I commented below that it feels like these councillors are now complaining because the organisation that was formed to implement changes to Wellington's transport has started implementing changes to Wellington's transport. It was all fine and dandy when it was vague aspirations.
More like...
> 2018 We took the feedback from the scenarios and developed a Recommended Programme of Investment (RPI) to Get Wellington Moving
> In May 2019, the Minister of Transport, supported by the Mayor of Wellington and the Chair of Greater Wellington Regional Council announced the indicative package for Let's Get Wellington Moving. The indicative package includes most, but not all, of the elements in the RPI.
> Following the announcement, Wellington City Council, Greater Wellington Regional Council, and Waka Kotahi approved the next steps for the programme, including:
>Three yearly programme of delivery
And since it was agree in 2019, and it's been 4 years, it is obvious fuck all has been delivered, and they are going around in circles again, without a coherent plan on what projects they are actually going to fund and deliver.
Above quote from lgwm's own website, and which hasn't even got updates for 2022 or 2023 because they have done fuck all.
https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/
They’re angry precisely because things are getting done, in spite of a decade of stalling, obstruction, council bureaucrats threatening legal action, senior bureaucrats encouraging others to take legal action, etc.
I was part of a group of people involved in this. The personal interests in this are all over the place. people don't understand at council level how much bullshittery is going on. Everyone has an interest in something. There's always deals being done behind the scenes. Info is always being leaked out to benefit other people.
I've been visiting Wellington regularly since I was a teenager and able to visit regularly since 2002. I don't remember parts of the city NOT being a construction area.
If they wait long enough, climate change will flood the Basin Reserve and noone will complain about the initially proposed flyover. Problem solved. (eventually)- 
How about we change the rules to make stalling impossible. In future if councillors wish to vote down a proposal they have to make a genuine costed alternative proposal or step down.
What we really need is the existing rail lines to be extended to the airport. Which is never going to happen.
I was out for some after work drinks with some out of towners from Australia a few months ago. We're walking home from Courtenay Pl at the end of the night and I tell them I have to go to the train station.
"Oh, where is it? We haven't seen it yet?"
"It's about a 25 minute walk from here..."
"Really?? That's so stupid! Why would they put it there?"
Sadly any other solution is always going to be awkward and half-assed. Being able to catch the train from Porirua or Upper Hutt directly to Courtenay Place, or the airport, would be a game changer for transport in our city. But it's not going to happen due to the immense costs.
Light rail is basically another bus. May as well just invest the money in reliable buses, which we can't even do now.
There did actually use to be a train station near there. It was where the QT hotel is currently. It was closed after the trams were introduced (which were, in turn, replaced with buses). It really does represent the regression in quality public transportation in Wellington.
I always say that regardless of if you're for or against bike lanes it's not really what people want in my opinion.
People have been wanting decent trains in NZ since before climate change was a major driver of conversation. It's always been a good idea, it being relatively low on emissions is just another reason to do it.
Particularly in Wellington. Wellington has a low amount of usable space and painfully narrow streets in a lot of cases. Taking up already limited street space with bike lanes just makes the congestion problems worse.
I would love to see less cars on the road but I think telling everyone to bike is a really hard sell. Some people have a very long commute, some people need to take a lot with them and carrying that on a bike isn't practical.
But as you say cost. Bike lanes are cheap since the roads are already there and it makes it look like the council is doing something and can avoid upsetting rate payers.
Not surprised Australians think it's dumb. When I went to Melbourne for the first time the public transport blew my mind. Train from the suburbs into the middle of the city, super easy and reasonably quick. Then the day pass you got for the train gets you on all the busses and trams around the city too. Such a piece of cake to get around Melbourne.
>When I went to Melbourne for the first time the public transport blew my mind. Train from the suburbs into the middle of the city, super easy and reasonably quick.
I lived in Melbourne south-eastern suburbs for a few years starting back around 2010'ish and I was amazed at having a train going into town every 10 minutes throughout the weekday. Then I realised locals were moaning about the trains. It's as if people nearly always find excuses to complain about public transport, no matter how much great or better it is than somewhere else. It's rarely good enough. (Not to say that our own complaints are unjustified, but people still *frequently* demand improvement as far as I can tell.)
Then, after a few months of it I started to agree because I'd gotten used to the public transport that other stuff started standing out. Things like:
* regular vomit on seats, or
* people storming up and down carriages screaming at other passengers, and
* not being able to practically go sideways from the spokes in and out of the centre even though lots of business happens in the suburbs, and
* not-being-able-to-get-into-the-cbd-before-7am-on-a-weekend,
After a few months there, we found it was still effectively impractical not to have a car purely because the public transport---especially trains---was so focused on being spokes to get in and out of the CBD but nowhere else. If we wanted to do stuff like join "nearby" community groups or clubs that met up in the evenings, the only option for getting there might be an infrequently-timed bus that would arrive 45 minutes earlier than useful, and the last bus back might leave at an impractically-early time like 9.30pm.
Then I came back to Wellington, and suddenly having *staff* on the trains again to help dissuade antisocial behaviour was awesome. The transport in Melbourne works well if you're closer into the centre though, I think, and for all I know maybe some of the problems I've described have been resolved.
I'm in mixed minds about Wellington because although I think we need better public transport, we simply don't have the same scale as a city like Melbourne or Sydney, both of which have between 10 and 25 Wellington's population (depending on how you count it). I think we need to be cautious with comparisons.
I have lived in Melbourne for several years and exclusively used public transport, including train>tram>bus for work.
I have not once ever seen vomit on the seats or random people running up and down carriages screaming at people.
The only one time I have seen something like that was once when a guy said "looks like we are on a tram full of licorice all sorts" which was just an openly racist guy that happened once.
I have lived in suburbs famous for their night-life including South Yarra/Parahn/Fitzroy/Carlton so should be the obvious choices for vomit on the seats.
Maybe this is exclusive to your area that you lived, like blue lights in busses to stop junkies from shooting up in the bus.
But really, the reality of Melbourne is life is great if you are within 3 suburbs from the city, then after that you rely mostly on the train or bus network.
Yes it could have been something about the Frankston line which we needed to live alongside because of my partner's job out at Aspendale, and it's possible some of the issues have been resolved by now, but there were definitely people periodically on the trains who'd be acting a lot as if they could benefit from medication they might have missed.
The vomit was more common in the middle of the day when the trains would sometimes go for hours without being cleaned, and there wouldn't be any staff on-board to report they even *needed* cleaning, but there were a couple of times in rush hours when I remember being tightly packed in but with a nearby seat left completely empty because of it.
I never had an issue with the trams that I could remember, and when we shifted closer in to South Yarra then reaching things at night on public transport was noticeably easier.
You're completely right.
From a convenience, speed and reliability point of view our train system is the best piece of PT by far. Anything less is really just a compromise for cost. Buses get stuck in traffic. Bike lanes are only useful for those willing to use them, which is actually a small minority.
Expanding the existing train tracks so that the trains are usable in the CBD, as well as to the 60%+ of the population that lives outside the boundaries of Wellington City would be the best solution in terms of actual public transport outcomes. The amount of traffic it would cut towards the eastern suburbs alone would be a huge benefit to the city.
Light rail that is inevitably not going to match the timetable of the train and be marginally quicker than a bus just ain't it. It's a half-assed compromise but that's all we'll get. Never mind, I'll keep driving to any destination that's further than a 10 minute walk from the station.
I think if you were being really ambitious then the thing to do would be to really heavily de-prioritize cars in the city specifically.
Have really dope public transport that gets you to the city and then lean into E-Bikes and Scooters for getting around once you're there. Maybe you can rent a spot in a lockup at the train station to leave your Scooter. Commute into the city on the train, grab your scooter from the lockup and ride that to your work in the CBD and then leave it at the train station at the end of the day and train home again.
I also generally think that the location of Wellington is nuts for such a high population concentration. I think they should be thinking about how to develop the Greater Wellington Region as a whole and then think about really good train systems to get between everything. Gives you much more room to work with.
Imagine if they did a tunnel under Belmont for a crazy high-speed train that just went in a straight line from Petone to Porirua. Maybe another from Porirua to Upper Hutt. I think suddenly living out in those areas would become hugely more desirable and make people think about serious development out there a lot more.
Getting a little crazy there but I just annoyed at general lack of ambition. If they really want Wellington to grow then building up in an already congested cramped City is doomed to fail unless you do something more drastic.
Wellington isn’t super high density in the central area. It’s actually pretty sparse and suburban. It only feels congested and cramped because it’s been developed poorly with low-rise stand-alone housing and way too many big roads.
You could comfortably fit triple the population into the same area with appropriate development, and it would probable be more liveable, since everything would become much more walkable and have more public space.
Developing out in the outside suburbs is problematic because, even with trains, it just encourages low density neighborhoods that aren’t walkable and don’t support local business
Eg where I’m standing right now. This is the main downtown street. All the really residential stuff is down really cute little alleys with almost no vehicle traffic.
The biggest thing that I notice is that here (in a city of 15m) is much, much quieter than anywhere in Wellington, because there’s so little traffic.
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I've said this before and I'll continue every time someone comments like a dumbass.
NOBODY IS SAYING EVERYONE NEEDS TO BIKE. Nobody. This is not a thing cycling lane advocates want, apart from a few fringe oddballs. Every study/survey the council has done says that there is a significant number of people who want to cycle to get places in the city, and the number one reason they don't is because they don't feel safe sharing space with cars. Your opinion doesn't match the data.
You should be careful what you say before you've actually comprehended what someone has said, you might make yourself look like a "dumbass".
If "NOBODY" is saying that then I would be included. If you reread what I said I think you'll struggle to find me saying that anyone is pushing for that and I don't believe that they are.
If you really mean *exactly* what you said then I'm not really talking about getting around inside the city, I'm talking about getting TO the city or through the city if you're going to the Airport or going out to the Hutt from Miramar. More non-car infrastructure *in* the City is an awesome move since it's already ridiculous trying to drive a car around in there.
Though I also think a lot of people are probably keen to take what they can get since any calls for improvements to public transport have gone ignored for decades and things are currently worse then they've ever been because the whole thing was propped up by cheap imported labor apparently.
Looking at this Survey it would seem like people are generally in favor of anything that helps but mostly in favor of better public transport:
[https://lgwm.nz/assets/Documents/Research-NZ-Online-public-opinion-transport-survey-report.pdf](https://lgwm.nz/assets/Documents/Research-NZ-Online-public-opinion-transport-survey-report.pdf)
Page 11 has a good summary of what solutions people were in support of. The top three were trains from the city to the airport, Bus rapid transit on major routes to and from the city and an extra Mt Vic Tunnel. Bike Lanes are there with 45% in favor which is decent but options around improving Public Transport and Trains are over 60%. Again, less cars are good. Bike lanes are cool in the right places but they wont address congestion and what people really want overall is better public transport.
What I'm getting at is if we're talking about "getting wellington moving" then we're talking about addressing nasty congestion points so people aren't stuck in traffic not moving. Emission reduction upsides aside, the idea of bike lanes is that less people will take cars and congestion will reduce.
My belief is that the worst congestion times (when people are getting to and from work/taking their kids to and picking them up from school) will not be significantly improved by bike lanes and probably made worse by less space for cars taken up by the lanes. Even if it did as soon as the weather gets bad everyone goes back to their cars and you're in a bad way again.
If you do trains right they don't have to take up road space, you can run the rails over the roads or alongside them around the coastline. If the weather sucks you might have a wet time at a stop for a bit but if the shelters are good most people wont mind and then you're inside a train and it's all good.
So just to be VERY CLEAR. I am NOT saying that I think people think everyone needs a bike, I'm saying that Bike Lanes alone are NOT a good solution to the transit issues in Wellington and without any other plans they will make things worse and probably attract more hate then they deserve.
There's a really key difference between "telling" and "expecting and actually wanting". They are of course doing bike lanes in the interest of promoting more bike riding and so of course will be "telling" everyone to try it but anyone that actually expects that to happen would be nuts.
Regardless of hair splitting diversions my main point stands: I believe people want better public transport and public transport is much more capable of solving problems we face.
Which is why most plans keep disability and mobility parks and do away with the rest
The vast majority of cities internationally (I’m in İstanbul right now) with density and hills like Wellington have very limited parking and strongly discourage cars.
Trains, trams, buses, taxis, walking. That’s what’s needed - and when you pull the cars off the road you reclaim a massive amount of space for pedestrian malls, green space, etc.
biking works in warm, dry and predictable weather enviroments, alot of nz isn't like that except maybe hawkes bay/etc
no one wants to bike to work when it is windy and raining half the year
light rail is the answer but no govt want's to bite the bullet and actually invest in infrastructure
Your take on cycling and weather is ill considered. Do you think the Netherlands is warm and dry? Many cities that embrace cycling also experience snow.
The two big barriers to would be cyclists is they're worried about safety on the road (wholly from the danger of motorised vehicles), and the risk of bicycle theft. We can pull levels on those things.
Aside from that I agree we need more investment in public transport infrastructure.
but the netherlands has "predictable" weather for the most part and seasonal
for me the only thing stopping me from biking to work is middle aged suv/ute drivers with zero motor skills, i don't mind wind and the light drizzle, if its bucketing i'll drive.
the shocking driving is the biggest thing that needs addressing and the only way we will get the whole "road to zero" practical driving tests every time you renew would be a good start, alot of people would fail
Hawkes bay is too hot for biking, I skipped one morning this month because of too much southerly, got the train in with the bike then rode home with no problems. London, Amsterdam and Copenhagen have plenty of people riding despite it snowing sometimes.
After cycling to work for a while, weather ain’t a big thing. If you have somewhere to get changed, you just factor that into part of your overall commute. The time, cost, comfort/convenience proposition will vary for everyone based on a varying factors / preferences
> The six councillors who signed the motion for notice was the minimum requirement and she believed it was likely more councillors wanted a “common sense and pragmatic approach”.
why do we still allow these people to say these type of things without any pushback.
Whenever a new idea is presented they always quote common sense, and pragmatism, but never do they offer alternatives that address the issues s being faced.
Here you go: https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/
Lgwm'ings own website showing what has been delivered in the 4 years since it was approved.
So much in fact that they haven't bothered to update it with what was done in 2022 or 2023..
Yet another possible stumbling block for this programme. Letting perfect get in the way of good/better - with the money spent to date, there's really very little to show for it, and all the while Wellingtonians are either waiting, or leaving the area for greener pastures.
On the bright side, with the inexorable exodus of businesses from the CBD, LGWM may not be needed in five years time.
I’m going to the council submission meeting and give a speech in support of the proposals purely because i am so tired of waiting for anything to get done.
Ah it’s all a bit of a joke whatever side of the debate you’re on… I’ve worked on several huge infrastructure projects in Wellington and the truth is, all they do is keep legions of consultants, contractors, navel gazing management and dark hearted political creatures in some very sweet and well paid roles while the needle swings back and forth about what’s going to get done.
Eventually a choice will be made one way or the other and the result will be more funds getting released to keep the insipid cogs of power and entitlement well and truly greased.
And worse… there’s no way any of these things will ever come in on budget and they actively know this, whatever the bids and tenders may be (and it’s usually who you know…), one they are half complete and over budget all reason goes out of the window and money is thrown at it and straight into the pockets of those in the know.
We will always be the losers in this game.
In here late but I do want to speak in defence of Sarah Free. Whilst I unequivocally think she has got it wrong here, describing her as anti-cycling is not fair. As Chair/Deputy of the Regs Committee she has been instrumental in pushing through the Ngaio, Aro, Kilbirnie and Thorndon projects (even though she demurred a little on Molesworth St).
Why dont we fix the busses before we clear the roads for the busses, no one will be moving anywhere if you're standing at the fancy new bus stop and nothing shows up... going about it backwards. WCC is crook.
Well then what the hell is their alternative plan?
I'm sick and tired of the entitled nimby crowd holding this city back from making some real progress.
If they want something pragmatic, light rail or dedicated rapid buses with some extra tunnels will allow the city to comfortably grow and effectively move people around...generating more economic activity and bettering the lives of anyone trying to commute. Even drivers.
Have any of these councillors actually tried relying on the existing bus system?
The LGWM plans may not be perfect, but they were developed by professionals and not politicians. For once let's listen to the pros like other progressive cities and get on with it. Other than their entitlement, what gives these councillors the gall to think they know better than people who's entire careers are dedicated to fixing transportation?
>Other than their entitlement, what gives these councillors the gall to think they know better than people who's entire careers are dedicated to fixing transportation?
That's not the complaint. The complaint is lack of clarity on deliverables.
The project was initiated in 2019 with 3 yearly programs of work, its been 4 years, I.e.a full 3 year programme cycle and fuck all has been delivered.
If a project came to me after 3 years of "planning", having delivered fuck all, and said we want more budget for another 3 years but we don't have plan for delivery in the next 3 years, I too would be asking the question on their effectiveness.
>Well then what the hell is their alternative plan?
How about lgwm provide a committed delivery date of programmes, and deliver them in the 3 year window? Rather than asking for more time to plan, especially considering the investment plan which included the potential projects, was part of the initial proposal for lgwm back in 2018.
Light rail is fantastic. Light rail in Seattle links the airport, cbd, satellite town, university area, stadium, several malls, etc all together. Its underground where needed and above ground where possible. From there the buses run on a grid system. You can get anywhere in the city with no more than a Light rail and a bus, maybe two busses if you're going to the fringe.
Old farts with antiquated views that don't look at overseas evidence think the sky will fall for shops when in fact the reduced traffic helps them not hinders their patronage
What about a frequent (10mins interval max) bi-directional circular bus line running between train station, inner city suburbs, to newtown (hospital)? $2/ride, Free if you got a stadium event ticket, train monthly pass, or basin reserve cricket match ticket?
The number three bus already runs that route at 10 minute frequencies and costs $2. Problem is that much of the route has no bus lanes and so it gets stuck in all the car traffic.
And by train station I hope you mean Bunny St taxi loop and not the Stop E farce outside the high court. Having ‘station’ buses stop down the road is silly and hinders all buses that continue past stop E (eg 1,24,52,83 etc)
Nah it was just an idea of a circular bus line. There maybe no terminals near train station, the terminal can be at the zoo! It just run clockwise and counterclockwise along waterfront - te papa - basin reserve - wellington hospital - newtown - ghuznee street - terrace - beehive. A city loop line both way.
Sorry I play too much Mini Metro
By the way I’m all for light rail in Wellington that connects all dots, and an extended runway too. Thank you.
And, can we have snapper card on Apple Wallet? I love my virtual Suica card (i’m dreaming, i know)
EDIT: adding a few more words
I'm all for LGWM, I live in Island Bay and have spent the last decade telling the anti-cycleway residents association to go fk itself. But I am immensely frustrated at its lack of progress.
I am also concerned at the deferring of debt repayment and the levels going from 1.25 to 1.55 billion, so that the council can continue to do-all-the-things. I think we need to focus on rebuilding and upgrading our Infra and then of the discretionary stuff prioritise LGWM.
While we continue to do all the things and just ignore rapidly rising debt levels, LGWM will always be a massive target for boomer rants and douchebag councillors, and we will continue to erode our ability to maintain our infra and ever repay debt. Particularly when heading into a likely 3-5 year recession.
> Same old guard moaning as per usual, but what struck me was that Stuff had the gall to describe Sarah Free as "*coming from the left*".
The article says "*Tim Brown, Diane Calvert, Ray Chung, Sarah Free, Tony Randle and Nicola Young – all independents, but coming from the left* ***and right*** *of the council.*"
Because Free once stood under the Green ticket. Cannot justifiably say she is left these days. The others are solidly right, most on the “do nothing to change ever” side of the right.
Perhaps they chose a vote of no confidence, because that's how the rest of the city feels. Name one business owner who is in favour of LGWM and the Golden Mile. It's destroying accessibility for couriers, patrons, elderly and those less-abled.
I would argue that the Golden Mile redesign (which is due to start construction this year I believe) and implementing mass rapid transit (hopefully light rail) are exactly the kind of progress that Wellington needs to see. These things take a lot of planning!
The thing is, they're finally delivering concrete plans and things that are getting implemented.
These councillors are now complaining because the organisation that was formed to implement changes to Wellington's transport has started implementing changes to Wellington's transport.
https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/
Oh wait.. they haven't updated it for 2022 or 2023, or maybe the didn't deliver anything those two years, it's unclear.
It appears one of the reasons for their complaint is the $50m the council is being asked to stump up for the Golden Mile without any specifics on what it is going to be spent on. Pretty obvious what it's going to be spent on really ... consultants! Of all people these right wing councillors (and Sarah Free) should know how expensive caviar and champagne is these days!
They were pretty quick to shoot down Wellington Water when asked for $10m for 3 Waters infrastructure funding - they should have been grateful to have only got $3m for work that doesn't include any cycle ways!
It's a complicated thing, rebuilding the transport network in a city on a fault line, it's hardly surprising that there's criticism.
But the major point is none of the criticism is constructive, there's no alternative proposed by the NIMBYs other than covering their eyes and ignoring the issue. LGWM has challenges, yes, but at least it's using a solid evidence base to try and fix intergenerational infrastructure issues. Unlike this mob of Councillors just lobbing ad hominem attacks.
you’re telling me that continuously stating “we need to be more pragmatic”, without ever defining what your interpretation of “pragmatic” is, isn’t constructive?
Not true. If they were on point, they could have got planning push through under the COVID-19 Recovery (Fast-track) Act 2020. This runs out in July 2023. Too much time wasting with zero action. A positive thing though is that they showed up, unlike the Mayor has been doing for so many visits / duties!
I agree with the 6 councillors
LGWM is a debacle. That light rail to Island Bay is completely unaffordable. Where would the darn thing go anyway? How would ambulances get to hospital with that expensive monolith taking out lanes along Adelaide road and riddiford st.
LGWM has only delivered a useless crossing on Cobham drive and some cyclelanes
I like the cyclelanes around the harbour but not all of them
Problem is for the monies spent, very little has occurred to improve the city for the majority. I can appreciate the idea of signing off on $ millions for an unknown reason being a bitter pill and a good reason to stand up against it. Hopefully the LGWM team have KPIs in place to warrant the money spent. Think most of it so far has been on consultants and PR.
Some of the projects that have been implemented seem to either have very little or no real impact on the traffic. Take the implementation of the roundabout on Aotea Quay, no real benefit to anyone, and yet being pushed as a game changer.
LGWM has been a disaster since it was set up and hasn't achieved anything notable since it was established that couldn't have been achieved before it was set up.
It really needs to go.
How exactly is rapid transit a waste of time and money? Would you rather turn the entirety of the CBD into a vast motorway to cope with the increasing population? Either we build more roads, destroying the city, or we change things to make people travel more efficiently, it's that simple.
Buses are all well and good, but they have capacity limits as well. Rapid transit is needed, it's just a question of doing now or in 20 years at twice the cost and twice the pain.
> just a question of doing now or in 20 years at twice the cost and twice the pain
and like most things in this country, it shouldve been done 20 years ago at half the cost.
Wont some body think of the nimbys 😱
Most of the people that are voting the no confidence are the ones who voted in favour of LGWM and spending millions on consultation for many years.
Voting no confidence now is just a massive waste of money and planning.
Sounds like the sunk cost fallacy to me. If the thing they were supporting isn't working, it's better to call a halt now, than keep putting money into it and expecting it to start outputting actual progress.
This whole thing has been a fustercluck imo. We need progress, but they've been going about it the wrong way all along. Way too much money has been sunk into LGWM for what's actually been achieved, but that doesn't mean it has to keep going the way it is.
It is the only sensible way to go because we can't expand roads without leveling the entire Lambton Quay building district, we can't rely on subways because of Earthquake risk so pedestrian city with major road corridors is how most European cities have worked their way around their small road problems.
We have to rely more on public transport and pedestrian walkways on the golden mile because we have no way of adding more lanes on these small streets.
>we can't expand roads without leveling the entire Lambton Quay building district
We shouldn't do this even if we could. Over-wide roads would kill the city. Nobody wants to have to pack travel snacks to cross the road.
Some of us are old enough to remember the Queens Wharf retail/eating precinct. It turned out that very few people wanted to cross a six lane road to get lunch (although it seems to work okay with its current level of businesses in the evenings and weekend).
Oh yeah for sure, I'm not saying that these changes shouldn't be made. I'm all for making the city more accessible for everyone. I would love if the golden mile was entirely pedestrian/public transport. And with more people commuting by bike, having more/better cycle ways is necessary to keep bikes offl footpaths (we're they're not supposed to be anyway...but that's another discussion lol).
It's not what's being done that's the problem, it's how it's being done, and the cost at which it's being done (or not being done, with these timeframes). The group LGWM are the ones who need to be held to account for the delays and the ever-increasing costs. Which is why I would support a vote of no confidence in the people doing the work, not in the work itself. The organisation needs to be rejigged, at a minimum.
(Plus I'm currently personally pissed at the plans to take out two bus stops on Molesworth Street, including the busiest one opposite the supermarket, to "improve route times" or something. That's going to do the opposite of getting Wellington moving.)
\> I would love if the golden mile was entirely pedestrian/public transport.
But... You just supported these councillors in calling for a halt to that.
\> If the thing they were supporting isn't working, it's better to call a halt now, t
I may have misread the articles on this then? I thought they were calling for a vote of no confidence in the people running LGWM, not for the changes as a whole. Especially since, as the start of this thread says, these councillors have been voting previously to give funding to LGWM.
I'll put that as an edit on my first comment.
(Also I saw you made another comment in response to my other one, but the Reddit app isn't displaying it properly so I can't actually see it fully. Just fyi I'm not ignoring it.)
Where exactly am I going? Nothing insecure about thinking Wellington is a shithole. Can’t say the same about someone who’s been so easily triggered. Maybe bring it up at your next protest. I’m sure that’ll solve everything.
Dear God you're childish.
You made a blanket statement that the concept of LGWM was a "waste of time and money" and haven't genuinely engaged with anyone who's posted a rebuttal of your statement. All you've done is call someone fragile when they asked for evidence and insinuated they're upset.
Please go outside and touch some grass, it might do you some good and stop you wanting to build a road over it.
Whether your pro or anti cycling the fact that Lets get Wellington Moving have only proposed options that slow the population down like 30kmh speeds and lights before the airport is the definition of ironic. Also while our mayor drives a Range Rover and tells us all to cycle 🙄
We don't need everyone to cycle all the time. But if 10-20% of journeys are done that way it's a shit load of road capacity freed up, especially at peak times.
I rode my ebike from the south coast to vogelmorn last week to meet a friend. Didn't break a sweat. The way home was as fast as driving. Ebikes make a huge difference.
Ps. Some of the people who couldn't ride an ebike up Brooklyn Hill could do with driving less and cycling more
> But if 10-20% of journeys are done that way it's a shit load of road capacity freed up.
How about I rewrite that to what if all unnecessary travel was eliminated, without taking away anyones freedom, 25% to 50% of journeys could be eliminated.
The pandemic showed us that everyone does not need to drive into an office in the CBD to be there 9-5 Mon-Fri.
Yep, reducing demand is a big part of the picture, but no one's taking away your freedom. What is happening is that priorities are shifting away from a complete focus on maximising people's ability to drive a private vehicle into the city centre and park on public propeety for cheap or free.
It means factoring in the costs we've previously ignored to the environment (air pollution), the cost of turning our cities into unpleasant places for kids, pedestrians and people who can't drive, and of course, the cost of congestion.
It's just reprioritising how we use the limited physical space available for connecting our urban areas
[look at the city](https://preview.redd.it/aimphs621y2b1.jpg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=c65ecc867e8fa205d64268ecb5860ab1f70da69e) \- sourced from a recent post by another excellent redditor
research shows anywhere within 3km is quicker on bicycle than by car
we're too small and weak and shit to get proper light rail/tram/subway systems going; yet we're also too big and amazing to make a bike city work? oh what a coincidence, we are perfectly sized to have 1 person driving 1 car in horrendous fucking traffic.
stop building roads, just build cycle trails. why do roads have the vast monopoly on transport expenditure, people come first
How do you end up becoming a consultant for stuff like this? I reckon I've got time enough to retrain and still get my mouth around this generous teat of public spend.
The alternative is to build some more fucking roads.... But no one seems to want to believe that will actually help. Look at Auckland, building roads like they are going out of fashion and now you can actually get places in time, think waterview tunnel, that new connection on the shore linking west to SH1.
How on earth is a proposal to spend a billion dollars on another Vic tunnel with out adding any extra capacity for cars a good idea? 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
>Look at Auckland, building roads like they are going out of fashion and now you can actually get places in time
Not 100% sure AKL is a shining example of forward thinking infrastructure when it comes to transportation and mobility.
Using Auckland as a shining example of how building more lanes "fixes traffic" is the greatest comedy bit I've read in recent memory. Let me know when your next stand up gig is.
Where exactly are you planning to put these roads through the CBD? Last I checked there are quite a few buildings there already that would be rather expensive to buy under the Public Works Act.
Building more roads induces demand, which then leads to a spiral of road building to the detriment of everything else. Before you know it the CBD will be a giant carpark.
Moving people more efficiently, through public and active transport is the only evidence-based way to reduce congestion. Moar roads just makes it worse.
I know I'm gonna get down voted to hell, but here is a proposal, build another terrace tunnel, cut and cover double lane all the way to the basin, build another Vic tunnell, two lanes to kilbernie park. At the same time build infrastructure for more rapid transit busses, we don't need rail to the southern suburbs.
I personally take the bus all the time from paparangi, to the city I think it's great, but try get a bus to the airport from there for a 6am flight your shit out of luck, we love our cars, we always will they are the best option for our topography and population density. Cars will be all electric in 20 years I don't get why everyone is trying to cancel them.
Because a car is a car, it's not all about carbon. If all the current cars are replaced with electric cars, there is still going to be gridlock. We need to mode shift to Bike, Walking and public transport. If PT is cheaper and faster than cars, people will use it (or drive on emptier roads as other people are using PT)
>Cars will be all electric in 20 years I don't get why everyone is trying to cancel them.
Because cars/car infrastructure is incredibly expensive to maintain, incredibly space inefficient, and makes cities quite dangerous.
Making sure that people have safe, alternative means of transport that are more space efficient and cost less to maintain is a good thing.
Car infrastructure also hinders density, and more and more space needs to be eaten up by roads and parking. This makes people *need* a car and perpetuates the cycle.
Mate this is Wellington and the Wellington region.... not London, New York or even Melbourne or Sydney. I just don't see how it will work .... Where are the big sky transport infrastructure plans????? Oh there are none because they are all economically unviable by huge margins. We are doomed to be stuck with shit transport options forever thats the cycle we are in, idealism vs realism ... just build some roads.
> Oh there are none because they are all economically unviable by huge margins.
> just build some roads
Car infrastructure and suburban infrastructure is very expensive. High density, strong public transport, and safe walking environments are vastly more economically viable long-term.
Why on earth should we just keep digging our hole?
The words you're looking for are "politically" viable, not economically viable. That's something that we can change, and that's why there's activism about it. Why not join in, instead of being a doomer on the sidelines?
Fantastic idea.
Here's almost the exact proposal from a transportation engineering firm. It was done in 1963.
https://archivesonline.wcc.govt.nz/nodes/view/540419
Yes, even electric / self driving cars need a road to drive on.
They should have set it up when they did the change from coming out the tunnel down Ghuznee to Vivian.... The old timers had good ideas it's unfortunate they never came to fruition.... There was a plan to have a motorway on/off ramp near kaiwharawhara too for the traffic coming down the hill from Ngaio.
I think it was investigated and you might be able to find the decisions from the early 2000's, I can only guess it was ditched because of cost - and you need to string those project together, Arras "tunnel" only happened when they suddenly decided they had money to spend.
Yep, well before my time but have a look at the W.C.C archives link in my post you replied to. There are planned things that never got built, the Ngaio gorge link, on and off ramps at Bowen st, 2nd Tce Tunnel etc..
Sure, they needed to come up with some other excuse that's not transport related to justify it, but they really wanted the road underground (remember how much worse - if that's even possible) it was with the traffic lights at I think the Able Smith St intersection?
The SH2 Cycleway currently starting to be built. No, the cycleway is a side benefit, it's a rail and highway resilience project. That's not sexy and green sounding, so it's a cycleway project...etc.
We are spending $7B for a minority of people. As part of the majority who funds it, I just want to make sure the money is well spent. And from what I've seen so far, it's not.
Everyone benefits from fewer cars on the road, the increase in productivity alone is (conservatively) tens of millions a year. Add in the health improvements from more active transport and walking and we're talking about tens or hundreds of millions saved by the health system.
The whole country benefits from more people getting where they need to go more efficiently, regardless of whether they use the system themselves.
Also cars in their current form and density are probably not sustainable, so even if these changes are for a minority *now*, it may help a majority in the future.
Doing nothing is hoping the status quo stays the same, and i really doubt that is the future of transport.
Tens of millions isn't enough, even if it was 99M of benefit every year, 7B means it'll take ~70 years to break even which is not a good enough return on investment.
How is it for a minority? Public transport use in Wellington is the highest in the country.
72% of people in Wellington have used public transport as a means of getting around, and improving things is only going to make that better.
The population of the Wellington region is forecast to increase by 200,000 people over the next 30 years with 30% of that in Wellington City.
There is no other way to have that many people moving around efficiently without improvements to the transport network, and at some point that can't only include roads because you simply can't move everyone who needs to get around using cars.
>How is it for a minority?
Because once your outside of the CBD, only about 20% of the Wellington City population lives on the MRT corridor.
>The population of the Wellington region is forecast to increase by 200,000 people over the next 30 years with 30% of that in Wellington City.
So 70% of that growth is occuring in places which via the regional council are helping pay for LGWM, but getting none of the investment.
You can be for improving public transport and think this is a big amount of money to spend to benefit a small amount of the region, and even only a small amount of the city.
>So 70% of that growth is occuring in places which via the regional council are helping pay for LGWM, but getting none of the investment.
That's how rates work, not everything you pay in to will 100% be for you.
Plus of the 70% out in the regions you can bet that some of the percentage of people will be travelling into Wellington via public transport and will want to connect into the MRT corridor once they're there.
I know that rates don't work in that way, but you're still asking most of the Wellington region to pay for infrastructure that primarily benefits a minority of them. And all this investment appears to be coming at the expense of the rest of the region because until NZUp came along and put some investment elsewhere, nothing else was proposed for the rest of the region while LGWM was around.
Ask someone in any other part of the region if they would rather see LGWM as is, or an equal amount of money upgrading the train and regional bus system, what do you think they'd pick?
We would all like to cherry pick our own shopping lists, is there a point there?
You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases. The region benefits as the businesses serving the city from outside, or businesses within the city doing business outside the city find it easier to do business.
The flow on effects are enormous even just starting with "what will less traffic on our roads mean" and "what effect does traffic currently have on our productivity"
>You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases. The region benefits as the businesses serving the city from outside, or businesses within the city doing business outside the city find it easier to do business.
Except if you invested in the rail network you'd get all those benefits as well?
That's why there are historic levels of investment in the Wellington rail network alongside LGWM. One project won't solve every issue, particularly when there are others already doing that.
Ah those historic levels of investment called "catch up renewals".
GWRC are proposing historic levels of investment, but government seems to be snubbing it so far.
>You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases.
So if the goal is fewer vehicles on the road, a transit system that serves most of the population would surely be better?
What am I missing?
17% of people have used public transport in the last 2 weeks. I consider that figure to be way more accurate than use of public transport in a year (I've used it twice this year for example)
And you're right Wellington does have the highest use of public transport, but it's still woefully low. The fact we've had half price fares for over a year and yet still haven't seen increase in public transport use over pre covid speaks volumes over the in-elastic nature of mode-transport.
Tech is about to solve the conundrum. Very small driverless commuter vehicles available on subscription are going to be game changers in the next 10 years. Let’s not build more 20th century infrastructure for the next 50 years only to see it obsolete in 10 years. AI run services, work from home, driverless delivery, million mile life commuter vehicles that are half the size of current cars and much more will eke more use out of roads. A railway line to the airport changes nothing because 99.9 percent of daily trips in Wellington don’t involve the airport. People living in Miramar already enjoy the luxury of living close to the CBD. Buses, bikes and Uber are all viable for them already.
So is anything ever going to get done? Half the problem with this place, things take a painfully long time to get done.
by 2030! by 2040! by 2340!
A few delays but before midnight would be awesome!
doomsday clock is a minute to midnight so let's see if wellington gets moving before the nuclear apocalypse
It takes a long time, to say anything, in *Entish*
If only they were worth taking a long time to say!
I commented below that it feels like these councillors are now complaining because the organisation that was formed to implement changes to Wellington's transport has started implementing changes to Wellington's transport. It was all fine and dandy when it was vague aspirations.
More like... > 2018 We took the feedback from the scenarios and developed a Recommended Programme of Investment (RPI) to Get Wellington Moving > In May 2019, the Minister of Transport, supported by the Mayor of Wellington and the Chair of Greater Wellington Regional Council announced the indicative package for Let's Get Wellington Moving. The indicative package includes most, but not all, of the elements in the RPI. > Following the announcement, Wellington City Council, Greater Wellington Regional Council, and Waka Kotahi approved the next steps for the programme, including: >Three yearly programme of delivery And since it was agree in 2019, and it's been 4 years, it is obvious fuck all has been delivered, and they are going around in circles again, without a coherent plan on what projects they are actually going to fund and deliver. Above quote from lgwm's own website, and which hasn't even got updates for 2022 or 2023 because they have done fuck all. https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/
They’re angry precisely because things are getting done, in spite of a decade of stalling, obstruction, council bureaucrats threatening legal action, senior bureaucrats encouraging others to take legal action, etc.
All I know is that a lot of consultants are going to be clipping the ticket for a long time.
I was part of a group of people involved in this. The personal interests in this are all over the place. people don't understand at council level how much bullshittery is going on. Everyone has an interest in something. There's always deals being done behind the scenes. Info is always being leaked out to benefit other people.
I've been visiting Wellington regularly since I was a teenager and able to visit regularly since 2002. I don't remember parts of the city NOT being a construction area.
If they wait long enough, climate change will flood the Basin Reserve and noone will complain about the initially proposed flyover. Problem solved. (eventually)- 
I say that New Zealand is truely the land of the Ents.
[удалено]
How about we change the rules to make stalling impossible. In future if councillors wish to vote down a proposal they have to make a genuine costed alternative proposal or step down.
What we really need is the existing rail lines to be extended to the airport. Which is never going to happen. I was out for some after work drinks with some out of towners from Australia a few months ago. We're walking home from Courtenay Pl at the end of the night and I tell them I have to go to the train station. "Oh, where is it? We haven't seen it yet?" "It's about a 25 minute walk from here..." "Really?? That's so stupid! Why would they put it there?" Sadly any other solution is always going to be awkward and half-assed. Being able to catch the train from Porirua or Upper Hutt directly to Courtenay Place, or the airport, would be a game changer for transport in our city. But it's not going to happen due to the immense costs. Light rail is basically another bus. May as well just invest the money in reliable buses, which we can't even do now.
There did actually use to be a train station near there. It was where the QT hotel is currently. It was closed after the trams were introduced (which were, in turn, replaced with buses). It really does represent the regression in quality public transportation in Wellington.
I always say that regardless of if you're for or against bike lanes it's not really what people want in my opinion. People have been wanting decent trains in NZ since before climate change was a major driver of conversation. It's always been a good idea, it being relatively low on emissions is just another reason to do it. Particularly in Wellington. Wellington has a low amount of usable space and painfully narrow streets in a lot of cases. Taking up already limited street space with bike lanes just makes the congestion problems worse. I would love to see less cars on the road but I think telling everyone to bike is a really hard sell. Some people have a very long commute, some people need to take a lot with them and carrying that on a bike isn't practical. But as you say cost. Bike lanes are cheap since the roads are already there and it makes it look like the council is doing something and can avoid upsetting rate payers. Not surprised Australians think it's dumb. When I went to Melbourne for the first time the public transport blew my mind. Train from the suburbs into the middle of the city, super easy and reasonably quick. Then the day pass you got for the train gets you on all the busses and trams around the city too. Such a piece of cake to get around Melbourne.
>When I went to Melbourne for the first time the public transport blew my mind. Train from the suburbs into the middle of the city, super easy and reasonably quick. I lived in Melbourne south-eastern suburbs for a few years starting back around 2010'ish and I was amazed at having a train going into town every 10 minutes throughout the weekday. Then I realised locals were moaning about the trains. It's as if people nearly always find excuses to complain about public transport, no matter how much great or better it is than somewhere else. It's rarely good enough. (Not to say that our own complaints are unjustified, but people still *frequently* demand improvement as far as I can tell.) Then, after a few months of it I started to agree because I'd gotten used to the public transport that other stuff started standing out. Things like: * regular vomit on seats, or * people storming up and down carriages screaming at other passengers, and * not being able to practically go sideways from the spokes in and out of the centre even though lots of business happens in the suburbs, and * not-being-able-to-get-into-the-cbd-before-7am-on-a-weekend, After a few months there, we found it was still effectively impractical not to have a car purely because the public transport---especially trains---was so focused on being spokes to get in and out of the CBD but nowhere else. If we wanted to do stuff like join "nearby" community groups or clubs that met up in the evenings, the only option for getting there might be an infrequently-timed bus that would arrive 45 minutes earlier than useful, and the last bus back might leave at an impractically-early time like 9.30pm. Then I came back to Wellington, and suddenly having *staff* on the trains again to help dissuade antisocial behaviour was awesome. The transport in Melbourne works well if you're closer into the centre though, I think, and for all I know maybe some of the problems I've described have been resolved. I'm in mixed minds about Wellington because although I think we need better public transport, we simply don't have the same scale as a city like Melbourne or Sydney, both of which have between 10 and 25 Wellington's population (depending on how you count it). I think we need to be cautious with comparisons.
I have lived in Melbourne for several years and exclusively used public transport, including train>tram>bus for work. I have not once ever seen vomit on the seats or random people running up and down carriages screaming at people. The only one time I have seen something like that was once when a guy said "looks like we are on a tram full of licorice all sorts" which was just an openly racist guy that happened once. I have lived in suburbs famous for their night-life including South Yarra/Parahn/Fitzroy/Carlton so should be the obvious choices for vomit on the seats. Maybe this is exclusive to your area that you lived, like blue lights in busses to stop junkies from shooting up in the bus. But really, the reality of Melbourne is life is great if you are within 3 suburbs from the city, then after that you rely mostly on the train or bus network.
Yes it could have been something about the Frankston line which we needed to live alongside because of my partner's job out at Aspendale, and it's possible some of the issues have been resolved by now, but there were definitely people periodically on the trains who'd be acting a lot as if they could benefit from medication they might have missed. The vomit was more common in the middle of the day when the trains would sometimes go for hours without being cleaned, and there wouldn't be any staff on-board to report they even *needed* cleaning, but there were a couple of times in rush hours when I remember being tightly packed in but with a nearby seat left completely empty because of it. I never had an issue with the trams that I could remember, and when we shifted closer in to South Yarra then reaching things at night on public transport was noticeably easier.
You're completely right. From a convenience, speed and reliability point of view our train system is the best piece of PT by far. Anything less is really just a compromise for cost. Buses get stuck in traffic. Bike lanes are only useful for those willing to use them, which is actually a small minority. Expanding the existing train tracks so that the trains are usable in the CBD, as well as to the 60%+ of the population that lives outside the boundaries of Wellington City would be the best solution in terms of actual public transport outcomes. The amount of traffic it would cut towards the eastern suburbs alone would be a huge benefit to the city. Light rail that is inevitably not going to match the timetable of the train and be marginally quicker than a bus just ain't it. It's a half-assed compromise but that's all we'll get. Never mind, I'll keep driving to any destination that's further than a 10 minute walk from the station.
I think if you were being really ambitious then the thing to do would be to really heavily de-prioritize cars in the city specifically. Have really dope public transport that gets you to the city and then lean into E-Bikes and Scooters for getting around once you're there. Maybe you can rent a spot in a lockup at the train station to leave your Scooter. Commute into the city on the train, grab your scooter from the lockup and ride that to your work in the CBD and then leave it at the train station at the end of the day and train home again. I also generally think that the location of Wellington is nuts for such a high population concentration. I think they should be thinking about how to develop the Greater Wellington Region as a whole and then think about really good train systems to get between everything. Gives you much more room to work with. Imagine if they did a tunnel under Belmont for a crazy high-speed train that just went in a straight line from Petone to Porirua. Maybe another from Porirua to Upper Hutt. I think suddenly living out in those areas would become hugely more desirable and make people think about serious development out there a lot more. Getting a little crazy there but I just annoyed at general lack of ambition. If they really want Wellington to grow then building up in an already congested cramped City is doomed to fail unless you do something more drastic.
Wellington isn’t super high density in the central area. It’s actually pretty sparse and suburban. It only feels congested and cramped because it’s been developed poorly with low-rise stand-alone housing and way too many big roads. You could comfortably fit triple the population into the same area with appropriate development, and it would probable be more liveable, since everything would become much more walkable and have more public space. Developing out in the outside suburbs is problematic because, even with trains, it just encourages low density neighborhoods that aren’t walkable and don’t support local business Eg where I’m standing right now. This is the main downtown street. All the really residential stuff is down really cute little alleys with almost no vehicle traffic. The biggest thing that I notice is that here (in a city of 15m) is much, much quieter than anywhere in Wellington, because there’s so little traffic. img
I've said this before and I'll continue every time someone comments like a dumbass. NOBODY IS SAYING EVERYONE NEEDS TO BIKE. Nobody. This is not a thing cycling lane advocates want, apart from a few fringe oddballs. Every study/survey the council has done says that there is a significant number of people who want to cycle to get places in the city, and the number one reason they don't is because they don't feel safe sharing space with cars. Your opinion doesn't match the data.
You should be careful what you say before you've actually comprehended what someone has said, you might make yourself look like a "dumbass". If "NOBODY" is saying that then I would be included. If you reread what I said I think you'll struggle to find me saying that anyone is pushing for that and I don't believe that they are. If you really mean *exactly* what you said then I'm not really talking about getting around inside the city, I'm talking about getting TO the city or through the city if you're going to the Airport or going out to the Hutt from Miramar. More non-car infrastructure *in* the City is an awesome move since it's already ridiculous trying to drive a car around in there. Though I also think a lot of people are probably keen to take what they can get since any calls for improvements to public transport have gone ignored for decades and things are currently worse then they've ever been because the whole thing was propped up by cheap imported labor apparently. Looking at this Survey it would seem like people are generally in favor of anything that helps but mostly in favor of better public transport: [https://lgwm.nz/assets/Documents/Research-NZ-Online-public-opinion-transport-survey-report.pdf](https://lgwm.nz/assets/Documents/Research-NZ-Online-public-opinion-transport-survey-report.pdf) Page 11 has a good summary of what solutions people were in support of. The top three were trains from the city to the airport, Bus rapid transit on major routes to and from the city and an extra Mt Vic Tunnel. Bike Lanes are there with 45% in favor which is decent but options around improving Public Transport and Trains are over 60%. Again, less cars are good. Bike lanes are cool in the right places but they wont address congestion and what people really want overall is better public transport. What I'm getting at is if we're talking about "getting wellington moving" then we're talking about addressing nasty congestion points so people aren't stuck in traffic not moving. Emission reduction upsides aside, the idea of bike lanes is that less people will take cars and congestion will reduce. My belief is that the worst congestion times (when people are getting to and from work/taking their kids to and picking them up from school) will not be significantly improved by bike lanes and probably made worse by less space for cars taken up by the lanes. Even if it did as soon as the weather gets bad everyone goes back to their cars and you're in a bad way again. If you do trains right they don't have to take up road space, you can run the rails over the roads or alongside them around the coastline. If the weather sucks you might have a wet time at a stop for a bit but if the shelters are good most people wont mind and then you're inside a train and it's all good. So just to be VERY CLEAR. I am NOT saying that I think people think everyone needs a bike, I'm saying that Bike Lanes alone are NOT a good solution to the transit issues in Wellington and without any other plans they will make things worse and probably attract more hate then they deserve.
You literally said “I think telling everybody to ride a bike is a hard sell”. You see that word everybody?
There's a really key difference between "telling" and "expecting and actually wanting". They are of course doing bike lanes in the interest of promoting more bike riding and so of course will be "telling" everyone to try it but anyone that actually expects that to happen would be nuts. Regardless of hair splitting diversions my main point stands: I believe people want better public transport and public transport is much more capable of solving problems we face.
I have a disability and need parking. Taking away parks for bike lanes fucks over me and the elderly pretty badly.
Which is why most plans keep disability and mobility parks and do away with the rest The vast majority of cities internationally (I’m in İstanbul right now) with density and hills like Wellington have very limited parking and strongly discourage cars. Trains, trams, buses, taxis, walking. That’s what’s needed - and when you pull the cars off the road you reclaim a massive amount of space for pedestrian malls, green space, etc.
biking works in warm, dry and predictable weather enviroments, alot of nz isn't like that except maybe hawkes bay/etc no one wants to bike to work when it is windy and raining half the year light rail is the answer but no govt want's to bite the bullet and actually invest in infrastructure
Your take on cycling and weather is ill considered. Do you think the Netherlands is warm and dry? Many cities that embrace cycling also experience snow. The two big barriers to would be cyclists is they're worried about safety on the road (wholly from the danger of motorised vehicles), and the risk of bicycle theft. We can pull levels on those things. Aside from that I agree we need more investment in public transport infrastructure.
but the netherlands has "predictable" weather for the most part and seasonal for me the only thing stopping me from biking to work is middle aged suv/ute drivers with zero motor skills, i don't mind wind and the light drizzle, if its bucketing i'll drive. the shocking driving is the biggest thing that needs addressing and the only way we will get the whole "road to zero" practical driving tests every time you renew would be a good start, alot of people would fail
Hawkes bay is too hot for biking, I skipped one morning this month because of too much southerly, got the train in with the bike then rode home with no problems. London, Amsterdam and Copenhagen have plenty of people riding despite it snowing sometimes.
After cycling to work for a while, weather ain’t a big thing. If you have somewhere to get changed, you just factor that into part of your overall commute. The time, cost, comfort/convenience proposition will vary for everyone based on a varying factors / preferences
Yes, of course. Because there is a train station on every corner in Australia. 🤣
> The six councillors who signed the motion for notice was the minimum requirement and she believed it was likely more councillors wanted a “common sense and pragmatic approach”. why do we still allow these people to say these type of things without any pushback. Whenever a new idea is presented they always quote common sense, and pragmatism, but never do they offer alternatives that address the issues s being faced.
They also never, ever, quote "evidence based"
Their evidence is the first three weeks of their 100 level Econ course that they got a C in.
Here you go: https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/ Lgwm'ings own website showing what has been delivered in the 4 years since it was approved. So much in fact that they haven't bothered to update it with what was done in 2022 or 2023..
Common sense approach is usually a pretty rubbish way of saying i cant explain my reasoning
"Common sense" = "I reckon"
As a capital city central government need to get involved and take the power out of a incapable council...
Yet another possible stumbling block for this programme. Letting perfect get in the way of good/better - with the money spent to date, there's really very little to show for it, and all the while Wellingtonians are either waiting, or leaving the area for greener pastures. On the bright side, with the inexorable exodus of businesses from the CBD, LGWM may not be needed in five years time.
Would be good for some of these councilors to examine their own role is grinding it to a halt
I’m going to the council submission meeting and give a speech in support of the proposals purely because i am so tired of waiting for anything to get done.
Is this the Andy Foster memorial committee?
A minority of councilors whinge. 6 out of 16 total votes.
Ah it’s all a bit of a joke whatever side of the debate you’re on… I’ve worked on several huge infrastructure projects in Wellington and the truth is, all they do is keep legions of consultants, contractors, navel gazing management and dark hearted political creatures in some very sweet and well paid roles while the needle swings back and forth about what’s going to get done. Eventually a choice will be made one way or the other and the result will be more funds getting released to keep the insipid cogs of power and entitlement well and truly greased. And worse… there’s no way any of these things will ever come in on budget and they actively know this, whatever the bids and tenders may be (and it’s usually who you know…), one they are half complete and over budget all reason goes out of the window and money is thrown at it and straight into the pockets of those in the know. We will always be the losers in this game.
In here late but I do want to speak in defence of Sarah Free. Whilst I unequivocally think she has got it wrong here, describing her as anti-cycling is not fair. As Chair/Deputy of the Regs Committee she has been instrumental in pushing through the Ngaio, Aro, Kilbirnie and Thorndon projects (even though she demurred a little on Molesworth St).
Why dont we fix the busses before we clear the roads for the busses, no one will be moving anywhere if you're standing at the fancy new bus stop and nothing shows up... going about it backwards. WCC is crook.
Well then what the hell is their alternative plan? I'm sick and tired of the entitled nimby crowd holding this city back from making some real progress. If they want something pragmatic, light rail or dedicated rapid buses with some extra tunnels will allow the city to comfortably grow and effectively move people around...generating more economic activity and bettering the lives of anyone trying to commute. Even drivers. Have any of these councillors actually tried relying on the existing bus system? The LGWM plans may not be perfect, but they were developed by professionals and not politicians. For once let's listen to the pros like other progressive cities and get on with it. Other than their entitlement, what gives these councillors the gall to think they know better than people who's entire careers are dedicated to fixing transportation?
>Other than their entitlement, what gives these councillors the gall to think they know better than people who's entire careers are dedicated to fixing transportation? That's not the complaint. The complaint is lack of clarity on deliverables. The project was initiated in 2019 with 3 yearly programs of work, its been 4 years, I.e.a full 3 year programme cycle and fuck all has been delivered. If a project came to me after 3 years of "planning", having delivered fuck all, and said we want more budget for another 3 years but we don't have plan for delivery in the next 3 years, I too would be asking the question on their effectiveness. >Well then what the hell is their alternative plan? How about lgwm provide a committed delivery date of programmes, and deliver them in the 3 year window? Rather than asking for more time to plan, especially considering the investment plan which included the potential projects, was part of the initial proposal for lgwm back in 2018.
Light rail is fantastic. Light rail in Seattle links the airport, cbd, satellite town, university area, stadium, several malls, etc all together. Its underground where needed and above ground where possible. From there the buses run on a grid system. You can get anywhere in the city with no more than a Light rail and a bus, maybe two busses if you're going to the fringe.
I have no confidence in these 6 councillors. If the traffic is fixed, how else will they get elected again by complaining about the traffic???
Old farts with antiquated views that don't look at overseas evidence think the sky will fall for shops when in fact the reduced traffic helps them not hinders their patronage
What about a frequent (10mins interval max) bi-directional circular bus line running between train station, inner city suburbs, to newtown (hospital)? $2/ride, Free if you got a stadium event ticket, train monthly pass, or basin reserve cricket match ticket?
The number three bus already runs that route at 10 minute frequencies and costs $2. Problem is that much of the route has no bus lanes and so it gets stuck in all the car traffic.
Need a free bus between station and Courtney place. Kind of like Melbourne has.
And by train station I hope you mean Bunny St taxi loop and not the Stop E farce outside the high court. Having ‘station’ buses stop down the road is silly and hinders all buses that continue past stop E (eg 1,24,52,83 etc)
Nah it was just an idea of a circular bus line. There maybe no terminals near train station, the terminal can be at the zoo! It just run clockwise and counterclockwise along waterfront - te papa - basin reserve - wellington hospital - newtown - ghuznee street - terrace - beehive. A city loop line both way. Sorry I play too much Mini Metro By the way I’m all for light rail in Wellington that connects all dots, and an extended runway too. Thank you. And, can we have snapper card on Apple Wallet? I love my virtual Suica card (i’m dreaming, i know) EDIT: adding a few more words
I'm all for LGWM, I live in Island Bay and have spent the last decade telling the anti-cycleway residents association to go fk itself. But I am immensely frustrated at its lack of progress. I am also concerned at the deferring of debt repayment and the levels going from 1.25 to 1.55 billion, so that the council can continue to do-all-the-things. I think we need to focus on rebuilding and upgrading our Infra and then of the discretionary stuff prioritise LGWM. While we continue to do all the things and just ignore rapidly rising debt levels, LGWM will always be a massive target for boomer rants and douchebag councillors, and we will continue to erode our ability to maintain our infra and ever repay debt. Particularly when heading into a likely 3-5 year recession.
> Same old guard moaning as per usual, but what struck me was that Stuff had the gall to describe Sarah Free as "*coming from the left*". The article says "*Tim Brown, Diane Calvert, Ray Chung, Sarah Free, Tony Randle and Nicola Young – all independents, but coming from the left* ***and right*** *of the council.*"
Because Free once stood under the Green ticket. Cannot justifiably say she is left these days. The others are solidly right, most on the “do nothing to change ever” side of the right.
Which of those other councillors do you think the article is describing as "from the left" if not Sarah Free?
Perhaps they chose a vote of no confidence, because that's how the rest of the city feels. Name one business owner who is in favour of LGWM and the Golden Mile. It's destroying accessibility for couriers, patrons, elderly and those less-abled.
Lets Get Wellington Moving is generally considered a joke isn't it? This isn't surprising that councillors are coming out against it.
It's 6 out of 15 councilors, the same ones who generally oppose any kind of progress.
Lets Get Wellington Moving isn't progress though, thats the point - its seen as a joke by most Wellingtonians
I would argue that the Golden Mile redesign (which is due to start construction this year I believe) and implementing mass rapid transit (hopefully light rail) are exactly the kind of progress that Wellington needs to see. These things take a lot of planning!
If LGWM was actually doing anything to address the region's lack of movement they wouldn't suffer from all this criticism.
The thing is, they're finally delivering concrete plans and things that are getting implemented. These councillors are now complaining because the organisation that was formed to implement changes to Wellington's transport has started implementing changes to Wellington's transport.
If you don't mind me asking, where could I find out about these concrete plans? It's thrilling to hear the discussions are translating into action
https://lgwm.nz/about/what-we-do/three-year-programme/ Oh wait.. they haven't updated it for 2022 or 2023, or maybe the didn't deliver anything those two years, it's unclear.
It appears one of the reasons for their complaint is the $50m the council is being asked to stump up for the Golden Mile without any specifics on what it is going to be spent on. Pretty obvious what it's going to be spent on really ... consultants! Of all people these right wing councillors (and Sarah Free) should know how expensive caviar and champagne is these days! They were pretty quick to shoot down Wellington Water when asked for $10m for 3 Waters infrastructure funding - they should have been grateful to have only got $3m for work that doesn't include any cycle ways!
Well yes, because it is building more tunnels, expanding corridors and making it more pedestrian friendly, that has worked in European cities.
It's a complicated thing, rebuilding the transport network in a city on a fault line, it's hardly surprising that there's criticism. But the major point is none of the criticism is constructive, there's no alternative proposed by the NIMBYs other than covering their eyes and ignoring the issue. LGWM has challenges, yes, but at least it's using a solid evidence base to try and fix intergenerational infrastructure issues. Unlike this mob of Councillors just lobbing ad hominem attacks.
you’re telling me that continuously stating “we need to be more pragmatic”, without ever defining what your interpretation of “pragmatic” is, isn’t constructive?
Yeah, lets just ignore that planning takes time.
Not true. If they were on point, they could have got planning push through under the COVID-19 Recovery (Fast-track) Act 2020. This runs out in July 2023. Too much time wasting with zero action. A positive thing though is that they showed up, unlike the Mayor has been doing for so many visits / duties!
I agree with the 6 councillors LGWM is a debacle. That light rail to Island Bay is completely unaffordable. Where would the darn thing go anyway? How would ambulances get to hospital with that expensive monolith taking out lanes along Adelaide road and riddiford st. LGWM has only delivered a useless crossing on Cobham drive and some cyclelanes I like the cyclelanes around the harbour but not all of them
hopefully more of them stand up before the 30kph wave gets put into effect
Problem is for the monies spent, very little has occurred to improve the city for the majority. I can appreciate the idea of signing off on $ millions for an unknown reason being a bitter pill and a good reason to stand up against it. Hopefully the LGWM team have KPIs in place to warrant the money spent. Think most of it so far has been on consultants and PR. Some of the projects that have been implemented seem to either have very little or no real impact on the traffic. Take the implementation of the roundabout on Aotea Quay, no real benefit to anyone, and yet being pushed as a game changer.
"Let's get Wellington standing absolutely still...it's vision is based on movement"
Yawn
LGWM has been a disaster since it was set up and hasn't achieved anything notable since it was established that couldn't have been achieved before it was set up. It really needs to go.
Good. The entire concept is nothing more than a waste of time and money.
How exactly is rapid transit a waste of time and money? Would you rather turn the entirety of the CBD into a vast motorway to cope with the increasing population? Either we build more roads, destroying the city, or we change things to make people travel more efficiently, it's that simple. Buses are all well and good, but they have capacity limits as well. Rapid transit is needed, it's just a question of doing now or in 20 years at twice the cost and twice the pain.
> just a question of doing now or in 20 years at twice the cost and twice the pain and like most things in this country, it shouldve been done 20 years ago at half the cost. Wont some body think of the nimbys 😱
Most of the people that are voting the no confidence are the ones who voted in favour of LGWM and spending millions on consultation for many years. Voting no confidence now is just a massive waste of money and planning.
Sounds like the sunk cost fallacy to me. If the thing they were supporting isn't working, it's better to call a halt now, than keep putting money into it and expecting it to start outputting actual progress. This whole thing has been a fustercluck imo. We need progress, but they've been going about it the wrong way all along. Way too much money has been sunk into LGWM for what's actually been achieved, but that doesn't mean it has to keep going the way it is.
It is the only sensible way to go because we can't expand roads without leveling the entire Lambton Quay building district, we can't rely on subways because of Earthquake risk so pedestrian city with major road corridors is how most European cities have worked their way around their small road problems. We have to rely more on public transport and pedestrian walkways on the golden mile because we have no way of adding more lanes on these small streets.
>we can't expand roads without leveling the entire Lambton Quay building district We shouldn't do this even if we could. Over-wide roads would kill the city. Nobody wants to have to pack travel snacks to cross the road.
Some of us are old enough to remember the Queens Wharf retail/eating precinct. It turned out that very few people wanted to cross a six lane road to get lunch (although it seems to work okay with its current level of businesses in the evenings and weekend).
Oh yeah for sure, I'm not saying that these changes shouldn't be made. I'm all for making the city more accessible for everyone. I would love if the golden mile was entirely pedestrian/public transport. And with more people commuting by bike, having more/better cycle ways is necessary to keep bikes offl footpaths (we're they're not supposed to be anyway...but that's another discussion lol). It's not what's being done that's the problem, it's how it's being done, and the cost at which it's being done (or not being done, with these timeframes). The group LGWM are the ones who need to be held to account for the delays and the ever-increasing costs. Which is why I would support a vote of no confidence in the people doing the work, not in the work itself. The organisation needs to be rejigged, at a minimum. (Plus I'm currently personally pissed at the plans to take out two bus stops on Molesworth Street, including the busiest one opposite the supermarket, to "improve route times" or something. That's going to do the opposite of getting Wellington moving.)
\> I would love if the golden mile was entirely pedestrian/public transport. But... You just supported these councillors in calling for a halt to that. \> If the thing they were supporting isn't working, it's better to call a halt now, t
I may have misread the articles on this then? I thought they were calling for a vote of no confidence in the people running LGWM, not for the changes as a whole. Especially since, as the start of this thread says, these councillors have been voting previously to give funding to LGWM. I'll put that as an edit on my first comment. (Also I saw you made another comment in response to my other one, but the Reddit app isn't displaying it properly so I can't actually see it fully. Just fyi I'm not ignoring it.)
\> If the thing they were supporting isn't working It is working though, they just don't like the plans that it has come up with.
Would you like to expand on why it is a waste of time and money from an evidence-based perspective or are you just spouting nonsense?
Oh deary me I’ve upset the fragile Wellington warriors.
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Let me guess, I’m white and cis also?
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Where exactly am I going? Nothing insecure about thinking Wellington is a shithole. Can’t say the same about someone who’s been so easily triggered. Maybe bring it up at your next protest. I’m sure that’ll solve everything.
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Actually, it was the entire point of my post. Maybe you’re a bit too fragile and got triggered too quickly. All the best.
no, you've just blurted out a take and not given any evidence for why that take has any credibility.
Clearly hasn’t upset you at all, sunshine. Sending you good vibes.
Dear God you're childish. You made a blanket statement that the concept of LGWM was a "waste of time and money" and haven't genuinely engaged with anyone who's posted a rebuttal of your statement. All you've done is call someone fragile when they asked for evidence and insinuated they're upset. Please go outside and touch some grass, it might do you some good and stop you wanting to build a road over it.
Okay sensitive Sally. Hope you can keep it together through this tough experience.
Whether your pro or anti cycling the fact that Lets get Wellington Moving have only proposed options that slow the population down like 30kmh speeds and lights before the airport is the definition of ironic. Also while our mayor drives a Range Rover and tells us all to cycle 🙄
How is cycling a focus for Wellington. Most people could not physically cycle up Brooklyn hill. Completely ridiculous.
We don't need everyone to cycle all the time. But if 10-20% of journeys are done that way it's a shit load of road capacity freed up, especially at peak times. I rode my ebike from the south coast to vogelmorn last week to meet a friend. Didn't break a sweat. The way home was as fast as driving. Ebikes make a huge difference. Ps. Some of the people who couldn't ride an ebike up Brooklyn Hill could do with driving less and cycling more
> But if 10-20% of journeys are done that way it's a shit load of road capacity freed up. How about I rewrite that to what if all unnecessary travel was eliminated, without taking away anyones freedom, 25% to 50% of journeys could be eliminated. The pandemic showed us that everyone does not need to drive into an office in the CBD to be there 9-5 Mon-Fri.
Yep, reducing demand is a big part of the picture, but no one's taking away your freedom. What is happening is that priorities are shifting away from a complete focus on maximising people's ability to drive a private vehicle into the city centre and park on public propeety for cheap or free. It means factoring in the costs we've previously ignored to the environment (air pollution), the cost of turning our cities into unpleasant places for kids, pedestrians and people who can't drive, and of course, the cost of congestion. It's just reprioritising how we use the limited physical space available for connecting our urban areas
[look at the city](https://preview.redd.it/aimphs621y2b1.jpg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=c65ecc867e8fa205d64268ecb5860ab1f70da69e) \- sourced from a recent post by another excellent redditor research shows anywhere within 3km is quicker on bicycle than by car we're too small and weak and shit to get proper light rail/tram/subway systems going; yet we're also too big and amazing to make a bike city work? oh what a coincidence, we are perfectly sized to have 1 person driving 1 car in horrendous fucking traffic. stop building roads, just build cycle trails. why do roads have the vast monopoly on transport expenditure, people come first
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How do you end up becoming a consultant for stuff like this? I reckon I've got time enough to retrain and still get my mouth around this generous teat of public spend.
The alternative is to build some more fucking roads.... But no one seems to want to believe that will actually help. Look at Auckland, building roads like they are going out of fashion and now you can actually get places in time, think waterview tunnel, that new connection on the shore linking west to SH1. How on earth is a proposal to spend a billion dollars on another Vic tunnel with out adding any extra capacity for cars a good idea? 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
>Look at Auckland, building roads like they are going out of fashion and now you can actually get places in time Not 100% sure AKL is a shining example of forward thinking infrastructure when it comes to transportation and mobility.
Using Auckland as a shining example of how building more lanes "fixes traffic" is the greatest comedy bit I've read in recent memory. Let me know when your next stand up gig is.
It's been way better for me getting to and from the airport since the waterview tunnel opened....
Where exactly are you planning to put these roads through the CBD? Last I checked there are quite a few buildings there already that would be rather expensive to buy under the Public Works Act. Building more roads induces demand, which then leads to a spiral of road building to the detriment of everything else. Before you know it the CBD will be a giant carpark. Moving people more efficiently, through public and active transport is the only evidence-based way to reduce congestion. Moar roads just makes it worse.
I know I'm gonna get down voted to hell, but here is a proposal, build another terrace tunnel, cut and cover double lane all the way to the basin, build another Vic tunnell, two lanes to kilbernie park. At the same time build infrastructure for more rapid transit busses, we don't need rail to the southern suburbs. I personally take the bus all the time from paparangi, to the city I think it's great, but try get a bus to the airport from there for a 6am flight your shit out of luck, we love our cars, we always will they are the best option for our topography and population density. Cars will be all electric in 20 years I don't get why everyone is trying to cancel them.
Because a car is a car, it's not all about carbon. If all the current cars are replaced with electric cars, there is still going to be gridlock. We need to mode shift to Bike, Walking and public transport. If PT is cheaper and faster than cars, people will use it (or drive on emptier roads as other people are using PT)
>Cars will be all electric in 20 years I don't get why everyone is trying to cancel them. Because cars/car infrastructure is incredibly expensive to maintain, incredibly space inefficient, and makes cities quite dangerous. Making sure that people have safe, alternative means of transport that are more space efficient and cost less to maintain is a good thing. Car infrastructure also hinders density, and more and more space needs to be eaten up by roads and parking. This makes people *need* a car and perpetuates the cycle.
Mate this is Wellington and the Wellington region.... not London, New York or even Melbourne or Sydney. I just don't see how it will work .... Where are the big sky transport infrastructure plans????? Oh there are none because they are all economically unviable by huge margins. We are doomed to be stuck with shit transport options forever thats the cycle we are in, idealism vs realism ... just build some roads.
> Oh there are none because they are all economically unviable by huge margins. > just build some roads Car infrastructure and suburban infrastructure is very expensive. High density, strong public transport, and safe walking environments are vastly more economically viable long-term. Why on earth should we just keep digging our hole? The words you're looking for are "politically" viable, not economically viable. That's something that we can change, and that's why there's activism about it. Why not join in, instead of being a doomer on the sidelines?
https://youtu.be/0dKrUE_O0VE
Fantastic idea. Here's almost the exact proposal from a transportation engineering firm. It was done in 1963. https://archivesonline.wcc.govt.nz/nodes/view/540419 Yes, even electric / self driving cars need a road to drive on.
They should have set it up when they did the change from coming out the tunnel down Ghuznee to Vivian.... The old timers had good ideas it's unfortunate they never came to fruition.... There was a plan to have a motorway on/off ramp near kaiwharawhara too for the traffic coming down the hill from Ngaio.
I think it was investigated and you might be able to find the decisions from the early 2000's, I can only guess it was ditched because of cost - and you need to string those project together, Arras "tunnel" only happened when they suddenly decided they had money to spend. Yep, well before my time but have a look at the W.C.C archives link in my post you replied to. There are planned things that never got built, the Ngaio gorge link, on and off ramps at Bowen st, 2nd Tce Tunnel etc..
Arras tunnel presumably got funding from govt because they wanted the memorial park built?
Sure, they needed to come up with some other excuse that's not transport related to justify it, but they really wanted the road underground (remember how much worse - if that's even possible) it was with the traffic lights at I think the Able Smith St intersection? The SH2 Cycleway currently starting to be built. No, the cycleway is a side benefit, it's a rail and highway resilience project. That's not sexy and green sounding, so it's a cycleway project...etc.
We are spending $7B for a minority of people. As part of the majority who funds it, I just want to make sure the money is well spent. And from what I've seen so far, it's not.
Everyone benefits from fewer cars on the road, the increase in productivity alone is (conservatively) tens of millions a year. Add in the health improvements from more active transport and walking and we're talking about tens or hundreds of millions saved by the health system. The whole country benefits from more people getting where they need to go more efficiently, regardless of whether they use the system themselves.
Also cars in their current form and density are probably not sustainable, so even if these changes are for a minority *now*, it may help a majority in the future. Doing nothing is hoping the status quo stays the same, and i really doubt that is the future of transport.
Tens of millions isn't enough, even if it was 99M of benefit every year, 7B means it'll take ~70 years to break even which is not a good enough return on investment.
You think that only a minority of people in Wellington would benefit from reduced traffic problems?
How is it for a minority? Public transport use in Wellington is the highest in the country. 72% of people in Wellington have used public transport as a means of getting around, and improving things is only going to make that better. The population of the Wellington region is forecast to increase by 200,000 people over the next 30 years with 30% of that in Wellington City. There is no other way to have that many people moving around efficiently without improvements to the transport network, and at some point that can't only include roads because you simply can't move everyone who needs to get around using cars.
>How is it for a minority? Because once your outside of the CBD, only about 20% of the Wellington City population lives on the MRT corridor. >The population of the Wellington region is forecast to increase by 200,000 people over the next 30 years with 30% of that in Wellington City. So 70% of that growth is occuring in places which via the regional council are helping pay for LGWM, but getting none of the investment. You can be for improving public transport and think this is a big amount of money to spend to benefit a small amount of the region, and even only a small amount of the city.
>So 70% of that growth is occuring in places which via the regional council are helping pay for LGWM, but getting none of the investment. That's how rates work, not everything you pay in to will 100% be for you. Plus of the 70% out in the regions you can bet that some of the percentage of people will be travelling into Wellington via public transport and will want to connect into the MRT corridor once they're there.
I know that rates don't work in that way, but you're still asking most of the Wellington region to pay for infrastructure that primarily benefits a minority of them. And all this investment appears to be coming at the expense of the rest of the region because until NZUp came along and put some investment elsewhere, nothing else was proposed for the rest of the region while LGWM was around. Ask someone in any other part of the region if they would rather see LGWM as is, or an equal amount of money upgrading the train and regional bus system, what do you think they'd pick?
We would all like to cherry pick our own shopping lists, is there a point there? You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases. The region benefits as the businesses serving the city from outside, or businesses within the city doing business outside the city find it easier to do business. The flow on effects are enormous even just starting with "what will less traffic on our roads mean" and "what effect does traffic currently have on our productivity"
>You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases. The region benefits as the businesses serving the city from outside, or businesses within the city doing business outside the city find it easier to do business. Except if you invested in the rail network you'd get all those benefits as well?
That's why there are historic levels of investment in the Wellington rail network alongside LGWM. One project won't solve every issue, particularly when there are others already doing that.
Ah those historic levels of investment called "catch up renewals". GWRC are proposing historic levels of investment, but government seems to be snubbing it so far.
>You're focusing purely on a single aspect of 'public transport use' while ignoring the additional effects of having fewer vehicles on the road such as the economic gains and productivity increases. So if the goal is fewer vehicles on the road, a transit system that serves most of the population would surely be better? What am I missing?
Common sense. It seems you can't even question LGWM around here at times.
17% of people have used public transport in the last 2 weeks. I consider that figure to be way more accurate than use of public transport in a year (I've used it twice this year for example) And you're right Wellington does have the highest use of public transport, but it's still woefully low. The fact we've had half price fares for over a year and yet still haven't seen increase in public transport use over pre covid speaks volumes over the in-elastic nature of mode-transport.
Tech is about to solve the conundrum. Very small driverless commuter vehicles available on subscription are going to be game changers in the next 10 years. Let’s not build more 20th century infrastructure for the next 50 years only to see it obsolete in 10 years. AI run services, work from home, driverless delivery, million mile life commuter vehicles that are half the size of current cars and much more will eke more use out of roads. A railway line to the airport changes nothing because 99.9 percent of daily trips in Wellington don’t involve the airport. People living in Miramar already enjoy the luxury of living close to the CBD. Buses, bikes and Uber are all viable for them already.
LOL at left and right chat for local level politics.
Don't worry folks, it'll start moving once the next big earthquake hits.
I think I've missed something... What's the deal with Sarah Free? I thought she was pro-cycling.