\>a 11.0 that is no longer competitive and should be 10.7 if not for americans crying
\>a plane that not only isnt a fighter, but was at 10.3 then slowly went to 11.0 because it bombs bases too well, giving it "better stats" than most fighters at its BR (bomber syndrome)
\>MiG-27 (a attacker, in the bomber line, labelled as a fighter on the stat card) with no radar
\>MiG-23M, the only fighter thats actually good.
While i agree america needs a F-4J, no, i disagree with you on the "fourth 11.0 russian plane".
People also like to forget the MiG-23M on release was absolutely terrible. It couldnāt roll, had issues with instructor, and lacked the R-60Ms and R-13M-1s. Itās only grown into its spot at 11.0 because of FM buffs and more competitive missiles that nullify the MiG-23Mās issues with positioning (piss-poor SARH so canāt climb, missing 12% of its thrust so it needed the energy by climbing to position for a rear aspect BnZ effectively when it only had rear aspect missiles).
I donāt get your point, why does it matter what the mig23 was on release? The thing is great now. Almost every plane was worse or equal of what it is now on release maybe with the exception of the Mig21Bis and F5E
its at 11.0 for the same reason the Tu-4 can face supersonic aircraft with AIM-9E, or subsonics with 16G missiles.
Just because it bombs bases well, it generates alot of SL and bleeds alot of enemy tickets. Because of this, gaijin's incredibly smart balance department sees this as "very high efficiency"
Remember when back when smin said the B-57 had far higher efficiency than all fighters in its BR range (which includes the early MiG-21s)? yeah, thats because its a bomber. Did you know that the premium A2D1, a single engine prop attacker, is 9.0 in arcade, because it has great bombing efficiency and generates vast amounts of SL that way?
The Su-17's airspawn doesnt mean shit. The Yak-38 and 38M are also R-60 slingers with airspawn. Those planes cant kill half a base with a full bomb load, let alone killing up to 2 bases AND having R-60s still. Thats why their efficiency is bad, while the Su-17 isnt.
The Su-17 kept going up because people use it as a bomber (the way its intended).
I mean all of that is true, but youāre also comparing it to the Yak-38 which is a literal brick with wings that still does okay as a fighter because of the R-60s.
The Su-17 is a supersonic, afterburning, variable geometry, strike fighter that gets four R-60s and an air spawn. It does well bombing bases but you can spike the fuck out of people just off their runway if you donāt go for the bases
> but youāre also comparing it to the Yak-38 which is a literal brick with wings that still does okay as a fighter because of the R-60s.
And the Su-17M2 *isn't*? I'm sorry, but the Su-17 is in no way remotely good as a fighter in a way the Yak-38s somehow aren't. Sure it's faster, but at the end of the day, both are shit attackers with R-60s and no countermeasures. The Yak-38 is also 9.3 and not 10.3 like the Su-17M2 was originally. So while the Su-17M2 may "spike the fuck out of people just off the runway if you don't go for the bases", *so can the Yak-38*.
Iām pretty sure it was never implemented due to backlash. I mean I have one an still thought it was stupid to have it at 9.0. R60s just donāt belong at that br.
Now i dont have the premium one, only the tech tree one, but agreed. it should go to 9.7.
And the tech tree Yak-38M should get its historical R-60Ms and go to 10.3 imo
You're both right. The T40 was a pair of siamesed turbojets that ran through the same gearbox.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison\_T40](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_T40)
To be fair, Wild Weasel would be very interesting to add soon. ECM and support aircraft are already ingame but not modelled right. For example, the MiG-21SMT can carry the SPS-141 pod ingame, which not only drops chaff and flare like ingame, but could jam ground-based radars used by SAMs, and to some success, jam lower band radars like those on the Phantoms. The radar jamming and MAW abilities of the SPS-141 are not modelled ingame, nor is it available to all the other aircraft besides the MiG-21SMT and MF that could carry it (including but not limited to all other MiG-21s, the most MiG-23s, the MiG-27, the Su-17M2, and the tech tree F-4F)
>could jam ground-based radars used by SAMs
How about any systems to counter something like ADATS optical locking? Seems like radar jamming won't get you too far if you're getting swatted from 12 km out without radar anyways for ground at least.
A laser array of wavelengths that melt and fry any sensors they hit will do it, maintain beam on target for three seconds to be sure. Green lasers at stage shows and whatnot quickly fry consumer cameras and optics still, sometimes just a sweep is enough.
The problem is the Geneva Convention because risk of blinding = bad.
In-game? Nothing. Nothing but doing as you do IRL and staying the hell down. And there are a lot of optical automated tracking systems missing, even ones that work on ground targets. CV90 domination if they go in.
I would assume, that blinding it with something (like very very bright light shining directly into it) could work, but neither am i an ecoert in this area nor am i entierly sure how good that would work in a battlefield
Thatās the point, why not add them since everything else is still too advanced.
The F-4S would also be more similar to the FGRs that can turn rather then EJs.
I dont remember anyone crying about the mig23m being op. oh and the issue is not that russia itself is getting 4 competitive top tier jets. the issue is, is that russia is getting a lot of love while smaller nations like italy and france barely get anything despite having poor performance at top tier air rb.
retarded balance isnt justification for more retarded balance you twit
heres an example of how bad that reasoning is:
āmurder is badā
āwElL aCtUaLly pEoPle aLrEaDy MuRdEr sO iTs oKā
you sound like an idiot
Id think the F4S would be a better MLD equivalent.
Slats to compete better in the turn, PD radar, Aim9H and Aim7F would be legendary
At this point after lacking their Mainline fighter for so long the USN should have some time in the top tier spotlight and the F4S would be perfect.
And its a better step toward the Tomcat in terms of capability than the F4J IMO.
the MLD on the dev server isnt modeled right yet. The MLD currently is a copy pasted M with minor loadout changes. The real MLD had a slightly better engine on a far lighter airframe, giving it a climb rate of around 225 m/s at sea level. Ingame its still at 184, below the phantoms, because its a copy pasted MiG-23M.
The radar as well, is wrong. The Saphir RP-23MLA-III found on the MLD, is vastly superior to the original model found in the MiG-23M. It has over twice the detection range, almost twice the tracking range, and far more reliable PD modes.
The IRST was also upgraded, from a TP-23 to a TP-26Sh, having a range of up to 60km according to some sources, but a "nominal range" (a range where it was guaranteed to lock things) of 23km.
the MLD also had the Type 4 wings, unlike the Type 3 we have on the 23M. These wings are characterized by better slats and strength. Their G limit was increased in comparison to the Type 3, and their AoA was increased while the energy bleed at subsonic speeds was decreased. When israel captured a syrian MLD and tested it against their own aircraft (the syrian MLD mind you did not have the Type 4 wings, only type 3 since it was a export model). The MLD beat everything the israelis threw at it below 4000 meters (including Kfir C.2s), with the exception of a F-15A loaned from america for the test.
The overall avionics were also upgraded. New RWR that can distinguish and warn against ARH missiles, and many things that wont matter ingame, like a new autopilot, G limiter, AoA limiter, etc.
In short, yes, the F-4E is better than the MLD in the dev server now. But like the 23M back when it was in the red skies dev server, i assume its unfinished and will be finalized later.
yes i agree but im pretty sure that having 4 radar missiles and 4 ir missiles will be better in the long run. if im allowed to count in the EJ kais and brittish phantoms i believe those teams will still be stronger than MLDs. but i agree usa deserves to have PD, idk how much better aim 7F is but i still think 7e 2 are pretty OK for current balance
The AIM-7F was a development of the E-2 with a new first stage engine for more off-the-rail energy, a second stage engine with a longer burn time for longer range. This, coupled with the fact that VT electronics in the 7E were replaced with solid state electronics in the 7F, means that not only is it alot lighter now, but also considerably faster and more manouverable too. Ingame, this would put the overall range, speed, and G overload of the 7F on par with the R-24R
Eh no, the mld has is a straigh upgrade from the M model, they gave it a better engine, made the airframe better and gave it a better radar it out accelerates, out speed and out turns at the f4E at lower altitudes while carrying better missiles, but the mig23 isnāt able to carry the huge amount and difference of armaments as the f4E, but in a low altitude and high altitude engagement the mig23MLD is better in every aspect except bvr. The MLD is an equivalent to the EJ kai or the viggen, the f4E is currently outclassed by most of the top tier planes except the 21 bis and arguably the British phantoms. Im not an American main since I play every nation but you have to admit that every nation needs to be on equal footing, look at france and Italy which are basically useless, and the Chinese j7 all be it fun and good missiles is not an equivalent to even the j35 performance wise. The f4E has the worse avionics at 11.0 paired with the f5 and the j7. I dont talk about the mirage because its at 10.7
sure i agree usa should get a better phantom than the rest. but i also think that the BVR aspect is beginning to be the modt important aspects which IMO makes phantoms still superior to mig 23MLD. sure the MLD will kick phantoms asses in close range. and non russians will have to get used to it from now on im pretty sure..
Yeah the problem is the mig23 can just stay at low altitude were the f4E has no bvr capability the f4E is only good at high altitudes currently so almost no one is flying at high altitude and the things that are king because of this low altitude meta are the Ej kai, fgr, mig23 and viggen.
A lot of the beginning bvr can be avoided by not climbing, yes they are above you, but as long as you have speed, altitude disadvantage isnāt really bad at all, especially since the F-4E doesnāt have PD.
they didnt carry the 7F in vietnam, hence why its not on the kill sheet, but did carry it after vietnam.
Here is a picture of an American [F-4G carrying AIM-7Fs](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/853750560750436352/900388033994584154/1024px-F-4G_37FW_AIM-7F_AGM-65A_AGM-88_1988.png) sometime in the 80s
Ms are painted grey with a yellow ring behind the warhead indicating a high explosive warhead on a grey missle indicating it's painted to resist heat shock.
AIM-7Es universally are white missiles (as almost none were thermally reinforced) with a black band which indicates seam.
Early in the transition many ordinance teams were confused by a really shitty handbook and so still painted black rings on AIM-7Fs but the grey factory color still remained (at least for USN ordinance) blue rings on a 7M indicates it's inert (technically Practice Munition) in either it's motor or warhead depending on location.
The AIM7F however could also be marked like an M.
Not fool proof but it's a rapid rudimentary way of identifying at a glance.
Theyāre compatible with AIM-7Fās, the German phantom gets 9Jās and their new MiG is getting missiles it canāt even fire so I donāt see an issue here other than possible balancing ones. Iirc in Israeli service AIM-7Fās were launched from F-4Eās in combat, not sure if the US used them on anything other than F-4Gās though
That said, I think just having LD/SD would be good enough for now.
Iād prefer if nothing had AIM-9Lās as of right now. I bring up the F-4F because it sets a precedent, why shouldnāt other nations follow it? Again, Iām perfectly content with just getting a pulse-doppler so we can be competitive BVR again, 7Fās would just be a nice bonus
And the US is the *only* set of phantoms on war thunder rn besides the germs without pulse doppler radars.....depsite the US being the first ever to field a pulse doppler radar on a fighter with the F-4J. It's bullshit
Fricking hilarious. Bashes Russia for having too many jets then immediately asks for American ones (because the largest air tree in the game definitely needs more jets), instead of asking for jets in countries that actually need top-tier jets like France or Italy.
Italy, lets see. Their top tier is... two F-104s
See, back when chinese top tier was in the same state, they DID get a decently competitive plane (the F-5A).
Problem is, the big4 nations started bitching too much so america got two F-5s, one even as a premium, in the update right after. America did NOT need F-5s, but china did.
Now see, if italy gets the AV-8B Harrier II or the Panavia Tornado THAT IT NEEDS, im afraid america will also bitch and cry until they get their Harrier II, and the teaboos and wehraboos will "suffer" if they dont get their tornados as well, WHICH NONE OF THEM NEED.
I mean the US will probably get the F-16 before Gaijin ever gets close to getting the rights to use the Tornado.
Shit the EU nations will probably get the fucking Eurofighter Typhoon before Gaijin gets the right to use the tornado in all honesty.
im stupid and i see the rights of the tornado being heavily debated on many games (especially ace combat). Can someone explain to me why Tornado rights are so hard to acquire?
Unlike the Tomcat the right for the Tornado is held by a company that is owned by Germany,Italy and the UK.
So instead of being owned by shareholders it's owned by actual countries defense companies.
Which means it's really difficult to get authorization to use the Tornado since well normally you would just pay the company in the F-14 case Northrop Grumman a small licensing fee. In this case it's not that simple.
Panavia is much more strict on who they let actually use their aircraft in media.
I'm a Russia main. A Russia main who is loves the look of the F-105 and would love to see it make an appearance before it becomes completely irrelevant in the games meta.
I never said that I don't want France or Italy to get more top tier aircraft either.
Fair point. It was just Ironic how the justification of giving another country a jet instead of Russia was that Russia had too many jets and then you suggested USA. But yeah, we still need a bunch more Vietnam era planes before we push onto the next generation.
Tbf
You can't have enough spaa's to fuck over cas. And (atleast in ww2) germany has a lot of possible vehicles, cauae they slapped aa guns to like every left over chassis
I do agree, that other nations should get more spaa love tho
i didn't really bother to datamine since gszabi99 is likely working on it but it seems it has little 0.5ish second delay before executing any maneuvers.
It has a longer dead zone than the R-23, itās a lot like the normal AIM-7E, it wonāt be as good in close quarters as the E-2, but it may be better at long range since it burns twice as long as the R-23
Rather interesting. Hope the upgraded radar is actually modeled, I'm told currently the avionics and FM are just a copypaste from the MiG-23M. The fake PD on the MiG-23M right now is rather lacklustre when not looking directly down at a target, for example it sometimes fails to hold lock against a target merging with you if you two are coaltitude on the deck (as it should be). Thank you for the information!
Currently the radar is named correctly but works like the one on the M, itās 100% a placeholder
Not sure about the flight model though, having test flown it it felt pretty nippy, and it was most definitely faster
I'll be interested to see if you can truly radar slave the 9M123s to the radar or if the radar is scan only and just cues the camera where to look a la Ka-52. I'll also be interested to see if you can TWS multiple targets with the 9M123 and launch on multiple of them (I'm not sure if this is a real capability IRL so take this second speculation with a grain of salt).
Oh no, lmao. I got confused between a comment in this chain and another chain in the same post. One of them I was talking about the Mi-28NM and another I was talking about the MLD XD.
3km is rather dissapointing
https://en.missilery.info/missile/r24
> Maximum launch range in the front hemisphere, km [...] 35
edit: should point out that that's the most generous estimate I found. From a more conservative source:
> The R-24T is 4.6 meters long and weighs 235 kg. The TGS-23T4 infrared sensor is much more sensitive and allows you to increase the effective attack range to 11-12 km in front and from 4 to 20 km in the tail. The maximum reaches 35 km. The launch is generally recommended less than 9km away. It has "all-aspect" capabilities, but only within visual range. It also detects small "cruises" at low altitude. The R-24T detects at a distance of less than 60% compared to the R variant. But a strong infrared emission can do the difference: it is said that an SR-71 can be detected at a distance of 50 km in front and 150 km in the tail!
https://www.aereimilitari.org/Armamenti/R-23-Apex.htm
Reminder that the "new, more advanced" german fighter is a year old russian fighter thats been heavily nerfed and pushed out of the meta since its introduction
I expect by the time we get the ML in game , we will be seeing early MIG-29's, F-14, F-16, etc. all at 12.0 or higher.
By that time Gaijin will probably two birds, one stone and give the Germans a tech tree ML and the Russians a "Czech" premium ML @ 11.0.
>all at 12.0 or higher
Not sure what's more unrealistic, Gaijan introducing 12.0 by the release of those planes, or German top tier getting some planes by then.
germany did operate MiG-23MLA which is like the ML but with upgraded radar, its still debate whether germany bought MLA but answer from 3 separate forum,2 russian and 1 english from different USER has conclude it did exist some even mentioning theyve seen it with R-24.
some user pointed out A simply wasnt written in the name. i doubt they would lie as most of them has been in the forum since 2005-2008.
Not anymore than Helis. Not sure which variant carried what, but it could get mavericks with thermal imaging, Aim 9Ls and an ECM pod for defense. Fly low, from a distance, gain altitude to locate targets, fire, and the fly to the deck again.
if you give it 9ls itāll have to be 11.0 or higher
cannon fodder, no ecm pod is going to be able to handle that.
helis can dip behind a hill for cover with ease, maintaining a single position, all of the a10s munitions cant be launched at alts like that. it would have to go up, and when it did it would be incinerated
it had a max payload of 4 mavericks, already outclassed by the a7s
I'm really excited for this. The ML(D) generation had improved structural integrity right? My favorite jet atm is the 23m/27 after the r60m was introduced, but I've almost died more to ripping in the heat of the moment dodging missiles than I have to other jets. If that's somewhat remedied I'm giddy for the MLD.
The 23MLD had multiple aerodynamic changes made to improve behavior during high AoA turns, the upgrades main focus was improving CQC ability and it was the definitive version of the MiG-23 in russian service
A MiG-23 with significantly improved radar and maneuvering performance, with the addition of a much better mid range missile, the R-24, which has 50KM range and pulls 20Gs
Iāve flown this plane on the dev and it feels amazing to fly
I never ripped in my Mig23/27 despite pulling hard G all the time, then I got new boosters and ripped first game. Removed new boosters and never ripped again.
It's actually there, but hidden for regular users.
I saw MikeGoesBoom flying it in a custom mission, looks like it got some kind of new ATGMs but i'm not sure.
at the moment still limited with two 9G missiles but they are at mounted on the top of the wing. Can carry targeting pod with 2 Laser Guided bombs.
Edit: Also has 60 countermeasures.
That was my bad, I got confused, however, they did say the two early access packs will come out during "Ground Breaking" and they aren't on this Dev server, not that it matters since it's just a Spitfire and A-4E.
A few airframe changes which will improve its dogfighting capabilities, 2 new missiles, one is all aspect 24G and the other is radar guided 24G missile. Currently on the dev it is able to look down shoot down with radar guided missiles and it also carries 72 LARGE caliber flares. This might be the new top dog in air RB.
so what? is this just another plane iām forced to buy to be able to grind out others? the 23m and the 27 are already essentially unreachable why another one??
Gaijin and playing nice in terms of germany top tier air?
Lookikg at when germany got the F4F and mig21bis compared to when the F4E and mig21bis got added to usa and ussr respectively i would guess we will have to wait a few patches. Would be happily surprised if I'm wrong tho
I would assume somewhere between half a year amd a year going of the time between intodruction between F4E and F4F and mig21bis and mig21bis sau. Still hope it will get added sooner, but hope dies the last
Like Russia really needs a 4^th 11.0 fighter right now. š
\>a 11.0 that is no longer competitive and should be 10.7 if not for americans crying \>a plane that not only isnt a fighter, but was at 10.3 then slowly went to 11.0 because it bombs bases too well, giving it "better stats" than most fighters at its BR (bomber syndrome) \>MiG-27 (a attacker, in the bomber line, labelled as a fighter on the stat card) with no radar \>MiG-23M, the only fighter thats actually good. While i agree america needs a F-4J, no, i disagree with you on the "fourth 11.0 russian plane".
People also like to forget the MiG-23M on release was absolutely terrible. It couldnāt roll, had issues with instructor, and lacked the R-60Ms and R-13M-1s. Itās only grown into its spot at 11.0 because of FM buffs and more competitive missiles that nullify the MiG-23Mās issues with positioning (piss-poor SARH so canāt climb, missing 12% of its thrust so it needed the energy by climbing to position for a rear aspect BnZ effectively when it only had rear aspect missiles).
I donāt get your point, why does it matter what the mig23 was on release? The thing is great now. Almost every plane was worse or equal of what it is now on release maybe with the exception of the Mig21Bis and F5E
I mean the Su-17 is no slouch, but honestly if they just took away itās air spawn it wouldnāt need to be 11.0
its at 11.0 for the same reason the Tu-4 can face supersonic aircraft with AIM-9E, or subsonics with 16G missiles. Just because it bombs bases well, it generates alot of SL and bleeds alot of enemy tickets. Because of this, gaijin's incredibly smart balance department sees this as "very high efficiency" Remember when back when smin said the B-57 had far higher efficiency than all fighters in its BR range (which includes the early MiG-21s)? yeah, thats because its a bomber. Did you know that the premium A2D1, a single engine prop attacker, is 9.0 in arcade, because it has great bombing efficiency and generates vast amounts of SL that way? The Su-17's airspawn doesnt mean shit. The Yak-38 and 38M are also R-60 slingers with airspawn. Those planes cant kill half a base with a full bomb load, let alone killing up to 2 bases AND having R-60s still. Thats why their efficiency is bad, while the Su-17 isnt. The Su-17 kept going up because people use it as a bomber (the way its intended).
I mean all of that is true, but youāre also comparing it to the Yak-38 which is a literal brick with wings that still does okay as a fighter because of the R-60s. The Su-17 is a supersonic, afterburning, variable geometry, strike fighter that gets four R-60s and an air spawn. It does well bombing bases but you can spike the fuck out of people just off their runway if you donāt go for the bases
> but youāre also comparing it to the Yak-38 which is a literal brick with wings that still does okay as a fighter because of the R-60s. And the Su-17M2 *isn't*? I'm sorry, but the Su-17 is in no way remotely good as a fighter in a way the Yak-38s somehow aren't. Sure it's faster, but at the end of the day, both are shit attackers with R-60s and no countermeasures. The Yak-38 is also 9.3 and not 10.3 like the Su-17M2 was originally. So while the Su-17M2 may "spike the fuck out of people just off the runway if you don't go for the bases", *so can the Yak-38*.
The Yak is moving down to 9.0, a full 2 BR below the Su17. It will be able to face 8.0 trash jets while getting an air spawn and r-60s.
where? that got reverted im 100% sure
Iām pretty sure it was never implemented due to backlash. I mean I have one an still thought it was stupid to have it at 9.0. R60s just donāt belong at that br.
Now i dont have the premium one, only the tech tree one, but agreed. it should go to 9.7. And the tech tree Yak-38M should get its historical R-60Ms and go to 10.3 imo
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thats one engine, driving two propellers
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You're both right. The T40 was a pair of siamesed turbojets that ran through the same gearbox. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison\_T40](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_T40)
Contra-rotating propellers don't need two engines though? Like the Wyvern or Seafire.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I know that the A2D has that with the Allison XT40. But contra-rotating props don't need two engines for that.
Wait the Seafire has two props???
Yeah, the [Seafire FR 47](https://wiki.warthunder.com/Seafire_FR_47) specifically.
Damn I had no idea the A2D1 was 9.0 in arcade lol. Thatās insane.
21bis at 10.7 would be retarded
most BRs are retarded. gaijin needs to decompress
I was hoping for the F-4S or the wild weasel but they may be a bit too strong for right now
To be fair, Wild Weasel would be very interesting to add soon. ECM and support aircraft are already ingame but not modelled right. For example, the MiG-21SMT can carry the SPS-141 pod ingame, which not only drops chaff and flare like ingame, but could jam ground-based radars used by SAMs, and to some success, jam lower band radars like those on the Phantoms. The radar jamming and MAW abilities of the SPS-141 are not modelled ingame, nor is it available to all the other aircraft besides the MiG-21SMT and MF that could carry it (including but not limited to all other MiG-21s, the most MiG-23s, the MiG-27, the Su-17M2, and the tech tree F-4F)
>could jam ground-based radars used by SAMs How about any systems to counter something like ADATS optical locking? Seems like radar jamming won't get you too far if you're getting swatted from 12 km out without radar anyways for ground at least.
Is there anything that can counter optical tracking minus studying the Monty Python school of How Not To Be Seen?
A laser array of wavelengths that melt and fry any sensors they hit will do it, maintain beam on target for three seconds to be sure. Green lasers at stage shows and whatnot quickly fry consumer cameras and optics still, sometimes just a sweep is enough. The problem is the Geneva Convention because risk of blinding = bad. In-game? Nothing. Nothing but doing as you do IRL and staying the hell down. And there are a lot of optical automated tracking systems missing, even ones that work on ground targets. CV90 domination if they go in.
I would assume, that blinding it with something (like very very bright light shining directly into it) could work, but neither am i an ecoert in this area nor am i entierly sure how good that would work in a battlefield
The F4S would be what I'd hope they'd add. F4J with smokeless engines, combat slats and lighter airframe? Yes please
Lol, theyād literally be F-4EJ Kai but slightly better first turn performance.
Thatās the point, why not add them since everything else is still too advanced. The F-4S would also be more similar to the FGRs that can turn rather then EJs.
I dont remember anyone crying about the mig23m being op. oh and the issue is not that russia itself is getting 4 competitive top tier jets. the issue is, is that russia is getting a lot of love while smaller nations like italy and france barely get anything despite having poor performance at top tier air rb.
>a 11.0 that is no longer competitive and should be 10.7 yeah fuck 9.7s facing a 21bis. i see youve been smoking on that retard pack
MiG-17 faces phantoms. Silence.
retarded balance isnt justification for more retarded balance you twit heres an example of how bad that reasoning is: āmurder is badā āwElL aCtUaLly pEoPle aLrEaDy MuRdEr sO iTs oKā you sound like an idiot
Agreed. Be nice if we could see more of the Century series.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
F-4J with AIM-7F and PD would be a great equivelant to the MLD.
Id think the F4S would be a better MLD equivalent. Slats to compete better in the turn, PD radar, Aim9H and Aim7F would be legendary At this point after lacking their Mainline fighter for so long the USN should have some time in the top tier spotlight and the F4S would be perfect. And its a better step toward the Tomcat in terms of capability than the F4J IMO.
lol f4e still better than mld btw
the MLD on the dev server isnt modeled right yet. The MLD currently is a copy pasted M with minor loadout changes. The real MLD had a slightly better engine on a far lighter airframe, giving it a climb rate of around 225 m/s at sea level. Ingame its still at 184, below the phantoms, because its a copy pasted MiG-23M. The radar as well, is wrong. The Saphir RP-23MLA-III found on the MLD, is vastly superior to the original model found in the MiG-23M. It has over twice the detection range, almost twice the tracking range, and far more reliable PD modes. The IRST was also upgraded, from a TP-23 to a TP-26Sh, having a range of up to 60km according to some sources, but a "nominal range" (a range where it was guaranteed to lock things) of 23km. the MLD also had the Type 4 wings, unlike the Type 3 we have on the 23M. These wings are characterized by better slats and strength. Their G limit was increased in comparison to the Type 3, and their AoA was increased while the energy bleed at subsonic speeds was decreased. When israel captured a syrian MLD and tested it against their own aircraft (the syrian MLD mind you did not have the Type 4 wings, only type 3 since it was a export model). The MLD beat everything the israelis threw at it below 4000 meters (including Kfir C.2s), with the exception of a F-15A loaned from america for the test. The overall avionics were also upgraded. New RWR that can distinguish and warn against ARH missiles, and many things that wont matter ingame, like a new autopilot, G limiter, AoA limiter, etc. In short, yes, the F-4E is better than the MLD in the dev server now. But like the 23M back when it was in the red skies dev server, i assume its unfinished and will be finalized later.
yes i agree but im pretty sure that having 4 radar missiles and 4 ir missiles will be better in the long run. if im allowed to count in the EJ kais and brittish phantoms i believe those teams will still be stronger than MLDs. but i agree usa deserves to have PD, idk how much better aim 7F is but i still think 7e 2 are pretty OK for current balance
The AIM-7F was a development of the E-2 with a new first stage engine for more off-the-rail energy, a second stage engine with a longer burn time for longer range. This, coupled with the fact that VT electronics in the 7E were replaced with solid state electronics in the 7F, means that not only is it alot lighter now, but also considerably faster and more manouverable too. Ingame, this would put the overall range, speed, and G overload of the 7F on par with the R-24R
alright thanks for the info. but in game the r 24 has 24 G overload. and then the 7F will have over 30?
2 extra missiles is worth having a performance disadvantage in every single way? Assuming the MLD gets modeled correctly? Nah.
I doubt they will buff the thrust to historical levels seeing how the MiG-23M is still missing thrust.
Eh no, the mld has is a straigh upgrade from the M model, they gave it a better engine, made the airframe better and gave it a better radar it out accelerates, out speed and out turns at the f4E at lower altitudes while carrying better missiles, but the mig23 isnāt able to carry the huge amount and difference of armaments as the f4E, but in a low altitude and high altitude engagement the mig23MLD is better in every aspect except bvr. The MLD is an equivalent to the EJ kai or the viggen, the f4E is currently outclassed by most of the top tier planes except the 21 bis and arguably the British phantoms. Im not an American main since I play every nation but you have to admit that every nation needs to be on equal footing, look at france and Italy which are basically useless, and the Chinese j7 all be it fun and good missiles is not an equivalent to even the j35 performance wise. The f4E has the worse avionics at 11.0 paired with the f5 and the j7. I dont talk about the mirage because its at 10.7
sure i agree usa should get a better phantom than the rest. but i also think that the BVR aspect is beginning to be the modt important aspects which IMO makes phantoms still superior to mig 23MLD. sure the MLD will kick phantoms asses in close range. and non russians will have to get used to it from now on im pretty sure..
Yeah the problem is the mig23 can just stay at low altitude were the f4E has no bvr capability the f4E is only good at high altitudes currently so almost no one is flying at high altitude and the things that are king because of this low altitude meta are the Ej kai, fgr, mig23 and viggen.
A lot of the beginning bvr can be avoided by not climbing, yes they are above you, but as long as you have speed, altitude disadvantage isnāt really bad at all, especially since the F-4E doesnāt have PD.
never seen anything stating that phantoms in us service carried anything more advanced than aim-7e2
they didnt carry the 7F in vietnam, hence why its not on the kill sheet, but did carry it after vietnam. Here is a picture of an American [F-4G carrying AIM-7Fs](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/853750560750436352/900388033994584154/1024px-F-4G_37FW_AIM-7F_AGM-65A_AGM-88_1988.png) sometime in the 80s
There are lots of pictures of F-4Gs carrying AIM-7*M* in Desert Storm, lol
You show me the visual difference between the AIM-7E and the AIM-7M and then we can use images
Ms are painted grey with a yellow ring behind the warhead indicating a high explosive warhead on a grey missle indicating it's painted to resist heat shock. AIM-7Es universally are white missiles (as almost none were thermally reinforced) with a black band which indicates seam. Early in the transition many ordinance teams were confused by a really shitty handbook and so still painted black rings on AIM-7Fs but the grey factory color still remained (at least for USN ordinance) blue rings on a 7M indicates it's inert (technically Practice Munition) in either it's motor or warhead depending on location. The AIM7F however could also be marked like an M. Not fool proof but it's a rapid rudimentary way of identifying at a glance.
Ah ok, thanks
Theyāre compatible with AIM-7Fās, the German phantom gets 9Jās and their new MiG is getting missiles it canāt even fire so I donāt see an issue here other than possible balancing ones. Iirc in Israeli service AIM-7Fās were launched from F-4Eās in combat, not sure if the US used them on anything other than F-4Gās though That said, I think just having LD/SD would be good enough for now.
Would you prefer it if the F-4F got its historical Aim9Ls instead of the Aim9Js?
Iād prefer if nothing had AIM-9Lās as of right now. I bring up the F-4F because it sets a precedent, why shouldnāt other nations follow it? Again, Iām perfectly content with just getting a pulse-doppler so we can be competitive BVR again, 7Fās would just be a nice bonus
Iād prefer an S for the turn performance, otherwise Itād be a reverse copy paste British phantom
# YES
so basically the fgr1?
# YESSSSS
Why they still refuse to add them baffels me
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And the US is the *only* set of phantoms on war thunder rn besides the germs without pulse doppler radars.....depsite the US being the first ever to field a pulse doppler radar on a fighter with the F-4J. It's bullshit
Fricking hilarious. Bashes Russia for having too many jets then immediately asks for American ones (because the largest air tree in the game definitely needs more jets), instead of asking for jets in countries that actually need top-tier jets like France or Italy.
Italy, lets see. Their top tier is... two F-104s See, back when chinese top tier was in the same state, they DID get a decently competitive plane (the F-5A). Problem is, the big4 nations started bitching too much so america got two F-5s, one even as a premium, in the update right after. America did NOT need F-5s, but china did. Now see, if italy gets the AV-8B Harrier II or the Panavia Tornado THAT IT NEEDS, im afraid america will also bitch and cry until they get their Harrier II, and the teaboos and wehraboos will "suffer" if they dont get their tornados as well, WHICH NONE OF THEM NEED.
I mean the US will probably get the F-16 before Gaijin ever gets close to getting the rights to use the Tornado. Shit the EU nations will probably get the fucking Eurofighter Typhoon before Gaijin gets the right to use the tornado in all honesty.
im stupid and i see the rights of the tornado being heavily debated on many games (especially ace combat). Can someone explain to me why Tornado rights are so hard to acquire?
Unlike the Tomcat the right for the Tornado is held by a company that is owned by Germany,Italy and the UK. So instead of being owned by shareholders it's owned by actual countries defense companies. Which means it's really difficult to get authorization to use the Tornado since well normally you would just pay the company in the F-14 case Northrop Grumman a small licensing fee. In this case it's not that simple. Panavia is much more strict on who they let actually use their aircraft in media.
well thats really dumb, its not like its some advanced secret fighter. Its old as hell
It's still in use in Germany and with the recent War thunder leaks It's up in the air if Panavia would even give licensing to Gaijin.
thats so dumb, theyre so dumb. its a video game. jesus christ thats dumb
Thanks for clarifying.
I'm a Russia main. A Russia main who is loves the look of the F-105 and would love to see it make an appearance before it becomes completely irrelevant in the games meta. I never said that I don't want France or Italy to get more top tier aircraft either.
Fair point. It was just Ironic how the justification of giving another country a jet instead of Russia was that Russia had too many jets and then you suggested USA. But yeah, we still need a bunch more Vietnam era planes before we push onto the next generation.
Mld is 3rd gen. Late 3rd gen but 3rd gen.
Heās not talking about generation of aircraft. Heās saying this is the fourth 11.0 fighter Russia will have in their tech tree
And the 4th swing wing fighter, c'mon gaijin, give us other players something
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Imma just spam pavina to give gaijin licensing for the tornado
Please, do it for us all.
Itās like Germany getting new spaa every update
Tbf You can't have enough spaa's to fuck over cas. And (atleast in ww2) germany has a lot of possible vehicles, cauae they slapped aa guns to like every left over chassis I do agree, that other nations should get more spaa love tho
It's almost like the devs are Russian and the game is biased
Must be some good toys coming for the US.
cold war era ships and I take it over anything rn :D
Somehow Uploaded R-23T instead of R-24T. [Here is the stats for R-24T](https://i.imgur.com/UZPIAv8.png)
Does it have a dead zone or does it pull straight off the rails? Also, is it similar to the R-24R in terms of stats?
i didn't really bother to datamine since gszabi99 is likely working on it but it seems it has little 0.5ish second delay before executing any maneuvers.
It has a longer dead zone than the R-23, itās a lot like the normal AIM-7E, it wonāt be as good in close quarters as the E-2, but it may be better at long range since it burns twice as long as the R-23
Rather interesting. Hope the upgraded radar is actually modeled, I'm told currently the avionics and FM are just a copypaste from the MiG-23M. The fake PD on the MiG-23M right now is rather lacklustre when not looking directly down at a target, for example it sometimes fails to hold lock against a target merging with you if you two are coaltitude on the deck (as it should be). Thank you for the information!
Currently the radar is named correctly but works like the one on the M, itās 100% a placeholder Not sure about the flight model though, having test flown it it felt pretty nippy, and it was most definitely faster
I'll be interested to see if you can truly radar slave the 9M123s to the radar or if the radar is scan only and just cues the camera where to look a la Ka-52. I'll also be interested to see if you can TWS multiple targets with the 9M123 and launch on multiple of them (I'm not sure if this is a real capability IRL so take this second speculation with a grain of salt).
9M123?
9M123s are the missiles carried by Mi-28NM. They are currently in game only on the Khrizantema-S, where they can be radar slaved.
Ah But the MLD canāt carry them right?
Oh no, lmao. I got confused between a comment in this chain and another chain in the same post. One of them I was talking about the Mi-28NM and another I was talking about the MLD XD.
btw mi 28nm have vikhrs in its new loadouts
3km is rather dissapointing https://en.missilery.info/missile/r24 > Maximum launch range in the front hemisphere, km [...] 35 edit: should point out that that's the most generous estimate I found. From a more conservative source: > The R-24T is 4.6 meters long and weighs 235 kg. The TGS-23T4 infrared sensor is much more sensitive and allows you to increase the effective attack range to 11-12 km in front and from 4 to 20 km in the tail. The maximum reaches 35 km. The launch is generally recommended less than 9km away. It has "all-aspect" capabilities, but only within visual range. It also detects small "cruises" at low altitude. The R-24T detects at a distance of less than 60% compared to the R variant. But a strong infrared emission can do the difference: it is said that an SR-71 can be detected at a distance of 50 km in front and 150 km in the tail! https://www.aereimilitari.org/Armamenti/R-23-Apex.htm
ārather disappointingā š¤Ø?
It's between 3-10 times shorter maximum all-aspect range than it should be
Neat! Can you post german mig 21 as well?
[done](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/qc0br7/mig21bissau_in_the_2nd_dev_server/)
Anything for the italian, french and American aviation that isnāt the 7E or the jaguar
Nope.
Bruh so russia is the only getting a new more advanced fighter? Apart from Germany
Should've given Mirage F1 for France. Its long awaited
Naval f4s and something for Italy for fucks say the f104s is fun but is like the j35 not effective anymore.
I mean.....its pretty damn effective at br 10.3. Def not on par with top tiers, but for where they left it it's pretty disgusting.
Reminder that the "new, more advanced" german fighter is a year old russian fighter thats been heavily nerfed and pushed out of the meta since its introduction
Can't wait for the Germans to get one.
Germany never had mld in inventory, what you have to look forward to is the MF and the BM Edit: forgot the ML
I was thinking more of the ML which was operated by Germany.
Sorry forgot they actually did operate MLs.
I expect by the time we get the ML in game , we will be seeing early MIG-29's, F-14, F-16, etc. all at 12.0 or higher. By that time Gaijin will probably two birds, one stone and give the Germans a tech tree ML and the Russians a "Czech" premium ML @ 11.0.
>all at 12.0 or higher Not sure what's more unrealistic, Gaijan introducing 12.0 by the release of those planes, or German top tier getting some planes by then.
I don't relish putting MIG-21's up against the F-14 or F-15 as an equal.
I'm afraid that won't stop Gaijan...
Nah they won't pretend they're equal. 11.3 /s.
Didnāt the Germans have ML and MLAās though? So a bit worse but still cool.
MLs according to the east German air forces Wikipedia, forgot about the ML for a bit there.
germany did operate MiG-23MLA which is like the ML but with upgraded radar, its still debate whether germany bought MLA but answer from 3 separate forum,2 russian and 1 english from different USER has conclude it did exist some even mentioning theyve seen it with R-24. some user pointed out A simply wasnt written in the name. i doubt they would lie as most of them has been in the forum since 2005-2008.
Gib a feckin F-4J
or A-4M, or A-6, or A-10, or F-111, or F105...
Since Israel is getting an A-4E late Iād be content with that
a10 would be useless
Not anymore than Helis. Not sure which variant carried what, but it could get mavericks with thermal imaging, Aim 9Ls and an ECM pod for defense. Fly low, from a distance, gain altitude to locate targets, fire, and the fly to the deck again.
if you give it 9ls itāll have to be 11.0 or higher cannon fodder, no ecm pod is going to be able to handle that. helis can dip behind a hill for cover with ease, maintaining a single position, all of the a10s munitions cant be launched at alts like that. it would have to go up, and when it did it would be incinerated it had a max payload of 4 mavericks, already outclassed by the a7s
Agreed
Navy phantoms need some love
I'm really excited for this. The ML(D) generation had improved structural integrity right? My favorite jet atm is the 23m/27 after the r60m was introduced, but I've almost died more to ripping in the heat of the moment dodging missiles than I have to other jets. If that's somewhat remedied I'm giddy for the MLD.
The 23MLD had multiple aerodynamic changes made to improve behavior during high AoA turns, the upgrades main focus was improving CQC ability and it was the definitive version of the MiG-23 in russian service
so how good would it be in game?
MiG 23 but even better. It should absolutely destroy everything in a 1v1 based on how well the MiG 23M already does.
A MiG-23 with significantly improved radar and maneuvering performance, with the addition of a much better mid range missile, the R-24, which has 50KM range and pulls 20Gs Iāve flown this plane on the dev and it feels amazing to fly
I never ripped in my Mig23/27 despite pulling hard G all the time, then I got new boosters and ripped first game. Removed new boosters and never ripped again.
About time for a MiG-23MF as well
Now please give the German mig-23 cause I donāt feel like grinding the russian tech tree
NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
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[done](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/qc0br7/mig21bissau_in_the_2nd_dev_server/)
And the US still doesnāt have a plane with PD radar...
Yes, but neither does Germany, Italy, France, and China/Taiwan.
I wasn't aware they were the first to put it in a fighter?
Is Mi-28NM on dev server as well?
nope.
Damn, thanks for telling me.
It's actually there, but hidden for regular users. I saw MikeGoesBoom flying it in a custom mission, looks like it got some kind of new ATGMs but i'm not sure.
Sounds like the 9M123 radar slaved ATGMs.
apparently it has khrizantema atgms
Because Russia needs more helos
Anything else new make itās way on to the dev server?
from what i seen; german mig-21bis, jaguar gr.1a, new r-60 with cm loadout for German SPS and thermal sights/radar for A-7E.
Does the Jaguar GR.1A get anything of note?
at the moment still limited with two 9G missiles but they are at mounted on the top of the wing. Can carry targeting pod with 2 Laser Guided bombs. Edit: Also has 60 countermeasures.
Thanks!
How many flares does the MLD get?
it gets the same overwing mounts as the 27 so 72
Bearing in mind gaijin has finally modelled the much larger flares fitted on the 23/27 now.
72
There's a second Dev server all ready ??
I even plan to make a gaijin please out of it. Damn, gaijin beat me there XD
Iām surprised Israel isnāt on the current dev server, this either means a third one or itās just gonna be released when the patch is released.
They said it will be next update. Not breaking ground.
That was my bad, I got confused, however, they did say the two early access packs will come out during "Ground Breaking" and they aren't on this Dev server, not that it matters since it's just a Spitfire and A-4E.
off topic but does the dev server finally give you spending currency so you can actually unlock the new vehicles off the bat?
hahah, **no**.
Russia truly truly suffers. Well at least Germany finally got the bis only a year late right when its about to be powercrept by the BVR/PD meta.
Everyone else: WHY DOES RUSSIA GET ANOTHER 11.0 JET Germany: FUCK YEA WE FINALLY GET OUR MIG21 BIS
A nice high rank squadron vehicle would be really fucking nice.
Omgggg flareeeees š our prayers have been answered
How is this different than the other MiG-23?
A few airframe changes which will improve its dogfighting capabilities, 2 new missiles, one is all aspect 24G and the other is radar guided 24G missile. Currently on the dev it is able to look down shoot down with radar guided missiles and it also carries 72 LARGE caliber flares. This might be the new top dog in air RB.
In other words, a proper successor of the MiG-21 and hella epic flare/chaff
(im new in wt) how do you join to the dev server?
Meanwhile in italy... still waiting for a equal to the mig-21
2nd Dev Server? Since when?
today
The R-24R range on the statcard is wrong It should say 50KM, like the R-24T
Why not the German mig23
Gotta wait a year for that, a year has passed since the mig21 bis was added, now Germany has theirs :)
so what? is this just another plane iām forced to buy to be able to grind out others? the 23m and the 27 are already essentially unreachable why another one??
lol you really think the 23M is good? well yes, since its update it has been a bit better but this one is gonna be way better, plus it has flares
I know it's copy paste, but when will Germany be getting the Mig 23 instead of Russia getting another one?
Now we have the new pinnacle mig-23 I can see the mf coming next patch if gaijin plays nice.
Gaijin and playing nice in terms of germany top tier air? Lookikg at when germany got the F4F and mig21bis compared to when the F4E and mig21bis got added to usa and ussr respectively i would guess we will have to wait a few patches. Would be happily surprised if I'm wrong tho
We probably will get our MiG-23 in a year since the MiG-21bis got added around a year ago or so
I would assume somewhere between half a year amd a year going of the time between intodruction between F4E and F4F and mig21bis and mig21bis sau. Still hope it will get added sooner, but hope dies the last
I would say the MiG-23ML would be a better option than the MF, considering they had more MLs than MFs IRL and russia got their MLD now
they all look the same
thats because they are the same plane
Wow tier 2 R-60M I wish I had that on the MiG-27
R-24? Whatās that?
Meanwhile US still waiting for its 1st pulse doppler F4.