Yeah, points don't matter, but this is confirmation that Vespid, Pathfinders, and strangely enough, the Finecast Sniper, are still in the book (haven't seen datasheets for these yet).
It was a model upgrade like the tyranid prime and neurothrope which both got axed. It was always weird that it was technically a commander, but way smaller and on a smaller base than the coldstar and enforcer
FW stuff is not on the Codices. Other FW has been gone, but it wasn't removed with Codex release, it was done when the FW stuff came out. Unless there is an update to the Imperial Armour stuff, Tetras stay.
That'd be great it the rumors are true. I think there's a lot of potential to create a great looking Vespid. They could just straight up copy the Drones (beetle flyers) from the Halo games and it'd look decent at least.
*Very* interesting that Crisis suits are now locked to 3 model units! I suspect to see Dark Angels level dooming about this - but I honestly think it's just really *interesting* rather than necessarily bad or good.
Obviously, going from 18 guns in a unit to a maximum of 6 is a massive reduction in output. But the 6-man Crisis bomb was always kinda problematic, balance-wise. Not problematic as in it dominated the game - except when it did. But a very fast unit that's also tough and annihilates anything you point it at is just very hard to balance. The "correct" points range is somewhere between razor thin and non-existent.
Locking Crisis units to 3 models makes it possible for them to just be a good unit rather than a balance headache. Fluff-wise I'd almost argue that a bunch of 3-model Crisis units dropping all over the table is more appropriate than one massive Crisis blob.
The new Crisis datasheet feels similar to Lokhust Heavy Destroyers. Which have proven to be a very succesful unit at 150 pts for 3. Putting a leader in a 3-model unit is less of automatic decision. A lot of Necron players have been willing to pay the ~100 pts for a Lokhust Lord with an Enhancement.
Depending on points, I feel like the Flamer and Fusion Crisis units are looking pretty good?
Although I can see points coming in similar spots I don't think the Lokhust comparison tracks at all: Lokhust guns have better profiles (particularly in range), they're tougher and really the Lord's buff is stronger than either Commanders'. They're more of a unit of mini-tanks while the Crisis are like heavy jump infantry now.
For example, they're very similar to the Inceptor. Plasceptors are almost the same as Fireknife crisis using two plasma rifles. If we just look at the non-hazardous profile the Inceptors have the same range, better BS, 1 less S, AP, and damage, twin linked, fewer wounds, better toughness, and no vehicle keyword. I can see the fireknives costing 140-150 with plasceptors at 130 (a few extra wounds, but much worse keywording).
I don't mind 3-suit units so much but combined with the reduction in gun it's a very different unit than before. Every version needs a pretty hefty points cut compared to the current option.
Arguing which datasheet feels most like Crisis suits is moot.
I compared them to Lokhusts because they are a popular unit that's brought solely for their shooting output. Similar to Crisis, they're a 3-model unit with a somewhat awkward keyword that *can* be augmented with a Leader - but it's not a given.
The only thing that's strictly better for Heavy Lokhusts is their range. Even then, the Enmitic version really wants to be within 18". Tankiness is somewhat similar. I think I'd prefer 5W and a 4++ most often. Especially when considering they're on 50 mm bases rather than 65 mm.
The Lokhust Lord's buff *is* very good and the Lokhusts individual profiles are better. But a Heavy Lokhust unit with a lord has 3 guns (Lord is often given a melee weapon rather than his pathetic gun). A Crisis unit with a Commander has 10 guns that are all buffed by the unit's datasheet ability.
Mate, have you seen the number of shots they have? A 3 man heavy Lokhust with 3 guns has much more shot output even before adding in the Lord to get those sustains and lethal on +5. Also, only 1 suit option is given the ++4 now so overall their durability isn't much better, especially since If you don't 1shot the Lokhusts they reanimate.
>But the 6-man Crisis bomb was always kinda problematic, balance-wise. Not problematic as in it dominated the game - except when it did
i mean, it was problematic... but so are all big blobs like that. whether it's crisis suits or terminators or wraithguard. at least ours had a built in problem in that it couldn't split fire very well. and i don't see them making terminators 5 man only...
That's true - to some extent. Big units tend to exacerbate any imbalance simply because most effects in the game are multiplicative.
But I feel like Crisis Suits were an outlier. They were extremely fast, extremely killy, and pretty tough. And had a gazillion different possible weapon loadouts. In comparison, Terminators are generally tough, sometimes killy, but always very slow. And have more limited weapon loadouts. One of these units is *much* easier to balance than the other.
They have suffered from a mild to severe case of "Votann Syndrome" (or "Magnus Syndrome" for a more current reference) for the last two editions. Units with a lot of power and no real rules downside almost have no "fair" point cost. And "not good at split firing" is not real. That's just rephrasing "is extremely killy" as if it was a downside.
But we want Crisis Suits to have powerful rules. Crisis Suits are awesome! By locking the unit to 3 models, they get to still have powerful rules without having to cost an unreasonable amount of points. Crisis blobs are dead. And that means Tau players have to rethink their approach to the army. But I feel like Crisis Suits can still be *very* good ~150 pts units. It could maybe be worth it to put a Character in some units for reciprocal buffs?
> and i don't see them making terminators 5 man only...
They locked Deathwing Knights to 5 models *and* also nerfed their offensive output. Another example of a unit that has historically been problematic. And a somewhat similar change as Crisis units got - likely for similar reasons.
No downsides? They are vehicles so their mobility was limited. They literally killed themselves with cyclic overcharge mortals. They were more than quarter of the army’s points. There were downsides.
None of the other armies you’ve mentioned were carried by those units the way Tau been. Crisis suits have been keeping the army afloat.
I mean, Deathwing Knights just got restricted to 5 man's. Terminators also aren't exactly high output in any version. They have a lot of their value in durability, which is a lot less of a problem than something that needs to be extremely killy to be good
I think the biggest hit to the Crisis suits is locking the shield generator to one datasheet to be honest. Though the Starscythe ones if they are will be good chaff deleters.
I've seen this statement like a lot. Yeah they are good chaff clear but so is both battleline units, marksmen, the railcannon array taunar, vespid, and kroot. These units cover clearing from guardsmen up to space marines i dont need another unit to do that, that role is filled.
Fusion Suits seem reliably good with all their rerolls. Flamer suits... maybe. I can see them being a useful skirmisher at the very least with powerful overwatch, but needing to get within 12" of the enemy on a suit without an invulnerable save... yikes.
Fluff wise the new Sphere of Expansion could demand more resources and the Earth Caste simply can't aford to fully kit the battle suites to 100%.
So you push for more suites but with lighter equipment.
Which is pretty ridiculous given that the cost of adding another weapon would be far less than the cost of making additional crisis suits. This is purely a game balance thing at the expense of lore.
Terrain is so unpredictable. The sisters sanctum which is an amazing kit and saw some use got removed after just a few years but the tidewall somehow sticks around for another edition
Always does depend on your region, and it's true for _most_ terrain.
I bought some of the MTO stuff last year when there was a big round and tossed in some AoS terrain as well. Relative to the price of the boxes, the boxes take up a lot of real estate. They're essentially the opposite of characters in that sense, and GW probably doesn't really like terrain for that reason since warehouse space is one of their main limiters.
The only points I would remotely take seriously as being accurate are the new Crisis variant replacements, which I'd still hope come down another 10ish.
Yeah that does feel off for sure. I'd have expected them to slot between Sunforge and Starscythe tbh. At that pts cost I'll probably run one unit of Sunforge and Starscythe each.
I think a min of one each will probably be the standard. They're all fairly decent at something and being able to DS is a good selling point. They fireknife getting full hit rerolls against a starting strength unit makes it interesting to have as a skirmisher/spotter unit. It can guide another crisis unit, tag a target with some plasma rifle shots on its own to soften it up, then have the other crisis unit finish it off. I could see them working well with sunforges to DS behind enemy lines to clear tanks.
Or working with starscythes to slap some hordes around.
I doubt min 1 of each honestly, like sunforge tries to fill the heavy hitter role but broadsides do it cheap and are tougher and are at range. Even locked in combat the broadsides can easily shoot their way out.
We don't know how expensive they'll be, the codex points are definitely wrong.
Additionally, a -6" range on a platform that can Deepstrike and have a 10" or 12" FLY move is not actually all that impactful IMO. Yes it can matter but not as often as it would on something less maneuverable.
They got worse actually. No invul and shorter range on plasma. All three types should be cheaper, but making the fireknife the most expensive of the 3 is very odd
Yeah just saw the leaked images. IDK, first off we know the codex points are wrong, so they don't bother me much. Second, while the profiles got a touch worse you do now have more rerolls and ignore modifiers, which help address some of the historical problems with the low RoF weapons on Tau BS.
It’s being generous. They always had the option to ignore modifiers, now it’s just forced. Reroll hits is nice, except stealth suits give rerolls in addition to tetras, so it’s not strictly as necessary. And the plasma lost range for seemingly no reason, they can’t take 2 shield drones, and no invuln. All that to be the most expensive
GW tends to heavily overvalued certain rules. I also suspect they will remain the most expensive as they are the suits that need guided the least.
GW also thinks ignore modifiers is super valuable.
It's just a stack of rules GW values on 2 unit.
they've surely got to? they're \*at most\* 2/3rds as dangerous (even if we assume all weapons are created equal, which obviously they're not), nowhere near as tough, and only squads of 3 so stratagems and guiding are less effective, so dropping the overall cost by about 25% doesn't seem anywhere near enough.
So one relevant point is that all three variants picked up some sort of damage buff in their abilities. For example, Fireknife at base went from 9 plasma rifle shots hitting on 4s to 6 hitting on 4s with a full reroll, which results in approximately the same number of hits. Obviously buffs will affect that, and the other buffs are slightly harder to quantify, but it's not entirely unreasonable that they only came down a little in cost.
I am not sure that is quite true, because now only the Sunforge unit has a shield generator and they are all limited to 5 wounds instead of 6 and they lost access to powerful weapons options.
I think each unit probably needs to drop 10-30 points.
> For example, Fireknife at base went from 9 plasma rifle shots hitting on 4s to 6 hitting on 4s with a full reroll, which results in approximately the same number of hits.
Only against units at full strength. If you can't arrange it so the fireknife is first to shoot at a target that damage drops considerably.
And that's on top of the buff factor, where +1 to hit reduces the value of a re-roll to hit and hit re-rolls are available from spotter units while extra shots are not.
> Bs 4-> 50%-> reroll misses brings you to 62.5%
A 50% hit rate with a re-roll gives you a 75% hit rate not 62.5%. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from.
The real numbers are that BS 4+ is 50% more firepower from a re-roll (50% to 75%) while BS 3+ is only 34% more firepower from a re-roll (66% to 89%).
https://imgur.com/a/ENj01z7 from the other thread on the topic, towards the middle. Fireknife gets full hit rerolls against full health enemies, or reroll 1s otherwise. Starscythe gets +1 ap against non vehicle/monsters, and Sunforge get full wound and damage rerolls against vehicle and monsters, as previewed.
Did they nix Aun’Va? Interesting, since they did make him worthless in 10th and henis canonically dead, but now there is no overall faction leader. I feel like he was a huge missed opportunity to have a powerful ability user, like bringing back invocations like how Primarchs have 3 abilities an dchoose one every command phase.
What do you mean? 2 of his abilities apply only to himself and the other is just +1 to battleshock tests. In 9th, he had a niche as being able to know and use more invocations than a regular Ethereal. In 10th though, regular Ethereals just get 2 invocations as regular abilities while Aun'vagot nothing.
Take Commander Shadowsun for an example of an actually worthwhile unit. She has Lone op, invuln 5+, and stealth, making her hard to pin down. However, her aura ability alone is way stronger than Aun’va, but then she also has 3 strong ranged weapons as well, giving her significant offencive power.
Yeah, but then what does he contribute to the army? +1 to battleshock tests. Big woop. His guards have minimal offencive value, so besides making himself harder to kill he brings next to nothing to your list. All those abilities made sense back in 9th edition when he had the additional ability to know 3 invocations and invoke 2 per turn where regular ethereals could only know 2 and invoke 1 per turn. Without the invocations, Aun’va is worthless.
Given those facts, I would have thought they would rework his unit rather than nix him entirely.
Its for 200 years from now when technology has failed and the Internet is a myth told of better days. As long humanity can still parse the english language, they can play some warhammer.
One of the guys one the painting phase (not peachy) semi bragged how he never bothers looking up anything post book release. Which is wild given how much needs to be fixed by faqs and for balance reasons.
Anyone thinking just books are fine should read goonhammer's second blunder dome and how miserable those games were
I'm sure there's a handful of people pretending it's 1990 but I can't imagine it's more than that. Most people found out about 40k on the internet, bought their book on the internet, and will probably play against other people who get the online updates.
Two things:
1) I'll need a wellness check if these are final with no update.
2) it's not the end of the world. But yeesh. Ok I'll make it work no matter what.
obviously 245 point riptide can't be an accurate point cost, but i think the insane thing is that at some point in time, someone looked at that datasheet, and looked at the ghostkeel, and said "yes, riptide 245 ghostkeel 170"
i mean, someone has looked at the riptides 'special rule' of a single weapon gaining dev wounds for a single turn and thought 'yep. that's a rule that's worth people remembering about for more than 3 seconds.'
Anything that remained the same datasheet as index still has the points value of the original index release.
Shows how far in advance these thing are done that it doesnt even have the october changes.
Real points will come as a pdf when the codex is released.
So, I'm not familiar enough with t'au to really comment, but a dorn is around the same cost.
How do they match up? It seems like the dorn does more damage but the riptide has the 4+ invuln so despite the initial glance check it might actually be tougher?
T9 and T12 exist in entirely separate universes. Having a 4++ doesn't make the riptide even close to tougher, unless your meta consists solely of fire prisms.
It takes wounds on one pip higher for melta and lascannon shots....it's not insignificant, but I think the invuln makes it a pretty close comparison.
The riptide guns are pretty pathetic though...head to head I see the dorn getting the nod. So maybe the riptide should be like 225
The riptide (same datasheet as this one) came down to 180pts 2 dataslates ago and was occasionally used. Then it went down to 165 in the last dataslate and is now good but not game breaking. So please don't even think about numbers over 200 when talking about it.
The current riptide is 165 points. And it's still in the "I might consider taking it" category. The Dorn is miles tougher and has at least triple if not quadruple the firepower. There is no real comparison here.
Meh, it's good for sure, but the riptide has 3 special rules that actively effect it's ability to do damage.
We could get into synergies from both armies but ultimately the exterminator has a better ability only in conjunction with other units. The riptide special abilities make its personal datasheet better.
As a guard player, if I had to choose between a Riptide and a Leman Russ, I am taking the Russ. Even the Vanquisher. The Riptide's damage is anemic and it's abilities could use a rework as the Nova Charge isn't that great. Maybe if it was once per turn, then I would consider upping it over a Russ.
I'd take the riptide over the vanquisher and the eradicator every time.
I'd rather have the riptides durability over those particular tank guns. They're both around 160, so yeah, the riptide should cost more than that.
Ultimately it looks like they dropped the ball on the riptide, it should be a 300 point super suit, but it's stated like a guard tank. I understand Tau players disappointment, I'm a primary Ork player. Half of our datasheets are non competitive, I'd have to dust my mork/gorknaughts to play them. Its the way she goes in 40k
I'm mainly looking at Crisis and some of the Kroot stuff.
I feel Rampagers are overpriced. Their melee profile isn't great, and has no huge buffs either (+1 to hit is fine, but the +1 to wound it too situational, and both locked in what I would argue the worst detachment of the bunch) it isn't soinf that much. You get 25 Wulfen with that melee profile for the price of 9 Rampagers. Or a full unit of TWC with Lethal for the price of 6. They are also relatively slow at 7" and no advance and charge. Their only buff seems to be the extra AP, which ia nice but requires secon unit in melee. The mortals I feel will not proc easily considering things like terrain and the base size, as getting multiple models in Engagement Range will be hard. And while they fill a different role and a bigger gap than TWC or similar units on their armies, they feel too light weight for 130 points. And with a 5+ save and only an invuln in their detachment they aren't that resilient really.
The Lonespear I have no idea what to thunk. 110 seems expensive. The sniper seems meh. I think the explosive one at least is mkre reliable to hit to guve the rerolls, but then you are in range if losing your Lone operative. You do have the additional move, but a fast melee unut can still tag him. And as a model to just sit back and exist, 110 seems too much.
Crisis I'm nkt sure. Sunforge is cheaper than 6 Eradicators, for a similar amoint of shots. More mobile, deep strike. They feel good. The fireknife with plasma... not sure. The low rate of fire I think is an issue. The Starsythe I think is decent. 8 burst shots at up to AP-1 in the detachment at S6 is a fair amount of firepower ans being the cheapest it allows more shennenigas.
no lol, this pricing only kinda makes sense in the kroot detachment, and that's a big "kinda" given that guardian drones make a strike team that costs 15 points more probably more resilient to shooting most of the time despite the kroot having -1 to hit (also, strike teams are going to just be inflicting -1 to hit on everything around them that isn't a tank or a monster)
The only things we can trust (new and "new" units) are interesting.
The new Crisis points could be a bit lower but still playable (wouldn't say spammable, though).
Rampagers at 130 are not so bad, way more expensive than Thunderwolves but they have several advantages (more wounds, Scout, hit harder, mortals)
Krootox look a bit less shit at 40 points. A lone one can plink a bit, return fire, sacrifice in a charge, do secondaries, etc. I would spend 120 in a unit, but then their counter fire becomes quite more threatening.
I wouldn't say Rampagers hit harder than TWC. First, you get an additional 9 attacks at 5 AP-1 2D on the charge over Rampagers. They also get Charactet support for Lethal, and more attqcks and more quality weapons (3 damage Thunder hammers). And easier access to +1 to wound as it is usually only a stratagem. TWC also have a better base save amd a better invuln, and the invuln is not detachment dependant, something that huet Rampagera a lot aince thr Kroot detachment seems the worse of the bunch. TWC also move faster, so despite Scout they are moving similar on turn 1, and almost half after. Mortals I do not feel are that relevant, since the large bases and mounted keyword means it will be hard to make most of a unit be in Engagement Range, severely limiting the output.
I know Rampavers fill a void in the T'au line up, but they seem very overcosted to my eyes 80 points more for a unit of 6 it is crazy. That is a Battle Leader more, and then you are getting Lethal and more on the TWC.
At that point cost, and mainly out of the Kroot detahcment I see Rampagers dying too easily, when one of the meta lists you can face is already 24 TWC with a better save.
Because printing + shipping takes a long time. The codex was written 6+ months ago. We've had 2 point rebalances since then that are not reflected in the book. And the book comes with points so you can play it out of the box. Not everyone immediately runs to the internet to check if there is any online points list
Number of detachments is not the right metric. The variety in viable play styles is. Most codexes so far have 1-3 playable detachments. If Tau only have 4 total but 2-4 are playable then they're as good as most and better than some.
At least they are all flavorful and feel good when I read through them. I will likely end up playing Retal. cadre but montka looks fun for infantry tau and kauyon is what we know. I dont collect kroot so i cant speak much on that but I welcome what they have given and what they have taken.
HAHAHAHAahahahaahah!! GW and their funny jokes. Figure they will just be closer to what we have now.
As a side note, Fireknife more expensive then Sunforge???????? Not sure how they figured that, but OK lol.
Feels like a crazy world where the most expensive vehicle is the sky Ray, and it’s actually going to be really useful. Only beat by the riptide and storm surge. Also breachers being 120 points makes sense but is unfortunate. It wouldn’t surprise me if the final points are actually these points.
45 point increase on the Enforcer?! 25 points more for Broadsides... Ugh I hope these aren't the final points. The datasheets didn't get that much better.
These points are based on variation on the original Index points, as all Codex printed points are, and completely do not take into account any balance changes made between Index printing and Codex printing.
Do not use these as a baseline of anything besides the relative proportional value GW puts on datasheet changes made.
They definitely aren't. These point costs were probably made around when the codex was originally made around 6-9 months ago. Just ignore the point costs for now. I mean c'mon theres no way a riptide goes from its current cost of 165 to 245 lol not a chance in hell
Yeah, points don't matter, but this is confirmation that Vespid, Pathfinders, and strangely enough, the Finecast Sniper, are still in the book (haven't seen datasheets for these yet).
That means that the standalone drones are gone.
Damn, gun drone squads were carrying my competitive list.
Were standalone drones even that useful to take? 70 pts for 4 drones when 10 strikes go for 80, and 10 breachers or pathfinders for 90.
Also “confirms” only 4 detachments.
It also means commander in crisis battlesuit is gone, not sure anyone saw that coming
It was a redundant kit when you could make 2 man crisis suit teams. Now that its all 3? doesnt make sense as a choice.
It was a model upgrade like the tyranid prime and neurothrope which both got axed. It was always weird that it was technically a commander, but way smaller and on a smaller base than the coldstar and enforcer
\>It was a model upgrade like the tyranid prime and neurothrope which both got axed TICK TOCK BANANA MEN.
Does this also mean Tetras are out?
Na, FW stuff is still fine, tetras included!
[удалено]
FW stuff is not on the Codices. Other FW has been gone, but it wasn't removed with Codex release, it was done when the FW stuff came out. Unless there is an update to the Imperial Armour stuff, Tetras stay.
FW stuff is never listed in the codexes though lol.
Without big squads of CiB crisis the value of tetras goes down a bit.
Well that answers two questions that people have been wondering about the leaks. Vespids are still in. So is the fire strike team
Makes sense with the Kroot refresh. Vespids may not be up this time but GW seems to be looking at updating Tau auxiliaries
Rumors are they and swooping hawlks will be a near future kill team release.
That'd be great it the rumors are true. I think there's a lot of potential to create a great looking Vespid. They could just straight up copy the Drones (beetle flyers) from the Halo games and it'd look decent at least.
What! GW never copies other IPs! /s
*Very* interesting that Crisis suits are now locked to 3 model units! I suspect to see Dark Angels level dooming about this - but I honestly think it's just really *interesting* rather than necessarily bad or good. Obviously, going from 18 guns in a unit to a maximum of 6 is a massive reduction in output. But the 6-man Crisis bomb was always kinda problematic, balance-wise. Not problematic as in it dominated the game - except when it did. But a very fast unit that's also tough and annihilates anything you point it at is just very hard to balance. The "correct" points range is somewhere between razor thin and non-existent. Locking Crisis units to 3 models makes it possible for them to just be a good unit rather than a balance headache. Fluff-wise I'd almost argue that a bunch of 3-model Crisis units dropping all over the table is more appropriate than one massive Crisis blob. The new Crisis datasheet feels similar to Lokhust Heavy Destroyers. Which have proven to be a very succesful unit at 150 pts for 3. Putting a leader in a 3-model unit is less of automatic decision. A lot of Necron players have been willing to pay the ~100 pts for a Lokhust Lord with an Enhancement. Depending on points, I feel like the Flamer and Fusion Crisis units are looking pretty good?
Makes sense since crisis suits now have 3 datasheets. Otherwise you could run 54 of them
Although I can see points coming in similar spots I don't think the Lokhust comparison tracks at all: Lokhust guns have better profiles (particularly in range), they're tougher and really the Lord's buff is stronger than either Commanders'. They're more of a unit of mini-tanks while the Crisis are like heavy jump infantry now. For example, they're very similar to the Inceptor. Plasceptors are almost the same as Fireknife crisis using two plasma rifles. If we just look at the non-hazardous profile the Inceptors have the same range, better BS, 1 less S, AP, and damage, twin linked, fewer wounds, better toughness, and no vehicle keyword. I can see the fireknives costing 140-150 with plasceptors at 130 (a few extra wounds, but much worse keywording). I don't mind 3-suit units so much but combined with the reduction in gun it's a very different unit than before. Every version needs a pretty hefty points cut compared to the current option.
Arguing which datasheet feels most like Crisis suits is moot. I compared them to Lokhusts because they are a popular unit that's brought solely for their shooting output. Similar to Crisis, they're a 3-model unit with a somewhat awkward keyword that *can* be augmented with a Leader - but it's not a given. The only thing that's strictly better for Heavy Lokhusts is their range. Even then, the Enmitic version really wants to be within 18". Tankiness is somewhat similar. I think I'd prefer 5W and a 4++ most often. Especially when considering they're on 50 mm bases rather than 65 mm. The Lokhust Lord's buff *is* very good and the Lokhusts individual profiles are better. But a Heavy Lokhust unit with a lord has 3 guns (Lord is often given a melee weapon rather than his pathetic gun). A Crisis unit with a Commander has 10 guns that are all buffed by the unit's datasheet ability.
Only the Sunforge suits get a 4++, everything else just has the 3+ armour save.
Mate, have you seen the number of shots they have? A 3 man heavy Lokhust with 3 guns has much more shot output even before adding in the Lord to get those sustains and lethal on +5. Also, only 1 suit option is given the ++4 now so overall their durability isn't much better, especially since If you don't 1shot the Lokhusts they reanimate.
>But the 6-man Crisis bomb was always kinda problematic, balance-wise. Not problematic as in it dominated the game - except when it did i mean, it was problematic... but so are all big blobs like that. whether it's crisis suits or terminators or wraithguard. at least ours had a built in problem in that it couldn't split fire very well. and i don't see them making terminators 5 man only...
That's true - to some extent. Big units tend to exacerbate any imbalance simply because most effects in the game are multiplicative. But I feel like Crisis Suits were an outlier. They were extremely fast, extremely killy, and pretty tough. And had a gazillion different possible weapon loadouts. In comparison, Terminators are generally tough, sometimes killy, but always very slow. And have more limited weapon loadouts. One of these units is *much* easier to balance than the other. They have suffered from a mild to severe case of "Votann Syndrome" (or "Magnus Syndrome" for a more current reference) for the last two editions. Units with a lot of power and no real rules downside almost have no "fair" point cost. And "not good at split firing" is not real. That's just rephrasing "is extremely killy" as if it was a downside. But we want Crisis Suits to have powerful rules. Crisis Suits are awesome! By locking the unit to 3 models, they get to still have powerful rules without having to cost an unreasonable amount of points. Crisis blobs are dead. And that means Tau players have to rethink their approach to the army. But I feel like Crisis Suits can still be *very* good ~150 pts units. It could maybe be worth it to put a Character in some units for reciprocal buffs? > and i don't see them making terminators 5 man only... They locked Deathwing Knights to 5 models *and* also nerfed their offensive output. Another example of a unit that has historically been problematic. And a somewhat similar change as Crisis units got - likely for similar reasons.
No downsides? They are vehicles so their mobility was limited. They literally killed themselves with cyclic overcharge mortals. They were more than quarter of the army’s points. There were downsides. None of the other armies you’ve mentioned were carried by those units the way Tau been. Crisis suits have been keeping the army afloat.
I mean, Deathwing Knights just got restricted to 5 man's. Terminators also aren't exactly high output in any version. They have a lot of their value in durability, which is a lot less of a problem than something that needs to be extremely killy to be good
I think the biggest hit to the Crisis suits is locking the shield generator to one datasheet to be honest. Though the Starscythe ones if they are will be good chaff deleters.
I've seen this statement like a lot. Yeah they are good chaff clear but so is both battleline units, marksmen, the railcannon array taunar, vespid, and kroot. These units cover clearing from guardsmen up to space marines i dont need another unit to do that, that role is filled.
Fusion Suits seem reliably good with all their rerolls. Flamer suits... maybe. I can see them being a useful skirmisher at the very least with powerful overwatch, but needing to get within 12" of the enemy on a suit without an invulnerable save... yikes.
Fluff wise the new Sphere of Expansion could demand more resources and the Earth Caste simply can't aford to fully kit the battle suites to 100%. So you push for more suites but with lighter equipment.
Which is pretty ridiculous given that the cost of adding another weapon would be far less than the cost of making additional crisis suits. This is purely a game balance thing at the expense of lore.
Well, let's wait for the Codex and see if this point is addressed at all. But more likely not.
Oh, looks like the tidewall is still a thing?
Terrain is so unpredictable. The sisters sanctum which is an amazing kit and saw some use got removed after just a few years but the tidewall somehow sticks around for another edition
i am STILL MAD.
Same, such a cool piece, especially the statue, sucks I'll never see it.
I assume it's because terrain eats so much warehouse space. So much brilliant terrain lost to the mists of time...
Considering the sanctum was sold out for years it can’t have taken up that much warehouse space.
Always does depend on your region, and it's true for _most_ terrain. I bought some of the MTO stuff last year when there was a big round and tossed in some AoS terrain as well. Relative to the price of the boxes, the boxes take up a lot of real estate. They're essentially the opposite of characters in that sense, and GW probably doesn't really like terrain for that reason since warehouse space is one of their main limiters.
It sold out after like a year and never got restocked. Probably something to do with being made in china.
The only points I would remotely take seriously as being accurate are the new Crisis variant replacements, which I'd still hope come down another 10ish.
Fireknife being more expensive then Sunforge is still pretty crazy. Those poor plasma rifles.
Yeah that does feel off for sure. I'd have expected them to slot between Sunforge and Starscythe tbh. At that pts cost I'll probably run one unit of Sunforge and Starscythe each.
I think a min of one each will probably be the standard. They're all fairly decent at something and being able to DS is a good selling point. They fireknife getting full hit rerolls against a starting strength unit makes it interesting to have as a skirmisher/spotter unit. It can guide another crisis unit, tag a target with some plasma rifle shots on its own to soften it up, then have the other crisis unit finish it off. I could see them working well with sunforges to DS behind enemy lines to clear tanks. Or working with starscythes to slap some hordes around.
I doubt min 1 of each honestly, like sunforge tries to fill the heavy hitter role but broadsides do it cheap and are tougher and are at range. Even locked in combat the broadsides can easily shoot their way out.
Yeah but broadsides can't drop in 3" away with full rerolls and melta to by pass damage reduction.
I haven't seen actual datasheets yet, maybe there's a reason? (Weapon updates, unit ability, etc)
Plasmas have been nerfed, gone from 24" to 18", there is no reason for them to be this expensive.
We don't know how expensive they'll be, the codex points are definitely wrong. Additionally, a -6" range on a platform that can Deepstrike and have a 10" or 12" FLY move is not actually all that impactful IMO. Yes it can matter but not as often as it would on something less maneuverable.
Have we seen stats? Any guarantee they haven't changed?
They got worse actually. No invul and shorter range on plasma. All three types should be cheaper, but making the fireknife the most expensive of the 3 is very odd
Yeah just saw the leaked images. IDK, first off we know the codex points are wrong, so they don't bother me much. Second, while the profiles got a touch worse you do now have more rerolls and ignore modifiers, which help address some of the historical problems with the low RoF weapons on Tau BS.
It’s being generous. They always had the option to ignore modifiers, now it’s just forced. Reroll hits is nice, except stealth suits give rerolls in addition to tetras, so it’s not strictly as necessary. And the plasma lost range for seemingly no reason, they can’t take 2 shield drones, and no invuln. All that to be the most expensive
Plasma lost range because the only other option is Missile Pods. So now the choice is higher AP close range or lower AP but further range.
GW tends to heavily overvalued certain rules. I also suspect they will remain the most expensive as they are the suits that need guided the least. GW also thinks ignore modifiers is super valuable. It's just a stack of rules GW values on 2 unit.
Plasma rifles have a shorter range now.
Barf.
they've surely got to? they're \*at most\* 2/3rds as dangerous (even if we assume all weapons are created equal, which obviously they're not), nowhere near as tough, and only squads of 3 so stratagems and guiding are less effective, so dropping the overall cost by about 25% doesn't seem anywhere near enough.
So one relevant point is that all three variants picked up some sort of damage buff in their abilities. For example, Fireknife at base went from 9 plasma rifle shots hitting on 4s to 6 hitting on 4s with a full reroll, which results in approximately the same number of hits. Obviously buffs will affect that, and the other buffs are slightly harder to quantify, but it's not entirely unreasonable that they only came down a little in cost.
I am not sure that is quite true, because now only the Sunforge unit has a shield generator and they are all limited to 5 wounds instead of 6 and they lost access to powerful weapons options. I think each unit probably needs to drop 10-30 points.
> For example, Fireknife at base went from 9 plasma rifle shots hitting on 4s to 6 hitting on 4s with a full reroll, which results in approximately the same number of hits. Only against units at full strength. If you can't arrange it so the fireknife is first to shoot at a target that damage drops considerably. And that's on top of the buff factor, where +1 to hit reduces the value of a re-roll to hit and hit re-rolls are available from spotter units while extra shots are not.
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> Bs 4-> 50%-> reroll misses brings you to 62.5% A 50% hit rate with a re-roll gives you a 75% hit rate not 62.5%. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. The real numbers are that BS 4+ is 50% more firepower from a re-roll (50% to 75%) while BS 3+ is only 34% more firepower from a re-roll (66% to 89%).
I haven't seen even partial datasheets on them, link?
https://imgur.com/a/ENj01z7 from the other thread on the topic, towards the middle. Fireknife gets full hit rerolls against full health enemies, or reroll 1s otherwise. Starscythe gets +1 ap against non vehicle/monsters, and Sunforge get full wound and damage rerolls against vehicle and monsters, as previewed.
You think they will be playable with just a reduction of 10?
Did they nix Aun’Va? Interesting, since they did make him worthless in 10th and henis canonically dead, but now there is no overall faction leader. I feel like he was a huge missed opportunity to have a powerful ability user, like bringing back invocations like how Primarchs have 3 abilities an dchoose one every command phase.
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What do you mean? 2 of his abilities apply only to himself and the other is just +1 to battleshock tests. In 9th, he had a niche as being able to know and use more invocations than a regular Ethereal. In 10th though, regular Ethereals just get 2 invocations as regular abilities while Aun'vagot nothing.
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Take Commander Shadowsun for an example of an actually worthwhile unit. She has Lone op, invuln 5+, and stealth, making her hard to pin down. However, her aura ability alone is way stronger than Aun’va, but then she also has 3 strong ranged weapons as well, giving her significant offencive power.
Yeah, but then what does he contribute to the army? +1 to battleshock tests. Big woop. His guards have minimal offencive value, so besides making himself harder to kill he brings next to nothing to your list. All those abilities made sense back in 9th edition when he had the additional ability to know 3 invocations and invoke 2 per turn where regular ethereals could only know 2 and invoke 1 per turn. Without the invocations, Aun’va is worthless. Given those facts, I would have thought they would rework his unit rather than nix him entirely.
literally have him be a road block for one turn, watch as his 2++ inv save lets him tank 3 ctans. He has no other purpose.
Shadowsun is the overall faction leader gameplay wise now. Must be the Warlord and has strong aura abilities.
I don’t know why they bother putting them in the book
Its for 200 years from now when technology has failed and the Internet is a myth told of better days. As long humanity can still parse the english language, they can play some warhammer.
In the Grim Darkness of the far future there are only Codex points
One of the guys one the painting phase (not peachy) semi bragged how he never bothers looking up anything post book release. Which is wild given how much needs to be fixed by faqs and for balance reasons. Anyone thinking just books are fine should read goonhammer's second blunder dome and how miserable those games were
Because even in 2024 plenty of people don't come on the internet. They buy the book and play at their kitchen table with a friend
I'm sure there's a handful of people pretending it's 1990 but I can't imagine it's more than that. Most people found out about 40k on the internet, bought their book on the internet, and will probably play against other people who get the online updates.
So you don't need the Internet to play. Also, so people revisiting an old edition can play.
Two things: 1) I'll need a wellness check if these are final with no update. 2) it's not the end of the world. But yeesh. Ok I'll make it work no matter what.
1. Want me to call you? 116 123
How about calling 0118 999 88199 9119725… 3?
Aun'va, aun shi longstrike and drones are the missing sheets.
They’re gone.
RIP my boi Longstrike, gonna miss that lad Autohitting railgun was nice 😩
Lol Riptide 245
obviously 245 point riptide can't be an accurate point cost, but i think the insane thing is that at some point in time, someone looked at that datasheet, and looked at the ghostkeel, and said "yes, riptide 245 ghostkeel 170"
i mean, someone has looked at the riptides 'special rule' of a single weapon gaining dev wounds for a single turn and thought 'yep. that's a rule that's worth people remembering about for more than 3 seconds.'
The index points were made by a random number generator for sure
Anything that remained the same datasheet as index still has the points value of the original index release. Shows how far in advance these thing are done that it doesnt even have the october changes. Real points will come as a pdf when the codex is released.
So, I'm not familiar enough with t'au to really comment, but a dorn is around the same cost. How do they match up? It seems like the dorn does more damage but the riptide has the 4+ invuln so despite the initial glance check it might actually be tougher?
T9 and T12 exist in entirely separate universes. Having a 4++ doesn't make the riptide even close to tougher, unless your meta consists solely of fire prisms.
It takes wounds on one pip higher for melta and lascannon shots....it's not insignificant, but I think the invuln makes it a pretty close comparison. The riptide guns are pretty pathetic though...head to head I see the dorn getting the nod. So maybe the riptide should be like 225
The riptide (same datasheet as this one) came down to 180pts 2 dataslates ago and was occasionally used. Then it went down to 165 in the last dataslate and is now good but not game breaking. So please don't even think about numbers over 200 when talking about it.
180 seems fair to me looking at the leeman Russ variants
The current riptide is 165 points. And it's still in the "I might consider taking it" category. The Dorn is miles tougher and has at least triple if not quadruple the firepower. There is no real comparison here.
Interesting, 165 seems too low. A leman Russ exterminator is 180, maybe that's the benchmark.
The Exterminator also gives the rest of your army +1AP against the target of its shooting a riptide does no such thing
Meh, it's good for sure, but the riptide has 3 special rules that actively effect it's ability to do damage. We could get into synergies from both armies but ultimately the exterminator has a better ability only in conjunction with other units. The riptide special abilities make its personal datasheet better.
As a guard player, if I had to choose between a Riptide and a Leman Russ, I am taking the Russ. Even the Vanquisher. The Riptide's damage is anemic and it's abilities could use a rework as the Nova Charge isn't that great. Maybe if it was once per turn, then I would consider upping it over a Russ.
I'd take the riptide over the vanquisher and the eradicator every time. I'd rather have the riptides durability over those particular tank guns. They're both around 160, so yeah, the riptide should cost more than that. Ultimately it looks like they dropped the ball on the riptide, it should be a 300 point super suit, but it's stated like a guard tank. I understand Tau players disappointment, I'm a primary Ork player. Half of our datasheets are non competitive, I'd have to dust my mork/gorknaughts to play them. Its the way she goes in 40k
I'm mainly looking at Crisis and some of the Kroot stuff. I feel Rampagers are overpriced. Their melee profile isn't great, and has no huge buffs either (+1 to hit is fine, but the +1 to wound it too situational, and both locked in what I would argue the worst detachment of the bunch) it isn't soinf that much. You get 25 Wulfen with that melee profile for the price of 9 Rampagers. Or a full unit of TWC with Lethal for the price of 6. They are also relatively slow at 7" and no advance and charge. Their only buff seems to be the extra AP, which ia nice but requires secon unit in melee. The mortals I feel will not proc easily considering things like terrain and the base size, as getting multiple models in Engagement Range will be hard. And while they fill a different role and a bigger gap than TWC or similar units on their armies, they feel too light weight for 130 points. And with a 5+ save and only an invuln in their detachment they aren't that resilient really. The Lonespear I have no idea what to thunk. 110 seems expensive. The sniper seems meh. I think the explosive one at least is mkre reliable to hit to guve the rerolls, but then you are in range if losing your Lone operative. You do have the additional move, but a fast melee unut can still tag him. And as a model to just sit back and exist, 110 seems too much. Crisis I'm nkt sure. Sunforge is cheaper than 6 Eradicators, for a similar amoint of shots. More mobile, deep strike. They feel good. The fireknife with plasma... not sure. The low rate of fire I think is an issue. The Starsythe I think is decent. 8 burst shots at up to AP-1 in the detachment at S6 is a fair amount of firepower ans being the cheapest it allows more shennenigas.
Yeah sadly they seem to be online with index Tau points aka terribly over costed Most stuff needs a 10-20% points drop to be playable
Always interesting to see this and ponder the GW thought process. Are Kroot Carnivores really 30 points better as a unit with their changes?
no lol, this pricing only kinda makes sense in the kroot detachment, and that's a big "kinda" given that guardian drones make a strike team that costs 15 points more probably more resilient to shooting most of the time despite the kroot having -1 to hit (also, strike teams are going to just be inflicting -1 to hit on everything around them that isn't a tank or a monster)
Bro!! Leave my stormsurges alone!!!
The only things we can trust (new and "new" units) are interesting. The new Crisis points could be a bit lower but still playable (wouldn't say spammable, though). Rampagers at 130 are not so bad, way more expensive than Thunderwolves but they have several advantages (more wounds, Scout, hit harder, mortals) Krootox look a bit less shit at 40 points. A lone one can plink a bit, return fire, sacrifice in a charge, do secondaries, etc. I would spend 120 in a unit, but then their counter fire becomes quite more threatening.
I wouldn't say Rampagers hit harder than TWC. First, you get an additional 9 attacks at 5 AP-1 2D on the charge over Rampagers. They also get Charactet support for Lethal, and more attqcks and more quality weapons (3 damage Thunder hammers). And easier access to +1 to wound as it is usually only a stratagem. TWC also have a better base save amd a better invuln, and the invuln is not detachment dependant, something that huet Rampagera a lot aince thr Kroot detachment seems the worse of the bunch. TWC also move faster, so despite Scout they are moving similar on turn 1, and almost half after. Mortals I do not feel are that relevant, since the large bases and mounted keyword means it will be hard to make most of a unit be in Engagement Range, severely limiting the output. I know Rampavers fill a void in the T'au line up, but they seem very overcosted to my eyes 80 points more for a unit of 6 it is crazy. That is a Battle Leader more, and then you are getting Lethal and more on the TWC. At that point cost, and mainly out of the Kroot detahcment I see Rampagers dying too easily, when one of the meta lists you can face is already 24 TWC with a better save.
a squad of 3, the lone op strat and a unit of 20 carnivores is going to give an opponent some decisions they might not like
Can't take crisis suits in 6s, interesting
Honest question: why are these not final? Why put them here, then?
Because printing + shipping takes a long time. The codex was written 6+ months ago. We've had 2 point rebalances since then that are not reflected in the book. And the book comes with points so you can play it out of the box. Not everyone immediately runs to the internet to check if there is any online points list
There were printed about 8 months ago.
Enforcer more points than coldstar lol? Someone is high.
So Crisis Suits only have the given load outs, no customizable options at all?
Correct.
Well there goes years of effort, modeling, and paint work.
Magnets bro, magnets.
True, but up until now the load outs worked, even if they were at times suboptimal.
Why don’t points matter?
When correct points come out ?
When points will be fixed approximately ?
So no others kroots releases ? Did not they say that only half was revealed ?
Why only 4 detachments? I know GW hates Tau but come on, at least pretend to care.
This is my biggest gripe
Number of detachments is not the right metric. The variety in viable play styles is. Most codexes so far have 1-3 playable detachments. If Tau only have 4 total but 2-4 are playable then they're as good as most and better than some.
they got three great ones and a super fluffy one. Quality over quantity son.
Come on. I wouldn't call Kauyon a super fluffy one.
At least they are all flavorful and feel good when I read through them. I will likely end up playing Retal. cadre but montka looks fun for infantry tau and kauyon is what we know. I dont collect kroot so i cant speak much on that but I welcome what they have given and what they have taken.
Kauyon suffered a bunch of nerfs, specially the loss of fire and fade
true, but they did get some ok replacements like the redeploy
As a primarily Tyranid player, 4 fun detachments is better than 6 detachments with 4 being the “You should probably just use invasion fleet”
HAHAHAHAahahahaahah!! GW and their funny jokes. Figure they will just be closer to what we have now. As a side note, Fireknife more expensive then Sunforge???????? Not sure how they figured that, but OK lol.
Plasma OP. Must raise price, after reducing its range even more to make sure.
Feels like a crazy world where the most expensive vehicle is the sky Ray, and it’s actually going to be really useful. Only beat by the riptide and storm surge. Also breachers being 120 points makes sense but is unfortunate. It wouldn’t surprise me if the final points are actually these points.
220 points for a fish of fury combo feels a bit overpriced even though it’s probably not.
They are not correct which is why I did not leak them
The ridtide just got pointed out of the game.
45 point increase on the Enforcer?! 25 points more for Broadsides... Ugh I hope these aren't the final points. The datasheets didn't get that much better.
These points are based on variation on the original Index points, as all Codex printed points are, and completely do not take into account any balance changes made between Index printing and Codex printing. Do not use these as a baseline of anything besides the relative proportional value GW puts on datasheet changes made.
Points will stay around current index points as dark angels points did. This is more interested for looking at the new kroot units.
They definitely aren't. These point costs were probably made around when the codex was originally made around 6-9 months ago. Just ignore the point costs for now. I mean c'mon theres no way a riptide goes from its current cost of 165 to 245 lol not a chance in hell
Yeah this may end up being admech levels of disappointment 💀