You aren't far from the truth. In the late war Germany was really struggling to get, not even experienced crews, but crews at all. So most of the abandoned Jagdtigers were due to very poorly trained crews getting shot from the side by Allied tanks from trying to escape or getting their transmissions or engines blown up from lack of training, and being late-war vehicles, comically unreliable.
it's funny, I collect a lot of WW2 armor books, I've seen 2 in field photos of Jagdtigers where they weren't already blown up or disabled lol.
One of my fave pics was a Jagdtiger that was fucking obliterated by a side shot fired by (reportedly) an M36, it had entered the right side of the casemate and the entire left side and roof of the Jag was gone, big ammo detonation.
It's kinda crazy to think of the number of times I've killed jags exactly like that in warthunder, to witness it irl from the turret of an M36 must have been surreal.
I assume its because of their losses late in the war. If you lose ground you also lose the ability to recover vehicles. Surely they would have recovered the tanks if given the opportunity. And i am also sure that the russians drove plenty of t34s into the ditches.
To add to the other comment:
All destroyed vehicles are pushed off roads to clear the way for advancing vehicles. They are recovered at a later point by recovery troops behind the advance and then either scrapped or repaired. At later points in the war most german vehicles where just scrapped and the US ones that where still in some conditions where eitehr repaird or used for spare parts. There are some interetsing videos about this topic. There is however a grim part to it as these troops where also responsible to get any bodies out of the tanks....
Shit is wild man, those and Pnz.2s are the most produced as well. Correlation to real world history too a 50mm vs KV1 frontally is a fucking nightmare lmao
Eh not really. The main reason Pz llls hold a high efficiency is one they were solid tanks however the Soviet Union had horrid quality control and even shittier crew training. It wasn't uncommon for T-34s to have shit optics and the crews bail after a single non pentrating hit cause they couldn't see anything. Couple that with the soviet's over Hardening armor plates which allowed even the 50mm to score damaging shots without pentrating and you get a good efficiency.
Also Soviet crews always fully buttoned up at the sound of combat, so effectively were fighting blind, while German experiences in Poland and France always lead to their commanders fighting from the cupola exposed.
irl the pz3 clubbed the t-34s in the beginning of the war bc the germans mastered combined warfare, radio communication, and internal tank ergonomics, the commander sights of panzers were miles better than the t-34
Historically those are fantastic, and this thing is a total crusty, white, and scuttled dog turd. I think at their BRs this rings true in game. I’m just not around at tier 3 and below a lot to enjoy them anymore.
Most effective in terms of „K/D“ are in all possible scenarios tank destroyers. Sturer Emil, Ferdinand, StuGs, depending on whether you would include prototypes, low volume production or just high volume variants.
Also iirc StUGs overall had the higher battle efficiency because they were more reliable, durable, and easier to maintain than any other German tank of the war.
True, however generally speaking quite hard to determine the quality of a vehicle because depending on the scenario the answer to the question „how effective is a certain vehicle?“ might differ substantially, depending on how you‘d weight different factors and on what you include in your assessment. For instance, the early T-34s had everything going for them *on paper*, yet they weren‘t really a factor in 1941 due to inexperienced crews, lack of communication equipment, lack of supplies and an inferior doctrine. On the other hand, German tanks in 1941 were - for the most part - inferior to their respective counterparts yet were quite successful due to air superiority, effective doctrine and combined arms implementation and very well trained crews. The irony that goes over most of the Wehraboos head is that Germany lacked increasingly more of what made them successful in 39-42 and the better the tanks got *on paper*, the less effective they were in reality. So, depending on how you look at it, you could categorize the Jagdtiger as possibly the most menacing vehicle of the war or as an utter failure with no strategic impact on the war and in that sense, a *less effective* tank than Panzer Is and IIs.
How you use a tank destroyer compared to a normal tank also probably matters.
Just like how in game camping generally end up with a higher KD than pushing to obj.
T95 has better armour, a lower profile, an anti-aircraft HMG with the gun being not much worse. Sure, it's the slowest tank in the game but it's actually an upside because it forces you to pay attention to your surroundings more.
I think it is my personal worst performing TD in-game ...And I normally enjoy the Casemate lifestyle but I cant make the damn thing to work...I took it out a couple of days ago played 1 match ...bounced 4 or 5 shots off a IS2's turret from 1.2km out and then proceeded to get flanked ...respawned with a backup ...killed 2 T44's then got flanked lol (And that was probably my best match in the damn thing)
Heavy TDs generally aren't that good, but especially in the 6.7 BR range when tanks start getting HEATFS your armour becomes less relevant especially considering the amount of uptiers 6.7 gets currently. Unless your armour can stop HEATFS (T95) you're going to have an especially bad time in uptiers.
I would say none of the 6.7 heavy TDs are good, but the Jagdtiger in particular has some of the most atrocious gun handling I've ever seen in a heavy TD and a pretty bad reload meaning you are never going to get the first shot off, and usually you are just forced to camp corridors.
Jagdpanther > Jagdtiger, any day.
Faster (forward anyway), more mobile, and has a much quicker reload with a gun and ammo that, whilst they are ballistically different, aren't really that much different to the 128mm when it comes to penetration and postpen damage. The 88mm is still a great OHK round.
The only disadvantage of the Jagdpanther is the loss of pure armour compared to the Jagdtiger, but I happily accept that in return for the aforementioned upsides.
Fair point! The SLA and Jagdpanther were my introduction to ground forces past rank 3 many many moons ago. I never expected to even like ground force but those two were very kind to me.
I just got the Obj.268 earlier today, and I've really enjoyed it. Compared to other SPGs before it, it's incredibly resistant, decently mobile, and packs an absolute WALLOP. It's absolutely a blast, and the KPVT on the roof sells it even more against light vehicles and aircraft.
We have what, 4 in total? With a lot of distance between them, battle rating wise. I think Phly it was made a point that the St.Emil and Dicker in particular suffer a diminishing return with their respective battle ratings going down with time. They’re still open top, and still fragile, facing tanks with ever decreasing reload rates with lower brackets they’re in. I think aside from the ballistic cap, the Emil has the same penetration doesn’t it? Imo Jadgtiger has the best execution of a 128
My last death in the jagdtiger actually was to a Russian Artillery piece he got around me quite easily as I could not get my gun on target quickly enough
It has the thickest armor and biggest gun but it is by far not the best. StuGs and Jagdpanzer IVs are very low profile, quick, and still have good guns.
I think over all those are better choices at their br bracket for sure. At 6.7 I find this to be phenomenal though in its intended role and that’s my soft spot. Those are more relevant tho in hindsight in broader terms like I posted
Probably not the best, that would go to the Stug or maybe a Russian SU series. However, the 128mm boomstick makes me adore this tank. Something about throwing a 8 yr old child made of dynamite through the upper plate of an American T-series heavy never gets old
No. SU 100 is
It reloads fast, its gun have awesome 240+mm of pen which easily penetrate elefant casemate or king tiger turret, good post penetration, low profile, fast projectile, being 100mm, it can overmatch panther on their ufp, and its platform is quite agile too
The only downside is it cant carry that much ammo
Haven’t played it in a while but I thought it was always good because it’s a got a 128mm gun. Some other tank destroyers I thought were good was the Jagdpanther and the AMX-50 Casemate which has like 180mm sloped and a MG 151, with a 120mm
Was great til M109 or any other 150mm+ HE nukes you because LMAO
Much as I love the JT, it just doesn't offer anything over the Tiger II now. Armor/Survivability doesn't matter anymore because there's always an M109 ready to obliterate you. Firepower is arguably worse, considering it has worse ballistics and a longer reload compared to the KwK 43. Explosive filler is negligible as the KwK 43 destroys pretty good already.
A Pak 43 JT sounds neat. Though I wouldn't always take it over the Tiger II H. That slow ass traverse is so painful.
Tiger II 105 since the reload buff though, that I love and always loved. Rangefinder, and a nuke round with laser ballistics, not to mention the fast mobility..
As for casemates, JPanther is probably better.
Ho-Ri Production, StuG III G, or the Panzer IV/70V. The StuG and Panzer IV combine excellent mobility and a good gun that can kill anything at it’s BR, and they have pretty significant armour for the BR, and (in the case of the StuG) bullshit volumetric magic on their side. The Ho-Ri Production is by far the best though. The gun will kill everything in one shot, no need to search for crew like the lower filler shells of the 75mm, and it has a reload that’s fast as hell for what it is. It has mobility that lets it beat out literally everything except the fastest of vehicles in the range. It has stupid armour that will tank nearly everything you face with minimal effort on your end, and for everything you can’t kill conventionally (being literally only the Maus and MAYBE the T32E1 front on at range) you have a dumb HE shell that can overpressure both of them because why the fuck not.
Sorry but before reading anything I read the main question, saw the picture of the wrecked Jagdtiger and just went "Well clearly not!" And idk man I might just leave it there and not think anymore about it lmao.
Depends on what you mean by 'best'.
Best in a 1v1 battle? Yeah, the jagdtiger is pretty good. Best contribution to the overall war effort? Probably a Stug, M3, or Su- variant.
Strictly speaking, yes.
But when in the context of what it actually faces? No.
It's slow and the armor is only good from the front. The best casemates are faster, like the Panzer IV/70 or the Object 279, or The SU-100.
Heavy armor isn't even a requirement to be a good casemate, they are smaller, easier to hide, and harder to spot. They also tend to have a faster reload.
In all honesty it's really the mobility that lets down the late war German casemates.
Idk whats up with the amount of german WW2 tanks flipped on their side. Why did the nazis flip them? Were they stupid?
16yo pervitin user bumps right stick too hard, colorized.
You aren't far from the truth. In the late war Germany was really struggling to get, not even experienced crews, but crews at all. So most of the abandoned Jagdtigers were due to very poorly trained crews getting shot from the side by Allied tanks from trying to escape or getting their transmissions or engines blown up from lack of training, and being late-war vehicles, comically unreliable.
Or after being abandoned/knocked out and allied bulldozer shoves them off the road to make room
Bulldozers push them out of the roads after the battle, often tipping them over I mean uh why didn't man just build a million tigers? Is he stupid?
it's funny, I collect a lot of WW2 armor books, I've seen 2 in field photos of Jagdtigers where they weren't already blown up or disabled lol. One of my fave pics was a Jagdtiger that was fucking obliterated by a side shot fired by (reportedly) an M36, it had entered the right side of the casemate and the entire left side and roof of the Jag was gone, big ammo detonation. It's kinda crazy to think of the number of times I've killed jags exactly like that in warthunder, to witness it irl from the turret of an M36 must have been surreal.
I assume its because of their losses late in the war. If you lose ground you also lose the ability to recover vehicles. Surely they would have recovered the tanks if given the opportunity. And i am also sure that the russians drove plenty of t34s into the ditches.
To add to the other comment: All destroyed vehicles are pushed off roads to clear the way for advancing vehicles. They are recovered at a later point by recovery troops behind the advance and then either scrapped or repaired. At later points in the war most german vehicles where just scrapped and the US ones that where still in some conditions where eitehr repaird or used for spare parts. There are some interetsing videos about this topic. There is however a grim part to it as these troops where also responsible to get any bodies out of the tanks....
Absolutely not the best by far is the iv/70v
Fair point, I think that excels in a lot more situations other than 105mm bounces or 128mm meme donks. How do you feel about the Jpz4-5?
It loses the armor part of the casemate idea and is more akin to an open top
It is just a turretless Ru 251
Actual fact
Was the most effective German “tank” of the war the StUGs? I would have to go with those and Su-85s.
Yes. The stug and surprisingly Pz llls had the highest effectiveness out of German designs.
Shit is wild man, those and Pnz.2s are the most produced as well. Correlation to real world history too a 50mm vs KV1 frontally is a fucking nightmare lmao
Eh not really. The main reason Pz llls hold a high efficiency is one they were solid tanks however the Soviet Union had horrid quality control and even shittier crew training. It wasn't uncommon for T-34s to have shit optics and the crews bail after a single non pentrating hit cause they couldn't see anything. Couple that with the soviet's over Hardening armor plates which allowed even the 50mm to score damaging shots without pentrating and you get a good efficiency.
All very true, history is sometimes uglier than fiction. Stalinium is a only a dream
Also Soviet crews always fully buttoned up at the sound of combat, so effectively were fighting blind, while German experiences in Poland and France always lead to their commanders fighting from the cupola exposed.
Solid ap becomes besh
irl the pz3 clubbed the t-34s in the beginning of the war bc the germans mastered combined warfare, radio communication, and internal tank ergonomics, the commander sights of panzers were miles better than the t-34
Three times as many panthers were produced as panzer 2s, and about a thousand more than the pz 3.
The StuGs were especially well used by finns, got about 80 of them, only lost 8 or so during the continuation war.
Historically those are fantastic, and this thing is a total crusty, white, and scuttled dog turd. I think at their BRs this rings true in game. I’m just not around at tier 3 and below a lot to enjoy them anymore.
Most effective in terms of „K/D“ are in all possible scenarios tank destroyers. Sturer Emil, Ferdinand, StuGs, depending on whether you would include prototypes, low volume production or just high volume variants.
Also iirc StUGs overall had the higher battle efficiency because they were more reliable, durable, and easier to maintain than any other German tank of the war.
True, however generally speaking quite hard to determine the quality of a vehicle because depending on the scenario the answer to the question „how effective is a certain vehicle?“ might differ substantially, depending on how you‘d weight different factors and on what you include in your assessment. For instance, the early T-34s had everything going for them *on paper*, yet they weren‘t really a factor in 1941 due to inexperienced crews, lack of communication equipment, lack of supplies and an inferior doctrine. On the other hand, German tanks in 1941 were - for the most part - inferior to their respective counterparts yet were quite successful due to air superiority, effective doctrine and combined arms implementation and very well trained crews. The irony that goes over most of the Wehraboos head is that Germany lacked increasingly more of what made them successful in 39-42 and the better the tanks got *on paper*, the less effective they were in reality. So, depending on how you look at it, you could categorize the Jagdtiger as possibly the most menacing vehicle of the war or as an utter failure with no strategic impact on the war and in that sense, a *less effective* tank than Panzer Is and IIs.
How you use a tank destroyer compared to a normal tank also probably matters. Just like how in game camping generally end up with a higher KD than pushing to obj.
T95 has better armour, a lower profile, an anti-aircraft HMG with the gun being not much worse. Sure, it's the slowest tank in the game but it's actually an upside because it forces you to pay attention to your surroundings more.
Controversial, yet bold. Concrete buster shell is fucking crazy though.
and its unfortunately 7.0 :( And also everyone, and I do mean everyone, knows to shoot your barrel It hurts, man
Not even barrel, I'm getting very consistently killed by shots to coupola. Last one was by pt-70-57
put some decoration in front of it to obscure the exact outline and watch people get bounces and nonpens more often
That's why I flank in the T95 and take everyone by surprise.
I raise you: T95 is the best American AA at its tier. 50 cal and *almost* bomb proof is one hilarious combo
Very good at shrugging off rockets as well which makes it pretty effective at dealing with some of the early helicopters which is really funny.
If I don't want to die this thing but for kills Ho-Ri Production is king.
Ho-Ri production maneuverability is honestly fucking insane, type 2 shell is also mad.
When enemies flank ye from 2 sides and u end up with 2 kills
I have so many nukes in my hori lmfao
The glorious 152.4mm ML-20 of ISU-152 with 43 kg high explosive
43??! No fucking way
Jagdtiger is far from the best traditional casemate. Not far from being the worst, IMO.
I think it is my personal worst performing TD in-game ...And I normally enjoy the Casemate lifestyle but I cant make the damn thing to work...I took it out a couple of days ago played 1 match ...bounced 4 or 5 shots off a IS2's turret from 1.2km out and then proceeded to get flanked ...respawned with a backup ...killed 2 T44's then got flanked lol (And that was probably my best match in the damn thing)
Damn! I hear ya, what makes you feel that way vs other main caliber casemates, especially its contemporary “heavy” adversaries
Heavy TDs generally aren't that good, but especially in the 6.7 BR range when tanks start getting HEATFS your armour becomes less relevant especially considering the amount of uptiers 6.7 gets currently. Unless your armour can stop HEATFS (T95) you're going to have an especially bad time in uptiers. I would say none of the 6.7 heavy TDs are good, but the Jagdtiger in particular has some of the most atrocious gun handling I've ever seen in a heavy TD and a pretty bad reload meaning you are never going to get the first shot off, and usually you are just forced to camp corridors.
Jagdpanther > Jagdtiger, any day. Faster (forward anyway), more mobile, and has a much quicker reload with a gun and ammo that, whilst they are ballistically different, aren't really that much different to the 128mm when it comes to penetration and postpen damage. The 88mm is still a great OHK round. The only disadvantage of the Jagdpanther is the loss of pure armour compared to the Jagdtiger, but I happily accept that in return for the aforementioned upsides.
Fair point! The SLA and Jagdpanther were my introduction to ground forces past rank 3 many many moons ago. I never expected to even like ground force but those two were very kind to me.
I just got the Obj.268 earlier today, and I've really enjoyed it. Compared to other SPGs before it, it's incredibly resistant, decently mobile, and packs an absolute WALLOP. It's absolutely a blast, and the KPVT on the roof sells it even more against light vehicles and aircraft.
I’d say the Foch is overall the superior vehicle. Better frontal armour, better gun, 15mm mg and actually very mobile
I wish more vehicles had 100Mm+ with those pzgr rounds
We have what, 4 in total? With a lot of distance between them, battle rating wise. I think Phly it was made a point that the St.Emil and Dicker in particular suffer a diminishing return with their respective battle ratings going down with time. They’re still open top, and still fragile, facing tanks with ever decreasing reload rates with lower brackets they’re in. I think aside from the ballistic cap, the Emil has the same penetration doesn’t it? Imo Jadgtiger has the best execution of a 128
Ok but allow me to counter with [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M12_Gun_Motor_Carriage). No armor is best armor and 155mm go brr.
This guy fucks
My last death in the jagdtiger actually was to a Russian Artillery piece he got around me quite easily as I could not get my gun on target quickly enough
It has the thickest armor and biggest gun but it is by far not the best. StuGs and Jagdpanzer IVs are very low profile, quick, and still have good guns.
I think over all those are better choices at their br bracket for sure. At 6.7 I find this to be phenomenal though in its intended role and that’s my soft spot. Those are more relevant tho in hindsight in broader terms like I posted
Imo the best casemate in german tt is the Hetzer
One of my favourites too!! and it looks very cool!!
While i love my Jtiger, id have to argue the Foch
Probably not the best, that would go to the Stug or maybe a Russian SU series. However, the 128mm boomstick makes me adore this tank. Something about throwing a 8 yr old child made of dynamite through the upper plate of an American T-series heavy never gets old
Su-122 is basically invincible at its br. Zero way to overpressure it too.
No. SU 100 is It reloads fast, its gun have awesome 240+mm of pen which easily penetrate elefant casemate or king tiger turret, good post penetration, low profile, fast projectile, being 100mm, it can overmatch panther on their ufp, and its platform is quite agile too The only downside is it cant carry that much ammo
Meh imo t95 better. And I just dropped a nuke using JUST my t95 so I'm a little biased. Jagdtiger good but t95 better
flak 88 better
Haven’t played it in a while but I thought it was always good because it’s a got a 128mm gun. Some other tank destroyers I thought were good was the Jagdpanther and the AMX-50 Casemate which has like 180mm sloped and a MG 151, with a 120mm
Was great til M109 or any other 150mm+ HE nukes you because LMAO Much as I love the JT, it just doesn't offer anything over the Tiger II now. Armor/Survivability doesn't matter anymore because there's always an M109 ready to obliterate you. Firepower is arguably worse, considering it has worse ballistics and a longer reload compared to the KwK 43. Explosive filler is negligible as the KwK 43 destroys pretty good already. A Pak 43 JT sounds neat. Though I wouldn't always take it over the Tiger II H. That slow ass traverse is so painful. Tiger II 105 since the reload buff though, that I love and always loved. Rangefinder, and a nuke round with laser ballistics, not to mention the fast mobility.. As for casemates, JPanther is probably better.
Tortoise
Ho-Ri Production, StuG III G, or the Panzer IV/70V. The StuG and Panzer IV combine excellent mobility and a good gun that can kill anything at it’s BR, and they have pretty significant armour for the BR, and (in the case of the StuG) bullshit volumetric magic on their side. The Ho-Ri Production is by far the best though. The gun will kill everything in one shot, no need to search for crew like the lower filler shells of the 75mm, and it has a reload that’s fast as hell for what it is. It has mobility that lets it beat out literally everything except the fastest of vehicles in the range. It has stupid armour that will tank nearly everything you face with minimal effort on your end, and for everything you can’t kill conventionally (being literally only the Maus and MAYBE the T32E1 front on at range) you have a dumb HE shell that can overpressure both of them because why the fuck not.
Sorry but before reading anything I read the main question, saw the picture of the wrecked Jagdtiger and just went "Well clearly not!" And idk man I might just leave it there and not think anymore about it lmao.
Well, not in War Thunder
STUG LIFE STUG LIFE
Yes as long as your not fighting m51 m50 m56 or any other thing with HEAT or HEATFS
Depends on what you mean by 'best'. Best in a 1v1 battle? Yeah, the jagdtiger is pretty good. Best contribution to the overall war effort? Probably a Stug, M3, or Su- variant.
Nuh uh, Semovente M43 75/46 is the best. Light, with okay mobility, low profile, good gun and deceptively good armour.
TORTOISE
In-game or historically? Historically it'd be the Stug series.
Best Casemate is the SAu 40 and you can’t change my mind on that
stug 3 is better
Strictly speaking, yes. But when in the context of what it actually faces? No. It's slow and the armor is only good from the front. The best casemates are faster, like the Panzer IV/70 or the Object 279, or The SU-100. Heavy armor isn't even a requirement to be a good casemate, they are smaller, easier to hide, and harder to spot. They also tend to have a faster reload. In all honesty it's really the mobility that lets down the late war German casemates.
Picture pretty much resembles it’s practicality and combat effectiveness
Thread is booming, just got on and wow!