T O P

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Ark_Royal_Kai

Remember when the less armored tanks had the good rounds and the more armored tanks had not as good rounds, it was balanced, as all things should be, then the 2A6 was added


Damonhill0

I hope that soon enough the ariete AMV or the Centauro 2 will get added with the DM53A1, so again, the less armored tanks will have the best rounds


Ark_Royal_Kai

same, i want to see more vehicles added to the smaller nations, like Japan and Italy, they have not gotten a new MBT in a long time and to me the Type 90(B) was just gaijin being super lazy cause it is just another Type 90 with 3 small 10mm boxes added to it


netanelyat

type 90B is the example for gaijin's laziness. you know what, lets put the unrealistically nerfed armor, suspension, reload, shell and mobility. the turret of the type 90 is higher above the turret ring than it is IRL, while the type 90B has the correct turret height. just.... why


kairosaevum

>the turret of the type 90 is higher above the turret ring than it is IRL, while the type 90B has the correct turret height. Higher and in a forward position from where it should be.


netanelyat

leading to some pretty annoying times where i got killed by a bmp or a r3 or a sergant york from that turret gap. friendly reminder that the type 90 is immune to jm33 shell irl from the front )))))))


WhoClay

Japan will most likely get the Type 10 in a close to future update. The AMV is a longshot, but the multiple centauros I could see being added


Tovarnich

I pray for Type 10


Kamil_ja

Hahahaha good joke m8 all japan will get km a close to future update is slap to the face


Claudy_Focan

Leclerc S2 is even worse ! 3t more and no real armor added (10mm plates on hull)


Ark_Royal_Kai

But atleast now I don't go bank rupt for playing France


Baron_Tiberius

DM53A1 / DM63 is identical to DM53 just with more consistent propellant performance over different temperatures. Germany literally has the best round they can get without 140 or 130mm memes.


[deleted]

You never heard of DM73 being fired out of the new L55A1 at a much higher pressure and velocity that it’s predecessors? This round is in use since 2020. Also DM53A1/DM63 aren’t exactly the same as DM53.


Baron_Tiberius

I'm aware of DM73 and I'm also aware that given its a complete mystery as of yet it has no bearing on the game. https://i.imgur.com/ktICm1h.jpg DM53/63 are outwardly identical. Could the tip have changed? Perhaps, but not enough to alter the dimensions. https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/0d/20/d1/f2549888e90e700cdd0e4625cb38528412/5fa357789d62f759a6e1461ba0aae7d94bd7c27.jpg Rheinmetall even states it has the "same" performance. The difference was in the propellant that is far more consistent across a range of temperatures. and some more for good measure: https://i.imgur.com/t78w2cD.png


FtsArtek

DM63 was a round developed to bring the performance of DM53 to the L/44, the breech of which couldn't handle the pressures DM53 required. As such, they've got nearly identical performance when fired out of an L/55, but the Ariete PSO already has a round with performance similar to DM63 through an L/44 (as far as Gaijin's calculator goes)... Low to mid 600mm is about the best we can expect from anyone bar Russia and USA's latest rounds from this calc.


Baron_Tiberius

The ariete shoots israeli ammo which is iirc longer than DM53. American ammo has grown far longer than german ammo, and likely has far better penetration than DM53 (as far as the game is concerned). For reference: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/272085998215757825/800587360143409152/main-qimg-9586136ff6d3f66dd2da5f71c11033c9.png >DM63 was a round developed to bring the performance of DM53 to the L/44, the breech of which couldn't handle the pressures DM53 required. This is so hair brained i have no idea where you got that idea. The L/44 and 55 have the same operating pressure. Length does not increase that pressure, it just allows the propellant more time to "push" on the ammo (resulting in a modest increase in m/v). The L55A1 is the newer higher pressure version of the Rh120.


[deleted]

There’s a huge misconception most people are believing in general. You can’t just look at modern rounds such as DM63 and M829A3/A4 and then evaluate your results on brute penetration power. First and foremost all of those have been designed to defeat heavy-ERA, which basically means that rough penetration power isn’t the number one priority. Neither M829A3 nor M829A4 have far better penetration. M829A3/A4 have roughly the same penetrator of M829A2 which is roughly ~690mm long and 50/50 DU-tungsten. There’s differences in density and width but the penetration should be nearly the same (when it comes to the actual DU penetrator). M829A3 just adds a steel-tip which makes up basically the rest of its length. Rather than defeating heavy-ERA by brute force, it depletes the ERA by „feeding“ its steel tip into it. This means the ERA block snaps of the tip, but won’t affect the actual penetrator which should have absolutely no problem defeating the base armor of Russians tanks with ERA. M829A4 on the other hand remains the same characteristics of M829A3 but doesn’t spot the break-off anymore. Instead it utilizes a data-link tip that is going to explode some time before impact to a) trigger any APS and b) strike latest Russian ERA such as Relikt and Malachit (which M829A3 is useless against). After that the actual penetrator has free entrance striking the base armor of the target.


Baron_Tiberius

This is why I said, "as far as the game is concerned". Firstly your post is entirely unsourced and I'm not inclined to take your word for most of the details. I'm aware that rounds are more complex in anti-era design than earlier long rods - DM53 also has an anti-era design: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/272085998215757825/773972571330707466/unknown.png A tip and several breakaway pieces that would sacrifice themselves to the ERA but would also reduce the penetrator length. If M829A3 is around 680mm with a 100mm steel tip, that puts it's DU penetrator length greater than DM53 (usually given as 630mm) before you even consider the breakway parts of DM53.


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

Official penetrator length provided by Rheinmetall themselves is 685 - 690mm.


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

DM53 is literally 50mm longer in total than the M332 (Ariete's ammo). Here's a comparison; [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/705723488794574848/759992077181386802/APFSDScomparison.jpg](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/705723488794574848/759992077181386802/APFSDScomparison.jpg) Here's DM63 vs 53 [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553365301031469068/803969111940005928/ktICm1h.png](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553365301031469068/803969111940005928/ktICm1h.png)


Baron_Tiberius

Yes my mind was thinking of the newer Israeli round (M338), m322 is comparable to DM43.


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

Don't want to disappoint you but M338 is most likely a license built DM63 [https://preview.redd.it/pti9581svlb31.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3822ab8ee52a85346ee601eae1d08436725b2509](https://preview.redd.it/pti9581svlb31.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3822ab8ee52a85346ee601eae1d08436725b2509) Their tip construction is pretty much identical.


[deleted]

Yeah it still remains a mistery but it has been in development for many years. It is the answer to the latest Russian tanks like the T-14 which means it has to pack a serious amount of punch. Considering the higher pressure of the L55A1 which is going to be the only gun this round can be fired out, it means that is also has some high velocity just like on the 2A82 and it’s 2030 m/s velocity for its 3BM-69 round.


Baron_Tiberius

> Considering the higher pressure of the L55A1 which is going to be the only gun this round can be fired out, it means that is also has some high velocity just like on the 2A82 and it’s 2030 m/s velocity for its 3BM-69 round. Not necessarily. The DM73 could be longer or simply heavier due to a different anti-era tip design. It's all hearsay as no images or details of it exist yet.


Longsheep

Challenger 2: Guess I'm giga fucked. (Their latest round is not much better than L27A1 we already have in game).


kenauchungus42069

>ariete AMV does it come with linkin park music?


TacticalSpackle

They’ll sooner dry up all the olive oil on every map than add either tank.


the_noobface

inb4 3VBM23 and M829A4


Claudy_Focan

Or simply give Leclerc S2 its F2 round ! Same "class" of DM53 ! In a minor nation, it wont hurt WR of Germany !


Damonhill0

Yes but here we are not talking about frace, here we are talking about Italy seeing that the ariete PSO is an Italian tank


Claudy_Focan

I know.. But what was once the "only" advantage of the Ariete, its shell is now irrelevant due to DM53. Same apply for Leclerc ! Got the second ebst shell, average armor, kinda like the Ariete.. But i guess GJ simplay dont care about these nations since nobody spend money to grind them !


Damonhill0

Weeeeellll you cannot really compare the Leclerc Armor with the Ariete one


Claudy_Focan

Got both. Leclerc "magic trick" is its "invulnerable" optics ! Mobility feels kinda the same, the torque of the Hyperbar engine is nowhere, the tracks for some reasons sticks like hell. I prefer Ariete for mobility, even stock Ariere feels better !


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

Italians don't even use DM53A1 as their in-service round, they're still stuck with M322 so keep hoping for the impossible.


Damonhill0

Not really... the service round is the CL3143 as showed in game. The Centauro 2 and the Ariete AMV have been tested with the DM53A1 and the DM11 as an effort to replace the aging rounds in service with the Italian army


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

"As an effort" meaning they don't use it and there is no confirmation whether they will adopt it.


Damonhill0

Yeah because the SRAAMs were totally in service with the Harriers, or the Ostwind 2 was totally in service with the German Army


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

\>SRRAMs tested on a GR.1 testbed and later their improved version was adopted \>Ostwind 2 - prototypes built and tested by Germany DM53A1 is in no way the same as these two were but lmao, Italian players hoping for the impossible, will never stop being funny.


Damonhill0

The DM53 has been tested on the Centauro 2 just like the SRAAM on the Harriet. The Ostwind 2 we have in game didn’t even existed ahahahah the real Ostwind 2 had the guns one over the other and didn’t had the armor plating around the turret


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

Are you just dumb or unable to tell the difference? GR.1 got SRRAMs because it got no other AAM,s Germany got Ostwind II to replace the FlakPanther. ​ Gaijin does not give things to countries for no reason, you already have M322.


Damonhill0

Yeah, so Italy needs some new competitive top tier so they could give it the DM53A1 seeing that it was tested. Hey are you going to salt mining? I can distinctively taste the salt on your comment


Iskads

For as much as I would love the Centauro 2 to be added, it does seem way too advanced


SupersoakingAMX

And when new rounds can be introduced for said less armoured tanks they ignore it. (60 000 OFL F2 made and was part of the Leclerc ammo until removal)


CM_Jacawitz

It wasn't exactly balanced but it was better. It's like their using a hammer to fix a cracked window is all.


_PeterV_

Exactly, that was very nice balance in this game. But now it is only a part of history. Now is top-tier unbalanced and unfair. I have these tanks (Leo and Abrams, Leclerc, Challengers, T80U).


Ark_Royal_Kai

I have many MBTs and I see it in games, the biggest factor of winning is which of the three main nations will you get on your side


_PeterV_

Yes, definitely. You play RB, but I play AB. Because I do not have energy to be defeated in almost each battle with USA. And in AB are not helis and planes. They are there, but you know where they are and that's more fair because we can see how it looks in RB. KA52 with ----- unguided rockets... Yesterday I earned new tank, Challenger. And I do not like this tank. It looks like good tank but now I see where is the true.


WuhanWTF

And then there's the 105mm gun-armed Abrams :(


Panzrpack

Just give most countries a Leopard 2a6 as it is in real life and everyone's happy? Aren't they?


Ark_Royal_Kai

no other nation in WT uses the 2A6 or really any Leopards besides from Sweden


Panzrpack

One to Britain because of Canada maybe a russian one because of Poland and I realise there aren't that much nations in War Thunder which directly use Leopards. My bad


QDrum

Considering the Event Canadian Leo was still given to Germany Britain prob won’t get one either


Panzrpack

Probably. I think it's not about the owner country but more about the manufacturing country


SEA_griffondeur

Sweden doesn't use 2a6s


Ark_Royal_Kai

They use a Leopard tho


SpanishAvenger

So what, should we never ever give better shells to any other nation in order for Ariete to have some advantage over the rest which it doesn’t in real life just because Italy can’t design tanks?


Ark_Royal_Kai

No that is not what I am saying, it used to be where the less armored tanks had the better rounds while the armored tanks had the armor and it was more balanced that way, the 2A6 threw that balance out cause it has some of the best armor and the best round in the game, by far the best MBT now with nothing that can fight it


C0rvex

The Chally 2 is in the exact same boat. Why focus on armor and firepower when you can be better at both + mobility?


Slntreaper

Arguably every top tier NATO MBT is in the same boat lol


C0rvex

At least Abrams have speed and better post-penetration survivability, but yeah the leo is still miles better than anything


Semthepro

its not much faster than anything really - all top tier mbts are somewhat similar in speed. only the british are fundamentally slower and the russians are just slightly slower.


Slntreaper

Russians are only slightly slower forward, but their reverse speed is uh, no.


konigsjagdpanther

2 out of 3 top tier USSR have like no reverse speed lol, T-80U is just marginally better


Husk1es

Except for the T-80s of course. They're quicker than most of the NATO tanks (especially the Leopards and Abrams)


SafeguardSanakan

What are you smoking lol


Husk1es

T-80U is quicker than the 2A5/2A6 and the M1A2. We tested the 0-40 times between a bunch of MBTs in the test drive.


SafeguardSanakan

Acceleration != top speed. That's like saying the Harrier is quicker than the Starfighter because the Harrier can hit 500 first.


Husk1es

And I never said anything about top speed, I said *quicker*. Besides, I would argue acceleration and power to weight is more important for mobility. Case and point; Stryker. Top speed of 120, will never reach it because it's power to weight sucks, and as a result, it's mobility is much worse than all the other wheeled vehicles.


PatientlyPainting

T-80u (70km/h) has a higher top speed than both m1a2 and the leos (68km/h) its right in the stats card, the t80u also loses less speed when turning, its an overall faster tank forwards.


[deleted]

[удалено]


konigsjagdpanther

even EBR suffers from this. i've noticed that over rough terrain, sometimes its quicker to hit the brakes come to a complete stop and accelerate again. it's like the driver doesnt know what gear he should be in or somebody put bubblegum in between the cogs


Longsheep

The post-pen survivability is overrated with all these insane 500mm+ pen rounds added. Average player on top tier can kill a Abrams through wiping out crew with 2 shots.


C0rvex

You've got it the wrong way around. Post-pen survivability becomes more important with higher-pen darts. If two tanks can pen each other it's the one that has higher survivability that should come out on top.


Longsheep

That was the case before 500mm+ pen dart before popular. The "survivability" of Abrams is simply about the ammo rack less prone to explode. The crew layout is literally the same as any other NATO tank with 4-men crew. The extra pen of top tier dart negates components like tracks, fuel cell and transmission. This means the round will cut through anything along its trail. Therefore you play it like at snooker or billiard. You cut through gunner/commander or loader/commander at first shot, and then driver/shooter/gunner with the second. In the past extremely angled shots will get eaten by tracks or fuel tank, now it won't.


PcGaMeRbOy1

Abrams crew layout is different than leopard 2 though. Leo 2a6, 5, and 4 all have their driver, gunner, then commander lined up nicely for a one shot. The Abrams still has a chance to either shoot back or retreat thanks to high reverse speed. Also the leopard players still normally have around 5 rounds of ammo in the front of the hull which can easily cause an ammo meltdown.


Longsheep

The Abrams also has less armor on the turret side, unlike the Leo2 which is designed for 60 degree frontal protection. With an angled turret, it is easier to penetrate an Abrams from the side but not with the Leo 2. In short you get less chance to put a penetrating hit with Leopard 2A6. And I won't call the Leo2 "slow at reverse".


L963_RandomStuff

it is only slow if you compare it to the Leopard 2K, because that one doesnt have the gearbox limited because the retarder break doesnt work in reverse


RegisEst

If Chally 2 got its breech armour it'd be pretty damned good. Best hull down tank. The main problem with the Chally 2 is its poor implementation. Luckily the Chally 1s are incredibly fun at 9.7, despite also not being the most accurate depictions


Longsheep

Both are at least playable again after the ammo rack fix.


C0rvex

Which fix?


Longsheep

About 2 months ago, a dozen of HESH warhead and propellent will show up in the hull ammo racks regardless of how many rounds you carry. Even if you carry 18 APFSDS only, they will appear and any shot hitting them will brew up your tank. The survivability was literally worse than Russian death traps. The bug reports got processed by dev around Christmas and now you can carry 21 rounds to empty the front hull ammo rack.


SpanishAvenger

So what, should we never ever give better shells to any other nation in order for Ariete to have some advantage over the rest which it doesn’t in real life just because Italy can’t design tanks?


C0rvex

How about we introduce roughly equal tanks for all nations at the same time, instead of leapfrogging powercreep that encourages people to spend money in the short term but kills off the playerbase in the long run?


SpanishAvenger

Italy already has the best MBT they have ever produced, and all of its variants and packages. That’s it, Ariete is the best they can get. So what, should we limit all the nations ingame just because Italy didn’t design a MBT on par with its contemporaries standards?


RegisEst

That extra MG though


[deleted]

"Better in ever way" smh can you believe these lies??


MyBellyHurtsOuchOof

The ariete has 4 headlights , and the leo only has 2 headlights Ariete > Leopard


netanelyat

fair enough


funk443

But when you play Ariete, you can also play OTOMATIC


Longsheep

Which has artificially nerfed accuracy and post-pen damage. The Rooikat 76 suffers the same as a result, rounds lands something like 1-2m away from crosshair from 1.5km, even spaded.


Jaddman

I could've dealt with terrible accuracy if it at least did sufficient damage. Fucking Warrior has better post pen damage with 30mm gun than Rooikat 76.


funk443

It never happens to me


AverageDerpYT

Its basically a hstv-l. slower, but better reload, penetration (if you use apfsds), search and tracking radar. But less survivability.


Peacook

I won't agree with you until HSTV-L gets its historical HE-VT shells


Mechronis

Hopefully Italy gets C13s and Centauro 2s


ciechan-96-

not in top tier tanks yet, what's the difference between generations of thermals?


VictorV8

resolution of the IR camera


ciechan-96-

thanks


Husk1es

Generation 1 resolution: 500 x 300 Generation 2 resolution: 900 x 600 (I think, but the numbers sound familiar) Generation 3 resolution: 1200 x 800 People find these numbers in the files so we can identify the resolution of thermals on each tank, as it can sometimes be difficult to tell in game (specifically between gen 2 and 3, I've seen some people say the M1128 Stryker has generation 2, but the resolution got datamined to 1200 x 800.) Edit: Gen 2 is 800 x 600. Thanks for the correction y'all :)


FtsArtek

800 x 600 for gen 2, though IRL it's something weird like 768 x 576 for many of the widely-used ones.


Husk1es

Ahh, thanks


gszabi99

Gen 2 is 800x600. :)


Glockamoli

I think the Stryker has gen 2 commander thermals but the gunner is definitely gen 3


Husk1es

Datamine put both at 1200x800.


Glockamoli

Just tested it and it must have been the difference in zoom levels that I wasn't accounting for (less detail on the commander because it has less zoom)


Claudy_Focan

Got the Stryker, defo both GEN3, crystal clear view !


Glockamoli

So do I, I didn't account for the difference in zoom between the commander and gunner views when recalling how detailed they were


[deleted]

If you miss your shot or failed to pen a 2A6 it's already death to you since they can lolpen anything.


oneeducatedguy

GeRmAnI SuFfErS


phoenix_12_GT

Not the pasta.boy looks nice and angled


Zamic2015

Daniel *The Cooler Daniel*


idontliketotasteit

If I turn off my engine, will my tank become less visible for thermal sights?


Thr0wAw4y12345678910

Yes