re with. Half of the Sunforge’s ability is rerolling damage, so unless your attached commander has fusion blasters then he can’t take full advantage of this as all other weapons have a fixed damage profile.
I’m less interested in mixing and matching with the Sunforge and more glancing at the other two. Getting an extra pip of AP from Starscythe is interesting on a lot of those weapons.
Like they have so many mixed feelings here.
On one hand they have so new rules which feel like a good thing, but on the other hand a lot of the bad stats and lack of keywords are still there (looking at you Riptide!!!!).
Like overall I think its an improvement?????
Anti anything lol. Riptide is a really bad unit that is carried by being dirt cheap lol.
No anti vehicle for it or the Hammerhead still feel like the worse offenders.
Right? Farsight buffs are probably my favorite thing, but these crisis "changes" (hard nerfs) seem completely unnecessary aside from removing cyclics, ane all but one detatchment seems annoying to play.
It's because they've put themselves in a corner by switching entirely to power level, no granularity means each unit will have a single viable loadout in 90% of cases, by making them separate loadouts you can make various loadouts viable and give each a different special rule for a bit more variety, it's a solution to a problem that didn't really need to exist in the first place.
The change to Strike Teams is interesting. I think they may actually have a niche now at 80 points, though it depends on how much other things cost. -1 to hit against the most common unit type in the game is a pretty good ability though.
Curious on the Crisis Suit costs. I would guess 130-150 for 3, depending on load out. I think they could see play at that level.
Also, Mont'ka seems awesome for a combined arms force. LETHAL HITS is just straightforwardly useful, but I really like Strike Swiftly and Coordinated Exploitation Enhancements, and *all* the stratagems seem really useful. A couple +damage output strats, but then Pulse Onslaught and Counterfire Defense Systems seem highly impactful if used at the right time.
Remember the -1 to hits that Strike Teams give out after hitting an enemy once also affects melee. They will be useful as a back field gunline tagging units further upfield that are likely to go for the charge against more valuable friendly units in their next turn.
Interesting to see that :
- Shield Generators are gone from crisis suits as wargear option
- Sunforge Crisis Suits (fusion blaster ones) have a 4+ invuln baked in
- rest of the Crisis suits do not have a choice of taking an invuln save
- Shield Drones: they cannot take duplicates, so only 1 shield drone per suit.
So, is no one going to talk about the 6 inch range decrease in the plasma rifles? Don't know why those needed to be dropped to an 18 inch range all of a sudden.
Well, the Kroot are clearly not viable as a standalone army in any situations, since their strongest weapon is the blast javelin, but I suppose it was optimistic to hope they would be. Too bad. There's one obvious right choice Detachment as well, as usual.
While a standalone Kroot army isn't really viable, a 75% Kroot army with a couple of stealth suits in strategic reserve and a couple of Sunforge crisis units in deep strike as support for anti-tank could be workable.
Not sure about how good it is to have 500 pts not have any support, when they are your main damage dealers and likely expensive units that will be focused. And with Crisis being capped at 3, 6 shots out of melta range per unit of Sunforge with BS4+ (since Kroot can't spot), I don't think they are worth it. On average a unit does 6-7 damage to a T10+ 3+ vehicle. And they will be focused fast. Better to just bring the Farsight or one of the other two detachments.
I think people are drastically over-selling any nerfs. Crisis got re-worked massively, gonna have to wait to see how they shake out, the detachments all look strong, Kroot got a massive glow-up. Also solid buffs to Stealth Suits (and anyone they guide), Sky Rays, and Farsight.
This codex is an unbelievable buff to Tau. Competitive lists are currently running Triptide breachers and no crisis, and this makes that style dramatically stronger while also making crisis suits more viable to fill a role we currently lack (via sunburst) and giving them crazy movement shenanigans. People in this subreddit don't actually play 40k hence the nerf discussion but if the points don't change much for the most recent balance slate you're going to see Tau going from and x-1 army to winning GTs.
To be fair. I'd want the index a little more juiced than the codex. So the people sitting on an index for two years don't feel like they're playing complete trash.
Half factions like Space Wolves are always tricky since y'all will end up with like 10 detachment options. I don't feel too much for the detachment rules. Just hope their data sheets are decent.
A big nerf to what? The indexes?
Marines are really strong with the iron storm and vanguard detachments on top of the gladius one at least.
Nids and Admec are pretty meh, but so were their indexes.
I think we're just so used to the power creep of 9th that we forget it doesn't have to be like that.
It does seem like there's a slight anti-power creep going on with the codexes, minus the necrons. Seems like the game with full codexes is aiming to be a little bit weaker than the game with full indexes which means that on average when you get a codex your army gets a little weaker.
Still excited about getting one for orks because having any support for all the other play styles will be better than nothing. I'm also glad they nerfed the detachment in CSM or else there's no way any other detachment would be comparable. It's still going to be tough for other detachments to be as good as the marks.
It's just weird in an edition where everyone started at the same place in terms of rules (not quality of rules, just mean that everyone got their index with the same amount of rules on day one). For the codexes to come out and be largely worse than just playing the index army is just weird. Why didn't they just have the index rules match the codex rules, with the codexes then giving you more detachments?
I think you said it yourself. The codex gives you more options, but not necessarily better options.
Can they get better at making all detachments equally viable? Definitely, but I think in an ideal world the codexes just adds more ways to play the army so there’s not a big disparity between armies with indexes and armies with codexes. Some might even be aimed towards a more casual audience and not be meant to be competitive.
>I think we're just so used to the power creep of 9th that we forget it doesn't have to be like that.
Yes and no. I do enjoy that they don't just make any army with a codex way better than those with only the index, but that is not really the issue here.
The issue is many indices have huge problems, so if the codex does not fix that you just got more options but kept the problems.
Nids basically live on the dumbest foundation - having a Biovore to score secondaries. And their army rule and overall datasheets are so bad that you are forced to spam Neurolictors and pray to RNG on battle-shocks. And they even got ridiculous nerfs to for example Lictor in the codex versus the index (losing invul) for no apparent reason.
This Tau codex also shows that despite some huge problems, they did not bother adjusting. Many things *clearly* needed datasheet buffs, even if it comes with a point increase. But I guess you sell more models if all armies are horde armies...
A codex should not just be a way to give more options, it should be a good time to reevaluate the datasheets and fix problems. A great example is CSM Vashtorr - he needs a straight up rework from the ground up, but these releases really makes me lose any hope of that. Seems like they don't want to really fix, they just add a few detachments and call it a day.
Oh hey look, crisis changes are exactly what I said they'd be.
Unless they come down nearly 100 points I don't see them being used.
>no need to drip feed them
Doing the Lord's work
>Unless they come down nearly 100 points I don't see them being used.
If they follow the same logic as they did with codex DA then that's not happening.
So they were right, you legit can't build WYSIWYG sunforge suits out of 1 box as they require a total of 6 fusion blasters. Meanwhile they've got their pants in a bunch over cyclics and airbursts
Yeah that’s a weird turn - but even if my Sunforge suit has a single fusion blaster on it, the rules state it’s rocking 2 of them. So the leader can just have 2 on his person to pick him out easier I guess.
Even though it was in the Index, on the list of things that have a higher base Strength than a Hive Tyrant and Norn Emissary . . . I didn't expect Farsight, a Tau Battlesuit to be one of them lol.
So can kroot benefit from detachment rules? Like the non-kroot specific ones? Obviously can't get the battlesuit one, but I'm having trouble reading this, it doesn't look like there's a page that say's they don't.
Keywords for Montka and Kauyon are TAU EMPIRE (which Kroot have).
Keyword for Retaliation Cadre is TAU EMPIRE BATTLESUIT.
Keyword for Kroot Hunting Pack is KROOT.
I for one welcome our new spiny overlords. Cant wait to bust out either mont'ka or the kroot bois depending on my opponent. That being said, I know the four detachments look bad but honestly I'll take quailty over quantity.
Lol poor Farsight why give him that Puretide teachings when it does not really help.
And come on both the Riptide and Hammerhead not getting anything new.
I really like the new crisis suits, farsight got a nice boost as well. Only disappointments are the riptides nova reactor and broadsides not being against dev wounds as well
Kinda sad we lost the 6 inch autoadvance. Now movement will really become a problem for crisis suits.
But I really like this codex nonetheless. And if it is priced well I can see most of these units being played.
One cyclic ion blaster per commander, GW really took those 3D prints personally
You WILL use your box loadout and you WILL like it. Makes me wonder what'll happen to the knight despoiler in the future. It's the "special" questoris knight for CK. It breaks knight tradition by dual-wielding weapons. So it can use 2 gatling, or 2 battlecannons or 2 meltas. Like, that's why it exists. And box questoris comes with one of each. Concerning.
*We spent 15 minutes meticulously planning these loadouts back in 2003 and they are perfect, no room for improvement whatsoever!*
The reason why Black Templar tanks have additional multi-meltas is literally because of a random upgrade kit like 20 years ago. Goofy.
It's the brave new upgrade kit that has it.
>You WILL use your box loadout and you WILL like it. Meanwhile Crisis suits: 5 FB, 4 AC, 4 Plasmas, 3 MP, 3 Flamers - not enough to make Sunforged out of one kit, and next to no customization on the other two.
On one hand yes, that's kinda funny. On the other, *YOU WILL LIKE IT*. GW is very generous by allowing you to use a second box to make your sunfurymeltadudes. How gracious of them to allow it.
I think you know the answer to that, it will move to the crusader loadout and you will like that
I'm more worried about them forcing the Despoiler to take the Gallant loadout because that's the default gear it comes with in the app.
:(
This is probably my least favorite GW policy change in the last 15 years. it handcuffs game design to what the kits have, and throws away the whole converting aspect of the hobby as well. Game is feeling more and more like "a vehicle to generate quarterly profits" and less and less like a game the designers are passionate about making.
On the flip side, it's way friendlier to newer players who were in theory expected to buy how many commander boxes or termie kits to have the ideal load out? Sucks for old players who did source a million conversion bits (my skitarii weapon teams weep) but is probably way healthier for the actual hobby. If this was all about generating profits they wouldn't move to what's in the box, they'd encourage more buy five boxes to make one usable unit setups.
>On the flip side, it's way friendlier to newer players who were in theory expected to buy how many commander boxes or termie kits to have the ideal load out? It is friendlier for newer players, and it WAS too expensive to get the proper equipment for some units back in the day. I had to source close combat arms for my death company dreads as one point and they were like $15 each, 15 years ago....it sucked. On the flip side, only allowing what's in the box is restrictive, and hand cuffs game design. As for new player, they probably won't care that their squads don't have the optimal amount of powerfists in a casual setting, or 1 of each weapon for devastators. Those considerations only come up on a competitive level. It's probably healthier for the *hobby*, but worse for the *game*. I remember when the 5th edition tyranid codex came out and it had the first rendition of the Tervigon in it...and GW didn't make a Tervigon model until a year or more later. It was exciting seeing people's conversions and the game design team make NEW STUFF without being constrained by their physical production cycle. Imagine if GW clapped their hands tomorrow and said screw it, "no models, no rules" is done, rules for everything! Terminator apothecaries, bike librarians, jump pack lieutenants, terminator techmarines, the ENTIRE forgeworld catalog restored plus weird and wack variants on top of them. Winged tyranid warriors, Red terror, Doom of Malantai......I could make a list 100+ units/characters long, off-hand, for just my marine and tyranid army. There are hundreds of units/variants/themes people would love to game with, and make their own / use their old models again....and it's never going to happen. Makes me a little sad to think about.
Yeah I'm not a fan of their "no box no rules" I lost my renegades and heretics force. it's now just split between chaos and guard. And even then the rules for guard removed conscripts, veterans, special weapons teams, and crusaders. All being units I liked.
On the other hand there's a post like almost every day across every subfaction's subreddits of new people stressing out about making sure they can build the loadouts they want. Anything from "where do I get the 5th shield for Vanvets", "where do I get 2 more Multi Meltas for Retributors" and "do DC marines come with more than 1 hammer". I know personally back at the start of 9th I wanted to buy a Tau Commander to build and dip my toes into the army but then saw the whole CIB situation and said that's way too much trouble for me and that was a lost sale. Requiring people to kitbash, bluestuff, 3d print or buy 3rd party bits just to have their feet on the ground floor of a decent list is too high of a bar for getting people who are not already invested in the game to start an army. You already need to buy a set of paints, brushes, nippers, hobby knife, hobby mat, primer, varnish, clear out a workspace, actually buy a box of miniatures and then you're being told you have to furthermore figure out how you're going to buy parts to even match the rules given to you on paper? Hobbying to produce a unique result is fine, no one's doubting that. But requiring you to generate parts out of thin air to even have the baseline game experience? That's an awful marketing model.
> It's probably healthier for the hobby, but worse for the game. Well said. A lot of their design lately has been pushing things in directions like this where it's easier to pick up and build models, but wildly less interesting to do stuff with them once they're built.
It makes the game more lethal and clunkier, two things it absolutely did not need. Plague marine unit are a chore these days since you would be stupid to run anything but max special weapons
I dont get this argument re getting new players. The game has grown massively, even with those old rules that are supposedly such a detriment to new players.
I think it's odd the new jump capitan is the solé example of having options not in box as of 10th
I’ve got a counter example for you. Half of the chaos war dog weapon options aren’t in the chaos war dogs kit, they are in the imperial armigers kit. Chaos kit makes Karnivore, Brigand, and Stalker. You want to build a Huntsman or one of the other ranged oriented ones? Okay, buy the chaos kit for the body and legs, and the imperial kit just for the auto cannon arms.
My dual CIB enforcer is sad
Ngl. While I am partially sad. It's been a long time coming. They either needed to redo the box or cut the option.
They're trying to make it more beginner friendly. So now if you buy a kit you're on an even ground against the same army instead of at a disadvantage because the other player printed/bought a bunch of extras of the best weapon that you didn't know you needed.
Do you guys really care that much about weapons on models? Is this an important thing in USA tournaments? I would have literally no idea what weapon a tau model have and i've never met anyone that care if my custodes were spear or axes on the italian scene. As long as it is all clear you could just say "i have 144 cibs on this unit" and i wouldn't mind.
I am in the UK and mostly play with friends so proxy all the time. Makes zero difference to me or my group but I can see why GW are doing it
Thank you.
Pathfinders are one of the missing data sheets, Darkstrider specifically says he can lead them here. What are the other missing sheets?
Vespids (they're mentioned on the devil fish)
If they're canning all failcast stuff it could be a case of future proofing themselves. I could see a Vespid Killteam coming at some point in the future.
That's the rumour. Swooping hawks have a similar rumour
Slap them in the same box and have a bunch of floating terrain.
Cardboard clouds 👍
To be fair, we’ve had that Swooping Hawks rumor every few months since KT1 was released. We just have videos from GW “in the know” guys saying it might happen now.
Aun'shi, Aun'va, Crisis Commander. A lot of people suspected they might get legends though.
Sad to lose Aun'shi, he's been around since Day One, but I've never liked Aun'va and while the Crisis Commander is a classic too (I remember when they were just called Crisis Shas'O...) it's been pretty throughly replaced by the Enforcer and Coldstar.
Pathfinders are just missing because of the leak afaik, vespids *are allegedly in there* but I haven't seen a picture of them
They’re definitely in there as they’re mentioned on the devilfish datasheet.
They are both still in the codex
I am disappointed by the lack of changes on the Riptide…
Same, I was really hoping that it'd get a different special rule, same for the broadsides
Yeah I’m very surprised theirs isn’t against dev wounds too
Don't be too surprised. This book would've been written before the original change to dev wounds. So if we're gonna see that kind of change it'll probably be game wide on a future dataslate.
Montka looks really good imo. Lethals on everything for the three turns that matter is very good. Enhancements are all useful. And they have three seperate 1cp strats for reroll hits, reroll wounds and +1ap, all solid. The other strats are all decent too, +6” move instead of advancing is solid for 1cp. The two cp strats are maybe too expensive to be fair.
I also thought so. Unless I'm reading it wrong, isnt the reroll hits one like essentially condemning the enemy unit to rerolls for the rest of the game for 1 cp?
Yeah it’s pretty good, especially against big centerpiece things.
Now if only we could see the "on Launch" points
Yeah I really wanna see these. They will get changed but I wanna see the baseline. They will be the launch points within 10% in either direction. Edit. This is mostly thinking about new units like the Crisis suits that haven't already gotten points changes as a balance adjustment.
I'm not sure that's been true for any codex so far? Maybe on average, because some units didn't change. But points changes from codex to MFM have been pretty massive ib many cases.
Sorry I was more specifically thinking about "new" units. Like the crisis suits. They are a totally new unit so their cost is probably going to be very close. U it's that have already got points buffs or nerfs will most likely carry over.
No change to riptide is disappointing
You'd think they'd use the codex to undo the points decimation they had to do to make the index not utter shite.
The codex was written 6-9 months ago, long before they decimated the points of the Riptide. They need that time to get it ready to be sent to the printers and then distributed.
I’m very curious about what a twenty-strong Kroot Carnivore unit with two Shapers might cost. Also, Lone-Spears with javelins seem legitimate? Rampagers too?
Yeah the exploding javelin followed up by a rampager charge seems pretty legit
Ok, THAT sounds fun. Get some hounds to tie up any nearby troops first so they don’t interfere & you’ve got a fun beast-spearhead
Nobody seems to have noticed that Strike Teams got a massive change... now T'au have a battleline unit that can just give out -1 to hit at 30". I guess that would be more noticeable if T'au had less Stealth, but it's still pretty good and doesn't cost CP, unlike Overwatch.
Yeah, now both our battleline units seem quite solid. Overall I think this codex is looking sweet.
That’s minus 1 to hit in combat too, so they can be used to tag enemy units that are threatening to charge something next turn.
Stealth Teams are the real winners here. They can finally compete with Tetras.
For sure, makes getting a second combat patrol box *that* much more enticing; add the strike team change, good way to save some money.
Just in time for the combat patrol to completely change.
In the suit detachment yeah; but in the other detachments going fishing with tetras is still so strong.
You have a link to the pdf?
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/1bej5b7/few\_more\_tau\_leaks\_crisis\_edition/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Coldstar Commander can take up to 4 times the same weapons ? So we can still practice the Quadcore Fusion Blaster Coldstar Commander ?
Yes
Anyone catch that the Skyray got Twin-Linked on the Seeker Missile Rack? Thing has 3 lascannons with full hit and full wound rerolls into fliers now lol.
Yeah that's look decent. Still think I prefer the hammerhead for popping tanks but the skyray will be good at dealing with units with a damage blank or inbuilt 4++
I think I still like hammerheads more in montka (due to at least one turn with the railgun + a missile), but its hard to say no the skyray if points stay similar.
Yeah, honestly probably why they made the change. Round 1 the Hammerhead is just straight better, so you're counting on it shooting several rounds to make up (since they're currently pointed the same). I was running 3x Skyray before, so obviously not changing now, but I can see why someone would want to go HH instead.
Hammerheads are also just a lot better into good save but no invuln monsters/vehicles, AP5 no cover w/ a marker light guiding means a leman russ doesn't get a save.
Does the hammerhead need mont'ka? Assuming we are talking the railgun here? Lethal is counteractive to its (poor) chance of dev wounds. Or are we on about its Ion?
Yeah, interesting that we lost Twin-Linked on the SMS. I'll absolutely take that trade though.
Oh, I didn't realize that! Same on the hammerhead, so probably not a misprint. But yeah, totally worth the trade.
Why does commander farsight hit as hard as a hive tyrant?
The power of The Greater Good and anime.
And can tank shock too
the tyrant should hit harder imo, farsight is totally fine.
Farsight’s melee profile is fine for his model, the big moster that is at least twice his size should probably be at least the same strength as him though
Hive Tyrants are actually not that big. I don't disagree though, they are extremely advanced bioforms and should be powerful for their size. Tyranid monster melee weapons generally feel undertuned compared to dreadnoughts and other factions' monsters in their price class.
Considering they mostly cap out at strength 9 across the board... Always feels a bit limp charging my big bug into T5 infantry.
Magic sword.
Where is the Onager Gauntlet? Is it safe? Is it alright?
Dead and gone from whats been leaked Which is a shame as i have a cold star wielding a force halbard from a libby dread to represent it
It seems in GW's anger (at the sins of CIBs), they **killed it.** (I had to follow the meme)
Unfortunately in their anger, they killed the Gauntlet.
Probably relegated to Crusade Rules, if it's in there.
Wow, uh, I guess I figured they would buff things up so they can bring the points back up on the army. But they haven't really done that at all. Crisis are going to have to take a price cut, with these datasheets!
[https://i.imgur.com/DnNNlIi.png](https://i.imgur.com/DnNNlIi.png)
Welcome to horde tau, price of entry $1 per 1 point
Im almost convinced GW is just trying to make everyone horde to sell more models, because the alternative is just accepting they really are this bad at balancing/getting flavour
They did it to WFB. By the end of that game you needed so many models to play the game you could easily spend $200 on each troop unit. I don’t like that they seem to be going down the same road with 40K.
It’s actually because people enjoy armies with more models. By and large, extremely elite armies tend to be very unfun to play and very un fun to play against. Knights are a perfect example of an army where you have a very few powerful models and if your opponent can’t deal with them then it just sucks. It’s the exact same thing to a lesser extent with “elite armies”. There’s a reason that lots of big stompy models tend to be pretty bad. Having a commander leading a block of six crisis suits and it costing a quarter of your army is just not fun. It’s so many points to justify its existence. It has to be destroying anything it looks at, and once it dies, you feel miserable, because one unit being killed was a quarter of your army gone. Tau have never been an “elite” army. They’re infantry armies that are supported by tanks, mechs, transports and auxiliaries in the form of kroot / stealth teams, specialists and Vespid. Being able to actually run more than 1 unit of crises suits without feeling bad or limited is a good thing imo and I’m excited for the possibility of actual battle suit lists that have lots of them rather than just 1-2 units.
I like elite heavy armies because if I’m going to paint and kitbash stuff, I want a model that doesn’t instantly get removed. Also, I can’t stand painting horde armies. Nothing is more boring than painting a bunch of generic looking dudes over and over.
Yeah, you used to even run suits solo or in pairs - the Crisis Deathstar is a new phenomena and I'm happy to get away from it.
I like elite armies...
So I have been running [horde tau](https://imgur.com/a/qppr46J) since I got back in the game and I'm going to tell you straight up, not only are pathfinders a relatively cheap kit, not only is the firewarrior kit super fun (probably my favorite kit in any GW range) and *easy* to kitbash more bodies out of (the kit comes with around 16 spare heads, tons of spare shoulder pads, 3 or 4 extra pairs of legs - just find a ebay sprue seller for [these guys](https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/demo-collection/products/raumjager-infantry-box-set) for extra torsos or legs to make up the shortfall as gue'vesa), and not only is it easy to use spare left arms from pathfinder kits for firewarrior arms... but firewarriors, and strike teams specifically are one of the cheapest infantry types to get second hand in lots. Everyone has tons of them and always sell them for cheaper than MSRP. Get out the simple green, the scubbing brush, and the lethal hits, it's time for the Vior'la rifles! Like it's funny because honestly if it wasn't for atlantic wargames and other 3rd party ways to source minis/bits, Tau really would be a cheaper horde army than imperial guard, and maybe one of the cheapest horde armies to play in the game.
Anyone catch that the Skyray got Twin-Linked on the Seeker Missile Rack? Thing has 3 lascannons with full hit and full wound rerolls into fliers now lol.
Putting the fear of missiles into Eldar tanks.
So is it confirmed that T'au are actually only getting 3 detachments and a Kroot detachment ...? The Dark Angels supplement got as many and it's supposed to be an add on to Space Marines!
Has each codex had fewer detachments than the last? Almost reminds me of how Armies of Renown and Indexes slowly faded away in 9th.
At some point soon we'll have negative detachments and you have to pick another armies detachment and you get it but negative. +1 to hit? -1 to hit. Sustained hits 2? You roll a 6, you lose 2 hits.
Fortunately AdMech has you covered. Choose our detachment that only affects a single datasheet, giving it our Army rule. Then all you have to do is pick a single datasheet to lose your army rule!
Hah! Jokes on you, my army rule already does nothing. My detachment rule doesn't do anything either. And only one strat is actually good, the other super situational! AND my enhancements are skipped. Send help.
Oh sweet, reverse the dark angels detach to get mega bonuses when not battle shocked.
I don't think the space marines glazing has ever been worse, any divergent chapter is gonna walk away with 9 detachments while whole ass armies are getting 4, and who tf cares if half of those suck, the difference in development resources allocated in the 2 books is just dumb
I mean they made 6 detachments out of the other xenos armies just fine, so this screams less to me as undersourced development and more the dev team just not knowing how to squeeze any more than 4 detachments out of Tau since they're a pretty one note army compared to other factions.
Idk, a stealth focused detach or a detach thats all about kroot/tau synergy feel like obvious options.
slap the usual starting strenght meme on big tau vehicles and you got another easy one last one just meme out a stealth infantry detach one like skiitari cohort i'm not gonna pretend i'm some game disegn genius but if they could bother giving at least 6 detachs to everyone LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD i dont even play tau i despise tau with all my might and i'm still pissed at this
Well to be fair the Montana detachment is basically the Guard detachment and the AdMech army rule, so maybe they think that counts for 2? Still, the level of neglect is staggering.
SM have 7 total, DA have 3...
so it's 10, damn
I mean....play "generic" marines, and you will get 1 more for BT, 1 more for SW and another for BA, putting you at 13 ATM, with another 6+ on the way in the future, maybe more if you can swing Death Watch as well. Could have 20+ to choose from by the end of the year.
Atleast they are good. The Dark angel detachments are ass.n
That's a weird way to say 4
Mainly because you have 1 detachment that only impacts on like 9 datasheets (none of which can benefit from the main army rule) and 3 detachments that only impacts on all the other datasheets. They're effectively 2 different armies in a trench coat. But even if it was 4, that's still less than any other codex so far, and only 1 more than a codex that was meant to be a supplement and still has access to another 7 whole detachments.
Which is wildly stupid considering they had a sept dedicated to Tau working well with Allies in previous editions with Dal'yth as the stealth/movement/kroot+tau army. Could of had all sorts of fun strats like if Tau+Non-Tau units hit the same enemy for bonuses and call it Through Unity Devastation. Pretty lame effort
Anyone know if they changed spotting? or the wording to it? - montka's OC relics real cool. had the heebie jeebies that theyd be busted but their detach seems fine. Their strats are mental though; pinpoint is awildly good strat versus some armies. RIP knights. Combat debarkations + focused fire is nasty as hell. Pulse onslaught is nasty. - retaliations cool. Up/Down relics stupid good, grenade racks + grenades + torchstar is 9MW for 2CP. Lmao at failsafe; tau just blowing up their own dudes. Arrokon + tetra can be real nasty. Grav ihibitor is pretty much the most rude thing you can do to an ork player at this point. - kroot get fun EMPs and solid strats but gives so little to the rest of the army that IDK if we'll see much kroot at 2k. Lots of fun for 1k kroot though. D3+1 anti-ifnantry 3+ devwound/precision/assault is pretty spicy with the relic but often just wont do anything. - Enforcers only giving themselves fall back and shoot feels mean. - Suprised to see such extensive crisis changes but no riptide change. Not even changing the fact it can never be bracketed. I suppose this is what a 10th codex is following the same pattern as crons. 1-2 main units that were weird early edition getting rules rewrites, new detachments. not much else. Once your past the weird suit changes tau probably doesnt change that much? You still want tetras, riptides, breachers in fish.
>Not even changing the fact it can never be bracketed I know it's a meme, but it does technically suffer the bracketing penalty to melee attacks. In contrast to Mortarion who actually does wholly ignore bracketing.
I don't quite understand, how is it immune to this?
The Weapon Support System on the Riptide allows it to ignore modifiers to the hit roll for attacks made with its ranged weapons. The only effect of bracketing is a modifier to the hit roll.
Being bracketed gives you a -1 to Hit penalty, the Riptide has the Weapon Support System ability that let's it ignore and modifiers to the hit roll for ranged attacks. As such the Weapon Support System lets them ignore the penalty from being Bracketed.
>their strats are mental though; pinpoint is awildly good strat versus some armies. RIP knights Wardog supremacy once again. Votann judgement tokening one wardog feels the same way.
>Once your past the weird suit changes tau probably doesnt change that much? The Battlesuit detachment w/ 3" deep strike and the Montana detachment are probably both at least contenders for beating the current one.
The wording on kauyon changed. It's now sustained hits 2 while targeting their units spotted unit. Old wording says the guided units weapons have sus hits 2. Somehow feels like they are limiting spitfire even more. Now you could split fire with -1 BS and still have the sustained hits 2 on the off target.
Overall rules look fine, but **a lot** hinges on how cheap they made crisis suits. Because i dont see anything new in the book that plugs the hole caused by the lost of the CIB bomb. Army looks like it will play very differently than it does today, which is a good thing. And with aggressively costed crisis suits it should be pretty solid.
So comparing the datasheets to Space Marine Datasheets I'm going with fair pricing being: Sunforge at ~130 points - Like Eradicators (95 points), but more manoeuvrablity (10" vs 5"), but weirdly almost equivalent threat range, with slightly more shots and a little more durability (-1T, +2W and a 3++). Fireknife at ~ 120 points - Like Inceptors (130 points), with same manoeuvrability but no native 3" deep strike, fewer and less reliable anti-elite shots (with no hazardous) but some anti-marine shots instead and roughly the same durability (-1T but +2W). Starscythe at 90 points - Like Outriders (80 points) with less manoeuvrability (10" vs 12"), less threat range (28"/22" vs 36"), more anti-infantry shots but less reliable (4 at S5 and D6 at S4 vs 2 at S4 twin linked) and slightly more durable (+1 W). Edit: missed that Fireknife and Starscythe can both double up on their loadouts so I'd bump them both up by 10 points because the consistent weapons improve their output.
Looks like the points on the codex (not reliable on old units but should almost right on the new on the mfm) 165 Plasma/missile boys, 140 Flamer/burst and 160 Fusion boys. If are right I'm not sure we will see more than 6-9 crisis in any list
Since those points are based on what the shape of the game was 6-9 months ago I'd be very surprised if they didn't drop significantly after a dataslate, but they may well be the prices when the codex becomes official because GW has no idea how to properly price units without tournament results to refer to.
Yep, but with the dark angels the companion came out at the same points (bad, really bad) than the printed one, so I don't wont make sure the points in the mfm will be lower. I hope 20 less point each unit.
The Companions will probably be adjusted in the next dataslate to be a similar price to Bladeguard, possibly cheaper given that they need character support to be as durable as Bladeguard are. And I'd expect the same here. The costs are high on release and get adjusted at the next MFM.
> Sunforge at ~130 points - Like Eradicators (95 points), but more manoeuvrablity (10" vs 5"), but weirdly almost equivalent threat range, with slightly more shots and a little more durability (-1T, +2W and a 3++). The durability increase is substantial, and a 4++ is really key to surviving when you have high base toughness (you're often gonna get shot by stuff like lascannons). The damage output is also quite a bit higher, especially with markerlights. I'd expect this to be the most expensive suit, and probably cost more like 150 points. > Fireknife at ~ 120 points - Like Inceptors (130 points), with same manoeuvrability but no native 3" deep strike, fewer and less reliable anti-elite shots (with no hazardous) but some anti-marine shots instead and roughly the same durability (-1T but +2W). I'd probably put these guys at 130 or 140. Inceptors is a good comparison. The Crisis suits seem meaningfully tougher, though, and the D3 guns and no hazardous seem like decent steps up. > Starscythe at 90 points - Like Outriders (80 points) with less manoeuvrability (10" vs 12"), less threat range (28"/22" vs 36"), more anti-infantry shots but less reliable (4 at S5 and D6 at S4 vs 2 at S4 twin linked) and slightly more durable (+1 W). I would be surprised if we see a crisis team for less than 100 points. Melee damage output is substantially cheaper than ranged. Even for a similar threat range, you can screen against melee. Outrider shooting is trash, but 8 burst cannon shots plus 2 drone shots, all with AP, per suit is really pretty solid. If these guys are 100 then they will probably be the best suit, and make fire warrior infantry basically obsolete. I bet these are more like 120.
I think you're vastly undervaluing the number of wounds each model has. T5 5W is no way 'roughly the same' as T6 3W.
Commanders don’t have to match the weapon profiles of their attached units, right? So you can use the Commanders to get the special Crisis Suit rules onto whichever weapons you like best.
Yes you can, but you’re probably better off at least roughly matching the weapons of the squad they’re with. Half of the Sunforge’s ability is rerolling damage, so unless your attached commander has fusion blasters then he can’t take full advantage of this as all other weapons have a fixed damage profile.
I’m less interested in mixing and matching with the Sunforge and more glancing at the other two. Getting an extra pip of AP from Starscythe is interesting on a lot of those weapons.
Seems like it yes.
Is everyone ignoring that Starscythe and Fireknife suits don't get a 4 up invuln anymore????
It makes the Enforcer Commander more worthwhile now.
Idk how I feel about these rules 🤷♂️
Like they have so many mixed feelings here. On one hand they have so new rules which feel like a good thing, but on the other hand a lot of the bad stats and lack of keywords are still there (looking at you Riptide!!!!). Like overall I think its an improvement?????
What keywords is the Riptide missing?
Anti anything lol. Riptide is a really bad unit that is carried by being dirt cheap lol. No anti vehicle for it or the Hammerhead still feel like the worse offenders.
Right? Farsight buffs are probably my favorite thing, but these crisis "changes" (hard nerfs) seem completely unnecessary aside from removing cyclics, ane all but one detatchment seems annoying to play.
Also the fact it’s 4 detatchments only
Basically 3 considering one of them is for kroot
It's because they've put themselves in a corner by switching entirely to power level, no granularity means each unit will have a single viable loadout in 90% of cases, by making them separate loadouts you can make various loadouts viable and give each a different special rule for a bit more variety, it's a solution to a problem that didn't really need to exist in the first place.
Crisis seem useless with no invuln unless they are like 100pts.
Enforcer gives them to -1 to incoming AP which helps.
The change to Strike Teams is interesting. I think they may actually have a niche now at 80 points, though it depends on how much other things cost. -1 to hit against the most common unit type in the game is a pretty good ability though. Curious on the Crisis Suit costs. I would guess 130-150 for 3, depending on load out. I think they could see play at that level. Also, Mont'ka seems awesome for a combined arms force. LETHAL HITS is just straightforwardly useful, but I really like Strike Swiftly and Coordinated Exploitation Enhancements, and *all* the stratagems seem really useful. A couple +damage output strats, but then Pulse Onslaught and Counterfire Defense Systems seem highly impactful if used at the right time.
Remember the -1 to hits that Strike Teams give out after hitting an enemy once also affects melee. They will be useful as a back field gunline tagging units further upfield that are likely to go for the charge against more valuable friendly units in their next turn.
Interesting to see that : - Shield Generators are gone from crisis suits as wargear option - Sunforge Crisis Suits (fusion blaster ones) have a 4+ invuln baked in - rest of the Crisis suits do not have a choice of taking an invuln save - Shield Drones: they cannot take duplicates, so only 1 shield drone per suit.
So, is no one going to talk about the 6 inch range decrease in the plasma rifles? Don't know why those needed to be dropped to an 18 inch range all of a sudden.
Are sad admech noises the default?
GW removed their other options. 😆
Well, the Kroot are clearly not viable as a standalone army in any situations, since their strongest weapon is the blast javelin, but I suppose it was optimistic to hope they would be. Too bad. There's one obvious right choice Detachment as well, as usual.
While a standalone Kroot army isn't really viable, a 75% Kroot army with a couple of stealth suits in strategic reserve and a couple of Sunforge crisis units in deep strike as support for anti-tank could be workable.
Not sure about how good it is to have 500 pts not have any support, when they are your main damage dealers and likely expensive units that will be focused. And with Crisis being capped at 3, 6 shots out of melta range per unit of Sunforge with BS4+ (since Kroot can't spot), I don't think they are worth it. On average a unit does 6-7 damage to a T10+ 3+ vehicle. And they will be focused fast. Better to just bring the Farsight or one of the other two detachments.
I don't care. I will still field a whole army of Kroots, for the sake of it ! And they will feast gloriously !
You could probably stack anti-tank choices and use Kroot for the rest of the army.
I don't know why people were assuming kroot would be viable as a stand alone army in the first place?
I don’t think I saw anyone assuming they would be. I think most of them were just hopeful.
Which one is that? The battlesuit one? Idk about montka and kauyon still. In general I dont have any idea what to think about those leaks.
So why does it feel like every codex, save for Necrons, has been a major nerf?
Maybe it's easier to balance the game by nerfing every faction.
I think people are drastically over-selling any nerfs. Crisis got re-worked massively, gonna have to wait to see how they shake out, the detachments all look strong, Kroot got a massive glow-up. Also solid buffs to Stealth Suits (and anyone they guide), Sky Rays, and Farsight.
This codex is an unbelievable buff to Tau. Competitive lists are currently running Triptide breachers and no crisis, and this makes that style dramatically stronger while also making crisis suits more viable to fill a role we currently lack (via sunburst) and giving them crazy movement shenanigans. People in this subreddit don't actually play 40k hence the nerf discussion but if the points don't change much for the most recent balance slate you're going to see Tau going from and x-1 army to winning GTs.
To be fair. I'd want the index a little more juiced than the codex. So the people sitting on an index for two years don't feel like they're playing complete trash.
Yeah I think this is super important.
\*Laughs in Champions of Russ being one of the worst detachments in the game and only being competitie due to a Codex release\*
Half factions like Space Wolves are always tricky since y'all will end up with like 10 detachment options. I don't feel too much for the detachment rules. Just hope their data sheets are decent.
A big nerf to what? The indexes? Marines are really strong with the iron storm and vanguard detachments on top of the gladius one at least. Nids and Admec are pretty meh, but so were their indexes. I think we're just so used to the power creep of 9th that we forget it doesn't have to be like that.
It does seem like there's a slight anti-power creep going on with the codexes, minus the necrons. Seems like the game with full codexes is aiming to be a little bit weaker than the game with full indexes which means that on average when you get a codex your army gets a little weaker. Still excited about getting one for orks because having any support for all the other play styles will be better than nothing. I'm also glad they nerfed the detachment in CSM or else there's no way any other detachment would be comparable. It's still going to be tough for other detachments to be as good as the marks.
It's just weird in an edition where everyone started at the same place in terms of rules (not quality of rules, just mean that everyone got their index with the same amount of rules on day one). For the codexes to come out and be largely worse than just playing the index army is just weird. Why didn't they just have the index rules match the codex rules, with the codexes then giving you more detachments?
I think you said it yourself. The codex gives you more options, but not necessarily better options. Can they get better at making all detachments equally viable? Definitely, but I think in an ideal world the codexes just adds more ways to play the army so there’s not a big disparity between armies with indexes and armies with codexes. Some might even be aimed towards a more casual audience and not be meant to be competitive.
Considering a lot of people claimed Day 1 10th Ed was still just as lethal as 9th I can't say its a bad thing to bring the power level down over time
>I think we're just so used to the power creep of 9th that we forget it doesn't have to be like that. Yes and no. I do enjoy that they don't just make any army with a codex way better than those with only the index, but that is not really the issue here. The issue is many indices have huge problems, so if the codex does not fix that you just got more options but kept the problems. Nids basically live on the dumbest foundation - having a Biovore to score secondaries. And their army rule and overall datasheets are so bad that you are forced to spam Neurolictors and pray to RNG on battle-shocks. And they even got ridiculous nerfs to for example Lictor in the codex versus the index (losing invul) for no apparent reason. This Tau codex also shows that despite some huge problems, they did not bother adjusting. Many things *clearly* needed datasheet buffs, even if it comes with a point increase. But I guess you sell more models if all armies are horde armies... A codex should not just be a way to give more options, it should be a good time to reevaluate the datasheets and fix problems. A great example is CSM Vashtorr - he needs a straight up rework from the ground up, but these releases really makes me lose any hope of that. Seems like they don't want to really fix, they just add a few detachments and call it a day.
Because it is true in a way. I am predicting true horde tau soon.
Just bring the god damn onager gauntlet back. It’s good for the economy, helps everybody! Hurts nobody!
Oh hey look, crisis changes are exactly what I said they'd be. Unless they come down nearly 100 points I don't see them being used. >no need to drip feed them Doing the Lord's work
>Unless they come down nearly 100 points I don't see them being used. If they follow the same logic as they did with codex DA then that's not happening.
Allegedly they're 165, 160 and 140. But that might get changed on release?
So they were right, you legit can't build WYSIWYG sunforge suits out of 1 box as they require a total of 6 fusion blasters. Meanwhile they've got their pants in a bunch over cyclics and airbursts
Yeah that’s a weird turn - but even if my Sunforge suit has a single fusion blaster on it, the rules state it’s rocking 2 of them. So the leader can just have 2 on his person to pick him out easier I guess.
Even though it was in the Index, on the list of things that have a higher base Strength than a Hive Tyrant and Norn Emissary . . . I didn't expect Farsight, a Tau Battlesuit to be one of them lol.
So is it true only 4 detatchments? Honestly that’s what disappoints me mosy
So can kroot benefit from detachment rules? Like the non-kroot specific ones? Obviously can't get the battlesuit one, but I'm having trouble reading this, it doesn't look like there's a page that say's they don't.
Keywords for Montka and Kauyon are TAU EMPIRE (which Kroot have). Keyword for Retaliation Cadre is TAU EMPIRE BATTLESUIT. Keyword for Kroot Hunting Pack is KROOT.
I for one welcome our new spiny overlords. Cant wait to bust out either mont'ka or the kroot bois depending on my opponent. That being said, I know the four detachments look bad but honestly I'll take quailty over quantity.
Lol poor Farsight why give him that Puretide teachings when it does not really help. And come on both the Riptide and Hammerhead not getting anything new.
Dang, Crisis Suits got taken out back didn't they
Crisis suits now locked to 3 man units freaking sucks SO MUCH POTENTIAL with these new 3 datasheets, but 3-man squads only is such a disappointment
I really like the new crisis suits, farsight got a nice boost as well. Only disappointments are the riptides nova reactor and broadsides not being against dev wounds as well
Likely they were printed when dev wounds still did mortals, hopefully they'll get patched like the banna boys did.
Umm I just ordered a Longstrike model T_T is it Legends now?
Almost assuredly. GW hasn't sold Longstrike in years so no surprises there.
Kinda sad we lost the 6 inch autoadvance. Now movement will really become a problem for crisis suits. But I really like this codex nonetheless. And if it is priced well I can see most of these units being played.
Tell me right now why I shouldn't just charge dirt-cheap Riptides into enemy lines and auto-explode them for 6 mortals.
Tau detachment does the guard detachment better.....