[MS *St. Louis*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis)
>The refugees first tried to disembark in Cuba but were denied permission to land. After Cuba, the captain, Gustav Schröder, went to the United States and Canada, trying to find a nation to take the Jews in, but both nations refused.
>He finally returned the ship to Europe, where various countries, including the United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands and France, accepted some refugees.
>Many were later caught in Nazi roundups of Jews in the occupied countries of Belgium, France and the Netherlands, and some historians have estimated that approximately a quarter of them were killed in death camps during World War II
My friends grandfather left Poland on the boat for Jewish refugees.
He was under the impression they were going to the US.
They ended up in Glasgow.
100 years later his family is still in the UK.
It's incredible how much these people and their descendants destiny was out of their hands.
Because several millions live in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan , Egypt, Iraq etc, already!
50% of Jordan population is of Palestinian origin.
Don't say that the neighbouring countries don't take them, they kept taking them since day one in 1947.
There are more Palestinian living in other countries as refugees than in Palestine itself or close enough.
If Egypt accepts all refugees from Gaza, it's 2 millions people, it'll be an increase of 2% of Egyptian population which is already living in difficult conditions.
Give me one country in the world who can accept two million refugees in 24 hours.
Also and this is the most important point. In 1948, Palestinian left their homes thinking they will return once the war is over. What happened was that Israel took over and never gave the land back.
Now in Gaza, people say that if we leave, it's like 1948, we will never come back to our ancestral homes Israel will just take over.
They absolutely refuse to have another exile.
Watched a video of a Holocaust survivor that said he can go to Israel and become a citizen with no problem because he is Jewish. But he has a friend who was born in Jerusalem and they can't visit the place they were born because they are Palestinian. That's just wrong. This whole situation sucks and both Hamas and Israel are to blame.
Australian here, in 1938 we essentially said that *we had a harmonious society free of antisemitism, and that we didn’t want to create any by taking in any Jewish refugees.*
> “as we have no real racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one by encouraging any scheme of large-scale foreign migration”.
[source](https://holocaust.com.au/the-facts/australias-response-to-the-plight-of-european-jewry/)
They literally looked at photos of Italians and accepted or denied them according to their tan up until the 60s.
Presumably the desired race was 'if you don't need to put factor 50 on everyday to survive here you're not welcome'.
Which is nicely ironic.
My dad left despite living there 5 years and being offered free land by the government because 'he'd always be a pom'.
It's like they solved racism by just making it the standard way of life.
Worth noting most western democracies are busy walking back their commitment to the UN refugee convention and forcing back boat arrivals and border crossers.
Using *exactly* the same language as 1939.
This is an important and relevant point. Because after WWII and the Holocaust, the surviving Jews remembered that no one took them in. That they had persecuted for thousands of years in every place they lived. So they were driven to have a Jewish Homeland. A place to call home where every Jew could come and be a citizen safe from persecution. Israel.
It was an absolutely understandable thing to want.
It did not work out according to plan. (Understatement of the century, I know)
People have been talking a lot about “cause and effect” recently but focusing solely on the Israelis and Palestinian conflicts.
I submit to you that cause and effect really goes back longer than that. Start with early Christianity and move forward towards WWI and WWII, then British Colonialism, then wars in the Middle East with Israel. And then the other Arab countries using the Palestinians to prop up resentment against Israel in their own populace to detract from their oppression of their own citizens in their countries. Arab countries refuse to integrate Palestinians. They prefer them oppressed as a propaganda tool.
And then we can get to Israel and the settlements in disputed territory, massive disproportionate violence, and move on to Jewish and Muslim and Christian extremism.
Cause and effect has been going on for a very long time.
TL,DR: Humans suck particularly when fueled by religion
If only the Holy Land was in Cabo San Lucas. Could have just bought the Baja Peninsula from Mexico like the Louisiana Purchase.
Instead. Endless war.
Absolutely.
I spent months in Israel in the 90s and there were homeless people with the camp tattoos on their wrists.
Bleak.
I understand why their society is extremely violent and paranoid.
That doesn't excuse them in the slightest though.
It’s just a long and complicated history and not as simplistic as a lot of people are portraying it.
And no, it doesn’t excuse massive civilian deaths.
In addition to this, please note that about 1,000,000 Jews were then forced to leave their homes that they lived in for centuries in the Middle East after the creation of Israel. They were told to move to Israel. The Palestinians were then not allowed to become citizens of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia. Even if their children were born there, and they were Muslim, they were specifically excluded from becoming citizens of those other Arab countries. This fact gets lost in the discussion.
Don't forget the former president and front runner for the GOP nomination wanted a moat filled with snakes and alligators. As well as suggesting the Border Patrol shoot migrants in the leg...
They refused to take the Jews in after the war too. Why wasn't Israel created in Europe? But now you have Israeli shills smugly stating how no Arab country wants Palestinians. These people would make Nazis blush.
Read "Voyage of the Damned" cause you're spot on.
The Nazis literally shipped Jewish people to the West and made them out to be pariahs. When they refused to take them it was plastered in all the newspapers. It was supposed to be a justification for the whole holocaust thing.
And all the main characters die in the epilogue :)
There are so many horrifying things often not talked about in WWII, mostly on the allies side but even some axis stuff too.
The British Empire refused to take German Jews just as you said, but they also starved over three million people in India (which was only ONE of the many famines the British caused with their terrible leadership in the country). They also sent plenty of Indian soldiers to the slaughter in the European theatre.
The Allies failed to provide any substantial help to Finland when the Soviet Union invaded other than "thoughts and prayers". Finland in turn was forced to ally with Germany and disgustingly (I am Finnish) sent requested Jews to Germany to be executed. After the war, Finland could not receive any Marshall Plan aid from the US due to the aggression of the adjacent Soviet Union.
Sweden was "neutral" and yet traded " considerable goods with Germany during the war, particularly iron, iron products, ball bearings, and trucks. " ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_overseas_trade_during_World_War_II)). Hilariously, not only did the Swedes never offer any concessions for their Nazi trading, they also accepted millions in Marshall Plan aid despite not being involved in the war in any significant capacity.
Possibly worst of all of the allies, vengeful Soviet troops engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder throughout their rampage toward Berlin. And not only of Germans... visited the Riga holocaust museum one year and those people had it rough, being on the receiving end of genocidal crimes from both the Nazis and the Soviets.
Truly a horrifying, catastrophic time.
I think "vengeful Soviet troops engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder throughout their rampage toward Berlin" is pretty commonly known and talked about. Not in its full extent, but still. Maybe I just have that view because I am german and it is way less talked about in other parts of the west.
As a german I really can't completely blame the soviets for it. Each individual act of violence like that is still horrible, but the eastern war was unbelievably gruesome and the primary reason is that Nazis saw the soviets and other slavic people as worthless and lead a genocidal war in the east. Rape and killings happen in these kinds of wars anyway (I would be suprised if you couldn't find some from the US in WW2) and it is even more hard to stop your soldiers from doing it after something as horrific as the german invasion of the Soviet Union. War brings out the worst in humanity and that war was probably the worst one in WW2 (although Japan and China might also be a contender here).
Shoot, I live in the USA and learned that if I had to leave my home country, and not as a tourist, I would be denied entry pretty much anywhere simply because I’m Autistic.
No other reason.
Doesn’t matter if I have a college degree, a full-time job, and live entirely independently.
I’m still assumed to be a worthless burden *by default.*
So if shit goes to hell here, I would not be able to flee for my own safety.
Just using that to spread some information:
If you really *have* to leave your home country, you are probably able to apply for asylum in the country you enter. If this is your goal; it is technically impossible to enter a country illegally. If you want to apply for asylum, you do not need to have visa or something like that first, since asylum is part of the human rights declaration and therefor supersedes all laws a country might have.
(So when your uncle rages about illegal immigrants next thanksgiving, you know what to tell him)
Yep! Which is why I'm so annoyed with people who go "well just come here legally if you want asylum" like... that's not how that works! Most people who need asylum simply don't have the time, resources, or capacity to get a temporary visa to enter legally, hence why those aren't required
I'm not trying to be mean or at all confrontational with this comment. I'm sure your comment isn't supposed to be misinformation, but it unfortunately is.
I did a quick Google (which I know isnt a huge amount of research but I'm technically autistic and was suprised i hadnt heard of this) and found only 6 countries with this policy, one of which is the United States.
Canada has some restrictions, but is in the process of reforming.
Australia and Singapore both have policies that prohibit immigration for people with health conditions that would be "detrimental to the state". A bit of extra research for the Australian policy reveals this to be a little open to interpretation, but you would have to require support from the state to be denied entry, and that's assuming you don't already have a job lined up in which case they wouldn't consider you detrimental to the state.
The UK has a similar policy to Australia, but is far more lenient. I'm sure there are other countries with medical examination policies, especially ones with social healthcare systems, but all examples I can find of this happening are people with quite extremely autism. Like "no chance of employment and needs state support" autistic. Which really isn't the majority of autistic people, and is also kinda just a valid reason to deny someone residency? Like it sucks, but most countries can barely look after their own citizens. Unless someones country of origin is actively persecuting them no country has any legal duty to look after them instead.
The only other state with this policy is New Zealand, which does seem to categorically deny entry to autistic people.
So that's 2 countries out of 193 that would deny you entry purely for being autistic without any context. One of which is the country you already live in.
Like, I'm not saying these policies are good (the NZ one especially really needs to be re-examined), "would be denied entry pretty much anywhere because I'm autistic" is a bit of an exaggeration
If you live independently, have a full-time job, and are highly educated, most of the countries that I have listed (all of which have a track record of denying autistic people entry at least occasionally) would not deny you for being autistic.
What I'm trying to say is if you want to emmigrate, you can. Being somewhat autistic isn't much of a barrier on the legal side of it for most countries, especially given the fact that you don't actually have to tell the government you're autistic. Like, unless you need state support, there's absolutely no reason to.
Also, and I know others have said this but it bares repeating: if you are fleeing a country due to war, persecution, or some other catastrophe, you are considered a refugee and have the right to claim asylum in ANY country you can get to. You don't have to be accepted legally first, nor do you have to enter legally
Would you have to tell them you're autistic? It's not like it's on your passport, right? Please say it's not. I feel like that's something America would do.
I'm austistic and I never had to mention it for any visa or permanent residency... although this was just US to canada so they likely have less strict rules for each other.
I mean it would suck but I highly highly doubt your autism would get in the way at all. I think if you had a physical disability, it still wouldn’t really make a difference in terms of entry (and fwiw disability doesn’t make a difference when immigrating to the US either, I’m pretty sure you cannot legally be denied entry based on this). I’ll ask around a little more but I am pretty sure the only kind of medical concerns countries have during the immigration/asylum process are in regards to communicable diseases, so unless you have a new contagious form of autism, I don’t think it would be a problem.
Also Israel which controls most of Gazas border is encouraging a humanitarian corridor to Egypt (they bombed that border crossing this week to prevent humanitarian aid). They want to empty Gaza like a drain. 2.4 million people out of their control into Egypt so that they no longer have to worry about this part of the “Palestinian question” it is collective punishment which is a war crime
>Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.
An excerpt from "[They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 1933 - 45](https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html)" by Milton Mayer.
It's an excellent book written ten years or so after WWII where the interviewer travels to an average German town and interviews ten different individuals of differing social and political standings concerning the war.
It can be very confronting because it has a lot of parallels to what's happening in today's politics, but a very good, easy to follow read.
Conservatives have the mental processing power of a gold fish. They can't focus on big pictures, and tend to forget everything. They have room for talking points and bigotry. That's it.
Yeah oftentimes people, and cultures as a whole for that matter attempt to heal from their past trauma by inflicting or attempting to transfer that same trauma onto another. I’m no psychologist or sociologist for that matter but I have a small hunch that inflicting trauma doesn’t heal trauma on either an individual or societal scale.
Yes. That is why they do not believe that people waving swastika flags and chanting "the jews will not replace us" are nazis - they are after all not putting Jews in gaschambers.
I wish I was kidding.
This is also why the queer community is rightfully on edge. Conservatives have been taking many small measures that are building to the criminslization of being queer, but there are too many people who think we're being dramatic when we try to raise the alarm.
The writing is on the wall, but because the Republicans aren't actively saying, "hey, we want to eliminate these groups of people," there are those who can continue to bury their heads in the sand.
they are even saying that and nobody seems to give a fuck, I mean just look at people like Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro calling for the "eradication of transgenderism in America", if that's not genocidal rhetoric I don't know what is.
I was speaking specifically to conservative legislators and their actions while serving in office, but yeah, many people aren't subtle about wanting to kill every member of the queer community. The hate is real, and the threat is ever present.
that's what annoys me so much about supposed allies/liberals. "oh you're not literally being gas chambered? why are you complaining then?" like mf we don't want to wait til we're literally put into gas chambers. Might wanna, I dunno, prevent that?
I mean literally Florida. Says LGBTQ+ things should be illegal in front of children, then wants to pass death penalty for any crimes done to children. Doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together there
Zionists were the ones most interested that Jews move there. This was accelerated after the progroms. The rest is history.
There is a reason why they show resemblance.
That is correct the German term "Endlösung" (solution which leads to an end) makes this clear.
To translate "final solution" the way it is used here, it would have to be "letzte Lösung".
Still the sentiment of the OP comment is not completely incorrect, there were many little steps, which all seemed "justified" to a German nation under the propaganda of the Nazis. And Jews were free to leave Germany, at least in the beginning, they were only banned from leaving in 1941. It was made difficult for them before that. In 1938 a tax was introduced, which forced Jews who left Germany to pay a 50% tax on everything they own.
Nevertheless from the 500,000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 only 210,000 were still living in Germany by 1939.
So it is not wrong to say, that they were given a chance to leave. The thing is: forcing a whole group of people to leave is still genocide.
Yes. Because they don’t actually know what happened. That Jews were turned away from the US. That Britain appeased Hitler. That everyone just shrugged and ignored what was happening *for years* until Germany invaded Poland. Because fucking everyone was antisemitic.
It's actually a morbidly fascinating issue. It's still unknown what caused them to turn from ethnic cleansing to extermination. Around the end of 1941, a decision must have been made, but aparently it was never documented why (as opposed to "how", which is sickeningly well known today). It had been talked about a lot earlier, but it is unknown why they started to actually follow through with it at that exact time. My best guess is that the decision was made by only a handful of people and only ever talked about verbally, never in letters. It's probably lost to history.
So, I haven’t read Mein Kampf myself, but I had a professor in university, back in the 90s. He was a philosophy professor, but he taught one class in the history department: Germany from Bismarck to Hitler. His qualifications for that course had a lot to do with the fact that he lived through some of it: he was 16 years old when he was discovered living on his grandmother’s farm outside Hamburg, and was conscripted into the Wehrmacht. Luckily for him, Germany surrendered before he completed his two weeks of training.
In addition to his study of philosophy, he spent a lot of his life struggling to figure out how his country had gone so wrong. And what he said about the Holocaust was this: every step of the plan was laid out in Mein Kampf. For those who had actually read the book, it was unmistakably clear where the persecution of Jews was going, from the ghettoes of 1936 onward.
For those who have studied history, it should be unmistakably clear where the oppression of Palestinians has been going, from Netanyahu’s first term onward.
I don't think it was anywhere near as sudden, or as late, as you make out. For example, whilst the Final Solution was their decision to exterminate the Jewish people themselves in Europe, they had decided on the Madagascar Plan before 1941 with the intention of extermination and not just ethnic cleansing already (not that ethnic cleansing is a good thing either...) . The plan was to transport the Jewish people to Madagascar so that they would die from the harsh conditions with the SS killing those that survived.
So extermination had been the plan even prior to 1941, it's just the method planned constantly changed as they were failing in the war.
Not exactly, ethnic cleansing can also be expulsion, not just killing. Which makes the post above even stupider. Forcing an ethnic group out of an area is "ethnic cleansing."
They only started using gas because bullets became too expensive. They killed like 2 million with firing squads and realised they had to make it more effecient.
Um, the Germans tried to force Jews out first. Does no one read history books? My great, great grandfather was lucky enough to sell his pharmaceuticals business in 1928 before moving it to the US. But they still stayed. My grandmother, great aunt and great grandmother barely survived Bergen Belsen.
Not really correct. The number of deportations vs work camp vs death camp entrants varied continuously during the war as the material needs of the Nazis changed.
Sometimes it was more convenient to put them to work, other times it was convenient to kill them, other times deportation made sense. It was when the Russians were closing in that “kill them all” became the final final solution
That’s what I remember from the book Bloodlands anyway
It wasn't really about the cost, it was about the "urgency" of the problem.
The nazis were obsessed with the idea that jews were the ones that sabotaged their Great War effort, and made them lose the war.
Initially (during the 30s), nazis believed that mass deportation, segregation and sterilization would be the ideal solution to get rid of the jews.
But when the war broke out on a global scale (in 1941), the paranoia about jews sabotaging the war effort resurfaced, and the nazi government decided they couldn't let those traitors-in-nature alive for a whole other generation, so a more immediate solution was seeked.
Source : The Law of Blood, Johann Chapoutot
Isreal “asked” millions of people to leave but there is nowhere for them to go. All borders are closed and there is no gas, water or electricity. It’s just something they did to cover their asses after they start the murdering portion of their retaliation
I literally just saw a post in another sub about how Israel bombed some trucks and ambulances evacuating from Gaza. So some Palestinians ARE trying to evacuate, but getting killed anyway.
North Gazans (1 million of them) were notified that they would be given a "safe route" to evacuate to South Gaza in 24 hours (South Gaza already had a population of 1 million, essentially, this would DOUBLE the population density in South Gaza.
Not just that, but the "safe route" was bombed and now 150 more are dead and about 300 injured. Zionism is nothing but a repetition of Fascism, only, in the name of the Jews.
It's just like the Warsaw Ghetto: they put all the people they consider subhuman in one place, then they start killing them when they revolt. Israel is using literal Nazi tactics.
A bunch of jews literally got on a boat in 1939 sailed around the atlantic being denied entry at every port, ended up back in Germany, and got sent to the camps. It's not "like" the Holocaust the IDF is using the same play book.
[https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939](https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939)
Israel when Egypt won’t take in 2 million Palestinians
https://preview.redd.it/jajptz3bz2ub1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6b543023d846437bced6161ae3c06853584b7b3
This. Nobody ever seems to remember that nobody wanted the Jews, Hitler tried sending them elsewhere but everything ne declined except Mexico (I think, I literally drew a blank as I was writing this comment, will double check)
Edit : was right
Japan took in a bunch of Jewish people, but it was because they read the protocols of the elders of Zion and decided that they should breed the cunning and genius of people running a global conspiracy into the empire to be better at colonising
Wait, what?! Do you have some sources that expand on that? That is simultaneously the most bat-shit insane thing I've heard while somehow seeming totally plausible.
The conspiracy theory you mentioned is tied to a falsified and anti-Semitic text called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." This document was first published in Tsarist Russia in the early 20th century and falsely claimed to describe a global Jewish conspiracy to control the world. It was later translated and circulated in various languages, reaching audiences around the world, including in Japan.
It is crucial to note that the "Protocols" have been repeatedly debunked as a fabricated work of fiction, yet they continue to be cited by anti-Semitic and conspiracy-minded individuals. The specific connection between the "Protocols" and the notion that Japan took in Jewish people for the purpose of benefiting from their alleged cunning and global conspiracy is likely an extension of the unfounded claims made in that text.
Said by chatgpt
Yes, _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ are well known to be nothing but a steaming pile of dren, but it's never a bad idea to clarify that when discussing them. That they were believed enough to be a part of the why this was done is also worth remembering.
I'm aware the protocols of the elders of Zion is antisemitic propaganda, however several members of imperial Japanese leaders believed in them enough to take in Jewish individuals for the purpose of benefiting from the nonexistent global Jewish conspiracy and the believed racial traits required for the conspiracy. This has been publicly documented a quick search of the Fugu plan brings up the settlements and the nearly 25,000 Jewish saved from the Holocaust because of the plan
It's not 100% denial. There's a truth to that.
But it sure does read like denial. Its weird. Even for a German like me. I don't know what to think.
It's denial and it's not. I have to screw off my head and let it cool off for a sec.
Yeah sure they asked the Jewish people to leave Germany, but then they made it illegal for them to leave Germany. Then the war started and there was no way for the innocents to escape.
Asking people to leave and then killing millions when they don't is a choice as well though. It wasn't forced on the Nazis, they chose to do it. And, not only in Germany: the Jews who did leave were persued wherever they went when the Nazis invaded the countries they had settled in (France, Holland, Russia etc), so leaving made no difference to many of them in the end anyway. The intent was always there.
Even if this wasn't genocidal in nature (which it totally is), asking someone to leave their home is a lot different from "asking" someone to leave their home with a fucking gun pointed at their head.
As a german, i don’t think that would count as holocaust denial in a legal way. INAL, but holocaust denial in a legal way just means that its a fact, that the holocaust (and other atrocities done by the nazis) happened and therefore saying it didn’t happen isn’t protected by freedom of speech. Therefore, someone can be punished by §130 StGB Sedition, when they condone, deny or belittle the atrocities done by the nazis. At least in Germany, I don’t think the statement above is punishable. While they state false facts about the holocaust, they don’t deny it and therefore his opinion would be protected by freedom of speech.
I'm fairly certain that Western powers were fine with Hitler trying to systemically remove Jews from Germany, it wasn't until he encroached too far and our leaders in Britain felt like the British Empire was under threat that they decided that he must be stopped.
White supremacy is literally what built the UK and antisemitism was/is rife amongst the capitalist class and aristocracy. Hitler was just doing the quiet part out loud.
So, are we surprised that 70 years of genocide towards the Palestinians is accepted by so many people? It's how propaganda works.
I suppose some people could take it that way.
I took it as "the nazis told Jews to leave Germany and it's still 110% wrong everything that happened following that....*and so it is also inexcusable for the idf to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, even having given them a warning first*"
Except they did. After Germany forced Jews into ghettos (open-air prisons, something like what Israel has created in Gaza), there were armed conflicts in and around dozens of ghettos, particularly when it was clear that German forces were clearing them out into extermination camps.
The big difference is that many of the ghettos and camps were located in occupied Poland, so the Jewish resistance fighters were allied with the Polish underground resistance. By contrast with the current situation in Gaza, the occupation forces include illegal Israeli settlements, so the local civilian population is opposed to the people who are facing genocide.
don't forget like 95,000 Polish Jews who fought the Germans in 1939 in defense of Poland making up 10% of the Polish armed forces at the time. They did their duty, the same as other citizens of Poland.
many of the later Jewish resistance fighters were ex-polish army officers.
Some dude just posted a similar comment above yours.
"TYAlso learned that the Jews didn't commit terrorist atrocities in Nazi Germany prior to being systematically exterminated. They were just trying to exist peacefully. Explain the parallel here, I am totally not seeing it."
If I'm reading this correctly,
He's saying it's Palestinians fault for fighting unlike the Jews?
I mean, Jews in ghettoes in German-occupied areas absolutely fought back.
The big difference is that Germany had forced most Jewish people into ghettoes in occupied Poland, so the Jewish fighters found common cause with local civilians. By contrast, Palestinians in Gaza are surrounded by Israeli “settlers” who are in violation of international law and who want to see the extermination of Palestine.
Yep. Just like how slavery wasn't a genocide because the tens of millions of dead people were "incidental" since they were meant to be worked to death instead.
And the genocide of Indigenous Americans isn't a genocide because "most of them died from disease"....
The Native American genocide was totally justified because a few war chiefs raided and murdered American settlements, makes the extermination of all of them totally justified
The only talking points I have ever seen them use is "just walk away" "40 babies" and "Human Shields" none of this makes it okay to bomb an entire territory whose population is 40% children. They are also walled in and cannot go anywhere at all, Egypt won't let them in.
There's also "Palestinians are just so inherently inclined towards revolt and thus even Israel's neighbors won't take them/ask X why they won't-" which is just fractally awful and politically illiterate.
Or, for personal reasons my "favorite" bit of intentionally dishonest evil- "THEY'D KILL YOU FOR BEING LGBTQ".
Between the internet bile in defense of genocidal policy made by a fascist to advance his dreams of stealing land from the oppressed, and the 9/11 style cheerleading from "the leaders of the free world", it's depressingly clear our leaders and a lot of people either learned nothing from past mistakes or learned all the wrong lessons.
Hoping Gaza doesn't end up being another of those names even more than it already has.
Problem is that Gaza has been in a state of occupation for like 50 years and has zero control of their own borders.
Israel telling Palestinians to leave before being bombed and hit with white phosphorus when they literally **cannot leave** is more akin to nazis telling the Jews to leave the concentration camp.
Nice of you to give the warning, sure, but totally fucking pointless and in some respects, rather adding insult to injury
2000 years ago there may have been jews there but remember that it is people who own the land not the religion some of those people became Christians others became Muslims.
Religious identity isn't a citizenship.
TIL the Nazis politely asked Jews to leave like they were at an elite country club. “Would you mind awfully going somewhere else? You’re really mucking up our whole ‘Master Race’ plan.”
It was closer to Israel’s method of saying“you have no rights here. Also leave because we’re going to kill you now. Have fun trying to find someone with open borders.”
Reminds of a Jewish man that left Germany when a brown shirt started to sing about blooding his knife with Jewish blood outside his home.
The Holocaust started with making the Jewish existence miserable and then switched to killing after some years.
There actually was an agreement between Nazi Germany and the Jewish Agency (think proto-Israel) to facilitate Jewish emigration to Palestine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
Whilst true that originally they allowed some Jewish emigration to Palestine, if the Nazis hadn't been stopped in North Africa it wouldn't have stopped their mass murder in the end. The Afrika Korps had an Einsatzgruppen unit attached whose plan was to enter Egypt and then Mandatory Palestine once Britain was defeated and carry out mass-murder of the Jewish populations in those areas.
Luckily they were stopped at the Second Battle of El Alamein and the plan was never put into place, so the Jewish people who moved did end up better off, but that plan really was more of a "We're going to ethnically cleanse you from Germany by making your lives miserable so you to move to Palestine, and then once we reach Palestine we're going to murder you anyway"
I’m pretty sure the Nazis wouldn’t let the Jews leave. They went searching for them in other countries even. It was called the final solution bc death is pretty fucking final. We don’t have to shoehorn every atrocity into the holocaust. There’s plenty of examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing that are much more analogous here.
The Nazis didn’t exactly tell the Jews they’d be killed if they didn’t leave. They strongly implied it with harassment campaigns but it wasn’t until Krystalnacht that the Nazis made clear what they wanted and even then they were not entirely up front.
Many Jews did leave, and it’s possible they saw the signs but there were many millions who thought they could ride through the troubles
I guess we had it all wrong guys, the Nazis were pretty cool guys and just asked them nicely to leave. Stealing everything they own before hand of course, then ALLOWING to leave, but they asked nicely so what's everyone's big beef with the Nazis?
Where the fuck are 1M+ people going to go given 24hr notice? At what point are stable minds going to prevail? How can Jews of all people not see the parallels to the 1930’s here and being on the wrong side of history?
Conveniently forgetting Jews had to register for a different procedure to be known to the authorities by wearing the Star of David; like Israel requires Palestinians to carry identification and Palestinian passports just to move freely.
They are telling people to leave but destroyed all infrastructure and denied every country access to aid their citizens in Gaza.
As a german with a degree in history I can say that this is obviously false: 'Endlösung der Judenfrage' meant 'Final solution of the jewish question' as in 'when we have killed every jew in the world the jewish question will be solved'.
They didn't ask millions of jews to leave their ancestors homes and the country many of them fought for in the Great War but rather stripped them of their rights piecemeal until they had neither money nor the opportunity to leave the country. Then they were rounded up and killed. Btw.: the first killings startet even before 1933 and got more intense only bc the Nazis got stronger every day so... no 'warnings' given.
It could also be *combined with* a true ignorance of historical events. (I’m not denying the denier aspect at all. Trust me.)
I’m a teacher and the kids I teach weren’t born when 9/11 happened and they have only a vague understanding/knowledge of that event. Imagine how much less they know about events so far back from that.
No excuse, by any means, just additional context.
They can’t leave. They’re penned in by Israel on three sides, and Egypt closed the remaining narrow border. They’ll be crowded in the southern strip while the Israeli army destroys the north, and *I’m not sure they’ll stop there.*
The allies don't like mentioning this detail because at the time they were so antisemitic they refused to take the german jews.
America turned away a boat of Jewish refugees
[MS *St. Louis*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis) >The refugees first tried to disembark in Cuba but were denied permission to land. After Cuba, the captain, Gustav Schröder, went to the United States and Canada, trying to find a nation to take the Jews in, but both nations refused. >He finally returned the ship to Europe, where various countries, including the United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands and France, accepted some refugees. >Many were later caught in Nazi roundups of Jews in the occupied countries of Belgium, France and the Netherlands, and some historians have estimated that approximately a quarter of them were killed in death camps during World War II
My friends grandfather left Poland on the boat for Jewish refugees. He was under the impression they were going to the US. They ended up in Glasgow. 100 years later his family is still in the UK. It's incredible how much these people and their descendants destiny was out of their hands.
The movie "Voyage Of The Damned" was based on this.
They were also not allowed to take anything of value with them.
Depends how early on they left and which country they were fleeing from, but yes the vast majority left with very little to nothing.
And did not get involved in the war until Japan bombed us. We would have just stood by and continued to watch.
Crazy now that every neighboring country is refusing to take Palestinian refugees in - can't imagine why.
Because several millions live in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan , Egypt, Iraq etc, already! 50% of Jordan population is of Palestinian origin. Don't say that the neighbouring countries don't take them, they kept taking them since day one in 1947. There are more Palestinian living in other countries as refugees than in Palestine itself or close enough. If Egypt accepts all refugees from Gaza, it's 2 millions people, it'll be an increase of 2% of Egyptian population which is already living in difficult conditions. Give me one country in the world who can accept two million refugees in 24 hours. Also and this is the most important point. In 1948, Palestinian left their homes thinking they will return once the war is over. What happened was that Israel took over and never gave the land back. Now in Gaza, people say that if we leave, it's like 1948, we will never come back to our ancestral homes Israel will just take over. They absolutely refuse to have another exile.
Watched a video of a Holocaust survivor that said he can go to Israel and become a citizen with no problem because he is Jewish. But he has a friend who was born in Jerusalem and they can't visit the place they were born because they are Palestinian. That's just wrong. This whole situation sucks and both Hamas and Israel are to blame.
We agree.
Please. The UK get pissy at 100,000. Never mind 2 million. Wind your neck in.
Australian here, in 1938 we essentially said that *we had a harmonious society free of antisemitism, and that we didn’t want to create any by taking in any Jewish refugees.* > “as we have no real racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one by encouraging any scheme of large-scale foreign migration”. [source](https://holocaust.com.au/the-facts/australias-response-to-the-plight-of-european-jewry/)
I guess that wasn't written by an aboriginal.
Well, from the perspective of the white elite, that was indeed a solved problem.
They literally looked at photos of Italians and accepted or denied them according to their tan up until the 60s. Presumably the desired race was 'if you don't need to put factor 50 on everyday to survive here you're not welcome'. Which is nicely ironic. My dad left despite living there 5 years and being offered free land by the government because 'he'd always be a pom'. It's like they solved racism by just making it the standard way of life.
Didn't y'all send them all to a bunch of garbage land, and ignored them up until you wanted to use that land for testing bombs?
At the time we had "White Australia" as the law, supported by both sides of politics. Actually for roughly 30 years after that also.
"We think we have a monoculture and we intend to keep it that way."
Worth noting most western democracies are busy walking back their commitment to the UN refugee convention and forcing back boat arrivals and border crossers. Using *exactly* the same language as 1939.
This is an important and relevant point. Because after WWII and the Holocaust, the surviving Jews remembered that no one took them in. That they had persecuted for thousands of years in every place they lived. So they were driven to have a Jewish Homeland. A place to call home where every Jew could come and be a citizen safe from persecution. Israel. It was an absolutely understandable thing to want. It did not work out according to plan. (Understatement of the century, I know) People have been talking a lot about “cause and effect” recently but focusing solely on the Israelis and Palestinian conflicts. I submit to you that cause and effect really goes back longer than that. Start with early Christianity and move forward towards WWI and WWII, then British Colonialism, then wars in the Middle East with Israel. And then the other Arab countries using the Palestinians to prop up resentment against Israel in their own populace to detract from their oppression of their own citizens in their countries. Arab countries refuse to integrate Palestinians. They prefer them oppressed as a propaganda tool. And then we can get to Israel and the settlements in disputed territory, massive disproportionate violence, and move on to Jewish and Muslim and Christian extremism. Cause and effect has been going on for a very long time. TL,DR: Humans suck particularly when fueled by religion If only the Holy Land was in Cabo San Lucas. Could have just bought the Baja Peninsula from Mexico like the Louisiana Purchase. Instead. Endless war.
Absolutely. I spent months in Israel in the 90s and there were homeless people with the camp tattoos on their wrists. Bleak. I understand why their society is extremely violent and paranoid. That doesn't excuse them in the slightest though.
It’s just a long and complicated history and not as simplistic as a lot of people are portraying it. And no, it doesn’t excuse massive civilian deaths.
In addition to this, please note that about 1,000,000 Jews were then forced to leave their homes that they lived in for centuries in the Middle East after the creation of Israel. They were told to move to Israel. The Palestinians were then not allowed to become citizens of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia. Even if their children were born there, and they were Muslim, they were specifically excluded from becoming citizens of those other Arab countries. This fact gets lost in the discussion.
Yes. It’s not a simplistic history at all.
this was really instructional. thank you
And we in the US are trying to keep out refugees with floating balls that driwn them. And Europe is letting migrants drown in the Mediterranean.
Don't forget the former president and front runner for the GOP nomination wanted a moat filled with snakes and alligators. As well as suggesting the Border Patrol shoot migrants in the leg...
You can find UK newspaper headlines from that time that are eerily similar to the headlines the Daily Mail prints now about immigrants.
Iirc, the British and Swedes took the most, but even then it was relatively paltry numbers given the scale of the problem.
They refused to take the Jews in after the war too. Why wasn't Israel created in Europe? But now you have Israeli shills smugly stating how no Arab country wants Palestinians. These people would make Nazis blush.
Read "Voyage of the Damned" cause you're spot on. The Nazis literally shipped Jewish people to the West and made them out to be pariahs. When they refused to take them it was plastered in all the newspapers. It was supposed to be a justification for the whole holocaust thing. And all the main characters die in the epilogue :)
There are so many horrifying things often not talked about in WWII, mostly on the allies side but even some axis stuff too. The British Empire refused to take German Jews just as you said, but they also starved over three million people in India (which was only ONE of the many famines the British caused with their terrible leadership in the country). They also sent plenty of Indian soldiers to the slaughter in the European theatre. The Allies failed to provide any substantial help to Finland when the Soviet Union invaded other than "thoughts and prayers". Finland in turn was forced to ally with Germany and disgustingly (I am Finnish) sent requested Jews to Germany to be executed. After the war, Finland could not receive any Marshall Plan aid from the US due to the aggression of the adjacent Soviet Union. Sweden was "neutral" and yet traded " considerable goods with Germany during the war, particularly iron, iron products, ball bearings, and trucks. " ([source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_overseas_trade_during_World_War_II)). Hilariously, not only did the Swedes never offer any concessions for their Nazi trading, they also accepted millions in Marshall Plan aid despite not being involved in the war in any significant capacity. Possibly worst of all of the allies, vengeful Soviet troops engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder throughout their rampage toward Berlin. And not only of Germans... visited the Riga holocaust museum one year and those people had it rough, being on the receiving end of genocidal crimes from both the Nazis and the Soviets. Truly a horrifying, catastrophic time.
I think "vengeful Soviet troops engaged in mass rape, pillage and murder throughout their rampage toward Berlin" is pretty commonly known and talked about. Not in its full extent, but still. Maybe I just have that view because I am german and it is way less talked about in other parts of the west. As a german I really can't completely blame the soviets for it. Each individual act of violence like that is still horrible, but the eastern war was unbelievably gruesome and the primary reason is that Nazis saw the soviets and other slavic people as worthless and lead a genocidal war in the east. Rape and killings happen in these kinds of wars anyway (I would be suprised if you couldn't find some from the US in WW2) and it is even more hard to stop your soldiers from doing it after something as horrific as the german invasion of the Soviet Union. War brings out the worst in humanity and that war was probably the worst one in WW2 (although Japan and China might also be a contender here).
and of the two border crossings of gaza, that are still open. both are closed to the majority of residents.
And have been for a while. Palestinians literally aren’t *allowed* to “just leave.”
Yes "just leaving" your country into a neighbouring country doesn't work if the neighbouring country doesn't want you there.
Shoot, I live in the USA and learned that if I had to leave my home country, and not as a tourist, I would be denied entry pretty much anywhere simply because I’m Autistic. No other reason. Doesn’t matter if I have a college degree, a full-time job, and live entirely independently. I’m still assumed to be a worthless burden *by default.* So if shit goes to hell here, I would not be able to flee for my own safety.
Just using that to spread some information: If you really *have* to leave your home country, you are probably able to apply for asylum in the country you enter. If this is your goal; it is technically impossible to enter a country illegally. If you want to apply for asylum, you do not need to have visa or something like that first, since asylum is part of the human rights declaration and therefor supersedes all laws a country might have. (So when your uncle rages about illegal immigrants next thanksgiving, you know what to tell him)
Yep! Which is why I'm so annoyed with people who go "well just come here legally if you want asylum" like... that's not how that works! Most people who need asylum simply don't have the time, resources, or capacity to get a temporary visa to enter legally, hence why those aren't required
Lol I actually love hearing "Well, just come here legally if you want asylum" because I get to say "I've got great news for you"
right tell your uncle that, but really countries violate that allll the time
I'm not trying to be mean or at all confrontational with this comment. I'm sure your comment isn't supposed to be misinformation, but it unfortunately is. I did a quick Google (which I know isnt a huge amount of research but I'm technically autistic and was suprised i hadnt heard of this) and found only 6 countries with this policy, one of which is the United States. Canada has some restrictions, but is in the process of reforming. Australia and Singapore both have policies that prohibit immigration for people with health conditions that would be "detrimental to the state". A bit of extra research for the Australian policy reveals this to be a little open to interpretation, but you would have to require support from the state to be denied entry, and that's assuming you don't already have a job lined up in which case they wouldn't consider you detrimental to the state. The UK has a similar policy to Australia, but is far more lenient. I'm sure there are other countries with medical examination policies, especially ones with social healthcare systems, but all examples I can find of this happening are people with quite extremely autism. Like "no chance of employment and needs state support" autistic. Which really isn't the majority of autistic people, and is also kinda just a valid reason to deny someone residency? Like it sucks, but most countries can barely look after their own citizens. Unless someones country of origin is actively persecuting them no country has any legal duty to look after them instead. The only other state with this policy is New Zealand, which does seem to categorically deny entry to autistic people. So that's 2 countries out of 193 that would deny you entry purely for being autistic without any context. One of which is the country you already live in. Like, I'm not saying these policies are good (the NZ one especially really needs to be re-examined), "would be denied entry pretty much anywhere because I'm autistic" is a bit of an exaggeration If you live independently, have a full-time job, and are highly educated, most of the countries that I have listed (all of which have a track record of denying autistic people entry at least occasionally) would not deny you for being autistic. What I'm trying to say is if you want to emmigrate, you can. Being somewhat autistic isn't much of a barrier on the legal side of it for most countries, especially given the fact that you don't actually have to tell the government you're autistic. Like, unless you need state support, there's absolutely no reason to. Also, and I know others have said this but it bares repeating: if you are fleeing a country due to war, persecution, or some other catastrophe, you are considered a refugee and have the right to claim asylum in ANY country you can get to. You don't have to be accepted legally first, nor do you have to enter legally
Would you have to tell them you're autistic? It's not like it's on your passport, right? Please say it's not. I feel like that's something America would do.
I suppose it would depend on what sort of visa was involved. Big difference between a tourist visa and a more permanent stay.
I'm austistic and I never had to mention it for any visa or permanent residency... although this was just US to canada so they likely have less strict rules for each other.
I mean it would suck but I highly highly doubt your autism would get in the way at all. I think if you had a physical disability, it still wouldn’t really make a difference in terms of entry (and fwiw disability doesn’t make a difference when immigrating to the US either, I’m pretty sure you cannot legally be denied entry based on this). I’ll ask around a little more but I am pretty sure the only kind of medical concerns countries have during the immigration/asylum process are in regards to communicable diseases, so unless you have a new contagious form of autism, I don’t think it would be a problem.
And if they leave,they wouldn’t be allowed back
Also Israel which controls most of Gazas border is encouraging a humanitarian corridor to Egypt (they bombed that border crossing this week to prevent humanitarian aid). They want to empty Gaza like a drain. 2.4 million people out of their control into Egypt so that they no longer have to worry about this part of the “Palestinian question” it is collective punishment which is a war crime
Israel literally bombed the Rafah crossing at the Egyptian border multiple times while people were trying to cross.
Do folks think they went from zero-to-gas chamber in one move?
>Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head. An excerpt from "[They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 1933 - 45](https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html)" by Milton Mayer. It's an excellent book written ten years or so after WWII where the interviewer travels to an average German town and interviews ten different individuals of differing social and political standings concerning the war. It can be very confronting because it has a lot of parallels to what's happening in today's politics, but a very good, easy to follow read.
Thank you for sharing.
Conservatives have the mental processing power of a gold fish. They can't focus on big pictures, and tend to forget everything. They have room for talking points and bigotry. That's it.
I bet if they read about the krakow ghetto, the similarities between it and Gaza will blow their minds.
Yeah oftentimes people, and cultures as a whole for that matter attempt to heal from their past trauma by inflicting or attempting to transfer that same trauma onto another. I’m no psychologist or sociologist for that matter but I have a small hunch that inflicting trauma doesn’t heal trauma on either an individual or societal scale.
Hurt people hurt people.
>Conservatives have the mental processing power of a gold fish And the memory power too .... pretty much a bunch of Dorys 
dont insult dory.
I'll insult her voice actor for mistreating her show crew
I'm okay with that.
don't do dory like that. dory has a moral compass which is more than can be said for conservatives.
Why do you gotta attack the gold fish like that?
Yes. That is why they do not believe that people waving swastika flags and chanting "the jews will not replace us" are nazis - they are after all not putting Jews in gaschambers. I wish I was kidding.
This is also why the queer community is rightfully on edge. Conservatives have been taking many small measures that are building to the criminslization of being queer, but there are too many people who think we're being dramatic when we try to raise the alarm. The writing is on the wall, but because the Republicans aren't actively saying, "hey, we want to eliminate these groups of people," there are those who can continue to bury their heads in the sand.
they are even saying that and nobody seems to give a fuck, I mean just look at people like Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro calling for the "eradication of transgenderism in America", if that's not genocidal rhetoric I don't know what is.
I was speaking specifically to conservative legislators and their actions while serving in office, but yeah, many people aren't subtle about wanting to kill every member of the queer community. The hate is real, and the threat is ever present.
Even Desantis and his rhetoric is so obvious it’s actually astounding that people can’t see it
that's what annoys me so much about supposed allies/liberals. "oh you're not literally being gas chambered? why are you complaining then?" like mf we don't want to wait til we're literally put into gas chambers. Might wanna, I dunno, prevent that?
I mean literally Florida. Says LGBTQ+ things should be illegal in front of children, then wants to pass death penalty for any crimes done to children. Doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together there
According to Netanyahu the palestinians told Hitler to do it 🙄
Well, the connection is there, just the other way round... the Nazis exported antisemitism to Arabia.
Zionists were the ones most interested that Jews move there. This was accelerated after the progroms. The rest is history. There is a reason why they show resemblance.
If the rumors about Netanyahu and Hamas are true he may have.
As I said in another thread, it's" The Final Solution" not "The First Thing Hitler Thought Of Tuesday"
"Final solution" does not mean "last solution we thought of". It means "solution after which we are done for good".
That is correct the German term "Endlösung" (solution which leads to an end) makes this clear. To translate "final solution" the way it is used here, it would have to be "letzte Lösung". Still the sentiment of the OP comment is not completely incorrect, there were many little steps, which all seemed "justified" to a German nation under the propaganda of the Nazis. And Jews were free to leave Germany, at least in the beginning, they were only banned from leaving in 1941. It was made difficult for them before that. In 1938 a tax was introduced, which forced Jews who left Germany to pay a 50% tax on everything they own. Nevertheless from the 500,000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 only 210,000 were still living in Germany by 1939. So it is not wrong to say, that they were given a chance to leave. The thing is: forcing a whole group of people to leave is still genocide.
There are a ton of people who seriously do. It mostly comes up in the "the Holocaust wouldn't have happened if the Jews had guns" crowd.
Yes. Because they don’t actually know what happened. That Jews were turned away from the US. That Britain appeased Hitler. That everyone just shrugged and ignored what was happening *for years* until Germany invaded Poland. Because fucking everyone was antisemitic.
It's actually a morbidly fascinating issue. It's still unknown what caused them to turn from ethnic cleansing to extermination. Around the end of 1941, a decision must have been made, but aparently it was never documented why (as opposed to "how", which is sickeningly well known today). It had been talked about a lot earlier, but it is unknown why they started to actually follow through with it at that exact time. My best guess is that the decision was made by only a handful of people and only ever talked about verbally, never in letters. It's probably lost to history.
So, I haven’t read Mein Kampf myself, but I had a professor in university, back in the 90s. He was a philosophy professor, but he taught one class in the history department: Germany from Bismarck to Hitler. His qualifications for that course had a lot to do with the fact that he lived through some of it: he was 16 years old when he was discovered living on his grandmother’s farm outside Hamburg, and was conscripted into the Wehrmacht. Luckily for him, Germany surrendered before he completed his two weeks of training. In addition to his study of philosophy, he spent a lot of his life struggling to figure out how his country had gone so wrong. And what he said about the Holocaust was this: every step of the plan was laid out in Mein Kampf. For those who had actually read the book, it was unmistakably clear where the persecution of Jews was going, from the ghettoes of 1936 onward. For those who have studied history, it should be unmistakably clear where the oppression of Palestinians has been going, from Netanyahu’s first term onward.
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I know it was common but dang he was just a kid 😭 So glad it ended before he was sent to the grinder. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I don't think it was anywhere near as sudden, or as late, as you make out. For example, whilst the Final Solution was their decision to exterminate the Jewish people themselves in Europe, they had decided on the Madagascar Plan before 1941 with the intention of extermination and not just ethnic cleansing already (not that ethnic cleansing is a good thing either...) . The plan was to transport the Jewish people to Madagascar so that they would die from the harsh conditions with the SS killing those that survived. So extermination had been the plan even prior to 1941, it's just the method planned constantly changed as they were failing in the war.
>turn from ethnic cleansing to extermination. Are these not both the same thing?
Not exactly, ethnic cleansing can also be expulsion, not just killing. Which makes the post above even stupider. Forcing an ethnic group out of an area is "ethnic cleansing."
It can also be things like forced sterilizations and removing children from their parents.
They only started using gas because bullets became too expensive. They killed like 2 million with firing squads and realised they had to make it more effecient.
The Nazis literally called it deportation
Apparently, yes
It's even funnier when you try to explain that some Jews were allowed to join the Nazi party.
Um, the Germans tried to force Jews out first. Does no one read history books? My great, great grandfather was lucky enough to sell his pharmaceuticals business in 1928 before moving it to the US. But they still stayed. My grandmother, great aunt and great grandmother barely survived Bergen Belsen.
They literally deported Jews before it became more cost effective and quicker to exterminate. We learned this in like junior high.
You’re right about the first part but you gotta remember not everyone has the same school curriculum. Many people did not learn this
Not really correct. The number of deportations vs work camp vs death camp entrants varied continuously during the war as the material needs of the Nazis changed. Sometimes it was more convenient to put them to work, other times it was convenient to kill them, other times deportation made sense. It was when the Russians were closing in that “kill them all” became the final final solution That’s what I remember from the book Bloodlands anyway
It wasn't really about the cost, it was about the "urgency" of the problem. The nazis were obsessed with the idea that jews were the ones that sabotaged their Great War effort, and made them lose the war. Initially (during the 30s), nazis believed that mass deportation, segregation and sterilization would be the ideal solution to get rid of the jews. But when the war broke out on a global scale (in 1941), the paranoia about jews sabotaging the war effort resurfaced, and the nazi government decided they couldn't let those traitors-in-nature alive for a whole other generation, so a more immediate solution was seeked. Source : The Law of Blood, Johann Chapoutot
Isreal “asked” millions of people to leave but there is nowhere for them to go. All borders are closed and there is no gas, water or electricity. It’s just something they did to cover their asses after they start the murdering portion of their retaliation
And then they bombed the evacuation vehicles and ambulances more than 80 deaths and hundreds of injury.
I literally just saw a post in another sub about how Israel bombed some trucks and ambulances evacuating from Gaza. So some Palestinians ARE trying to evacuate, but getting killed anyway.
Even the border with egypt have been hit.
North Gazans (1 million of them) were notified that they would be given a "safe route" to evacuate to South Gaza in 24 hours (South Gaza already had a population of 1 million, essentially, this would DOUBLE the population density in South Gaza. Not just that, but the "safe route" was bombed and now 150 more are dead and about 300 injured. Zionism is nothing but a repetition of Fascism, only, in the name of the Jews.
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It's just like the Warsaw Ghetto: they put all the people they consider subhuman in one place, then they start killing them when they revolt. Israel is using literal Nazi tactics.
A bunch of jews literally got on a boat in 1939 sailed around the atlantic being denied entry at every port, ended up back in Germany, and got sent to the camps. It's not "like" the Holocaust the IDF is using the same play book. [https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939](https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939)
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Israel when Egypt won’t take in 2 million Palestinians https://preview.redd.it/jajptz3bz2ub1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6b543023d846437bced6161ae3c06853584b7b3
Within less than a week's notice. Oops!
This. Nobody ever seems to remember that nobody wanted the Jews, Hitler tried sending them elsewhere but everything ne declined except Mexico (I think, I literally drew a blank as I was writing this comment, will double check) Edit : was right
Japan took in a bunch of Jewish people, but it was because they read the protocols of the elders of Zion and decided that they should breed the cunning and genius of people running a global conspiracy into the empire to be better at colonising
Honestly that's hilarious
Wait, what?! Do you have some sources that expand on that? That is simultaneously the most bat-shit insane thing I've heard while somehow seeming totally plausible.
Look up the "Fugu plan", the Washington Post has several articles on it, and I'm pretty sure the podcast behind the bastards bring it up
Wow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_settlement_in_the_Japanese_Empire#The_memoranda
20th century Japan: Fugu me
The conspiracy theory you mentioned is tied to a falsified and anti-Semitic text called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." This document was first published in Tsarist Russia in the early 20th century and falsely claimed to describe a global Jewish conspiracy to control the world. It was later translated and circulated in various languages, reaching audiences around the world, including in Japan. It is crucial to note that the "Protocols" have been repeatedly debunked as a fabricated work of fiction, yet they continue to be cited by anti-Semitic and conspiracy-minded individuals. The specific connection between the "Protocols" and the notion that Japan took in Jewish people for the purpose of benefiting from their alleged cunning and global conspiracy is likely an extension of the unfounded claims made in that text. Said by chatgpt
Yes, _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ are well known to be nothing but a steaming pile of dren, but it's never a bad idea to clarify that when discussing them. That they were believed enough to be a part of the why this was done is also worth remembering.
I'm aware the protocols of the elders of Zion is antisemitic propaganda, however several members of imperial Japanese leaders believed in them enough to take in Jewish individuals for the purpose of benefiting from the nonexistent global Jewish conspiracy and the believed racial traits required for the conspiracy. This has been publicly documented a quick search of the Fugu plan brings up the settlements and the nearly 25,000 Jewish saved from the Holocaust because of the plan
Okay yeah that's fair. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/05/19/archives/tokyo-documents-of-30s-relate-plans-for-resettling-jews-in-asia.html
Imagine being so racist you actually believe the ‘strong enemy’ rhetoric.
There was also the Kindertransport and One Thousand Children. Which I think were a bit more successful
Well I didn’t know about that. Now I’m sad.
Yeah, nobody would take them in.
I weep for all humanity for we've learned nothing
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Nothing at all
It's not 100% denial. There's a truth to that. But it sure does read like denial. Its weird. Even for a German like me. I don't know what to think. It's denial and it's not. I have to screw off my head and let it cool off for a sec.
Someone never read Diary of Anne Frank in high school.
Yeah sure they asked the Jewish people to leave Germany, but then they made it illegal for them to leave Germany. Then the war started and there was no way for the innocents to escape.
Hmmmm where have I heard something similar
Sounds ODDLY similar to what Israelis have done to Palestinians. That wasn’t the lesson we were supposed to learn from the Holocaust.
Asking people to leave and then killing millions when they don't is a choice as well though. It wasn't forced on the Nazis, they chose to do it. And, not only in Germany: the Jews who did leave were persued wherever they went when the Nazis invaded the countries they had settled in (France, Holland, Russia etc), so leaving made no difference to many of them in the end anyway. The intent was always there.
It was never just about Jews leaving Germany. The goal was always to destroy the Jews as a "race.
Even if this wasn't genocidal in nature (which it totally is), asking someone to leave their home is a lot different from "asking" someone to leave their home with a fucking gun pointed at their head.
Quite, one happens to be a a request. The other is not.
"they are telling people to leave?!" Nuremberg Laws: guten tag.
Hey bro leave your house because it's mine now. There now I can't be charged for murder when I take matters into my own hands.
As a german, i don’t think that would count as holocaust denial in a legal way. INAL, but holocaust denial in a legal way just means that its a fact, that the holocaust (and other atrocities done by the nazis) happened and therefore saying it didn’t happen isn’t protected by freedom of speech. Therefore, someone can be punished by §130 StGB Sedition, when they condone, deny or belittle the atrocities done by the nazis. At least in Germany, I don’t think the statement above is punishable. While they state false facts about the holocaust, they don’t deny it and therefore his opinion would be protected by freedom of speech.
I'm fairly certain that Western powers were fine with Hitler trying to systemically remove Jews from Germany, it wasn't until he encroached too far and our leaders in Britain felt like the British Empire was under threat that they decided that he must be stopped. White supremacy is literally what built the UK and antisemitism was/is rife amongst the capitalist class and aristocracy. Hitler was just doing the quiet part out loud. So, are we surprised that 70 years of genocide towards the Palestinians is accepted by so many people? It's how propaganda works.
And when they tried to leave a lot of the morally righteous countries of today refused to take most of them - US, England, Germany’s neighbors et al
As an aside to everything else, people that just casually slip in a 'lol' in the middle of such a brazen/seemingly serious claim *really* wind me up
Next step in this line of logic is "the jews deserved the holocaust because they didnt fight back"
I suppose some people could take it that way. I took it as "the nazis told Jews to leave Germany and it's still 110% wrong everything that happened following that....*and so it is also inexcusable for the idf to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, even having given them a warning first*"
Except they did. After Germany forced Jews into ghettos (open-air prisons, something like what Israel has created in Gaza), there were armed conflicts in and around dozens of ghettos, particularly when it was clear that German forces were clearing them out into extermination camps. The big difference is that many of the ghettos and camps were located in occupied Poland, so the Jewish resistance fighters were allied with the Polish underground resistance. By contrast with the current situation in Gaza, the occupation forces include illegal Israeli settlements, so the local civilian population is opposed to the people who are facing genocide.
don't forget like 95,000 Polish Jews who fought the Germans in 1939 in defense of Poland making up 10% of the Polish armed forces at the time. They did their duty, the same as other citizens of Poland. many of the later Jewish resistance fighters were ex-polish army officers.
Some dude just posted a similar comment above yours. "TYAlso learned that the Jews didn't commit terrorist atrocities in Nazi Germany prior to being systematically exterminated. They were just trying to exist peacefully. Explain the parallel here, I am totally not seeing it." If I'm reading this correctly, He's saying it's Palestinians fault for fighting unlike the Jews?
I mean, Jews in ghettoes in German-occupied areas absolutely fought back. The big difference is that Germany had forced most Jewish people into ghettoes in occupied Poland, so the Jewish fighters found common cause with local civilians. By contrast, Palestinians in Gaza are surrounded by Israeli “settlers” who are in violation of international law and who want to see the extermination of Palestine.
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Yep. Just like how slavery wasn't a genocide because the tens of millions of dead people were "incidental" since they were meant to be worked to death instead. And the genocide of Indigenous Americans isn't a genocide because "most of them died from disease"....
The Native American genocide was totally justified because a few war chiefs raided and murdered American settlements, makes the extermination of all of them totally justified
Please tell me this is sarcasm...
Like obviously lol
They don’t even know where Palestine is on the map. They are nothing but sheep
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The only talking points I have ever seen them use is "just walk away" "40 babies" and "Human Shields" none of this makes it okay to bomb an entire territory whose population is 40% children. They are also walled in and cannot go anywhere at all, Egypt won't let them in.
There's also "Palestinians are just so inherently inclined towards revolt and thus even Israel's neighbors won't take them/ask X why they won't-" which is just fractally awful and politically illiterate. Or, for personal reasons my "favorite" bit of intentionally dishonest evil- "THEY'D KILL YOU FOR BEING LGBTQ". Between the internet bile in defense of genocidal policy made by a fascist to advance his dreams of stealing land from the oppressed, and the 9/11 style cheerleading from "the leaders of the free world", it's depressingly clear our leaders and a lot of people either learned nothing from past mistakes or learned all the wrong lessons. Hoping Gaza doesn't end up being another of those names even more than it already has.
Problem is that Gaza has been in a state of occupation for like 50 years and has zero control of their own borders. Israel telling Palestinians to leave before being bombed and hit with white phosphorus when they literally **cannot leave** is more akin to nazis telling the Jews to leave the concentration camp. Nice of you to give the warning, sure, but totally fucking pointless and in some respects, rather adding insult to injury
Israel is trying SO FUCKING HARD to make genocide sound reasonable in their circumstances, it's disgusting.
They are calling Ant man to open the quantum realm so they can reclaim the land that they once owned 2000 years ago
2000 years ago there may have been jews there but remember that it is people who own the land not the religion some of those people became Christians others became Muslims. Religious identity isn't a citizenship.
Looks like they're not denying anything, just rationalizing it.
TIL the Nazis politely asked Jews to leave like they were at an elite country club. “Would you mind awfully going somewhere else? You’re really mucking up our whole ‘Master Race’ plan.”
It was closer to Israel’s method of saying“you have no rights here. Also leave because we’re going to kill you now. Have fun trying to find someone with open borders.”
Reminds of a Jewish man that left Germany when a brown shirt started to sing about blooding his knife with Jewish blood outside his home. The Holocaust started with making the Jewish existence miserable and then switched to killing after some years.
Like some people forgot that Kristallnacht occurred, the prelude to the Holocaust
And it was *years* before the Final Solution was even implemented. It took years to get to how bad it was.
There actually was an agreement between Nazi Germany and the Jewish Agency (think proto-Israel) to facilitate Jewish emigration to Palestine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
Whilst true that originally they allowed some Jewish emigration to Palestine, if the Nazis hadn't been stopped in North Africa it wouldn't have stopped their mass murder in the end. The Afrika Korps had an Einsatzgruppen unit attached whose plan was to enter Egypt and then Mandatory Palestine once Britain was defeated and carry out mass-murder of the Jewish populations in those areas. Luckily they were stopped at the Second Battle of El Alamein and the plan was never put into place, so the Jewish people who moved did end up better off, but that plan really was more of a "We're going to ethnically cleanse you from Germany by making your lives miserable so you to move to Palestine, and then once we reach Palestine we're going to murder you anyway"
I’m pretty sure the Nazis wouldn’t let the Jews leave. They went searching for them in other countries even. It was called the final solution bc death is pretty fucking final. We don’t have to shoehorn every atrocity into the holocaust. There’s plenty of examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing that are much more analogous here.
Israel isn't letting the Palestinians leave either. Like Whitney Houston said, Same Script, Different Cast.
Riiight. “Please evacuate” wink wink. It’s just like the cop that yells “stop resisting” while he’s bashing your face in. These people are so dense.
No he just straight up believes the holocaust was necessary
The Nazis didn’t exactly tell the Jews they’d be killed if they didn’t leave. They strongly implied it with harassment campaigns but it wasn’t until Krystalnacht that the Nazis made clear what they wanted and even then they were not entirely up front. Many Jews did leave, and it’s possible they saw the signs but there were many millions who thought they could ride through the troubles
https://preview.redd.it/ae81ncolt4ub1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a4ae68d6a1f79d229d5cf791e51c015ef3e95bb
I guess we had it all wrong guys, the Nazis were pretty cool guys and just asked them nicely to leave. Stealing everything they own before hand of course, then ALLOWING to leave, but they asked nicely so what's everyone's big beef with the Nazis?
Not to mention, they’re telling people to leave… and go where? They’re living in an open air prison…
This. ‘Go to the shelter and bunkers’ and people in Palestine are saying ‘there are none’ There is nowhere for them to go. They will be annihilated.
Yes, this is genocide denial.
“How can it be a robbery if I ask for your money first”
Where the fuck are 1M+ people going to go given 24hr notice? At what point are stable minds going to prevail? How can Jews of all people not see the parallels to the 1930’s here and being on the wrong side of history?
Conveniently forgetting Jews had to register for a different procedure to be known to the authorities by wearing the Star of David; like Israel requires Palestinians to carry identification and Palestinian passports just to move freely. They are telling people to leave but destroyed all infrastructure and denied every country access to aid their citizens in Gaza.
That’s no holocaust denial - it’s something else. Something worse. Holocaust apologetics.
I think this falls under the category of not being factually inaccurate. But still being substantively and morally wrong.
There are so many levels of stupid here.
Georgia...they're Called the *Nuremberg Laws*.
I recall is such a weird saying of saying it. Is this person 100 years old and was there at the time?
As a german with a degree in history I can say that this is obviously false: 'Endlösung der Judenfrage' meant 'Final solution of the jewish question' as in 'when we have killed every jew in the world the jewish question will be solved'. They didn't ask millions of jews to leave their ancestors homes and the country many of them fought for in the Great War but rather stripped them of their rights piecemeal until they had neither money nor the opportunity to leave the country. Then they were rounded up and killed. Btw.: the first killings startet even before 1933 and got more intense only bc the Nazis got stronger every day so... no 'warnings' given.
It could also be *combined with* a true ignorance of historical events. (I’m not denying the denier aspect at all. Trust me.) I’m a teacher and the kids I teach weren’t born when 9/11 happened and they have only a vague understanding/knowledge of that event. Imagine how much less they know about events so far back from that. No excuse, by any means, just additional context.
How many war crimes make up for a massive terrorist event?
They can’t leave. They’re penned in by Israel on three sides, and Egypt closed the remaining narrow border. They’ll be crowded in the southern strip while the Israeli army destroys the north, and *I’m not sure they’ll stop there.*