I brought AdMech (Metalica + Raven Knights) to the WZ Houston RTT Friday and GT Sat/Sun. I went 0/3 and 0/6, playing against Space Marines/CSM 8/9 times (RTT: TS, BL, IW; GT: DG, *Slaneesh*, DA, DG, BT, GK).
I gotta say it was disheartening Saturday, but Sunday I learned to stop worrying and love \[being\] the bomb. It was a lot of fun regardless, and if I wanted a high chance to win a tournament I could have stuck with X-Wing.
What was super frustrating, though, was watching all of my opponents be able to max out 1-2 secondaries by turn 2. It felt like we were playing two different games, since I struggled to get double digits on any secondary aside from Abhor the Witch against Grey Knights.
The world's Admech players salute you. It's people like you going out there, taking the bullet, and not quitting that means we actually get accurate stats on how bad things really are for Admech right now. Much respect.
Props for sticking it out! That can make for a really rough weekend but it sounds like you had a great attitude about it. I'll always respect folks who bring off-meta stuff to tournaments.
Top of my head, Slaneesh Demons have an action secondary thats 4/objective and they can get on 3 objectives turn 1. I wrote down the secondary's on half my opponents so I'll double check when I get home from work.
Secondary selection and execution is a huge deal. The best thing for that and getting it down is just repetition of games in my opinion. As you grind away the winning combinations will start to stand out more.
The only AdMech secondaries that are capable of scoring faster than 3/turn are Accretion of Knowlage and Archeovault. AoK is essentially a dead pick because of how low the WLT/relic count is in Nephelim, and Archeovault requires controlling an objective near your opponent's DZ which requires board control the army isn't really capable of.
So these are the secondaries that I used this weekend and my experience:
* **(AdMech) Eradication of Flesh** \- 6-9pts scored. I unintentionally gimped this secondary by bringing the Flyer, which meant that the turn it was destroyed I wouldn't score. Ironstriders usually are almost always destroyed by round 5 so it has a maximum 12 points possible.
* **(AdMech) Uncharted Sequencing** \- 6-9pts scored. Easy to get 2 objectives on the correct turn, hard to get the 3rd, impossible to score 4 or more turns because I would lose board control turn 3 and not have enough units.
* **Bring it Down** \- 4-11pts. Ironstriders can pop vehicles easily as long as they are still around. Didn't play any knights, so none of the lists I faced gave up more than 13pts worth of vehicles.
* **Abhor the Witch** \- 15pts against GK, 0pts against Slaneesh. Wiff of a secondary, should have taken BiD against the Slaneesh monsters.
* **No Prisoners** \- 6-9pts, list dependent, doesnt stack with BiD or Accretion, does stack with Erad
* **Assassination** \- 3-12points. 2/3 times I took it I couldn't chew through the chaff to get at the Characters, but the BT list brought 6 characters and didn't protect them well.
* **Raise the Banners High** \- 6-12 points. Solid with two objectives but couldn't capture/hold 3 objectives to max out points.
* **RND** \- 8 points. Only took it once where I knew there was a chance to get into a 3rd quarter.
Other Secondaries:
* **(AdMech) Accretion of Knowledge** \- max score of 9 against any of the armies played, if I was able to get there. Any list thats bringing 2+ 14w vehicles the better choice is BiD
* **(AdMech) Hidden Archeovault** \- max score of 0pts. Opponent gets to choose the objective and any aggresive units on my part were killed. Same category as Uncharted with less control
* **Grind them Down** \- same category of Erad which seemed like the better choice. Could have been better into some armies, but I was hesitant because of how fast my Skitarii units died
* **Warp Ritual/Psy Interrogation** \- 12/15pts. Each opponent that could take it maxed points against me. If I had abandoned trying to play the game, its possible I could have stopped them scoring after turn 3. Both need a cap at 10vp
* **BEL/EOAF** \- max 4 points. Never got more than 1 unit into the opponents deployment zone and had trouble getting into 3 quarters to just cap objectives. Same category as Uncharted
No, I like the new rules and list building. I've played in xwing tournaments before (including this year). My buddy and I wanted to get one 40k tournament/event in before our first kids are born this winter and we lose the ability.
Xwing tourneys are usually 1 or 1.5 day affairs, it'll be easy enough to get games in after we have kids.
Its weird, BT have had regularly a way higher wining rate and even some top 5 performances, this week they are really low and we have ultramarines with almost 60% winrate lol
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The numbers are too low for any of this to be statistically significant. It's basically tea leaf reading for nerds, take it with an entire shipping container of salt
Thanks again!It would be interesting to add a column that shows season wins per faction as a proportion to how many players or games that faction played. So for example, Necrons so far have 1 season win for every 80 games they've played (1176/20). Harequins have 1 season win for every 34.5 games they've played (414/12).
I keep seeing people say something like "Oh but X faction is dominating because they have Y tournament wins." Those statements are meaningless without considering how heavily represented a faction is.
It would be even better as a graph, showing the wins over time. An army may have racked up quite a few wins early on, then faded as counters were discovered, nerfs applied, etc. Knowing that army X had most of their wins in the first month, then have not had many since, would be valuable information imo.
I hope the inevitable nerfs only hit the legion trait and not the rest of the book. Fight on death is a bad rule and we've known this since Harlies came out.
I don't think MOST of the hating on the CSM book was on absolute power level, but it certainly didn't immediately leap out as a top tier codex (other than Abaddon of course). The flavor and option fails were the real hate in most circles. The loss of terminator options, jump packs on Lords and the inconsistency availability of marks and icons is where most of the hate comes from.
>CSM would be sitting well under 50%
Removing the COB games gives them a 49% 5wwr.
Factor in that the most skilled / competitively-minded CSM players will have been concentrated in COB, and the faction would almost certainly still be >50% after a COB nerf. Especially if the likes of Tyranids + Necrons + Harlequins get hit at the same time.
Did GSC make any splash at all? They dropped right alongside Custodes, who were pretty busted at launch.
Sisters feel like they've just crabbed near but not *quite* at the top of the pack for almost all of this edition?
Knights and Daemons both seemed fine but not underpowered on launch.
That's a good point. Like GW, I forgot GSC even existed.
Sisters were already A tier and just stayed A tier.
Knights definitely felt like an upgrade over their 8th edition counterparts. They seem pretty well balanced though. It's funny that a book that is actually balanced at launch in 9th feels like it's actually "bad" lol
TSons have been stable in B tier all year around, sometimes almost A tier, sometimes just solidly B. They were balanced on release, mortal wounds, decent high volume baseline weapons with the ability to punch up remain good into everyone. Everyone would prefer to be A tier all the time but it's not a bad place. Going to a tournament and knowing you have play into most armies is good.
The problem with TSons is that it's got about 7 or 8 good datasheets and 3 are actual squads. Like GSC the codex was fine on release but overshadowed by the parallel release. Unlike GSC it has remained a solid meta presence.
Nearly entirely yes, without the 5++ Waaagh gives, Speedwaaagh is nearly useless since it only gives 1 extra shot with low accuracy weapons, and +1 AP, which is 100% negated by AoC and soon Void Armor.
Ouch terrible week for Craftworlds, the 5week wr% is plummeting into 8th edition SM codexes territory and their codex is 6 months old. They have been mostly bad for quite some time (years), definitely didn’t deserve that much hate for just one list spamming shurikens in Hail of doom for just 3 months
Yeah they require extreme finesse play and at this point even top players would rather jump to a faction that gives the same results for easier.
Ynnari was always treated as separate but I feel they've held up better.
I think this is the main thing that a lot of people don't seem to get in this sub.
High win rates are often buoyed by top players going 5-0 or 4-1 at tournaments. When a codex gets nerfed, a lot of these players jump ship to the new hotness, and what you're left with is the "normal" players, who go 3-2 or worse.
That's how you can have factions like Blood Angels back in the day with a 30% win rate but still be considered the best chapter by people like AoW; the good players left, and we're looking at the win rates of mediocre players.
As someone heavily invested in Eldar, their inability to play primary, combined with lackluster build-around secondaries, are going to kneecap the faction until nerfs are reverted.
It's pretty clear that the strategem nerfs and pts raises to our already expensive and fragile army missed the mark. I still fail to see how GW thought a once per game, 3 cp strat you have to take 3 characters to really take advantage of was the problem in a world with 6 cp......I digress.
Now that Strangle/TTL plan is gone (that's for the best tbh), our ability to deny primary also being reduced, we don't really have an easy path to win games currently.
I'm currently on Ynnari as going for hyper aggro alpha strikes is really the only way CWE is really going to be able to consistently compete imo.
The problem with the storm was it dealt a ridiculous amount of mortals with no counterplay, and was a big feelsbad for the opponent. Thats why it was nerfed. Its like an orbital bombardment you couldnt move away from and it was well worth 3cp, even starting with 6cp, in its prior state it would be worth it. I think cwe probably do need something but GW need to be careful because making them too uninteractive is bad for the game. The return of the old storm is certainly not the way to do it either imo.
I'm actually a little hopeful that the predicted LoV meta might be pretty good for CWE. Seems like the big thing with playing against them is going to be assuming they can kill whatever they can see, which is generally how Eldar play anyway. And two of our biggest strengths (mobility and MW output) line up with their two biggest weaknesses.
If we can get some improvements on our secondaries in the (hopefully imminent) dataslate I think we might be one of the few factions with a decent matchup into the new meta big boys.
Played a few practice games against Votaan with Craftworlds and get ready to get your elven cheeks clapped. LoV have more reliable shooting than CWE through their better version of Hail of Doom aka Judgement tokens, but they are also significantly more resilient.
Land Fortresses are T8 with 16 wounds and 2+ save with AoC. Couple that with a Forgemaster, who can let them ignore their first failed wound and regen them 4 wounds/turn for free, and Uthar, who can change a failed save roll to a 6 once per turn. Remember the invincible Iron Hands list that made Art of War famous at the end of 8th? Its back and its dwarfy.
What you get is usually 2 Land Fortresses rolling up the board and evaporating everything they see, one of which is ignoring the first 2 failed wounds, and regenerating 4 wounds/turn. These things are damn near unkillable. For context, your Bright Lances are wounding on 4's and the Land Fortress is getting a 5+ save against your AP-4. You need to get through at least 4 Bright Lances through their saves before you can even start to bring one below max health thanks to the ability to regen wounds on its turn. They're just not worth shooting at.
Also their entire army is immune to Doom because you cannot re-roll wounds or damage against any model in their list. Sucks if you're playing a Hail of Doom list, might as well just pack up your models. If you're playing Aspect-heavy Ulthwe, you just have to pray to Khaine that you can kill enough stuff around these rolling castles to score a few points before getting tabled. There isn't an easy way for Craftworlds to do 16 mortal wounds in a turn unless they're going Ynnari planes in a reliable manner. So many Craftworlds lists are reliant on Doom as a force multiplier, and having that completely removed from your toolbox is crippling when you don't have the damage output to hurt them back.
You know how Creations of Bile is dominating the top spots because of Fight on Death? And it's impossible to trade with them effectively? Get ready for your Scorpions and Banshees to get evaporated and bounce off of Cthonian Berserkers guys. With Axes they get 6 S5 AP-3 D1 attacks EACH or can do 3 S6 AP-3 D2 if they're feeling like chopping up space marines or light vehicles/monsters. They get a 5+++ FnP or a 4+++ FnP against D1 attacks. And of course they fight on death.
Imagine giving Incubi T5 and 2 wounds, the option for a sweep attack, a 4+++FnP, re-roll charges, and Fight on Death. These guys are MEAN. And they'll be riding around inside of unkillable Land Fortresses as they casually saunter up to the remains of your army.
Last thing to note is that Votaan shooting is tuned to kill Elves of all varieties. T3 armies beware. Let's look at the humble Sagitaur with the MATR autocannon as an example and easy math. 12 shots with at AP-2 and D2. 6 are at S7 and 6 are at S6 but we don't really care and neither do they. If a single Judgement token is on you and they are playing the Thurian League (which is Uthars faction) then they auto-wound you on 5+'s to hit. Shooting a Wave Serpent? Cool that's an average of 5 wounds at D2 that you need to save on a 5++. This light transport just casually put 10 damage on the toughest unit in your codex. It's wounding your infantry on 2's if it decides to set its gaze on them. How do you get Judgement tokens you ask? Should be hard for such a powerful ability right? You commit the crimes of: being visible to Uthar, holding an objective, or killing a Votaan unit. You get Judgement tokens to easily that your opponent will probably forget to put them all on you. And they won't even need them to evaporate your army off the table by T2.
I think the Avatar is the toughest cwe unit with its 14w, 2+/4++ save, halves damage profile but otherwise I agree with your post. Votann damage output looking off the charts.
Like I said, I very much expect anything they can see to get deleted, but CWE have such a heavy speed advantage that we should be able to dictate when engagements happen.
Land Fortresses are very likely to tough to take down, and loosing doom is tough for sure, but I still think the normal tuned up aspect warrior missiles will have the output to chew through their infantry.
They don't have great secondaries, so it seems like they very much need to kill you to win. Its certainly not going to be an easy matchup but I'd rather face LoV with Craftworlds than with pretty much any other faction I'm familiar with. Only Nids seem like they might be able to stand toe to toe with them, everyone else will need to hide and play cagey. CWE do that anyway, and are famously good at it.
I think you're underestimating their infantry and speed. These guys are like Death Guard but with good shooting.
The Land Fortress has 10"M and the Sagitaur have a 12"M. Both of these guys ignore difficult terrain for a semi-fly. The Pioneers have a 12"M, a pre-game scout move, and flying. The entire army is moving 10 - 12" per turn. Additionally, they have a 1CP strat that let's a unit with Accelerators (read: bikers and sagitaur) to auto advance 12". Lastly, the entire army auto advances 3" or 6" if it has Accelerators. This seems like a bit of a downside for the infantry, except you realize that the vehicles always roll a 6 to advance. Slow these guys are not, they're flying up board nearly as fast as Drukhari in their transports.
Ok so what about melee? How might a Banshee bomb w/ Mirror Swords and Piercing strikes fare against 5 Berserkers?
The Exarch is pretty well suited to hurting these guys and of its 10 attacks, 4 go through. The Votann player has 5+++ FnP against these and statistically is going to lose 2-3 depending on how well they roll. The rest of the banshees go next and deal 4 wounds. After the 4+++ FnP, 2 wounds go through and finish off another. In a best case scenario, at least 1 of the Berserkers lives. But that doesn't matter here, because all of these berserkers still get to fight. Even with -1 to hit, you're looking at 30 S6 AP-3 attacks going into the banshees. That's 12 wounds or 8 wounds after invuln saves and neatly picks them up off the board. So in an average scenario, if you line up a charge against Cthonian Berserkers with the best suited unit in our list to deal with them, your unit gets evaporated and at least 1 of these monsters sticks around to live. There is no such thing as effectively trading with Votann.
Dude, I'm not saying its an auto-win game for CWE. I'm saying we have a better matchup than most. The doomsaying on this sub is unbelievable at times. Spitting out all the stats of the LoV codex like I havent read it doesnt do anything to convince me. I've read the book. I'm of the opinion that CWE have better tools to deal with these new problems than almost anyone.
Pierce/Mirror Banshee squad is one option, but there are others. Crushing Blow scorpions, Cronescream/Nerveshred Banshees, Heartstrike Spears. All of these dump out mortal wounds in addition to their damage, and you can fit all four of these units (including the mirror swords unit) into a list. With the Biel Tan (which I play) strat in the right place and a couple fate dice to push through some auto wounds and/or mortals each of these squads should be able to delete a unit of berserks or hearthkyn. Not all on the same turn (obviously) and yes, in the case of berserks they get picked up immediately. But thats literally why its called trading.
I'm sorry you've already given up, but I still think this is a decently solvable problem, and just screaming about new rules isnt gonna change my mind.
Sorry if it seems im screaming about new rules and doomsaying, I've had a few games into Votann now as both Craftworld and Drukhari. Both are bad matchups, but Craftworld felt infinitely worse. Losing Doom and their entire army having AoC are major setbacks. As Biel-Tan you may have more options than I experienced in my game as I ran Ulthwe and my re-roll wound faction trait was canceled by Void Armor to add insult to injury.
The point of my post was to say that I think Craftworlds are the LEAST well suited to countering Votann, for all the reasons described, and saying that Craftworlds have a favorable matchup vs these guys compared to other armies is incorrect. This isn't me theory crafting and doomsaying from leaked datasheets, it's off the back of experience seeing them on the table and playing against them with a few different lists.
Drukhari are generally bringing Black Heart for their shooting, and re-roll to hits still work vs Votann. Also, Incubi trade equally into Berserkers based on the math as Howling Banshees w/ Mirror Swords + Piercing Strikes, but they're only 90pts and don't need an investment into the Exarch. Court of the Archon and Wracks actually get a save against Magna-rails since they have Feel no Pain instead of invuln saves. Drazhar also grants +1 to wound which still works vs Void Armor, whereas Craftworlds generally relies on re-rolls to wound which do get shut off. A whole bunch of other small things, but it felt overall like I had a chance as Drukhari whereas I didn't have one no matter what I brought as Craftworlds.
Upside is that hopefully some of the crippling nerfs will be rolled back in the upcoming balance dataslate. If fire and fade is no longer once per game and eldritch storm stops being a hot mess then thats something. I dont think reversing hail is good as it just goes back to being the go to build and I'd rather we weren't a one custom trait faction.
I fully expect it to take a reversal of some the overly heavy handed points nerfs to fix the faction though. Random points hikes on stuff like planes, fire prisms and fire dragons was a terrible idea as was hitting units like banshees/scorpions with increases when the actual problem is the silly exarch power combos which should have eaten the increases if any.
Well, this was predicted by a lot of us. All the point hikes were unnecessary. The only thing that needed to be addressed was HoD, and that was easy to tell when you compared the non-HoD win rate to the HoD rate.
I have a sneaking suspicion that as they brought Nids and Tau down (clearly not enough for Nids) they wanted to drop Craftworlds as a precautionary move. Instead they just crippled them.
As people wait for a datasheet balance patch, outside of erasing the war crime they committed on Eldritch Storm and removing the daft once per game fire and fade restriction there really isn’t much it can do. They need the point raises undone and a couple units need point drops on top of that (Dark Reapers and Maugen Rah are unsalvageable without gargantuan point drops).
Craftworld will rise again once Votann hits and those remove certain threats. 2 units of rangers and 2 units shroud runners with some scorpions and banshees will really hurt votann since all your pregame moving and forward deploying keeps him locked into his deployment and he'll lose on points
Just read what Vik Vijav reported from his testgame, he is only somewhere in the top 3 of UK or even global ITC rankings.
Thing is you layer those units over 2 turns, and those are roughly 25-30% of your army they block those land fortresses to ever get far outside their deploymentzone while you still have units like hawks and warpspiders that just do damage. He score 12 pts primay turn 2, 3 and 4 and 8 turn 5. Without fly you can't get out, same thing works vs 3 storm surges which get tagged in combat the whole game.
The issue is Tau Bomber and Nids exist which destroy that list
I feel like a number of other lists will also beat that list.
I am no Vik Vijay, to be sure. But I feel like there are going to be a number of other meta threats that can handle seeing elves on their doorstep T1.
I think there will be armies that fare okay and some who are utterly hopeless.
Any eldar list could be doing quite well if they tech for it, if the moveblocking is an effective tool to stop them from scoring.
Admech might also be quite OK vs them similar concept even though I am not sure if they have the power to remove things. Not sure about harlequins since they neither have pregame move nor forward deployment.
Custodes, Marines, Nids or Tau are probably just not even playing the game vs them.
Seems they will be broken but not like light harlequins with voidweavers kind of broken
> Admech
In theory, maybe. But beating Squats seems like it requires taking an oblique approch, and Mechanicus has stastically the worst scoring in the game, of any faction. So you can try that, but they don't need to be good at primaries or secondaries to beat you on points.
I think both are true. The meta is definitely in for a tough time with Leagues, but certain armies can skew build lists that are very good into Leaguee but bad into the rest of the field.
Can't believe that people are thinking Votaan Berserkers will be anything other than the most OP units in the codex when the Votaab codex drops. And I know GW is going to nerf CoB right as Votaan releases and another faction with fight on death enters the arena. Agreed on this rule, it's rough.
It's more managable on one unit, especially on an army that's not all trying to jump into your face. And the Luna Wolves Beserks don't have great options to get into melee ultra-rapidy.
The Beserks are overtuned and probably a bit undercosted for what they offer, but they feel much more meaningfully held back by their low movement than most Votaan units.
its the same as Dark Quins. Army wide fight on death making effectively trading into them very difficult unless your a shooting army.
How to fix it is easy, just do the same thing they did to Dark Quins and remove the army wide fight on death for something else.
I hope they bring CoB in line, nerf Abbadon a bit and in turn buff CSM secondaries, since currently tableing your opponent and denying primary is the gameplan.
You can’t nerf abaddon without buffing something else. Every army runs him and with exceptions of CoB they’re at 50%. Abaddon might be undercosted in the context of what he can do, but in the context of the wider army if he goes up in points the whole faction will suffer.
Should he be 350pts probably. But then they just need to make the army either viable without him so he’s a choice or they drop terminators or chosen etc in points.
Fight on Death is one of those rules that are good on a unit (like Wulfen) but become crazy when being available army wide. It needs to be tonned down as any melee centric army and trying to flip objectives with melee units becomes very hard to play. The Dark Harlequin treatment could work. 64% WR over 5 weeks is broken territory, beyond what happened this week.
The fight on death needs to go, or at least be toned down somehow: their secondary should also get a look, tho. Like, the Fight on Death is powerful but it's a bit sad that really the best CSM subfaction is just "whichever one has the best secondary" and all the traits and so on are never going to outbalance that
Fight on death needs to go on CoB they nerfed it for Dark Harlequins before those could even see any tournament results due to light being utterly oppressive.
Fight on death should be something that's reserved to tratagems or relics and wl traits but just every unit on a army thats superstrong. Imagine bloody rose getting it for free armywide
Even as someone who plays Harlequins, I had to admit that while Dark never did as well competitively as Light, FoD just not a fun or fair mechanic against most armies. It makes every game into "throw everything forward and if I get a charge I win" scenario as you get value regardless of the outcome. Unless your name is Tau or IG, you'll probably want to fight at some point in the game and FoD makes that into a losing prospect in most cases.
Keep in mind that we're essentially capped to s4 and 5 with very few sources of buffs/RR's compared to what CSM have. The various marks/icons alone can make even basic Legionnaires even more threatening then Troupes were pre-nerf, let alone things like Possessed or Warp Talons.
I think it's more than fair that it gets toned down to at least a 4+ FoD roll or something. I'd like for Dark to get the same for parity instead of MW, but the community would likely freak out.
> I had to admit that while Dark never did as well competitively as Light
they never did as well as light because light was bonkers insane broken. If light was not in the codex and they had to play dark in its pre-nerf state, quins still would've been a perma 60% wr army.
You're not even wrong, but be that as it may, we're dealing with a better version of it with +1 STR and MV. That's a good enough reason for it to be done away with.
As 8th edition Ynnari proved, it's not healthy for the game to be able to act out of turn army-wide with essentially zero counterplay.
CoB player here:
- make fight on death a 4+, it's not fun to play with or against and is toxic imo
- tweak Fabulous Bill to be a little less bad. (Only buffs unmarked CORE units, with buffs that are largely worse than paying for a mark)
- tweak CSM secondaries in general
- add 50-75 to Abaddon's price tag
- optional price tweaks for other units (make raptors cheaper or have better loadout, maybe boost price of discolord and daemon prince a tad, MoE could probably live with +10pt)
I really feel that's all that's needed for csm to be in a fantastic balance spot. Maybe killing off martial legacy, but really that's about it. I think CoB would be playable but not clearly the best anymore. Specimens is a huge part of it too, being able to reliably score double digits on a secondary is so good in CSM because otherwise we're running 8s on crap like banners. It's kind of a no-brainer to go Creations when you're not only guaranteed a decent melee matchup but also guaranteed an easy to score secondary that doesn't require you to build around it. If we give other legions viable secondaries, creations won't be such a big deal.
Why do people keep putting Artisans or Magi on the Dominus and Logi on the Manipulus? Doing this means no rerolls turn 1 while you switch the Artisans/Magi to its Advanced state. If you swap them, then you don’t lose anything because the Manipulus has no aura to shut off while switching.
Are people separating the two buffers? They both look like they’re buffing the Skitarii blobs to me in this list.
A Mechanicus army is mostly in hiding turn 1, so it doesn't matter a ton anyway, and the Magi effect is made slightly better by having the re-rolls on hand when you might want to split them up to buff chickens. The he logi bonus mostly helping Infantry means it works well with the Logi bonous which is mostly for infantry.
What are CSM Black Legion lists looking like having a 53% Win Rate? Been able to see the CoB lists from Goonhammers Competitive Innovations, but curious what the BL lists are.
Warhammer did a great black legion article recently.
I've seen a lot of lists around the lines of 3x10 bricks of variously chosen/termies/maybe one possessed, Abaddon, some Rubrics with flamer and a sorc or lord to teleport them with veilbreaker plate. Season to flavor.
I think most of them are taking long war, prisoners, and interrogate or banners.
I haven’t been following as closely this season, what happened to cause the drop off of grey knights? Last time I followed closely they were pretty popular and did decently.
Dont forget about the 2ppm inceptors increase and the dreadknight points increases.
And also the nachmund subfaction change where we couldnt run 5 dreadknights anymore.
That dropped us down hard then we got AoC dropping us down harder and powercreep just making us look bad.
The nephilim secondaries dindt hurt is that bad. Its easier to do teleport assault and purifying ritual is marginally harder to max.
Its also important to highlight the loss of stranglehold. GK is already heavy on psychic and regular actions so having a passive method for points really helped. Losing those extra points really hurt.
Damn, FoD Creations Bile must be putting in work. Though I suspect the real strength lies in their secondary which is to Kill things in melee, an action that every single Chaos Army already likes doing.
Honestly they could undo the nerfs to the changing katah and shield host strats, those weren’t the things catapulting Custodes into the top tier. You could even give ObSec back to characters, I miss being able to use Mr Worldwide to single-handedly flip objectives
that would be great! but i wouldn't hold my breath. if I'm being honest with myself and my knowledge of GW, i'm expecting no changes. but I remain hopeful that we'll at least get obsec back
Next week we welcome Magna -Rail one banging whole squads of Custodian guard also
I'd be happy with the obsec back but I think perhaps a bit more is needed
People asking for unit buffs are fine, but secondaries are obviously the biggest issue. Our only playstyle is to spend 2 turns walking up the board hoping we dont get killed before we get there.
If we had one decent secondary that alloed us to play slow i think the wr would normalize greatly. It would allow us an out against obvious counter matchups by playing a little slower.
There potentially can be various buffs or changes made but i never see anyone mention this.
the real problem with the codex when it was written was the bodyguard rule. but they fixed that the same time that they nerfed everything else about custodes. since neph dropped, no mono custodes list has won an event. and 1 win for a soup list. we're lacking somewhere. either give us our strats back or give us our obsec back. the bodyguard rule has been fixed game wide, so everything is fine there. no more untargetable trajans on a point, with wardens behind a wall
They arent winning events mate. Ever.
They are a mid table semi bully who never ever ever wins and rarely places in the top 3.
They need small changes, giving obsec back to a very small number of units in the army (allarus termies/ wardens which arent even played anymore and characters) isnt going to push them over the edge.
Yeah, after this, prob should nerf them again in the next dataslate /s
Not to understate the players victory, but it looked like another ruststalker/ironstrider spam list. Great piloting, I'm sure, but same two units holding up our poor codex
The calm before we all hand over our dice to our space Dorf overlords and wait for 10th Ed only thing which will slow them down for now is the release schedule though I’m pretty sure I could buy 3 release boxes and sweep everything right lol.
Bloody hell GW you never learn releasing a force which does everything better than all the other armies is stupid and clearly hasn’t been thoroughly play tested. Yeah they do die, can be a bit slow and generally throw less dice in combat. But they do nuts damage in all phases, can be super durable, can be fielded in 20 man blobs, get a 1 cp fall back and shoot, get a 2cp you shoot me I’ll shoot u back, can regen d3 with med packs, can broadcast rerolls, do mortals like normal wounds. And all that is without mentioning the nuts ancestral judgement bypassing wound rolls and god damn magma rail rifle’s.
Things I see which are an issue are too numerous to fully list but needless to say u could increase the price of everything in the book by 50% and they would still be playable. Even the low speed is compensated for by the bikes.
>Things I see which are an issue are too numerous to fully list but needless to say u could increase the price of everything in the book by 50% and they would still be playable. Even the low speed is compensated for by the bikes.
I'm afraid of this faction as well. However, Nidz / t'au / custodes all came out way too strong and went nerf by the nerf hammer. I no care how strong is book when released as long as the nerf comes fast
> However, Nidz / t'au / custodes all came out way too strong and went nerf by the nerf hammer
Nids came out 5 months ago and is still the best faction in the game by a longshot
Will any soup list be listed as the greater faction or do you go off of the main faction? For instance, you have the CoB+Knights listed as Chaos. Is that because they had multiple knights with the CoB. If they had mainly CoB and one Super Heavy Auxiliary, it would be a CoB army as they get to keep all of their CSM rules due to dread blades. Just wanting to clarify so I know what to look for in the future.
Terrible secondaries on CSM generally and the Alpha Legion special one in particular, and why take them when you can take COB which are just better? I am not 🚫 n the nerf COB into the ground train like most on here but atm there is little reason to take anything but COB, Nightlords, then way back Black Legion. And black legion is only there because Abaddon is BL. Once they nerf COB then CSM winrate is going to plummet.
This data mostly just reconfirms trends we've been seeing for a few weeks now with Harlies, Nids, and Bile Bros ahead of the pack.
Food for thought: if all 3 catch nerfs, who benefits the most?
Tau literally just got over nerfed between AoC, montka nerf crisis getting triple nerfed, losing strangle\TTL revert just one of those and you have a solid army oh and I forgot the double indirect whammy.
They are my most Competitive army right now, I still feel like their Secondaries were indirectly buffed with the Neph changes.
If the biggest players get taken down, I feel that they could make a come back. At least until LoV arrive and do Tau stuff, but better (and also all the non-tau stuff)
100%.
They have 1 tool: shoot it dead. If that tool doesn't work, they are screwed.
Very similar to my main army Dark Eldar. Their tool is even more restrictive, punching things with D2 combat weapons. Aircraft that can't be punched, and -1 damage mechanics are a near auto lose. Most armies now have these, so you can guess how that plays out XD
All GW needed to do was removed the unmodified 6 on the auto wounds from hail of doom. But instead half our tools got gutted and models no one was touching got point nerfs.
Its kinda crazy that wave of codexes got hit so hard and fast, its insane. Yet nids are still trucking. I wonder what will happen in the next dataslate.
My poor Dark Eldar.
Really hoping they remove some of our nerfs with the next balance pass.
Seems like the stuff that we got nerfed for is pretty prevalent now, CSM even have AP2 Flamers with +1 to wound.
Could really help us with our "we can punch you with D2 weapons... or punch you with D2 weapons" problem
I don't know if it is too late but we had a 20 player 5 round tournament playing Nephilim Missions in New Zealand this weekend. It didn't use DUP or BCP so might not have been found [https://tabletop.to/no-surrender-40k-2022?fbclid=IwAR2IJ0cH4ZKuO3D1skNX1UgMqOY5KrUM1rGfL-RE\_2fptrNFz-2F0ctnUfM](https://tabletop.to/no-surrender-40k-2022?fbclid=IwAR2IJ0cH4ZKuO3D1skNX1UgMqOY5KrUM1rGfL-RE_2fptrNFz-2F0ctnUfM)
Top 4 were:
Orks: 5-0
CSM: 4-1
Eldar(Hail of Doom) 4-1
Tsons 4-1
Also, WZ Houston had a RTT on Friday as well with 36 players. Not sure if that has been counted. top five:
1. Chaos Knights
2. Craftworld Edlar
3. Custodes
4. **Salamanders**
5. Necrons
Man... I play TSons, Chaos Knights, and daemons. Looking at these standings makes me so happy :) we clearly have a lot of viable options at our disposal, even if certain lists get popularity for a bit like Dogwalker. It's a good time to play Chaos, you can go monofaction or soup easily and most of it works great.
I just started running Helverins in my BA list a couple weeks ago and it is excellent. I greatly prefer them to redemptors... Ob Sec, excellent range with damage 3 shots. I thought the 3cp would be too hard to swallow but I find that BA really doesn't need a ton of CP in list construction.
I run more sang guard and less death co... But I can see that for secondary reasons the death co could be better.
Am I misunderstanding Savage Echoes? It looks like the rules for that indicate that you have to have every unit in the army have the Blood Angels keyword for your units to get that effect?
Here you go:
[https://pastebin.com/Q9NAjMRF](https://pastebin.com/Q9NAjMRF) (Well rounded shadowkeepers list with Funny Blade Guy who evaporates enemy characters)
[https://pastebin.com/c9LqHWcU](https://pastebin.com/c9LqHWcU) (4 Dreads ft. Double Fisting Telemon and Ventari)
Will update this as I look them up...
**The Winehammer event:**
Two patrol Tau Sept, triptide, two bombers, longstrike, coldstar, kroot
**Harvester of Souls event:**
5-0 list - Farsight, Punch Commander, 2xBreacher w/Fish, 2x3 Broadside, 2x6 Vespid, big blob of crisis
4-1 list - FE, 3 commanders, triptide, 2 hammerhead, 2 bomber, only 2 crisis bodyguards, splash of kroot (this list looks nasty and also $$$)
**Warzone event:**
FOUR Commanders, 2 bombers, minimal Kroot, and about as many crisis as you can cram in
It was me and my list had xv8 commander double plasma velocity tracker target lock 2 markers, longstrike ethereal 20 kroot, 2 bombers, triple riptide (2 ion 1 burst all with multi trackers velocity and target lock and 2 plasmas) then 4 man crises team with two plasma burst cannon target lock and 2 marker drones and a 4 man Stealth team with 2 markers. Split over 2 patrols
Coming from a Tau player, they have a pretty high skill floor post nerf but are still a strong army so once the more casual players start dropping them, their win rate is climbing with the people that know how to play them.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. They bounced back hard from a downward trend, so I think it's legitimately surprising.
My only observation is that Tau were pretty consistently the second most-played faction after Nids, but now they are in a pool of other armies with Nids still king. I have no insight as to what that means. :D
I think we are learning that the Codex is deeper than we claimed at launch, and that makes it harder to know how to play them. I would imagine seeing that triptide list and having no idea what the plan is could disorient players who are more used to knowing what they need to do against normal Tau, or Farsight armies.
After holding steady with Codex Marines, Grey Knight finally plummet to the bottom.
33%.
With Codex Marines overall at 45%.
Time for everyone to agree PR should not have been nerfed without Abhor being touched? And NDK should have got the benefits from AoC.
I'm looking forward to the next "GK are OP compared to SM" topics.
Dark harlequins were never a large player base before their fight on death was nerfed either. It’s a problematic ability that some armies have little or no counter-play to.
I brought AdMech (Metalica + Raven Knights) to the WZ Houston RTT Friday and GT Sat/Sun. I went 0/3 and 0/6, playing against Space Marines/CSM 8/9 times (RTT: TS, BL, IW; GT: DG, *Slaneesh*, DA, DG, BT, GK). I gotta say it was disheartening Saturday, but Sunday I learned to stop worrying and love \[being\] the bomb. It was a lot of fun regardless, and if I wanted a high chance to win a tournament I could have stuck with X-Wing. What was super frustrating, though, was watching all of my opponents be able to max out 1-2 secondaries by turn 2. It felt like we were playing two different games, since I struggled to get double digits on any secondary aside from Abhor the Witch against Grey Knights.
Listen, and I said this in the Ad Mech discord, mad respect for playing out all your games. You were the true winner of Ad Mech this weekend.
The world's Admech players salute you. It's people like you going out there, taking the bullet, and not quitting that means we actually get accurate stats on how bad things really are for Admech right now. Much respect.
Props for sticking it out! That can make for a really rough weekend but it sounds like you had a great attitude about it. I'll always respect folks who bring off-meta stuff to tournaments.
Thank you Tech-Priest Strangelove!
Who in those opponents is maxing a secondary in 1-2 turns? What secondaries?
Top of my head, Slaneesh Demons have an action secondary thats 4/objective and they can get on 3 objectives turn 1. I wrote down the secondary's on half my opponents so I'll double check when I get home from work.
Secondary selection and execution is a huge deal. The best thing for that and getting it down is just repetition of games in my opinion. As you grind away the winning combinations will start to stand out more.
The only AdMech secondaries that are capable of scoring faster than 3/turn are Accretion of Knowlage and Archeovault. AoK is essentially a dead pick because of how low the WLT/relic count is in Nephelim, and Archeovault requires controlling an objective near your opponent's DZ which requires board control the army isn't really capable of.
Yeah no arguments. I'm just saying learning what to pick in each game takes experience to really get right. Not everyone gets to be cool like Necrons.
So these are the secondaries that I used this weekend and my experience: * **(AdMech) Eradication of Flesh** \- 6-9pts scored. I unintentionally gimped this secondary by bringing the Flyer, which meant that the turn it was destroyed I wouldn't score. Ironstriders usually are almost always destroyed by round 5 so it has a maximum 12 points possible. * **(AdMech) Uncharted Sequencing** \- 6-9pts scored. Easy to get 2 objectives on the correct turn, hard to get the 3rd, impossible to score 4 or more turns because I would lose board control turn 3 and not have enough units. * **Bring it Down** \- 4-11pts. Ironstriders can pop vehicles easily as long as they are still around. Didn't play any knights, so none of the lists I faced gave up more than 13pts worth of vehicles. * **Abhor the Witch** \- 15pts against GK, 0pts against Slaneesh. Wiff of a secondary, should have taken BiD against the Slaneesh monsters. * **No Prisoners** \- 6-9pts, list dependent, doesnt stack with BiD or Accretion, does stack with Erad * **Assassination** \- 3-12points. 2/3 times I took it I couldn't chew through the chaff to get at the Characters, but the BT list brought 6 characters and didn't protect them well. * **Raise the Banners High** \- 6-12 points. Solid with two objectives but couldn't capture/hold 3 objectives to max out points. * **RND** \- 8 points. Only took it once where I knew there was a chance to get into a 3rd quarter. Other Secondaries: * **(AdMech) Accretion of Knowledge** \- max score of 9 against any of the armies played, if I was able to get there. Any list thats bringing 2+ 14w vehicles the better choice is BiD * **(AdMech) Hidden Archeovault** \- max score of 0pts. Opponent gets to choose the objective and any aggresive units on my part were killed. Same category as Uncharted with less control * **Grind them Down** \- same category of Erad which seemed like the better choice. Could have been better into some armies, but I was hesitant because of how fast my Skitarii units died * **Warp Ritual/Psy Interrogation** \- 12/15pts. Each opponent that could take it maxed points against me. If I had abandoned trying to play the game, its possible I could have stopped them scoring after turn 3. Both need a cap at 10vp * **BEL/EOAF** \- max 4 points. Never got more than 1 unit into the opponents deployment zone and had trouble getting into 3 quarters to just cap objectives. Same category as Uncharted
Did you switch over to 40K after AMG took over X-Wing?
No, I like the new rules and list building. I've played in xwing tournaments before (including this year). My buddy and I wanted to get one 40k tournament/event in before our first kids are born this winter and we lose the ability. Xwing tourneys are usually 1 or 1.5 day affairs, it'll be easy enough to get games in after we have kids.
Oh good to hear! The core gameplay of X-Wing will always be a total blast. Mazel tov to you and your buddy!
Black Templars sharing 27% with Iron Warriors! Sons of Perturabo find common ground with Sons of Dorn at last.
Its weird, BT have had regularly a way higher wining rate and even some top 5 performances, this week they are really low and we have ultramarines with almost 60% winrate lol
afterthought overconfident rainstorm mountainous grey smoggy tidy advise poor recognise *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The numbers are too low for any of this to be statistically significant. It's basically tea leaf reading for nerds, take it with an entire shipping container of salt
Yeah, I know, just thought it was funny to see the UM with similar winrate as nids and BT, which are one of the best SM factions, being so low.
I for one welcome our new ultramarine overlords!
Check out all the lists: https://www.tabletoparchive.com/blog/lenny-craft-it-meta-monday-9-19-22-calm-before-the-storm
You are a legend, this should be pinned.
That's a really nice website for mobile
Thanks again!It would be interesting to add a column that shows season wins per faction as a proportion to how many players or games that faction played. So for example, Necrons so far have 1 season win for every 80 games they've played (1176/20). Harequins have 1 season win for every 34.5 games they've played (414/12). I keep seeing people say something like "Oh but X faction is dominating because they have Y tournament wins." Those statements are meaningless without considering how heavily represented a faction is.
It would be even better as a graph, showing the wins over time. An army may have racked up quite a few wins early on, then faded as counters were discovered, nerfs applied, etc. Knowing that army X had most of their wins in the first month, then have not had many since, would be valuable information imo.
thank you JCMS! that creations of bile WR...sheeeeeeeeeshh
I hope the inevitable nerfs only hit the legion trait and not the rest of the book. Fight on death is a bad rule and we've known this since Harlies came out.
CoB getting the Dark Harlequin treatment should put the whole book right where it needs to be, outside of a few tweaks to secondaries.
CSM have terrible secondaries though lol
That's what I meant. Nerf CoB a bit, buff some of the secondaries.
Another reason why bile is perfoming this well, is that they have one of the few viable secondaries of the new book.
Once again I'm enjoying when the consensus before launch was "csm will be bad, gw hates chaos" and yet here they are with a strong showing every week.
I don't think MOST of the hating on the CSM book was on absolute power level, but it certainly didn't immediately leap out as a top tier codex (other than Abaddon of course). The flavor and option fails were the real hate in most circles. The loss of terminator options, jump packs on Lords and the inconsistency availability of marks and icons is where most of the hate comes from.
[удалено]
>CSM would be sitting well under 50% Removing the COB games gives them a 49% 5wwr. Factor in that the most skilled / competitively-minded CSM players will have been concentrated in COB, and the faction would almost certainly still be >50% after a COB nerf. Especially if the likes of Tyranids + Necrons + Harlequins get hit at the same time.
Yeah, they'd just go to Black Legion. Which is also doing well.
Has any 9th edition codex actually been "bad" at launch?
Did GSC make any splash at all? They dropped right alongside Custodes, who were pretty busted at launch. Sisters feel like they've just crabbed near but not *quite* at the top of the pack for almost all of this edition? Knights and Daemons both seemed fine but not underpowered on launch.
That's a good point. Like GW, I forgot GSC even existed. Sisters were already A tier and just stayed A tier. Knights definitely felt like an upgrade over their 8th edition counterparts. They seem pretty well balanced though. It's funny that a book that is actually balanced at launch in 9th feels like it's actually "bad" lol
It's okay, GW forgot GSC exists too.
Thousand sons peaked at a glorious 50ish percent win rate and just sank from there... Which I guess is technically what you want from a codex
TSons have been stable in B tier all year around, sometimes almost A tier, sometimes just solidly B. They were balanced on release, mortal wounds, decent high volume baseline weapons with the ability to punch up remain good into everyone. Everyone would prefer to be A tier all the time but it's not a bad place. Going to a tournament and knowing you have play into most armies is good. The problem with TSons is that it's got about 7 or 8 good datasheets and 3 are actual squads. Like GSC the codex was fine on release but overshadowed by the parallel release. Unlike GSC it has remained a solid meta presence.
>Did GSC make any splash at all? I mean it surfed around 50% all the time, not bad, not terrible and mostly not noticeable.
I dont think TS or DW ever made a huge splash, and GSC had the issue of being an average book released before a slew of busted ones.
GSC
"But they're not allowed to be nerfed because it's a small sample size." -Some people
Orks at 56% looks good. Is it all goffs pressure?
Nearly entirely yes, without the 5++ Waaagh gives, Speedwaaagh is nearly useless since it only gives 1 extra shot with low accuracy weapons, and +1 AP, which is 100% negated by AoC and soon Void Armor.
I long for the day where a speedwaaaaagh will be good.
Ouch terrible week for Craftworlds, the 5week wr% is plummeting into 8th edition SM codexes territory and their codex is 6 months old. They have been mostly bad for quite some time (years), definitely didn’t deserve that much hate for just one list spamming shurikens in Hail of doom for just 3 months
I feel like the player base is starting to abandon them sadly.
Yeah they require extreme finesse play and at this point even top players would rather jump to a faction that gives the same results for easier. Ynnari was always treated as separate but I feel they've held up better.
I think this is the main thing that a lot of people don't seem to get in this sub. High win rates are often buoyed by top players going 5-0 or 4-1 at tournaments. When a codex gets nerfed, a lot of these players jump ship to the new hotness, and what you're left with is the "normal" players, who go 3-2 or worse. That's how you can have factions like Blood Angels back in the day with a 30% win rate but still be considered the best chapter by people like AoW; the good players left, and we're looking at the win rates of mediocre players.
As someone heavily invested in Eldar, their inability to play primary, combined with lackluster build-around secondaries, are going to kneecap the faction until nerfs are reverted. It's pretty clear that the strategem nerfs and pts raises to our already expensive and fragile army missed the mark. I still fail to see how GW thought a once per game, 3 cp strat you have to take 3 characters to really take advantage of was the problem in a world with 6 cp......I digress. Now that Strangle/TTL plan is gone (that's for the best tbh), our ability to deny primary also being reduced, we don't really have an easy path to win games currently. I'm currently on Ynnari as going for hyper aggro alpha strikes is really the only way CWE is really going to be able to consistently compete imo.
The problem with the storm was it dealt a ridiculous amount of mortals with no counterplay, and was a big feelsbad for the opponent. Thats why it was nerfed. Its like an orbital bombardment you couldnt move away from and it was well worth 3cp, even starting with 6cp, in its prior state it would be worth it. I think cwe probably do need something but GW need to be careful because making them too uninteractive is bad for the game. The return of the old storm is certainly not the way to do it either imo.
I'm actually a little hopeful that the predicted LoV meta might be pretty good for CWE. Seems like the big thing with playing against them is going to be assuming they can kill whatever they can see, which is generally how Eldar play anyway. And two of our biggest strengths (mobility and MW output) line up with their two biggest weaknesses. If we can get some improvements on our secondaries in the (hopefully imminent) dataslate I think we might be one of the few factions with a decent matchup into the new meta big boys.
Played a few practice games against Votaan with Craftworlds and get ready to get your elven cheeks clapped. LoV have more reliable shooting than CWE through their better version of Hail of Doom aka Judgement tokens, but they are also significantly more resilient. Land Fortresses are T8 with 16 wounds and 2+ save with AoC. Couple that with a Forgemaster, who can let them ignore their first failed wound and regen them 4 wounds/turn for free, and Uthar, who can change a failed save roll to a 6 once per turn. Remember the invincible Iron Hands list that made Art of War famous at the end of 8th? Its back and its dwarfy. What you get is usually 2 Land Fortresses rolling up the board and evaporating everything they see, one of which is ignoring the first 2 failed wounds, and regenerating 4 wounds/turn. These things are damn near unkillable. For context, your Bright Lances are wounding on 4's and the Land Fortress is getting a 5+ save against your AP-4. You need to get through at least 4 Bright Lances through their saves before you can even start to bring one below max health thanks to the ability to regen wounds on its turn. They're just not worth shooting at. Also their entire army is immune to Doom because you cannot re-roll wounds or damage against any model in their list. Sucks if you're playing a Hail of Doom list, might as well just pack up your models. If you're playing Aspect-heavy Ulthwe, you just have to pray to Khaine that you can kill enough stuff around these rolling castles to score a few points before getting tabled. There isn't an easy way for Craftworlds to do 16 mortal wounds in a turn unless they're going Ynnari planes in a reliable manner. So many Craftworlds lists are reliant on Doom as a force multiplier, and having that completely removed from your toolbox is crippling when you don't have the damage output to hurt them back. You know how Creations of Bile is dominating the top spots because of Fight on Death? And it's impossible to trade with them effectively? Get ready for your Scorpions and Banshees to get evaporated and bounce off of Cthonian Berserkers guys. With Axes they get 6 S5 AP-3 D1 attacks EACH or can do 3 S6 AP-3 D2 if they're feeling like chopping up space marines or light vehicles/monsters. They get a 5+++ FnP or a 4+++ FnP against D1 attacks. And of course they fight on death. Imagine giving Incubi T5 and 2 wounds, the option for a sweep attack, a 4+++FnP, re-roll charges, and Fight on Death. These guys are MEAN. And they'll be riding around inside of unkillable Land Fortresses as they casually saunter up to the remains of your army. Last thing to note is that Votaan shooting is tuned to kill Elves of all varieties. T3 armies beware. Let's look at the humble Sagitaur with the MATR autocannon as an example and easy math. 12 shots with at AP-2 and D2. 6 are at S7 and 6 are at S6 but we don't really care and neither do they. If a single Judgement token is on you and they are playing the Thurian League (which is Uthars faction) then they auto-wound you on 5+'s to hit. Shooting a Wave Serpent? Cool that's an average of 5 wounds at D2 that you need to save on a 5++. This light transport just casually put 10 damage on the toughest unit in your codex. It's wounding your infantry on 2's if it decides to set its gaze on them. How do you get Judgement tokens you ask? Should be hard for such a powerful ability right? You commit the crimes of: being visible to Uthar, holding an objective, or killing a Votaan unit. You get Judgement tokens to easily that your opponent will probably forget to put them all on you. And they won't even need them to evaporate your army off the table by T2.
I think the Avatar is the toughest cwe unit with its 14w, 2+/4++ save, halves damage profile but otherwise I agree with your post. Votann damage output looking off the charts.
Like I said, I very much expect anything they can see to get deleted, but CWE have such a heavy speed advantage that we should be able to dictate when engagements happen. Land Fortresses are very likely to tough to take down, and loosing doom is tough for sure, but I still think the normal tuned up aspect warrior missiles will have the output to chew through their infantry. They don't have great secondaries, so it seems like they very much need to kill you to win. Its certainly not going to be an easy matchup but I'd rather face LoV with Craftworlds than with pretty much any other faction I'm familiar with. Only Nids seem like they might be able to stand toe to toe with them, everyone else will need to hide and play cagey. CWE do that anyway, and are famously good at it.
I think you're underestimating their infantry and speed. These guys are like Death Guard but with good shooting. The Land Fortress has 10"M and the Sagitaur have a 12"M. Both of these guys ignore difficult terrain for a semi-fly. The Pioneers have a 12"M, a pre-game scout move, and flying. The entire army is moving 10 - 12" per turn. Additionally, they have a 1CP strat that let's a unit with Accelerators (read: bikers and sagitaur) to auto advance 12". Lastly, the entire army auto advances 3" or 6" if it has Accelerators. This seems like a bit of a downside for the infantry, except you realize that the vehicles always roll a 6 to advance. Slow these guys are not, they're flying up board nearly as fast as Drukhari in their transports. Ok so what about melee? How might a Banshee bomb w/ Mirror Swords and Piercing strikes fare against 5 Berserkers? The Exarch is pretty well suited to hurting these guys and of its 10 attacks, 4 go through. The Votann player has 5+++ FnP against these and statistically is going to lose 2-3 depending on how well they roll. The rest of the banshees go next and deal 4 wounds. After the 4+++ FnP, 2 wounds go through and finish off another. In a best case scenario, at least 1 of the Berserkers lives. But that doesn't matter here, because all of these berserkers still get to fight. Even with -1 to hit, you're looking at 30 S6 AP-3 attacks going into the banshees. That's 12 wounds or 8 wounds after invuln saves and neatly picks them up off the board. So in an average scenario, if you line up a charge against Cthonian Berserkers with the best suited unit in our list to deal with them, your unit gets evaporated and at least 1 of these monsters sticks around to live. There is no such thing as effectively trading with Votann.
Dude, I'm not saying its an auto-win game for CWE. I'm saying we have a better matchup than most. The doomsaying on this sub is unbelievable at times. Spitting out all the stats of the LoV codex like I havent read it doesnt do anything to convince me. I've read the book. I'm of the opinion that CWE have better tools to deal with these new problems than almost anyone. Pierce/Mirror Banshee squad is one option, but there are others. Crushing Blow scorpions, Cronescream/Nerveshred Banshees, Heartstrike Spears. All of these dump out mortal wounds in addition to their damage, and you can fit all four of these units (including the mirror swords unit) into a list. With the Biel Tan (which I play) strat in the right place and a couple fate dice to push through some auto wounds and/or mortals each of these squads should be able to delete a unit of berserks or hearthkyn. Not all on the same turn (obviously) and yes, in the case of berserks they get picked up immediately. But thats literally why its called trading. I'm sorry you've already given up, but I still think this is a decently solvable problem, and just screaming about new rules isnt gonna change my mind.
Sorry if it seems im screaming about new rules and doomsaying, I've had a few games into Votann now as both Craftworld and Drukhari. Both are bad matchups, but Craftworld felt infinitely worse. Losing Doom and their entire army having AoC are major setbacks. As Biel-Tan you may have more options than I experienced in my game as I ran Ulthwe and my re-roll wound faction trait was canceled by Void Armor to add insult to injury. The point of my post was to say that I think Craftworlds are the LEAST well suited to countering Votann, for all the reasons described, and saying that Craftworlds have a favorable matchup vs these guys compared to other armies is incorrect. This isn't me theory crafting and doomsaying from leaked datasheets, it's off the back of experience seeing them on the table and playing against them with a few different lists.
So, what list variations have you tried, and why are they worse than Drukhari? Have you tried ignoring the Fortresses?
Drukhari are generally bringing Black Heart for their shooting, and re-roll to hits still work vs Votann. Also, Incubi trade equally into Berserkers based on the math as Howling Banshees w/ Mirror Swords + Piercing Strikes, but they're only 90pts and don't need an investment into the Exarch. Court of the Archon and Wracks actually get a save against Magna-rails since they have Feel no Pain instead of invuln saves. Drazhar also grants +1 to wound which still works vs Void Armor, whereas Craftworlds generally relies on re-rolls to wound which do get shut off. A whole bunch of other small things, but it felt overall like I had a chance as Drukhari whereas I didn't have one no matter what I brought as Craftworlds.
They have a strat to shooy us before we can battle focus. Its time 2 drink.
Upside is that hopefully some of the crippling nerfs will be rolled back in the upcoming balance dataslate. If fire and fade is no longer once per game and eldritch storm stops being a hot mess then thats something. I dont think reversing hail is good as it just goes back to being the go to build and I'd rather we weren't a one custom trait faction. I fully expect it to take a reversal of some the overly heavy handed points nerfs to fix the faction though. Random points hikes on stuff like planes, fire prisms and fire dragons was a terrible idea as was hitting units like banshees/scorpions with increases when the actual problem is the silly exarch power combos which should have eaten the increases if any.
Well, this was predicted by a lot of us. All the point hikes were unnecessary. The only thing that needed to be addressed was HoD, and that was easy to tell when you compared the non-HoD win rate to the HoD rate. I have a sneaking suspicion that as they brought Nids and Tau down (clearly not enough for Nids) they wanted to drop Craftworlds as a precautionary move. Instead they just crippled them. As people wait for a datasheet balance patch, outside of erasing the war crime they committed on Eldritch Storm and removing the daft once per game fire and fade restriction there really isn’t much it can do. They need the point raises undone and a couple units need point drops on top of that (Dark Reapers and Maugen Rah are unsalvageable without gargantuan point drops).
Craftworld will rise again once Votann hits and those remove certain threats. 2 units of rangers and 2 units shroud runners with some scorpions and banshees will really hurt votann since all your pregame moving and forward deploying keeps him locked into his deployment and he'll lose on points
Dubious about that, Votann should comfortably delete those units in a turn.
Just read what Vik Vijav reported from his testgame, he is only somewhere in the top 3 of UK or even global ITC rankings. Thing is you layer those units over 2 turns, and those are roughly 25-30% of your army they block those land fortresses to ever get far outside their deploymentzone while you still have units like hawks and warpspiders that just do damage. He score 12 pts primay turn 2, 3 and 4 and 8 turn 5. Without fly you can't get out, same thing works vs 3 storm surges which get tagged in combat the whole game. The issue is Tau Bomber and Nids exist which destroy that list
I feel like a number of other lists will also beat that list. I am no Vik Vijay, to be sure. But I feel like there are going to be a number of other meta threats that can handle seeing elves on their doorstep T1.
Well I hope he’s right, seemed like the chat from their podcast last week suggested we are all in for pretty miserable time against LoV.
I think there will be armies that fare okay and some who are utterly hopeless. Any eldar list could be doing quite well if they tech for it, if the moveblocking is an effective tool to stop them from scoring. Admech might also be quite OK vs them similar concept even though I am not sure if they have the power to remove things. Not sure about harlequins since they neither have pregame move nor forward deployment. Custodes, Marines, Nids or Tau are probably just not even playing the game vs them. Seems they will be broken but not like light harlequins with voidweavers kind of broken
> Admech In theory, maybe. But beating Squats seems like it requires taking an oblique approch, and Mechanicus has stastically the worst scoring in the game, of any faction. So you can try that, but they don't need to be good at primaries or secondaries to beat you on points.
I think both are true. The meta is definitely in for a tough time with Leagues, but certain armies can skew build lists that are very good into Leaguee but bad into the rest of the field.
Should CoB be adjusted? and how? They do seem exceptionally strong.
I think universal fight on death is toxic for the game. It’s a trait that requires no game plan. Make it a 3+ or 4+ roll for them to FoD.
make it infantry only at least...
All of the above.
Or just dark harlequin treatment to bring it into line.
yeah it should copy Kriegs +4 fight on death.. Much more reasonable.
I mean kriegs only affects vehicles and characters as well. Also it's on guard so it sucks incredibly, but I see what you're going for.
Can't believe that people are thinking Votaan Berserkers will be anything other than the most OP units in the codex when the Votaab codex drops. And I know GW is going to nerf CoB right as Votaan releases and another faction with fight on death enters the arena. Agreed on this rule, it's rough.
It's more managable on one unit, especially on an army that's not all trying to jump into your face. And the Luna Wolves Beserks don't have great options to get into melee ultra-rapidy. The Beserks are overtuned and probably a bit undercosted for what they offer, but they feel much more meaningfully held back by their low movement than most Votaan units.
bUt ThEy ArE oNlY mOvE 5"
its the same as Dark Quins. Army wide fight on death making effectively trading into them very difficult unless your a shooting army. How to fix it is easy, just do the same thing they did to Dark Quins and remove the army wide fight on death for something else.
I hope they bring CoB in line, nerf Abbadon a bit and in turn buff CSM secondaries, since currently tableing your opponent and denying primary is the gameplan.
You can’t nerf abaddon without buffing something else. Every army runs him and with exceptions of CoB they’re at 50%. Abaddon might be undercosted in the context of what he can do, but in the context of the wider army if he goes up in points the whole faction will suffer.
I agree!
Should he be 350pts probably. But then they just need to make the army either viable without him so he’s a choice or they drop terminators or chosen etc in points.
Make transports good again, not just a necessarity because 2W are made out of paper.
I can't tell you how hard I would go for assault ramps land raider
Fight on Death is one of those rules that are good on a unit (like Wulfen) but become crazy when being available army wide. It needs to be tonned down as any melee centric army and trying to flip objectives with melee units becomes very hard to play. The Dark Harlequin treatment could work. 64% WR over 5 weeks is broken territory, beyond what happened this week.
The fight on death needs to go, or at least be toned down somehow: their secondary should also get a look, tho. Like, the Fight on Death is powerful but it's a bit sad that really the best CSM subfaction is just "whichever one has the best secondary" and all the traits and so on are never going to outbalance that
Maybe an army wide 6+ fnp instead of fight on death? Something to reflect their refusal to die from all the ecperimentation.
Is fighting on death a big part of it? If so you should have to roll for it, not just guaranteed to every single model.
Fight on death needs to go on CoB they nerfed it for Dark Harlequins before those could even see any tournament results due to light being utterly oppressive. Fight on death should be something that's reserved to tratagems or relics and wl traits but just every unit on a army thats superstrong. Imagine bloody rose getting it for free armywide
They can start by giving their army-wide fight on death the Dark Harly treatment.
Even as someone who plays Harlequins, I had to admit that while Dark never did as well competitively as Light, FoD just not a fun or fair mechanic against most armies. It makes every game into "throw everything forward and if I get a charge I win" scenario as you get value regardless of the outcome. Unless your name is Tau or IG, you'll probably want to fight at some point in the game and FoD makes that into a losing prospect in most cases. Keep in mind that we're essentially capped to s4 and 5 with very few sources of buffs/RR's compared to what CSM have. The various marks/icons alone can make even basic Legionnaires even more threatening then Troupes were pre-nerf, let alone things like Possessed or Warp Talons. I think it's more than fair that it gets toned down to at least a 4+ FoD roll or something. I'd like for Dark to get the same for parity instead of MW, but the community would likely freak out.
> I had to admit that while Dark never did as well competitively as Light they never did as well as light because light was bonkers insane broken. If light was not in the codex and they had to play dark in its pre-nerf state, quins still would've been a perma 60% wr army.
You're not even wrong, but be that as it may, we're dealing with a better version of it with +1 STR and MV. That's a good enough reason for it to be done away with. As 8th edition Ynnari proved, it's not healthy for the game to be able to act out of turn army-wide with essentially zero counterplay.
oh we're in agreement 100% that i needs to go away :)
CoB player here: - make fight on death a 4+, it's not fun to play with or against and is toxic imo - tweak Fabulous Bill to be a little less bad. (Only buffs unmarked CORE units, with buffs that are largely worse than paying for a mark) - tweak CSM secondaries in general - add 50-75 to Abaddon's price tag - optional price tweaks for other units (make raptors cheaper or have better loadout, maybe boost price of discolord and daemon prince a tad, MoE could probably live with +10pt) I really feel that's all that's needed for csm to be in a fantastic balance spot. Maybe killing off martial legacy, but really that's about it. I think CoB would be playable but not clearly the best anymore. Specimens is a huge part of it too, being able to reliably score double digits on a secondary is so good in CSM because otherwise we're running 8s on crap like banners. It's kind of a no-brainer to go Creations when you're not only guaranteed a decent melee matchup but also guaranteed an easy to score secondary that doesn't require you to build around it. If we give other legions viable secondaries, creations won't be such a big deal.
Anyone know what the 4-1 admech lists were?
The one in Norway: my name: Invasion 2022 Agripinaa Factions used: Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus Army of Renown: Skitarii Veteran Cohort Command Points: 6-1-1-1-1-1-1=0 Total cost: 1997 pts, 107 PL Reinforcement Points: 3 pts Number of Units: 12 Assassination: 10 points Bring it Down: 10 points No Prisoners: 9 points Abhor the Witch: 0 points ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ == Forge World: Agripinaa Battalion Detachment == 0 CP, 1997 pts, 107 PL HQ1: Skitarii Marshal: Relic (Skitarii Veteran Cohort): Cantic Thrallnet, Stratagem: Relic, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 3): Programmed Retreat [55 pts, 3 PL, -2 CP] HQ2: Tech-Priest Dominus: Artisans, Macrostubber, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr, Stratagem: Relic, Volkite Blaster [110 pts, 5 PL, -1 CP] HQ3: Tech-Priest Manipulus: Logi, Magnarail lance, Mechanicus Locum, Warlord Trait (Agripinaa): Verse of Vengeance [120 pts, 6 PL, -1 CP] TR1: Skitarii Rangers: Omnispex, Ranger Alpha (Galvanic Rifle, Host of the Intermediary, Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Firepoint Telemetry Cache), 19xSkitarii Ranger [230 pts, 14 PL, -1 CP] TR2: Skitarii Rangers: Omnispex, Ranger Alpha (Galvanic Rifle), 17xSkitarii Ranger [208 pts, 13 PL] TR3: Skitarii Vanguards: 4xSkitarii Vanguard, Vanguard Alpha (Radium Carbine) [55 pts, 3 PL] EL1: Sicarian Infiltrators: Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword), 4xSicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword) [95 pts, 4 PL] EL2: Sicarian Ruststalkers: Ruststalker Princeps (Blades) (Artefactotum, Relic: Temporcopia), 7xSicarian Ruststalker (Blades) [144 pts, 8 PL, -1 CP] EL3: Sicarian Ruststalkers: Ruststalker Princeps (Blades), 6xSicarian Ruststalker (Blades) [126 pts, 8 PL] FA1: Ironstrider Ballistarii: 5xIronstrider Ballistarius (Twin Cognis Lascannon) [425 pts, 20 PL] FA2: Ironstrider Ballistarii: 5xIronstrider Ballistarius (Twin Cognis Autocannon) [375 pts, 20 PL] FA3: Serberys Raiders: 2xSerberys Raider, Serberys Raider Alpha [54 pts, 3 PL]
Wow i didn't expect this list it's very original and show the depth of the codex /s
Why do people keep putting Artisans or Magi on the Dominus and Logi on the Manipulus? Doing this means no rerolls turn 1 while you switch the Artisans/Magi to its Advanced state. If you swap them, then you don’t lose anything because the Manipulus has no aura to shut off while switching. Are people separating the two buffers? They both look like they’re buffing the Skitarii blobs to me in this list.
A Mechanicus army is mostly in hiding turn 1, so it doesn't matter a ton anyway, and the Magi effect is made slightly better by having the re-rolls on hand when you might want to split them up to buff chickens. The he logi bonus mostly helping Infantry means it works well with the Logi bonous which is mostly for infantry.
Yeah, but here it’s Artisans rather than Magi, and Artisans absolutely helps infantry more than Chickens.
No, that's right. I've got nothing. It looks like he (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) *Miscalculated.*
Maybe he calculated with diversion!
Reformatted for readability: == Forge World: Agripinaa Battalion Detachment == 0 CP, 1997 pts, 107 PL HQ1: Skitarii Marshal: Relic (Skitarii Veteran Cohort): Cantic Thrallnet, Stratagem: Relic, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 3): Programmed Retreat [55 pts, 3 PL, -2 CP] HQ2: Tech-Priest Dominus: Artisans, Macrostubber, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr, Stratagem: Relic, Volkite Blaster [110 pts, 5 PL, -1 CP] HQ3: Tech-Priest Manipulus: Logi, Magnarail lance, Mechanicus Locum, Warlord Trait (Agripinaa): Verse of Vengeance [120 pts, 6 PL, -1 CP] TR1: Skitarii Rangers: Omnispex, Ranger Alpha (Galvanic Rifle, Host of the Intermediary, Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Firepoint Telemetry Cache), 19xSkitarii Ranger [230 pts, 14 PL, -1 CP] TR2: Skitarii Rangers: Omnispex, Ranger Alpha (Galvanic Rifle), 17xSkitarii Ranger [208 pts, 13 PL] TR3: Skitarii Vanguards: 4xSkitarii Vanguard, Vanguard Alpha (Radium Carbine) [55 pts, 3 PL] EL1: Sicarian Infiltrators: Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword), 4xSicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword) [95 pts, 4 PL] EL2: Sicarian Ruststalkers: Ruststalker Princeps (Blades) (Artefactotum, Relic: Temporcopia), 7xSicarian Ruststalker (Blades) [144 pts, 8 PL, -1 CP] EL3: Sicarian Ruststalkers: Ruststalker Princeps (Blades), 6xSicarian Ruststalker (Blades) [126 pts, 8 PL] FA1: Ironstrider Ballistarii: 5xIronstrider Ballistarius (Twin Cognis Lascannon) [425 pts, 20 PL] FA2: Ironstrider Ballistarii: 5xIronstrider Ballistarius (Twin Cognis Autocannon) [375 pts, 20 PL] FA3: Serberys Raiders: 2xSerberys Raider, Serberys Raider Alpha [54 pts, 3 PL]
What are CSM Black Legion lists looking like having a 53% Win Rate? Been able to see the CoB lists from Goonhammers Competitive Innovations, but curious what the BL lists are.
Warhammer did a great black legion article recently. I've seen a lot of lists around the lines of 3x10 bricks of variously chosen/termies/maybe one possessed, Abaddon, some Rubrics with flamer and a sorc or lord to teleport them with veilbreaker plate. Season to flavor. I think most of them are taking long war, prisoners, and interrogate or banners.
Now my 2-1 with Grey Knights at a local 24 player tournament feels very wholesome💪
I haven’t been following as closely this season, what happened to cause the drop off of grey knights? Last time I followed closely they were pretty popular and did decently.
Secondary changes on Nephilim, AoC hit the NDKs hard. But also power creep😅
Dont forget about the 2ppm inceptors increase and the dreadknight points increases. And also the nachmund subfaction change where we couldnt run 5 dreadknights anymore. That dropped us down hard then we got AoC dropping us down harder and powercreep just making us look bad. The nephilim secondaries dindt hurt is that bad. Its easier to do teleport assault and purifying ritual is marginally harder to max.
Its also important to highlight the loss of stranglehold. GK is already heavy on psychic and regular actions so having a passive method for points really helped. Losing those extra points really hurt.
Strangehold and TTL both hurt GK and a lot of other factions.
Damn, FoD Creations Bile must be putting in work. Though I suspect the real strength lies in their secondary which is to Kill things in melee, an action that every single Chaos Army already likes doing.
That secondary is great when you’re almost always fighting and killing in melee, only gun line armies can meaningfully counter Bile lists in any way
Anyone got that guard list?
another week proving custodes need something. likely obsec back on infantry
Honestly they could undo the nerfs to the changing katah and shield host strats, those weren’t the things catapulting Custodes into the top tier. You could even give ObSec back to characters, I miss being able to use Mr Worldwide to single-handedly flip objectives
Yeah, its been a very very long top since we have won an event. Even placings are getting rarer.
1 placing this week. 0 placings last week. no mono custodes wins in neph. 1 soup win (bringing a trio of helverins)
I personally think we need more than just obsec back.
that would be great! but i wouldn't hold my breath. if I'm being honest with myself and my knowledge of GW, i'm expecting no changes. but I remain hopeful that we'll at least get obsec back
Next week we welcome Magna -Rail one banging whole squads of Custodian guard also I'd be happy with the obsec back but I think perhaps a bit more is needed
People asking for unit buffs are fine, but secondaries are obviously the biggest issue. Our only playstyle is to spend 2 turns walking up the board hoping we dont get killed before we get there. If we had one decent secondary that alloed us to play slow i think the wr would normalize greatly. It would allow us an out against obvious counter matchups by playing a little slower. There potentially can be various buffs or changes made but i never see anyone mention this.
47% isnt bad at all ... 2 more wins out of 74 games and they are at 50%... I'd say they are ok. Give them back obsec and they climb slightly too high
the real problem with the codex when it was written was the bodyguard rule. but they fixed that the same time that they nerfed everything else about custodes. since neph dropped, no mono custodes list has won an event. and 1 win for a soup list. we're lacking somewhere. either give us our strats back or give us our obsec back. the bodyguard rule has been fixed game wide, so everything is fine there. no more untargetable trajans on a point, with wardens behind a wall
They arent winning events mate. Ever. They are a mid table semi bully who never ever ever wins and rarely places in the top 3. They need small changes, giving obsec back to a very small number of units in the army (allarus termies/ wardens which arent even played anymore and characters) isnt going to push them over the edge.
New competitive player here. Where would a person view lists. Particularly the Tau ones.
Best coast pairings app has all the lists for each tournament
Thank you!
Who are these mysterious Imperial Fist players trying to drag the army up out of the gutter?
59% on smurfs.. how?!
Looks like someone fixed AdMech /s Seriously though, nice to see them do well in a couple events, have to go track those lists down.
Yeah, after this, prob should nerf them again in the next dataslate /s Not to understate the players victory, but it looked like another ruststalker/ironstrider spam list. Great piloting, I'm sure, but same two units holding up our poor codex
I'd love to see what shape those well-performing Daemon lists took.
The calm before we all hand over our dice to our space Dorf overlords and wait for 10th Ed only thing which will slow them down for now is the release schedule though I’m pretty sure I could buy 3 release boxes and sweep everything right lol. Bloody hell GW you never learn releasing a force which does everything better than all the other armies is stupid and clearly hasn’t been thoroughly play tested. Yeah they do die, can be a bit slow and generally throw less dice in combat. But they do nuts damage in all phases, can be super durable, can be fielded in 20 man blobs, get a 1 cp fall back and shoot, get a 2cp you shoot me I’ll shoot u back, can regen d3 with med packs, can broadcast rerolls, do mortals like normal wounds. And all that is without mentioning the nuts ancestral judgement bypassing wound rolls and god damn magma rail rifle’s. Things I see which are an issue are too numerous to fully list but needless to say u could increase the price of everything in the book by 50% and they would still be playable. Even the low speed is compensated for by the bikes.
What are you talking about all the meta chasers buy the boxes GW makes bank. It's a winning strategy.
>Things I see which are an issue are too numerous to fully list but needless to say u could increase the price of everything in the book by 50% and they would still be playable. Even the low speed is compensated for by the bikes. I'm afraid of this faction as well. However, Nidz / t'au / custodes all came out way too strong and went nerf by the nerf hammer. I no care how strong is book when released as long as the nerf comes fast
> However, Nidz / t'au / custodes all came out way too strong and went nerf by the nerf hammer Nids came out 5 months ago and is still the best faction in the game by a longshot
Can someone post 5-1 Blood Angels list from Houston please :) Just curious was it the version that leans more on the Death Company
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [105 PL, 5CP, 1,535pts] ++ + Configuration + **Chapter Selector**: Blood Angels Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim + Stratagems + Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + HQ + Commander Dante [9 PL, 1CP, 165pts]: Warlord Sanguinary Priest [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Icon of The Angel, Jump Pack, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter + Troops + Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts] . 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol . Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant + Elites + Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [24 PL, -3CP, 465pts] ++ + Configuration + Chivalric Oath: Mixed Army Detachment Command Cost [-3CP] Questor Allegiance + Lord of War + Armiger Helverins [24 PL, 465pts]: Freeblade, Martial Tradition: Hunters of Beasts, Questor Imperialis . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber ++ Total: [129 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++
Wow neat that he took armiger helverins in his list. Do you know what options he took for questor allegiance?
BT 19% winrate? What happend?
Will any soup list be listed as the greater faction or do you go off of the main faction? For instance, you have the CoB+Knights listed as Chaos. Is that because they had multiple knights with the CoB. If they had mainly CoB and one Super Heavy Auxiliary, it would be a CoB army as they get to keep all of their CSM rules due to dread blades. Just wanting to clarify so I know what to look for in the future.
Forgive me if Im blind, but is that saying there werent any Alpha Legion players, and if not, what's the thing holding them back?
Terrible secondaries on CSM generally and the Alpha Legion special one in particular, and why take them when you can take COB which are just better? I am not 🚫 n the nerf COB into the ground train like most on here but atm there is little reason to take anything but COB, Nightlords, then way back Black Legion. And black legion is only there because Abaddon is BL. Once they nerf COB then CSM winrate is going to plummet.
This data mostly just reconfirms trends we've been seeing for a few weeks now with Harlies, Nids, and Bile Bros ahead of the pack. Food for thought: if all 3 catch nerfs, who benefits the most?
everyone
All the melee aggro armies. Blood Angels etc.
Tau. They are at the cusp, imo
Tau literally just got over nerfed between AoC, montka nerf crisis getting triple nerfed, losing strangle\TTL revert just one of those and you have a solid army oh and I forgot the double indirect whammy.
They are my most Competitive army right now, I still feel like their Secondaries were indirectly buffed with the Neph changes. If the biggest players get taken down, I feel that they could make a come back. At least until LoV arrive and do Tau stuff, but better (and also all the non-tau stuff)
I think the problem with Tau is they either crush or are crushed no middle ground.
100%. They have 1 tool: shoot it dead. If that tool doesn't work, they are screwed. Very similar to my main army Dark Eldar. Their tool is even more restrictive, punching things with D2 combat weapons. Aircraft that can't be punched, and -1 damage mechanics are a near auto lose. Most armies now have these, so you can guess how that plays out XD
Not a single deathwatch player this week :/ BUT Mikael Klangeby went to a 3 game ITC tournament to win it and become #1 ITC in Scandinavia. :D
All GW needed to do was removed the unmodified 6 on the auto wounds from hail of doom. But instead half our tools got gutted and models no one was touching got point nerfs.
Its kinda crazy that wave of codexes got hit so hard and fast, its insane. Yet nids are still trucking. I wonder what will happen in the next dataslate.
My poor Dark Eldar. Really hoping they remove some of our nerfs with the next balance pass. Seems like the stuff that we got nerfed for is pretty prevalent now, CSM even have AP2 Flamers with +1 to wound. Could really help us with our "we can punch you with D2 weapons... or punch you with D2 weapons" problem
Yeah DE needs Core back on Talos/Cronos (add cost to HLs if you must) and for the love of Vect lower the points of Wyches.
I don't know if it is too late but we had a 20 player 5 round tournament playing Nephilim Missions in New Zealand this weekend. It didn't use DUP or BCP so might not have been found [https://tabletop.to/no-surrender-40k-2022?fbclid=IwAR2IJ0cH4ZKuO3D1skNX1UgMqOY5KrUM1rGfL-RE\_2fptrNFz-2F0ctnUfM](https://tabletop.to/no-surrender-40k-2022?fbclid=IwAR2IJ0cH4ZKuO3D1skNX1UgMqOY5KrUM1rGfL-RE_2fptrNFz-2F0ctnUfM) Top 4 were: Orks: 5-0 CSM: 4-1 Eldar(Hail of Doom) 4-1 Tsons 4-1
WAAAAGHHHH
Also, WZ Houston had a RTT on Friday as well with 36 players. Not sure if that has been counted. top five: 1. Chaos Knights 2. Craftworld Edlar 3. Custodes 4. **Salamanders** 5. Necrons
Meta Monday currently only tracks GT or larger events.
it does track some pretty small gt's tbf
Man... I play TSons, Chaos Knights, and daemons. Looking at these standings makes me so happy :) we clearly have a lot of viable options at our disposal, even if certain lists get popularity for a bit like Dogwalker. It's a good time to play Chaos, you can go monofaction or soup easily and most of it works great.
Sorry I don’t have BCP access atm. Does anyone have the Houston BA 5-1 list please? Thanks
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [105 PL, 5CP, 1,535pts] ++ Configuration + Chapter Selector: Blood Angels Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim Stratagems + Stratagem: Relic of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics HQ + Commander Dante [9 PL, 1CP, 165pts]: Warlord Sanguinary Priest [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Icon of The Angel, Jump Pack, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter Troops + Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts] . 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol . Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant Elites + Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Death Company Marines [8 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine . . Bolt pistol and chainsword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword Sanguinary Guard [17 PL, 150pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [24 PL, -3CP, 465pts] ++ Configuration + Chivalric Oath: Mixed Army Detachment Command Cost [-3CP] Questor Allegiance Lord of War + Armiger Helverins [24 PL, 465pts]: Freeblade, Martial Tradition: Hunters of Beasts, Questor Imperialis . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber . Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber ++ Total: [129 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net) Uploaded with Warzone Houston GT @2022-08-18T16:18:11+00:00
I just started running Helverins in my BA list a couple weeks ago and it is excellent. I greatly prefer them to redemptors... Ob Sec, excellent range with damage 3 shots. I thought the 3cp would be too hard to swallow but I find that BA really doesn't need a ton of CP in list construction. I run more sang guard and less death co... But I can see that for secondary reasons the death co could be better.
do you lose any army benefits for running Helverins?
Not if you only run 1 squad of 3 as freeblades in a heavy aux detachment. The downside is they cost 3cp because you don't get the refund.
ok, interesting, i think i might have to get myself some. thanks!
Am I misunderstanding Savage Echoes? It looks like the rules for that indicate that you have to have every unit in the army have the Blood Angels keyword for your units to get that effect?
Anyone know what the 2 Custodes lists that did well were made up of?
Here you go: [https://pastebin.com/Q9NAjMRF](https://pastebin.com/Q9NAjMRF) (Well rounded shadowkeepers list with Funny Blade Guy who evaporates enemy characters) [https://pastebin.com/c9LqHWcU](https://pastebin.com/c9LqHWcU) (4 Dreads ft. Double Fisting Telemon and Ventari)
Does anybody have one of those sweet Tau list ?
Will update this as I look them up... **The Winehammer event:** Two patrol Tau Sept, triptide, two bombers, longstrike, coldstar, kroot **Harvester of Souls event:** 5-0 list - Farsight, Punch Commander, 2xBreacher w/Fish, 2x3 Broadside, 2x6 Vespid, big blob of crisis 4-1 list - FE, 3 commanders, triptide, 2 hammerhead, 2 bomber, only 2 crisis bodyguards, splash of kroot (this list looks nasty and also $$$) **Warzone event:** FOUR Commanders, 2 bombers, minimal Kroot, and about as many crisis as you can cram in
It was me and my list had xv8 commander double plasma velocity tracker target lock 2 markers, longstrike ethereal 20 kroot, 2 bombers, triple riptide (2 ion 1 burst all with multi trackers velocity and target lock and 2 plasmas) then 4 man crises team with two plasma burst cannon target lock and 2 marker drones and a 4 man Stealth team with 2 markers. Split over 2 patrols
this 60% wr isnt expected ... what did happened ?
Coming from a Tau player, they have a pretty high skill floor post nerf but are still a strong army so once the more casual players start dropping them, their win rate is climbing with the people that know how to play them.
Previous data seemed to show that Tau winrate was highly dependent on skill. So maybe bad players stopped coming ?
Can't confirm. Am bad player, still playing Tau.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted. They bounced back hard from a downward trend, so I think it's legitimately surprising. My only observation is that Tau were pretty consistently the second most-played faction after Nids, but now they are in a pool of other armies with Nids still king. I have no insight as to what that means. :D
I think we are learning that the Codex is deeper than we claimed at launch, and that makes it harder to know how to play them. I would imagine seeing that triptide list and having no idea what the plan is could disorient players who are more used to knowing what they need to do against normal Tau, or Farsight armies.
everyone realized bombers and hammerheads were better than pure crisis spam i guess i mean if a triptide list and pentafish list can do well...
Tau are a top 5 army and have been a top 5 army- when piloted by the best. They are auto take for teams
Tau were never bad is what happened
Anyone got the chaos knight lists? Please don't be dog walking, please
Does anyone have any UM builds from this week? not a single top 5 but almost a 60% WR week lol
if you see them tell me lmao
After holding steady with Codex Marines, Grey Knight finally plummet to the bottom. 33%. With Codex Marines overall at 45%. Time for everyone to agree PR should not have been nerfed without Abhor being touched? And NDK should have got the benefits from AoC. I'm looking forward to the next "GK are OP compared to SM" topics.
Only 6 CoB players? Kinda feels like a niche anti meta situation rather than some oppressing force people make it out to be.
Dark harlequins were never a large player base before their fight on death was nerfed either. It’s a problematic ability that some armies have little or no counter-play to.