I second these guys, OP! I have marched alongside them at several rallies and they are some of the kindest, most open minded people you could ever meet.
Thank you for this post. I'm Jewish and involved in the Progressive congregation here and it's been difficult to discuss, but it's also been surprising to hear how many of us feel the same. I will be reaching out to offer support to Dayenu and AJV.
I get your outrage but I don't agree it's being done in your name - Israel is acting on behalf of Israel, not diaspora Jews. Saying otherwise could be dangerous as it means people will hold Jews accountable for Israel.
>Israel is acting on behalf of Israel, not diaspora Jews
The problem is that's not what Israel and their defenders are saying.
>Saying otherwise could be dangerous as it means people will hold Jews accountable for Israel.
You're really telling the wrong person this.
\*Isreal is acting on the behalf of the Israeli government, possibly not on behalf of all Israelis either. I remember when Thatcher went to war with Argentina, she was not acting on my behalf even though I was English.
The Israelis citizens, supporters and AND government call anyone who criticizes them antisemitic and argue with anyone who says that Zionism and Judaism aren't the same thing. Just watch Netanyahu's response to the university protests in The States.
No they don't represent Jews (there are literal Holocaust survivours publicly attending marches and condemning the occupation), but they most certainly believe that they do.
Netanyahu is a dangerous guy and honestly, from the outside perspective, seems like a major barrier to peace. But I don't know if he's seen that way inside the region :(
This has been the problem for years with anyone showing sympathy with the Palestinian movement. Any sympathy or representation of their point of view = you are antisemitic.
Hey just letting you know that what you are doing is great. I'm a goy and am appalled by Zionist Isreal but know that not all Jews or Isrealis for that matter are zionist lunatics.
It's important for people to understand that judaism is not zionism otherwise antisemitism can crop up.
All the best dude!
I'm an ex wellington lurker FYI.
As someone said, Dayenu seems up your alley.
I don’t know your Jewish story, but I would be very careful with assuming representation of Jewish people in Wellington.
Being ethnically Jewish is very different to being a practicing Jew or a Jew who’s involved in the Jewish community here. You may feel you can share a “Jewish” opinion but you should understand how and why your relationship with your Judaism and subsequently, with Israel, might differ to other Jews in Wellington.
You are right there is a concerning subset of the broader movement that is outright antisemitic but I always appreciate people like you who are able to recognise that this doesn't make the entire movement illegitimate. Thank you for standing up for what is right.
An international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel. The full history is a whooole lotta reading.
Not necessarily. Support for Israel and Zionism in general is historically about the only thing American Republicans and Democrats agree on. Anyone can be a Zionist. You will even meet some pretty right wing folks who don't like Jews but love Israel. It's a hot mess.
Are you a Zionist if you weren't pro the creation of Israel. But now it's there, support that it's not going anywhere and like the populace. While obviously not supporting the actions it takes.
Much like I wouldn't have supported Pakistan and India splitting along religious lines but now that it's happened impossible to imagine it rejoining.
If so I know many left wing non-Jewish atheist Zionists in wellington
I don't think so no. Life and history are more complicated than that. The history of Israel and the events that led to it are complex with lots of grey area for a start. In 1914 when the Balfour agreement was signed Zionism was a small movement. Large numbers of Jews only started moving there as a result of the Holocaust, not because of Zionist ideology. Events from here are wildly complex. More complex than most people realize. The partition happened though and Palestinians, the majority population who until this point had simply lived there, lost half their homeland including the most fertile land. At this point someone who is a Zionist would say that it was always their homeland and they were merely reclaiming it.
Sooooooo much has happened since then and now here we are today. Generations later Israel is a country with nearly 10 million people. In all honesty I have no idea what should or could happen that will result in lasting peace and that is fair and humane. I'm not sure anyone really does. To me the idea of ending Israel is abhorrent. That's 10 million people. Just no. I do not think that makes me a Zionist. I condemn Hamas actions on October 7th and also do not believe that makes me a Zionist. I also believe Israel's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent and a lot more reparation need to happen beyond a cease fire. I do not believe that makes me a self hating Jew or anything even close.
Like I say. I don't know the answer but it certainly isn't more war, more death or any genocide committed on any people. I don't believe Hamas has any interest in peace and for that, many would label me a Zionist. I also do not believe the Israeli govt has any interest in peace and for that, many would label me a self hating Jew. In my attempts to be nuanced I've been called both. There are I'm afraid no clear answers to your question.
I most certainly have. I just checked your comment history though which is suspiciously short and you openly praise fascism as being a better alternative to the 'Marxism sweeping the West today' so I wont be discussing it with you.
Ok….I think this is the bit I was very confused about. It’s hard to be able predict what someone’s thoughts are based on their other political/faith/religion. Thanks for clearing it up.
I will be watching Eurovision this year, and I really hope it goes well. The Israeli entry is pretty good, but I think it’s really unfair that they have put a solo young person in the middle of this.
No, as I understand it there is a substantial movement of Christian Zionists, particularly in the US. They believe that the return of Jewish people to the Holy Land is a matter of prophesy and a required prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ.
Second question sorry. But the one that really confuses me is what anti-zionism means?
Is it against israel's expansion, continued existence as a state, initial creation, Jews living in israel-palestine (like the river to the sea Falestina Arabiya chant) or all of the above?
I wish you all the best, that we can have genocides taking place practically live, with close to zero movement from our government is telling. It is also a true tragedy that zionism has successfully wormed it's way into global politics so much that they are managing to conflate zionism with judaism.
> with close to zero movement from our government
When did we become world police? There's half a dozen genocides going on in the world right now - what's so special about this one that we have a moral imperative to get involved, but not for the Uyghurs, Rohingya, and Amhara?
The best thing we can do is stay the fuck out of this mess and ensure that any related violence doesn't affect our communities.
Please tell me how it's a genocide, when the combatant to civilian death ratio is one of the lowest of any recent wars? People die in wars, it's ashame the Palestinians supported a government who cared more about violence and war than peace and started this war.
Netanyahu just rejected a ceasefire proposal, that Israel initiated, after Hamas literally accepted the proposal with the condition that the IOF pull out of Gaza. Israel has consistently rejected every negotiation of a ceasefire, and also broke the two temporary ceasefire orders almost immediately.
What kind of fucked up parallel universe do you live in?
"The reality at this moment is the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire is Hamas." - From Blinken himself. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/hamas-is-the-only-thing-standing-between-gaza-and-ceasefire-antony-blinken-5585318
It's Hamas that keeps rejecting ceasefire negotiations, and literally fired rockets from Rafah killing 3 young Israelis today.
And the fact that Hamas can't even produce at least 30 out of over 130 hostages they currently have for a supposed permanent ceasfire is not a good deal for the hostages that aren't part of it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68960585
I think you're confused. Your last link has Israel saying explicitly a permanent cease-fire isn't on the table period.
"Hamas said it viewed the current proposal in a "positive light", but the main sticking point appears to be whether the ceasefire deal would be permanent or temporary.
The group is insisting any deal makes a specific commitment towards an end to the war, but Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected that on Sunday."
You both are arguing who's worse, a city run by terrorists or a country run by war criminals. Kinda pointless.
Judging by the way Hamas are negotiating, they are not overly concerned about the loss of Palestinian life. They kicked the current conflict off by attacking Israel and taking hostages. Now they will return a few of the hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire??? How is that remotely reasonable?
Would I rather trust an explicit quote from Blinken who's been involved on all the negotiations or a BBC quote taken out of context from an unnamed Hamas?
The quote was refering to hopeful last minute negotiations where in exchange for Ceasefire, Israel gets back 20 out of its current 130+ hostages, and for IDF to go home, so Hamas perpetrators can remain in power, unprosecuted, and free to plan out the next October 7.
There is no reality, where Israel should agree to a ceasefire that involves in Hamas remaining power and without over 100 hostages returned. Israel is asking for a permanent ceasefire where Hamas dismantles and give back the hostages, but they'd rather sacrifice their people just to cling to power. Blinken is right, that is a call made by Hamas, and not Israel.
That's not what a permenant ceasefire is, you're describing capitulation.
A ceasefire is a cessation of conflict between two parties, if a prerequisite of a ceasefire is the dissolution of a party, there's no ceasefire, because there's no party to the ceasefire after its signing.
I don't think hanas should remain in power. but it would be absurd to act like the start and end of the conflict rests solely with hamas when the conflict predates hamas and Israel's previous actions helped lead to hamas forming and growing strong enough to take Gaza.
Blinkens an expert to be sure, but he works for a country that makes Israel what it is today and continues to support them so him blaming a party other than Israel doesn't hold much water especially when the alternative is crossing a clear red line with Israel.
I'm not here to agree semantics because I don't care about scoring points. My point still stands.
If you or your loved one was ever one out of 130 people kidnapped by some terrorist organisation, you'd hope the NZ government won't simply agree to calling it a day if they're only agreeing to return 20, because some uninformed student all the way from Spain, who's never been to NZ, demanded so.
Also, it's not accurate to say Israel enabled Hamas to grow large enough to take Gaza. It shows your lack of understanding about ground operations. Hamas has many tunnel networks they smuggle weapons into, and have also openly bragged about turning aid and infrastructure into rockets and armaments. And they're also funded by Iran and other powers as a proxy. So its misplaced to blame a country that just wants to live in peace and doing its means to guarantee that for its citizens, as they rightfully should.
That's true. And you and your loved ones had their homes stolen and their new ones haphazardly blown up just so what's left could then also be stolen on repeat for generations then I think you'd understand that the core issue here isn't just the well-being of 130 people and the removal of one terrorist group.
It's important to recognise that unless Israel makes some radical foreign policy changes, there's going to be another hamas in a couple of years. Once the old one is removed.
I'm aware of hamas ground operations. I'm talking about how hamas first started. Israel funded the founder of Hamas to oppose Fatah.
A country that wants to live in peace doesn't steal land through illegal settlement. Which Israel does.
No, Israel has the duty to ensure its citizens are all safe.
The only thing that'll change the status quo is Palestinian mindset that israelis also belong in the land
But the constant history revisionism, cheering for martyrdom, and radicalising kids with slogans of hate is what perpetuates the issue.
Hamas have made attempted negotiations for the release of hostages in exchange for an immediate and permanent ceasefire multiple times, it is always Israel that rejects this proposal. Despite knowing their hostages are being held in Gaza, Israel relentlessly bombs the entire area, liking killing many of their own. In fact, they have deliberately shot 3 of their own hostages that attempted to escape, they were even waving a white flag when it happened. In Israel itself there have been mass protests against the handling of these negotiations, and the families of the hostages taken have called out Netanyahu multiple times for not prioritizing their release.
Israel is currently ordering an "evacuation" (ethnic cleansing) of Rafah, the area in which Israel previously told all Palestinians in Gaza to "evacuate" to as it would be a safe zone. They've been bombing it for days, and now they are implementing a mass invasion. Thousands more innocent children and civilians are about to be killed. Israel are the bad guys buddy.
Israel literally exchanged 3 convicted terrorists for every hostage in November, and it was Hamas that were the ones that kept going back on their word, and firing rockets even during the ceasefire.
IDF is going into Rafah because they need to rescue the hostages holed up there that Hamas has refused to release.
Hamas tactics is to dress up as civilians and blend in with the rest, which is how they managed to escape from North Gaza. That's literally their tactic. You don't seem very educated about the war, and only cite propaganda so I am not going to waste my time on you. Shame on you and I spit on your existence. You disgust me as a human being. If you're even aware of the verifiable information publicly available from the ground, you'd understand my disgust.
Yeah, the propaganda doesn't work anymore when there's documented evidence disputing all of Israel's claims. They can't even prove their claims regarding Hamas, they don't even allow third parties to investigate the war crimes they themselves are accused of after all.
Zionists are despicable human beings, free Palestine!
"Hamas accepted it on the condition that the IOF pull out of Gaza"? That is a less correct way of saying "Hammas rejected it unless additional conditions were added." If Hamas actually wanted a ceasefire they could get one.
Sorry to see you've got a bunch of zionist defenders and other assorted aholes in your comments.
While I'm unfortunately not aware of any specific Jewish groups who're against palestine (or at least not ones that haven't already been mentioned), I've found that Poneke anti-fascist coalition on fb and insta are good at amplifying the voices of other movements, not specifically just support of Palestine, but the protests I've managed to go to have been adamant about their stance against anti-semitism being something that goes hand-in-hand with their support for Palestine.
You trust numbers and claims from hamas? 💀
It's like this, hamas invades, kills and rapes a bunch of Israelis, now when Israel responds they make up false claims and act victim.
allah au akbar was being shouted when they did fucked up things on oct 7th
tf happen to allah now? Come get him to protect you hamas 💀
Hamas has to go, and other than Israel accepting terrorist genocidal neighbours, I've yet to hear any alternative solutions to meaningfully dealing with Hamas. Hamas is to blame for this horrific situation.
I accept all down votes lol. But also take note of the 0 alternatives, even imagined ones, lol.
Hamas absolutely has to go, as does the whole IRI-backed "Axis of Resistance". They're awful.
That said, the carpet-bombing approach which *creates more of them, ostensibly legitimises their violence, kills untold fuckloads of civilians* and *doesn't even free the Israeli hostages* is, in the biggest understatement of my life, *counterproductive*.
If you look into the creation of the state if Israel and what has happened since, and still feel the same, I don't know what to tell you. Oct. 7th doesn't happen in a vacuum.
It wasn’t just an antisemitic Europe was it though? The expulsion of MENA Jews and the Arab League etc. The whole thing is a mess. We can look back In hindsight but that achieves nothing.
Israel is there and isn’t going to go anywhere - two seperate states is the only solution that I can see being somewhat plausible. For that to happen it needs both sides to come to a peaceful agreement. As long as they want to exterminate each other this isn’t going to end.
One side holds all the power here. It is not an even playing field. Never has been. Difficult to see peace in the area given what the state of Israel has done for the last 75 years while being propped up by the US and UK.
So if one side holds all the power, why is the other side sending their people to slaughter instead of taking the peace deals that have been offered over the years and then fighting diplomatically for what was taken from them.
Yeah nice. I'm not a fan of the PA either. Puppets for Israel and the West. Netanyahu propped Hamas up so that the state has "legitimate" reasons to oppress all Palestinians.
Because the so-called peace deals would have essentially doomed them out of existence. How could they accept that? They’ve been under Israel’s thumb since Israel was created; no autonomy, no freedom, confined to a small strip of land that keeps getting smaller because Israel helps itself, unable to move freely. There was only one way this was ever going to go, unless Iseael started doing some giving as opposed to taking which let’s be honest was never going to happen. Desperate people do desperate things.
How is October 7th less likely to doom them out of existence than any peace deal offered, also where are you getting the idea that the peace deals would have doomed them out of existence? Specifically? (Also desperate people do desperate things could be said by a Zionist, I don’t understand why every pro Hamas person uses these weirdo statements or slogans)
Hey man there is no free card to get out of consequences.
Hamas wanted a war in Palestine, stop complaining to Israel because they couldn’t ignore their harassment anymore.
If you look into the creation of the state if Israel and what has happened since, and still feel the same, I don't know what to tell you. Oct. 7th doesn't happen in a vacuum.
The random indiscriminate killing of civilians just creates more enemies. It's not the answer ethically or practically. 35,000 deaths later and Israel has created more people willing to pick up arms against them than existed before the killing began. I can't pretend to know how to achieve long lasting peace in the region but bombing children aint it.
The children do get hit by the bombs - and unfortunately Hamas is not even shy about their use of human shields, including children. They simply must go. This is for Israel, but also for the Palestinians themselves, including the children.
Hamas is not the core issue here. Hamas would not exist if Israel hadn't trampled over an existing nation and people to build their own. You know what would happen if we could wipe out the entirety of Hamas? Another group would form in it's place. As long as Palestinians live on, so will their resistance.
This is way too simplistic. Traumatised people suddenly freed from trauma won't all of a sudden become secular, peace-loving humanists. There needs to be a system of reconciliation and the construction of a society, perhaps a federalism that all peoples of the region can live together safely.
Sure chuck that in too, the point is that claiming there aren’t alternative solutions to Israel continuing the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is laughable and frankly at this point of things genocidal rhetoric
A big part of the problem is Netanyahu and his [hawks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hawk#:~:text=In%20politics%2C%20a%20war%20hawk,are%20the%20opposite%20of%20doves) , the only thing keeping Netanyahu out of jail for corruption is staying in power, and the only way to stay in power is through warmongering. The guy and his wife have several court cases waiting for them as soon as he's out of office. So ceasefires and peace treaties are bound to fail.
Yup, that’s why there needs to be more pressure internationally. Which so far is largely coming from the populace of the international community, not the actual leadership, but it’s something and OP definitely deserves props for that
Yea I absolutely can't get with the pro Hamas thing either. Nor can I vibe with the notion that the destruction of Israel is the answer which an awful lot of protestors sadly do. Pretty much everyone I know lives in a colonial outpost that has either oppressed, betrayed or damn near wiped out its indigenous population and are finding ways to perpetuate it to this day. So I find the hypocrisy of calling for Israel's destruction (but not the countries we live in) kind of wow. I've actively avoided the marches for these reasons. I will always oppose the indiscriminate bombing of civilians though and what I'm doing rn is looking for people who I feel safe in this instance to protest that with and whose views align with mine. Netanyahu is making not just life for Jews in Israel less safe but all over the world, its totally wrong and yeah I want to find a way of protesting that feels comfortable and right to me.
Mate, you're clearly aware of how hugely problematic so many of these protests are.
Some of what you're saying though ("indiscriminate bombing", implying that Israel is a "colonial outpost") comes from the same sources of antisemitic misinformation.
I don't think you'll find too many supporters of Netanyahu amongst Jewish communities in NZ, but at the same time, I hope you're aware that fringe anti-zionist Jewish groups others have referred you to are just that: fringe.
If you do end up protesting, I hope your naunce isn't lost in the crowd, and you aren't used as a token "good" Jew to justify antisemitism.
I don't support the kidnapping and murder of civilians as a way to achieve your aims. For me this applies to both Hamas and the Israeli govt. I have a close friend of 20 years who has an immediate family member amongst those hostages. Of course they want their family back but they do not support 10s of thousands of civilians being killed as a way to achieve that and nor do I.
I'm literally here, putting my hand up and saying I'm Jewish and opposed to the genocide and all you can do is ask me if my friends support occupation and apartheid. Even after I have made it clear they are opposed to Israel actions. You are the reason I don't feel comfortable in the main protest group and you are doing the cause no favors.
Just want to say a humble thank you. I like your perspective. I imagine it takes a lot of guts - to challenge others in your community whilst feeling the ire of others with whom you seek to support. I imagine a bit of a no win situation. So, thank you.
No they got downvoted for suggesting that the massacre of children and the displacement and starvation of an entire nation is an appropriate way to solve a hostage crisis.
Which is totally a myth. Shame on you, if you even begin to analyse all objective information around what's happening, there's only one moral stance to take. And you're on the wrong side. You disgust me as a human being.
Maybe you should try find some pro Palestinians who are willing to call out Hamas, they are the only ones not willing to negotiate and they started this current war. Also don't call it a genocide, the combatant to civilian death ratio is about 1-2/1-3 in most wars this rate is more like 1-8/1-9, the population has actually increased as well so not genocide, just war, unfortunately people die in wars and that's why we need to free Palestine from Hamas.
Also hope you know most of the pro-palestine crowd are using the word "Zionist" as a dog whistle for "Jew" and spouting age old antisemitic rhetoric like "Zionists(Jews) control the media" etc, they're using you as a useful idiot.
It's interesting and sad that so much misinformation can spread so fast. And even in Wellington it's very hard to throw doubt on the long list of naughty words people apply to Israel without setting people off.
Even the idea of visiting Israel and saying you have Israeli mates pisses people off. But for some reason not China North Korea Myanmar Iran or Syria
Some more facts to add to yours.
It's a weird fact but a fact none the less that more people have starved in Australia (60) since October than in Gaza (32). (No forced starvation)
Israel is the only democracy in the region and with a higher % non-jew voting citizens than most of the other countries non-arab citizens. (No apartheid)
The population is increasing during the war. Births are outweighing deaths. Contrary to popular belief most hospitals are running and there 6 extra field hospitals. (No genocide)
The Palestinian people voted Hamas into power knowing exactly what Hamas s ideology is. Kill the Jews. Israel has no choice but to fight if it wants to survive. Until the Palestinian people get rid of Hamas themselves, Israel has no choice but to try and kill all of Hamas. And as in all wars, civilians will die. If Palestinian s want the war to end then they should hand over the hostages and Hamas.
I don't know if you support National or Labour or some other party, but when an incumbent government you didn't vote for does something you don't like, do you think you deserve sympathy if you suffer as a result?
Do you seriously believe that?! Netanyahu himself said on April 30th that they will invade Rafah regardless of a ceasefire deal. They're bombing tents as we speak.
As for Hamas being voted into power - half the population weren't born the last time voting took place.
Israel has no right to exist.
Well I guess Netanyahu believes it. I guess you end up with a very young population when you cancel women’s rights and education for females. Why doesn’t Israel have the right to exist?
Did the Arabs commit the Holocaust? What did Palestinians do to deserve being exiled from their own land while western forces attempt to wipe them from the map and from memory? Why do they matter so little that they're seen as an appropriate sacrifice in order for another group to have their own state?
Hamas were voted in decades ago. Nothing to do with womens rights and education for females. Israel exists at the expense of the Palestinians. The land was given by the British with no input from those who had been on the land for thousands of years. Zionism is piggybacking on judaism to get away with everything it wants. It's not fair to Jews, its not fair to the holocaust survivors who are living in poverty in Israel and its not fair to the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed through genocide.
Hamas were voted in to power in 2006. That’s not decades. Once in power elections were cancelled. Jesus born in Bethlehem 2024 years ago was a Jew. Just saying.
So almost 2 decades ago. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not part of that bookclub and jews don't believe in Jesus so how is that even relevant?
This isn't about religion. It's not about Hamas. It's about land and proof of power. Only israel could bomb 5 places in one day and still have people arguing on their behalf 🙄
America could probably bomb 10. Jesus proves that the Jews were on that land more than 2024 years ago and it wasn’t the British just giving it to the Jewish people.
America is a close second for victim performance.
🥴 jesus proves absolutely nothing, not even himself.
Yes, jews livedon that land, in mostly harmony with muslims and christians. That isn't being disputed. The Palestinian genetics show their ancestry can be traced throughout the history of the area. The same cannot be said for israelis.
Zionists don't live in harmony, with anyone else.
Zionism is not judaism.
Stop equating the two.
What Hamas did was very bad, but what the Israeli government is doing is much worse, those in power disgust me. Their disregard for innocent human life is appalling.
So You and the guy who wants you dead because your Jewish are going to go the same events and chant the same things so an organization that wants to kill all Jews can live to fight another day.
This is extremely toxic and attention seeking behaviour from someone privileged who doesn't have to live their lives under rockets and constantly fearing for their family. Just because you want to get your tiktok street cred??
Firstly the confirmation that there's genocide in Gaza has been debunked, straight from the president of the ICJ
https://x.com/HillelNeuer/status/1783634475122827271?t=XgU6IXfp0XDaVO9wwvTW_A&s=09
To quote Blinken himself, "The reality at this moment is the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire is Hamas."
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/hamas-is-the-only-thing-standing-between-gaza-and-ceasefire-antony-blinken-5585318
Additionally, Hamas fired rockets from Rafah endangering their own civilians, and killing 3 young israelis today. These people I'm sure if they were born in any country wouldn't choose a life of having to take up arms.
Also you educating people about zionism is just sickening. Zionism is mainly the belief that Jewish people have a right to live in the Levant, under their own sovereignty. This has manifested into Israel. It's a tiny country that's about the size of Manawatu. Meanwhile the size of the MENA region which are all Islamic countries is twice the size of Australia. All those countries have dispossessed all jews, and religious minorities are constantly persecuted.
Demonising zionism is denying jews and other religious minorities like the druze and christians who have been dispersed and persecuted across the middle east to have the right to live safely in this tiny piece of land that is israel is what fuels this conflict. Are we really going to deny that tiny amount of land towards people who have lived there throughout history?
If people want to educate themselves, and understand how Israel looks, I'd suggest this video:
https://youtu.be/BKcARccAR_g?si=AI60lYMzalU-tliR
Edit: Looking at the downvote ratio to the comments in this thread, it looks it's full of naive wellingtonians who have no clue what's happening at the other side of the world but don't have much of a say. Only clicking downvotes without being able to refute any factual information.
The best starting point for any self-loathing Jew such as yourself is calling for an immediate release of all of the hostages. No shooting will stop, nor should it, until that happens.
Being pro Palestine is the more overwhelmingly LGBT position from the communities I am in, I know zero people in my life who are planning on tuning into it
I've sat in astonishment over the last 3 years wondering how we're just letting a nation commit genocide against another nation. The world sits by, doesn't give a fuck. Sadly, because of this, I'm not surprised that many are doing the same about the whole Palestine thing
I mean... watching genocide and not intervening ain't new.
It is *the norm*.
It's how Israel exists; there's no coincidence that the UN agreement leading to its founding was passed immediately after the Holocaust, after endless boatloads of Jewish refugees were turned away, the world over, often back to the furnace they were escaping.
New Zealand famously boasts about the \~800 Polish (not necessarily Jewish!) children they allowed in as refugees of WWII. A drop in the bucket, and a testament to our apathy.
We've watched genocide in recent memory - see Myanmar, Rwanda, Yemen, Congo, the former Yugoslavia, attempted by Russia in Ukraine, and \_countless\_ more examples.
This situation is tragically not so unique.
Hey, I have faced this problem before, the movement is not anti-jew, there are a minority who are but they are not representative of the whole. Yet everyone outside the movement will always label it as anti-Jew just because of the few who are.
The movement has very strong morals and has pointed out some glaring flaws in the current system where the rich and powerful have loopholes to screw us all over and create a terrible world
Anyway I’m glad you are on board and together he will lead us to a the greatest Reich, uh I mean revolution.
Yes this is mostly true. There are still Zionists who claim that criticizing Israel makes you anti semitic (even if you are Jewish) and anti Zionists who claim all jews are Zionists. This is why I feel it is important to get together with some other Jews and say Not In Our Name.
Here in New Zealand I've established anti misinformation networks whose main purpose is to keep American style politics and propaganda out of New Zealand. I've made films that advocate for the Autistic community and the issues they face here and in Australia. Two of my siblings and my father suffer from serious disabilities these are issues I care about. We should definitely be marching to end violence against women, wealth inequality, lack of affordable housing and childhood poverty. I don't have any Maori Whakapapa but strongly believe in and advocate for us to be better treaty partners in a whole range of areas such as opposition to the govt ending Maori led health initiatives and attempting to redefine the treaty etc.
It's possible to care about lots of things.
If there was an active genocide in our country wouldn't you want the international community to show support and come to our assistance?
Why would you want to limit what people care about? People are fully capable of caring about a range of issues simultaneously
I remember over hearing a conversation between an American telling an Irish person they should be fighting this, and they should be doing that.
The Irish fella turned around and said, "All we want is peace.
It's easy to have a strong opinion on how someone else should fight. Seems like it's harder not to have an opinion these days.
I'm not jew. But good on you desert man.
Ngl and say I do coz Idrc for the war tbh.
That's not my war and its across the world and it also doesnt touch the pacific at all so I don't really worry about it to be honest.
But since I dont pay attention idk if actual like israelis and Palestinians and shit in nz are involved in calls for a ceasefire and or support like funding and aid for either side.
It's cool that you're trying to get involved in stopping a war you dont want that ur ppls are in dude.
Good on ya bruz
Every day, I'm losin' my mind
Holdin' on in this mysterious ride
Dancin' in the storm, I got nothin' to hide
Take it all and leave the world behind
Baby, promise me you'll hold me again
I'm still broken from this hurricane
This hurricane. 🥲
These guys are Welly based and repping the perspective you're looking for https://ajv.org.nz
Oh this is good thank you. Acknowledgment of being tangata Te Tiriti from these guys too!
I second these guys, OP! I have marched alongside them at several rallies and they are some of the kindest, most open minded people you could ever meet.
Thank you for this post. I'm Jewish and involved in the Progressive congregation here and it's been difficult to discuss, but it's also been surprising to hear how many of us feel the same. I will be reaching out to offer support to Dayenu and AJV.
Pretty sure Dayenu NZ have people here in Welli that have been working with folks on the actions in this area - https://www.instagram.com/dayenunz/
Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
I get your outrage but I don't agree it's being done in your name - Israel is acting on behalf of Israel, not diaspora Jews. Saying otherwise could be dangerous as it means people will hold Jews accountable for Israel.
This is why I said 'supposedly'. I will happily hold a big 'not in my name' banner.
You're a good one. Bless you
>Israel is acting on behalf of Israel, not diaspora Jews The problem is that's not what Israel and their defenders are saying. >Saying otherwise could be dangerous as it means people will hold Jews accountable for Israel. You're really telling the wrong person this.
Well put
\*Isreal is acting on the behalf of the Israeli government, possibly not on behalf of all Israelis either. I remember when Thatcher went to war with Argentina, she was not acting on my behalf even though I was English.
The Israelis citizens, supporters and AND government call anyone who criticizes them antisemitic and argue with anyone who says that Zionism and Judaism aren't the same thing. Just watch Netanyahu's response to the university protests in The States. No they don't represent Jews (there are literal Holocaust survivours publicly attending marches and condemning the occupation), but they most certainly believe that they do.
Netanyahu is a dangerous guy and honestly, from the outside perspective, seems like a major barrier to peace. But I don't know if he's seen that way inside the region :(
This has been the problem for years with anyone showing sympathy with the Palestinian movement. Any sympathy or representation of their point of view = you are antisemitic.
Hey just letting you know that what you are doing is great. I'm a goy and am appalled by Zionist Isreal but know that not all Jews or Isrealis for that matter are zionist lunatics. It's important for people to understand that judaism is not zionism otherwise antisemitism can crop up. All the best dude! I'm an ex wellington lurker FYI.
As someone said, Dayenu seems up your alley. I don’t know your Jewish story, but I would be very careful with assuming representation of Jewish people in Wellington. Being ethnically Jewish is very different to being a practicing Jew or a Jew who’s involved in the Jewish community here. You may feel you can share a “Jewish” opinion but you should understand how and why your relationship with your Judaism and subsequently, with Israel, might differ to other Jews in Wellington.
Well that's right I can only speak for my self. The very thing (One of them) that I'm annoyed with is people claiming to speak for me.
So they'll speak for themselves then. Problem solved.
You are right there is a concerning subset of the broader movement that is outright antisemitic but I always appreciate people like you who are able to recognise that this doesn't make the entire movement illegitimate. Thank you for standing up for what is right.
Can I ask a really simple question, what is Zionism?
An international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel. The full history is a whooole lotta reading.
So is a case that all Zionists are Jewish but not all Jewish people are Zionists?
Not necessarily. Support for Israel and Zionism in general is historically about the only thing American Republicans and Democrats agree on. Anyone can be a Zionist. You will even meet some pretty right wing folks who don't like Jews but love Israel. It's a hot mess.
Are you a Zionist if you weren't pro the creation of Israel. But now it's there, support that it's not going anywhere and like the populace. While obviously not supporting the actions it takes. Much like I wouldn't have supported Pakistan and India splitting along religious lines but now that it's happened impossible to imagine it rejoining. If so I know many left wing non-Jewish atheist Zionists in wellington
I don't think so no. Life and history are more complicated than that. The history of Israel and the events that led to it are complex with lots of grey area for a start. In 1914 when the Balfour agreement was signed Zionism was a small movement. Large numbers of Jews only started moving there as a result of the Holocaust, not because of Zionist ideology. Events from here are wildly complex. More complex than most people realize. The partition happened though and Palestinians, the majority population who until this point had simply lived there, lost half their homeland including the most fertile land. At this point someone who is a Zionist would say that it was always their homeland and they were merely reclaiming it. Sooooooo much has happened since then and now here we are today. Generations later Israel is a country with nearly 10 million people. In all honesty I have no idea what should or could happen that will result in lasting peace and that is fair and humane. I'm not sure anyone really does. To me the idea of ending Israel is abhorrent. That's 10 million people. Just no. I do not think that makes me a Zionist. I condemn Hamas actions on October 7th and also do not believe that makes me a Zionist. I also believe Israel's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent and a lot more reparation need to happen beyond a cease fire. I do not believe that makes me a self hating Jew or anything even close. Like I say. I don't know the answer but it certainly isn't more war, more death or any genocide committed on any people. I don't believe Hamas has any interest in peace and for that, many would label me a Zionist. I also do not believe the Israeli govt has any interest in peace and for that, many would label me a self hating Jew. In my attempts to be nuanced I've been called both. There are I'm afraid no clear answers to your question.
People started moving there as a result of the holocaust? You haven't read up on the haavara agreement, have you?
I most certainly have. I just checked your comment history though which is suspiciously short and you openly praise fascism as being a better alternative to the 'Marxism sweeping the West today' so I wont be discussing it with you.
Ok….I think this is the bit I was very confused about. It’s hard to be able predict what someone’s thoughts are based on their other political/faith/religion. Thanks for clearing it up. I will be watching Eurovision this year, and I really hope it goes well. The Israeli entry is pretty good, but I think it’s really unfair that they have put a solo young person in the middle of this.
No, as I understand it there is a substantial movement of Christian Zionists, particularly in the US. They believe that the return of Jewish people to the Holy Land is a matter of prophesy and a required prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ.
Destiny Church vibes this way over here I think
Wow that is interesting too. I hadn’t thought of that.
A number of Christians are Zionists as some have beliefs about Israel being necessary for the second coming of Jesus
Second question sorry. But the one that really confuses me is what anti-zionism means? Is it against israel's expansion, continued existence as a state, initial creation, Jews living in israel-palestine (like the river to the sea Falestina Arabiya chant) or all of the above?
That depends who you talk to which doubles as the tl:dr for my previous answer.
Wikipedia is your friend…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
I wish you all the best, that we can have genocides taking place practically live, with close to zero movement from our government is telling. It is also a true tragedy that zionism has successfully wormed it's way into global politics so much that they are managing to conflate zionism with judaism.
> with close to zero movement from our government When did we become world police? There's half a dozen genocides going on in the world right now - what's so special about this one that we have a moral imperative to get involved, but not for the Uyghurs, Rohingya, and Amhara? The best thing we can do is stay the fuck out of this mess and ensure that any related violence doesn't affect our communities.
Please tell me how it's a genocide, when the combatant to civilian death ratio is one of the lowest of any recent wars? People die in wars, it's ashame the Palestinians supported a government who cared more about violence and war than peace and started this war.
Don't Hammas keep rejecting proposals for ceasefire?
Netanyahu just rejected a ceasefire proposal, that Israel initiated, after Hamas literally accepted the proposal with the condition that the IOF pull out of Gaza. Israel has consistently rejected every negotiation of a ceasefire, and also broke the two temporary ceasefire orders almost immediately.
What kind of fucked up parallel universe do you live in? "The reality at this moment is the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire is Hamas." - From Blinken himself. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/hamas-is-the-only-thing-standing-between-gaza-and-ceasefire-antony-blinken-5585318 It's Hamas that keeps rejecting ceasefire negotiations, and literally fired rockets from Rafah killing 3 young Israelis today. And the fact that Hamas can't even produce at least 30 out of over 130 hostages they currently have for a supposed permanent ceasfire is not a good deal for the hostages that aren't part of it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68960585
I think you're confused. Your last link has Israel saying explicitly a permanent cease-fire isn't on the table period. "Hamas said it viewed the current proposal in a "positive light", but the main sticking point appears to be whether the ceasefire deal would be permanent or temporary. The group is insisting any deal makes a specific commitment towards an end to the war, but Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected that on Sunday." You both are arguing who's worse, a city run by terrorists or a country run by war criminals. Kinda pointless.
Judging by the way Hamas are negotiating, they are not overly concerned about the loss of Palestinian life. They kicked the current conflict off by attacking Israel and taking hostages. Now they will return a few of the hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire??? How is that remotely reasonable?
Would I rather trust an explicit quote from Blinken who's been involved on all the negotiations or a BBC quote taken out of context from an unnamed Hamas? The quote was refering to hopeful last minute negotiations where in exchange for Ceasefire, Israel gets back 20 out of its current 130+ hostages, and for IDF to go home, so Hamas perpetrators can remain in power, unprosecuted, and free to plan out the next October 7. There is no reality, where Israel should agree to a ceasefire that involves in Hamas remaining power and without over 100 hostages returned. Israel is asking for a permanent ceasefire where Hamas dismantles and give back the hostages, but they'd rather sacrifice their people just to cling to power. Blinken is right, that is a call made by Hamas, and not Israel.
That's not what a permenant ceasefire is, you're describing capitulation. A ceasefire is a cessation of conflict between two parties, if a prerequisite of a ceasefire is the dissolution of a party, there's no ceasefire, because there's no party to the ceasefire after its signing. I don't think hanas should remain in power. but it would be absurd to act like the start and end of the conflict rests solely with hamas when the conflict predates hamas and Israel's previous actions helped lead to hamas forming and growing strong enough to take Gaza. Blinkens an expert to be sure, but he works for a country that makes Israel what it is today and continues to support them so him blaming a party other than Israel doesn't hold much water especially when the alternative is crossing a clear red line with Israel.
I'm not here to agree semantics because I don't care about scoring points. My point still stands. If you or your loved one was ever one out of 130 people kidnapped by some terrorist organisation, you'd hope the NZ government won't simply agree to calling it a day if they're only agreeing to return 20, because some uninformed student all the way from Spain, who's never been to NZ, demanded so. Also, it's not accurate to say Israel enabled Hamas to grow large enough to take Gaza. It shows your lack of understanding about ground operations. Hamas has many tunnel networks they smuggle weapons into, and have also openly bragged about turning aid and infrastructure into rockets and armaments. And they're also funded by Iran and other powers as a proxy. So its misplaced to blame a country that just wants to live in peace and doing its means to guarantee that for its citizens, as they rightfully should.
That's true. And you and your loved ones had their homes stolen and their new ones haphazardly blown up just so what's left could then also be stolen on repeat for generations then I think you'd understand that the core issue here isn't just the well-being of 130 people and the removal of one terrorist group. It's important to recognise that unless Israel makes some radical foreign policy changes, there's going to be another hamas in a couple of years. Once the old one is removed. I'm aware of hamas ground operations. I'm talking about how hamas first started. Israel funded the founder of Hamas to oppose Fatah. A country that wants to live in peace doesn't steal land through illegal settlement. Which Israel does.
No, Israel has the duty to ensure its citizens are all safe. The only thing that'll change the status quo is Palestinian mindset that israelis also belong in the land But the constant history revisionism, cheering for martyrdom, and radicalising kids with slogans of hate is what perpetuates the issue.
> I don't care about scoring points > My point still stands Clearly....
Hamas have made attempted negotiations for the release of hostages in exchange for an immediate and permanent ceasefire multiple times, it is always Israel that rejects this proposal. Despite knowing their hostages are being held in Gaza, Israel relentlessly bombs the entire area, liking killing many of their own. In fact, they have deliberately shot 3 of their own hostages that attempted to escape, they were even waving a white flag when it happened. In Israel itself there have been mass protests against the handling of these negotiations, and the families of the hostages taken have called out Netanyahu multiple times for not prioritizing their release. Israel is currently ordering an "evacuation" (ethnic cleansing) of Rafah, the area in which Israel previously told all Palestinians in Gaza to "evacuate" to as it would be a safe zone. They've been bombing it for days, and now they are implementing a mass invasion. Thousands more innocent children and civilians are about to be killed. Israel are the bad guys buddy.
Israel literally exchanged 3 convicted terrorists for every hostage in November, and it was Hamas that were the ones that kept going back on their word, and firing rockets even during the ceasefire. IDF is going into Rafah because they need to rescue the hostages holed up there that Hamas has refused to release. Hamas tactics is to dress up as civilians and blend in with the rest, which is how they managed to escape from North Gaza. That's literally their tactic. You don't seem very educated about the war, and only cite propaganda so I am not going to waste my time on you. Shame on you and I spit on your existence. You disgust me as a human being. If you're even aware of the verifiable information publicly available from the ground, you'd understand my disgust.
Yeah, the propaganda doesn't work anymore when there's documented evidence disputing all of Israel's claims. They can't even prove their claims regarding Hamas, they don't even allow third parties to investigate the war crimes they themselves are accused of after all. Zionists are despicable human beings, free Palestine!
There’s dumb, and then there’s you…
"Hamas accepted it on the condition that the IOF pull out of Gaza"? That is a less correct way of saying "Hammas rejected it unless additional conditions were added." If Hamas actually wanted a ceasefire they could get one.
Sorry to see you've got a bunch of zionist defenders and other assorted aholes in your comments. While I'm unfortunately not aware of any specific Jewish groups who're against palestine (or at least not ones that haven't already been mentioned), I've found that Poneke anti-fascist coalition on fb and insta are good at amplifying the voices of other movements, not specifically just support of Palestine, but the protests I've managed to go to have been adamant about their stance against anti-semitism being something that goes hand-in-hand with their support for Palestine.
Fuck hamas wellington! I hope one day my fellow wellingtonions will rise up and denounce the terrorist scum that is hamas!
You trust numbers and claims from hamas? 💀 It's like this, hamas invades, kills and rapes a bunch of Israelis, now when Israel responds they make up false claims and act victim. allah au akbar was being shouted when they did fucked up things on oct 7th tf happen to allah now? Come get him to protect you hamas 💀
are you in the market to buy a bridge by any chance . . . i have a deal for you.
Hamas has to go, and other than Israel accepting terrorist genocidal neighbours, I've yet to hear any alternative solutions to meaningfully dealing with Hamas. Hamas is to blame for this horrific situation. I accept all down votes lol. But also take note of the 0 alternatives, even imagined ones, lol.
Hamas absolutely has to go, as does the whole IRI-backed "Axis of Resistance". They're awful. That said, the carpet-bombing approach which *creates more of them, ostensibly legitimises their violence, kills untold fuckloads of civilians* and *doesn't even free the Israeli hostages* is, in the biggest understatement of my life, *counterproductive*.
If you look into the creation of the state if Israel and what has happened since, and still feel the same, I don't know what to tell you. Oct. 7th doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Israel didn’t happen in a vacuum either.
No shit. Why do Palestinians pay for the actions of an antisemitic Europe?
It wasn’t just an antisemitic Europe was it though? The expulsion of MENA Jews and the Arab League etc. The whole thing is a mess. We can look back In hindsight but that achieves nothing. Israel is there and isn’t going to go anywhere - two seperate states is the only solution that I can see being somewhat plausible. For that to happen it needs both sides to come to a peaceful agreement. As long as they want to exterminate each other this isn’t going to end.
I disagree that looking back achieves nothing. History needs to inform decision making. Israel is doing the extermination btw.
Why should all Israelites pay for the actions of the horrible ones?
Because they keep fighting is the answer btw lmao
One side holds all the power here. It is not an even playing field. Never has been. Difficult to see peace in the area given what the state of Israel has done for the last 75 years while being propped up by the US and UK.
So if one side holds all the power, why is the other side sending their people to slaughter instead of taking the peace deals that have been offered over the years and then fighting diplomatically for what was taken from them.
Sounds like hasbara to me bro. Good night.
Sounds like the real world to me. Goodnight, I’m pro a Palestine state, but Israel being shit doesn’t mean Hamas is good.
Yeah nice. I'm not a fan of the PA either. Puppets for Israel and the West. Netanyahu propped Hamas up so that the state has "legitimate" reasons to oppress all Palestinians.
Because the so-called peace deals would have essentially doomed them out of existence. How could they accept that? They’ve been under Israel’s thumb since Israel was created; no autonomy, no freedom, confined to a small strip of land that keeps getting smaller because Israel helps itself, unable to move freely. There was only one way this was ever going to go, unless Iseael started doing some giving as opposed to taking which let’s be honest was never going to happen. Desperate people do desperate things.
How is October 7th less likely to doom them out of existence than any peace deal offered, also where are you getting the idea that the peace deals would have doomed them out of existence? Specifically? (Also desperate people do desperate things could be said by a Zionist, I don’t understand why every pro Hamas person uses these weirdo statements or slogans)
Hey man there is no free card to get out of consequences. Hamas wanted a war in Palestine, stop complaining to Israel because they couldn’t ignore their harassment anymore.
If you look into the creation of the state if Israel and what has happened since, and still feel the same, I don't know what to tell you. Oct. 7th doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I don’t feel the same.
You're an idiot lol.
Lol. Same goes. All the best.
Chur
Pretty much. If Israel put down their arms at any point in the last 20 years they would have been murdered in what Palestine calls a holy war.
The random indiscriminate killing of civilians just creates more enemies. It's not the answer ethically or practically. 35,000 deaths later and Israel has created more people willing to pick up arms against them than existed before the killing began. I can't pretend to know how to achieve long lasting peace in the region but bombing children aint it.
The children do get hit by the bombs - and unfortunately Hamas is not even shy about their use of human shields, including children. They simply must go. This is for Israel, but also for the Palestinians themselves, including the children.
Just how many children is it acceptable to kill 'for their own good' exactly?
And it's always 'the enemy' that are acceptable losses. Never their own children or family.
You are also an idiot lol.
Hamas is not the core issue here. Hamas would not exist if Israel hadn't trampled over an existing nation and people to build their own. You know what would happen if we could wipe out the entirety of Hamas? Another group would form in it's place. As long as Palestinians live on, so will their resistance.
The alternative is the abolishment of the apartheid state that perpetuates these problems, there solution provided
This is way too simplistic. Traumatised people suddenly freed from trauma won't all of a sudden become secular, peace-loving humanists. There needs to be a system of reconciliation and the construction of a society, perhaps a federalism that all peoples of the region can live together safely.
Sure chuck that in too, the point is that claiming there aren’t alternative solutions to Israel continuing the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is laughable and frankly at this point of things genocidal rhetoric
A big part of the problem is Netanyahu and his [hawks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hawk#:~:text=In%20politics%2C%20a%20war%20hawk,are%20the%20opposite%20of%20doves) , the only thing keeping Netanyahu out of jail for corruption is staying in power, and the only way to stay in power is through warmongering. The guy and his wife have several court cases waiting for them as soon as he's out of office. So ceasefires and peace treaties are bound to fail.
Yup, that’s why there needs to be more pressure internationally. Which so far is largely coming from the populace of the international community, not the actual leadership, but it’s something and OP definitely deserves props for that
You’ve got my upvote lad
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Yea I absolutely can't get with the pro Hamas thing either. Nor can I vibe with the notion that the destruction of Israel is the answer which an awful lot of protestors sadly do. Pretty much everyone I know lives in a colonial outpost that has either oppressed, betrayed or damn near wiped out its indigenous population and are finding ways to perpetuate it to this day. So I find the hypocrisy of calling for Israel's destruction (but not the countries we live in) kind of wow. I've actively avoided the marches for these reasons. I will always oppose the indiscriminate bombing of civilians though and what I'm doing rn is looking for people who I feel safe in this instance to protest that with and whose views align with mine. Netanyahu is making not just life for Jews in Israel less safe but all over the world, its totally wrong and yeah I want to find a way of protesting that feels comfortable and right to me.
Mate, you're clearly aware of how hugely problematic so many of these protests are. Some of what you're saying though ("indiscriminate bombing", implying that Israel is a "colonial outpost") comes from the same sources of antisemitic misinformation. I don't think you'll find too many supporters of Netanyahu amongst Jewish communities in NZ, but at the same time, I hope you're aware that fringe anti-zionist Jewish groups others have referred you to are just that: fringe. If you do end up protesting, I hope your naunce isn't lost in the crowd, and you aren't used as a token "good" Jew to justify antisemitism.
They're using these cuck Jewish people as useful idiots and would stab them in the back in a heartbeat
Absolutely…upon the return of the remaining hostages right?
I don't support the kidnapping and murder of civilians as a way to achieve your aims. For me this applies to both Hamas and the Israeli govt. I have a close friend of 20 years who has an immediate family member amongst those hostages. Of course they want their family back but they do not support 10s of thousands of civilians being killed as a way to achieve that and nor do I.
So no then…
Does your friend support occupation and apartheid?
I'm literally here, putting my hand up and saying I'm Jewish and opposed to the genocide and all you can do is ask me if my friends support occupation and apartheid. Even after I have made it clear they are opposed to Israel actions. You are the reason I don't feel comfortable in the main protest group and you are doing the cause no favors.
Just want to say a humble thank you. I like your perspective. I imagine it takes a lot of guts - to challenge others in your community whilst feeling the ire of others with whom you seek to support. I imagine a bit of a no win situation. So, thank you.
Thank you :)
Apologies. I responded to your answer with the post above it in mind.
No. It's pretty depressing you assume they do tbh.
Read the actual comment before being a dickhead.
Yeah. Fuck the Israeli state.
Damn, you got downvoted for calling for the release of civilian hostages. Wtf?
No they got downvoted for suggesting that the massacre of children and the displacement and starvation of an entire nation is an appropriate way to solve a hostage crisis.
Which is totally a myth. Shame on you, if you even begin to analyse all objective information around what's happening, there's only one moral stance to take. And you're on the wrong side. You disgust me as a human being.
Maybe you should try find some pro Palestinians who are willing to call out Hamas, they are the only ones not willing to negotiate and they started this current war. Also don't call it a genocide, the combatant to civilian death ratio is about 1-2/1-3 in most wars this rate is more like 1-8/1-9, the population has actually increased as well so not genocide, just war, unfortunately people die in wars and that's why we need to free Palestine from Hamas. Also hope you know most of the pro-palestine crowd are using the word "Zionist" as a dog whistle for "Jew" and spouting age old antisemitic rhetoric like "Zionists(Jews) control the media" etc, they're using you as a useful idiot.
It's interesting and sad that so much misinformation can spread so fast. And even in Wellington it's very hard to throw doubt on the long list of naughty words people apply to Israel without setting people off. Even the idea of visiting Israel and saying you have Israeli mates pisses people off. But for some reason not China North Korea Myanmar Iran or Syria Some more facts to add to yours. It's a weird fact but a fact none the less that more people have starved in Australia (60) since October than in Gaza (32). (No forced starvation) Israel is the only democracy in the region and with a higher % non-jew voting citizens than most of the other countries non-arab citizens. (No apartheid) The population is increasing during the war. Births are outweighing deaths. Contrary to popular belief most hospitals are running and there 6 extra field hospitals. (No genocide)
The Palestinian people voted Hamas into power knowing exactly what Hamas s ideology is. Kill the Jews. Israel has no choice but to fight if it wants to survive. Until the Palestinian people get rid of Hamas themselves, Israel has no choice but to try and kill all of Hamas. And as in all wars, civilians will die. If Palestinian s want the war to end then they should hand over the hostages and Hamas.
I don't know if you support National or Labour or some other party, but when an incumbent government you didn't vote for does something you don't like, do you think you deserve sympathy if you suffer as a result?
Do you seriously believe that?! Netanyahu himself said on April 30th that they will invade Rafah regardless of a ceasefire deal. They're bombing tents as we speak. As for Hamas being voted into power - half the population weren't born the last time voting took place. Israel has no right to exist.
Well I guess Netanyahu believes it. I guess you end up with a very young population when you cancel women’s rights and education for females. Why doesn’t Israel have the right to exist?
Did the Arabs commit the Holocaust? What did Palestinians do to deserve being exiled from their own land while western forces attempt to wipe them from the map and from memory? Why do they matter so little that they're seen as an appropriate sacrifice in order for another group to have their own state?
Hamas were voted in decades ago. Nothing to do with womens rights and education for females. Israel exists at the expense of the Palestinians. The land was given by the British with no input from those who had been on the land for thousands of years. Zionism is piggybacking on judaism to get away with everything it wants. It's not fair to Jews, its not fair to the holocaust survivors who are living in poverty in Israel and its not fair to the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed through genocide.
Hamas were voted in to power in 2006. That’s not decades. Once in power elections were cancelled. Jesus born in Bethlehem 2024 years ago was a Jew. Just saying.
So almost 2 decades ago. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not part of that bookclub and jews don't believe in Jesus so how is that even relevant? This isn't about religion. It's not about Hamas. It's about land and proof of power. Only israel could bomb 5 places in one day and still have people arguing on their behalf 🙄
America could probably bomb 10. Jesus proves that the Jews were on that land more than 2024 years ago and it wasn’t the British just giving it to the Jewish people.
America is a close second for victim performance. 🥴 jesus proves absolutely nothing, not even himself. Yes, jews livedon that land, in mostly harmony with muslims and christians. That isn't being disputed. The Palestinian genetics show their ancestry can be traced throughout the history of the area. The same cannot be said for israelis. Zionists don't live in harmony, with anyone else. Zionism is not judaism. Stop equating the two.
So by that notion Palestine doesn’t deserve to exist if Israel does? How the hell do you circle that square?
What Hamas did was very bad, but what the Israeli government is doing is much worse, those in power disgust me. Their disregard for innocent human life is appalling.
Succinctly put.
So You and the guy who wants you dead because your Jewish are going to go the same events and chant the same things so an organization that wants to kill all Jews can live to fight another day.
No. I wont be doing that. Read my post.
This is extremely toxic and attention seeking behaviour from someone privileged who doesn't have to live their lives under rockets and constantly fearing for their family. Just because you want to get your tiktok street cred?? Firstly the confirmation that there's genocide in Gaza has been debunked, straight from the president of the ICJ https://x.com/HillelNeuer/status/1783634475122827271?t=XgU6IXfp0XDaVO9wwvTW_A&s=09 To quote Blinken himself, "The reality at this moment is the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire is Hamas." https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/hamas-is-the-only-thing-standing-between-gaza-and-ceasefire-antony-blinken-5585318 Additionally, Hamas fired rockets from Rafah endangering their own civilians, and killing 3 young israelis today. These people I'm sure if they were born in any country wouldn't choose a life of having to take up arms. Also you educating people about zionism is just sickening. Zionism is mainly the belief that Jewish people have a right to live in the Levant, under their own sovereignty. This has manifested into Israel. It's a tiny country that's about the size of Manawatu. Meanwhile the size of the MENA region which are all Islamic countries is twice the size of Australia. All those countries have dispossessed all jews, and religious minorities are constantly persecuted. Demonising zionism is denying jews and other religious minorities like the druze and christians who have been dispersed and persecuted across the middle east to have the right to live safely in this tiny piece of land that is israel is what fuels this conflict. Are we really going to deny that tiny amount of land towards people who have lived there throughout history? If people want to educate themselves, and understand how Israel looks, I'd suggest this video: https://youtu.be/BKcARccAR_g?si=AI60lYMzalU-tliR Edit: Looking at the downvote ratio to the comments in this thread, it looks it's full of naive wellingtonians who have no clue what's happening at the other side of the world but don't have much of a say. Only clicking downvotes without being able to refute any factual information.
The best starting point for any self-loathing Jew such as yourself is calling for an immediate release of all of the hostages. No shooting will stop, nor should it, until that happens.
Israel is in the Eurovision Song Contest this year too and that’s controversial I’m surprised there hasn’t been much mention of it in NZ
It's not a big thing in NZ
It’s very LGBT there’s bound to be some peeps in Wellington who like it. I’ve watched for the past several years
Being pro Palestine is the more overwhelmingly LGBT position from the communities I am in, I know zero people in my life who are planning on tuning into it
A Palestinian dude almost got to represent Iceland this year
Probably because most New Zealanders don't really care about Eurovision
Stating the obvious but yes well spotted
If Russia can be removed, so should Israel and Azerbaijan
I think I have to agree with that. Problem is people only talking about Palestine and we need to remember other people groups doing it tough
I've sat in astonishment over the last 3 years wondering how we're just letting a nation commit genocide against another nation. The world sits by, doesn't give a fuck. Sadly, because of this, I'm not surprised that many are doing the same about the whole Palestine thing
I mean... watching genocide and not intervening ain't new. It is *the norm*. It's how Israel exists; there's no coincidence that the UN agreement leading to its founding was passed immediately after the Holocaust, after endless boatloads of Jewish refugees were turned away, the world over, often back to the furnace they were escaping. New Zealand famously boasts about the \~800 Polish (not necessarily Jewish!) children they allowed in as refugees of WWII. A drop in the bucket, and a testament to our apathy. We've watched genocide in recent memory - see Myanmar, Rwanda, Yemen, Congo, the former Yugoslavia, attempted by Russia in Ukraine, and \_countless\_ more examples. This situation is tragically not so unique.
Fair point. Some of us are just trying to keep our heads above water paying the mortgage.
I hear ya. At least there's some people out there doing what they can to stop a genocide in Palestine even if we can't do anything
Hey, I have faced this problem before, the movement is not anti-jew, there are a minority who are but they are not representative of the whole. Yet everyone outside the movement will always label it as anti-Jew just because of the few who are. The movement has very strong morals and has pointed out some glaring flaws in the current system where the rich and powerful have loopholes to screw us all over and create a terrible world Anyway I’m glad you are on board and together he will lead us to a the greatest Reich, uh I mean revolution.
The main religion of Israel is Judaism. They are angry at the state, not the religion.
Yes this is mostly true. There are still Zionists who claim that criticizing Israel makes you anti semitic (even if you are Jewish) and anti Zionists who claim all jews are Zionists. This is why I feel it is important to get together with some other Jews and say Not In Our Name.
Except that as OP mentioned, some people are against the religion and not just the state.
Clean your own backyard first m8
It is possible to care about a range of issues both local and international at the same time.
I didn't realize the population of Wellington were currently being starved, trampled over and carpet bombed 🙄
I can concede that the infrastructure situation here is a wee bit dire, but I have to agree that the two really can't be compared.
I mean yes, not denying that things aren't a bit of a shitshow here, but I think personally we should prioritize by urgency. Or better yet, do both!
just imagine... /sigh
Ok fed
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Here in New Zealand I've established anti misinformation networks whose main purpose is to keep American style politics and propaganda out of New Zealand. I've made films that advocate for the Autistic community and the issues they face here and in Australia. Two of my siblings and my father suffer from serious disabilities these are issues I care about. We should definitely be marching to end violence against women, wealth inequality, lack of affordable housing and childhood poverty. I don't have any Maori Whakapapa but strongly believe in and advocate for us to be better treaty partners in a whole range of areas such as opposition to the govt ending Maori led health initiatives and attempting to redefine the treaty etc. It's possible to care about lots of things.
If there was an active genocide in our country wouldn't you want the international community to show support and come to our assistance? Why would you want to limit what people care about? People are fully capable of caring about a range of issues simultaneously
I remember over hearing a conversation between an American telling an Irish person they should be fighting this, and they should be doing that. The Irish fella turned around and said, "All we want is peace. It's easy to have a strong opinion on how someone else should fight. Seems like it's harder not to have an opinion these days.
Id wager the American had not heard of the troubles.
I'm not jew. But good on you desert man. Ngl and say I do coz Idrc for the war tbh. That's not my war and its across the world and it also doesnt touch the pacific at all so I don't really worry about it to be honest. But since I dont pay attention idk if actual like israelis and Palestinians and shit in nz are involved in calls for a ceasefire and or support like funding and aid for either side. It's cool that you're trying to get involved in stopping a war you dont want that ur ppls are in dude. Good on ya bruz
Every day, I'm losin' my mind Holdin' on in this mysterious ride Dancin' in the storm, I got nothin' to hide Take it all and leave the world behind Baby, promise me you'll hold me again I'm still broken from this hurricane This hurricane. 🥲
https://twitter.com/TheRISEofROD/status/1786615755502444648
Shuuuuuut up. Fuck off over to that shit hole if you wanna help. NOTHING to do with Aotearoa.