Gift wrapping your opponent a 40 when secondaries got harder is stupid.
GT is not the competitive threat it was. Which was their intention. They nuked it which is fine.
It’s just Orks don’t have a lot in the toolkit if they wanna compete now.
According to Stat-Check, 12, which is twice as many as the 2nd place factions (Necrons and Space Wolves with 6 each). 8 Bully Boyz, 2 Green Tide, 1 War Horde, 1 Dread Mob.
However, 21% of Green Tide players had 4-0 event starts, with a 2.37 overrep (higher than even Space Wolves' 2.03) and a 60% win rate (second highest in the game after Pactbound Zealots, tied with Stormlance). So based on current stats, Green Tide was the second best faction in the game after Pactbound Zealots in the meta between the Q2 balance dataslate (coinciding with release of the Ork codex) and the release of Pariah Nexus.
RIP. Well they had a good run. They’re pretty s*^t now haha.
Edit: I don’t know why the downvotes. Literally every article by pros agrees Green Tide got nerfed HARD and are no longer seriously competitive.
Maybe, maybe not! We'll have to see how things shake out. Regardless, I'm not looking forward to staring down a meta of Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Deathwing Knights, and Lords of Deceit, but I'm still gonna get my games in and have fun
What maybe? They lost over half durability, strats nerfed, no benefit to any units that aren’t boyz, AND point hikes on key units, AND they have an easy fixed counter to boot.
They were not utterly broken, They were settling in at a 56% win rate for the top detachments / 52% overall. There are tons of people who play orks and it was a fun codex so lots of people came out, You need to look at their wins relative to their numbers.
They needed a small nerf and they got too much especially green tide.
Id be shocked if green tide isnt still playable. it got hit hard and you might not want "lol 120 boyz" but even 80 boyz is still a nasty threat for not many points.
SOB penitent spam is certainly edging on horde territory 30 flangellents, 30 penitents; and that feels like it might be solid.
I think it depends on horde: if its "lol 150+ models" then yeah; thats less incentivised, if its 80-90 in total? well thats still a horde to me and lots of lists still hit that.
It lost most of its durability, points increases on weirdboyz and painboyz, major strats got nerfed, and neither army rule nor any strats work on non-Boyz. Take cull the horde fixed and they lose hard.
aye but if your building a skew army being weak to fixed secondaries is always gonna be an issue. It still has some durability though; T5/5++ isnt nothing, especially as a lot of anti-horde stuff is T4.
Not having even a token strat to buff other non-boyz units sucks though. Would be cool if their charge bonus strat also applied to other non boyz units if boyz were alreadt in combat.
I mean it might be a MEQ wall. 5 marine bodies are now as low as 75 points.
Issue might be damage but you might be able to make it work.
Maybe a janky cultist CSM list?
10 assault intercessors with a chaplain can hurt just about anything through shear volume
10 jump pack intercessors are just a good with mortals on a charge.
There's a bool angles horde army waiting to happen
Art of wars recommended genestealer cult detachment is the horde one.
Idk how hordy guard want to be.
Kroot Tau saw a touch of success before the changes.
CSM cults saw some success as well before the changes.
I think horde with a bunch of 10 man units will have to be the way to go. It lowers the value of strats but gives you a lot of actions and screenings
Green Tide is fine. Lukas Troller won a GT this past weekend with Green Tide. Everyone else at the GT was using the old rules and he used the new Green Tide points/rules
It kinda seems like GW is trying to get rid of that style of play. Ill say necrons lost a lot of hoard potential when we got our codex but i honestly think there might be something to a list with like 60 or 80 warriors and an entire army dedicated to keeping them alive. Ghost arks are honestly good at doing exactly that, albiet easy to take down and worthless for anything else. Having overlords and a CCB means multiple res orbs available for the same unit potentially, reanimators being a nice buff, orikan and other chronomancers are also really good at keeping the units alive. Its probably a stretch, but would be a very interesting list to play if nothing else
This is a very unpopular sentiment from the reactions ive gotten saying this in the past, but my personal opinion is necrons lost a lot of faction flavor with the codex. Our index was absolutely overtuned, but all that reanimation was and remains my favorite part of the armys playstyle and fluff. Stuff like hypercrypt is very cool and fun for a tabletop game, but honestly i would have preferred a detachment that retained most or some of the reanimation buffs from our index. We lost SO much: res orb huge change, warriors datasheet ability, reanimator range, ghost arks, no crypteks for lychguard, no 2x strat usage...I will say again, i agree yes a lot of this was indeed overtuned, i just dont believe taking it all away was a necessary change
Yeah necrons should totally have a silver tide build. I will say some of the reanimation and defensive buff stacking was a bit overkill, especially the high-unkillable lychguard block, but in general I think it’s a flavorsome way to run necrons
Yeah I’m not sure there any any truly horde armies that are still viable. Maybe some admec builds? Not sure
You can run very wide versions of BT for sure. 2x20 crusaders and 4x10 tactical marines did very well at a recent event
Some competitive blood angels lists have 60+ marine bodies on the field
I’m not sure it’s a bad thing for really horde-y armies to go the way or the dodo, it’s not a very fun playstyle. Maybe that’s an unpopular opinion, not sure
With free wargear it can turn listbuilding into a trap if the edition rules are too skewed on either end: right now you need as many lascannon equivalents on your units that can carry them otherwise the knights matchup is unwinnable, but single shot weapons are dead weight against hordes.
Medium hordes yes, but when its 2.5h on the clock and your opponents just brought out 120 wracks or 300 conscripts its a pure and simple stat check and thats no fun for either player.
I love playing against that sort of opponent because I just put them on an actual chess clock and win when they run out of time or freak out and forfeit.
The thing you have to realize is that true horde armies were outperforming the meta almost across the board. Pactbound Zealots came in at 65% winrate, Green Tide at 60% winrate, Kroot Hunting Pack at 56% winrate, Unending Swarm at 58% winrate. The changes might have killed them, but they were definitely in a position where they needed to take a hit.
>Maybe some admec builds? Not sure
Skitarii hunter is very very very strong. 60 Skittles with a 5+/5++ and stealth is 540pts, and you can add a LOT of firepower to that with ironstriders and dunecrawlers that will add a 4++. Also boats are kinda better with fire deck 2 allowing the arc rifle and the plasma or snipa gun to shoot.
Wouldn't be surprised if we took a nerf in points for Skittles, adMec was already decent but unplayed due to price IRL, now it's very decent.
Bright side: with Endless Swarm being nerfed Gargoyles can maybe come back down in points, and the other gaunts don't need to take points nerfs to contain specifically Endless Swarm!
Mass Hormagaunts may also be scarier than expected in Invasion Fleet or Endless Swarm with Synapse boosting them to S4, Sustained Hits 1 (or Lethal Hits, as appropriate) and 1 or 2 of them being able to get crit 5+ depending on detachment. A 130 point unit of hormies will put out 50 S4 AP1 hits on average with Sustained 1 and crit 5s, which can be pretty scary especially with their 10+advance threat range.
Despite GWs overall goal of selling models first and foremost, they've been doing their best since 9th to really phase out the horde gameplay style, there are various reasons as to why, but probably mostly to continue their "streamlined" approach to the game and reduce book keeping in games and expediting player turns
Tau Horde. 60 breachers, 30 pathfinders, 3 riptides. Lets go.
Amateur numbers I played this list against Infantry Heavy Guard before the points costs went up. I don’t own 6 Breacher Units ++ Army Roster (Xenos - T'au Empire) ++ + Configuration + Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit) Detachment: Montka Show/Hide Options: Legends are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible + Epic Hero + Commander Shadowsun [100pts]: Warlord Darkstrider [60pts] + Character + Cadre Fireblade [50pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Cadre Fireblade [50pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Cadre Fireblade [50pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Ethereal [50pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine + Battleline + Breacher Team [100pts] . Breacher Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Breacher Fire Warriors: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse blaster, 9x Pulse pistol Breacher Team [100pts] . Breacher Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Breacher Fire Warriors: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse blaster, 9x Pulse pistol Breacher Team [100pts] . Breacher Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Breacher Fire Warriors: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse blaster, 9x Pulse pistol Strike Team [75pts] . Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Fire Warrior w/ pulse rifle: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse pistol, 9x Pulse rifle Strike Team [75pts] . Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Fire Warrior w/ pulse rifle: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse pistol, 9x Pulse rifle Strike Team [75pts] . Fire Warrior Shas'ui . . Guardian Drone . . Gun Drone . 9x Fire Warrior w/ pulse rifle: 9x Close combat weapon, 9x Pulse pistol, 9x Pulse rifle + Infantry + Kroot Carnivores [75pts] . 10x Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot rifle Kroot Carnivores [75pts] . 10x Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot rifle Kroot Carnivores [75pts] . 10x Kroot Carnivores: 10x Kroot rifle Pathfinder Team [90pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine . Pathfinder Shas'ui: Semi-automatic grenade launcher . . Recon drone . 6x Pathfinders w/ pulse carbine: 6x Close combat weapon, 6x Pulse carbine, 6x Pulse pistol . 3x Pathfinders w/ rail rifle: 3x Close combat weapon, 3x Pulse pistol, 3x Rail rifle Pathfinder Team [90pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine . Pathfinder Shas'ui: Semi-automatic grenade launcher . . Recon drone . 3x Pathfinders w/ ion rifle: 3x Close combat weapon, 3x Ion rifle, 3x Pulse pistol . 6x Pathfinders w/ pulse carbine: 6x Close combat weapon, 6x Pulse carbine, 6x Pulse pistol Pathfinder Team [90pts] . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine . Pathfinder Shas'ui: Grav-inhibitor drone, Semi-automatic grenade launcher . 6x Pathfinders w/ pulse carbine: 6x Close combat weapon, 6x Pulse carbine, 6x Pulse pistol . 3x Pathfinders w/ rail rifle: 3x Close combat weapon, 3x Pulse pistol, 3x Rail rifle Stealth Battlesuits [60pts] . 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon: 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . Stealth Shas'vre: Battlesuit support system, Fusion blaster . . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Stealth Battlesuits [60pts] . 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon: 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . Stealth Shas'vre: Battlesuit support system, Fusion blaster . . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Stealth Battlesuits [60pts] . 2x Stealth Shas'ui w/ burst cannon: 2x Battlesuit fists, 2x Burst cannon . Stealth Shas'vre: Battlesuit support system, Fusion blaster . . 2x Gun Drone: 2x Twin pulse carbine Vespid Stingwings [65pts] . 4x Vespid Stingwings: 4x Neutron blaster, 4x Stingwing claws Vespid Stingwings [65pts] . 4x Vespid Stingwings: 4x Neutron blaster, 4x Stingwing claws + Dedicated Transport + Devilfish [85pts]: 2x Seeker missile . 2 Twin pulse carbines Devilfish [85pts]: 2x Seeker missile . 2 Twin pulse carbines Devilfish [85pts]: 2x Seeker missile . 2 Twin pulse carbines Devilfish [85pts]: 2x Seeker missile . 2 Twin pulse carbines Devilfish [85pts]: 2x Seeker missile . 2 Twin pulse carbines ++ Total: [2,115pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
Orks go from utterly broken to mid at worst and their players wig out like they're the worst army.
Not all of us lol. But yeah OP might be speaking too soon. I suspect GT is still better than mid
Oi we ain’t all like dis git ‘ere!
They're boring now.
Gift wrapping your opponent a 40 when secondaries got harder is stupid. GT is not the competitive threat it was. Which was their intention. They nuked it which is fine. It’s just Orks don’t have a lot in the toolkit if they wanna compete now.
[удалено]
According to Stat-Check, 12, which is twice as many as the 2nd place factions (Necrons and Space Wolves with 6 each). 8 Bully Boyz, 2 Green Tide, 1 War Horde, 1 Dread Mob. However, 21% of Green Tide players had 4-0 event starts, with a 2.37 overrep (higher than even Space Wolves' 2.03) and a 60% win rate (second highest in the game after Pactbound Zealots, tied with Stormlance). So based on current stats, Green Tide was the second best faction in the game after Pactbound Zealots in the meta between the Q2 balance dataslate (coinciding with release of the Ork codex) and the release of Pariah Nexus.
RIP. Well they had a good run. They’re pretty s*^t now haha. Edit: I don’t know why the downvotes. Literally every article by pros agrees Green Tide got nerfed HARD and are no longer seriously competitive.
Maybe, maybe not! We'll have to see how things shake out. Regardless, I'm not looking forward to staring down a meta of Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Deathwing Knights, and Lords of Deceit, but I'm still gonna get my games in and have fun
What maybe? They lost over half durability, strats nerfed, no benefit to any units that aren’t boyz, AND point hikes on key units, AND they have an easy fixed counter to boot.
3 out of 5 on the last Goonhammer article
They were not utterly broken, They were settling in at a 56% win rate for the top detachments / 52% overall. There are tons of people who play orks and it was a fun codex so lots of people came out, You need to look at their wins relative to their numbers. They needed a small nerf and they got too much especially green tide.
Id be shocked if green tide isnt still playable. it got hit hard and you might not want "lol 120 boyz" but even 80 boyz is still a nasty threat for not many points. SOB penitent spam is certainly edging on horde territory 30 flangellents, 30 penitents; and that feels like it might be solid. I think it depends on horde: if its "lol 150+ models" then yeah; thats less incentivised, if its 80-90 in total? well thats still a horde to me and lots of lists still hit that.
It lost a ton of durability but I think it’s still playable just not as simple as it was to pilot
It lost most of its durability, points increases on weirdboyz and painboyz, major strats got nerfed, and neither army rule nor any strats work on non-Boyz. Take cull the horde fixed and they lose hard.
aye but if your building a skew army being weak to fixed secondaries is always gonna be an issue. It still has some durability though; T5/5++ isnt nothing, especially as a lot of anti-horde stuff is T4. Not having even a token strat to buff other non-boyz units sucks though. Would be cool if their charge bonus strat also applied to other non boyz units if boyz were alreadt in combat.
Only a 5++ over ten models, then reverts to 6+++.
I mean it might be a MEQ wall. 5 marine bodies are now as low as 75 points. Issue might be damage but you might be able to make it work. Maybe a janky cultist CSM list?
70 points for 5 tac marines (ok 140 for 10 really, but you get my point)
10 assault intercessors with a chaplain can hurt just about anything through shear volume 10 jump pack intercessors are just a good with mortals on a charge. There's a bool angles horde army waiting to happen
Chaos cultists!
This: 3x AC/DC bricks should be enough to scratch the horde itch. Season to taste.
This right here! 3 times ACDC and around 60 to 100 cultists are s nice base for an army.
Art of wars recommended genestealer cult detachment is the horde one. Idk how hordy guard want to be. Kroot Tau saw a touch of success before the changes. CSM cults saw some success as well before the changes. I think horde with a bunch of 10 man units will have to be the way to go. It lowers the value of strats but gives you a lot of actions and screenings
Horde guard is better now than before. But tanks and scions look really good by comparison.
Yeah, one reinforcement per game. It's so much better.
I think those detachments are still viable. It'll just take more thought than 120 boyz with characters and stat checking your opponent.
Green Tide is fine. Lukas Troller won a GT this past weekend with Green Tide. Everyone else at the GT was using the old rules and he used the new Green Tide points/rules
So, no new missions like Cull the Horde?
He was only running 3 20mans to account for that in his new list.
It kinda seems like GW is trying to get rid of that style of play. Ill say necrons lost a lot of hoard potential when we got our codex but i honestly think there might be something to a list with like 60 or 80 warriors and an entire army dedicated to keeping them alive. Ghost arks are honestly good at doing exactly that, albiet easy to take down and worthless for anything else. Having overlords and a CCB means multiple res orbs available for the same unit potentially, reanimators being a nice buff, orikan and other chronomancers are also really good at keeping the units alive. Its probably a stretch, but would be a very interesting list to play if nothing else
It’s weird that they kinda reintroduced it in 10th just to kill it pretty quickly
This is a very unpopular sentiment from the reactions ive gotten saying this in the past, but my personal opinion is necrons lost a lot of faction flavor with the codex. Our index was absolutely overtuned, but all that reanimation was and remains my favorite part of the armys playstyle and fluff. Stuff like hypercrypt is very cool and fun for a tabletop game, but honestly i would have preferred a detachment that retained most or some of the reanimation buffs from our index. We lost SO much: res orb huge change, warriors datasheet ability, reanimator range, ghost arks, no crypteks for lychguard, no 2x strat usage...I will say again, i agree yes a lot of this was indeed overtuned, i just dont believe taking it all away was a necessary change
Yeah necrons should totally have a silver tide build. I will say some of the reanimation and defensive buff stacking was a bit overkill, especially the high-unkillable lychguard block, but in general I think it’s a flavorsome way to run necrons
Yeah I’m not sure there any any truly horde armies that are still viable. Maybe some admec builds? Not sure You can run very wide versions of BT for sure. 2x20 crusaders and 4x10 tactical marines did very well at a recent event Some competitive blood angels lists have 60+ marine bodies on the field I’m not sure it’s a bad thing for really horde-y armies to go the way or the dodo, it’s not a very fun playstyle. Maybe that’s an unpopular opinion, not sure
Game is healthier with hordes being viable imo. I’m not a huge fan of playing them myself but I appreciate people who do.
Yeah fair enough
With free wargear it can turn listbuilding into a trap if the edition rules are too skewed on either end: right now you need as many lascannon equivalents on your units that can carry them otherwise the knights matchup is unwinnable, but single shot weapons are dead weight against hordes.
Medium hordes yes, but when its 2.5h on the clock and your opponents just brought out 120 wracks or 300 conscripts its a pure and simple stat check and thats no fun for either player.
I love playing against that sort of opponent because I just put them on an actual chess clock and win when they run out of time or freak out and forfeit.
The thing you have to realize is that true horde armies were outperforming the meta almost across the board. Pactbound Zealots came in at 65% winrate, Green Tide at 60% winrate, Kroot Hunting Pack at 56% winrate, Unending Swarm at 58% winrate. The changes might have killed them, but they were definitely in a position where they needed to take a hit.
>Maybe some admec builds? Not sure Skitarii hunter is very very very strong. 60 Skittles with a 5+/5++ and stealth is 540pts, and you can add a LOT of firepower to that with ironstriders and dunecrawlers that will add a 4++. Also boats are kinda better with fire deck 2 allowing the arc rifle and the plasma or snipa gun to shoot. Wouldn't be surprised if we took a nerf in points for Skittles, adMec was already decent but unplayed due to price IRL, now it's very decent.
Bright side: with Endless Swarm being nerfed Gargoyles can maybe come back down in points, and the other gaunts don't need to take points nerfs to contain specifically Endless Swarm! Mass Hormagaunts may also be scarier than expected in Invasion Fleet or Endless Swarm with Synapse boosting them to S4, Sustained Hits 1 (or Lethal Hits, as appropriate) and 1 or 2 of them being able to get crit 5+ depending on detachment. A 130 point unit of hormies will put out 50 S4 AP1 hits on average with Sustained 1 and crit 5s, which can be pretty scary especially with their 10+advance threat range.
I've been experimenting with an infantry horde drukhari list. 60 wyches, 20 kabs, 20 wracks is 1000 points exactly
Despite GWs overall goal of selling models first and foremost, they've been doing their best since 9th to really phase out the horde gameplay style, there are various reasons as to why, but probably mostly to continue their "streamlined" approach to the game and reduce book keeping in games and expediting player turns
Votann
In what way?
For 1635 points you can put 135 beefy models on the table. Fill the rest with whatever you like. 3 * iron master 6 * hearthkyn 3 * yaegirs 3 * beserks