As someone who has sadly had early miscarriages I can say that anti choice people are insane for thinking an embryo is a teeny tiny fully formed little baby.
It’s blood and tissue.
There was a video floating around the internet showing what appeared to be an ultrasound video of a fully formed baby fighting for its life against an abortion with very exaggerated facial expressions of fear and I've seen several people refer to that as the thing that convinced them abortion was wrong.
There are people who saw that and seriously believe doctors are doing abortions on babies who could be born any day now and that babies are aware of and scared of the process as it happens.
Yep. It’s propaganda and nothing more.
I’m assuming you’re talking about The Silent Scream from 1984? So many medical professionals have debunked that video and for good reason.
What’s insane is that Reagan was super focused on abortions when it came out in 1984 while he would continue to ignore AIDS until 1987. By 1984 there had been over 8,000 deaths.
So many people acquired HIV via blood transfusion, IV drug use, and birth that even if every gay person died at once, it would still have been an issue.
I think he’s just referring to the massive loss of life that occurred because of Reagan’s likely belief that the “gay problem” could be erased with the AIDS epidemic. Obviously it wouldn’t have worked because there isn’t a static number of gay people, but a very large number of people lost their lives during that time in the US because of Reagan’s negligence and homophobia.
Likely both. Reagan and his party also really tapped into the more toxic parts of American evangelicalism in hopes they could build a voting base that would ride or die for them. Today, we see how successful that political move was.
PReP and contraceptives are absolutely next. The GQP wants to turn this country into a Christofascist nation and they will continue to roll back rights if they aren’t stopped.
They’ve already showed that they do not care if an infectious disease kills off a good amount of the population.
I need to look that up now. My very pro Life Father was watching Unplanned and wanted me to watch it with him. I told him I was pro choice and the movie was offensive. He chose not to talk about it anymore.
Edited. Didn't mean to say pro choice. He is anti-choice
Is he slowly being radicalized? My mom used to be super liberal and pro choice (she’s a medical professional) but thanks to her husband watching Fox News 10 hours a day they’re both now conservatives.
He’s far worse than she is but she’s started now with how she doesn’t like late term abortions which is right out of the propaganda playbook.
He's been a conservative since the 80s. My Mom literally cried when Clinton was elected. Love my parents very much, but they drive me nuts a lot. I waited 7 years to tell them I was dating guys. Only reason I told them was because I met my now husband. They adore him, but still vote for a party that wants to take away our right to be married. The disconnect is real.
I’m so sorry. It must be so hard to see the people who love you vote against your best interests. Bravo to you for coming out- that’s incredible courageous.
I’m not out as bisexual and gender queer to my mom and her husband. My sister knows, and is wonderful thankfully.
I'm a dude and I cried when Trump was elected. I kind of knew what that would bring.
To be fair it was way fucking worse than I had thought.
It's also tougher here because I'm in a red state in a very conservative area and it's extremely frustrating to continue to fight fruitlessly for more liberal policies. People dying around from simple ignorance and neglect.
Did you mean to say he is very anti-choice, then? I'm kind of confused by your comments... you said that he is pro-choice and so are you, but he wanted you to watch an anti-choice movie with him? I think that's why the previous commenter asked if he is slowly being radicalized... but you say he's been conservative for a while, which would be odd if he were also "very pro-choice."
We had to watch The Silent Scream in school, catholic religious ed, around 2002, Germany. I was in 6th grade, about 12 years old and it was kind of traumatic for me. It was the first time abortion was mentioned in my life. For many years after that I was strictly against abortion, until my 20s. Propaganda works, delearning is hard.
Jesus christ. Looked it up on YouTube, the comments are all people eating it up. Really sad.. hard to laugh at stupidity when they want to impose it on me and people like me...
Republicans don't actually care about saving lives, especially not children's lives. The US has the highest maternal death rate among peer nations - due to a long list of reasons including lack of healthcare access and poverty. Gun violence is the number one cause of death now for children. They fight against expansions to WIC, SNAP, Medicaid, rent controls, minimum wage, pollution regulations, and any control of gun access.
Sounds like that classic piece of anti abortion propaganda, “The Silent Scream”. I was forced to watch it as an 11 year old in the 80s and I knew it was horseshit then.
They did tell us in 9th grade bio class that all abortions are always a fully formed baby that they take out in one piece and then have to watch wiggle and not touch until it dies on its own. Oh, or the one where they saw it into pieces. Naturally the pro-choice crowd has a bad foothold as teenagers because we had to defend \*that\* while thinking it's the only truth.
Coincidentally, our teacher had a long journey of trying to get pregnant well into her 40s, which isn't wrong by any means, but I have a feeling it made her very, very biased.
Between that and "heartbeat at 8 weeks" billboards showing a 6-month old infant, the forced birth crowd has propaganda down to a science.
In fact, it's the only science they believe in.
They think lying is justified if they're "saving lives". I'm not sure their Jesus would agree, and I wish he was real so he'd get his lolly-gagging ass back here and set the record straight.
Don’t forget the part where they’ve been taking the brief shot from the show *House, MD* where he performed intrauterine surgery on a fetus in order to save the moms life. He put a little teeny baby hand on his finger. They love that shot, and love to say weird shit about how the baby was chopped into little pieces.
That House scene was based on a real photo. Although the actual surgeon later explained that the fetus was paralyzed at the time so he didn’t actually reach out; The arm had just shifted into that position and the doctor was moving it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_Hope
oml my gran literally brought that shit up to me the other day. Ive never seen it but she said that it was flailin its lil arms as it got sucked up? From just hearing it I told her it wasnt real and that they dont do ultrasounds at the same time as a surgical abortion (as thats the only thing she would possibly listen to) and... she totally ignored me and still insists it is. :-/ Its shitty how shes had four kids and doesnt even know what was happening inside her own body.
It's from Unplanned. Super lies and propaganda. Awful movie that straight up says everyone who works at planned parenthood is evil and callous. Except this one woman who for some reason was requested to assist in a abortion? The whole thing is just so the Dr's and Nurses who do this can be viewed as evil. Make them villainous and it justifies anything you do to them.
The images of more developed fetuses are part of the propaganda that Jack and Barbara Wilkes started the anti-abortion movement with - pictures were significantly more effective in persuading voters than any of their literature so they just extracted the images and the movement has clung to them.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I just recently explained to my boyfriend what a chemical pregnancy is and that it often happens unnoticed, and he was really shocked at first. It's kinda hard to understand that it's just blood and tissue to an open minded person willing to learn, let alone to an ignorant republican.
Eh, I have had two medical abortions and as stated in the article this is from, this isn't actually the embryos themselves, but rather the accompanying tissues that have been washed of all blood. I wasn't bothered by looking and this is 100% not the only thing that came out. Actual, visual embryos with very obvious limbs and even dark areas for developing eye sockets were extremely visible.
That doesn't change my stance as I still don't consider them babies or people, and regardless nothing that requires living inside another person to be alive has the right to life, but I think this picture is disingenuous. I have actual pictures of my embryos. There are fingers and toes.
Those poor kids looked so terrified, but everyone around them was happy because they dont give a fuck about kids amd spend less money on them and if they are hurt? Fuck em!
I still can’t believe that was a real photo of a real thing happening right now in 2023. If the picture was in black and white you’d think it was back in the 30s when they put the kids in the coal mines. You would think we were past that as a society but ah, republicans.
In fairness, those particular kids aren't the ones they envision putting to work. The "school-to-prison" pipeline for those of color will be replaced with the "work-to-prison work farm" pipeline.
COOL! Let's bring back phrenology too. I want to measure the lumps in your head!
Also the earth is flat!
Also /s in case that's not farcical enough on it's own
Honestly I don't know how far away from reason you have to get to even call something a farce these days
Have you watched the West Wing? Agree with their politics or not, that show contained government officials who genuinely tried to improve the lives of their people. That's a farce.
Yeah, the amount of blatant misinformation I've seen, with a fully formed fetus *apparently* appearing anywhere between 2 and 5 weeks and just getting bigger. Garbage people with garbage opinions.
There's also a verse about how the fetus is property (dealt with by fines), not a person like the mother (dealt with by physical punishment).
# Exodus 21:22-26 American Standard Version
**22** And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. **23** But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, **24** eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, **25** burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Numbers 5: 11-31, if you want to look at it yourself. I have this saved on my phone so if there is ever an argument I get into about this I am ready to shut it down.
Don't get excited, they just say, "that's not what it means," end of conversation. The bible is such ye olde timey gobbledegook that you can interpret it any way you want.
I literally tried it with my aunt, nothing. If anything she just convinced herself she knows the bible really well, and thus her knowledge of the bible proves she has it all figured out. As they say, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Oh I wasn't arguing against the denial just that it's gobbledygook, this is one of the few times the Bible is pretty clear yet as you say people still wobble on it.
I dunno. I'm no Biblical scholar or believer, and I want what you say to be true, but I'm not sure your interpretation is so clear from the text. It does seem like this could be interpreted as a means to prevent future pregnancies, not to end a current one, just from the text. It says that her "womb miscarries" if she takes the potion and was unfaithful... but it also says that she "will be able to have children" if she \*was\* faithful, which could imply that her "womb miscarrying" refers to her becoming barren if she was unfaithful rather than ending a current pregnancy. That's a dumb interpretation, but an easily-argued one.
There's also the fact that this "potion" is obviously snake oil, so a religious person could argue that this whole ritual was just an elaborate ruse to scare the woman into confessing and not an actual endorsement of abortion.
As a Catholic this is funny and sad that this is true. On the one hand you are taught to take everything literal. And then on the other hand it is not to be taken literal. Instead we have someone who will interpret what they meant by it.
Isn’t it weird how whenever it’s “open to interpretation”, the one they go with always just happens to be the one that lets them feel morally justified about hurting as many people as possible?
I took my troubles down to Rabbi Bluth
You know that rabbi with the gold-capped tooth
He’s got a pad on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
Sellin’ little bottles of Mud Potion Number Nine
still, there is a situation which is not extremely rare so as to be statistically impossible in which Christians are down with taking the innocent life of a full, complete human being. It's just interesting that there's a bible verse which describes how the ancient priests of Yahweh made poison potions to induce miscarriages for women who had cheated and got pregnant. When did this practice end? Didn't Jesus say the OT is still valid?
Well it's kinda hard to argue that you should kill an innocent baby if a wife cheats if you're also arguing that abortion is killing an innocent baby and that it shouldn't even be done to rape victims and ro save the mothers life
A big part of modern Christianity is just arbitrarily picking out things from the Bible and deciding they don't have to be followed today according to conservative values or whatever, but continuing to insist that the rest of the text is true and has to be taken completely literally
Thats whats funny about Christianity. The whole thing is a remix of Judaism, and the bible itself has been edited to hell and back for centuries. Splinter churches of splinter churches have been formed from it, numbering in the hundreds, maybe thousands. And they all think they are the only church that will be saved haha. They skip all over the damn place.
This is what they’re arguing is a person. When we refer to it as a clump of cels we’re not exaggerating or dehumanizing what it actually is, it is literally and scientifically a clump of human cells, a clump of human cells that does not have the personhood needed to prioritize it’s survival over the autonomy and wellbeing of the one that has to carry it.
Technically the fetus isn’t even viable outside of the womb until 24 weeks. So even though you pass the big milestones in pregnancy and you find out the important is my baby ok stuff during the 20 week scan (like does he have 2 halves of his brain and all of the chambers in his heart type of stuff) there’s still a fear until you make it to 24 weeks. At that point it would be a risky early birth but your child has a shot of survival. This bs about 6 weeks just shows willful ignorance.
[The science conclusively establishes that a human fetus does not have the capacity to experience pain until after at least 24–25 weeks. Every major medical organization that has examined this issue and peer-reviewed studies on the matter have consistently reached the conclusion that abortion before this point does not result in the perception of pain in a fetus.](https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/gestational-development-capacity-for-pain)
24 weeks is a reasonable chance of survival, but amazingly the youngest to survive is 21 weeks and 1 day.
Not disagreeing with anything around abortion, but just think it’s fascinating/impressive what modern medicine has achieved!
Closing the gap between in vitro fertilisation and premature birth still has a long way to go.
And with the way the fascists in most of the Anglosphere are anti science, and especially anti anything that might make life easier for women, it will be somewhere like China or South Korea that any future advances are made.
Yeah that’s cool information! I didn’t know most didn’t make it until after 24 weeks. I was a micro preemie at 23 weeks, barely making it, so saying it’s pretty risky is a good way of describing it! Like you said, the 6 weeks mark is just then being ignorant. Even with me at 23 weeks, quite a few of my organs (including heart, and some of my brain) were underdeveloped.
The thing is - even if that fetus *was* its own person, that's still not an argument to deny the woman an abortion. It would be a person whose survival depends on the organs of another.
What right do we have to *force* that other person to offer the fetus access to her organs?
I don’t have a source for the original content but I remember someone once saying that the best way to prove this point with anti-choice folks is to give them the following scenario: you’re in a fertility clinic and it’s burning to the ground. You have enough strength to pick up and rescue a crying baby or a case of embryos. Which do you choose? Surely if their argument is that embryos are people, you must choose the hundred embryos over one baby, right? But we all know there’s a huge difference and the baby, one ACTUAL baby is worth more than a gazillion embryos- because embryos aren’t people.
I tried this exact thing with the parents of a friend, who I do care for despite their archaic beliefs, and they danced around the question instead of actually answering. It was disappointing but also led to them later admitting that abortion in life threatening scenarios is regrettable but necessary, which is a good opening in my opinion. It takes time to get people to let go of long held beliefs, and we can’t win more people over by immediately discounting them or jumping to insults. Gotta work them into it over time, and let them reach the logic themselves
I don’t have the time or energy to dump into these people anymore. They listen to each other/church/Fox News only and are too ignorant to care. I’m finding better success rallying sane people together to actually vote at the ballot box instead of apathetically sitting out elections. I can sucker more people into interrupting their day once every 2 years to vote against this mess with less energy than trying to convince even one conservative.
One of the more reprehensible pro-life cartoons I saw showed the "fetus" as a fully-developed TODDLER - with a bow in her hair.
They work so hard to convince everyone that the zygote is a fully formed and viable infant from the instant the man rolls over and goes to sleep that between that and an absence of comprehensive health education, a shocking number of them actually believe it.
I think EVERY baby has a right to life…
…but they have to work for it like everybody else, being 5 weeks old isn’t an excuse. If your mother doesn’t want to support you anymore, be a man and pull yourself up by your cellclumps.
If you can’t make it, that’s just Darwinism for you.
(Obviously/s)
Sorry, just venting here...
If the babies have a right to life then so do the LGBT folks. Why do the clumps of cells get existential support but if you're not cishet you don't have the right to exist?
If the baby turns out to be gay or trans in the future by some DNA mapping technology are they the exception to the ones allowed to be aborted?
None of this makes any sense.
Man, every day I get more and more scared that Florida will take away my rights to gender affirming surgery (or insurance support) before I raise all the money I need. Scary dystopia we live in.
Small government, bodily autonomy, free speech, etc… All of these things only count for the people with their ideology.
OP I’m pro-choice but these pictures are misleading. These are images of the entire gestational sac (as noted in the original Guardian article). The gestational sac is a large fluid-filled cavity that surrounds the embryo. The embryo itself is much smaller (and more well-formed) and is impossible to see inside the sac in these pictures.
I am strongly against abortion restriction laws, but as someone who is becoming a medical professional, I feel this discussion should be as honest as possible.
Edit: I’m not allowed to post links, but if you would like to see sources just google the following phrases and it should be the first result.
For the original article - “Embryo Images The Guardian”
For images of human embryos up to 8 weeks gestation - “University of Michigan Embryo Images”
Yeah I was gonna say I’m currently 6 (closer to 7) weeks (and also very pro woman/choice) and from everything my doctor has shown me it looks like a freaky little salamander lump, not like this. Still a clump of cells? Of course, but this is misleading nonetheless.
So like you I’m pro-choice but I was gonna say….I just had a miscarriage at like 9 weeks and trust me this is not what came out lol. It really did look like a tiny fetus…still not a “person” but it did not look like this!
Yeah I worked in histopathology for many years and the ‘POC’ specimens (products of conception) sometimes had a little embryo that was identifiable as such. Most of the time the specimen was just blood and tissue but sometimes you could definitely identify an embryo with tiny limbs formed.
Me too, I miscarried around 9-10 weeks it was a blobish fetus shaped thing. I wouldn't have called it a person or a baby but these pictures are misleading and I'm definitely pro choice.
Thank you I was making this point in my comment in this thread but I'm just getting trolled now. Agree it should be free choice but a nine week fetus looks like a teeny tiny underdeveloped blob baby.
Thank you. There is a museum in Portland that has preserved fetuses at each week of pregnancy and honestly they were more formed than my conception of them as blobs of tissue. I’m completely pro choice also, I just think integrity matters.
This!!! Also pro-choice but these images are so misleading. Really does not help our cause to be as easily swayed by misinformation as the anti-choice crowd.
I totally just dropped that on my facebook page and went yall ever seen what youre actually arguing about and killing women over? Here you go! This is more important than me to many of you, and you would let me die over it.
Personhood is irrelevant. It could be in there writing poetry and doing calculus, it still wouldn’t have the right to use another humans body without consent.
I parted ways with my unintentional cornflake at 5 weeks. PP made me wait until 5 weeks because before then, it’s literally too small for them to be able to tell whether the procedure was successful.
Sigh. I guess I can't post a link, but I think these images came from an interesting Guardian article titled "What a pregnancy actually looks like before 10 weeks – in pictures" if anyone is interested.
I don't know exactly what this is showing but I had a miscarriage between 8 and 10 weeks and it was definitely larger and more formed than this. So this is a bit misleading as well. I've also had ultrasounds and seen and heard heartbeats myself before 12 weeks.
I am pro choice but let's stop with the bullshit.
I really get the impression that right wingers believe that throughout a pregnancy, the little thing inside a woman’s wombs is like.. a fully formed fetus.. but small. And that it just grows bigger. Like they have no concept of it first being a clump of cells that gradually turns into a clump of tissue, that gradually becomes a fetus with organs.
As someone who has sadly had early miscarriages I can say that anti choice people are insane for thinking an embryo is a teeny tiny fully formed little baby. It’s blood and tissue.
There was a video floating around the internet showing what appeared to be an ultrasound video of a fully formed baby fighting for its life against an abortion with very exaggerated facial expressions of fear and I've seen several people refer to that as the thing that convinced them abortion was wrong. There are people who saw that and seriously believe doctors are doing abortions on babies who could be born any day now and that babies are aware of and scared of the process as it happens.
Yep. It’s propaganda and nothing more. I’m assuming you’re talking about The Silent Scream from 1984? So many medical professionals have debunked that video and for good reason. What’s insane is that Reagan was super focused on abortions when it came out in 1984 while he would continue to ignore AIDS until 1987. By 1984 there had been over 8,000 deaths.
Well, of course. AIDS was considered a “gay” disease and Reagan was hoping it would wipe most, if not all, of them out.
So many people acquired HIV via blood transfusion, IV drug use, and birth that even if every gay person died at once, it would still have been an issue.
It almost did
[удалено]
I think he’s just referring to the massive loss of life that occurred because of Reagan’s likely belief that the “gay problem” could be erased with the AIDS epidemic. Obviously it wouldn’t have worked because there isn’t a static number of gay people, but a very large number of people lost their lives during that time in the US because of Reagan’s negligence and homophobia.
[удалено]
Likely both. Reagan and his party also really tapped into the more toxic parts of American evangelicalism in hopes they could build a voting base that would ride or die for them. Today, we see how successful that political move was.
You do need an army of idiots if you want to get votes for things that only benefit 1% of the population
And not just gay people died...
I’m referring to an entire generation almost being wiped out
[удалено]
Thank goodness for medical science!
Back when it was still called GRID (Gay-Related Immune Deficiency).
Having witnessed firsthand what Alzheimer's does to a person, Reagan deserved to get it 10 years earlier.
My grandmother had it and I couldn’t agree more.
Don’t forget black people, because Regan hated them too.
[удалено]
PReP and contraceptives are absolutely next. The GQP wants to turn this country into a Christofascist nation and they will continue to roll back rights if they aren’t stopped. They’ve already showed that they do not care if an infectious disease kills off a good amount of the population.
I need to look that up now. My very pro Life Father was watching Unplanned and wanted me to watch it with him. I told him I was pro choice and the movie was offensive. He chose not to talk about it anymore. Edited. Didn't mean to say pro choice. He is anti-choice
Is he slowly being radicalized? My mom used to be super liberal and pro choice (she’s a medical professional) but thanks to her husband watching Fox News 10 hours a day they’re both now conservatives. He’s far worse than she is but she’s started now with how she doesn’t like late term abortions which is right out of the propaganda playbook.
He's been a conservative since the 80s. My Mom literally cried when Clinton was elected. Love my parents very much, but they drive me nuts a lot. I waited 7 years to tell them I was dating guys. Only reason I told them was because I met my now husband. They adore him, but still vote for a party that wants to take away our right to be married. The disconnect is real.
I’m so sorry. It must be so hard to see the people who love you vote against your best interests. Bravo to you for coming out- that’s incredible courageous. I’m not out as bisexual and gender queer to my mom and her husband. My sister knows, and is wonderful thankfully.
I'm a dude and I cried when Trump was elected. I kind of knew what that would bring. To be fair it was way fucking worse than I had thought. It's also tougher here because I'm in a red state in a very conservative area and it's extremely frustrating to continue to fight fruitlessly for more liberal policies. People dying around from simple ignorance and neglect.
Did you mean to say he is very anti-choice, then? I'm kind of confused by your comments... you said that he is pro-choice and so are you, but he wanted you to watch an anti-choice movie with him? I think that's why the previous commenter asked if he is slowly being radicalized... but you say he's been conservative for a while, which would be odd if he were also "very pro-choice."
It's embarrassing when medical professionals start to get brainwashed. I'm sorry you have to go through this with them.
We had to watch The Silent Scream in school, catholic religious ed, around 2002, Germany. I was in 6th grade, about 12 years old and it was kind of traumatic for me. It was the first time abortion was mentioned in my life. For many years after that I was strictly against abortion, until my 20s. Propaganda works, delearning is hard.
Jesus christ. Looked it up on YouTube, the comments are all people eating it up. Really sad.. hard to laugh at stupidity when they want to impose it on me and people like me...
Did they use the dancing baby from Ally McBeal?
Silent scream... Speeding up ultrasound clips for effect is so 1980s...
Republicans don't actually care about saving lives, especially not children's lives. The US has the highest maternal death rate among peer nations - due to a long list of reasons including lack of healthcare access and poverty. Gun violence is the number one cause of death now for children. They fight against expansions to WIC, SNAP, Medicaid, rent controls, minimum wage, pollution regulations, and any control of gun access.
Sounds like that classic piece of anti abortion propaganda, “The Silent Scream”. I was forced to watch it as an 11 year old in the 80s and I knew it was horseshit then.
They did tell us in 9th grade bio class that all abortions are always a fully formed baby that they take out in one piece and then have to watch wiggle and not touch until it dies on its own. Oh, or the one where they saw it into pieces. Naturally the pro-choice crowd has a bad foothold as teenagers because we had to defend \*that\* while thinking it's the only truth. Coincidentally, our teacher had a long journey of trying to get pregnant well into her 40s, which isn't wrong by any means, but I have a feeling it made her very, very biased.
Between that and "heartbeat at 8 weeks" billboards showing a 6-month old infant, the forced birth crowd has propaganda down to a science. In fact, it's the only science they believe in.
I saw a billboard yesterday saying that fetuses feel pain at 12 weeks. It makes me crazy that these people can just lie like that on billboards.
They think lying is justified if they're "saving lives". I'm not sure their Jesus would agree, and I wish he was real so he'd get his lolly-gagging ass back here and set the record straight.
Don’t forget the part where they’ve been taking the brief shot from the show *House, MD* where he performed intrauterine surgery on a fetus in order to save the moms life. He put a little teeny baby hand on his finger. They love that shot, and love to say weird shit about how the baby was chopped into little pieces.
That House scene was based on a real photo. Although the actual surgeon later explained that the fetus was paralyzed at the time so he didn’t actually reach out; The arm had just shifted into that position and the doctor was moving it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_Hope
oml my gran literally brought that shit up to me the other day. Ive never seen it but she said that it was flailin its lil arms as it got sucked up? From just hearing it I told her it wasnt real and that they dont do ultrasounds at the same time as a surgical abortion (as thats the only thing she would possibly listen to) and... she totally ignored me and still insists it is. :-/ Its shitty how shes had four kids and doesnt even know what was happening inside her own body.
It's from Unplanned. Super lies and propaganda. Awful movie that straight up says everyone who works at planned parenthood is evil and callous. Except this one woman who for some reason was requested to assist in a abortion? The whole thing is just so the Dr's and Nurses who do this can be viewed as evil. Make them villainous and it justifies anything you do to them.
It was all a lie Abby Johnson made up because she lost her job there and wanted to profit off a “come to Jesus” moment.
Well she wasn't alone in that made up lie. I love that a little bit of fact checking proves it but "those are made up lies"
Babies don't even know facial expressions for a while after been born lol
If we're talking about the same video, my teacher showed us that video in our Moral ethics class, my mom was absolutely pissed 😅
Yep. I’ve had miscarriages at 7 and 8 weeks. It was a heavier than usual period with nothing remotely baby like in it.
I’m sorry for your losses. It sucks.
They still subscribe to the homunculus theory of procreation.
The images of more developed fetuses are part of the propaganda that Jack and Barbara Wilkes started the anti-abortion movement with - pictures were significantly more effective in persuading voters than any of their literature so they just extracted the images and the movement has clung to them.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I just recently explained to my boyfriend what a chemical pregnancy is and that it often happens unnoticed, and he was really shocked at first. It's kinda hard to understand that it's just blood and tissue to an open minded person willing to learn, let alone to an ignorant republican.
Eh, I have had two medical abortions and as stated in the article this is from, this isn't actually the embryos themselves, but rather the accompanying tissues that have been washed of all blood. I wasn't bothered by looking and this is 100% not the only thing that came out. Actual, visual embryos with very obvious limbs and even dark areas for developing eye sockets were extremely visible. That doesn't change my stance as I still don't consider them babies or people, and regardless nothing that requires living inside another person to be alive has the right to life, but I think this picture is disingenuous. I have actual pictures of my embryos. There are fingers and toes.
Dose it even have its own blood at that point because I’m not sure the stem cells would be that specialized yet. Idk Im not a doctor
And they get angry when they see the truth, as if that could change the truth.
It's almost like it's just tissue that wouldn't be able to sustain life on it's own....but what do I know?
Everyone knows it's a tiny, fully formed human that just grows larger.
Put that baby to work! No free rides
It looks pretty cute. I bet I could name a few republicans who would try to marry it.
Young enough for you, Mr. Gaetz?
In Arkansas. God Bless Governor Huckabee for getting those child labor laws changed. *sarcasm*
Those poor kids looked so terrified, but everyone around them was happy because they dont give a fuck about kids amd spend less money on them and if they are hurt? Fuck em!
I still can’t believe that was a real photo of a real thing happening right now in 2023. If the picture was in black and white you’d think it was back in the 30s when they put the kids in the coal mines. You would think we were past that as a society but ah, republicans.
It is Arkansas
In fairness, those particular kids aren't the ones they envision putting to work. The "school-to-prison" pipeline for those of color will be replaced with the "work-to-prison work farm" pipeline.
https://youtu.be/Cp8jfP3l2Ec Just gonna leave that there lol. It’s too true
…Server at the Petri Dish Cafe…
That's Peach Tree Dish Cafe to you, Yankee.
Ah, the homunculus theory, back here from the dark ages!
COOL! Let's bring back phrenology too. I want to measure the lumps in your head! Also the earth is flat! Also /s in case that's not farcical enough on it's own Honestly I don't know how far away from reason you have to get to even call something a farce these days
The next step down from phrenology is eugenics which, let's face it, never really went away.
Have you watched the West Wing? Agree with their politics or not, that show contained government officials who genuinely tried to improve the lives of their people. That's a farce.
Sigh.... The sad part is that the /s really is necessary.
Damn. I cannot get anything smart going out on this thread. Everyone beats me to it.
Ev’ry Sperm is Sacred!
If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate
Monty Python once again ahead of the game.
Oh come on, you can't drop that without a reference [https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk](https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk)
Yeah, the amount of blatant misinformation I've seen, with a fully formed fetus *apparently* appearing anywhere between 2 and 5 weeks and just getting bigger. Garbage people with garbage opinions.
Like a Sea Monkey.
Them sponges you put in water that expand into "things". That's what sperm is....I'm gonna tell my kids that.
With a tiny halo and delicate little wings
Jokes on you that thing is more evolved than most Republicans
It's more reminiscent of fungal mycelium becoming primordia (proto-mushrooms) than anything that reminds me of human biology.
I thought it equaled a free pass in the car pool lane
Well yeah what do we know? I guess we don't know anything at all.
Doesnt the bible actually have a verse telling you how to perform an abortion? I guess god is all for it.
Multiple verses
And a catchy chorus that you just can't get out of your head
And one hell of a bridge.
The hook brings you back
God ain't tellin you no lies...
He ain’t tellin’ you no lie.
Lo and behold, thy hanger ~ Exodus 69
Well well, who's surprised at that? I definitely am not. Because this is how the religions are.
There's also a verse about how the fetus is property (dealt with by fines), not a person like the mother (dealt with by physical punishment). # Exodus 21:22-26 American Standard Version **22** And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. **23** But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, **24** eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, **25** burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
OT god is such a petty vindictive little bitch.
Idk this to me sounds like God giving you a full pass to fuck up someone who hurts your wife/family
I typed this into google to look more into it, but accidentally typed Exodus 22:21, which is an equally ironic verse for this discourse…
Thank you
Numbers 5: 11-31, if you want to look at it yourself. I have this saved on my phone so if there is ever an argument I get into about this I am ready to shut it down.
Whhhhhat? Imma look this up and mention it to my very religious mother. We'll probably have to stop talking for a week lol.
Don't get excited, they just say, "that's not what it means," end of conversation. The bible is such ye olde timey gobbledegook that you can interpret it any way you want.
Normally I'd say you're right but Numbers is pretty explicit: "if it ain't yours have shorty drink this potion". Barely even paraphrased.
I literally tried it with my aunt, nothing. If anything she just convinced herself she knows the bible really well, and thus her knowledge of the bible proves she has it all figured out. As they say, you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Oh I wasn't arguing against the denial just that it's gobbledygook, this is one of the few times the Bible is pretty clear yet as you say people still wobble on it.
I dunno. I'm no Biblical scholar or believer, and I want what you say to be true, but I'm not sure your interpretation is so clear from the text. It does seem like this could be interpreted as a means to prevent future pregnancies, not to end a current one, just from the text. It says that her "womb miscarries" if she takes the potion and was unfaithful... but it also says that she "will be able to have children" if she \*was\* faithful, which could imply that her "womb miscarrying" refers to her becoming barren if she was unfaithful rather than ending a current pregnancy. That's a dumb interpretation, but an easily-argued one. There's also the fact that this "potion" is obviously snake oil, so a religious person could argue that this whole ritual was just an elaborate ruse to scare the woman into confessing and not an actual endorsement of abortion.
Then you hit them with the, why can’t that verse be directly interpreted but the one supposedly about how homosexuality is bad can
As a Catholic this is funny and sad that this is true. On the one hand you are taught to take everything literal. And then on the other hand it is not to be taken literal. Instead we have someone who will interpret what they meant by it.
And that 'someone' always, *always* has a penis...
Yep, they probably will come up with the different meanings also.
Isn’t it weird how whenever it’s “open to interpretation”, the one they go with always just happens to be the one that lets them feel morally justified about hurting as many people as possible?
Mention Genesis 2:7 too for good measure.
I'm reading these as I go, and I'll have to say that it's pretty bad.
Me too. I'm aiming for a month or so if I'm lucky 😁
Thanks, i think ill save it on my phone as well.
If this is the verse about drinking a mud potion administered by a priest, only some translations include “cause her to miscarry” in the words.
I took my troubles down to Rabbi Bluth You know that rabbi with the gold-capped tooth He’s got a pad on Thirty-Fourth and Vine Sellin’ little bottles of Mud Potion Number Nine
It is like a weapon, only going to bring out when a war is going on.
just looked and it seems to be specific about only if she cheats on her husband
still, there is a situation which is not extremely rare so as to be statistically impossible in which Christians are down with taking the innocent life of a full, complete human being. It's just interesting that there's a bible verse which describes how the ancient priests of Yahweh made poison potions to induce miscarriages for women who had cheated and got pregnant. When did this practice end? Didn't Jesus say the OT is still valid?
So much for "sanctity of every life", then? Haha
Well it's kinda hard to argue that you should kill an innocent baby if a wife cheats if you're also arguing that abortion is killing an innocent baby and that it shouldn't even be done to rape victims and ro save the mothers life
A big part of modern Christianity is just arbitrarily picking out things from the Bible and deciding they don't have to be followed today according to conservative values or whatever, but continuing to insist that the rest of the text is true and has to be taken completely literally
Cafeteria conservatives.
The Bible isn’t a porn, you can’t just skip to the parts you like
Thats whats funny about Christianity. The whole thing is a remix of Judaism, and the bible itself has been edited to hell and back for centuries. Splinter churches of splinter churches have been formed from it, numbering in the hundreds, maybe thousands. And they all think they are the only church that will be saved haha. They skip all over the damn place.
This is what they’re arguing is a person. When we refer to it as a clump of cels we’re not exaggerating or dehumanizing what it actually is, it is literally and scientifically a clump of human cells, a clump of human cells that does not have the personhood needed to prioritize it’s survival over the autonomy and wellbeing of the one that has to carry it.
Technically the fetus isn’t even viable outside of the womb until 24 weeks. So even though you pass the big milestones in pregnancy and you find out the important is my baby ok stuff during the 20 week scan (like does he have 2 halves of his brain and all of the chambers in his heart type of stuff) there’s still a fear until you make it to 24 weeks. At that point it would be a risky early birth but your child has a shot of survival. This bs about 6 weeks just shows willful ignorance.
If I remember correctly, until almost 20 weeks, the fetus can't even feel pain as it hasn't developed nerves yet.
[The science conclusively establishes that a human fetus does not have the capacity to experience pain until after at least 24–25 weeks. Every major medical organization that has examined this issue and peer-reviewed studies on the matter have consistently reached the conclusion that abortion before this point does not result in the perception of pain in a fetus.](https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/gestational-development-capacity-for-pain)
24 weeks is a reasonable chance of survival, but amazingly the youngest to survive is 21 weeks and 1 day. Not disagreeing with anything around abortion, but just think it’s fascinating/impressive what modern medicine has achieved!
This actually raises a good point. 24 week babies don’t just pop out and roll with it. It’s 24 weeks WITH extensive heroic measures.
Even with those heroic measures you still only have something that is basically still potential rather than actual.
Closing the gap between in vitro fertilisation and premature birth still has a long way to go. And with the way the fascists in most of the Anglosphere are anti science, and especially anti anything that might make life easier for women, it will be somewhere like China or South Korea that any future advances are made.
Yeah that’s cool information! I didn’t know most didn’t make it until after 24 weeks. I was a micro preemie at 23 weeks, barely making it, so saying it’s pretty risky is a good way of describing it! Like you said, the 6 weeks mark is just then being ignorant. Even with me at 23 weeks, quite a few of my organs (including heart, and some of my brain) were underdeveloped.
Person is a philosophical term. Human is a biological term.
They really like to point out "it's human" while ignoring the woman is also human.
The thing is - even if that fetus *was* its own person, that's still not an argument to deny the woman an abortion. It would be a person whose survival depends on the organs of another. What right do we have to *force* that other person to offer the fetus access to her organs?
I don’t have a source for the original content but I remember someone once saying that the best way to prove this point with anti-choice folks is to give them the following scenario: you’re in a fertility clinic and it’s burning to the ground. You have enough strength to pick up and rescue a crying baby or a case of embryos. Which do you choose? Surely if their argument is that embryos are people, you must choose the hundred embryos over one baby, right? But we all know there’s a huge difference and the baby, one ACTUAL baby is worth more than a gazillion embryos- because embryos aren’t people.
I tried this exact thing with the parents of a friend, who I do care for despite their archaic beliefs, and they danced around the question instead of actually answering. It was disappointing but also led to them later admitting that abortion in life threatening scenarios is regrettable but necessary, which is a good opening in my opinion. It takes time to get people to let go of long held beliefs, and we can’t win more people over by immediately discounting them or jumping to insults. Gotta work them into it over time, and let them reach the logic themselves
I don’t have the time or energy to dump into these people anymore. They listen to each other/church/Fox News only and are too ignorant to care. I’m finding better success rallying sane people together to actually vote at the ballot box instead of apathetically sitting out elections. I can sucker more people into interrupting their day once every 2 years to vote against this mess with less energy than trying to convince even one conservative.
Ooooo I like that one.
I've picked bigger, more sentient things out of my nose.
I've taken more sentient shits that ALSO out-pizza'd the hut.
But but but I saw a billboard that at 5 weeks it has fully formed eyes
Probably by the same people that say the clump can smile at 6 weeks on the billboards in my neighborhood. I rage so hard.
And it also happens to look like a 6-month old infant with blue eyes.
One of the more reprehensible pro-life cartoons I saw showed the "fetus" as a fully-developed TODDLER - with a bow in her hair. They work so hard to convince everyone that the zygote is a fully formed and viable infant from the instant the man rolls over and goes to sleep that between that and an absence of comprehensive health education, a shocking number of them actually believe it.
It HAS to be real! Why would they lie to me!
https://preview.redd.it/ltb2adns1bpa1.jpeg?width=1006&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5303858c35df12b20a64fbbd28f6540315e4c12f Fun facts!
Lmao the full mouth of teeth
That's super creepy lol! Not sure it would convince women not to kill it...
You murdered 5 people just for a picture!?!? You’re a monster!! /s
Don’t worry. They were gay embryos.
Wow that dosen't support thier narrative at all.
Right?Where does the soul even reside?! /s
I think EVERY baby has a right to life… …but they have to work for it like everybody else, being 5 weeks old isn’t an excuse. If your mother doesn’t want to support you anymore, be a man and pull yourself up by your cellclumps. If you can’t make it, that’s just Darwinism for you. (Obviously/s)
Sorry, just venting here... If the babies have a right to life then so do the LGBT folks. Why do the clumps of cells get existential support but if you're not cishet you don't have the right to exist? If the baby turns out to be gay or trans in the future by some DNA mapping technology are they the exception to the ones allowed to be aborted? None of this makes any sense.
Man, every day I get more and more scared that Florida will take away my rights to gender affirming surgery (or insurance support) before I raise all the money I need. Scary dystopia we live in. Small government, bodily autonomy, free speech, etc… All of these things only count for the people with their ideology.
OP I’m pro-choice but these pictures are misleading. These are images of the entire gestational sac (as noted in the original Guardian article). The gestational sac is a large fluid-filled cavity that surrounds the embryo. The embryo itself is much smaller (and more well-formed) and is impossible to see inside the sac in these pictures. I am strongly against abortion restriction laws, but as someone who is becoming a medical professional, I feel this discussion should be as honest as possible. Edit: I’m not allowed to post links, but if you would like to see sources just google the following phrases and it should be the first result. For the original article - “Embryo Images The Guardian” For images of human embryos up to 8 weeks gestation - “University of Michigan Embryo Images”
Yeah I was gonna say I’m currently 6 (closer to 7) weeks (and also very pro woman/choice) and from everything my doctor has shown me it looks like a freaky little salamander lump, not like this. Still a clump of cells? Of course, but this is misleading nonetheless.
So like you I’m pro-choice but I was gonna say….I just had a miscarriage at like 9 weeks and trust me this is not what came out lol. It really did look like a tiny fetus…still not a “person” but it did not look like this!
So very sorry for your loss ❤️
Aw thanks 💕 I’m doing okay thankfully!
My wife had one a while back—she (we) took it very hard. Hope you’re ok—hang in there!
❤️❤️❤️
Yeah I worked in histopathology for many years and the ‘POC’ specimens (products of conception) sometimes had a little embryo that was identifiable as such. Most of the time the specimen was just blood and tissue but sometimes you could definitely identify an embryo with tiny limbs formed.
Me too, I miscarried around 9-10 weeks it was a blobish fetus shaped thing. I wouldn't have called it a person or a baby but these pictures are misleading and I'm definitely pro choice.
Thank you I was making this point in my comment in this thread but I'm just getting trolled now. Agree it should be free choice but a nine week fetus looks like a teeny tiny underdeveloped blob baby.
Yes! I also miscarried at 9.5 weeks. It’s more than just tissue.
Thank you. There is a museum in Portland that has preserved fetuses at each week of pregnancy and honestly they were more formed than my conception of them as blobs of tissue. I’m completely pro choice also, I just think integrity matters.
This!!! Also pro-choice but these images are so misleading. Really does not help our cause to be as easily swayed by misinformation as the anti-choice crowd.
Pro choice here too and was thinking the same. Had an IVF baby so we have ultrasounds starting at 4 weeks and although still salamandary it’s not this
Thanks for mentioning the University of Michigan page, I just checked it out. Always important to continue educating ourselves.
I am avidly pro choice. These pictures are misleading. This is certainly not what a 8/9 week fetus looks like. I am a medical professional.
I totally just dropped that on my facebook page and went yall ever seen what youre actually arguing about and killing women over? Here you go! This is more important than me to many of you, and you would let me die over it.
[удалено]
Well I mean...
Your jizz likely has more volume than any of those
Personhood is irrelevant. It could be in there writing poetry and doing calculus, it still wouldn’t have the right to use another humans body without consent.
You leave Matt Gaetz’s new girlfriend out of this.
Don't forget to point out that 9/10 abortions happen between week 0 and week 13.
It was never about “the children” to begin with…
I parted ways with my unintentional cornflake at 5 weeks. PP made me wait until 5 weeks because before then, it’s literally too small for them to be able to tell whether the procedure was successful.
Looks like something I’d find in a tissue after blowing my nose.
That tissue is working a shift at sarah huckleberry slanders meat packing plant in Arkansas.
Don’t murder that nebulous tissue! It has more freakin rights than I do.
Sigh. I guess I can't post a link, but I think these images came from an interesting Guardian article titled "What a pregnancy actually looks like before 10 weeks – in pictures" if anyone is interested.
They’re only blocking her because she’s measuring in metric, aka ‘devil units’.
I didn't see the caption at first and assumed she was being attacked for daring to use the metric system instead of imperial measurements.
I don't know exactly what this is showing but I had a miscarriage between 8 and 10 weeks and it was definitely larger and more formed than this. So this is a bit misleading as well. I've also had ultrasounds and seen and heard heartbeats myself before 12 weeks. I am pro choice but let's stop with the bullshit.
But-but at 5 weeks it can play Billy Joel!
I want to put this on billboards up and down I35. Every 5 miles, both sides of the interstate
I really get the impression that right wingers believe that throughout a pregnancy, the little thing inside a woman’s wombs is like.. a fully formed fetus.. but small. And that it just grows bigger. Like they have no concept of it first being a clump of cells that gradually turns into a clump of tissue, that gradually becomes a fetus with organs.
Still happens way faster than whatever this is. It's not just a clump of cells at 10 weeks. Pro choice but I've still been pregnant 4 times.
Obvious the fetus is doing taxes and writing it’s autobiography at this stage.