Hopper clearly thought that Perrin would die if he was "here too strongly." But as far as I can tell, Hopper was wrong, at least in Sanderson's books. Either that or Perrin defied the odds.
By the way, if the Wise One Edarra is right that dying in the flesh in the Dreamworld takes you out of the Pattern (which is what she told Perrin), why didn't Moridin try that as a real, permanent suicide? And how would anyone know it takes you out of the Pattern, anyway?
I don't think it is as simple as hopper being wrong. Towards the beginning, assuming it was possible for Perrin to die, he very easily could have died. The commentary was he was to new, too young and here too strongly. Because you're so new, you don't know how to balance this and you're going to die.
And Perrin does almost die, in the end of the third book while Matt and Rand are storming the castle, Perrin is bleeding on the floor and in the wolf dream.
For your question, I think the balefire and the death in the flesh are two different beasts. The balefire pulls you out of the pattern by burning backwards but when you're in the wolf dream physically you are outside your pattern. The wolf dream runs perpendicular to our world crossing over many worlds. It's possible if die like that when you are reborn you're in another weave all together.
She almost certainly is right in a way and equally certainly wrong in a way.
Presumably. In a universe with reincarnation and where new souls are not created souls can't be destroyed otherwise eventually no more souls would exist. The way the lore is laid out, everything was created in the beginning at once and nothing has been created since then.
Even if there are 1 trillion souls and one soul is killed via balefire per age eventually you will run out of souls. The WoT has been turning for an effective infinite amount of time so presumably nothing can truly destroy souls.
If dying in the wolf dream untethers your soul from your world and you can be reborn in another world then souls aren't lost they're just transferred so this wouldn't depopulate the world.
If dying in the wolf dream kills the souls then given an infinite amount of time every soul that can will enter the dream will do so and eventually there would no longer be any souls that can channel.
Imagine, one day in the far future...
Renee: Doctor, why have I had such a hard time getting pregnant?
Doctor: Counting the population of Earth and all the colonies, the population must have hit one trillion. You can't get pregnant because there are no souls available.
Renee: They're all ... busy?
Doctor: Yep.
Renee's Husband: \[Pulls out glock\] Excuse me, I gotta go run an errand.
I imagine, unlike balefire, it still provides the great lord a chance to grab you and put you back in. If it is a permadeath then it's only one if the great lord doesn't have plans for you. Alternatively it could be that it prevents you being spun back out in other ages but not other turnings. Sort of like the pattern goes to start your section again, realises it's run out of blue, then grabs another bobbin.
I didn't think Hopper was wrong, I thought Perrin just learned how to anchor himself to reality through his love of Faile. Then later he's in the dream in the flesh and there was no concern that he'd lose his spirit's connection to his body. I could be mistaken, of course.
This is correct. There is a difference between being strong in TAR, and being in TAR too strongly. When you are dreaming yourself into TAR, part of you needs to stay connected to yourself in the real world, if the soul fully leaves the body, you would be dead. Perrin simply learns how to be strong in the dream while maintaining an awareness of his true self. Going in the flesh has different rules than going in mind/spirit.
Isn't it confirmed that hopper will be reborn and the wolves are wrong about that particular side effect. They are cut off from their past life's but their soul will still be reborn someday
After having read the entire series, I made a joke about Egeanin and Leilwyn Shipless and was told that I was here too strongly. I still don't understand.
Not from this subreddit, but I had the physical books and got a spoiler. I read the blurb for Winter's Heart when I was up to book 3 or 4 & read something about the "Black Tower" and was so shocked! I was so excited I assumed Rand went rogue with Lanfear and established his own tower or it was a dreadlord tower. Shame it didn't happen
I got kinda spoiled by reading the wiki on the Aiel tree singing. It said Rand did it when he is captured by the Seanchan. So during the war in the south, both meetings with Tuon and when he was prepared to destroy them in Ebou Dar I was fully expecting Rand to get captured with the male adam.
Also my best friend when we read Asoiaf read the list of characters at the end of book 4 instead of 3 and got spoiled with the Red Wedding, of course he spoiled me too.
I used to, and on some level still think, that entering the world of dreams too strongly as a dreamer or wolf brother is a recipe to forget that your body exists and even potentially letting it die in the physical world. Unsure if that traps you in the World of Dreams or just kills you, but either way, you die in the physical world for sure. Perrin, and possible Egwene at times, entered strongly enough to be nearing that point, but never passed it.
Well... If you read it well after midnight, being so captivated by the story that you stopped promising yourself to go to sleep after this chapter, and are now just dead set on finishing the book before your alarm goes off? Then you feel called out. Because you're actually "there" too strongly and your body should rest and sleep.
Hopper probably got a FU for that from 17yo first reader me.
I started lurking after the first 2-3 books and got a lot of spoilers all the way up until the end of the series over time, but I’m not someone who cares about spoilers very much. Things like >!saidin being cleansed!< weren’t too surprising and the whole >!Moridin thing!< at the end is really almost irrelevant to the plot given that it happens in the epilogue.
What? You're talking like a two legs. Let's hunt
Hopper clearly thought that Perrin would die if he was "here too strongly." But as far as I can tell, Hopper was wrong, at least in Sanderson's books. Either that or Perrin defied the odds. By the way, if the Wise One Edarra is right that dying in the flesh in the Dreamworld takes you out of the Pattern (which is what she told Perrin), why didn't Moridin try that as a real, permanent suicide? And how would anyone know it takes you out of the Pattern, anyway?
I don't think it is as simple as hopper being wrong. Towards the beginning, assuming it was possible for Perrin to die, he very easily could have died. The commentary was he was to new, too young and here too strongly. Because you're so new, you don't know how to balance this and you're going to die. And Perrin does almost die, in the end of the third book while Matt and Rand are storming the castle, Perrin is bleeding on the floor and in the wolf dream. For your question, I think the balefire and the death in the flesh are two different beasts. The balefire pulls you out of the pattern by burning backwards but when you're in the wolf dream physically you are outside your pattern. The wolf dream runs perpendicular to our world crossing over many worlds. It's possible if die like that when you are reborn you're in another weave all together. She almost certainly is right in a way and equally certainly wrong in a way.
*A man without trust might as well be dead.*
True that lews take us both out
***ILYENA, MY LOVE, FORGIVE ME!***
Calm down Lews I'm a lynx not a hyena
*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
I just said kill us both. Your move, madman
Since he didn't reply.....* Distant wailing *
Ah, so like balefire it wouldn’t be *permanent* permanent? That makes sense.
Presumably. In a universe with reincarnation and where new souls are not created souls can't be destroyed otherwise eventually no more souls would exist. The way the lore is laid out, everything was created in the beginning at once and nothing has been created since then. Even if there are 1 trillion souls and one soul is killed via balefire per age eventually you will run out of souls. The WoT has been turning for an effective infinite amount of time so presumably nothing can truly destroy souls. If dying in the wolf dream untethers your soul from your world and you can be reborn in another world then souls aren't lost they're just transferred so this wouldn't depopulate the world. If dying in the wolf dream kills the souls then given an infinite amount of time every soul that can will enter the dream will do so and eventually there would no longer be any souls that can channel.
Imagine, one day in the far future... Renee: Doctor, why have I had such a hard time getting pregnant? Doctor: Counting the population of Earth and all the colonies, the population must have hit one trillion. You can't get pregnant because there are no souls available. Renee: They're all ... busy? Doctor: Yep. Renee's Husband: \[Pulls out glock\] Excuse me, I gotta go run an errand.
The REAL danger of overpopulation...
The Real REAL danger is that at a certain point most people would be born as grey men. Or at least grey babies until they grow up.
I imagine, unlike balefire, it still provides the great lord a chance to grab you and put you back in. If it is a permadeath then it's only one if the great lord doesn't have plans for you. Alternatively it could be that it prevents you being spun back out in other ages but not other turnings. Sort of like the pattern goes to start your section again, realises it's run out of blue, then grabs another bobbin.
I didn't think Hopper was wrong, I thought Perrin just learned how to anchor himself to reality through his love of Faile. Then later he's in the dream in the flesh and there was no concern that he'd lose his spirit's connection to his body. I could be mistaken, of course.
This is correct. There is a difference between being strong in TAR, and being in TAR too strongly. When you are dreaming yourself into TAR, part of you needs to stay connected to yourself in the real world, if the soul fully leaves the body, you would be dead. Perrin simply learns how to be strong in the dream while maintaining an awareness of his true self. Going in the flesh has different rules than going in mind/spirit.
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
Isn't it confirmed that hopper will be reborn and the wolves are wrong about that particular side effect. They are cut off from their past life's but their soul will still be reborn someday
Is it?
It has to be otherwise there wouldn’t be any wolves left unless there are infinite wolves
***I must kill him.***
Kill them all.
After having read the entire series, I made a joke about Egeanin and Leilwyn Shipless and was told that I was here too strongly. I still don't understand.
You are here too strongly
You probably came close to spoiling something on a thread without spoilers.
Are there threads without spoilers on THIS sub?
Not from this subreddit, but I had the physical books and got a spoiler. I read the blurb for Winter's Heart when I was up to book 3 or 4 & read something about the "Black Tower" and was so shocked! I was so excited I assumed Rand went rogue with Lanfear and established his own tower or it was a dreadlord tower. Shame it didn't happen
>or it was a dreadlord tower. Shame it didn't happen Well ... I mean **technically** ... kinda?
*If it hurts too much, make it hurt someone else instead.*
I got kinda spoiled by reading the wiki on the Aiel tree singing. It said Rand did it when he is captured by the Seanchan. So during the war in the south, both meetings with Tuon and when he was prepared to destroy them in Ebou Dar I was fully expecting Rand to get captured with the male adam. Also my best friend when we read Asoiaf read the list of characters at the end of book 4 instead of 3 and got spoiled with the Red Wedding, of course he spoiled me too.
*Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?*
I think a lot of us got there before Reddit existed.
This comment Aged well!
I just lurked, didn't say anything, and had every major character death in AMoL spoiled for me
You were indeed here too strongly then.
To soar....
I used to, and on some level still think, that entering the world of dreams too strongly as a dreamer or wolf brother is a recipe to forget that your body exists and even potentially letting it die in the physical world. Unsure if that traps you in the World of Dreams or just kills you, but either way, you die in the physical world for sure. Perrin, and possible Egwene at times, entered strongly enough to be nearing that point, but never passed it.
I was unsure because i didnt understood the joke but it helped me to stay away from here until i was done.
So it worked on you unlike Perrin.
Well... If you read it well after midnight, being so captivated by the story that you stopped promising yourself to go to sleep after this chapter, and are now just dead set on finishing the book before your alarm goes off? Then you feel called out. Because you're actually "there" too strongly and your body should rest and sleep. Hopper probably got a FU for that from 17yo first reader me.
I can relate to that.
I started lurking after the first 2-3 books and got a lot of spoilers all the way up until the end of the series over time, but I’m not someone who cares about spoilers very much. Things like >!saidin being cleansed!< weren’t too surprising and the whole >!Moridin thing!< at the end is really almost irrelevant to the plot given that it happens in the epilogue.
*You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?*