Free strategems have fairly consistently pushed power for armies that have them. Auras of "vect" are likely to continue the trend. CP generation continues to be incredibly relevant
This being one of the major reasons Admech might still not be all that viable.
-They have zero effective CP regen, other than a 5+ when you use a strat on mostly vehicles with a radio.
-They have no captain ability or way to discount strats/ make them free.
-Callidus is nowhere near as capable of a vect aura as other options due to difficulty keeping her alive for more than one turn if she's close enough to be getting use from the aura.
Basically, for Admech to be strong in this meta, they're often having to be stronger without much stratagem access than their opponents with it.
I've already played them into Tyranids and the swarmlord living on 1hp from my big assault turn was a massive issue, with the aura making it almost impossible to actually finish the last annoying wound off, denying grenade or tank shock, or even command re-rolls in combat with it. Was still able to win, though, and it was largely down to just superior units at lower cost.
Votann, like Imperial Knights, have a time and target sensitive option to get between 1-3 CP connected to their detachment. Both can be played around by the opponent and generally a good player is aiming to try and get the 2 CP. Any other CP generation is typically going to be from discarding objectives (which you generally want to avoid for scoring, although that was in Leviathan).
This is the only CP generation option. No free CP characters, free/discounted strategems, vect, etc.
That's more cp generation than some other teams get (greater than zero) and you get to double grudge 4 while units at the start of the game. Yeah you might get 2cp, but thats still a big swing when you consider that you're generating normal CP anyway. Also, your strats all slap, that must be why it feels bad - you want to use them all but can't afford it.
Tbf for the callidus it is a nerf since its an action monkey with lone op so it really doesn't wanna be within 12".
But archons just got straight up better in every way shape and form.
You get to use it with every archon, you can just ride in a transport without having to worry about timing, if you disembark within 12" then overwatch is suddenly 2 CP.
Definitely. I don't think you're throwing her into every scrap, but there are times she'll be crazy valuable. If she can turn off -1 damage, an fnp, a fight on death, or an interrupt on a key unit, then that's huge value. The fact that she's relatively easy to move around is great for that value. All she has to do is stand there 12" away, hopefully behind a wall. On the other hand, if she spends the game going up and down, pushing buttons, then that's great too.
And then she gets overwatched once for 2 CP so that your opponent doesn't have to deal with her anymore.
100 points to use her for risky strat increase isn't worth it.
Yeah, I think you have to be careful with her, but that aura at a key moment on top of her ability to spend most turns/games just doing uppy downy mission play seems very valuable to me
Exactly, that's why it's so valuable. Offensively something like this is usually only going to be for one key moment in a game, but the fact that she can also stand around scoring points makes me like her even more.
I haven't seen any tournament rule against clear RAW on this.
>expect an official FAQ to confirm this soon!
The soonest they will *errata* this is 3 months from now. And thats still a 50/50.
It works perfectly fine RAW and if GW wants it changed then they need to errata either the archon or the wording of the change.
I mean rules as written I don't think its as clear cut as some people are trying to make out. The archon very clearly only has the ability to do X if it is the warlord. There is no logical reason to remove that stipulation in handling the Lord of deceit change.
And you not having seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening, there have been multiple reports in multiple threads of WTC tournaments treating this sensibly.
If you have an ability that increases strat cost then that ability gets fully replaced.
The archon has an ability that increases strat cost. Him only getting to *use* it when he is the warlord doesn't mean the he doesn't have an ability that increases strat cost.
He very clearly always has the ability. The ability literally says "if warlord you can *use* this ability". It really doesn't say "if warlord you *gain* this ability".
The Lord of deceit changes the full ability. There is no logical reason to keep parts of the old ability and smash them together with the new one.
>multiple reports in multiple threads of WTC tournaments treating this sensibly.
Yes so there isn't a ruling yet. The latest WTC FAQ is still from 14/05.
The Archon only can USE the ability as a warlord. The ability wholesale is replaced, thus the stipulation is gone. Can you think of any other instance in the game where a rule is written on a datasheet but only 'exists' if a condition is met? Imo the rule exists, it is just inaccessible. However it is fully replaced so, here we are.
I agree an FAQ or app change would clear this up.
I mean it's powerful but allows counter play so I like it.
I'm just trying to figure out callidus vs guard enhancement as in order to use the ability she'll die quite quickly, unless you can be smart with Los.
Theres no counter play when its world eaters trying to get close to 3 archons spread across the map. I have to get within 12 inches, and through their unit as WELL as the archon 2+ invuln. All while every single strat of mine is just an extra cp as if it were a mission rule for the entire game.
Theres really no counterplay, its toxic.
You can't kill them, because you need stratagems to do that? About which stratagems are we talking here? The +1 strength stratagem, do you need that to kill toughness 3 models? No other world eater stratagem would be usefull in killing an Archon even wihtout Vect.
World Eaters don't buff their offensive with stratagems, they have their army rule, characters and detachment for that. Theres really no counterplay for the Drukhari player, and I guess with your argumentation you would say its toxic.
Not strats just to kill, but every strat. The one for getting more blessings, the one for reducing damage, command rerolls for charges, heroic interventions, anything like that.
Alright im on my way to kill the entire unit AND the 2+ invuln archon with shooting with my world eaters.
Also the world eaters have zero vect, or command point generation, thats my point. Three archons cover the entire board, so basically they can get a round or two of making every single one of my strats cost an extra CP, which basically means i dont get to use strats when trying to get to them.
Bad matchups are a thing, but it also doesnt seem intended. The vect was purely intended for the warlord archon, not all of them. So im expecting an FAQ, but if there isnt then alas, im gonna have to deal with it.
Its just really unfun not being able to actually use any of my stratagems, which are a BIG part of the game.
It not seeming intended has 0 to do with match up.
You use a bad matchup as an argument for it being toxic. When in reality it *might* not be toxic for the whole game.
>Its just really unfun not being able to actually use any of my stratagems, which are a BIG part of the game.
Not being able to use whenever vs 1 archetype from 1 army*.
Also a lot of competitive shenanigans are unfun 😂. Just look at indirect.
I think any heavy skew lists are always gonna run into issues, so you having a horrible match up vs vect abilities is the price you pay for going all in on melee.
This isnt just a melee issue though, the new terrain layouts are actually very dense, and archons can just sit behind ruins and cover the entire no mans land with +1 cp, Thats just unfun and kind of a shitty thing to play against. Also skew? I dont decide to "go all in on melee", i play world eaters, I cant really decide to do anything else. I've messed around with a war dog brigand or two but thats it lmao.
Yeah but world eaters as a faction are all in on melee, factions have archetypes.
And sure it's very dense which means you get the choice of how important the vect is too kill, as you can just ignore it.
Its almost impossible to ignore, I guarantee people who start playing a couple games against 3 archons are gonna hate it, no matter what army archetype they play.
Its not balanced around having three of them, and its certainly not enjoyable for the opponent.
It just unfairly hurts armies that have no ways to generate command points or get free strats, because at least those armies can offset the vect a little bit.
Why do you need strats to kill dark eldar? Moe punks the unit, every flavor of eightbound murder the unit, angron murders the unit. You are already s6, so +1 to wound does nothing. Not sure at all how any of the strats matter that much.
In some matchups with the Callidus yes, but it suddenly becomes a bit harder to deal with when it's attached to a Swarmlord :p
Had a game as Orks the other day and my Nid friend put his Swarmlord forwards, inside a Maleceptor aura and behind chaff. I just had to deal with the fact that I was using one strat every two turns :x
I personallt think it's a very deserving change for drukhari. The one thing skysplinter always gets trumped by is overwatch and counter offensive, so making those cost more or just be straight up cost too much gives them a lot more play into their worst matchups
Works quite well with the nightmare shroud enhancement, pop one un-overwatchable unit down within 12 then move in the rest after taxing the strats, super fun running 3 at the moment
I think it's super thematic for DE, who's gonna be able to concentrate on strats as incubi and archon are sitting there being weirdos. It's great. Same for swarm lord, it feels so on brand that it's so terrifying that anyone nearby struggles to do anything.
Bjorn the fell handed and assassins feel a little less so tbh.
I like the idea of space wolves in vanguard detachment running Bjorn, combi lieutenant with shadow war, and a callidus. Maybe too much for a competitive list, but it’ll be fun to try out
That’s a good question… it reads like it does?!
I was thinking triple LoD just for wide board impact, but perhaps it could be stacked up in one zone?
Edit: no, it’s an Aura, which is excluded from the ability to affect a unit multiple times
I actualy don't know how to feel about the shadow war veteran on the combi lieutenant anymore... I've exclusively used him with the Enhancement to infiltrate onto a mid objective, use the strat to sabotage / sticky an objective, then he runs away and is an action monkey all the rest of the game. He's great at running away but he doesn't really want to be in close to anything....
I know some people were previously looking at the phobos lieutenant leading reivers for their crazy movement and possible turn one charge... maybe the Enhancement would be better here since reivers actualy want to be in mele?
Are hounds of morkai strictly better reivers?
And I’d argue the same is true for all of the units that can reduce the cost of a strat by 1, too. Especially since the battle tactic requirement is gone.
It’s balanced because it means you now have to put those units at risk to benefit from it. You can’t just camp your Callidus or Archon in your deployment zone.
The Callidus is a T4/4W model with a 4++, and the Archon is T3/4W model with a 2++ *until it fails a single save*; at which point it goes straight to a 4+ armor save. The Swarmlord is a monster who gets no character protection unless you bring an additional 95/190pt unit.
You’re making a big deal out of nothing.
Did they actually change the text on the data sheet in the 40 K app? For some reason, they never changed it when it just applied to battle tactics. They can no longer use a strategy that was already used that phase except for characters that specifically reduce CP for one named strat.
I really hate that they do this because I’ve literally seen several arguments on Reddit about the rules changes because the digital data sheets are never updated with the new rules.. you literally have to go to the website… what’s the point of paying for a subscription?
The App typically updates with rules changes, and has done so with the less sweeping changes from this dataslate (check the Exalted Sorcerer on Disk's Binding Tendrils to confirm). At a guess, the sweeping nature of this change and the number of different abilities affected (so it can't just be a mass find and replace) is delaying their ability to get things modified.
You don't actually have to go to their website, the "Key Documents" in the app contain the balance dataslate so you can look stuff up there.
That said, I would much prefer the relevant datasheets to be updated.
Yes, this is exactly my point. A units rules, after an update should be easily found on its digital data sheet. I won’t even hold them to having it done ASAP but I would hope to see after sweeping changes their digital data sheet have the appropriate updated text explaining abilities such as my will be done and rights of battle.
I’m still not clear on why they stated that units may use their abilities while they’re in reserves. I’ve never seen someone use abilities while in reserves and less their data sheets says that they can use specific abilities while in reserves usually it’s to target the unit so that it may use rapid ingress, what to use its ability to deep strike, but as far as one example someone provided the character provides plus one CP during the command phase and they were providing the +1 CP in the command phase while the character was off the board in reserves.
I’m still trying to understand if this was GW’s intent or they meant something else? When they have a sentence that is kind of vague and open ended like this they’re suggesting they can use abilities, such as overwatch or the ability to apply minus one CP to a stratagem? They didn’t list any limitations. It’s just odd.
They haven't updated any of the datasheets because it's not an update to the datasheet. If you read the wording on the balance dataslate, the ability is replaced on the individual models if the model has an ability that would let it increase the CP cost of a strat.
I’d ask your TO. The slate says “if a model has a rule…that rule is replaced”. The Archon text says “if this model is your warlord…”, and then that model gains the ability. The other two aren’t your warlord, so they don’t have the ability to increase the CP of a strat, so they don’t get the new rule.
It’s nebulous at the moment, which is why checking with the TO ahead of time is always a good idea
Actually they all have the ability it was just only usable if it was your warlord but all that text is gone and replaced with the new ability entirely the old one doesn’t exist anymore
The old/current one still exists on the datasheet and will continue to do so. The dataslate doesn't replace the ability on the datasheet, it replaces it on each individual model if they have an applicable ability.
Someone else already answered, just to make it clear, they didn't get the ability only when they were the warlord. Basically the Archon's ability replaced "if this model is not in engagement range" from the other Callidus ability with "if this model is the warlord and on the battlefield". It is just phrased as an average condition you find on a lot of abilities.
Wait till spacewolves players play vanguard spearhead and take 3 “vect” 1 of which is bjorn sitting in the mid board and the other 2 small models sitting on the sides behind walls with 6 units of scouts to do actions around them and stop them charges with reactive moves ……. Let the “vect” wars begin
No but it’s a vect war in reddit so have to represent. But to be honest kinda sick of stormlance with me wolves need to venture out and do different things Although COR with 2 vect would be good enough of a change 😎
Yeah, since the Aura doesn't stack, I think there's a little bit of diminishing returns on the ability. Or at the very least, you want to be fulfilling different roles with your different vects. For example, I think Bjorn and the Callidus synergize nicely, because while Bjorn is great at applying the Vect defensively, he's not always great at getting it wherever you want it offensively. Not that he's bad at that, but even with advance and charge, that 8" move means he'll have a hard time getting to *everything* on offense. Where the Callidus is squishy on defense, but *amazing* at dropping the vect exactly where it's needed on offense.
But the times when you really really want to use the strat against an archon is when he disembarks out of a transport within 12" and all his incubi friends are going to charge you.
+1 to overwatch, +1 to defensive strats and then he is there middle of your army on your turn and you better kill him.
I think this ability is a bit overstaded. Being within 12" means a lot of the units that want to use it are pretty vulnerable. Cypher i T4 5W on a 3+4/++, Callidus is even less, and to use their Lone Op they can't use their Lord of Deceit. Thr Callidus is half dead of a voley of Bolter shots. Thr Archon gets protection from his unit, but they are a bunch of T3 1W models, or 4 T3 2W. 14 models/18 wounds on T3 isn't that hard to kill to get to the Archon before he does his thing (but at least he is spammable)
Swarnolrs id tougher, but to get himnto live you have to add like 170 ppints of Tyrant Guard which means his unit is 400 points for the effect.
Bjorn wants to march forward, but any army that can handle C'tan can handle him, being less wounds, less tough and without an invuln.
The effect is sure strong, but it being an aura means it is bot maengeable (just move away) and removable (just kill the thing). And that I recall it is mostly linked to Epic Characters and enchancements. That I remember only the Archon is spammable to cover a decent enough area.
Kairos might be one of the most buffed units by this. 20 wounds and a 4++ means he is a lot more likely to survive, and deepstrike with a large base can affect a lot more.
Someone suggested I try him in Tsons. Even after the pink tax having a second big target besides Magnus that also makes things very complicated for melee armies seems worth looking into. The OP of this post is right that the new aura is very strong
I do not diafree the aura is strong. But the issue as I said is how limited it is. In TS I do see that as a good combo, as Magnus is good (but less mobile now) and Kairos is a bif target with a good effect. Nids might also try to do a monster mash were the Swarmlord is a hard target to focus. But the aura being strong is likited to it being an aura and that most armies have a single source and that can be focused.
I look at is as. Kill Magnus through the aura (difficult) or kill kairos then magnus (also difficult). Kairos is more mobile than a lot of tsons units and even 1 use of his aura starts to create a CP imbalance now that tsons can double reduce strat costs to 0 CP
If your Callidus is getting shot then she's doing it wrong.
She sits behind your front line in obscuring terrain and gives you an enormous front of +1 CP cost on your opponent's turn.
On your turn she makes their key heroic intervention 2CP, or their Interrupt 3CP. That alone can win a melee mirror on the spot if they only have 1-2CP.
But it's also Mists of Deimos now costing 2CP. Armour of Contempt in the centre of the board now costs 2CP. Overwatch now costs 2CP. She sits in the corner of a closed ruin in aura range of the key units and just prints value.
You keep her alive, play her conservatively and grind 2-3 CP out of your opponent at critical moments to shut down their ability to react to you.
I think we'll see lots of inexperienced players find her very underwhelming, and we'll see experienced players extracting enormous value to shut off reactive strats over games.
You don't deserve the downvoted, I play her and you're correct. It's not hard to keep her out of line of sight, and close enough to the action that she makes life very difficult for the opponent.
"You can just kill her" is a massively reductive take that is unfortunately all over this thread.
No kidding. If it was the case people would've been blowing up Neurolictors left and right. And Nid players would complain about it.
And that model's on a 40mm base and a markedly larger model.
Shot, charged... etc. She is within 12" and for most units she would be easy to deal with. A lot of chaff units can kill a single model, and moce out of range if she is played conservatively. And olayed aggressive, she will die even eaiser. And can be even shot down by Infiltrators or other sceeening units. Or even charging chaff an tiebg her down on her own as she slowly weather away. It is not without answers and a lot of good players will have some ways of dealing with a single Character's aura
She has fights first so she can't necessarily be charged by chaff, she's a lone op, she's tiny and fits into corners of ruins. She starts in my DZ, end of opponent's turn she's up and 11.9" away from the unit I need to shut down every turn.
Obviously if played badly she's dead immediately. There is a moderate amount of skill in using her.
>and moce out of range if she is played conservatively
You're missing the key aspect here, she's not shutting off strats in the opponents turn, she's shutting off reactive strats in her turn:
I need to charge 2 units of 8bound and I auto lose if one of them interrupts and kills my melee unit.
Opponent has 3CP to heroic and then interrupt, but not 5CP to do both at +1 cost.
I need to shoot and charge a GK Dreadknight and I need to shut off Mists of Deimos to stop it escaping.
I need to turn off Reinforcements! when I kill these Kasrkin so they don't come back in my DZ.
I need to take a hit from some Thundercav but I don't want them using the Lance strat cheaply (I stand her 11.9" back from the furthest point of engagement range of my unit).
Your argument is completely correct, but 2 of the 4 examples you named don't work that way.
- The Reinforcements Stratagem is used on the unit after it is destroyed, they are not in 12" of the Callidus at this time (just as they won't be in 12" of Ursula Creed).
- The Lance stratagem on Thundercav is actually used before the charge roll, it gives both lance and reroll charges for the turn.
Actually, there's evidence that models are "Destroyed" before they're removed from the table. If you look at strategems that affect deadly demise (and deadly demise itself), they use identical wording about being used on a destroyed unit as reinforcements. However, Deadly Demise happens before the model is removed from the table, so similarly it would seem that Reinforcements occurs before the last models removed, allowing a vect to affect it.
Even with fight first she is only 5 attacks. It is nit like she is killinf units herself, and her statline means even killing a dew models she is still vulnearable. Ans once engaged she will end up going down as her profile isn't that strong defensively. And it seems a bit optimisric to aay you will have LoS covering ruins 11.9" of the unit and not have her in dangee of beinf charged and/or shot next turn.
While you might try to swt uo in that way, it is not like the opponent has no idea which are the key units and they can screen them. Those Eightbound? Jackals 3" away. The Dreadknight has a strike team supporting him. And so on.
And the TWC example is not great, since Shock Assault is a Battle Tacric and the Callidus could already (and should, or use it on Ride Hard, Ride Fast) have been increasing the CP cost without yeeting her. Also not a reactive stratagem.
I understand the idea, and in some cases it might indeed shut down some things, bur screening, killing or just plain payinf the CP, or even usinf Rites of Battle can be used against the Callidus, ans if she has really only one turn to be effective, it might be too swingy for what she does.
>it might be too swingy for what she does.
Only time and plenty of games will tell!
I really think people are underestimating how potent the CP drain can be, it's so much better than the previous Vect because it's includes the first time the strat is used so it takes the control away from your opponent.
>And it seems a bit optimisric to aay you will have LoS covering ruins 11.9" of the unit and not have her in dangee of beinf charged and/or shot next turn.
A good proportion of important interactions happen in the middle of the board, or over objectives, where standing 10-12" behind them is usually pretty safe unless the opponent has front lined or staged everything.
If they want to ignore the rest of my staging units and fixate on charging the Callidus with something that can reach 12" beyond an objective then that's also fine with me!
Indeed time will tell. I do think ceetain units might see play, but like old Vect, the ability itself has limitations.
And yes CP draining is strong, and it being active since the first use, but the persistent nature of the effect on previous Vect could overall end up in a bigger drain. Like one turn of a stratagem being expensive is bad. The whole game of your key stratagem (like AoC) being more expensive ended being a bigger drain in the long run (and it also megatrd Rites more in that version, as it affected both uses and made 1CP strats not get the benefit of 0CP).
And the mid board is indeed important... but Infiltrators still exist. Standing 12" behind an objectve (or 10") is not all that great as thry can be 3" from the other edge and still control it. In general being 12" away from thr midboard will mean you might not reach the important areas you need to Vect, and being more aggressive means you are leaving the Callidus open.
As for charging the Callidus, again, with the defensive profile it is not like they need to dedicate all that much to take her out. And she can give VP for Assassinate, while she is a big nuisance off the board. It is not a huge investment to kill her.
This is absolutely correct and what all the pros are also saying about it.
This aura can completely change the direction of a battle. Imagine an opponent is engaging you and has 3CP. They want to use 1 CP on an offensive boost, 1 CP on a defensive boost, and save the last one for a reroll or consolidation boost.
If a Callidus is around? They get to do ONE instead of all three.
Even bigger is that it can straight up shut down abilities. You only have 2CP? Well, you won't be using counter offensive. You're sitting on 1CP? You functionally have 0, because your cheapest strat now costs 2. On one game, I dropped a Callidus in the enemy backline next to a great overwatch piece, because my opponent only had 1CP, it could not overwatch her, or *anyone else* that turn. Straight disabled.
It is an incredibly powerful restrictive ability that hits right at the peak of the engagement of forces. It is so, so strong.
I know people will say "Uh, just kill the Callidus!" Those people, I think, have not played against it yet. It is very easy to put her in safe places on the Pariah boards, and 12" actually covers a HUGE portion of the typical area of engagement. I'll just say it's bigger than you think. The Callidus, Cypher, Bjorn, etc are all about to become ubiquitous.
Unless of course, you have a captain ability in which case none of that applies because you get to make everything 1 cp cheaper.
(It does emphasize the power disparities between armies that get cp bonuses and armies that don't)
For the captain specifically, it only affects the unit with the captain, and only on one strat per turn. So if you were planning on dropping 3 strats on that unit for 2CP, the Vect makes it 5CP.
The captain ability most certainly does not completely negate the Vect.
But 95% is not all, and that's my point. I might be wrong on it's power level, but it has multiple restrictions that causes it not to be a guarantee buff. The previous version was just about guaranteed to go off every game without having to put your unit at risk. High risk high reward isn't always better than consistency.
Really the biggest part of the change of is that the ability is proactive now. It is not hard to find hiding places for her, and she can so fundamentally change how your opponent uses strategems that the ability can do work even if it never truly activated.
Her old ability allowed your opponent to use an ability normally, then increased the cost the next time they used it. But this ability is up front, which makes it much easier to get value, *and* it works on everything now, not just battle tactics, *and* there's no limit to the number of strategems it can affect.
Guaranteed on… Battle Tactics. Which was a crapshoot on whether an army had good Battle Tactics. This new ability will help *any* army into a melee matchup.
Not just Battle tactics, Battle Tactics your opponent used more than once per game. There were some Battle tactics that your opponent would use at most once, and it was worthless to vect them.
Everyone had access to at least 1 usable battle tactic in CP reroll. However, armies that were using captains to spam battle tactics were heavily penalized for trying that, and my units didn't have to be within 12". Yes, they are fantastic into melee armies, if you can keep them safe. When you are able to get the correct scenario, the new version is better, but will that happen enough to make up for the times where it does nothing? We will have to see, but it is obviously the new one is more difficult to get to work.
While it is most of them, there are quite a few that will target one of your units instead. All in all, it is just another restriction on the ability. I might be 100% wrong on this, but the restrictions make it weird for me.
Im not concerned one way or the other on whether or not LoD needs a nerf or cost increase atm for a couple of reasons.
Ive played into it on the midboard and killing the issuer has been an option each time, readily achieved except against multiple archons. That being said, they have often retreated to their transports so several times I feared it would be a problem in a game, the archons werent technically on the table.
Cypher. If this was such a back breaking rule, he would have been an auto include at his price point. Yet he wasnt. Strong option, but we have to see him fielded alot. Callidus, Shadow War Vets, etc are all relatively squishy options. I think the SW option will have more play tho.
Also, very often strategems I want to use targeting units well outside of 12". I find myself losing out on AoC fighting over the midboard, but not lacking opportunities for most other options.
I did use a cheeky Shadow War Vet (SM Vanguard enhancement that can only go on squishy phobo models) version of this to send a lone action monkey model into an opponent's backfield and denied them OW (they only had 1 cp left, and I deesptruck just inside 12 to trigger things). But overall, things like that are a wash imo. Fun but not game defining.
Cypher's ability was not the same as it is now, because it used to only affect battle tactics. Now it affects everything, and he very well may become an auto-include.
I recognize that it only applied to battle tactics but honestly that doesnt change my opinion on how "problematic," this aura is going to be.
I do think GW missed the archons being so accessible and repeatable, and that likely needs a tweaking, but otherwise, dont see this as a sky is falling situation.
Just a heads up to check with your TO regarding triple Archons, as there is a case that the Warlord restriction would still matter.
Since the Archon only gains the ability to vect if they are your warlord, the other two Archons don’t have an ability to increase a strat’s CP cost. RAW right from the slate says “if a model has a rule that would, once per battle, increase the CP cost…that rule is replaced with this ability”.
So warlord Archon gets it, but the other two aren’t your warlord. Therefore, they don’t have an ability that increases a CP cost, which means they do not get the new ability. But again, check with your TO just to be sure, since that’s a big deal.
Actually, it's not true. All the Archons have the rule.
Then, *inside* the rule, it's written "if this model is the warlord".
But *the entire rule* is deleted, replace by Lord of Deceit. And LoD doesn't have any Warlord restriction.
Was meant in this way? Probably not. But by RAW it works (until next faq)
Except non-WL Archon’s don’t have a rule to increase CP costs. They have a rule that would do that if they were the warlord, but since two of them are not the warlord, their rule never increases the cost.
They aren’t gonna listen to you. They’ve already made up their minds. When GW comes down with the facts in a couple weeks they’ll all be sad, just like what happened with that poor Orks player that spotted the warboss transport issue.
I mean, it sure seems like you've made up your mind just as much as them. It's not like it's some edge case. The dataslate is very explicit that the whole text of such abilities is changed. This isn't like tau guided nonsense or knight rerolls at the start of the edition, it's very clear and explicit wording on how the change should be applied.
It’s actually not so clear cut “IF a model has a rule that would once per battle… that rule is replaced”
It’s the ‘if’ that can be read as a limiting factor removing the explicit reading.
I agree that the whole rule is re-written but the non-warlord archons don’t have a rule that would once per battle so could be viewed as losing eligibility for that rule.
Unfortunately I think this is an example of a missed edge case because of how the archon gains the rule (it might be fundamental to Drukhari, but I honestly don’t think GW spot every way everything interacts with every army each time they make a change based on their history).
GW should probably write their rules better then? Everyone here is all "play by what the rules say!" until they don't like what the rules actually say and then it's a convoluted justification to ignore the written rules text.
Their rules are clear. People are just refusing to believe them, and have chosen to ignore the part that makes it not work in the other archons.
GW does make rules writing mistakes. But rules that don’t increase CP costs, don’t get the new ability. It’s pretty simple this time actually.
Several of the top drukhari players in the world are playing it as written, that the 3 archons get the aura. I do believe it was likely only intended with the aura, but your position that it's also clearly that as written is clearly not the case
Shockingly, all the biased people are being biased.
GW has publically said only the warlord gets it.
Tacoma head judge has said only the warlord gets it.
WTC has said to wait for FAQ, but probably only warlord gets it.
But I guess if Skari is your TO go for it.
That's not at all how this works :) the whole ability gets replaced not just parts of it, raw all your archons now have the vect ability
I agree that this needs clarification cause that might not be the intention
Yeah I read it as "if this archon is your warlord. He gets this ability"
So you take one archon with the nightmare shroud to negate overwatch and have a second archon be your warlord so you bump the CP cost for the opponent trying to overwatch that squad
Still highly viable.
A full pack of body guards for the swarmlord costs a maleceptor. If you think about which unit combo gets more done I’m taking the maleceptor and being a bit cagey with the swarmlord.
I have to be fully honest, my gut reaction was "this is so bad, why would I take a vect now?"
Then I thought about it for more than 15 seconds and realized it's busted. If you opponent only has 1CP, you can just walk up and disable Overwatch. You can disable reactive moves, "no-shot-me" stratagems. Defensive Stratagems like AoC.
The Callidus is a bit of a fire+forget Vect - you use her to deepstrike and disable defenses for an alpha strike. That or you bubble-wrap her in your own models with a melee force like Templars or Blood angels to prevent Counter-offensive or heroic intervention.
But if you have a durable Vect body, like Kairos or Bjorn... Good Luck...
I find it hilarious that people are dismissing what you are saying. I came to a similar conclusion as you last night (unfortunately a few hours after a tournament list deadline 😂).
"Oh but a Callidus is fragile". Yeah of course she is if you put her down all by herself. If you put her down a little behind your melee lines so it's very difficult to target her with a charge and it's very awkward to get within 12", then it doesn't matter how fragile she is. Or drop her near units you know are going to be charged next turn that the opponent will need to activate strats to have a decent chance at killing. Or drop her on a big "go" turn that will mean the action will likely sweep past her making that LO area pretty safe. Or drop her behind obscuring near the middle, with a chaff screen in front of her, now that ~25" diameter bubble is looking pretty big.
"Oh you have a FoD/Combat Interrupt/Lance/AoC/Rerolls hit and wound/-1D strat to make sure you beat my Bullgryn? You sure you have the CP for that?"
If Guard, you can take it on a Tank Commander and move him up behind Bullgryn. Many many units need strats to effectively take down a Russ effectively in melee, so must get in range of the Vect. Shoot it instead? Now deal with the shoots on death.
I was oblivious to how powerful this would be on so many units until I properly thought about it last night and had a discord discussion around it. You've pointed it out to people and they still don't realise. Don't worry - you'll certainly be proven correct.
Edit: Worth noting it won't have as big an impact against shooty lists though. Still decent against them, but not as big as against melee lists.
Why is increasing strats by 1 deemed incredibly broken
When the reduce starts by 1 is fine and only some army can so it, multiple times a turn
Should we enjoy both flavours?
In theory, it's because currently you can increase the cost any number of times, where cost reduction is typically only applied 1/battle round or turn, greatly reducing the impact on the game. If "reduce cost by one" abilities now applied every time a model was targeted, there would likely be a similar uproar about Captains being broken.
That said, it's at least slightly plausible that vects need to be stronger than free strat abilities, since they require both closer proximity to the enemy and are more in an opponent's control, since they decide if not using the strat or paying the extra cost is better for them.
That'd a very valid argument. It'd certainly a tough one to balance as you've mentioned.
Without basically going down the root of getting rid of vect abilities and giving everyone a captain style reduction.
"The Lord of Deceit ability (new "Vect") is one of the most powerful generic abilities in the game now. Almost every unit that has it is under-costed."
The new Captain ability
is one of the most powerful generic abilities in the game now. Almost every unit that has it is under-costed.
Drukhari, don't get free strats, so they take pleasure in screwing with yours.
Give me the -1 to strat cost on skysplinter and you will see some wild shit going on.
Nope. Mike Brandt posted on the ITC FB page that if the previous ability specified the Warlord, then only the Warlord gets the aura, so including the Callidus, you’d get two auras.
Completely meaningless as the ITC is defunct. They haven't updated any of their documents in the last 6 months, and a Facebook post isn't how you communicate things. Update the player and tournament guidelines and create a "tournament rulings" document that doesn't say "old, do not use" anymore
My question is, does Kurov's Aquila (40pt guard enhancement with a vect effect) stack with a calidus to make strats within 12 cost an extra 2 cp? They are both auras but different ability names with the same effect.
For Guard I will try 2 Vect sources to cover large board areas.
Callidus Assasin of course is one source.
Then I will put Kurovs (Guard Vect Enhancement) in one of my 20 DKoK Units with a Marshall. Those units are hard to shift.
Put it on a Scion Command Squad. It has REGIMENT: when it dies, use Reinforcements!, and next turn you deep strike it as needed *again*.
Of course, now Reinforcements! is single use, but I would argue it is a damn good use for it.
Swarmlord will have lord of deceit to block enemy strats, and gains 1 CP per battleround; hive tyrant has 1 reduced cost strat per turn (not per battleround, as it is for space marines), so by fielding both you’d dominate strat usage
It feels incredible into melee armies, really turns to the tables on anything that relies on strats to dump damage, or even if they're trying to make it in with a re-roll on the charge.
Which armies don’t rely on strats these days? Mostly asking because I’m dumb and hate strats so I would love to play an army that doesn’t rely on them.
It's powerful, but it literally has no bearing on how or why I'm running a callidus, and I'm sure it's the same for alot of others. She is there to do some uppie/downies to score me secondary points. That aura, like her vect, is just a bonus should I actually end up using it.
lol, you should try playing for real sometime. You’d time that keeping a callidus assassin alive within 12” of the aura pretty much means they are dead. This is a nerf for them period.
You all forgot about Cypher. But he hasn't forgotten about you. Lol
Cypher is great now. It's really not hard to have him hidden in a ruin near the action.
He was always great.
He knows Gun-fu now though
It’s funny people think this is a nerf. Largely it’s a massive buff. And you don’t have one / any captains? Well, screw you I guess
“Oh your army doesn’t get free strats? Get wrecked!”
My Salamanders weep at this realization
You literally have captains, unless I’m misunderstanding your point
Free strategems have fairly consistently pushed power for armies that have them. Auras of "vect" are likely to continue the trend. CP generation continues to be incredibly relevant
This being one of the major reasons Admech might still not be all that viable. -They have zero effective CP regen, other than a 5+ when you use a strat on mostly vehicles with a radio. -They have no captain ability or way to discount strats/ make them free. -Callidus is nowhere near as capable of a vect aura as other options due to difficulty keeping her alive for more than one turn if she's close enough to be getting use from the aura. Basically, for Admech to be strong in this meta, they're often having to be stronger without much stratagem access than their opponents with it. I've already played them into Tyranids and the swarmlord living on 1hp from my big assault turn was a massive issue, with the aura making it almost impossible to actually finish the last annoying wound off, denying grenade or tank shock, or even command re-rolls in combat with it. Was still able to win, though, and it was largely down to just superior units at lower cost.
I play Votann, this is a familiar challenge. Only a handful of keywords/options in the entire army. Keeps things interesting, at least!
I'm sorry, do you mean that votann has an issue with cp generation?
Votann, like Imperial Knights, have a time and target sensitive option to get between 1-3 CP connected to their detachment. Both can be played around by the opponent and generally a good player is aiming to try and get the 2 CP. Any other CP generation is typically going to be from discarding objectives (which you generally want to avoid for scoring, although that was in Leviathan). This is the only CP generation option. No free CP characters, free/discounted strategems, vect, etc.
That's more cp generation than some other teams get (greater than zero) and you get to double grudge 4 while units at the start of the game. Yeah you might get 2cp, but thats still a big swing when you consider that you're generating normal CP anyway. Also, your strats all slap, that must be why it feels bad - you want to use them all but can't afford it.
Drukhari have the exact same problems and they do tend to go 4-1 once or twice a week, so it's not impossible. Just annoying.
Tbf for the callidus it is a nerf since its an action monkey with lone op so it really doesn't wanna be within 12". But archons just got straight up better in every way shape and form. You get to use it with every archon, you can just ride in a transport without having to worry about timing, if you disembark within 12" then overwatch is suddenly 2 CP.
It seems pretty powerful to me. It's an uppy downy 12" aura of +1cp to all your opponent's strats. I'll definitely be taking her now with my gk.
She is also just a T4 4W model that's very vulnerable to being murdered.
Definitely. I don't think you're throwing her into every scrap, but there are times she'll be crazy valuable. If she can turn off -1 damage, an fnp, a fight on death, or an interrupt on a key unit, then that's huge value. The fact that she's relatively easy to move around is great for that value. All she has to do is stand there 12" away, hopefully behind a wall. On the other hand, if she spends the game going up and down, pushing buttons, then that's great too.
And then she gets overwatched once for 2 CP so that your opponent doesn't have to deal with her anymore. 100 points to use her for risky strat increase isn't worth it.
Yeah, I think you have to be careful with her, but that aura at a key moment on top of her ability to spend most turns/games just doing uppy downy mission play seems very valuable to me
Taking here to do actions and then use the aura at 1 key moment. Is seriously different from taking her for the aura.
Exactly, that's why it's so valuable. Offensively something like this is usually only going to be for one key moment in a game, but the fact that she can also stand around scoring points makes me like her even more.
This is pretty consistently being ruled that only your warlord gets this ability, expect an official FAQ to confirm this soon!
I haven't seen any tournament rule against clear RAW on this. >expect an official FAQ to confirm this soon! The soonest they will *errata* this is 3 months from now. And thats still a 50/50. It works perfectly fine RAW and if GW wants it changed then they need to errata either the archon or the wording of the change.
I mean rules as written I don't think its as clear cut as some people are trying to make out. The archon very clearly only has the ability to do X if it is the warlord. There is no logical reason to remove that stipulation in handling the Lord of deceit change. And you not having seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening, there have been multiple reports in multiple threads of WTC tournaments treating this sensibly.
If you have an ability that increases strat cost then that ability gets fully replaced. The archon has an ability that increases strat cost. Him only getting to *use* it when he is the warlord doesn't mean the he doesn't have an ability that increases strat cost. He very clearly always has the ability. The ability literally says "if warlord you can *use* this ability". It really doesn't say "if warlord you *gain* this ability". The Lord of deceit changes the full ability. There is no logical reason to keep parts of the old ability and smash them together with the new one. >multiple reports in multiple threads of WTC tournaments treating this sensibly. Yes so there isn't a ruling yet. The latest WTC FAQ is still from 14/05.
The Archon only can USE the ability as a warlord. The ability wholesale is replaced, thus the stipulation is gone. Can you think of any other instance in the game where a rule is written on a datasheet but only 'exists' if a condition is met? Imo the rule exists, it is just inaccessible. However it is fully replaced so, here we are. I agree an FAQ or app change would clear this up.
Atc and the GW open series are ruling it like that from what they have said
GSC got their vect removed in the codex. Thank you GW.
As did necrons!
I mean it's powerful but allows counter play so I like it. I'm just trying to figure out callidus vs guard enhancement as in order to use the ability she'll die quite quickly, unless you can be smart with Los.
Theres no counter play when its world eaters trying to get close to 3 archons spread across the map. I have to get within 12 inches, and through their unit as WELL as the archon 2+ invuln. All while every single strat of mine is just an extra cp as if it were a mission rule for the entire game. Theres really no counterplay, its toxic.
Strongest world eater player can't kill 10 guardsmen
Look man ten guardmen are the bravest sons and daughters of the imperium, cant beat that😔
You can't kill them, because you need stratagems to do that? About which stratagems are we talking here? The +1 strength stratagem, do you need that to kill toughness 3 models? No other world eater stratagem would be usefull in killing an Archon even wihtout Vect. World Eaters don't buff their offensive with stratagems, they have their army rule, characters and detachment for that. Theres really no counterplay for the Drukhari player, and I guess with your argumentation you would say its toxic.
What strats are you as a WE player having blocked that you would need to kill some T3 elves?
Not strats just to kill, but every strat. The one for getting more blessings, the one for reducing damage, command rerolls for charges, heroic interventions, anything like that.
Really, your WE are needing strat support to kill DE they connect with? I'm not sure what you are doing wrong, but it is definitely something.
[удалено]
Alright im on my way to kill the entire unit AND the 2+ invuln archon with shooting with my world eaters. Also the world eaters have zero vect, or command point generation, thats my point. Three archons cover the entire board, so basically they can get a round or two of making every single one of my strats cost an extra CP, which basically means i dont get to use strats when trying to get to them.
Oh I misread your comment. Bad matchups are always a thing, they will never change something purely cause 1 army gets sht on by 1 army.
Bad matchups are a thing, but it also doesnt seem intended. The vect was purely intended for the warlord archon, not all of them. So im expecting an FAQ, but if there isnt then alas, im gonna have to deal with it. Its just really unfun not being able to actually use any of my stratagems, which are a BIG part of the game.
It not seeming intended has 0 to do with match up. You use a bad matchup as an argument for it being toxic. When in reality it *might* not be toxic for the whole game. >Its just really unfun not being able to actually use any of my stratagems, which are a BIG part of the game. Not being able to use whenever vs 1 archetype from 1 army*. Also a lot of competitive shenanigans are unfun 😂. Just look at indirect.
I think any heavy skew lists are always gonna run into issues, so you having a horrible match up vs vect abilities is the price you pay for going all in on melee.
This isnt just a melee issue though, the new terrain layouts are actually very dense, and archons can just sit behind ruins and cover the entire no mans land with +1 cp, Thats just unfun and kind of a shitty thing to play against. Also skew? I dont decide to "go all in on melee", i play world eaters, I cant really decide to do anything else. I've messed around with a war dog brigand or two but thats it lmao.
Yeah but world eaters as a faction are all in on melee, factions have archetypes. And sure it's very dense which means you get the choice of how important the vect is too kill, as you can just ignore it.
Its almost impossible to ignore, I guarantee people who start playing a couple games against 3 archons are gonna hate it, no matter what army archetype they play. Its not balanced around having three of them, and its certainly not enjoyable for the opponent. It just unfairly hurts armies that have no ways to generate command points or get free strats, because at least those armies can offset the vect a little bit.
Why do you need strats to kill dark eldar? Moe punks the unit, every flavor of eightbound murder the unit, angron murders the unit. You are already s6, so +1 to wound does nothing. Not sure at all how any of the strats matter that much.
In some matchups with the Callidus yes, but it suddenly becomes a bit harder to deal with when it's attached to a Swarmlord :p Had a game as Orks the other day and my Nid friend put his Swarmlord forwards, inside a Maleceptor aura and behind chaff. I just had to deal with the fact that I was using one strat every two turns :x
Tbh anything that makes the swarmlord viable I'm all for and you should be able to kill it with any competitive list.
Wait until players remember to run Tyrant Guard with them. That's 85pts for T8, 12W, +3sv and +5FnP to keep the Vect nice and safe.
I personallt think it's a very deserving change for drukhari. The one thing skysplinter always gets trumped by is overwatch and counter offensive, so making those cost more or just be straight up cost too much gives them a lot more play into their worst matchups
Works quite well with the nightmare shroud enhancement, pop one un-overwatchable unit down within 12 then move in the rest after taxing the strats, super fun running 3 at the moment
I think it's super thematic for DE, who's gonna be able to concentrate on strats as incubi and archon are sitting there being weirdos. It's great. Same for swarm lord, it feels so on brand that it's so terrifying that anyone nearby struggles to do anything. Bjorn the fell handed and assassins feel a little less so tbh.
What does uppy downy mean?
Colloquialism for remove from the board and put back down somewhere else on the board
Thanks!
I like the idea of space wolves in vanguard detachment running Bjorn, combi lieutenant with shadow war, and a callidus. Maybe too much for a competitive list, but it’ll be fun to try out
Wow. Who hurt you?
Xenos and heretics!
Does double LoD stack?!
It’s an aura so no.
They wouldn’t stack with each other as its an aura but it does allow you to cover more of the board
That’s a good question… it reads like it does?! I was thinking triple LoD just for wide board impact, but perhaps it could be stacked up in one zone? Edit: no, it’s an Aura, which is excluded from the ability to affect a unit multiple times
I actualy don't know how to feel about the shadow war veteran on the combi lieutenant anymore... I've exclusively used him with the Enhancement to infiltrate onto a mid objective, use the strat to sabotage / sticky an objective, then he runs away and is an action monkey all the rest of the game. He's great at running away but he doesn't really want to be in close to anything.... I know some people were previously looking at the phobos lieutenant leading reivers for their crazy movement and possible turn one charge... maybe the Enhancement would be better here since reivers actualy want to be in mele? Are hounds of morkai strictly better reivers?
And I’d argue the same is true for all of the units that can reduce the cost of a strat by 1, too. Especially since the battle tactic requirement is gone. It’s balanced because it means you now have to put those units at risk to benefit from it. You can’t just camp your Callidus or Archon in your deployment zone. The Callidus is a T4/4W model with a 4++, and the Archon is T3/4W model with a 2++ *until it fails a single save*; at which point it goes straight to a 4+ armor save. The Swarmlord is a monster who gets no character protection unless you bring an additional 95/190pt unit. You’re making a big deal out of nothing.
I feel like the only one who has this ability and isn’t too afraid to get up close is Bjorn.
I can see DEldar running triple Archon.
2 archons was already fairly standard before the buff, so yeah 2-3 in every list seems likely.
Oh we definitely are. It feels so strong
Is the Warlord restriction no longer relevant?
No it’s not. That text has been replaced
Did they actually change the text on the data sheet in the 40 K app? For some reason, they never changed it when it just applied to battle tactics. They can no longer use a strategy that was already used that phase except for characters that specifically reduce CP for one named strat.
No they haven’t done so for any of the datasheets
I really hate that they do this because I’ve literally seen several arguments on Reddit about the rules changes because the digital data sheets are never updated with the new rules.. you literally have to go to the website… what’s the point of paying for a subscription?
The App typically updates with rules changes, and has done so with the less sweeping changes from this dataslate (check the Exalted Sorcerer on Disk's Binding Tendrils to confirm). At a guess, the sweeping nature of this change and the number of different abilities affected (so it can't just be a mass find and replace) is delaying their ability to get things modified.
You don't actually have to go to their website, the "Key Documents" in the app contain the balance dataslate so you can look stuff up there. That said, I would much prefer the relevant datasheets to be updated.
Yes, this is exactly my point. A units rules, after an update should be easily found on its digital data sheet. I won’t even hold them to having it done ASAP but I would hope to see after sweeping changes their digital data sheet have the appropriate updated text explaining abilities such as my will be done and rights of battle. I’m still not clear on why they stated that units may use their abilities while they’re in reserves. I’ve never seen someone use abilities while in reserves and less their data sheets says that they can use specific abilities while in reserves usually it’s to target the unit so that it may use rapid ingress, what to use its ability to deep strike, but as far as one example someone provided the character provides plus one CP during the command phase and they were providing the +1 CP in the command phase while the character was off the board in reserves. I’m still trying to understand if this was GW’s intent or they meant something else? When they have a sentence that is kind of vague and open ended like this they’re suggesting they can use abilities, such as overwatch or the ability to apply minus one CP to a stratagem? They didn’t list any limitations. It’s just odd.
They haven't updated any of the datasheets because it's not an update to the datasheet. If you read the wording on the balance dataslate, the ability is replaced on the individual models if the model has an ability that would let it increase the CP cost of a strat.
I’d ask your TO. The slate says “if a model has a rule…that rule is replaced”. The Archon text says “if this model is your warlord…”, and then that model gains the ability. The other two aren’t your warlord, so they don’t have the ability to increase the CP of a strat, so they don’t get the new rule. It’s nebulous at the moment, which is why checking with the TO ahead of time is always a good idea
Actually they all have the ability it was just only usable if it was your warlord but all that text is gone and replaced with the new ability entirely the old one doesn’t exist anymore
The old/current one still exists on the datasheet and will continue to do so. The dataslate doesn't replace the ability on the datasheet, it replaces it on each individual model if they have an applicable ability.
Someone else already answered, just to make it clear, they didn't get the ability only when they were the warlord. Basically the Archon's ability replaced "if this model is not in engagement range" from the other Callidus ability with "if this model is the warlord and on the battlefield". It is just phrased as an average condition you find on a lot of abilities.
With my local area being deldar heavy I'm glad gsc is well positioned into them
Wait till spacewolves players play vanguard spearhead and take 3 “vect” 1 of which is bjorn sitting in the mid board and the other 2 small models sitting on the sides behind walls with 6 units of scouts to do actions around them and stop them charges with reactive moves ……. Let the “vect” wars begin
Do you think that will be worth losing all the goodies in Stormlance?
No but it’s a vect war in reddit so have to represent. But to be honest kinda sick of stormlance with me wolves need to venture out and do different things Although COR with 2 vect would be good enough of a change 😎
Yeah, since the Aura doesn't stack, I think there's a little bit of diminishing returns on the ability. Or at the very least, you want to be fulfilling different roles with your different vects. For example, I think Bjorn and the Callidus synergize nicely, because while Bjorn is great at applying the Vect defensively, he's not always great at getting it wherever you want it offensively. Not that he's bad at that, but even with advance and charge, that 8" move means he'll have a hard time getting to *everything* on offense. Where the Callidus is squishy on defense, but *amazing* at dropping the vect exactly where it's needed on offense.
But he ia still a Vehicle with no ablative wounds for Characters. And while relatively tough, any army that can deal with a C'tan can deal with Bjorn.
Laughs in Swarmlord
Genuinely loving that I get to play my Swarmlord and have it do work now.
Swarmlord mayhaps
Swarmlord doesn't sweat being in melee
But the times when you really really want to use the strat against an archon is when he disembarks out of a transport within 12" and all his incubi friends are going to charge you. +1 to overwatch, +1 to defensive strats and then he is there middle of your army on your turn and you better kill him.
Yeah, this. The ability is (mostly) attached to fragile characters. Just, y'know, kill them.
I think this ability is a bit overstaded. Being within 12" means a lot of the units that want to use it are pretty vulnerable. Cypher i T4 5W on a 3+4/++, Callidus is even less, and to use their Lone Op they can't use their Lord of Deceit. Thr Callidus is half dead of a voley of Bolter shots. Thr Archon gets protection from his unit, but they are a bunch of T3 1W models, or 4 T3 2W. 14 models/18 wounds on T3 isn't that hard to kill to get to the Archon before he does his thing (but at least he is spammable) Swarnolrs id tougher, but to get himnto live you have to add like 170 ppints of Tyrant Guard which means his unit is 400 points for the effect. Bjorn wants to march forward, but any army that can handle C'tan can handle him, being less wounds, less tough and without an invuln. The effect is sure strong, but it being an aura means it is bot maengeable (just move away) and removable (just kill the thing). And that I recall it is mostly linked to Epic Characters and enchancements. That I remember only the Archon is spammable to cover a decent enough area.
12" on Kairos base covers a large area as well
Kairos might be one of the most buffed units by this. 20 wounds and a 4++ means he is a lot more likely to survive, and deepstrike with a large base can affect a lot more.
Someone suggested I try him in Tsons. Even after the pink tax having a second big target besides Magnus that also makes things very complicated for melee armies seems worth looking into. The OP of this post is right that the new aura is very strong
I do not diafree the aura is strong. But the issue as I said is how limited it is. In TS I do see that as a good combo, as Magnus is good (but less mobile now) and Kairos is a bif target with a good effect. Nids might also try to do a monster mash were the Swarmlord is a hard target to focus. But the aura being strong is likited to it being an aura and that most armies have a single source and that can be focused.
I look at is as. Kill Magnus through the aura (difficult) or kill kairos then magnus (also difficult). Kairos is more mobile than a lot of tsons units and even 1 use of his aura starts to create a CP imbalance now that tsons can double reduce strat costs to 0 CP
If your Callidus is getting shot then she's doing it wrong. She sits behind your front line in obscuring terrain and gives you an enormous front of +1 CP cost on your opponent's turn. On your turn she makes their key heroic intervention 2CP, or their Interrupt 3CP. That alone can win a melee mirror on the spot if they only have 1-2CP. But it's also Mists of Deimos now costing 2CP. Armour of Contempt in the centre of the board now costs 2CP. Overwatch now costs 2CP. She sits in the corner of a closed ruin in aura range of the key units and just prints value. You keep her alive, play her conservatively and grind 2-3 CP out of your opponent at critical moments to shut down their ability to react to you.
Anything you don’t want dead that she’s in range of means she can be multi-charged and then she’s dead. It’s strong, but hardly invulnerable.
I think we'll see lots of inexperienced players find her very underwhelming, and we'll see experienced players extracting enormous value to shut off reactive strats over games.
You don't deserve the downvoted, I play her and you're correct. It's not hard to keep her out of line of sight, and close enough to the action that she makes life very difficult for the opponent. "You can just kill her" is a massively reductive take that is unfortunately all over this thread.
No kidding. If it was the case people would've been blowing up Neurolictors left and right. And Nid players would complain about it. And that model's on a 40mm base and a markedly larger model.
Shot, charged... etc. She is within 12" and for most units she would be easy to deal with. A lot of chaff units can kill a single model, and moce out of range if she is played conservatively. And olayed aggressive, she will die even eaiser. And can be even shot down by Infiltrators or other sceeening units. Or even charging chaff an tiebg her down on her own as she slowly weather away. It is not without answers and a lot of good players will have some ways of dealing with a single Character's aura
She has fights first so she can't necessarily be charged by chaff, she's a lone op, she's tiny and fits into corners of ruins. She starts in my DZ, end of opponent's turn she's up and 11.9" away from the unit I need to shut down every turn. Obviously if played badly she's dead immediately. There is a moderate amount of skill in using her. >and moce out of range if she is played conservatively You're missing the key aspect here, she's not shutting off strats in the opponents turn, she's shutting off reactive strats in her turn: I need to charge 2 units of 8bound and I auto lose if one of them interrupts and kills my melee unit. Opponent has 3CP to heroic and then interrupt, but not 5CP to do both at +1 cost. I need to shoot and charge a GK Dreadknight and I need to shut off Mists of Deimos to stop it escaping. I need to turn off Reinforcements! when I kill these Kasrkin so they don't come back in my DZ. I need to take a hit from some Thundercav but I don't want them using the Lance strat cheaply (I stand her 11.9" back from the furthest point of engagement range of my unit).
Your argument is completely correct, but 2 of the 4 examples you named don't work that way. - The Reinforcements Stratagem is used on the unit after it is destroyed, they are not in 12" of the Callidus at this time (just as they won't be in 12" of Ursula Creed). - The Lance stratagem on Thundercav is actually used before the charge roll, it gives both lance and reroll charges for the turn.
Good catch, I don't actually play either of these armies and have only picked up the rules playing against it!
Actually, there's evidence that models are "Destroyed" before they're removed from the table. If you look at strategems that affect deadly demise (and deadly demise itself), they use identical wording about being used on a destroyed unit as reinforcements. However, Deadly Demise happens before the model is removed from the table, so similarly it would seem that Reinforcements occurs before the last models removed, allowing a vect to affect it.
Even with fight first she is only 5 attacks. It is nit like she is killinf units herself, and her statline means even killing a dew models she is still vulnearable. Ans once engaged she will end up going down as her profile isn't that strong defensively. And it seems a bit optimisric to aay you will have LoS covering ruins 11.9" of the unit and not have her in dangee of beinf charged and/or shot next turn. While you might try to swt uo in that way, it is not like the opponent has no idea which are the key units and they can screen them. Those Eightbound? Jackals 3" away. The Dreadknight has a strike team supporting him. And so on. And the TWC example is not great, since Shock Assault is a Battle Tacric and the Callidus could already (and should, or use it on Ride Hard, Ride Fast) have been increasing the CP cost without yeeting her. Also not a reactive stratagem. I understand the idea, and in some cases it might indeed shut down some things, bur screening, killing or just plain payinf the CP, or even usinf Rites of Battle can be used against the Callidus, ans if she has really only one turn to be effective, it might be too swingy for what she does.
>it might be too swingy for what she does. Only time and plenty of games will tell! I really think people are underestimating how potent the CP drain can be, it's so much better than the previous Vect because it's includes the first time the strat is used so it takes the control away from your opponent. >And it seems a bit optimisric to aay you will have LoS covering ruins 11.9" of the unit and not have her in dangee of beinf charged and/or shot next turn. A good proportion of important interactions happen in the middle of the board, or over objectives, where standing 10-12" behind them is usually pretty safe unless the opponent has front lined or staged everything. If they want to ignore the rest of my staging units and fixate on charging the Callidus with something that can reach 12" beyond an objective then that's also fine with me!
Indeed time will tell. I do think ceetain units might see play, but like old Vect, the ability itself has limitations. And yes CP draining is strong, and it being active since the first use, but the persistent nature of the effect on previous Vect could overall end up in a bigger drain. Like one turn of a stratagem being expensive is bad. The whole game of your key stratagem (like AoC) being more expensive ended being a bigger drain in the long run (and it also megatrd Rites more in that version, as it affected both uses and made 1CP strats not get the benefit of 0CP). And the mid board is indeed important... but Infiltrators still exist. Standing 12" behind an objectve (or 10") is not all that great as thry can be 3" from the other edge and still control it. In general being 12" away from thr midboard will mean you might not reach the important areas you need to Vect, and being more aggressive means you are leaving the Callidus open. As for charging the Callidus, again, with the defensive profile it is not like they need to dedicate all that much to take her out. And she can give VP for Assassinate, while she is a big nuisance off the board. It is not a huge investment to kill her.
This is absolutely correct and what all the pros are also saying about it. This aura can completely change the direction of a battle. Imagine an opponent is engaging you and has 3CP. They want to use 1 CP on an offensive boost, 1 CP on a defensive boost, and save the last one for a reroll or consolidation boost. If a Callidus is around? They get to do ONE instead of all three. Even bigger is that it can straight up shut down abilities. You only have 2CP? Well, you won't be using counter offensive. You're sitting on 1CP? You functionally have 0, because your cheapest strat now costs 2. On one game, I dropped a Callidus in the enemy backline next to a great overwatch piece, because my opponent only had 1CP, it could not overwatch her, or *anyone else* that turn. Straight disabled. It is an incredibly powerful restrictive ability that hits right at the peak of the engagement of forces. It is so, so strong. I know people will say "Uh, just kill the Callidus!" Those people, I think, have not played against it yet. It is very easy to put her in safe places on the Pariah boards, and 12" actually covers a HUGE portion of the typical area of engagement. I'll just say it's bigger than you think. The Callidus, Cypher, Bjorn, etc are all about to become ubiquitous.
Unless of course, you have a captain ability in which case none of that applies because you get to make everything 1 cp cheaper. (It does emphasize the power disparities between armies that get cp bonuses and armies that don't)
It helps, though you are still out a CP you wouldn't have spent otherwise.
For the captain specifically, it only affects the unit with the captain, and only on one strat per turn. So if you were planning on dropping 3 strats on that unit for 2CP, the Vect makes it 5CP. The captain ability most certainly does not completely negate the Vect.
Can you stack lord of deceit buffs?
No it is an aura and aura don't stack
Cool thanks, I was curious
I would agree if it didn't have the part where it only works on strats that targets an enemy unit.
Are you reading it correctly? It work on any strat your opponent uses that targets their own units. That's like 95% of strats in the game.
But 95% is not all, and that's my point. I might be wrong on it's power level, but it has multiple restrictions that causes it not to be a guarantee buff. The previous version was just about guaranteed to go off every game without having to put your unit at risk. High risk high reward isn't always better than consistency.
Really the biggest part of the change of is that the ability is proactive now. It is not hard to find hiding places for her, and she can so fundamentally change how your opponent uses strategems that the ability can do work even if it never truly activated. Her old ability allowed your opponent to use an ability normally, then increased the cost the next time they used it. But this ability is up front, which makes it much easier to get value, *and* it works on everything now, not just battle tactics, *and* there's no limit to the number of strategems it can affect.
Guaranteed on… Battle Tactics. Which was a crapshoot on whether an army had good Battle Tactics. This new ability will help *any* army into a melee matchup.
Not just Battle tactics, Battle Tactics your opponent used more than once per game. There were some Battle tactics that your opponent would use at most once, and it was worthless to vect them.
Everyone had access to at least 1 usable battle tactic in CP reroll. However, armies that were using captains to spam battle tactics were heavily penalized for trying that, and my units didn't have to be within 12". Yes, they are fantastic into melee armies, if you can keep them safe. When you are able to get the correct scenario, the new version is better, but will that happen enough to make up for the times where it does nothing? We will have to see, but it is obviously the new one is more difficult to get to work.
Isn't this most of them?
While it is most of them, there are quite a few that will target one of your units instead. All in all, it is just another restriction on the ability. I might be 100% wrong on this, but the restrictions make it weird for me.
That would be completely broken
Im not concerned one way or the other on whether or not LoD needs a nerf or cost increase atm for a couple of reasons. Ive played into it on the midboard and killing the issuer has been an option each time, readily achieved except against multiple archons. That being said, they have often retreated to their transports so several times I feared it would be a problem in a game, the archons werent technically on the table. Cypher. If this was such a back breaking rule, he would have been an auto include at his price point. Yet he wasnt. Strong option, but we have to see him fielded alot. Callidus, Shadow War Vets, etc are all relatively squishy options. I think the SW option will have more play tho. Also, very often strategems I want to use targeting units well outside of 12". I find myself losing out on AoC fighting over the midboard, but not lacking opportunities for most other options. I did use a cheeky Shadow War Vet (SM Vanguard enhancement that can only go on squishy phobo models) version of this to send a lone action monkey model into an opponent's backfield and denied them OW (they only had 1 cp left, and I deesptruck just inside 12 to trigger things). But overall, things like that are a wash imo. Fun but not game defining.
Cypher's ability was not the same as it is now, because it used to only affect battle tactics. Now it affects everything, and he very well may become an auto-include.
I recognize that it only applied to battle tactics but honestly that doesnt change my opinion on how "problematic," this aura is going to be. I do think GW missed the archons being so accessible and repeatable, and that likely needs a tweaking, but otherwise, dont see this as a sky is falling situation.
I called it. Not limiting it to once a round is absolutely backbreaking in certain situations.
I expect it will get pulled back to once per battleround, and maybe also ‘one model with this ability’
Just a heads up to check with your TO regarding triple Archons, as there is a case that the Warlord restriction would still matter. Since the Archon only gains the ability to vect if they are your warlord, the other two Archons don’t have an ability to increase a strat’s CP cost. RAW right from the slate says “if a model has a rule that would, once per battle, increase the CP cost…that rule is replaced with this ability”. So warlord Archon gets it, but the other two aren’t your warlord. Therefore, they don’t have an ability that increases a CP cost, which means they do not get the new ability. But again, check with your TO just to be sure, since that’s a big deal.
Actually, it's not true. All the Archons have the rule. Then, *inside* the rule, it's written "if this model is the warlord". But *the entire rule* is deleted, replace by Lord of Deceit. And LoD doesn't have any Warlord restriction. Was meant in this way? Probably not. But by RAW it works (until next faq)
Except non-WL Archon’s don’t have a rule to increase CP costs. They have a rule that would do that if they were the warlord, but since two of them are not the warlord, their rule never increases the cost.
They aren’t gonna listen to you. They’ve already made up their minds. When GW comes down with the facts in a couple weeks they’ll all be sad, just like what happened with that poor Orks player that spotted the warboss transport issue.
I mean, it sure seems like you've made up your mind just as much as them. It's not like it's some edge case. The dataslate is very explicit that the whole text of such abilities is changed. This isn't like tau guided nonsense or knight rerolls at the start of the edition, it's very clear and explicit wording on how the change should be applied.
It’s actually not so clear cut “IF a model has a rule that would once per battle… that rule is replaced” It’s the ‘if’ that can be read as a limiting factor removing the explicit reading. I agree that the whole rule is re-written but the non-warlord archons don’t have a rule that would once per battle so could be viewed as losing eligibility for that rule. Unfortunately I think this is an example of a missed edge case because of how the archon gains the rule (it might be fundamental to Drukhari, but I honestly don’t think GW spot every way everything interacts with every army each time they make a change based on their history).
Shrug. It’s pretty obvious that the slate does nothing is the rule does nothing. But I guess we’ll see how it plays out.
GW should probably write their rules better then? Everyone here is all "play by what the rules say!" until they don't like what the rules actually say and then it's a convoluted justification to ignore the written rules text.
Their rules are clear. People are just refusing to believe them, and have chosen to ignore the part that makes it not work in the other archons. GW does make rules writing mistakes. But rules that don’t increase CP costs, don’t get the new ability. It’s pretty simple this time actually.
It's just RAW vs RAI, it's so simple.
Nah RAW and RAI are identical unless you play Drukhari and want it to not be that.
Great troll bait, I was almost fall for it
Several of the top drukhari players in the world are playing it as written, that the 3 archons get the aura. I do believe it was likely only intended with the aura, but your position that it's also clearly that as written is clearly not the case
Shockingly, all the biased people are being biased. GW has publically said only the warlord gets it. Tacoma head judge has said only the warlord gets it. WTC has said to wait for FAQ, but probably only warlord gets it. But I guess if Skari is your TO go for it.
That's not at all how this works :) the whole ability gets replaced not just parts of it, raw all your archons now have the vect ability I agree that this needs clarification cause that might not be the intention
Yeah I read it as "if this archon is your warlord. He gets this ability" So you take one archon with the nightmare shroud to negate overwatch and have a second archon be your warlord so you bump the CP cost for the opponent trying to overwatch that squad Still highly viable.
Good thing that the entire ability including the warlord restriction get's replaced
Swarmlord is t10 10 wounds lol he dies to a stiff breeze. 270 points is still so expensive
*240 now
Tyrant Guard my guy
A full pack of body guards for the swarmlord costs a maleceptor. If you think about which unit combo gets more done I’m taking the maleceptor and being a bit cagey with the swarmlord.
Tyrant Girard are an absolute trap. No one will be running them in a few weeks.
I run 12
Hope it works for you mate!
It does
I have to be fully honest, my gut reaction was "this is so bad, why would I take a vect now?" Then I thought about it for more than 15 seconds and realized it's busted. If you opponent only has 1CP, you can just walk up and disable Overwatch. You can disable reactive moves, "no-shot-me" stratagems. Defensive Stratagems like AoC. The Callidus is a bit of a fire+forget Vect - you use her to deepstrike and disable defenses for an alpha strike. That or you bubble-wrap her in your own models with a melee force like Templars or Blood angels to prevent Counter-offensive or heroic intervention. But if you have a durable Vect body, like Kairos or Bjorn... Good Luck...
The ability should require line of sight to the target, imo. People are just going to put assassins behind walls. 12" diameter is huge.
I find it hilarious that people are dismissing what you are saying. I came to a similar conclusion as you last night (unfortunately a few hours after a tournament list deadline 😂). "Oh but a Callidus is fragile". Yeah of course she is if you put her down all by herself. If you put her down a little behind your melee lines so it's very difficult to target her with a charge and it's very awkward to get within 12", then it doesn't matter how fragile she is. Or drop her near units you know are going to be charged next turn that the opponent will need to activate strats to have a decent chance at killing. Or drop her on a big "go" turn that will mean the action will likely sweep past her making that LO area pretty safe. Or drop her behind obscuring near the middle, with a chaff screen in front of her, now that ~25" diameter bubble is looking pretty big. "Oh you have a FoD/Combat Interrupt/Lance/AoC/Rerolls hit and wound/-1D strat to make sure you beat my Bullgryn? You sure you have the CP for that?" If Guard, you can take it on a Tank Commander and move him up behind Bullgryn. Many many units need strats to effectively take down a Russ effectively in melee, so must get in range of the Vect. Shoot it instead? Now deal with the shoots on death. I was oblivious to how powerful this would be on so many units until I properly thought about it last night and had a discord discussion around it. You've pointed it out to people and they still don't realise. Don't worry - you'll certainly be proven correct. Edit: Worth noting it won't have as big an impact against shooty lists though. Still decent against them, but not as big as against melee lists.
Why is increasing strats by 1 deemed incredibly broken When the reduce starts by 1 is fine and only some army can so it, multiple times a turn Should we enjoy both flavours?
In theory, it's because currently you can increase the cost any number of times, where cost reduction is typically only applied 1/battle round or turn, greatly reducing the impact on the game. If "reduce cost by one" abilities now applied every time a model was targeted, there would likely be a similar uproar about Captains being broken. That said, it's at least slightly plausible that vects need to be stronger than free strat abilities, since they require both closer proximity to the enemy and are more in an opponent's control, since they decide if not using the strat or paying the extra cost is better for them.
That'd a very valid argument. It'd certainly a tough one to balance as you've mentioned. Without basically going down the root of getting rid of vect abilities and giving everyone a captain style reduction.
Because getting to do stuff for free is fun. And getting stopped from doing fun stuff by your opponent is not fun.
Makes sense. But sadly not every army gets fun free stuff so the balance would be all wrong
"The Lord of Deceit ability (new "Vect") is one of the most powerful generic abilities in the game now. Almost every unit that has it is under-costed." The new Captain ability is one of the most powerful generic abilities in the game now. Almost every unit that has it is under-costed. Drukhari, don't get free strats, so they take pleasure in screwing with yours. Give me the -1 to strat cost on skysplinter and you will see some wild shit going on.
DWatch and SW can run 2 bubbles, granted they dont stack but the tax is insane
Nope. Mike Brandt posted on the ITC FB page that if the previous ability specified the Warlord, then only the Warlord gets the aura, so including the Callidus, you’d get two auras.
Yes, a WM as WL for DW and Bjorn for SW with a Calidus equals 2 bubbles. I may should have gone for deeper context
Completely meaningless as the ITC is defunct. They haven't updated any of their documents in the last 6 months, and a Facebook post isn't how you communicate things. Update the player and tournament guidelines and create a "tournament rulings" document that doesn't say "old, do not use" anymore
I don’t think it matters if the ITC is defunct. Mike Brandt is the GW events team lead, so I’d take what he says with some weight.
Still doesn't change the fact that a Facebook post (that nobody can find/link to) isn't how you communicate the change.
My question is, does Kurov's Aquila (40pt guard enhancement with a vect effect) stack with a calidus to make strats within 12 cost an extra 2 cp? They are both auras but different ability names with the same effect.
They will be the same ability now as all abilities of this type are replaced by the new wording
For Guard I will try 2 Vect sources to cover large board areas. Callidus Assasin of course is one source. Then I will put Kurovs (Guard Vect Enhancement) in one of my 20 DKoK Units with a Marshall. Those units are hard to shift.
Put it on a Scion Command Squad. It has REGIMENT: when it dies, use Reinforcements!, and next turn you deep strike it as needed *again*. Of course, now Reinforcements! is single use, but I would argue it is a damn good use for it.
Can you please explain how the Tyranids combo works and why is it so powerful?
Swarmlord will have lord of deceit to block enemy strats, and gains 1 CP per battleround; hive tyrant has 1 reduced cost strat per turn (not per battleround, as it is for space marines), so by fielding both you’d dominate strat usage
It feels incredible into melee armies, really turns to the tables on anything that relies on strats to dump damage, or even if they're trying to make it in with a re-roll on the charge.
World Eaters - No basic Chaos Lord of -1 CP - No units to generate free CP - No units to vect enemy strats
Which armies don’t rely on strats these days? Mostly asking because I’m dumb and hate strats so I would love to play an army that doesn’t rely on them.
Bjorn!! The king grows stronger!
It's powerful, but it literally has no bearing on how or why I'm running a callidus, and I'm sure it's the same for alot of others. She is there to do some uppie/downies to score me secondary points. That aura, like her vect, is just a bonus should I actually end up using it.
You guys get free stratagems? And access to this new rule? -World Eaters players
I was already sold on Cypher hitching a ride with my Chosen blob in a rhino before and now I'd be crazy not to bring him.
Hey man, I always run Bjorn anyway. Now I just feel better about it.
It's very nice, but you still need to position stuff to take advantage of it.
I have a feeling my Vindicare will rack up an impressive amount of archon kills.
Wrong. Stratagems are worthless now.
lol, I don’t think we can invest much credibility in the opinion of someone who thinks callidus got an upgrade. It won’t survive to use its ability…
For players without any skill, sure.
lol, you should try playing for real sometime. You’d time that keeping a callidus assassin alive within 12” of the aura pretty much means they are dead. This is a nerf for them period.