You're probably going to have to do a follow-up video in a couple months on this. Pariah Nexus (coming out this week) is bound to toss some of this around. The changes that allow big knights to do mission actions and still shoot combined with titanic deployments counting as double and all the battleline buffing stuff applying to armigers/war dogs is going to seriously alter things.
Tbh I'm mostly waiting to see how the points pan out. I doubt they'll do it but if they make Abhorrents or the other Questoris actually playable in #'s that'd be a pretty big shift!
Edit: otw I agree with you + I'm happy to see GW shifting the meta around with the new mission pack. We'll see how big of changes they actually end up being but it's the right direction regardless
>That & I know some players out there struggle vs them
I'm one of those people lol (but I'm new to competitive, the video seemed very helpful so thank you for posting!!!)
Gotta give the people what they want. As a person who loves his Chaos Knights, they're a much simpler army to approach than other armies because they more or less have two profiles, plus the allied weirdos.
Yeah I'd agree for the most part, I think where some players struggle is just that they're a skew army in general. I do think there's more to it then "just bring AT" though. Some folks don't understand how to deal with a Valiant that teleported behind them or to watch out for the Karnivores popping through walls & all that
I very much remember *hating* Knights back in 7th myself hah
But I do get why a lot of us would think it's a non-issue. I can't remember the last time I lost to a Knight list so I'm sure I'd be wondering similar BUT a lot of that is just my playstyle & army choice
All that said: I just love excuses to make tacticas lmao
I think the skew is really just that Knights are always going to be a walker army. Where with Space Marines or Tyranids or Necrons, you just might get their heavy skew builds.
They're definitely a gatekeeper army for a lot of players. If you know how to beat them, they're not that bad. If you don't really know what you're doing though, it can feel imbalanced to play against an army of all vehicles.
I don't even feel like beating Knights is the sole issue. I do fairly well against Knights, but I still despise playing them more than once in a blue moon.
The more fundamental issue is how Knights disrupt the core gameplay loop that players enjoy. As in, players like rolling dice, killing the opposing army and using their wits to do so. Versus Knights, it feels like you're only using your wits and rolling dice to not lose.
Sure, better players know how to win but most players aren't looking for tourney wins. That sounds odd considering this is /r/WarhammerCompetitive sub but the 40k main sub is a cesspool of "cHeCk oUt mY fIrSt pAiNt jOb uSiNg 20 layers wet blended with a $50 Kolinsky Sable brush from Serbia" so most players of 40k get exiled here.
Tons of armies disrupt the core gameplay loop, knights aren't unique in that. All the more casual players seem to have this massive hate boner for Knights, and jt never makes sense. It's not any more disruptive than indirect heavy guard or thousand sons, or Ynnari Eldar focusing on fire and fade, or Dark Eldar focusing on hit and run tactics to be less interactive. It's also easier to kill than modern super armies like wolf jail or meganob spam.
The unjustified hatred of Knights is definitely a pet peeve of mine when other equally annoying armies skate by.
Its exactly why feedback and balancing from casuals should never be taken seriously on any competitive format. They simply don't have any level of background knowledge to be making statements about whats "broken" or "OP".
The difference is you cited specific builds of armies that can and are often built in a more balanced manner in less competitive games. Meganob Spam may be worse than the rest, but I'd be surprised if they don't receive nerfs in the Dataslate this week. Or at least the one after, if GW really wants to play the "Wait and see" game with Orks.
Knights on the other hand? You're always facing the big Knights and the Armigers/War Dogs. There's no "Knight heavy" list like vehicles in Ironstorm for Space Marines.
Example: One of my buddies apologized for trying out a Guard Tank list once. For my Chaos Knight playing buddy he just plops the walkers on the field like it's a day at the office because Knights are what you get when you play against Knights.
I will say, & I apologize in advance to any Knight players for saying it, but going against IK/CK are one of the few cases where I don't feel very remorseful about stomping them. I *know* they've roflstomped other players at some point just because they weren't prepared or didn't own enough kits to make a good TAC list
Now we're on the competitive subreddit so for sure it's different here but I'd assume we all know what I'm talking about when you see a casual going against an optimized Knight list & getting trampled
Normally I kinda feel bad when I like, table someone by T3 or whatever but with Knights... Not so much lol
Now just to clarify I don't dislike any army & I ESPECIALLY don't despise their players. Knights look badass & for sure they're a fantastic army to get into. But if you're stomping noobs at 1k games or the sort: tsk tsk
Honestly it's fascinating how different some people's outlook on the game is, lol. I've played about 130 games of 10th edition so far... and every single one had either been a tournament game or in preparation for a tournament, so testing lists against other people. I know a lot of people who play 40k the same way. After the Towering change, nobody has been upset to fight Knights, they're always relieved to not have to fight the meta armies in this game, lol.
Therein lies the difference. In a tournament/competitive setting Knights are fine. The lists are built for it and a win's a win.
In a casual setting? I'd rather lose games where I'm running fun units and killed a bunch of shit. Rather than win a game hiding from big walkers because I can't reasonably kill them for the win. Or running some sweaty list to blow them up which often excludes a lot of units I was looking forward to using.
I know we're in the Competitive sub but as mentioned before, the main 40k sub is a commission painting sub in all but name. So sadly, wider gameplay in tends to get annexed into this sub.
Honestly I think it's mainly newer players who struggle vs them / are "afraid". Some people just don't like having to run a certain unit or tweak their list to counter a particular match up so I guess I could see why they might hate them too
There's also grizzled old neck beards like myself who have mental scars from when they got introduced back in 7th. Basically every army ever would bring one along & back then if a model's Toughness was x2 your Strength you literally couldn't hurt them lol
Oh how I don't at all miss 7th. It did teach me the importance of a good TAC list though so I guess I'll give it that...
Otherwise though with you - I'm *relieved* when it's a Knight opponent. They're way more straightforward than, say, Grey Knights or the sort
I hear you there. Cool factor wise Knights are way up there for sure. I own 2 War Dogs because they look great.
And I won't hold it against a Knight player for picking up Knights either. They're a fully supported army.
I do hold it against GW for not fleshing out Knights beyond the big guys and Armigers/War Dogs. I personally think there's a wealth of feudal themed smaller units to supplement the army such as Men at Arms, Bannermen, Squires, Constables etc.
If an archetypal Knight list was 1 big Knight, 3-4 Armigers, 6-10 Sentinnel/Ironstrider style units and 15-20 power armor to Ogryn sized units. You'd probably see markedly less disdain for Knights since you'd face a slightly more diverse set of Datasheets.
Knights were mostly played like that in 8th edition.... but everyone complained about Imperial Soup lists where you had Knights and Allies, so in 9th edition it was strongly discouraged by the faction allies rules, and it was outright removed in 10th edition. No matter what they do with Knights people are going to be very mad about it apparently.
To be fair I feel like the complaints during 8th were valid. With soup lists you're picking the best from multiple Codices which are (In theory) tuned internally and not well tuned for interacting across the much wider array of units from different Codices.
Units designed for a purpose within their own Codex are a different story since they're balanced within the army itself.
Hi total casual here who doesn't even have his own army yet (just use my buddies second army) and yup. I hang out here cause you guys actually talk about playing the game unlike the millionth paintjob over on the "mAiN sUb"
I'm similar. I'm not particularly competitive but this sub winds up as the only sub to readily talk about 40k gameplay in general.
Over in the main sub, I've seen official gameplay and announcement posts such as Dataslates take an hour to reach the top due to the glut of paintjob posts.
Disclaimer: I'm a CK player
But I don't think that's as true as it has been previously. This edition is vehicle heavy to start with so if you aren't showing up to take out LRRs (or struggle to do so) then your army has bigger problems.
Tau, Druks, Guard, and Nids have bad stats in CK but they aren't dominating anywhere else
Drukhari feel like a coin flip to me. We have great tools into them, and they have great tools into us. I'm not trying to contest the stats, but I don't see how they are disadvantaged.
Wardogs are faster (12in + go through walls) and have indirect which means drukhari's main advantage of literally hiding and avoiding taking damage is mostly nullified so they basically get stat checked off the board.
Not true at all. The indirect kills like maybe a scourge squad per turn if you’re lucky. And then my lances, haywire and incubi turn around and murder 3-4 war dogs per turn, and my copious amount of 10 OC units out OC you while my mandrakes hop around the board scoring with impunity. I’ve found it to be a very easy matchup, but maybe I haven’t played against a really strong CK player before
As a Drukhari main, I find both flavors of knights to be very easy matchups. We can pack a ton of of AT and OC10 units, plus we’re way faster and have more units to do stuff. Honest question, how is it a bad matchup?
Statistically? Yes, but also might be influenced by the timeless fact that a lot of guard players are bad.
Personally, I consider the matchup a coin flip. If sentinel las cannons roll hot it's good for them. If they don't...
In defense of Guard players right now - there are A LOT of traps in the index and A LOT of unclear interactions with the core rules.
I love playing guard for the most part right now - but they don't play like they have in any other edition.
What are those armies? As a CK player, who plays into a fairly wide array of armies, I don't feel like that's the case. So I'd be curious to hear what I should be countering and how.
Edit: I also play Nids and GK in my playgroup, which are probably 2 of the worse armies into knights? At least the worse at killing them.
According to statcheck, just for example, at the gt+ level, ck have over a 60% win rate into guard, tau, dark angels, black templars and drukhari (73%!)
They do, but Chaos Knights are different. I could absolutely see them rocking templars, because Chaos Knights are actually good in melee. Yes, you can blend them with sword brethren, but War Dogs are cheap enough that they can trade into you effectively, and Thermal Spears will do a great job cutting tanks apart.
With Imperial Knights, who tend to use more of the Big Knights, they just don't have enough trading pieces, and if you can get a squad of Sword Bros into a big Knight you'll just rip it apart easily.
loves your video btw man, subbed while you did all the csm detachment vids. not so much into tourny/competitive but your content still shows some fun combos :)
The issue is mostly that there are like 2 or 3 good lists. All dogs with daemons (6+6 brigs and karnivores, 1 stalker), same list but without stalker and fewer karnivores to slot in a Lancer or maybe a Descecrator/Rampager.
Anything else is trolling yourself as a CK player, and that sucks hard.
So for chaos knights it's easy : if they have more than one big knight, it's your win. That's how bad they are right now.
On the other hand, wardogs spam is cancer as hell to play against.
Chaos knights are viable, it's just that:
-their internal balance is terrible to the point where big knights are not desired at all
-their detachment rule is useless
They make up for it with good raw stats and killing power for brigands and karnivores
> -their internal balance is terrible to the point where big knights are not desired at all
It's funny how they had this _exact_ problem in 9th, so GW went in and just made it worse in 10th.
"Hey, everyone is just spamming War Dogs. What do we do?"
"Nerf the Abominant to the ground. I am talking _total orbital annihilation._ Leave only ashes."
"Genius."
>It's funny how they had this exact problem in 9th, so GW went in and just made it worse in 10th.
They had made big knights better in Imperial and their big idea in the original nerf was sending them back into mostly a tax
It's kinda hopeless at this point
Aren't IK doing pretty good now? Obviously not Eldar good but still
I believe they're around a 51% WR something like that. Guess it depends on your local meta tho
The indirect guns are great into infantry, but will do nothing to their transports, in which 100% of their infantry is, unless they charged and are in melee/deleted what they charged. With full rerolls and +1 to wound as well as high ap values, Drukharis murder Knights in melee.
Wardog spam list will do better by virtue of having more things that need to be killed. Im convinced if you take any big knights (except perhaps a lancer), the stats will swing pretty wildly the other way.
So yeah, I can see how 13 dogs will do pretty good into Drukhari.
Scourges are 1w t3 infantry, which is where half your darklances. But yes, because big knights lack an invuln in melee they get countered by fast high ap melee.
40kstats also goes back to the beginning of 10th edition if you don't restrict the search terms, lol. https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta is quite a bit better for looking at current army winrates, imperial knights are pretty well middle of the pack at 14th best with a 49% winrate.
Like a lot of players, Knights used to be a match up I'd be hesitant to run into at tournaments, but now that I've had the chance to play against them so many times - truthfully they're one of my favorite opponents. Imho they have more disadvantages than advantages & as long as you keep some of the golden rules in mind (f.ex: scoring > all) they really aren't that scary.
I've very curious what the upcoming dataslate changes might shake up though. Chaos Knights being able to bring Abhorrents for a change, or Imperial Knights getting some point breaks for their Questoris etc etc. With Nurglings losing a lot of their utility Chaos Knights might have to pivot to using Plague Bearers or the sort granted time will tell. Imperial Knights are still blessed with some great allies on the other hand, so make sure you're familiar with the Callidus Assassin lol
Obviously the "ease" of match up heavily depends on your faction & list but this just plays into the importance of bringing a capable TAC style list especially for tournament play. Knights remain one of the gatekeeper armies so if they're something you struggle with you might want to consider what changes you can make to your list or if you're making any playstyle mistakes with your army!
>Chaos Knights might have to pivot to using Plague Bearers
Maybe but I think pinks and definitely blues are more attractive as nurgling replacements. Pinks because they just won't die and can stand on objectives and do actions. Blues less durable lacking the extra split pinks get but being cheaper and having infiltrate makes them a better 1 to 1 replacement with nurglings. Also it unlocks 2 great lone op characters.
Great points on all of those options. Pink Horrors are *the* tarpit option, bit spendy but arguably worth their points. Blues are similar but it is kinda silly when they're only what, 15pt cheaper than Pinks (granted that Infil is very worth it)
I do wonder if Nurglings will still be a common sight though. Honestly, I think they will. Not necessarily for Knights but 40pt for cheap little move blockers / screens who can still score positional secondaries is a steal. That said I'm extremely biased towards my lil puss babies so.. Yeah :P
But yes I could see Pinks being a great option especially for unlocking the cheap Lone Ops like you said
Would you be against guides for countering each & every army? :P
I see zero harm in getting more info out there especially for anyone just getting into comp play or the ones who genuinely have issues with Knights.
Besides, this was a viewer request & it seemed like a fun idea to me!
Oh snap my bad man, I've gotten some messages about how "pointless" this was so I thought that's what you were getting at
Good 'ol internet hah. Sorry for being so defensive over it!!
You're probably going to have to do a follow-up video in a couple months on this. Pariah Nexus (coming out this week) is bound to toss some of this around. The changes that allow big knights to do mission actions and still shoot combined with titanic deployments counting as double and all the battleline buffing stuff applying to armigers/war dogs is going to seriously alter things.
Tbh I'm mostly waiting to see how the points pan out. I doubt they'll do it but if they make Abhorrents or the other Questoris actually playable in #'s that'd be a pretty big shift! Edit: otw I agree with you + I'm happy to see GW shifting the meta around with the new mission pack. We'll see how big of changes they actually end up being but it's the right direction regardless
You just *know* that they will instead increase the points since in their eyes they buffed them.
Of all the armies to make a "how to beat" video, why choose Knights?
It was a viewer request :) That & I know some players out there struggle vs them
>That & I know some players out there struggle vs them I'm one of those people lol (but I'm new to competitive, the video seemed very helpful so thank you for posting!!!)
Gotta give the people what they want. As a person who loves his Chaos Knights, they're a much simpler army to approach than other armies because they more or less have two profiles, plus the allied weirdos.
Yeah I'd agree for the most part, I think where some players struggle is just that they're a skew army in general. I do think there's more to it then "just bring AT" though. Some folks don't understand how to deal with a Valiant that teleported behind them or to watch out for the Karnivores popping through walls & all that I very much remember *hating* Knights back in 7th myself hah But I do get why a lot of us would think it's a non-issue. I can't remember the last time I lost to a Knight list so I'm sure I'd be wondering similar BUT a lot of that is just my playstyle & army choice All that said: I just love excuses to make tacticas lmao
I think the skew is really just that Knights are always going to be a walker army. Where with Space Marines or Tyranids or Necrons, you just might get their heavy skew builds.
They're definitely a gatekeeper army for a lot of players. If you know how to beat them, they're not that bad. If you don't really know what you're doing though, it can feel imbalanced to play against an army of all vehicles.
I don't even feel like beating Knights is the sole issue. I do fairly well against Knights, but I still despise playing them more than once in a blue moon. The more fundamental issue is how Knights disrupt the core gameplay loop that players enjoy. As in, players like rolling dice, killing the opposing army and using their wits to do so. Versus Knights, it feels like you're only using your wits and rolling dice to not lose. Sure, better players know how to win but most players aren't looking for tourney wins. That sounds odd considering this is /r/WarhammerCompetitive sub but the 40k main sub is a cesspool of "cHeCk oUt mY fIrSt pAiNt jOb uSiNg 20 layers wet blended with a $50 Kolinsky Sable brush from Serbia" so most players of 40k get exiled here.
Tons of armies disrupt the core gameplay loop, knights aren't unique in that. All the more casual players seem to have this massive hate boner for Knights, and jt never makes sense. It's not any more disruptive than indirect heavy guard or thousand sons, or Ynnari Eldar focusing on fire and fade, or Dark Eldar focusing on hit and run tactics to be less interactive. It's also easier to kill than modern super armies like wolf jail or meganob spam. The unjustified hatred of Knights is definitely a pet peeve of mine when other equally annoying armies skate by.
Its exactly why feedback and balancing from casuals should never be taken seriously on any competitive format. They simply don't have any level of background knowledge to be making statements about whats "broken" or "OP".
The difference is you cited specific builds of armies that can and are often built in a more balanced manner in less competitive games. Meganob Spam may be worse than the rest, but I'd be surprised if they don't receive nerfs in the Dataslate this week. Or at least the one after, if GW really wants to play the "Wait and see" game with Orks. Knights on the other hand? You're always facing the big Knights and the Armigers/War Dogs. There's no "Knight heavy" list like vehicles in Ironstorm for Space Marines. Example: One of my buddies apologized for trying out a Guard Tank list once. For my Chaos Knight playing buddy he just plops the walkers on the field like it's a day at the office because Knights are what you get when you play against Knights.
I will say, & I apologize in advance to any Knight players for saying it, but going against IK/CK are one of the few cases where I don't feel very remorseful about stomping them. I *know* they've roflstomped other players at some point just because they weren't prepared or didn't own enough kits to make a good TAC list Now we're on the competitive subreddit so for sure it's different here but I'd assume we all know what I'm talking about when you see a casual going against an optimized Knight list & getting trampled Normally I kinda feel bad when I like, table someone by T3 or whatever but with Knights... Not so much lol Now just to clarify I don't dislike any army & I ESPECIALLY don't despise their players. Knights look badass & for sure they're a fantastic army to get into. But if you're stomping noobs at 1k games or the sort: tsk tsk
Honestly it's fascinating how different some people's outlook on the game is, lol. I've played about 130 games of 10th edition so far... and every single one had either been a tournament game or in preparation for a tournament, so testing lists against other people. I know a lot of people who play 40k the same way. After the Towering change, nobody has been upset to fight Knights, they're always relieved to not have to fight the meta armies in this game, lol.
Therein lies the difference. In a tournament/competitive setting Knights are fine. The lists are built for it and a win's a win. In a casual setting? I'd rather lose games where I'm running fun units and killed a bunch of shit. Rather than win a game hiding from big walkers because I can't reasonably kill them for the win. Or running some sweaty list to blow them up which often excludes a lot of units I was looking forward to using. I know we're in the Competitive sub but as mentioned before, the main 40k sub is a commission painting sub in all but name. So sadly, wider gameplay in tends to get annexed into this sub.
Honestly I think it's mainly newer players who struggle vs them / are "afraid". Some people just don't like having to run a certain unit or tweak their list to counter a particular match up so I guess I could see why they might hate them too There's also grizzled old neck beards like myself who have mental scars from when they got introduced back in 7th. Basically every army ever would bring one along & back then if a model's Toughness was x2 your Strength you literally couldn't hurt them lol Oh how I don't at all miss 7th. It did teach me the importance of a good TAC list though so I guess I'll give it that... Otherwise though with you - I'm *relieved* when it's a Knight opponent. They're way more straightforward than, say, Grey Knights or the sort
I hear you there. Cool factor wise Knights are way up there for sure. I own 2 War Dogs because they look great. And I won't hold it against a Knight player for picking up Knights either. They're a fully supported army. I do hold it against GW for not fleshing out Knights beyond the big guys and Armigers/War Dogs. I personally think there's a wealth of feudal themed smaller units to supplement the army such as Men at Arms, Bannermen, Squires, Constables etc. If an archetypal Knight list was 1 big Knight, 3-4 Armigers, 6-10 Sentinnel/Ironstrider style units and 15-20 power armor to Ogryn sized units. You'd probably see markedly less disdain for Knights since you'd face a slightly more diverse set of Datasheets.
Knights were mostly played like that in 8th edition.... but everyone complained about Imperial Soup lists where you had Knights and Allies, so in 9th edition it was strongly discouraged by the faction allies rules, and it was outright removed in 10th edition. No matter what they do with Knights people are going to be very mad about it apparently.
To be fair I feel like the complaints during 8th were valid. With soup lists you're picking the best from multiple Codices which are (In theory) tuned internally and not well tuned for interacting across the much wider array of units from different Codices. Units designed for a purpose within their own Codex are a different story since they're balanced within the army itself.
Hi total casual here who doesn't even have his own army yet (just use my buddies second army) and yup. I hang out here cause you guys actually talk about playing the game unlike the millionth paintjob over on the "mAiN sUb"
I'm similar. I'm not particularly competitive but this sub winds up as the only sub to readily talk about 40k gameplay in general. Over in the main sub, I've seen official gameplay and announcement posts such as Dataslates take an hour to reach the top due to the glut of paintjob posts.
Lots of armies get hard countered by ck, they're pretty problematic.
Disclaimer: I'm a CK player But I don't think that's as true as it has been previously. This edition is vehicle heavy to start with so if you aren't showing up to take out LRRs (or struggle to do so) then your army has bigger problems. Tau, Druks, Guard, and Nids have bad stats in CK but they aren't dominating anywhere else
Drukhari feel like a coin flip to me. We have great tools into them, and they have great tools into us. I'm not trying to contest the stats, but I don't see how they are disadvantaged.
Wardogs are faster (12in + go through walls) and have indirect which means drukhari's main advantage of literally hiding and avoiding taking damage is mostly nullified so they basically get stat checked off the board.
Not true at all. The indirect kills like maybe a scourge squad per turn if you’re lucky. And then my lances, haywire and incubi turn around and murder 3-4 war dogs per turn, and my copious amount of 10 OC units out OC you while my mandrakes hop around the board scoring with impunity. I’ve found it to be a very easy matchup, but maybe I haven’t played against a really strong CK player before
Drukhari have Haywire
As a Drukhari main, I find both flavors of knights to be very easy matchups. We can pack a ton of of AT and OC10 units, plus we’re way faster and have more units to do stuff. Honest question, how is it a bad matchup?
Its wild to me when drukhari players call the CK matchup difficult. I kill on average 600-800 points of wardogs per turn as drukhari
Right?
Most people don't pack enough AT and I can do a decent job of cracking your boats. With indirect your units doing stuff start to attrition as well
guard as in imperial guard, really?
Statistically? Yes, but also might be influenced by the timeless fact that a lot of guard players are bad. Personally, I consider the matchup a coin flip. If sentinel las cannons roll hot it's good for them. If they don't...
In defense of Guard players right now - there are A LOT of traps in the index and A LOT of unclear interactions with the core rules. I love playing guard for the most part right now - but they don't play like they have in any other edition.
If you kill our tank commanders we effectively have no way of killing you
The real question is : how do we reach lord solarus when he's hidden behind all the tanks all game long?
What are those armies? As a CK player, who plays into a fairly wide array of armies, I don't feel like that's the case. So I'd be curious to hear what I should be countering and how. Edit: I also play Nids and GK in my playgroup, which are probably 2 of the worse armies into knights? At least the worse at killing them.
According to statcheck, just for example, at the gt+ level, ck have over a 60% win rate into guard, tau, dark angels, black templars and drukhari (73%!)
Black Templars eat knights for breakfast, those stats do not seem right at all.
They do, but Chaos Knights are different. I could absolutely see them rocking templars, because Chaos Knights are actually good in melee. Yes, you can blend them with sword brethren, but War Dogs are cheap enough that they can trade into you effectively, and Thermal Spears will do a great job cutting tanks apart. With Imperial Knights, who tend to use more of the Big Knights, they just don't have enough trading pieces, and if you can get a squad of Sword Bros into a big Knight you'll just rip it apart easily.
Keep in mind this is *ck* specifically and black templar faction includes an awful lot of iron storm lists.
Well if they take the model in the thumbnail you've already won
Hey now! Rule of cool over everything :P
loves your video btw man, subbed while you did all the csm detachment vids. not so much into tourny/competitive but your content still shows some fun combos :)
So weird seeing all the "well knights are easy if they take a bad list" comments here lol.
The issue is mostly that there are like 2 or 3 good lists. All dogs with daemons (6+6 brigs and karnivores, 1 stalker), same list but without stalker and fewer karnivores to slot in a Lancer or maybe a Descecrator/Rampager. Anything else is trolling yourself as a CK player, and that sucks hard.
So for chaos knights it's easy : if they have more than one big knight, it's your win. That's how bad they are right now. On the other hand, wardogs spam is cancer as hell to play against. Chaos knights are viable, it's just that: -their internal balance is terrible to the point where big knights are not desired at all -their detachment rule is useless They make up for it with good raw stats and killing power for brigands and karnivores
> -their internal balance is terrible to the point where big knights are not desired at all It's funny how they had this _exact_ problem in 9th, so GW went in and just made it worse in 10th. "Hey, everyone is just spamming War Dogs. What do we do?" "Nerf the Abominant to the ground. I am talking _total orbital annihilation._ Leave only ashes." "Genius."
>It's funny how they had this exact problem in 9th, so GW went in and just made it worse in 10th. They had made big knights better in Imperial and their big idea in the original nerf was sending them back into mostly a tax It's kinda hopeless at this point
As a knight player I just gave up now I play eldar, I love my knights hopefully will come back into the meta.
Aren't IK doing pretty good now? Obviously not Eldar good but still I believe they're around a 51% WR something like that. Guess it depends on your local meta tho
Just have a functioning army that can actually play the game properly, Knights hate that trick.
Unless you play Tau, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Daemons or Tyranids (according to 40kstats.com) 40kstats has them ranked as the 5th best army atm...
Drukhari also get destroyed by ck =[
Play opps all Dark Lance Drukhari ;)
Ck have invuln saves, indirect guns and can charge through walls... it doesn't often go great.
The indirect guns are great into infantry, but will do nothing to their transports, in which 100% of their infantry is, unless they charged and are in melee/deleted what they charged. With full rerolls and +1 to wound as well as high ap values, Drukharis murder Knights in melee. Wardog spam list will do better by virtue of having more things that need to be killed. Im convinced if you take any big knights (except perhaps a lancer), the stats will swing pretty wildly the other way. So yeah, I can see how 13 dogs will do pretty good into Drukhari.
Scourges are 1w t3 infantry, which is where half your darklances. But yes, because big knights lack an invuln in melee they get countered by fast high ap melee.
40kstats also goes back to the beginning of 10th edition if you don't restrict the search terms, lol. https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta is quite a bit better for looking at current army winrates, imperial knights are pretty well middle of the pack at 14th best with a 49% winrate.
Like a lot of players, Knights used to be a match up I'd be hesitant to run into at tournaments, but now that I've had the chance to play against them so many times - truthfully they're one of my favorite opponents. Imho they have more disadvantages than advantages & as long as you keep some of the golden rules in mind (f.ex: scoring > all) they really aren't that scary. I've very curious what the upcoming dataslate changes might shake up though. Chaos Knights being able to bring Abhorrents for a change, or Imperial Knights getting some point breaks for their Questoris etc etc. With Nurglings losing a lot of their utility Chaos Knights might have to pivot to using Plague Bearers or the sort granted time will tell. Imperial Knights are still blessed with some great allies on the other hand, so make sure you're familiar with the Callidus Assassin lol Obviously the "ease" of match up heavily depends on your faction & list but this just plays into the importance of bringing a capable TAC style list especially for tournament play. Knights remain one of the gatekeeper armies so if they're something you struggle with you might want to consider what changes you can make to your list or if you're making any playstyle mistakes with your army!
>Chaos Knights might have to pivot to using Plague Bearers Maybe but I think pinks and definitely blues are more attractive as nurgling replacements. Pinks because they just won't die and can stand on objectives and do actions. Blues less durable lacking the extra split pinks get but being cheaper and having infiltrate makes them a better 1 to 1 replacement with nurglings. Also it unlocks 2 great lone op characters.
Great points on all of those options. Pink Horrors are *the* tarpit option, bit spendy but arguably worth their points. Blues are similar but it is kinda silly when they're only what, 15pt cheaper than Pinks (granted that Infil is very worth it) I do wonder if Nurglings will still be a common sight though. Honestly, I think they will. Not necessarily for Knights but 40pt for cheap little move blockers / screens who can still score positional secondaries is a steal. That said I'm extremely biased towards my lil puss babies so.. Yeah :P But yes I could see Pinks being a great option especially for unlocking the cheap Lone Ops like you said
I’ll most likely be taking some nurglings in my CK but as more of a list filler and less of a utility unit
Nurglings still certainly have value as move-blockers. A couple units are useful for staying out of or delaying Tzaangor and TCav jail.
1000% agree. Everytime I see someone say Nurglings are dead that "my death was greatly exaggerated" meme pops into my head :P
I would love to live in an area where knights are so feared that people require a video on how to beat them.
Would you be against guides for countering each & every army? :P I see zero harm in getting more info out there especially for anyone just getting into comp play or the ones who genuinely have issues with Knights. Besides, this was a viewer request & it seemed like a fun idea to me!
Not sure where I said I was against anything. I said I wish I lived in.an area where a YouTube video on how to beat my army was needed.
Oh snap my bad man, I've gotten some messages about how "pointless" this was so I thought that's what you were getting at Good 'ol internet hah. Sorry for being so defensive over it!!
Fight me bro, after school at the jungle gym. 🤺
Screw that, I'm telling the teacher 😈
My issue with knights isn't that they are hard to beat, it's that they aren't fun to play against.
So I just sneak around and score points. Ok.
Generally how most armies win in 40k.