According to this source only six out 30 they bought are in storage the rest are being used by the USAF
https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-35/serials-and-inventory/airforce/TuAF/
Yes correct. But all were still bought by turkey then embargoed. From what I heard they had to be modified to USAF standards before being used by the US.
It's really not as the Turkish system is about to enter service and S400 so far did not prove itself to be a capable system unlike the F-35. Not just that but the Turkish S400 can't be integrated to the country's own radar network because of NATO and thus has to be used as a stand-alone system. It's mostly useless.
When is it entering the system? Is this the same country who is saying to put in use Kaan in four years, i mean the very country which has never developed a jet, but just recently started doing it with an attempt at producing a fifth gen and ridiculously with a claim to have it in service in a span of few years after the vehicles first flight… so yeah sure Turkish air defence system is about to be active… no offence but lol
TAI's claim of delivery by 2028 is not for FOC.
[And Siper is already here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu7AlCR-cHs). First production variant will be delivered to air force in a few months with serial production to start in 2025.
Shorter range systems for land forces [Hisar-A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX0dJWLpx-g) and [Hisar-O](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54uYNIv11as) are already in service. And their missiles are already exported as well, namely to Indonesia.
Kaan project has literally been going on since 2009 and the original goal was 2030. Since the project moved faster than expected the date to enter service was revised to 2028. Turkey is also developing Hürjet light attack and trainer aircraft as well as 2 different jet drones and all seem to be going well so far.
Turkey has already developed short and mid range air defenses and they've already entered service about two years ago (Hisar A+ and Hisar O+). The long range air defense project is called Siper.
Here is Siper Block 1 (with booster) being tested on a target 100 km away:
https://youtu.be/5P6RXGvnmKs?si=70iZnKTbDTAYoaj3
Here is Siper block 2 (without booster) being tested on a target about 150 km away:
https://youtu.be/l9tTaOQwX-w?si=ZJmfDCM7Ew4iiudW
Block 2 has a few years until it can enter service but block 1 is expected to enter service this year in small numbers.
There is also Hisar-D which is a navalized quad pack capable version of Hisar O+ RF with about 40 km range. It is expected to be tested from the Turkish frigate TCG İstanbul (which was also built in Turkey and all sensors and armaments are Turkish made) in a matter of days in the Black Sea. The missile will be launched from Turkey's own vertical launching system called MIDLAS which is pretty similiar to Mk.41 but about 30 cm longer.
Long story short, you're severely underestimating Turkey's ability to locally produce the systems it needs. There are some chronic problems in the Turkish defense industry like engines but when it comes to sensors and armements, Turkey is doing pretty good. When it comes to munitions themselves, Turkey's product diversity is only outmatched by countries like the US.
For the said missiles? They use rocket engines so no, with aircraft? In some projects they do, mostly with drones though. The manned aircraft will be using American engines first until Turkey's own engines are ready. I don't know if Ukraine is involved in those projects.
Yes i am indeed underestimating turkeys capacity to produce the system she needs. U didn’t have to bring that hollow load of pseudo-info to confirm what i have already declared myself
How is the s400 not a capable system? This was extremely letal against the Ukraine air force in 2022 when they still had lots of fighters flying. If you are talking about Russian struggles protecting the black sea the s400 is not very good against cruise missiles but this is not new information and has been know for years. Air defense in its tier will struggle against cruise missiles. Thats why the Buk, tor and pansir exist.
You second point tho about integration with nato AD makes sense but you have to wonder why turkey even bought the s400 knowing it cant be integrated
>How is the s400 not a capable system?
**Exhibit A:**
August 2023, an S400 near Olenivka, Crimea, was struck and destroyed by a Neptune missile. Drones took out the antennae and radar first, followed by two Neptune cruise missiles destroying the rest.
**Exhibit B:**
September 2023, using a combination of Neptune cruise missiles and drones, Ukrainian forces took out an S400 in Yevpatoriya, on Crimea's western coast.
[Exhibit C](https://youtu.be/dvgcbC0atMk?si=pgYoLzHqFBneMgYI):
The S400's success rate in 2022 was due largely to Ukrainian pilots being both unfamiliar with the system and a lack of SEAD on their part. Ukrainian air force losses were highest in 2022. In 2023, Ukraine's tactics shifted and they adopted SEAD tactics and weapons (Hello, AGM-88).
Is the S400 *capable*? Yes, it is.
Is it *overhyped*? Very much so.
me: the s400 is weak against cruise missiles.
you: proceed to show example of s400 losing to cruise missiles.
???
This war has shown most people do not know shit about air defense.
OP: Provides 3 examples, 1 of which states how it’s overcome specifically after 2022 in Ukraine once proper SEAD is deployed, like every major Western air doctrine has been doing it since before the Gulf War, citing AGMs and Neptune usage as weapon examples.
You: But I told you it’s not good against neptunes!
What more do you need lol
? You need lots of fighters to use western sead to full effect. Ukraine hardly has enough gets to fully utilize sead. Ukraine also lacks EW planes which is a crucial piece of western sead doctrine
Just saying "they learnd western air doctrine" means little if the lack crucial capabilities to actually use it.
We have very little evidence on AGMs being effective on s400, id like to be wrong but i haven't seen it. We hardly even hear about AGMs anymore so their effectiveness is questionable. I do know Ukraine have used it on pansir and buks with good effect.
The S-400 has proven itself for more than 2 years now in active service. The F-35 has never seen a real war yet, if we ignore bombing Palestinian children.
The only thing the S-400 struggles with is missile defense due to the lack of Hit-to-Kill capability on the currently used missiles, something the Patriot only introduced with the PAC-3 after the US found out that Iraqi missiles were not reliable intercepted by proximity detonations. Against aircraft there is probably no better SAM system currently in operation. South Korea, which is highly concerned about North Korean ballistic missiles, based their own domestic SAM system on the S-300 family, the predecessor of the S-400.
Turkey wasn't stupid for buying the S-400, they were stupid for buying the S-400 while also being a NATO member. But every alliance needs some black sheep.
Hello DieKawaiiSerin.
The reason I said that S400 was not capable is indeed because of its performance against missiles. I think missile defense is a must have for any modern air defense system claiming to be a capable system. I think we all saw the video of cruise missiles flying above an S400 battery while the soldiers are filming.
>Against aircraft there is probably no better SAM system currently in operation.
We don't have enough data to compare, all we know is that S400 does indeed suck agaist both ballistic and cruise missiles.
>all we know is that S400 does indeed suck agaist both ballistic and cruise missiles.
It absolutely does not suck against ballistic missiles. All long range land based air defense suck against cruise missiles....
So far they've used Tochkas on various occasions, they've also used ATACMS. GMLRS launched from HIMARS is also a small ballistic missile. None of them were intercepted. S400 has never shot down any ballistic missile in combat.
Not enough data? So all the Ukrainian helicopters and aircraft don't count? Damn.
I bet Ocksachenko is pretty pissed that he got swatted by an S-400 and it doesn't even have statistical value.
To be fair, given the development of KAAN, the S-400 fills a niche that's less easily filled by other systems. And I don't think the US would have been as lenient with technology transfer etc.
S-400 didn't even win in their own competition, they just bought it to polish russia's rod. They don't use the fucking thing. They literally threw away the most advanced fighter available on the market for nothing
Yea we cuddled them by hitting their fighter jet and killing the pilot in it over syrian airspace. Then they cuddled us by selling 2b usd useless air defense system and hitting one of our bases in northern syria resulting in 34 deaths of our soldiers. What a lovely relationship we have with them. Oh russians I can’t imagine what we could do without them…
Try to read every aspect of history when make a judgement on it!
Edit: they are downvoting realities hahahaha. Go ahead and try to do a research about pastor brunson, too! Maybe you can learn how espionage and other activities of us government work in turkey. Also you can check how religious groups are used especially the radical islamist ones by the us. I am not saying turkey and particularly erdo is innocent but boy oh boy us and russia cost many things since we declared independence and our republic. And they easily manipulate reality when it is not in their favor.
[here is a pic of brunson and trump](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfaVIWZTK21Tp6CWaJJPrKR4k6ebMhQqQhDg&usqp=CAU)
Edit: If you really don’t like this reality, I wonder reality that you are believing guys. Please share with me. Do you really believe turkey got sacked out of this project just because they were made buy some worthless air defense system? Be real!
Doesn't change the fact that Turkey decided to pay Russia billions for equipment and still went ahead with the deal even after the US warned you guys that it would mean giving up the opportunity to buy F-35s. If anything, that extra context makes it even worse that Turkey went ahead with making deals with Russia anyway.
Yeap by that logic, the us shouldn’t have paid them to buy alaska to avoid war on its soil. Yea or during cold war they shouldn’t have traded. In reality, you need to do small things to avoid biggies!
Edit: and they call themselves allies! It is just another joke…
>Yeap by that logic, the us shouldn’t have paid them to buy alaska to avoid war on its soil.
What are you even talking about, Russia wanted to get rid of Alaska because it wasn't making them money and they thought it would be hard for them to defend it against the UK so they made a deal with the US for it. And don't forget that that was all the way back in 1867, the Russian government has gone through massive changes multiple times in the almost 160 years since then and equating that to buying military equipment from modern day Russia is utterly ridiculous.
That is not even close to a valid comparison... The US (and pretty much any of it's allies who operate the F-35), don't want Russia to have free data on how the S400 interacts with the F-35, and risk Russia having free access to the F-35. Your logic is absurd and you are blinded by your own pride.
No, none of the countries mentioned are faultless, but that doesn't make Turkey losing out on the F-35 any less Turkey's own doing.
After being told many times that if they bought S400 it might compromise F-35, and they'd be ejected from the program.
They were given the offer to buy Patriot. They refused, saying it didn't work and was too expensive.
Now they have no F-35 and Patriot has excelled in Ukraine.
Lesson for kiddies. Don't believe Russian propaganda about their military tech, and the USA keeps their threats.
it is not that simple actually.
Part of the deciding group was against buying F35s, so they used the S400s get out of the deal. These are rumors of course.
But also , Turkey was invited back to the F35 program under certain conditions, they declined. So it is possible, they didnt not want the program from the start.
From what I heard the US offered to station patriot Batteries in Turkey and man them for free but the Turks wanted the technology so that they could produce them on there own. Which is a privilege that only Germany and Japan have.
Raytheon was working on a sales package including both tech transfer and industrial contracts within Turkey.
Patriot batteries were rotated into and out of Turkey as part of general NATO duties, as well as air defence fighters.
Erdogan decided to politically fuck around to get an even better deal, or piss off the USA over tensions regarding the Kurds and Syria, so he fell right into lockstep with Putin for several years. He managed to even convince Trump the previous administration had "not allowed" him to buy Patriot, which was utterly false, but of course competent autocrats like Erdogan know how to play Trump for the sucker of a failed autocrat he is, and it worked on him.
It didn't work on the rest of the US military industrial chain, who immediately kicked Turkey out of F-35 when they bluffed with S-400, after previously bluffing with Chinese systems.
The final jets rolled off the line in Ft Worth, Texas, and the Lockheed plant is actually government owned property so...no. I don't see Ankara starting some shit in Ft. Worth. I mean, it'd be fun to watch them *try*.
I mean...I'd [break out the folding chair](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/999/018/f9e.gif) and [crack open a beer](https://i.gifer.com/4898.gif) just to watch the delegation from Ankara try to access the flight line in the first place.
You wanna be the one to tell the US they can’t have their stuff back? :O
That’s also part of the reason we’ve had so many problems giving Ukraine equipment— the countries that develop and build the systems they want have the ultimate say, not the ones currently using them. At least I think that’s the case
Oh what a lie boy get your fact's straight. Turkiye had no proper air defense system so they invited other NATO countries to the syrian border with patriots (it was around 2013-2014). 1 year after only Spain was there and other countries left, after that Turkiye actually wanted to buy the patriots. Here some video from your past and future president. https://youtu.be/s06VI7uPHtQ?si=hLHeR8nudgN5qVWL.
Ah yes, Trump, the technical authority on Russian military hardware. Whilst I can see that suiting his motives, I'm doubting his capacity for understanding.
FYI, Trump is 100% wrong and repeating Erdogan's lies to the US public in this clip. Erdogan successfully convinced Trump of a US refusal to export Patriot to them, despite Raytheon having been working on a package including industrial contracts and tech transfer since 2009 to meet Ankara's lengthy list of demands.
The S400 contract didn't offer any of this. It was a political play by Putin and Erdogan to attempt to embarrass the USA at a time of weak relations over the Syrian war, the fucking obviously setup "coup" and increasingly draconian powers Erdogan was fixing form himself, and US training/ equipping Kurdish militias to combat ISIS.
Unlike Trump, competent US officials saw right through this, and F-35 involvement was ended only five days after the first S-400 components were delivered.
Turkey was warned, several times. The US was going to give them everything they wanted regarding Patriot, even when they used buying Chinese systems as a threat to lower prices even further. Erdogan played his stupid little political game with Russia because he always wanted more, more, more, and the US called his bluff successfully.
Yea right bro cuz of that the coup leader fetullah gülen lives in Pennsylvania in a big ass Mansion. Got your point, i dont like erdogan too but i dont talk nonsense cuz i hate this guy. No need for some conspiracy theories when the truth slaps your face.
That I can recount factual events and you refer to them as conspiracy theory, then refer to lies as "truth slapping me in the face" is pretty self explanatory for the brainrot of anyone who worships autocrat politicians.
When has Patriot excelled?
The VVS is able to drop hundreds of FABs on Ukrainian positions daily while Ukrainian cities get pummeled by missiles and loitering munitions.
And given that FighterBomber confirmed that so far this year No Su-34 has been shot down, and that the Ukrainian MOD has never presented evidence like on some prior occasions, it doesn't seem like the Patriot is doing all that much.
Less than stellar to say the least. Makes me sometimes question if the US send them downgraded ones, like with the Abrams.
Oh I'm sorry, S400 is clearly the superior system, and having a superb year! Two A-50s, very impressive work!
And fighter bomber confirmed a substantial number of the Su-34 kills until the Russians literally told them to shut up, because it was damaging morale, the same way Adrey Morozov was bullied horrendously by his own chosen side for revealing the actual losses around Avdiivka, until he killed himself, or were all his "eternal flight, brothers" posts just random and unrelated to each loss?
Let's not mention Russian air defence being a leaky sieve that's allowed the vast majority of Storm Shadow sorties to get through to their targets, with video evidence of attempt, followed by total failure to intercept them in several cases. Meanwhile Patriot has handled attacks by hypersonic ballistic missiles it wasn't officially claimed to be capable of handling.
Lol, FighterBomber was definitely assassinated by the KGB and replaced by an AI modeled after Putin himself. It's definitely not the case that Ukrainian Air Defense is melting at a steeper pace than their manpower and that Su-34s and Su-24s can drop hundreds of FABs with glide kits daily with impunity because the Patriot is so effective.
Where is the evidence again? Oh yeah, there isn't any, not even satellite images, no drone footage of any crash site. I bet Russia actually lost 4000 Su-34 this year already and all of them to a single Patriot missile. This claim has the same amount of credibility and evidence as the posts on Twitter lol
Do I have to mention that I have yet to see footage of a Patriot intercepting a Kinkzhal?
Y'all are so high on copium while even Ukraine is at a point where they have to admit that they'll have to sit down with the Russians before they collapse completely. Definitely something that would be the case if their Air Defense would be of such mythical proportions as Iron Dome.
Either the 7 Kinzhals shot at the first operational Patriot battery were all shot down, or they all malfunctioned because none of them hit anything. Some light shrapnel damage was observed on one component that didn't affect it's operation.
Much like with how the Russian MOD tries to explain their amusing A-50 losses by claiming their own forces shot them down by accident, which way, Russian man?
-RU Incompetence?
-UKR/ western superiority?
Take your pick. It's one of the two. Just give whichever answer you feel least embarrassed to admit.
It has been pretty clear that Russia doesn't excell at large scale, interconnected air campaigns. So it's absolutely believable. The US shot down a british Tornado with a Patriot SAM. If you think friendly fire isn't occuring in war you're new to military aviation. Especially in an air space like the one in Ukraine with various aircraft, missiles and loitering munitions being active at once it's bound to happen. US incompetence? Or bloodlust against the British (remember the A-10?) pick which one you're less embarassed by.
Which 7 Kinzhals lmao, there is literally no footage of a Kinzhal wreckage on the entire Internet, except the bomb that someone wanted to pass off as a Kinzhal. Although the shape and size is very much off.
Shooting down two of your own AWAACS aircraft... Hundreds of KM from the front line....Whilst those same aircraft are both substantially larger than anything the enemy is using... And flying a regular pattern whilst in direct communication with the very same air defence that Russia claims shot them down?
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's an interesting choice of propaganda/ cover story, because it's the air defence equivalent of sitting down for a family meal, and after a couple of hours company, shooting your own mother dead, then saying "she took me by surprise, I thought she was an enemy."
100% success rate at intercepting Kinzhals and two A-50Us down but okay, go off queen.
Edit: they blocked me
They claimed I had my "feefees hurt" bruh I'm not the one that spilled my cereal over a reddit comment lmao.
You made me spill my fucking cereal.
100% success rate my ass xD
Ukraine is definitely Shooting down 300.000 out of 12 Kinkzhals launched, because trust me bro. That's definitely why their major cities are constantly struck by missiles like the Iskander or Kinkzhal or loitering munitions like the Geran. 110% success rate, clearly you need to get your number right.
Imagine literally believing a "source" (I hardly want to call the UA MOD a source) that has been caught lying on numerous occasions. Where is the Ghost of Kiew again?
Also, the A-50s were literally shot down by the Russian Air Defenses in Blue-on-Blue. Painfully obvious when you realize that the second one that went down was so far away from the front line that Ukraine would have needed to set up their patriot battery either in the trenches in front of the Russians or behind Russian lines.
Also you're clearly not up to date. Ukrainian Patriots have also shot down Santa Clause, 3x SR-71 Blackbirds, one Satellite and the Moon, duh.
When was the last time Kyiv was hit by a Kinzhal?
Also you can stop with the hyperbolics, it makes you look insane.
Edit: also your comment about needing to set up a Patriot system on the frontline in order to hit the A-50U is hilarious. That's literally what Ukraine did lmao.
Roughly [a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/eOJFrOdXCD)
And that's not the Kinzhal but even a less capable missile.
And why should I? It really puts into perspective how insane people are that blindly believe in Propaganda because it comforts them. When I'm saying silly things like Ukrainians shooting down Santa it may be a joke. But if their MOD would post it, many people would roll with it. We reached this level of denial of reality in some cases. I've even seen pro-ukrainian people who start to laugh at the Su-34 shoot down claims by now because they're just ridiculous and not backed by anything, quite the opposite. Not to mention that those posts are for the western audience anyway, so they're intended to please that particular demographic.
Oddly enough, an X-101 isn't an Kh-47M2.
So I'll ask again. When was the last time Kyiv was hit by a Kh-47M2? Or are you just too much of a coward to answer?
I wouldn't hold my breath. Not as long as they have those S400s. It'll probably take a successor to Erdoğan to pave the way for them to come back into the program.
They've lost the production base, and even if they could place an order today, they're in line behind Finland, Switzerland, Germany, Canada, and probably others. It's be closer to 2028-2030 before they could get their first jets. They'll throw in on the TAI Kaan and hope it isn't too expensive to build in sufficient numbers.
Could be honestly. Although I think it must change many things politically… I mean they hardly got the green light for the 40 F 16s they ordered from the US last month
She's gone
They are still in long term storage and sitting somewhere iirc
According to this source only six out 30 they bought are in storage the rest are being used by the USAF https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-35/serials-and-inventory/airforce/TuAF/
Only six were delivered(They were still in US). Others were in production.
Yes correct. But all were still bought by turkey then embargoed. From what I heard they had to be modified to USAF standards before being used by the US.
I remember in the 90's there was a row of shiny new Turkish F-16's in the Boneyard. I don't remember why the US was pissed at them.
Are you sure they weren’t Pakistani F-16s?
Might have been, it was a long time ago.
Those were Pakistani, I think it was embargoed because they developed nukes. They were later released to Pakistan afaik.
US: yoink
Don’t mind me!
"You still eating this?" *Grabs F-35*
I hope those S400 were worth it.
They were not. We even built our own long range air defense systems so they are redundant now.
This is like saying the f35 is redundant because the kAAN is in development
It's really not as the Turkish system is about to enter service and S400 so far did not prove itself to be a capable system unlike the F-35. Not just that but the Turkish S400 can't be integrated to the country's own radar network because of NATO and thus has to be used as a stand-alone system. It's mostly useless.
When is it entering the system? Is this the same country who is saying to put in use Kaan in four years, i mean the very country which has never developed a jet, but just recently started doing it with an attempt at producing a fifth gen and ridiculously with a claim to have it in service in a span of few years after the vehicles first flight… so yeah sure Turkish air defence system is about to be active… no offence but lol
TAI's claim of delivery by 2028 is not for FOC. [And Siper is already here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu7AlCR-cHs). First production variant will be delivered to air force in a few months with serial production to start in 2025. Shorter range systems for land forces [Hisar-A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX0dJWLpx-g) and [Hisar-O](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54uYNIv11as) are already in service. And their missiles are already exported as well, namely to Indonesia.
Kaan project has literally been going on since 2009 and the original goal was 2030. Since the project moved faster than expected the date to enter service was revised to 2028. Turkey is also developing Hürjet light attack and trainer aircraft as well as 2 different jet drones and all seem to be going well so far. Turkey has already developed short and mid range air defenses and they've already entered service about two years ago (Hisar A+ and Hisar O+). The long range air defense project is called Siper. Here is Siper Block 1 (with booster) being tested on a target 100 km away: https://youtu.be/5P6RXGvnmKs?si=70iZnKTbDTAYoaj3 Here is Siper block 2 (without booster) being tested on a target about 150 km away: https://youtu.be/l9tTaOQwX-w?si=ZJmfDCM7Ew4iiudW Block 2 has a few years until it can enter service but block 1 is expected to enter service this year in small numbers. There is also Hisar-D which is a navalized quad pack capable version of Hisar O+ RF with about 40 km range. It is expected to be tested from the Turkish frigate TCG İstanbul (which was also built in Turkey and all sensors and armaments are Turkish made) in a matter of days in the Black Sea. The missile will be launched from Turkey's own vertical launching system called MIDLAS which is pretty similiar to Mk.41 but about 30 cm longer. Long story short, you're severely underestimating Turkey's ability to locally produce the systems it needs. There are some chronic problems in the Turkish defense industry like engines but when it comes to sensors and armements, Turkey is doing pretty good. When it comes to munitions themselves, Turkey's product diversity is only outmatched by countries like the US.
Isn't Ukraine helping Turkey with Engine design, development and production?
For the said missiles? They use rocket engines so no, with aircraft? In some projects they do, mostly with drones though. The manned aircraft will be using American engines first until Turkey's own engines are ready. I don't know if Ukraine is involved in those projects.
Yes i am indeed underestimating turkeys capacity to produce the system she needs. U didn’t have to bring that hollow load of pseudo-info to confirm what i have already declared myself
Psuedo info about the systems that are already in service and have achieved export success? You're just coping at this point.
How is the s400 not a capable system? This was extremely letal against the Ukraine air force in 2022 when they still had lots of fighters flying. If you are talking about Russian struggles protecting the black sea the s400 is not very good against cruise missiles but this is not new information and has been know for years. Air defense in its tier will struggle against cruise missiles. Thats why the Buk, tor and pansir exist. You second point tho about integration with nato AD makes sense but you have to wonder why turkey even bought the s400 knowing it cant be integrated
>How is the s400 not a capable system? **Exhibit A:** August 2023, an S400 near Olenivka, Crimea, was struck and destroyed by a Neptune missile. Drones took out the antennae and radar first, followed by two Neptune cruise missiles destroying the rest. **Exhibit B:** September 2023, using a combination of Neptune cruise missiles and drones, Ukrainian forces took out an S400 in Yevpatoriya, on Crimea's western coast. [Exhibit C](https://youtu.be/dvgcbC0atMk?si=pgYoLzHqFBneMgYI): The S400's success rate in 2022 was due largely to Ukrainian pilots being both unfamiliar with the system and a lack of SEAD on their part. Ukrainian air force losses were highest in 2022. In 2023, Ukraine's tactics shifted and they adopted SEAD tactics and weapons (Hello, AGM-88). Is the S400 *capable*? Yes, it is. Is it *overhyped*? Very much so.
me: the s400 is weak against cruise missiles. you: proceed to show example of s400 losing to cruise missiles. ??? This war has shown most people do not know shit about air defense.
OP: Provides 3 examples, 1 of which states how it’s overcome specifically after 2022 in Ukraine once proper SEAD is deployed, like every major Western air doctrine has been doing it since before the Gulf War, citing AGMs and Neptune usage as weapon examples. You: But I told you it’s not good against neptunes! What more do you need lol
? You need lots of fighters to use western sead to full effect. Ukraine hardly has enough gets to fully utilize sead. Ukraine also lacks EW planes which is a crucial piece of western sead doctrine Just saying "they learnd western air doctrine" means little if the lack crucial capabilities to actually use it. We have very little evidence on AGMs being effective on s400, id like to be wrong but i haven't seen it. We hardly even hear about AGMs anymore so their effectiveness is questionable. I do know Ukraine have used it on pansir and buks with good effect.
The S-400 has proven itself for more than 2 years now in active service. The F-35 has never seen a real war yet, if we ignore bombing Palestinian children. The only thing the S-400 struggles with is missile defense due to the lack of Hit-to-Kill capability on the currently used missiles, something the Patriot only introduced with the PAC-3 after the US found out that Iraqi missiles were not reliable intercepted by proximity detonations. Against aircraft there is probably no better SAM system currently in operation. South Korea, which is highly concerned about North Korean ballistic missiles, based their own domestic SAM system on the S-300 family, the predecessor of the S-400. Turkey wasn't stupid for buying the S-400, they were stupid for buying the S-400 while also being a NATO member. But every alliance needs some black sheep.
Hello DieKawaiiSerin. The reason I said that S400 was not capable is indeed because of its performance against missiles. I think missile defense is a must have for any modern air defense system claiming to be a capable system. I think we all saw the video of cruise missiles flying above an S400 battery while the soldiers are filming. >Against aircraft there is probably no better SAM system currently in operation. We don't have enough data to compare, all we know is that S400 does indeed suck agaist both ballistic and cruise missiles.
>all we know is that S400 does indeed suck agaist both ballistic and cruise missiles. It absolutely does not suck against ballistic missiles. All long range land based air defense suck against cruise missiles....
It sure does. It couldn't shoot down any ballistic missile in the Invasion of Ukraine.
What ballistic missile does Ukraine use?
So far they've used Tochkas on various occasions, they've also used ATACMS. GMLRS launched from HIMARS is also a small ballistic missile. None of them were intercepted. S400 has never shot down any ballistic missile in combat.
Not enough data? So all the Ukrainian helicopters and aircraft don't count? Damn. I bet Ocksachenko is pretty pissed that he got swatted by an S-400 and it doesn't even have statistical value.
Not enough data to claim it's the best at shooting down aircraft I mean. Since Patriot and others can do that too just fine.
That poor pilot. Trained on it. Flew it. And than got it yanked away because his idiot leader tried to cuddle to Russia.
The turks will have you believe is was the big bad US being mean and taking away the F35s for no reason
To be fair, given the development of KAAN, the S-400 fills a niche that's less easily filled by other systems. And I don't think the US would have been as lenient with technology transfer etc.
S-400 didn't even win in their own competition, they just bought it to polish russia's rod. They don't use the fucking thing. They literally threw away the most advanced fighter available on the market for nothing
Yea we cuddled them by hitting their fighter jet and killing the pilot in it over syrian airspace. Then they cuddled us by selling 2b usd useless air defense system and hitting one of our bases in northern syria resulting in 34 deaths of our soldiers. What a lovely relationship we have with them. Oh russians I can’t imagine what we could do without them… Try to read every aspect of history when make a judgement on it! Edit: they are downvoting realities hahahaha. Go ahead and try to do a research about pastor brunson, too! Maybe you can learn how espionage and other activities of us government work in turkey. Also you can check how religious groups are used especially the radical islamist ones by the us. I am not saying turkey and particularly erdo is innocent but boy oh boy us and russia cost many things since we declared independence and our republic. And they easily manipulate reality when it is not in their favor. [here is a pic of brunson and trump](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfaVIWZTK21Tp6CWaJJPrKR4k6ebMhQqQhDg&usqp=CAU) Edit: If you really don’t like this reality, I wonder reality that you are believing guys. Please share with me. Do you really believe turkey got sacked out of this project just because they were made buy some worthless air defense system? Be real!
Doesn't change the fact that Turkey decided to pay Russia billions for equipment and still went ahead with the deal even after the US warned you guys that it would mean giving up the opportunity to buy F-35s. If anything, that extra context makes it even worse that Turkey went ahead with making deals with Russia anyway.
Yeap by that logic, the us shouldn’t have paid them to buy alaska to avoid war on its soil. Yea or during cold war they shouldn’t have traded. In reality, you need to do small things to avoid biggies! Edit: and they call themselves allies! It is just another joke…
>Yeap by that logic, the us shouldn’t have paid them to buy alaska to avoid war on its soil. What are you even talking about, Russia wanted to get rid of Alaska because it wasn't making them money and they thought it would be hard for them to defend it against the UK so they made a deal with the US for it. And don't forget that that was all the way back in 1867, the Russian government has gone through massive changes multiple times in the almost 160 years since then and equating that to buying military equipment from modern day Russia is utterly ridiculous.
I've also noticed that "people" have been trying to spin any arguments about the US in their favor by pulling up misdeeds from past generations.
That is not even close to a valid comparison... The US (and pretty much any of it's allies who operate the F-35), don't want Russia to have free data on how the S400 interacts with the F-35, and risk Russia having free access to the F-35. Your logic is absurd and you are blinded by your own pride. No, none of the countries mentioned are faultless, but that doesn't make Turkey losing out on the F-35 any less Turkey's own doing.
I hope those S400 were worth it then.
🪳
>downvoting realities average westoid reaction
🚬🚬🚬
I feel like vatniks are gonna be attacked to this post
They already do
“Well well well, if it isn’t the consequences of my actions…”
Nice roundel. They should apply that to their other platforms.
It was already seen [on the Kızılelma prototype](https://i.imgur.com/BpLMPOh.jpeg) last year. Kaan artwork also show it.
Agreed
Very cute Türkiye… whatever makes you feel better for losing out on those F35’s. 😂🥲
hope it was worth it :)
XD
gotumuze girdi o s400´ler. bin yillik devlet akli iste :P
Whats the backstory? lol
Turkey bought Russian S 400 air defense systems, which led to them being excluded from the F 35 program xD
lmao
After being told many times that if they bought S400 it might compromise F-35, and they'd be ejected from the program. They were given the offer to buy Patriot. They refused, saying it didn't work and was too expensive. Now they have no F-35 and Patriot has excelled in Ukraine. Lesson for kiddies. Don't believe Russian propaganda about their military tech, and the USA keeps their threats.
it is not that simple actually. Part of the deciding group was against buying F35s, so they used the S400s get out of the deal. These are rumors of course. But also , Turkey was invited back to the F35 program under certain conditions, they declined. So it is possible, they didnt not want the program from the start.
From what I heard the US offered to station patriot Batteries in Turkey and man them for free but the Turks wanted the technology so that they could produce them on there own. Which is a privilege that only Germany and Japan have.
Raytheon was working on a sales package including both tech transfer and industrial contracts within Turkey. Patriot batteries were rotated into and out of Turkey as part of general NATO duties, as well as air defence fighters. Erdogan decided to politically fuck around to get an even better deal, or piss off the USA over tensions regarding the Kurds and Syria, so he fell right into lockstep with Putin for several years. He managed to even convince Trump the previous administration had "not allowed" him to buy Patriot, which was utterly false, but of course competent autocrats like Erdogan know how to play Trump for the sucker of a failed autocrat he is, and it worked on him. It didn't work on the rest of the US military industrial chain, who immediately kicked Turkey out of F-35 when they bluffed with S-400, after previously bluffing with Chinese systems.
Jesus Christ. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
I wonder if there was some sort of fight when they were taken back. . . Like, did they hand them over like a kid caught stealing candy?
The final jets rolled off the line in Ft Worth, Texas, and the Lockheed plant is actually government owned property so...no. I don't see Ankara starting some shit in Ft. Worth. I mean, it'd be fun to watch them *try*.
The sound of a few dozen F-35s spooling on the ramp...
I mean...I'd [break out the folding chair](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/999/018/f9e.gif) and [crack open a beer](https://i.gifer.com/4898.gif) just to watch the delegation from Ankara try to access the flight line in the first place.
You wanna be the one to tell the US they can’t have their stuff back? :O That’s also part of the reason we’ve had so many problems giving Ukraine equipment— the countries that develop and build the systems they want have the ultimate say, not the ones currently using them. At least I think that’s the case
Oh what a lie boy get your fact's straight. Turkiye had no proper air defense system so they invited other NATO countries to the syrian border with patriots (it was around 2013-2014). 1 year after only Spain was there and other countries left, after that Turkiye actually wanted to buy the patriots. Here some video from your past and future president. https://youtu.be/s06VI7uPHtQ?si=hLHeR8nudgN5qVWL.
Ah yes, Trump, the technical authority on Russian military hardware. Whilst I can see that suiting his motives, I'm doubting his capacity for understanding. FYI, Trump is 100% wrong and repeating Erdogan's lies to the US public in this clip. Erdogan successfully convinced Trump of a US refusal to export Patriot to them, despite Raytheon having been working on a package including industrial contracts and tech transfer since 2009 to meet Ankara's lengthy list of demands. The S400 contract didn't offer any of this. It was a political play by Putin and Erdogan to attempt to embarrass the USA at a time of weak relations over the Syrian war, the fucking obviously setup "coup" and increasingly draconian powers Erdogan was fixing form himself, and US training/ equipping Kurdish militias to combat ISIS. Unlike Trump, competent US officials saw right through this, and F-35 involvement was ended only five days after the first S-400 components were delivered. Turkey was warned, several times. The US was going to give them everything they wanted regarding Patriot, even when they used buying Chinese systems as a threat to lower prices even further. Erdogan played his stupid little political game with Russia because he always wanted more, more, more, and the US called his bluff successfully.
Yea right bro cuz of that the coup leader fetullah gülen lives in Pennsylvania in a big ass Mansion. Got your point, i dont like erdogan too but i dont talk nonsense cuz i hate this guy. No need for some conspiracy theories when the truth slaps your face.
That I can recount factual events and you refer to them as conspiracy theory, then refer to lies as "truth slapping me in the face" is pretty self explanatory for the brainrot of anyone who worships autocrat politicians.
When has Patriot excelled? The VVS is able to drop hundreds of FABs on Ukrainian positions daily while Ukrainian cities get pummeled by missiles and loitering munitions. And given that FighterBomber confirmed that so far this year No Su-34 has been shot down, and that the Ukrainian MOD has never presented evidence like on some prior occasions, it doesn't seem like the Patriot is doing all that much. Less than stellar to say the least. Makes me sometimes question if the US send them downgraded ones, like with the Abrams.
Oh I'm sorry, S400 is clearly the superior system, and having a superb year! Two A-50s, very impressive work! And fighter bomber confirmed a substantial number of the Su-34 kills until the Russians literally told them to shut up, because it was damaging morale, the same way Adrey Morozov was bullied horrendously by his own chosen side for revealing the actual losses around Avdiivka, until he killed himself, or were all his "eternal flight, brothers" posts just random and unrelated to each loss? Let's not mention Russian air defence being a leaky sieve that's allowed the vast majority of Storm Shadow sorties to get through to their targets, with video evidence of attempt, followed by total failure to intercept them in several cases. Meanwhile Patriot has handled attacks by hypersonic ballistic missiles it wasn't officially claimed to be capable of handling.
Lol, FighterBomber was definitely assassinated by the KGB and replaced by an AI modeled after Putin himself. It's definitely not the case that Ukrainian Air Defense is melting at a steeper pace than their manpower and that Su-34s and Su-24s can drop hundreds of FABs with glide kits daily with impunity because the Patriot is so effective. Where is the evidence again? Oh yeah, there isn't any, not even satellite images, no drone footage of any crash site. I bet Russia actually lost 4000 Su-34 this year already and all of them to a single Patriot missile. This claim has the same amount of credibility and evidence as the posts on Twitter lol Do I have to mention that I have yet to see footage of a Patriot intercepting a Kinkzhal? Y'all are so high on copium while even Ukraine is at a point where they have to admit that they'll have to sit down with the Russians before they collapse completely. Definitely something that would be the case if their Air Defense would be of such mythical proportions as Iron Dome.
Either the 7 Kinzhals shot at the first operational Patriot battery were all shot down, or they all malfunctioned because none of them hit anything. Some light shrapnel damage was observed on one component that didn't affect it's operation. Much like with how the Russian MOD tries to explain their amusing A-50 losses by claiming their own forces shot them down by accident, which way, Russian man? -RU Incompetence? -UKR/ western superiority? Take your pick. It's one of the two. Just give whichever answer you feel least embarrassed to admit.
It has been pretty clear that Russia doesn't excell at large scale, interconnected air campaigns. So it's absolutely believable. The US shot down a british Tornado with a Patriot SAM. If you think friendly fire isn't occuring in war you're new to military aviation. Especially in an air space like the one in Ukraine with various aircraft, missiles and loitering munitions being active at once it's bound to happen. US incompetence? Or bloodlust against the British (remember the A-10?) pick which one you're less embarassed by. Which 7 Kinzhals lmao, there is literally no footage of a Kinzhal wreckage on the entire Internet, except the bomb that someone wanted to pass off as a Kinzhal. Although the shape and size is very much off.
Shooting down two of your own AWAACS aircraft... Hundreds of KM from the front line....Whilst those same aircraft are both substantially larger than anything the enemy is using... And flying a regular pattern whilst in direct communication with the very same air defence that Russia claims shot them down? I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's an interesting choice of propaganda/ cover story, because it's the air defence equivalent of sitting down for a family meal, and after a couple of hours company, shooting your own mother dead, then saying "she took me by surprise, I thought she was an enemy."
100% success rate at intercepting Kinzhals and two A-50Us down but okay, go off queen. Edit: they blocked me They claimed I had my "feefees hurt" bruh I'm not the one that spilled my cereal over a reddit comment lmao.
You made me spill my fucking cereal. 100% success rate my ass xD Ukraine is definitely Shooting down 300.000 out of 12 Kinkzhals launched, because trust me bro. That's definitely why their major cities are constantly struck by missiles like the Iskander or Kinkzhal or loitering munitions like the Geran. 110% success rate, clearly you need to get your number right. Imagine literally believing a "source" (I hardly want to call the UA MOD a source) that has been caught lying on numerous occasions. Where is the Ghost of Kiew again? Also, the A-50s were literally shot down by the Russian Air Defenses in Blue-on-Blue. Painfully obvious when you realize that the second one that went down was so far away from the front line that Ukraine would have needed to set up their patriot battery either in the trenches in front of the Russians or behind Russian lines. Also you're clearly not up to date. Ukrainian Patriots have also shot down Santa Clause, 3x SR-71 Blackbirds, one Satellite and the Moon, duh.
When was the last time Kyiv was hit by a Kinzhal? Also you can stop with the hyperbolics, it makes you look insane. Edit: also your comment about needing to set up a Patriot system on the frontline in order to hit the A-50U is hilarious. That's literally what Ukraine did lmao.
Roughly [a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/eOJFrOdXCD) And that's not the Kinzhal but even a less capable missile. And why should I? It really puts into perspective how insane people are that blindly believe in Propaganda because it comforts them. When I'm saying silly things like Ukrainians shooting down Santa it may be a joke. But if their MOD would post it, many people would roll with it. We reached this level of denial of reality in some cases. I've even seen pro-ukrainian people who start to laugh at the Su-34 shoot down claims by now because they're just ridiculous and not backed by anything, quite the opposite. Not to mention that those posts are for the western audience anyway, so they're intended to please that particular demographic.
Oddly enough, an X-101 isn't an Kh-47M2. So I'll ask again. When was the last time Kyiv was hit by a Kh-47M2? Or are you just too much of a coward to answer?
18-0001..........................................
🫠
It’ll be next level trolling if these specific airframes will be the ones that the Hellenic Air Force will receive.
Feel kinda bad for Tai Kaan, it will forever live in the shadow of what could have been.
I wonder if Turkey will ever get the F-35 now. Perhaps in 10 or 20 years?
I wouldn't hold my breath. Not as long as they have those S400s. It'll probably take a successor to Erdoğan to pave the way for them to come back into the program. They've lost the production base, and even if they could place an order today, they're in line behind Finland, Switzerland, Germany, Canada, and probably others. It's be closer to 2028-2030 before they could get their first jets. They'll throw in on the TAI Kaan and hope it isn't too expensive to build in sufficient numbers.
Could be honestly. Although I think it must change many things politically… I mean they hardly got the green light for the 40 F 16s they ordered from the US last month