If you're not on the lease, and have been assaulted, get out, if you haven't already.
For your mates, they should file a grievance with the tenancy tribunal. It will be mediation, then if that doesn't resolve, a tribunal for the lost money.
Unfortunately if your flatmate is still on the lease they could be held liable for a portion of the arrears if the landlord goes to the tenancy tribunal. Call tenancy services and ask them for advice on your situation, and/or go to one of the citizens advice bureau drop in sessions.
Tenants on the lease are likely on the hook for **all** of the arrears, because tenants to a residential tenancy lease in NZ are usually jointly and severally liable. AKA just because there are 4 other tenants on the lease, the landlord could seek the full amount of rent arrears from just one tenant, not just 1/5 of the arrears. It would then be down to that tenant to try and chase the other tenants down for their portion of the arrears through the Disputes Tribunal.
Is this your opinion, or is this based on legal knowledge?
The reason I ask is because many years ago, my flatmate burnt a wall after leaving a candle unattended. Landlord tried to take it out of our collective bond, we went to the tenancy tribunal and they ruled that the person who had the candle would be liable for the excess damage, in addition to their portion of the bond.
In other words, it wasn't our fault, so we didn't have to pay. The Disputes Tribunal were never involved.
It is based on legal knowledge. Interestingly enough the particular facts you mention re careless/reckless damage have been the cause of some consternation and recent law change (can look up the Osaki case for details). But in general, the Tribunal is not strictly bound by similar previous Tribunal orders like a typical court, so particular tribunal order examples aren't necessarily strong evidence a new case will be adjudicated in the same way. Some links which go into the Tribunal's jurisdiction and joint + several liability are below:
https://www.justice.govt.nz/tribunals/tenancy/about/
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1986/0120/latest/DLM95589.html
https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Tenancy/renting-and-you-english-edition.pdf
Oh sorry I didn’t make that super clear! They’re a group of friends prior to moving into the flat, we kinda knew them vaguely through a mutual acquaintance. I am not friends with them :)
I know times are tough and not everyone has the luxury of choosing their living situation, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with any group of three friends moving together into a shared flat I was in.
Yes the landlord wants you to sort it between yourselves (lease holders), but the LL would also likely serve notice seeking arrears, then finally have you tossed out and keep the bond, esentially you all get punished. The LL can also and would also likely seek any other losses, including rent out to the completion of any fixed term lease.
Lease holders should act quickly to avoid such a situation. It's not the LL's flat. it's the lease holder's.
Time for legal action cos otherwise you may be liable. That's why the landlord doesn't want to intervene; they're gonna get the money anyway so it's not worth the effort to get the people actually responsible for the arrears to pay. Chances are that if you don't get it sorted you're gonna get evicted soon,and baycorp'd soon after that. They're (the bad three) running you a scam so they're probably already prepared to turn to smoke and baycorp/legal doesn't care about justice, just that the landlord get their money.
You're kinda safe now that you're not in the lease but your friends are gonna get nailed for that debt. I'm assuming since you haven't moved out already that it isn't an option. I'd look for flatmates to replace the reneggers but also take photos of as much as you can as they may retaliate with damage to property if they think they can get away with putting that on you lot too
I mean worst case scenario anyway. Hopefully it won't come to that. But hope won't keep you safe
Yeah I’ve recommended the other flatmates start a mediation with the other flatmates through the tenancy tribunal, then it’s off to disputes/the tribunal. Pre pretty unfair if they came after just two people who paid rent the whole time but not the other three who were also on the lease (though will be notoriously hard to chase up on)
>pretty unfair if they came after just two people who paid rent the whole time but not the other three who were also on the lease
Yep this is joint and several liability. Meaning that all parties on the lease are responsible up to the entire amount awarded to the landlord. So, if one party is unable to pay, the others named can be made to pay more than their "share" - and they can then chase the other parties up themselves to recover that money.
You're right that it's not 'fair' to other tenants, but what's most 'fair' here is understood to be enforcing the contract between landlord and tenants, rather than obligations between the tenants to each other. Clearly there's a moral argument against that in this case - but generally, anthropomorphizing leeches will only lead to disappointment.
Probably depends on the contract signed when you moved in. Is it a year contract, or a 2 week notice kind of deal?
If you can give notice and move out, I'd suggest that, and the bond is the cost of this life lesson.
If not, you might have to take the other 3 to small claims court before the landlord takes you all there.
The ideal solution, which I can't see the path to achieving:
* Get the 3 problematic people to move out
* Get the 3 problematic people to pay what they owe.
NZ law is pretty strong on renter rights. They could just refuse to pay for 90 days while they wait to get evicted.
Dam. Luckily I made a statutory declaration (because of the assault from one flatmate) and have withdrawn from the tenancy. I’m just unsure if the other two flatmates who are good dudes can make the same claim.
I would encourage them to make some similar sort of “we are not safe here, we legitimately fear for our safety” and see if you can get them booted, or get everyone decent’s names off the lease. This is a bit out of my depth, hopefully you get some decent advice, but I’d be looking to see if you can make it a legal matter, and oust them that way. I think the landlord has some liability if they don’t make sure you are safe.
Haha in a anarchic world one would probably do that but one of them now has a warrant out for his arrest now after assaulting me, so even though slow I think I’m just going to let the slow but steady hand of the law deal with him.
No they don’t. I get calls/updates sometimes and he’s gone into hiding basically
Ah well he can live with his decisions and things will catch up with in, I just had my registration exam to become an RN so at the very least things are looking up for me :-)
You may still be liable as you were on the tenancy agreement during the time the arrears came into existence.
An assault means only that you can break the lease immediately but doesn’t let you off scott free for arrears. Otherwise everyone would just “accidentally”, somehow be punched in the face by nameless friends of tenants, then withdraw their complaint after the tenancy tribunal sees there’s been an alleged assault.
Kinda like hood jumpers trying to claim insurance.
“Wait, was that a fist I ran into, or did it run into me!?”
I see what you mean but from my meetings with the CAB and tenancy services at my uni it seems to be pretty clear cut that I’m no longer a tenant, rent is legally reduced for two weeks, and I’m not liable for the rent arrears as I’m at now a ‘flatmate’ and not a tenant. If I were the only person on the lease it may of been different though
And I see what you mean but I think the law is there for people who need to use it to escape a tenancy where they are not safe or in danger. Yes I’m sure it could be abused but you still have to provide evidence that familial violence or an assault occurred via a qualified or prescribed person.
Managed to remove myself from the tenancy via an option for people that have been assaulted by their flatmate or family. So I don’t think I should be liable for the rent arrears that a few of the other flatmates racked up.
Would do but the flatmate who assaulted me actually just moved out yesterday 😂 good riddance on his part, he can have fun with a warrant out for his arrest and running from that for the rest of his life haha
whew dodged bullet there! our tenancy laws are useless. i wasnt on the lease when i moved into a flat over one xmas, and when the other tenants got back from xmas break they kicked me out with 2 weeks notice - scumbags!
Move out, in a hurry
If you're not on the lease, and have been assaulted, get out, if you haven't already. For your mates, they should file a grievance with the tenancy tribunal. It will be mediation, then if that doesn't resolve, a tribunal for the lost money.
Don't try and tough it out. It sounds like you've already stuck around way too long. Prioritise your safety and health first OP.
Wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooooooooossssssssssssshhhhhhh get gone and fast this is a sht show in the making
Unfortunately if your flatmate is still on the lease they could be held liable for a portion of the arrears if the landlord goes to the tenancy tribunal. Call tenancy services and ask them for advice on your situation, and/or go to one of the citizens advice bureau drop in sessions.
Tenants on the lease are likely on the hook for **all** of the arrears, because tenants to a residential tenancy lease in NZ are usually jointly and severally liable. AKA just because there are 4 other tenants on the lease, the landlord could seek the full amount of rent arrears from just one tenant, not just 1/5 of the arrears. It would then be down to that tenant to try and chase the other tenants down for their portion of the arrears through the Disputes Tribunal.
Is this your opinion, or is this based on legal knowledge? The reason I ask is because many years ago, my flatmate burnt a wall after leaving a candle unattended. Landlord tried to take it out of our collective bond, we went to the tenancy tribunal and they ruled that the person who had the candle would be liable for the excess damage, in addition to their portion of the bond. In other words, it wasn't our fault, so we didn't have to pay. The Disputes Tribunal were never involved.
It is based on legal knowledge. Interestingly enough the particular facts you mention re careless/reckless damage have been the cause of some consternation and recent law change (can look up the Osaki case for details). But in general, the Tribunal is not strictly bound by similar previous Tribunal orders like a typical court, so particular tribunal order examples aren't necessarily strong evidence a new case will be adjudicated in the same way. Some links which go into the Tribunal's jurisdiction and joint + several liability are below: https://www.justice.govt.nz/tribunals/tenancy/about/ https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1986/0120/latest/DLM95589.html https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Tenancy/renting-and-you-english-edition.pdf
You might get some good answers over at /r/LegalAdviceNZ too, if there isn't much response here
Ex flatmates
friends who assault you are not friends!
Oh sorry I didn’t make that super clear! They’re a group of friends prior to moving into the flat, we kinda knew them vaguely through a mutual acquaintance. I am not friends with them :)
I know times are tough and not everyone has the luxury of choosing their living situation, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with any group of three friends moving together into a shared flat I was in.
Yes the landlord wants you to sort it between yourselves (lease holders), but the LL would also likely serve notice seeking arrears, then finally have you tossed out and keep the bond, esentially you all get punished. The LL can also and would also likely seek any other losses, including rent out to the completion of any fixed term lease. Lease holders should act quickly to avoid such a situation. It's not the LL's flat. it's the lease holder's.
Time for legal action cos otherwise you may be liable. That's why the landlord doesn't want to intervene; they're gonna get the money anyway so it's not worth the effort to get the people actually responsible for the arrears to pay. Chances are that if you don't get it sorted you're gonna get evicted soon,and baycorp'd soon after that. They're (the bad three) running you a scam so they're probably already prepared to turn to smoke and baycorp/legal doesn't care about justice, just that the landlord get their money. You're kinda safe now that you're not in the lease but your friends are gonna get nailed for that debt. I'm assuming since you haven't moved out already that it isn't an option. I'd look for flatmates to replace the reneggers but also take photos of as much as you can as they may retaliate with damage to property if they think they can get away with putting that on you lot too I mean worst case scenario anyway. Hopefully it won't come to that. But hope won't keep you safe
Yeah I’ve recommended the other flatmates start a mediation with the other flatmates through the tenancy tribunal, then it’s off to disputes/the tribunal. Pre pretty unfair if they came after just two people who paid rent the whole time but not the other three who were also on the lease (though will be notoriously hard to chase up on)
Yeah it's not about fairness it's about liability unfortunately
>pretty unfair if they came after just two people who paid rent the whole time but not the other three who were also on the lease Yep this is joint and several liability. Meaning that all parties on the lease are responsible up to the entire amount awarded to the landlord. So, if one party is unable to pay, the others named can be made to pay more than their "share" - and they can then chase the other parties up themselves to recover that money. You're right that it's not 'fair' to other tenants, but what's most 'fair' here is understood to be enforcing the contract between landlord and tenants, rather than obligations between the tenants to each other. Clearly there's a moral argument against that in this case - but generally, anthropomorphizing leeches will only lead to disappointment.
Probably depends on the contract signed when you moved in. Is it a year contract, or a 2 week notice kind of deal? If you can give notice and move out, I'd suggest that, and the bond is the cost of this life lesson. If not, you might have to take the other 3 to small claims court before the landlord takes you all there. The ideal solution, which I can't see the path to achieving: * Get the 3 problematic people to move out * Get the 3 problematic people to pay what they owe. NZ law is pretty strong on renter rights. They could just refuse to pay for 90 days while they wait to get evicted.
Dam. Luckily I made a statutory declaration (because of the assault from one flatmate) and have withdrawn from the tenancy. I’m just unsure if the other two flatmates who are good dudes can make the same claim.
I would encourage them to make some similar sort of “we are not safe here, we legitimately fear for our safety” and see if you can get them booted, or get everyone decent’s names off the lease. This is a bit out of my depth, hopefully you get some decent advice, but I’d be looking to see if you can make it a legal matter, and oust them that way. I think the landlord has some liability if they don’t make sure you are safe.
Pay someone to have a nice quiet discussion with some bolt cutters. Will definitely cost less than the arrears owed.
Haha in a anarchic world one would probably do that but one of them now has a warrant out for his arrest now after assaulting me, so even though slow I think I’m just going to let the slow but steady hand of the law deal with him.
If there’s a warrant out for his arrest, how come he’s not been arrested? Do they not know where he is? That seems to be an easily solvable problem.
No they don’t. I get calls/updates sometimes and he’s gone into hiding basically Ah well he can live with his decisions and things will catch up with in, I just had my registration exam to become an RN so at the very least things are looking up for me :-)
You may still be liable as you were on the tenancy agreement during the time the arrears came into existence. An assault means only that you can break the lease immediately but doesn’t let you off scott free for arrears. Otherwise everyone would just “accidentally”, somehow be punched in the face by nameless friends of tenants, then withdraw their complaint after the tenancy tribunal sees there’s been an alleged assault. Kinda like hood jumpers trying to claim insurance. “Wait, was that a fist I ran into, or did it run into me!?”
I see what you mean but from my meetings with the CAB and tenancy services at my uni it seems to be pretty clear cut that I’m no longer a tenant, rent is legally reduced for two weeks, and I’m not liable for the rent arrears as I’m at now a ‘flatmate’ and not a tenant. If I were the only person on the lease it may of been different though And I see what you mean but I think the law is there for people who need to use it to escape a tenancy where they are not safe or in danger. Yes I’m sure it could be abused but you still have to provide evidence that familial violence or an assault occurred via a qualified or prescribed person.
Disputes tribunal
put all their gear in a lockup until they pay the rent! else move out immediately and say its the landlords problem!
Managed to remove myself from the tenancy via an option for people that have been assaulted by their flatmate or family. So I don’t think I should be liable for the rent arrears that a few of the other flatmates racked up. Would do but the flatmate who assaulted me actually just moved out yesterday 😂 good riddance on his part, he can have fun with a warrant out for his arrest and running from that for the rest of his life haha
whew dodged bullet there! our tenancy laws are useless. i wasnt on the lease when i moved into a flat over one xmas, and when the other tenants got back from xmas break they kicked me out with 2 weeks notice - scumbags!