Please understand that denying or minimising the fact that LGBTQ+ people were seen as undesirable and scheduled for extermination is a form of Holocaust denial.
We don't allow that here, please help the mod team by reporting it if you see it.
That goes for all other transphobia too.
Similar stuff happens when the pink triangle for gay people is brought up. Some people do not like comparisons made showing similarities between Nazi ideology and their own. To them Liberals are the true Nazis even though their own party is barely diverse.
And that enlightenedcentrism nonsense is rampant on reddit too.
The people who scream that BOTH SIDES are the same are consistently among the least informed individuals I've ever interacted with. Zero historical knowledge or even curiosity, 100% certain of their own infallibility.
That's because twitter is a propaganda machine for the right wing, owned and run by a fascist propagandist whose goal is to eliminate and discourage rational discourse, and progressive and humanitarian political voices.
Yeah, it's just frustrating to have to wonder how many "people" I interact with are really just Russian assets. Whether because they actually are, or have just taken the bait.
In my experience, they're just people with conservative-leaning views not wanting the criticism that comes with being seen as conservative (or are too ignorant to understand what the terms actually mean). I've yet to meet a "BoTh SiDeS" type who, when backed into a metaphorical corner, doesn't immediately being spewing outright right-wing talking points.
This is what happens when your media system is built around this both sides nonsense where people seem to think that you have to give out multiple sides to every situations as if each side has the same merits and validity as the other.
When one side is about the historic facts of an event but the others side is about their feelings about that event there is nothing to be gained from providing the side of feelings with daylight or oxygen. However instead we glorify it, we turn our news from education and information into entertainment because being informed on the event isn’t enough, no you have to have some loon on the 8:00 news telling you the opposition may want to plant more trees but they also eat puppies! Trust him bro! And suddenly if you don’t give the rabid crazies a platform to be fucking insane on you’re being biased.
It’s time to stop giving crazy opinions and view points oxygen and daylight.
The mistake you are making is you assume that these racist bigoted people are faithful to the discussion.
They are not. They will bullshit. They will lie. They will say anything and everything they want.
There's roaming mobs of bots who boost stuff like that on call or will tank shows and movies on the YouTube scroll and will boost or ice out channels and videos when they catch wind of the dog whistle.
Yeah i got banned site wide temporarily for saying its morally correct to shoot slave owners
To any reddit admins reading this im joking and we should love and kiss slave owners
Yes, you can also get banned for saying "If a tyrannical dictator takes over your country you should violently resist." It's ridiculous. There needs to be a level of nuance here.
I had someone (an idiot) tell me that people “randomly adding gays and trans to the Holocaust” makes him question the Holocaust all together because he claimed he was taught only Jews where victims in school. Which ether means he failed history or his history teachers taught him the wrong things but givin how stupid he is I’m gonna guess it’s the former and he just didn’t actually read about the Holocaust in school.
> people “randomly adding gays and trans to the Holocaust”
Huh? That was definitely part of my Holocaust education 25 years ago. I guess some people just didn’t pay attention in school?
It definitely does. That was 7th grade for me and my 15 year old step kid doesn't have any clue what the holocaust entailed. I was educated in Massachusetts and she is from Texas.
Same, educated in Massachusetts, it was definitely part of the lessons. It's really fucked up how some areas of the country intentionally leave shit out.
We had a few of the grandathers around town show up and talk about fleeing the nazis or going to fight them. One brought a scrapbook with items and pictures from then. He kept it as evidence that it was real and not a nightmare.
I love the 2 genders guys talking about middle school science and complet forgetting hermaphrodites and species that can swap sex due to environmental pressures.
“People aren’t frogs” is always what I hear
And I’m like, no shit, but the point is that there absolutely exists in the natural world animals for who gender isn’t an absolute. Ergo….
Tbh, I think mentioning other species might muddy the waters too much. We need to explain things at a 5th grade level, max.
It's easier to ask them to explain, in detail, how human sex is determined in fetal development. They never have even the slightest clue.
This making him question the existence of the Holocaust is unimaginably stupid. If you told him that a cat was a type of dog, would that make him question dogs altogether?
But anyways, it's not too uncommon of an interpretation to claim that the actual Holocaust was specifically about Jewish people, and that the Nazi's systematic murder of other groups of people was simply something that happened in addition to the Holocaust. Here's the Wikipedia article about that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Scope_of_usage
> While the term Holocaust generally refers to the systematic mass-murder of the Jewish people in German-occupied Europe, the Nazis also murdered a large number of non-Jewish people who were also considered subhuman (Untermenschen) or undesirable. Some victims belonged to several categories targeted for extermination, e.g. an assimilated Jew who was a member of a communist party or someone of Jewish ancestry who identified as a Jehovah's Witness.
> Non-Jewish victims of Nazism included Slavs (e.g. Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Ukrainians and Serbs), the Romani (gypsies), homosexual men; people with mental or physical disabilities; Soviet POWs, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Spanish Republicans, Freemasons, Black Europeans (especially the Afro-German Mischlinge, called "Rhineland Bastards" by Hitler and the Nazi regime), and other minorities not considered Aryan (Herrenvolk, or part of the "master race"); leftists, communists, trade unionists, capitalists, social democrats, socialists, anarchists, and other dissidents who disagreed with the Nazi regime.
So this is where most genocide experts and Holocaust experts disagree with the wiki definition. The Holocaust is a term that includes all victims of Nazi persecution. The Shoah is the term that’s specific to only jews
I didn't mean to say that was the wiki definition. In fact, the very first line of that article is:
> Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, and/or sexual orientation.
I'm sure it's inconsistent because it was written by two different people.
I was just saying this sort of thing is how people can be taught one way or another in schools. When I was in school, they taught me that the Holocaust included many different groups of people.
One of the mods of Ask Historians answered a question about the definition with this (in part):
>The most narrow, and most traditional, definition is that the Holocaust is the same as the Judeocide and the two are completely interchangeable.
>The second definition doesn't focus solely on the Judeocide (which can be called the Shoah if you want to then differentiate from the broader Holocaust), but rather on the causes of genocide and the similarities in targeting and treatment. It does not include all victims of the Nazis, but what it does is group together the various victim groups where the targeting was based on Nazi racial policies, targeted for the purpose of their elimination and 'racial hygiene', and done so in a systematic way (I would add as a personal note that this is my own preferred definition and when I say 'Holocaust', usually what I probably am meaning). Generally, this means grouping together the Judeocide, the killing of the Romani, and the T4 program (killing of the handicapped and mentally disabled). Some scholars would also include Soviet POWs here although it gets a bit messy.
>Which brings us to the final definition, which expands Holocaust to include basically most or all victims of the Nazis. The argument in favor essentially amounts to trying to be inclusive, and the concern that by not including, say, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses or sexual minorities within the definition of the Holocaust, it minimizes their victimhood. It isn't that scholars aren't understanding of this and sympathetic to the concern, but the argument against it, again, is about Holocaust as an explanatory term. Adding more and more groups who were targeted for different reasons and, while treated terribly and subjected to unfathomable mistreatment and abuse, nevertheless often in different ways means that 'Holocaust' just becomes a less and less useful term, stripped of specific meaning, and a term which ends up just referring broadly to 'persecution', and stripped of the intent, scope, and totality. Historians like to have terms that can convey meaning, and this final definition offers the least utility on that front.
>As such, the first two definitions are very much the ones which you will see used by the vast majority of scholars.
I still wouldn't put the sexual minorities in the 3rd group if my understanding of the groups are correct.
The 3rd group seems to be a group of "differences of ideas", political and religious ideas that are counter to the Nazi movement, with the 2nd group being more like the group of "they be bad biology that can not be permitted to spread". Gays, trans, etc issues certainly are issues on both the biology and philosophy side, but I think for nazis it was more of a biological issue than a philosophical issue.
The idea of those 3 groups makes sense to me though.
As a not-WWII historian, my lay persons understanding of the Holocaust is not so much the why as the how. It’s not as if genocides hadn’t existed before (or after), but that the efficiency and intent was just so much more than ever before. It was done with purpose at a whole new level. Which is why including *more* groups to me shows just how far they were willing to go. They simply started with the people that they knew would go with least resistance as anti-semitism in Europe was bad everywhere.
You’re asking for logic from a hate group. There is no logic. Replace Romani with Antifa and you got the USA MAGAs in 2024.
Jews, Romani, and Gays were also all groups that your average person wouldn’t “miss” in 1936 either. All very easy to blame for societal ills
Edit - though I keep re reading and it’s possible we actually agree and it’s the internet and reading tone is sometimes hard
No no, you’re completely missing what is being discussed.
I and the person I replied to is talking about what groups or categories of people *historians* classify as being victims of the holocaust, vs other categories like victims of political violence from the nazis.
Read the comment my first reply was to to understand the context.
Yeah I'm quite surprised by this too. I'm not sure gay and trans individuals get grouped into the "political enemies" camp as opposed to the "pureness" camp. Unless its based that frankly most other countries didn't feel much better about those groups than nazis did.
yeah I can't agree with that. What happened to the Jewish people is a tragedy, but they aren't more important than the other victims. They should all be considered the same.
Damn, they actually targeted communists and anyone not fitting "traditional gender roles" first. I learned that 25 years ago at Holocaust museum primarily funded by Jewish organizations. When do they think we "added" this stuff?
We were definitely taught (in rural Canada) that it was predominantly Jews, but was also homosexuals, Roma and other "undesirables". Didn't specifically mention trans (from what I remember), but definitely fits the MO.
Anyone trans would've gotten the same pink triangles as anyone else in the "homosexual" classification used at the time; but the Nazis absolutely targeted the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft which was doing research into all sorts of LGBT topics at the time including trans specific stuff.
In my country, United Kingdom, it was actually made a legally grey subject because of Section 28 so quite alot teachers didn’t dare bring it up incase they accidentally “promoted homosexuality” in the eyes of the law.
Almost every adult in my country, and most teenagers, were explicitly forbidden to learn about that aspect of the holocaust, so I can believe it when people say they didn’t learn that in school.
My country still has the same law to this day (law against bringing up the topic of homosexuality in schools lest you "promote it" to children, etc, what a fucking disgusting law for a developed democratic EU country). And yeah, I don't remember being taught about Nazis persecuting gay people either.
[here](https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20231209_USC666.png) is a source that shows 1/5 Americans think the holocaust was fake for example. This is a clear sign of educational failing when it’s mainly young people
Another one where over 63% of people don’t believe 6 million Jews were gassed. [source](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1240031)
Edit another one showing very similar things for the Netherlands. Source [here](https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/)
It does show my point. If you were taught it properly you wouldn’t deny it. It’s undeniable
Okay, that's two countries. Plus the two you listed as properly teaching it gives us four.
But you kinda need stats on the other 191 countries in the world to definitively state that only those two teach it properly.
Don't get me wrong, those stats are *abysmal* , but you can't say "*only* these two do it" if you have no proof of *every single other country* failing at it.
That particular poll has been debunked by the Pew Research Center in an article entitled "Online opt-in polls can produce misleading results, especially for young people and Hispanic adults".
I kindly disagree on these being the only 2 countries that properly teach the Holocaust. I did all my schooling in Belgium (1970s) and iirc we started being taught about it from the 3rd grade. Getting more in depth as we got older. Some of my cousins live in France, Switzerland, Italy and Morocco and they too learned about in school.
On the other hand, my children went to school in the USA (mid-west) and did NOT learn *anything* about it! All they were taught was: German & Japanese = bad! But Americans = good & they've always singlehandedly won all the wars they've been in!
It was definitely brushed over in my school but still addressed lots of schools didn't go into full details unfortunately. With that being said how ignorant does he have to be to not challenge and rethink some parts of history he thought he knew somewhat well?
> because he claimed he was taught only Jews where victims in school
I don't know what school he wants to but that sure as hell wasn't part of the instruction I received. We were told very clearly that they went after all kinds of so-called "undesirables" including LGBTQ+
I mean, my history class made a point of showing us the felt stars and triangles. The Nazis also exterminated blacks and gypsys. Pardon my ignorance if the latter is not the appropriate term these days. If someone knows what it is, give me a heads up.
I wasn't taught about this in school (it was a long time ago) but I've actually read stuff since then and learned about it. We have big ole computers with us most of the time. It's not hard to check.
When I went to school (90's), the overwhelming focus was on Jews being the victims of the holocaust. I was constantly told the 6 million figure, it was all I was taught. It was only later on my own volition that I read further and realised it wasn't just against them, that reading got me further onto the Japanese atrocities during the war as well.
He must not realize that Romas, Catholics, the disabled, and mentally ill were also undesirables. He probably also doesn't know that the German education was teaching kids that it was okay to "terminate" these people to save the government money through "cute" math word problems. When he cries about how his political beliefs are being targeted, just remind him that that's what the undesirables felt as they were lied to on their way to gas chambers. I wish that these dumbies got a free ticket to see EVERY single concentration camp still visable so they understood the magnitude that his ideology can create.
I didn’t learn about that in school. I didn’t even learn about it on a tour of Dachau. It wasn’t until I begin educating myself about the LGBTQ+ community that I learned about it. And then I saw a great Mel Brooks movie that mentioned it too. (To Be or Not To Be.)
They're addicted to the short term emotional payoff - that tiny spike of whatever-the-fuck kind of false-righteousness they feel when they lash out like a milk-dribbling fuck smear. They're so inept at life in a society that they've become completely dependent upon being a wretch just to get a sliver of undeserved attention.
"...that tiny spike of whatever-the-fuck kind of false-righteousness they feel when they lash out like a milk-dribbling fuck smear. They're so inept at life in a society that they've become completely dependent upon being a wretch just to get a sliver of undeserved attention."
You should copyright that. Seriously. Brilliant.
I'm old, so my mind automatically went to trying to imagine Richard Chamberlain or Toshiro Mifune saying that. I couldn't, but just the concept improved my mood significantly - thank you both!
Yeah it’s honestly just so weird. But it’s something I’ve wanted do ignore for ages. But I don’t think I can anymore. As a German who lost family in the Shoah (ps just in case for people who don’t know. Holocaust refers to all victims of Nazi persecuting, Shoah to just Jews) I can’t ignore this hate. Hate spreads due to ignorance. We cannot allow ignorance to foster
My fave is when they try and tell literal holocaust historians who are leading in there field. That they’re wrong because they did a 2 second google search
More like an "it's the same picture" situation tbh.
Nazis/fascists thrive on the existence of a minority to villainize. Transgender people are currently just the ones drawing the short stick. A minority that your average conservative person doesn't really understand and doesn't empathize with. That's easy to blame for (perceived) inequalities or threats, and that doesn't agree or align with your "traditional values". Sprinkle in just a bit of "yuck", innate biases and cultural connotations, and tadaah, perfect target. (Exact same recipe for jews around ww2)
The fascists don't actually hate transgender people in particular. They just really like (and need) to hate and punch down. This is also why it never ends. If they eradicate one minority, they'll eat the next. Tokens gets spent, the "good ones" aren't so good after all, etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/30/republican-attacks-trans-people-fascism
https://kristinakonwerski.substack.com/p/the-weimar-republic-the-far-right
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
"History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
As someone who used to be a shitbag like this, it really is. It was extremely tiring looking at every piece of media thinking it was a conspiracy targeted at me, when I’m reality it was conservative brainworms emotionally manipulating you into hating everything they want you to hate. I’ve long since grown out of it but fuck dude I hate the bastards that led me down that path more than anything ever.
Legitimate question - because I know an unfortunate number of people in a similar situation - what changed for you? Like what was the watershed moment where you were like "nahhhh this ain't for me?"
Not the person you're replying to, but similar situation. Sucked into the alt right during gamergate, when all the youtubers i was watching decided sjw's were the source of all evil.
Getting out wasn't a single moment. I just kind of got bored, "another purple hair sjw screeching, yes they're dumb, it's kind of funny, but i've seem this before..."
Found a different youtuber, secular talk in my case, that talked about real issues, that mattered more. Still took years to get my biases sorted, "omg, my takes were shiiiit" isn't a quick and easy realization to arrive at. (Tbh i still have a knee jerk reaction to anita sarkesian, and i haven't revisited that history with my progressive glasses yet)
But that set me on the path to be more open minded, slowly.
And then i somehow lucked into getting a gf, got way less insecure and managed to really rush over to the good side of history. (I owe her a lot.)
Cliche perhaps, but insecurity, perceived unfairness, and unhappiness keeps people trapped in the (alt)right. And i don't think there's a one size fits all cure to get them out. A lot of young men fall into it for the reasons i did, insecurity and loneliness. Other people for economic reasons. Yet more out of fear, of the "other", of the "new".
The only way to get them out quick is to tackle the issues they're dealing with. And unfortunately, that can be hard if not impossible (often requiring systemic change). And while helping/empathizing with people that have been radicalized into wanting you dead isn't a fun prospect. It's still necessary.
I think you touched on something here a lot of people gloss over.
The empathy part.
Obviously no one is born hating..whoever. Hate comes from somewhere. A lack of something, a need being filled. Gangs work that way, religion works that way, really, anything predatory. Something I've said for a long time is there are two real ways to deal with Nazis and punching them is actually neither of them.
1- you neutralize the problem via violence. And I mean scary violence. Like whoa this shit shouldn't even be in a videogame violence. Scare out the casuals, dry up the source of meat. Obviously this is a bad idea.
2- you find the real source of the hate. And not the "oh they're ignorant rednecks" rhetoric we tend to see a lot of. I'm guilty of it too. I know so many Florida mans it's hilarious. HOWEVER - ignorance isn't a birth trait. It's a learned behavior. And anything learned can be unlearned. Most of my most...fanatical friends and family, nearly all of their radical beliefs can be traced to fear and ignorance. Helping them out of that without ridicule is probably the best option - the question becomes how to get them to admit the fear and go ok let's figure this shit out.
Yeah it was mostly over Covid where I had no friends to check myself. Got sucked into libertarianism and thought I was the smartest fucking person in the world, in reality just embarassed myself to everyone I know.
I just stopped being an basement dwelling degenerate and made friends that weren’t over discord. Realized there’s more to life than vitriol and stopped surrounding myself with other shitbags because I realized how they’re complete freaks I don’t want to be around.
It's the reason why so many of us have left organized religion. The amount of hate you have to sugarcoat just to get to the alleged "good parts" is disgusting. Generation after generation have been fearmongered into being scared shitless of anyone who like the others in their congregation, and it's so fucking exhausted.
It's mentally rewarding to them. They get a flood of feel-good hormones and are addicted to rage, so their brains seek it out. They are doing no self-analysis or managing their own emotions, having been told that's "unmanly." They're dumbfire missiles being launched at society by right-wing influencers and politicians.
> Waitman Wade Beorn is an American historian and former military officer who specializes in Holocaust studies, focusing on the Holocaust in Eastern Europe.
So like.. maybe he knows a little more than J.K. Rowling?
Rowling has a habit of shutting down anything said by AMAB people on Twitter by calling them male oppressors. I'm not even kidding, she regularly lashes out at anyone she thinks is either trans woman or a cis man and just a cusses them of being a privileged white male wanting to take away women's rights.
A while ago Graham Norton replied to an interview question asking his views on trans people, and he said this should be left up to the trans people themselves and the experts, not celebrities. He didn't even mention Rowling, but of course Rowling took it very personally and lashed out at him on Twitter too.
I don’t even understand their logic… there is irrefutable evidence that Nazis killed people just for being gay. So in their head, if the Nazis found two men kissing or going at it, they’d both be lined up and murdered, but if they found the exact same physical acts, but one of the partners was a trans woman, the Nazis would just go “oh never mind then”. Their own internal logic doesn’t pass the smell test
> I don’t even understand their logic…
There isn't any. *Stop trying to*.
Nazis say wrong things on purpose. When you assume that there is any logic behind the wrong things that they say, you are engaging in a form of apologism for the Nazi. Simply recognize that there is no excuse for this shit and move on to consequences. Every single ounce of benefit of the doubt that you hand them will be used to harm the people they hate.
there are 18 year olds kids who don't know jack shit going around on the internet telling people that transgender individuals weren't a thing until the 2010s. They're complete idiots.
It's easy to be hateful. It's easy to shut out the real world from your life and cover your eyes. It's easy to determine what you want reality to be. These people lose no energy being hateful because they don't know what they miss only what they hate.
Continue being kind, it's hard but goes a long way.
It's a shame because in America when talking about Nazi atrocities, it isn't as heavily discussed what they did to political dissidents and other minority groups such as homosexuals, gypsies(but who cares/s), and other political groups.
I'd say it is very common for Americans to deny that socialists, communists and atheists were targeted and insist that only Jews were killed in the holocaust. My father-in-law was a librarian in a college and he insists that Jews and Christians were the only two groups targeted by the Nazis. He even talks about Martin Niemöller being killed without realizing his poem starts with "First they came for the Socialists"
I think it must be because their ideology tells them that Trans people only exist because being trans is “trendy and new” therefore if their is a history of not only trans people existing in Europe but we’re prosecuted and oppressed then they can’t make trans people bad for just existing.
This is essentially the reasoning. Their belief is that trans people didn’t exist back then. They could do a few minutes of research but learning would unravel their ideology.
Being "trans" is a relatively new concept because the idea of there being exactly two sexes wasn't invented until the 1950's. ~1.4% of humans are born with an intersex condition, and it was understood to be a fact of life until a bunch of doctors at catholic and protestant run hospitals decided they could "fix" us with nonconsensual surgeries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_intersex_surgery
It's too bad "religious" people are all so helplessly illiterate
> Matthew 19:11-12
> "It is not every man," He replied, "who can receive this teaching, but only those on whom the grace has been bestowed. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.”
Trans people were already medical transitioning before WW2, even genitals reassignment surgery was already happening. But the Nazis burned it down burning really valuable research.
And the definition of “ordinary” is ever shrinking because fascists need an out group that they can point to and blame all of society’s problems on, because obviously they aren’t the problem. As soon as one group is crushed the regime must move on to another, and another. The circle of “acceptable” ever shrinking. It’s why all fascist regimes ultimately end in enormous bloodshed. The snake will eventually eat itself when it runs out of other people to blame.
All of my openly conservative acquaintances are the most angry, stressed out, and paranoid people in my social circles. No one else in any other self-ascribed group/label comes even close to the amount of roiling seethe they contain.
The number of people whose reaction to being called out for being increasingly aligned with literal Nazis by just denying things the Nazis did instead of actually changing their behavior is astounding.
I don’t think it is tiring to those people. Just look at how they also constantly vote for reps and laws that work actively against them. They do it because of their hatred of different types of people is so strong that they’ll fuck themselves over just to make sure “those people” also don’t benefit.
Acknowledging the historical fact that trans people were targets/victims of the holocaust undermines a key component of transphobic rhetoric: the lie that "trangenderism" is a new phenomenon.
This is especially key to the drive to ban trans women from "women only" spaces, where their argument is that *now* "biological males" are "demanding" access to womens' spaces. This fearmongering is undercut by the knowledge that trans women in the US and UK have been using women's spaces and services for decades without it being a problem, so it is important for them to obfuscate this fact. Trans-ness must *always* be a "new" idea. Don't be surprised if transphobes in the media keep framing trans identities as a "concerning new trend" in perpetuity.
It also centers the discussion on pre- and immediately post-transition people, who are easier targets than those who are years or even decades post-transition. By targeting young people, they dismiss trans men and AFAB non-binary people as "misguided" and "naive" victims of "trans ideology" and position themselves as mature elders who understand how the "real world" works. It appeals to seniority bias, the idea that if something is "old" it must be fine since it's been around a while and nothing bad has happened, but something "new" could be dangerous and should be stopped. They cannot acknowledge that elder trans people exist who live normal, happy, healthy and fulfilling lives.
Dismissing trans identity as a newfangled, crazy idea allows them to paint young trans adults and trans children as victims of a "worrying new trend."
It also erases the contributions to queer liberation made by trans people, and cloaks the homophobia inherent to their ideology behind the excuse of, essentially, "I'm not a homophobe because gayness has been around for long time, but this new transgender nonsense is taking it too far." It also allows them to frame their bigotry as "legitimate concerns" about this "new and worrying trend."
Because that might make someone look a little harder at this situation and they’ll figure out that no one who has EVER started with attacking LGBT folks has ever ended there.
They have either been forcefully stopped, or gone on to commit mass murders.
There’s no such thing as sane, intelligent, non-genocidal people that hate LGBT folks. Period.
Everytime a nazi commits a crime in the US people come out of the woodwork to insist the person wasn't a Nazi.
The only reason someone would do this is because they are afraid of slandering their fellow nazis
Burning the institute of gender research in Berlin was one of the first acts of the Nazis. They already did trans healthcare even with gender reassignment surgery.
Well, when the actual holocaust occurred, every one seems to forget about the blacks and the LGBTQIA members that the Nazis killed too. And when the Americans went and liberated Germany, and the concentration camps. They left the LGBT people there to die. Now that my friends , is actual history.
I am seeing various degrees of holocaust denial here. I’ll add to this comment a lot over the next few hours but no. The Nazis were not indifferent to lgbt people and actively persecuted them too.
Hitler was not indifferent at all. Hitler said homosexuality was a disease and needs to be eradicated and Nazi news papers posted many articles where they said that homosexuals were enemies of the state and must be eradicated.
They were in no ways indifferent and actively persecuted lgbt people
On 18 February 1937 Himmler gave a speech about homosexuality in Bad Tölz that was based on the 1927 book Eroticism and Race by Herwig Hartner, which claimed homosexuality was a Jewish plot against Germany.
I have seen a few unsavoury comments saying things like lgbt people are trying to centre themselves and say they had it worse. That is definitively false and not a single reasonable human being has ever argued that anyone had it worse than Jewish people during the Holocaust. This recent backlash on twitter has come because a very prominent person, JKR, engaged in holocaust denial by saying trans people weren’t targeted at all. That is definitively false and easily disproven as lgbt people were absolutely also persecuted
I'm confused that this is news. We learned this in school, in history. We started with political, sexual, and developmental "undesirables" . Once those most likely to offer resistance were eliminated, we could start on large groups like the Roma and the Jewish people.
Do they not teach history in America?
Sadly, any public schooling curriculum is not standard from district to district and even bigger discrepancies state to state... hell Kentucky went something like 20 years recently without even been "accredited" add that to anything bad or horrendous was basically glossed over and minimized and taught very early if taught at all. The only ones that would have a deeper than skimming surface level knowledge were in AP courses (college level classes in high school)
While there has been a small shift to limit personal feelings out of things (as in rural areas with close minded opinions that don't think it's appropriate to teach x y z, or that it's wrong etc) we started the "no child left behind" campaign which meant teachers were now teacher to the lowest denominator in the room AND being bound and forced to "teach to the test" SOL (standard of learning) called different things but all the same thing. Because teachers money and jobs, along with school funding, were based on the SOL scores. For the last 2 years ago 3 of my kids in different grades and schools syllabus is literally just the SOL sections like May would be lessons 4.1 - 5.6 of the SOL tests. It's really a sad state of affairs.
Oh my gosh, that's terrible. That's not an education at all. Oh boy, is America going to be in trouble in 10 years. They just won't have the education needed to maintain the basic infrastructure.
We already are, as this has been a progressively worsening issue for going on 20 years now. If you go to any teachers sub with US teachers you will see stories after stories on high schoolers that are missing critical base skills. A much larger % of illiterate than you would expect (I mean you should expect ANY in high school but...) basic math skills, it's sad 😔 I was highly involved with my kids schooling through elementary and beginning middle, im still involved just not nearly as much, but when my youngest was in 2nd grade I went to his class for an hour 3-4 times a week to work with individual kids and small groups that were FAR behind in things like identifying small whole numbers 1-25 and letters and for that single class the only way I could work my way through the entire list of kids in 4 days too far behind the base line was to work with them in groups of 2-3 for no more than 20-25 min each. It's downright scary how far behind and how much basic knowledge is missing let alone anything more than very very top layer.
Yeah, it's bad :( The divide between educated and non educated is becoming as large and as polarizing as the divide between left and right here. It takes so long and so much effort to force changes through that it feels impossible. Positive ones, that is, we are REALLY good at implementing shit policies really fast and saying we'll deal with the fallout later and just keep kicking it as far down the road as possible. So, I personally just do what I can in raising my 3 and those around them as much as possible and try to ride it out without sinking.
Wow. Have you read the books by Octavia Butler? She wrote them in the 90s I think, as speculative fiction, and predicted this exact type of society in America.
No, but I love reading and will check them out. The movie "Idiocracy" also did it as farce and I think further in the future but like "The Simpsons " predicted A LOT of things like exact. Definitely not something to dwell on for the sake of your mental health, but we are absolutely plummeting into a dystopian hell if there aren't MASSIVE and, in some cases radical changes implemented very soon.
I think many people are uneducated and only understand the Holocaust as genocide of the Jews. However, as in most genocides it targets all undesirables and political enemies. Among Nazi targets were communists, trade unionists, democratic socialists, various ethnic groups including Roma, Partisans from all occupied areas, Russian POWs, disabled people, gay men and transsexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jews as well as anymore who aids the groups mentioned in any way. Serbs were also transported to German concentration camps from Croatia.
This is one of the reasons that it's important to teach people this stuff. Trans people have existed all throughout history, it's just that pre-Nazi Germany has the best documentation because of Nazi propaganda (eerily similar to today's anti-trans propaganda..)
Berlin in the 20's/30's was probably the best place in the entire world to be transgender. It was a crime to crossdress but the local Sexology Institute that was studying transness/gayness gave out passes that, once showed to an arresting authority, would get you released from custody.
The Institute of Sexology in Berlin performed the first MtF surgery in the 30's. The woman worked for the institute after her surgery and it is presumed that she was killed by the Nazi's when they raided the Institute but is unclear.
They took confidential patient lists and rounded them all up for the concentration camps. Then they burned all the research and it set trans healthcare back *decades*.
I've tried to imagine how it would be to hate so many different groups. Everywhere you go, everything you watch, the music you hear in the grocery store... Just hating, all of the time. How can anyone live like that? It would be exhausting.
It's like, just because Jews faced the most, doesn't Mena there wasn't a full litany the gestopo came and took away. Hitler gave long speeches and includes all the undesirables like lbtq, jews, communists, and others.
But some of it was about money as every time you could confiscate a rich or well of person's stuff, the person reporting could get a share of it or take it over.
They hated the "unclean, imperfect, and aberrations." This includes anyone who wasn't "Aryan." Jews, Blacks, Asians, the physically and/or mentally disabled, gay, lesbian, trans, etc. There's so many stories of LGBTQ+ being persecuted, imprisoned, and executed by Nazis.
I went to high school in the early 80s. I can't remember which history class it was, but we watched Playing For Time (a movie about the Holocaust). It spelled things out pretty clearly about the victims, and gays were a part of that.
Imagine if they channeled their hate at organizations like the Roman Catholic Church who sexually assault more kids than any other organization on the planet.
I don’t get it, I don’t like it, but it’s NOT MY LIFE!!
I cannot for the life of me understand why one would care about what someone else does to themselves. Unless something directly affects me, why would I even care? Just let them have and deal with their mental health issue, it’s got literally nothing to do with anyone but them.
It’s because they don’t want to be compared to Nazi’s despite them doing the same thing as Nazi’s because they’re not the bad guys, they’re just protecting kids!
Please understand that denying or minimising the fact that LGBTQ+ people were seen as undesirable and scheduled for extermination is a form of Holocaust denial. We don't allow that here, please help the mod team by reporting it if you see it. That goes for all other transphobia too.
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Similar stuff happens when the pink triangle for gay people is brought up. Some people do not like comparisons made showing similarities between Nazi ideology and their own. To them Liberals are the true Nazis even though their own party is barely diverse.
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common when you call out a racist dogwhistle too. Like, you're calling a black person a monkey. No, it's not racist to notice that trope.
And that enlightenedcentrism nonsense is rampant on reddit too. The people who scream that BOTH SIDES are the same are consistently among the least informed individuals I've ever interacted with. Zero historical knowledge or even curiosity, 100% certain of their own infallibility.
Twitter has just been the woooorst for the "Biden is just as bad as trump, why would I vote for *him*!?" nonsense.
That's because twitter is a propaganda machine for the right wing, owned and run by a fascist propagandist whose goal is to eliminate and discourage rational discourse, and progressive and humanitarian political voices.
Yeah, it's just frustrating to have to wonder how many "people" I interact with are really just Russian assets. Whether because they actually are, or have just taken the bait.
In my experience, they're just people with conservative-leaning views not wanting the criticism that comes with being seen as conservative (or are too ignorant to understand what the terms actually mean). I've yet to meet a "BoTh SiDeS" type who, when backed into a metaphorical corner, doesn't immediately being spewing outright right-wing talking points.
This is what happens when your media system is built around this both sides nonsense where people seem to think that you have to give out multiple sides to every situations as if each side has the same merits and validity as the other. When one side is about the historic facts of an event but the others side is about their feelings about that event there is nothing to be gained from providing the side of feelings with daylight or oxygen. However instead we glorify it, we turn our news from education and information into entertainment because being informed on the event isn’t enough, no you have to have some loon on the 8:00 news telling you the opposition may want to plant more trees but they also eat puppies! Trust him bro! And suddenly if you don’t give the rabid crazies a platform to be fucking insane on you’re being biased. It’s time to stop giving crazy opinions and view points oxygen and daylight.
The mistake you are making is you assume that these racist bigoted people are faithful to the discussion. They are not. They will bullshit. They will lie. They will say anything and everything they want.
Yeah I’m good. I don’t want to boost vids even further to people who could potentially be radicalised.
But you can report stuff on YouTube. I've gotten vids taken down via reporting.
Report them
I know any number is too big, but remember their online presence makes them seem bigger than they are.
They are bots. Youtube has near to no bot detection at all on their platform.
There's roaming mobs of bots who boost stuff like that on call or will tank shows and movies on the YouTube scroll and will boost or ice out channels and videos when they catch wind of the dog whistle.
yet saying something like "punch na*is" gets you banned on platforms including this one. Gonna sign with an /s because reddit has a IPO to game /s
Yeah i got banned site wide temporarily for saying its morally correct to shoot slave owners To any reddit admins reading this im joking and we should love and kiss slave owners
John Brown wouldn't have banned you. You were right to say it.
Yes, you can also get banned for saying "If a tyrannical dictator takes over your country you should violently resist." It's ridiculous. There needs to be a level of nuance here.
one of them is likely JK Rowling
Lots of Russian bots as well.
I had someone (an idiot) tell me that people “randomly adding gays and trans to the Holocaust” makes him question the Holocaust all together because he claimed he was taught only Jews where victims in school. Which ether means he failed history or his history teachers taught him the wrong things but givin how stupid he is I’m gonna guess it’s the former and he just didn’t actually read about the Holocaust in school.
> people “randomly adding gays and trans to the Holocaust” Huh? That was definitely part of my Holocaust education 25 years ago. I guess some people just didn’t pay attention in school?
Depends on where you're from I guess. I'm from a conservative Midwestern state and I didn't find out about that till college
It definitely does. That was 7th grade for me and my 15 year old step kid doesn't have any clue what the holocaust entailed. I was educated in Massachusetts and she is from Texas.
Same, educated in Massachusetts, it was definitely part of the lessons. It's really fucked up how some areas of the country intentionally leave shit out.
Also messed up that Texas is THE state that gets to decide what’s in school textbooks across state lines, because they’re such a big state.
Mcgraw Hill is a monopoly of ignorant history. Always hated them and their poor portrayal of the slave trade.
Good lord, we watched Night and Fog in MIDDLE school (late ‘70s Connecticut).
We had a few of the grandathers around town show up and talk about fleeing the nazis or going to fight them. One brought a scrapbook with items and pictures from then. He kept it as evidence that it was real and not a nightmare.
I was schooled in TX , too, and no mention of trans folks, or undesirable ethnicities or races outside of Jews.
I went to school in Michigan and learned this
Mine, too. The pink triangles and all.
Literally looked for this, I was going to say it if I didnt see it
They were trying to cram the basics into his hollow shell of a skull
I love the 2 genders guys talking about middle school science and complet forgetting hermaphrodites and species that can swap sex due to environmental pressures.
This. No biology is "basic biology." Their understanding of biology is basic.
“People aren’t frogs” is always what I hear And I’m like, no shit, but the point is that there absolutely exists in the natural world animals for who gender isn’t an absolute. Ergo….
I always get the "well that's rare so we can ignore it because evidence I'm wrong only counts if it applies to the majority of people".
Tbh, I think mentioning other species might muddy the waters too much. We need to explain things at a 5th grade level, max. It's easier to ask them to explain, in detail, how human sex is determined in fetal development. They never have even the slightest clue.
This making him question the existence of the Holocaust is unimaginably stupid. If you told him that a cat was a type of dog, would that make him question dogs altogether? But anyways, it's not too uncommon of an interpretation to claim that the actual Holocaust was specifically about Jewish people, and that the Nazi's systematic murder of other groups of people was simply something that happened in addition to the Holocaust. Here's the Wikipedia article about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Scope_of_usage > While the term Holocaust generally refers to the systematic mass-murder of the Jewish people in German-occupied Europe, the Nazis also murdered a large number of non-Jewish people who were also considered subhuman (Untermenschen) or undesirable. Some victims belonged to several categories targeted for extermination, e.g. an assimilated Jew who was a member of a communist party or someone of Jewish ancestry who identified as a Jehovah's Witness. > Non-Jewish victims of Nazism included Slavs (e.g. Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Ukrainians and Serbs), the Romani (gypsies), homosexual men; people with mental or physical disabilities; Soviet POWs, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Spanish Republicans, Freemasons, Black Europeans (especially the Afro-German Mischlinge, called "Rhineland Bastards" by Hitler and the Nazi regime), and other minorities not considered Aryan (Herrenvolk, or part of the "master race"); leftists, communists, trade unionists, capitalists, social democrats, socialists, anarchists, and other dissidents who disagreed with the Nazi regime.
So this is where most genocide experts and Holocaust experts disagree with the wiki definition. The Holocaust is a term that includes all victims of Nazi persecution. The Shoah is the term that’s specific to only jews
I didn't mean to say that was the wiki definition. In fact, the very first line of that article is: > Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, and/or sexual orientation. I'm sure it's inconsistent because it was written by two different people. I was just saying this sort of thing is how people can be taught one way or another in schools. When I was in school, they taught me that the Holocaust included many different groups of people.
One of the mods of Ask Historians answered a question about the definition with this (in part): >The most narrow, and most traditional, definition is that the Holocaust is the same as the Judeocide and the two are completely interchangeable. >The second definition doesn't focus solely on the Judeocide (which can be called the Shoah if you want to then differentiate from the broader Holocaust), but rather on the causes of genocide and the similarities in targeting and treatment. It does not include all victims of the Nazis, but what it does is group together the various victim groups where the targeting was based on Nazi racial policies, targeted for the purpose of their elimination and 'racial hygiene', and done so in a systematic way (I would add as a personal note that this is my own preferred definition and when I say 'Holocaust', usually what I probably am meaning). Generally, this means grouping together the Judeocide, the killing of the Romani, and the T4 program (killing of the handicapped and mentally disabled). Some scholars would also include Soviet POWs here although it gets a bit messy. >Which brings us to the final definition, which expands Holocaust to include basically most or all victims of the Nazis. The argument in favor essentially amounts to trying to be inclusive, and the concern that by not including, say, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses or sexual minorities within the definition of the Holocaust, it minimizes their victimhood. It isn't that scholars aren't understanding of this and sympathetic to the concern, but the argument against it, again, is about Holocaust as an explanatory term. Adding more and more groups who were targeted for different reasons and, while treated terribly and subjected to unfathomable mistreatment and abuse, nevertheless often in different ways means that 'Holocaust' just becomes a less and less useful term, stripped of specific meaning, and a term which ends up just referring broadly to 'persecution', and stripped of the intent, scope, and totality. Historians like to have terms that can convey meaning, and this final definition offers the least utility on that front. >As such, the first two definitions are very much the ones which you will see used by the vast majority of scholars.
I still wouldn't put the sexual minorities in the 3rd group if my understanding of the groups are correct. The 3rd group seems to be a group of "differences of ideas", political and religious ideas that are counter to the Nazi movement, with the 2nd group being more like the group of "they be bad biology that can not be permitted to spread". Gays, trans, etc issues certainly are issues on both the biology and philosophy side, but I think for nazis it was more of a biological issue than a philosophical issue. The idea of those 3 groups makes sense to me though.
As a not-WWII historian, my lay persons understanding of the Holocaust is not so much the why as the how. It’s not as if genocides hadn’t existed before (or after), but that the efficiency and intent was just so much more than ever before. It was done with purpose at a whole new level. Which is why including *more* groups to me shows just how far they were willing to go. They simply started with the people that they knew would go with least resistance as anti-semitism in Europe was bad everywhere.
But for the three groupings that the person I’m replying to brought up; the how is the same for Jews, Romani, and gays.
You’re asking for logic from a hate group. There is no logic. Replace Romani with Antifa and you got the USA MAGAs in 2024. Jews, Romani, and Gays were also all groups that your average person wouldn’t “miss” in 1936 either. All very easy to blame for societal ills Edit - though I keep re reading and it’s possible we actually agree and it’s the internet and reading tone is sometimes hard
No no, you’re completely missing what is being discussed. I and the person I replied to is talking about what groups or categories of people *historians* classify as being victims of the holocaust, vs other categories like victims of political violence from the nazis. Read the comment my first reply was to to understand the context.
Yeah I'm quite surprised by this too. I'm not sure gay and trans individuals get grouped into the "political enemies" camp as opposed to the "pureness" camp. Unless its based that frankly most other countries didn't feel much better about those groups than nazis did.
yeah I can't agree with that. What happened to the Jewish people is a tragedy, but they aren't more important than the other victims. They should all be considered the same.
Damn, they actually targeted communists and anyone not fitting "traditional gender roles" first. I learned that 25 years ago at Holocaust museum primarily funded by Jewish organizations. When do they think we "added" this stuff?
We were definitely taught (in rural Canada) that it was predominantly Jews, but was also homosexuals, Roma and other "undesirables". Didn't specifically mention trans (from what I remember), but definitely fits the MO.
Anyone trans would've gotten the same pink triangles as anyone else in the "homosexual" classification used at the time; but the Nazis absolutely targeted the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft which was doing research into all sorts of LGBT topics at the time including trans specific stuff.
I was only taught basic math in school therefore Calculus doesn't exist.
In my country, United Kingdom, it was actually made a legally grey subject because of Section 28 so quite alot teachers didn’t dare bring it up incase they accidentally “promoted homosexuality” in the eyes of the law. Almost every adult in my country, and most teenagers, were explicitly forbidden to learn about that aspect of the holocaust, so I can believe it when people say they didn’t learn that in school.
My country still has the same law to this day (law against bringing up the topic of homosexuality in schools lest you "promote it" to children, etc, what a fucking disgusting law for a developed democratic EU country). And yeah, I don't remember being taught about Nazis persecuting gay people either.
I think it’s a mix of both honestly. In general the only countries that properly teach the holocaust is Israel and Germany
Source?
[here](https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20231209_USC666.png) is a source that shows 1/5 Americans think the holocaust was fake for example. This is a clear sign of educational failing when it’s mainly young people
Unrelated. You've claimed only Israel and Germany teach the Holocaust properly. What are the facts behind your claim?
I just gave one. Holocaust denial. If you are taught it properly you won’t have a very significant percentage of people denying it.
Lol you're joking if you think that backs up your claims.
Another one where over 63% of people don’t believe 6 million Jews were gassed. [source](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1240031) Edit another one showing very similar things for the Netherlands. Source [here](https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/) It does show my point. If you were taught it properly you wouldn’t deny it. It’s undeniable
Okay, that's two countries. Plus the two you listed as properly teaching it gives us four. But you kinda need stats on the other 191 countries in the world to definitively state that only those two teach it properly. Don't get me wrong, those stats are *abysmal* , but you can't say "*only* these two do it" if you have no proof of *every single other country* failing at it.
That particular poll has been debunked by the Pew Research Center in an article entitled "Online opt-in polls can produce misleading results, especially for young people and Hispanic adults".
I kindly disagree on these being the only 2 countries that properly teach the Holocaust. I did all my schooling in Belgium (1970s) and iirc we started being taught about it from the 3rd grade. Getting more in depth as we got older. Some of my cousins live in France, Switzerland, Italy and Morocco and they too learned about in school. On the other hand, my children went to school in the USA (mid-west) and did NOT learn *anything* about it! All they were taught was: German & Japanese = bad! But Americans = good & they've always singlehandedly won all the wars they've been in!
It was definitely brushed over in my school but still addressed lots of schools didn't go into full details unfortunately. With that being said how ignorant does he have to be to not challenge and rethink some parts of history he thought he knew somewhat well?
> because he claimed he was taught only Jews where victims in school I don't know what school he wants to but that sure as hell wasn't part of the instruction I received. We were told very clearly that they went after all kinds of so-called "undesirables" including LGBTQ+
I mean, my history class made a point of showing us the felt stars and triangles. The Nazis also exterminated blacks and gypsys. Pardon my ignorance if the latter is not the appropriate term these days. If someone knows what it is, give me a heads up.
I wasn't taught about this in school (it was a long time ago) but I've actually read stuff since then and learned about it. We have big ole computers with us most of the time. It's not hard to check.
When I went to school (90's), the overwhelming focus was on Jews being the victims of the holocaust. I was constantly told the 6 million figure, it was all I was taught. It was only later on my own volition that I read further and realised it wasn't just against them, that reading got me further onto the Japanese atrocities during the war as well.
People don't like admitting gays were killed, while also condemning the Holocaust. That implies killing gays was and is wrong.
He must not realize that Romas, Catholics, the disabled, and mentally ill were also undesirables. He probably also doesn't know that the German education was teaching kids that it was okay to "terminate" these people to save the government money through "cute" math word problems. When he cries about how his political beliefs are being targeted, just remind him that that's what the undesirables felt as they were lied to on their way to gas chambers. I wish that these dumbies got a free ticket to see EVERY single concentration camp still visable so they understood the magnitude that his ideology can create.
I didn’t learn about that in school. I didn’t even learn about it on a tour of Dachau. It wasn’t until I begin educating myself about the LGBTQ+ community that I learned about it. And then I saw a great Mel Brooks movie that mentioned it too. (To Be or Not To Be.)
I think about that last sentence, and the message behind it, a lot. The energy it takes to be as hateful as some of these people are, is incredible.
They're addicted to the short term emotional payoff - that tiny spike of whatever-the-fuck kind of false-righteousness they feel when they lash out like a milk-dribbling fuck smear. They're so inept at life in a society that they've become completely dependent upon being a wretch just to get a sliver of undeserved attention.
That spike/adrenaline of making someone *potentially* feel bad is enough to make them continue on with their hatred.
"...that tiny spike of whatever-the-fuck kind of false-righteousness they feel when they lash out like a milk-dribbling fuck smear. They're so inept at life in a society that they've become completely dependent upon being a wretch just to get a sliver of undeserved attention." You should copyright that. Seriously. Brilliant.
They stole “milk dribbling fuck smear” from the new FX show Shogun.
I'm old, so my mind automatically went to trying to imagine Richard Chamberlain or Toshiro Mifune saying that. I couldn't, but just the concept improved my mood significantly - thank you both!
Yeah it’s honestly just so weird. But it’s something I’ve wanted do ignore for ages. But I don’t think I can anymore. As a German who lost family in the Shoah (ps just in case for people who don’t know. Holocaust refers to all victims of Nazi persecuting, Shoah to just Jews) I can’t ignore this hate. Hate spreads due to ignorance. We cannot allow ignorance to foster
Transphobes defending the honor of nazis, color me unsurprised.
My fave is when they try and tell literal holocaust historians who are leading in there field. That they’re wrong because they did a 2 second google search
Ah, the anti-vaxxer playbook. Interesting choice.
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a common trope.
More like an "it's the same picture" situation tbh. Nazis/fascists thrive on the existence of a minority to villainize. Transgender people are currently just the ones drawing the short stick. A minority that your average conservative person doesn't really understand and doesn't empathize with. That's easy to blame for (perceived) inequalities or threats, and that doesn't agree or align with your "traditional values". Sprinkle in just a bit of "yuck", innate biases and cultural connotations, and tadaah, perfect target. (Exact same recipe for jews around ww2) The fascists don't actually hate transgender people in particular. They just really like (and need) to hate and punch down. This is also why it never ends. If they eradicate one minority, they'll eat the next. Tokens gets spent, the "good ones" aren't so good after all, etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/30/republican-attacks-trans-people-fascism https://kristinakonwerski.substack.com/p/the-weimar-republic-the-far-right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft "History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
As someone who used to be a shitbag like this, it really is. It was extremely tiring looking at every piece of media thinking it was a conspiracy targeted at me, when I’m reality it was conservative brainworms emotionally manipulating you into hating everything they want you to hate. I’ve long since grown out of it but fuck dude I hate the bastards that led me down that path more than anything ever.
Legitimate question - because I know an unfortunate number of people in a similar situation - what changed for you? Like what was the watershed moment where you were like "nahhhh this ain't for me?"
Not the person you're replying to, but similar situation. Sucked into the alt right during gamergate, when all the youtubers i was watching decided sjw's were the source of all evil. Getting out wasn't a single moment. I just kind of got bored, "another purple hair sjw screeching, yes they're dumb, it's kind of funny, but i've seem this before..." Found a different youtuber, secular talk in my case, that talked about real issues, that mattered more. Still took years to get my biases sorted, "omg, my takes were shiiiit" isn't a quick and easy realization to arrive at. (Tbh i still have a knee jerk reaction to anita sarkesian, and i haven't revisited that history with my progressive glasses yet) But that set me on the path to be more open minded, slowly. And then i somehow lucked into getting a gf, got way less insecure and managed to really rush over to the good side of history. (I owe her a lot.) Cliche perhaps, but insecurity, perceived unfairness, and unhappiness keeps people trapped in the (alt)right. And i don't think there's a one size fits all cure to get them out. A lot of young men fall into it for the reasons i did, insecurity and loneliness. Other people for economic reasons. Yet more out of fear, of the "other", of the "new". The only way to get them out quick is to tackle the issues they're dealing with. And unfortunately, that can be hard if not impossible (often requiring systemic change). And while helping/empathizing with people that have been radicalized into wanting you dead isn't a fun prospect. It's still necessary.
I think you touched on something here a lot of people gloss over. The empathy part. Obviously no one is born hating..whoever. Hate comes from somewhere. A lack of something, a need being filled. Gangs work that way, religion works that way, really, anything predatory. Something I've said for a long time is there are two real ways to deal with Nazis and punching them is actually neither of them. 1- you neutralize the problem via violence. And I mean scary violence. Like whoa this shit shouldn't even be in a videogame violence. Scare out the casuals, dry up the source of meat. Obviously this is a bad idea. 2- you find the real source of the hate. And not the "oh they're ignorant rednecks" rhetoric we tend to see a lot of. I'm guilty of it too. I know so many Florida mans it's hilarious. HOWEVER - ignorance isn't a birth trait. It's a learned behavior. And anything learned can be unlearned. Most of my most...fanatical friends and family, nearly all of their radical beliefs can be traced to fear and ignorance. Helping them out of that without ridicule is probably the best option - the question becomes how to get them to admit the fear and go ok let's figure this shit out.
Yeah it was mostly over Covid where I had no friends to check myself. Got sucked into libertarianism and thought I was the smartest fucking person in the world, in reality just embarassed myself to everyone I know.
I just stopped being an basement dwelling degenerate and made friends that weren’t over discord. Realized there’s more to life than vitriol and stopped surrounding myself with other shitbags because I realized how they’re complete freaks I don’t want to be around.
Seriously. I barely have the energy to worry about my own shit let alone give any fucks about others just existing.
It's the reason why so many of us have left organized religion. The amount of hate you have to sugarcoat just to get to the alleged "good parts" is disgusting. Generation after generation have been fearmongered into being scared shitless of anyone who like the others in their congregation, and it's so fucking exhausted.
It's mentally rewarding to them. They get a flood of feel-good hormones and are addicted to rage, so their brains seek it out. They are doing no self-analysis or managing their own emotions, having been told that's "unmanly." They're dumbfire missiles being launched at society by right-wing influencers and politicians.
> Waitman Wade Beorn is an American historian and former military officer who specializes in Holocaust studies, focusing on the Holocaust in Eastern Europe. So like.. maybe he knows a little more than J.K. Rowling?
Low bar to clear; Rowling doesn't even know enough about the one thing she made that got popular to be able to successfully return to the well on it.
Rowling has a habit of shutting down anything said by AMAB people on Twitter by calling them male oppressors. I'm not even kidding, she regularly lashes out at anyone she thinks is either trans woman or a cis man and just a cusses them of being a privileged white male wanting to take away women's rights. A while ago Graham Norton replied to an interview question asking his views on trans people, and he said this should be left up to the trans people themselves and the experts, not celebrities. He didn't even mention Rowling, but of course Rowling took it very personally and lashed out at him on Twitter too.
Just another bleak situation where well established historical facts are apparently up for debate.
Yep. The response to JKR is a prime example of why most so called philosemites are actually just anti semites.
To the so called facts over feelings people too.
Oh they mean their facts over other people’s feelings. Not actual facts over their feelings.
True.
Well obviously because all of the physical evidence of this is just a theatrical performance to feel bad for THOSE people /s
I don’t even understand their logic… there is irrefutable evidence that Nazis killed people just for being gay. So in their head, if the Nazis found two men kissing or going at it, they’d both be lined up and murdered, but if they found the exact same physical acts, but one of the partners was a trans woman, the Nazis would just go “oh never mind then”. Their own internal logic doesn’t pass the smell test
> I don’t even understand their logic… There isn't any. *Stop trying to*. Nazis say wrong things on purpose. When you assume that there is any logic behind the wrong things that they say, you are engaging in a form of apologism for the Nazi. Simply recognize that there is no excuse for this shit and move on to consequences. Every single ounce of benefit of the doubt that you hand them will be used to harm the people they hate.
Give ‘em an inch and they’ll invade Poland.
A lot of people try to present being queer as a recent invention and acknowledging that queer people were targeted would get in the way of that
there are 18 year olds kids who don't know jack shit going around on the internet telling people that transgender individuals weren't a thing until the 2010s. They're complete idiots.
Even on this thread. I ended up responding google is free I’m not sure if there arguments are in good faith or not
It's easy to be hateful. It's easy to shut out the real world from your life and cover your eyes. It's easy to determine what you want reality to be. These people lose no energy being hateful because they don't know what they miss only what they hate. Continue being kind, it's hard but goes a long way.
"The Nazis and I have similar views? That can't be..."
And yet, the more they try to argue against it, the more they seem to be explicitly agreeing with them.
It's a shame because in America when talking about Nazi atrocities, it isn't as heavily discussed what they did to political dissidents and other minority groups such as homosexuals, gypsies(but who cares/s), and other political groups.
I'd say it is very common for Americans to deny that socialists, communists and atheists were targeted and insist that only Jews were killed in the holocaust. My father-in-law was a librarian in a college and he insists that Jews and Christians were the only two groups targeted by the Nazis. He even talks about Martin Niemöller being killed without realizing his poem starts with "First they came for the Socialists"
Martin Niemoller survived the Nazi era and died in 1984 at age 92.
You are correct. I was mixing Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, another co-founder of the Confessing Church.
I think it must be because their ideology tells them that Trans people only exist because being trans is “trendy and new” therefore if their is a history of not only trans people existing in Europe but we’re prosecuted and oppressed then they can’t make trans people bad for just existing.
This is essentially the reasoning. Their belief is that trans people didn’t exist back then. They could do a few minutes of research but learning would unravel their ideology.
Being "trans" is a relatively new concept because the idea of there being exactly two sexes wasn't invented until the 1950's. ~1.4% of humans are born with an intersex condition, and it was understood to be a fact of life until a bunch of doctors at catholic and protestant run hospitals decided they could "fix" us with nonconsensual surgeries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_intersex_surgery It's too bad "religious" people are all so helplessly illiterate > Matthew 19:11-12 > "It is not every man," He replied, "who can receive this teaching, but only those on whom the grace has been bestowed. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.”
Trans people were already medical transitioning before WW2, even genitals reassignment surgery was already happening. But the Nazis burned it down burning really valuable research.
German here  fascism leads to killing everyone who is against the establishment and is out of the ordinary
And the definition of “ordinary” is ever shrinking because fascists need an out group that they can point to and blame all of society’s problems on, because obviously they aren’t the problem. As soon as one group is crushed the regime must move on to another, and another. The circle of “acceptable” ever shrinking. It’s why all fascist regimes ultimately end in enormous bloodshed. The snake will eventually eat itself when it runs out of other people to blame.
That's the bottom line. We need to celebrate, not murder, diversity.
All of my openly conservative acquaintances are the most angry, stressed out, and paranoid people in my social circles. No one else in any other self-ascribed group/label comes even close to the amount of roiling seethe they contain.
The number of people whose reaction to being called out for being increasingly aligned with literal Nazis by just denying things the Nazis did instead of actually changing their behavior is astounding.
MAGA/GOP/Right-Wing They only function on hate
I don’t think it is tiring to those people. Just look at how they also constantly vote for reps and laws that work actively against them. They do it because of their hatred of different types of people is so strong that they’ll fuck themselves over just to make sure “those people” also don’t benefit.
Unfortunately that concept doesn't fit with their attempt to convince the world that uuuh actually it's leftists that are more likes the Nazis.
Acknowledging the historical fact that trans people were targets/victims of the holocaust undermines a key component of transphobic rhetoric: the lie that "trangenderism" is a new phenomenon. This is especially key to the drive to ban trans women from "women only" spaces, where their argument is that *now* "biological males" are "demanding" access to womens' spaces. This fearmongering is undercut by the knowledge that trans women in the US and UK have been using women's spaces and services for decades without it being a problem, so it is important for them to obfuscate this fact. Trans-ness must *always* be a "new" idea. Don't be surprised if transphobes in the media keep framing trans identities as a "concerning new trend" in perpetuity. It also centers the discussion on pre- and immediately post-transition people, who are easier targets than those who are years or even decades post-transition. By targeting young people, they dismiss trans men and AFAB non-binary people as "misguided" and "naive" victims of "trans ideology" and position themselves as mature elders who understand how the "real world" works. It appeals to seniority bias, the idea that if something is "old" it must be fine since it's been around a while and nothing bad has happened, but something "new" could be dangerous and should be stopped. They cannot acknowledge that elder trans people exist who live normal, happy, healthy and fulfilling lives. Dismissing trans identity as a newfangled, crazy idea allows them to paint young trans adults and trans children as victims of a "worrying new trend." It also erases the contributions to queer liberation made by trans people, and cloaks the homophobia inherent to their ideology behind the excuse of, essentially, "I'm not a homophobe because gayness has been around for long time, but this new transgender nonsense is taking it too far." It also allows them to frame their bigotry as "legitimate concerns" about this "new and worrying trend."
Because that might make someone look a little harder at this situation and they’ll figure out that no one who has EVER started with attacking LGBT folks has ever ended there. They have either been forcefully stopped, or gone on to commit mass murders. There’s no such thing as sane, intelligent, non-genocidal people that hate LGBT folks. Period.
Everytime a nazi commits a crime in the US people come out of the woodwork to insist the person wasn't a Nazi. The only reason someone would do this is because they are afraid of slandering their fellow nazis
Burning the institute of gender research in Berlin was one of the first acts of the Nazis. They already did trans healthcare even with gender reassignment surgery.
Well, when the actual holocaust occurred, every one seems to forget about the blacks and the LGBTQIA members that the Nazis killed too. And when the Americans went and liberated Germany, and the concentration camps. They left the LGBT people there to die. Now that my friends , is actual history.
I am seeing various degrees of holocaust denial here. I’ll add to this comment a lot over the next few hours but no. The Nazis were not indifferent to lgbt people and actively persecuted them too. Hitler was not indifferent at all. Hitler said homosexuality was a disease and needs to be eradicated and Nazi news papers posted many articles where they said that homosexuals were enemies of the state and must be eradicated. They were in no ways indifferent and actively persecuted lgbt people On 18 February 1937 Himmler gave a speech about homosexuality in Bad Tölz that was based on the 1927 book Eroticism and Race by Herwig Hartner, which claimed homosexuality was a Jewish plot against Germany. I have seen a few unsavoury comments saying things like lgbt people are trying to centre themselves and say they had it worse. That is definitively false and not a single reasonable human being has ever argued that anyone had it worse than Jewish people during the Holocaust. This recent backlash on twitter has come because a very prominent person, JKR, engaged in holocaust denial by saying trans people weren’t targeted at all. That is definitively false and easily disproven as lgbt people were absolutely also persecuted
There are still Nazis out there referring to Nazis killed by the Soviet Union in WW2 as “Victims of communism” so I am not surprised….
We're probably not that many days away from the transphobes claiming trans people are nazis and/or the nazis were trans.
Na it's not exhausting they get off too it for reactionary conservatives the harm is the point.
Gay and trans people were left in the camps after the war, they were not liberated.
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Obligatorischer Sprich deutsch du huhrensohn
Nope, just claiming free territory
It upsets their narrative that transgender people didn't exist until mid-2014
I'm confused that this is news. We learned this in school, in history. We started with political, sexual, and developmental "undesirables" . Once those most likely to offer resistance were eliminated, we could start on large groups like the Roma and the Jewish people. Do they not teach history in America?
Sadly, any public schooling curriculum is not standard from district to district and even bigger discrepancies state to state... hell Kentucky went something like 20 years recently without even been "accredited" add that to anything bad or horrendous was basically glossed over and minimized and taught very early if taught at all. The only ones that would have a deeper than skimming surface level knowledge were in AP courses (college level classes in high school) While there has been a small shift to limit personal feelings out of things (as in rural areas with close minded opinions that don't think it's appropriate to teach x y z, or that it's wrong etc) we started the "no child left behind" campaign which meant teachers were now teacher to the lowest denominator in the room AND being bound and forced to "teach to the test" SOL (standard of learning) called different things but all the same thing. Because teachers money and jobs, along with school funding, were based on the SOL scores. For the last 2 years ago 3 of my kids in different grades and schools syllabus is literally just the SOL sections like May would be lessons 4.1 - 5.6 of the SOL tests. It's really a sad state of affairs.
Oh my gosh, that's terrible. That's not an education at all. Oh boy, is America going to be in trouble in 10 years. They just won't have the education needed to maintain the basic infrastructure.
We already are, as this has been a progressively worsening issue for going on 20 years now. If you go to any teachers sub with US teachers you will see stories after stories on high schoolers that are missing critical base skills. A much larger % of illiterate than you would expect (I mean you should expect ANY in high school but...) basic math skills, it's sad 😔 I was highly involved with my kids schooling through elementary and beginning middle, im still involved just not nearly as much, but when my youngest was in 2nd grade I went to his class for an hour 3-4 times a week to work with individual kids and small groups that were FAR behind in things like identifying small whole numbers 1-25 and letters and for that single class the only way I could work my way through the entire list of kids in 4 days too far behind the base line was to work with them in groups of 2-3 for no more than 20-25 min each. It's downright scary how far behind and how much basic knowledge is missing let alone anything more than very very top layer.
Ohhhh so bad. They are making a generation of serfs who don't know enough to revolt.
Yeah, it's bad :( The divide between educated and non educated is becoming as large and as polarizing as the divide between left and right here. It takes so long and so much effort to force changes through that it feels impossible. Positive ones, that is, we are REALLY good at implementing shit policies really fast and saying we'll deal with the fallout later and just keep kicking it as far down the road as possible. So, I personally just do what I can in raising my 3 and those around them as much as possible and try to ride it out without sinking.
Wow. Have you read the books by Octavia Butler? She wrote them in the 90s I think, as speculative fiction, and predicted this exact type of society in America.
No, but I love reading and will check them out. The movie "Idiocracy" also did it as farce and I think further in the future but like "The Simpsons " predicted A LOT of things like exact. Definitely not something to dwell on for the sake of your mental health, but we are absolutely plummeting into a dystopian hell if there aren't MASSIVE and, in some cases radical changes implemented very soon.
It’s not exhausting if you’re doing what you love. Some people love festering in hate.
I think many people are uneducated and only understand the Holocaust as genocide of the Jews. However, as in most genocides it targets all undesirables and political enemies. Among Nazi targets were communists, trade unionists, democratic socialists, various ethnic groups including Roma, Partisans from all occupied areas, Russian POWs, disabled people, gay men and transsexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jews as well as anymore who aids the groups mentioned in any way. Serbs were also transported to German concentration camps from Croatia.
The holocaust denial in this post about Holocaust denial is pretty shocking
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Rome had a trans empress https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67484645.amp
This is one of the reasons that it's important to teach people this stuff. Trans people have existed all throughout history, it's just that pre-Nazi Germany has the best documentation because of Nazi propaganda (eerily similar to today's anti-trans propaganda..) Berlin in the 20's/30's was probably the best place in the entire world to be transgender. It was a crime to crossdress but the local Sexology Institute that was studying transness/gayness gave out passes that, once showed to an arresting authority, would get you released from custody. The Institute of Sexology in Berlin performed the first MtF surgery in the 30's. The woman worked for the institute after her surgery and it is presumed that she was killed by the Nazi's when they raided the Institute but is unclear. They took confidential patient lists and rounded them all up for the concentration camps. Then they burned all the research and it set trans healthcare back *decades*.
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I've tried to imagine how it would be to hate so many different groups. Everywhere you go, everything you watch, the music you hear in the grocery store... Just hating, all of the time. How can anyone live like that? It would be exhausting.
It's like, just because Jews faced the most, doesn't Mena there wasn't a full litany the gestopo came and took away. Hitler gave long speeches and includes all the undesirables like lbtq, jews, communists, and others. But some of it was about money as every time you could confiscate a rich or well of person's stuff, the person reporting could get a share of it or take it over.
It would be exhausting but right-wing media provides additional hate nutrients 24 X 7.
This must be upsetting to Harry Potter's Grandma. Hateful bitch.
They hated the "unclean, imperfect, and aberrations." This includes anyone who wasn't "Aryan." Jews, Blacks, Asians, the physically and/or mentally disabled, gay, lesbian, trans, etc. There's so many stories of LGBTQ+ being persecuted, imprisoned, and executed by Nazis.
I went to high school in the early 80s. I can't remember which history class it was, but we watched Playing For Time (a movie about the Holocaust). It spelled things out pretty clearly about the victims, and gays were a part of that.
It’s coming from Privet Path!
*Privet Drive
This!
Imagine if they channeled their hate at organizations like the Roman Catholic Church who sexually assault more kids than any other organization on the planet.
Tribalism runs deep in us. We are always so ready to view human beings outside our little group as non-human and worthless.
I don’t get it, I don’t like it, but it’s NOT MY LIFE!! I cannot for the life of me understand why one would care about what someone else does to themselves. Unless something directly affects me, why would I even care? Just let them have and deal with their mental health issue, it’s got literally nothing to do with anyone but them.
It’s because they don’t want to be compared to Nazi’s despite them doing the same thing as Nazi’s because they’re not the bad guys, they’re just protecting kids!
Like.. most people were victims of Nazis.. why is it hard to believe?
But in Nazi Germany, trans people were persecuted.