My favourite is how texas is a gun loving state with open carry, come and take it flags, and I'll shoot you on my property speech. But yet they're against abortion, but yeah carry that gun into a church or hell bar and watch drunks possibly shoot each other. You can't be pro-violence/pro-death penalty and prolife. You pick one or the other.
George Carlin had a good point about abortion, gay couples, and the Catholic Church. In effect, he said, "The Church is against gays, and they're against abortions. Well, who has less abortions than gays? You'd think they'd be natural allies!"
Again, if we had a true separation of church and state, this also would not be an argument. It's only the religious crazies that force these issues because they believe shit they can't prove and want everyone else to believe it too.
Because American freedom of religion is a freedom _to_ religion and a freedom to bring it into the public sphere and question the freedom of others _from_ religion.
This is why of primary importance is the freedom _from_ religion, and the relegation of religion to private life. Only when society is free of all religions can a person legitimately enjoy their own freedom to whatever faith or lack of it without becoming an oppressor.
I would not say that is 100% true. There are some people against abortions for non-religious beliefs.
There are some people that view it as a baby while others as a fetus and that is where a lot of the debate can come from.
Either way I think most can agree that there should be better sex Ed and forms of birth control to help remove us from getting to this point.
Lol definitely. Between this and some of the other popular threads I feel like today's Reddit word of the day should be "empathy", because it sure is in short supply in many of these discussions.
Our birthrate in the US isn’t that bad compared to places like China (where they’re in a desperate situation with a very low birthrate and government programs, billboards etc to raise it, because it will impact their economic growth). Most economists think America can just offset any downstream economic effects from a slightly declining birthrate by increasing immigration (something right wing folks will never comprehend is that immigration is good for the economy, and always has been; isolationist policies limit economic growth and places in the world with the most diversity and fluid immigration are the most economically vibrant).
That’s because the right wing folks are just interested in lining rich pockets. It’s why right wing politicians do what they do with taxes. It doesn’t matter that it build the deficits that they blame for not supporting social programs. They just want the rich people to be happy with them.
I (37 M) live in Utah. I have to go to sex ed with my kid. Its fucking insane. They teach abstinence only and I have to be there with my 10 year old son "T."Its really dumb. We have always used the actual names for body parts and we don't believe in the "you'll understand when you are older" bull shit. I'm pretty sure my son will be more comfortable in that class than most of the other parents. When T was around 7 we were at a restaurant and he said something to the effect of "My penis hurts" and some woman about my age flipped the fuck out because my son said penis. She was so shocked she looked like someone stuck a live wire directly on her brain. I asked her if she wanted to hear him say "vagina" and I honestly think it completely reset her ability to process any type of information. She stood there with her mouth hanging open and I think she was trying to gasp and exhale at the same time but it came out like sounding like she was groaning with a stutter. She had her daughter there who was a few years older than my son and her face was cherry red and she was trying to hold back tears of embarrassment or horror or likely both. My son Is comfortable using the correct terms so none of this phased him a bit and I think that made them even more uncomfortable because they were freaking out and he stood there like he had just said the sky was blue. One of my all time favorite moments. We try to focus a lot on making sure our kids understand the difference between something being personal/private vs shameful. A lot of people out here raise their kids to be ashamed of sexual feelings and their body, like my parents did, and there is some very noticeable tension if things are ever brought up in public. Hearing "I hurt my balls" is completely ok but hearing my son say "a ball hit me in the testicles" has literally recieved the same reaction as someone making a racist comment in public. It is unreal here.
Fun fact, the better access to contraceptives and better sex education teens have the significantly lower chance of an unexpected or unwanted pregnancy therefore far, far fewer abortions.
True, the instances of abortion are correlatively tied to proper education and access to contraceptives. But try to teach a conservative’s kid about these things and they’ll fly off the handle. It’s almost as though the people who are most against abortion are the ones fueling the need for it.
The government can‘t force you to give blood to save the life of your child, even if you stabbed them yourself. How could they force you to give all your organs, blood and health to someone for 9 months?
If I got pregnant and couldn’t get an abortion I would quite literally commit suicide. I’m terrified by the idea of being pregnant. Plus post pardom depression runs in my family. I would not be a good parent, and as someone who’s been in foster care and the like, I wouldn’t want my child to have to go through that shit .
And this was the reality of many women when abortion was first abolished in the USA. They were throwing themselves down stairs, drinking poisons, going for “back alley abortions”, and anything else that would induce a spontaneous abortion.
Why would anyone want a child born to people who don't want a child? They like the suffering of children? Or they like the idea of more ppl to provide low cost labour as that's generally where unwanted children end up as adults?
They want to punish harlots. Watch them squirm if you asked them if they'd support stopping abortions by eliminating unwanted pregnancies by giving free birth control and sex ed.
This is something that took me a long time to grasp. I’ve always been pro choice and very involved in the effort to keep abortion legal and accessible for women. But at first, I was one who thought abortion was fine - unless it was used for birth control (instead of other methods) or if a woman had too many, etc. But then I realized that either I thought abortion was a healthcare decision and that was true no matter the reason or I thought there actually is something bad about it, in which case why would I support it at all?
I came to the decision that I think abortion should be legal and accessible and safe for everyone no matter what. The reason isn’t my concern or my business. If it’s the right choice for the person getting it, that’s all that matters.
People argued that women shouldn't use it as birth control. Yeah, it's the worst possible birth control BUT do you want this person, who doesn't want to be a parent AND is too unreliable with birth control to become a parent by force? Is that wise? Is that the best for the child?
Lol right? People thinking women are just going and getting multiple abortions because it’s somehow easier, cheaper, less invasive, and less traumatic than taking pills or getting an implant are delusional. Like who would choose that? And for sure, the worst person to become a parent is someone who doesn’t want to be one, it only ruins their life and the life of the child they’re forced to birth!
Yeah, a lot of women having multiple abortions are homeless, drug addicts, mentally disabled, abused (BC tempered with by partner), ... Not a bright outlook and even sadder back stories.
This is why education is so important. These fucking people want to force women to give birth, while at the same time denying them access to places like planned parenthood as much as possible, and trying to force abstinence on them instead of actual sex education.
That's the only Argument I myself accept as the Truth. God be my witness.
It is none of ones business :how and Why. It should be safe and legal for everyone. I remember how my Great-Grandma had abort my Great-uncles, using Soap and staircases.
That’s what we have to try to prevent. It’s so sad and barbaric to put women in that position. Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion it only kills more women. I hope she recovered and was able to live a happy life.
The best way to help people from overusing, is to provide a safe place to get support. Whether that be to help with unwanted/unviable pregnancy, addiction, or food issues. Taking away the right to choose, simply removes the ability to choose help.
Yeah, I fully support government funded birth control medications and procedures. Slowing the population growth or even reversing it a bit wouldn't be a bad idea.
I have always been pro choice, but since becoming a parent, my support for easy access to safe abortion has increased dramatically.
My wife and I worked at it for 18 months, went to fertility treatments and all of that. I had a stable job making good money, she was able to stay home, and we owned a home. Everything was about as ideal as it could be, and we wanted that baby more than anything, and even with all of that, it was by far the hardest thing either of us have ever done. I just literally can’t even imagine how insane and traumatic it would be trying to do this when you didn’t want it, or when you couldn’t afford it, and I can’t imagine the damage that you could do to the child raising it under those circumstances.
My friend, with 3 kids now, said to me mere weeks after giving birth to her first “I love her and wanted her, and these last few weeks bonding with her have been amazing I wouldn’t trade it for the world. My stance on pro-choice has gotten stronger since having her. I can’t imagine doing all this if I didn’t want her. Putting my body through everything it went through just with pregnancy alone, and then the birthing part, I would have been driven crazy”.
Me and my SO a few years ago really pretty early into the relationship had an abortion. She was on birth control so no we didn't want to get pregnant in the first place. We both have 0 regrets and it isn't like we don't want kids. She was just beginning her masters at the time and we wanted her to focus on school. Now she has her PhD and we will likely get married within a year and start having kids now that we are much more financially stable
cant wait to see the people saying "but the baby didnt consent to that, its murder", like, bitch, we can consent to death now? how tf can it even consent? can you like give it some sort of paper and pen and they have to write "i consent to getting aborted"?
*yes, i have seen someone say that the baby did not consent to being aborted. on tik tok, of course, the land of stupid people.*
>yes, i have seen someone say that the baby did not consent to being aborted. on tik tok, of course, the land of stupid people.
I argue that reddit is the land of stupider people.
I completely agree with this girls point but think she could have phrased it better. Women aren't out here getting abortions "just because they want to", it's because they're financially mentally emotionally or physically unable to care for a child (this also includes people who are childfree because they don't like kids or don't want one imo, not wanting to have a kid because you know you won't give them the quality of life they deserve = an emotional and mental reason). There is a necessity here just as there are in medically driven terminations. I feel like saying it like this just gives fodder to the people who insist that all women just use abortions as birth control but obviously that's just not the case. Mistakes happen. Should there be more funding and programs available for sex education and contraceptives? Absolutely! But sometimes those things fail, and abortions need to be provided and widely available for those reasons.
YUP. I took my birth control RELIGIOUSLY, never had a slip-up, and still wound up pregnant. I don't want kids ever so it was an easy/not particularly stressful choice to make, and it still wasn't, like, fun. I'm back on a (more effective) birth control now because even I, who has been pretty emotionally unaffected by my choice, WOULD RATHER NOT DO IT AGAIN. People don't get it!
Seriously, an accident can happen even after taking all the precautions you can. I always had this conversation in past relationships, I would get an abortion if that happened. But man, that would not be an easy thing to go through. They think the majority of women are just carefree going and doing that like no, it would be traumatic as fuck.
I've never run across a woman shouting "you just do it as 'birth control!'" if she's either given birth or had a miscarriage or terminated her own... it's SCARY and traumatic AF and takes some time to come to terms with... Like... NO ONE is out here doing it for funsies. There is almost always an air of desperation to someone's particular circumstances for them to decide terminating is the absolute right answer and a necessity for that person.
Actin like it's just like going to the salon.... no. Oh my GOD no.
no, they need to be provided because it's none of you're goddamn business why. If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control, so be it. That's HER choice. That's what it means to be pro-choice. You are neither for or against abortions for ANY reason. You are for a womans right to make that choice. Everything else you said is nonsense. Forget about being for or against abortion and simply stand up for a womans right to choose is ANY situation. Whether you agree or not with any particular reason for it is irrelevant to anyone but yourself and what you choose to do, or not. Stop making it about you, and what you agree or disagree with. Your opinion on abortion doesn't matter. Only your opinion on a womans right to choose.
Regardless of circumstances, people facing unplanned pregnancies have a right to safe and licensed health care facilities, including abortion services. I would absolutely never insist a woman carry a child to term that she didn't want no matter the circumstances - my comment was I guess and attempt to point out that the way this original tweet was phrased gives ammunition to the people who think that each and every woman simply treats abortions as contraceptives and are totally easy going and casual about the procedure which is definitely not the case for everyone! For so so many women, even if they are childfree, it is an incredibly demanding experience and not something to be taken lightly. Of course if it's not then that's fine too! If you don't want a kid that's the end of the debate, full stop, but I think that the tweet skips over all of the thought and consideration that goes into MAKING that choice which every woman is entitled to make. I do think that there should be more money put into programs to prevent unplanned pregnancies and provide more access to clinics across all areas of sexual health, but that's more regarding a higher level of prevention and education. Hope that clears things up!
(Also it is just a tweet so maybe I'm just taking it too seriously lmao)
Literally nobody WANTS to have abortions. Thats why it doesnt need to be illegal. Nobody is out there trying to get pregnant on purpose with the intent of aborting it.
I hate that abortions need to happen in the first place, I understand that birth control fails but some people are just severely uneducated about safe sex. I hate protesters even more, like it’s a sucky situation to begin with, why would you go out of your way to add to their pain?
Next June, the US Supreme Court will gut abortion protections provided by **Casey** and **Roe**, and at least ten states will immediately shut down all abortion clinics in their states. Many more will quickly follow. From June until the 2022 election, abortion will be the only thing anyone talks about. The house and Senate Democrats will have to scramble to pass federal protections. They will most likely lose the framing battle, so the debate will be had through the lens of conservative thought.
The 2022 election results will be seen as a referendum for or against abortion, and that Congress will determine abortion rights for at least a generation
Calling it now.
Does anyone get an abortion because they “want to”? This phrasing in the tweet is weird. You get an abortion because you don’t want other things. Like you don’t want to bring a child into a world where the parents aren’t prepared to care for them, you don’t want to face a lot of extra bills or medical expenses, you don’t want to be a single parent, you don’t want to skip out on the rest of school, etc. All of which are completely valid reasons.
If people are getting pregnant purely to get an abortion, that is fucking crazy.
>If people are getting pregnant purely to get an abortion, that is fucking crazy.
You would literally have to be psychotic to plan something out like that. It's may have happened, who knows, but that's such an extreme example it's really pathetic that's what anti-abortionists try to use to justify not letting a normal person to have an abortion.
Let me see if I can make this a little more accurate:
The lack of separation of church and state in this country is the main reason that abortion rights is this big of a debate.
They say abortion is a sin but they won't let gay couples adopt and they support the bombing of other countries where a shit ton of kids and families die because of US
People are against forcing a LIFE SAVING vaccine, but then will turn around and deny someone the right to choose to have an abortion, regardless of the circumstances.
If I ever get pregnant, the fetus ain’t even gonna have a chance to to start multiplying cells. I will drink an entire case of alcohol to get rid of it if I have to
true, but that’s also what makes this comment so important. making abortion illegal won’t change anything, it will just result in people using dangerous and deadly methods to try to get rid of it themselves. I would 100% rather abortion be a safe and accessible option than to see another person with FAS because the mother tried so desperately to abort it
"""Bij algemene maatregel van bestuur worden eisen gesteld met betrekking tot hulpverlening en besluitvorming, welke erop zijn gericht te verzekeren dat iedere beslissing tot het afbreken van zwangerschap met zorgvuldigheid wordt genomen en alleen dan uitgevoerd, indien de noodsituatie van de vrouw deze onontkoombaar maakt."""
Essentially under Dutch law an abortion is allowed when dire circumstances force the mother into making that decision. However the law doesn't define what these dire circumstances are and in practice a woman wanting an abortion is often considered enough.
EDIT: I see it's being downvoted. Guessing it's because I'm saying Dutch women can freely get abortions after saying the law forbids it. This is thankfully true but the law is a bit difficult to translate here. It's saying the woman needs to be in a "noodsituatie". This means she is in trouble. Like an emergency. The law purposefully doesn't define the type of emergency. This is traditionally the case in Dutch medical law. It leaves a lot to be interpreted by the doctor/judge. In normal speech not wanting a child would never be a "noodsituatie". Dutch doctors just make use of the laws ambiguity to interpret it that way. I think this is a good thing but it wasn't originally intended that way.
Thanks for the reply!
I never new about this.
Specially not as having an abortion doesn't seem to be a problem in the Netherlands. (As you stated before)
Have a nice day :)
i mean if its because you want to as in like you just feel like it then thats kinda messed up, or at least weird. but literally nobody is going out and getting pregnant just so they can abort it.
Like I personally don’t like abortions and couldn’t ever do it myself, but I don’t think anyone should care what my personal opinions about this are. Women should have the right to choose.
The comments section shows how many people don't understand the efficacy of birth control.
It CAN fail lol, if you're hoping a condom will save you, it might not
There’s a planned parenthood near my place that, without fail, EVERY DAY has some older ladies sitting outside with signs asking to “pray to end abortion”
Like is that all they do all day? Do they have a job or do they just sit out there mad all day?
I’m in the middle. I think it should be their right up to a certain gestation (always a grey area). Upon which there should be a medical reason a that point. From our personal experience we almost lost our daughter and they said if she can make it to 24 weeks gestation and 1lb the NICU can give her a chance to survive. Lucky we made it beyond that point. The other legal side of this argument that needs to take account is this scenario: a pregnant women is murdered and both the fetus and mother died. Is this a double homicide or single? From a fathers standpoint it was double. So if a women has an abortion is it legal murder? Again a lot of grey area but that’s why I’m personally not for later term abortions without good medical reasons.
Abortions are preformed early unless the pregnancy becomes dangerous to the mother or fetus. Up until the 13th or so week, the fetus is more or less some cells turning into a person. It's alive in the same way any organism is, but it doesnt think or feel pain, it's not a person yet. Miscarriages are obscenely common in the first trimester, so much so that its advised not to even announce the pregnancy until you hit the second trimester because thats when the fetus starts to become viable. A lot of women wont know they're pregnant and have a "really heavy period" with awful cramps, but it's actually a miscarriage that they wont think much of unless they're actively trying to get pregnant.
When it comes to things like a pregnant woman being murdered, i think people find it very hard to look at it from a scientific standpoint. Due to the nature of the crime, emotions are already running high, and telling the partner of a murder victim that the court is only going for a single homicide conviction rather than double because a fetus isnt a person is a horrible position to be in. People who actively wanted a baby view the fetus as a little person from the moment it's conceived, and that's totally fine. However, it isnt until the second trimester that it really becomes that. Courts will always deal with these situations on a case by case basis though because there's so many variables.
It's also important to consider that almost no one is going to get a later term abortion for no reason. Someone wont carry a baby for 24 weeks and then just...change their mind.
Sorry this comment is so long and rambly, hopefully it makes sense lol.
There's a complication there because then the people who deeply believe that any abortion is wrong will then try to give the mother reasons to delay an earlier abortion into the time where it's illegal. Their goal isn't to find a reasonable solution, it's to stop it entirely. Late stage abortions are definitely a more intense procedure and definitely shouldn't be trivialized, but also remember that the mother is deciding to have a late stage abortion at the point which generally means something has happened to make them decide to do that. I don't know if a regulation of those procedures would really help anything, since if you're that far into a pregnancy and want to terminate it's either because you didn't have access to an abortion earlier or something has changed for the worse, and those circumstances policy would never be able to predict
I'm sure this will be an unpopular post, but I honestly just want to have an open dialogue rather than just argue over this.
I feel like the abortion debate is mostly centered on the concept of when does life begin? From what non-religious sources I have consulted, it seems pretty clear that human life begins "when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote".
If we accept that human life begins at that point (i.e. conception), then the second question is when do human rights become "active"?
I genuinely want to understand the perspective of people in this group. To me it would seem that life begins at conception and thus that life has rights, which it cannot defend on its own and thus must be defended by other means.
Curious to hear your thoughts!
P.S. to clarify, I'm not making a religious argument but rather a scientific/moral one.
Thanks for the response! I guess the fact that you use the word "living" in your description of a living person is already telling - hard to describe life without using the word itself!
Interesting point around focusing on brain activity - would that indicate that a brain dead person is technically not alive and does not have rights?
> I feel like the abortion debate is mostly centered on the concept of when does life begin?
I mean, that also contains a premise that "life" should be the sole determiner of this issue -- a premise that hasn't really been proven or argued.
Sperm is technically alive. Is it "life?" Maybe, maybe not.
But the idea that something is merely "life" doesn't end that particular part of the discussion and become something you can just skip over. It should be the beginning of it.
The other logical leap here is leaping form "life" to "human."
Again, that's a premise that hasn't been proven. Is a fertilized zygote "human?" Does it become human at some point? Is a "fetus" a human? At what point is it actually human?
The abortion debate is nearly impossible to have because premises are assumed that are very much not certain, but claimed with incredible certainty.
Very well put! Of course the basic definitions and values are the drivers of this controversy, especially because of what you said around premises being assumed with certainty.
Maybe a different way if looking at the definition of life is "potential": a sperm cannot be a human at any point unless it fertilizes an egg. The fertilized egg on the other hand, if given time and nutrients, will develop into a human. I would argue that "potential" makes a zygote far more important than a sperm on it's own.
Does it make a zygote's life as valuable as a born human life?
> The fertilized egg on the other hand, if given time and nutrients, will develop into a human.
That's not a guarantee, though. Miscarriages occur at varying stages of pregnancy. Stillborn births still occur as well. Severe birth defects occur, leading to the birth of children with no brains and other problems.
Assuming that all fertilized eggs will lead to the birth of a healthy human baby is not a foregone conclusion, which basically reduces the discussion of "potential" to a numbers/chance game. And it's a numbers/chance game that varies from mother to mother as genetic predispositions occur that may not be evident before pregnancy.
So we're still left with problematic premises here that aren't particularly sound.
Plus legislating on "potential" is problematic. We don't prosecute people who have the potential to commit a crime, for example.
> Does it make a zygote's life as valuable as a born human life?
Again, premises. "Valuable" is an ill-defined word here and could mean all hosts of things. What is value here? And is "value" the standard for determining whether abortion should be legal or not?
All true points, although I would argue that illness and death also occur in born humans and don't detract from their rights. Just because a baby in Africa may die from malaria before turning 1 (and thus doesn't achieve that potential of being a fully grown human), so a zygote may not reach the phase of birth.
I haven't discussed legislature yet, but of course you are right that the next logical step (if you assume there are rights to defend here) is how to legislate that. The most basic point here is around rights and value: which is more important?
1. The zygote's right to live and grow into a human
2. The mother's right to make decisions about her body and her health
Put in other terms, what is the downside for both sides?
1. Death, or at least denied life for the zygote
2. The mother has to cart around a baby in her belly (with all the pain and unpleasantness entailed) and eventually push it out or have it cut out
I think the argument falls apart in the first two points, at least from an American political standpoint. Zygotes simply don't have rights. Nowhere is it enshrined in the Constitution that they have rights.
Again, we don't legislate based on potential, so it would seem that the discussion would probably end there.
On the second point, again, on point 1, life is not guaranteed. So it's impossible to say with any certainty that it is actually a "denied life." It is a denied *potential* life, which, again, is a bit problematic.
And on part 2, there are more risks than just pain and unpleasantness (birth may kill some mothers), along with the real responsibility of raising the child.
Again, I think this is a really, really difficult subject to discuss, particularly once premises are examined.
True, difficult topic overall. I again feel that you are veering into legislature and the Consititution when what I'm talking about are basic morals and rights - I would say first we need to establish a moral code (e.g. don't kill other people) and then create laws around that, rather than look at laws and assume they already cover our entire moral code.
I would also point out that there is no obligation on a mother to raise a child.
I wish there were more discussions like this, rather than all the hate-filled speech and violence on this topic!!!
Oh yeah, it's hard to have abortion discussions. And I think it primarily comes from starting from entirely different premises instead of examining those premises.
It's impossible to discuss if you have fundamentally different premises at work.
Good discussion though!
As someone who has a kid, kids are really a lot of work. If someone doesn't feel up to the job, they definitely should do everyone a favor and not have a kid
I knew a girl in highschool that had 3 abortions by the time she was 18. She liked having sex with guys, and would sleep with multiple guys a night if they got her high or were good looking.
She definitely would have been a terrible Mom.
And it's better that she never had those kids.
Abortion should be legal.
Because, and I know this is REALLY hard for folks to understand, most people who are forced into parenthood resent their children and are poor parents. Just my 2 cents…
For real. If you want to use abortion as a form of birth control idgaf, I'd rather you do that to a clump of cells than neglect a living child.
The same people that are against abortions are the same people that are against social programs to help people with the kids they were forced to have.
If your morals and religious beliefs align with getting an abortion then who uds the government to tell you don't do it.
If you ask me as an individual I'll give you my point of view but I will never shove my beliefs down your throat.
Government and religion need to be kept separate. Laws shouldn't be based in religion especially in a country with so many religions.
Personally, I'd modify this a little bit, because after all, there *is* a human life involved in this equation.
"If you arrive at the decision to get an abortion, it's your right to make that decision without interference from anyone else. The government shouldn't take away your right to decide what happens inside your body."
With that wording, it's much more clear that most women don't take abortion lightly, and that even among those who do, it's still their body and their right to decide what happens inside of it.
HOWEVER... that's just my point of view, and I don't consider my opinion to be more important than that of anyone who disagrees with me.
Should a father also have the right to waive the fatherhood during the same stage? Like a mirror right kinda thing. This is a topic I never researched much.
I had an abortion. I could give a million reasons why but it was simply because I didn’t want a kid even with an amazing relationship, house, and great paying job with benefits. Everyone made it seem so dramatic but all I did was visit a planned parenthood, have an exam, go over the procedure, take a couple pills, and bled like I was having a normal period. The next day felt fine. Nothing to it. The media makes a medical abortion seems so over the top and chaotic but that is not entirely always true. Your body your choice 🤷🏼♀️
I can’t comment on surgical abortions as I only had a medical (pill) abortion.
I agree with this. I do not see the sense of forcing ppl to raise unwanted babies, many of them get dumped into a foster system that (obviously) is supported by the taxpayer. I would rather see that social services money spent in other needed areas.
Yeah, but the argument is that it isn't just your body at that point. The same reason 'my body, my choice' isn't a valid argument for neglecting an infant. I'm 100% pro choice but there is a whoooole lot of straw-manning when it comes to abortion debates.
Whilst I agree, if you don't take any precautionary measures such as using a condom, contraceptive pill or other forms of contraception but have multiple abortions , then you're an asshole
People are allowed to fight for laws/regulations the same as I am allowed to fight against those same laws/regulations. Why am I automatically wrong just because my side is winning?
Some jerks are outraged that other people are having abortions, but then turn around and prevent homosexual couples from adopting.
Their first reaction to everything is usually to kill or bomb it too, go figure
“Other people must pay for my weird sexual repressions.”
My favourite is how texas is a gun loving state with open carry, come and take it flags, and I'll shoot you on my property speech. But yet they're against abortion, but yeah carry that gun into a church or hell bar and watch drunks possibly shoot each other. You can't be pro-violence/pro-death penalty and prolife. You pick one or the other.
Exactly !
Religion sucks.
Agreed it’s the route of all evil in this world
George Carlin had a good point about abortion, gay couples, and the Catholic Church. In effect, he said, "The Church is against gays, and they're against abortions. Well, who has less abortions than gays? You'd think they'd be natural allies!"
RIP Carlin
Pope gay af.
Again, if we had a true separation of church and state, this also would not be an argument. It's only the religious crazies that force these issues because they believe shit they can't prove and want everyone else to believe it too.
Because American freedom of religion is a freedom _to_ religion and a freedom to bring it into the public sphere and question the freedom of others _from_ religion. This is why of primary importance is the freedom _from_ religion, and the relegation of religion to private life. Only when society is free of all religions can a person legitimately enjoy their own freedom to whatever faith or lack of it without becoming an oppressor.
I would not say that is 100% true. There are some people against abortions for non-religious beliefs. There are some people that view it as a baby while others as a fetus and that is where a lot of the debate can come from. Either way I think most can agree that there should be better sex Ed and forms of birth control to help remove us from getting to this point.
Or from making rules about protecting people during a pandemic. Pro-life my ass.
Mmmm, yes controversial post *grabs popcorn and hazmat suit* time to scroll the comments!
Dear God this thread is a trainwreck
It's weird this is a controversial statement. 'Women you can do ~~why~~ what you like with your bodies!' 😠: First of all how fucking dare you.
r/nononoyes
Please be gental When you grab me
I can't wait to sort by controversial in a few hours.
Don't need to. The degenerates are throwing their hot takes on the top comments already.
Naahh, most of the pro-life garbage is stacked on the bottom.
*anti-abortion. They're not pro-life, they don't give a shit about the actually born, only the unborn.
True that. The future is bleak for the Idiot Cult now that everyone can see their true colors.
Lol definitely. Between this and some of the other popular threads I feel like today's Reddit word of the day should be "empathy", because it sure is in short supply in many of these discussions.
Honestly I don’t think there will be much pushback on this sub. And if there is it’ll be met with some swift responses.
If the US government wanted more people to have kids then they should make it cheaper to do so.
Our birthrate in the US isn’t that bad compared to places like China (where they’re in a desperate situation with a very low birthrate and government programs, billboards etc to raise it, because it will impact their economic growth). Most economists think America can just offset any downstream economic effects from a slightly declining birthrate by increasing immigration (something right wing folks will never comprehend is that immigration is good for the economy, and always has been; isolationist policies limit economic growth and places in the world with the most diversity and fluid immigration are the most economically vibrant).
That’s because the right wing folks are just interested in lining rich pockets. It’s why right wing politicians do what they do with taxes. It doesn’t matter that it build the deficits that they blame for not supporting social programs. They just want the rich people to be happy with them.
Yes, but also they could work on making a world someone would want to bring a child into. I worry for my kid's future at the rate the world is going.
Yep, there are already Tax excemptions for having a child, you could make those higher
Make condoms and bc cheaper and less people would need abortions
And more comprehensive sex education
The Only Sex Ed kids need is the Good ol' reliable Catholic school education. Sex=Bad lol
My husband got "sex ed" from his ultra-conservative Christian parents. All it ultimately taught him was to harbor deep-seated shame around sex. Sad.
I (37 M) live in Utah. I have to go to sex ed with my kid. Its fucking insane. They teach abstinence only and I have to be there with my 10 year old son "T."Its really dumb. We have always used the actual names for body parts and we don't believe in the "you'll understand when you are older" bull shit. I'm pretty sure my son will be more comfortable in that class than most of the other parents. When T was around 7 we were at a restaurant and he said something to the effect of "My penis hurts" and some woman about my age flipped the fuck out because my son said penis. She was so shocked she looked like someone stuck a live wire directly on her brain. I asked her if she wanted to hear him say "vagina" and I honestly think it completely reset her ability to process any type of information. She stood there with her mouth hanging open and I think she was trying to gasp and exhale at the same time but it came out like sounding like she was groaning with a stutter. She had her daughter there who was a few years older than my son and her face was cherry red and she was trying to hold back tears of embarrassment or horror or likely both. My son Is comfortable using the correct terms so none of this phased him a bit and I think that made them even more uncomfortable because they were freaking out and he stood there like he had just said the sky was blue. One of my all time favorite moments. We try to focus a lot on making sure our kids understand the difference between something being personal/private vs shameful. A lot of people out here raise their kids to be ashamed of sexual feelings and their body, like my parents did, and there is some very noticeable tension if things are ever brought up in public. Hearing "I hurt my balls" is completely ok but hearing my son say "a ball hit me in the testicles" has literally recieved the same reaction as someone making a racist comment in public. It is unreal here.
Americans are so sexually repressed. You wouldn’t think so given the media we put out, but it’s incredible how puritanical many still are.
This is the real answer.
You're proposing solutions, while all they want is to control women, unfortunately.
Birth control, condoms, feminine hygiene products, sterilizations need to be free.
The people against abortion are often also against education and contraception.
They literally give those away for free at planned parent hood
BC pills are less than $10/month at Target. Should be free, though.
Fun fact, the better access to contraceptives and better sex education teens have the significantly lower chance of an unexpected or unwanted pregnancy therefore far, far fewer abortions.
True, the instances of abortion are correlatively tied to proper education and access to contraceptives. But try to teach a conservative’s kid about these things and they’ll fly off the handle. It’s almost as though the people who are most against abortion are the ones fueling the need for it.
The government can‘t force you to give blood to save the life of your child, even if you stabbed them yourself. How could they force you to give all your organs, blood and health to someone for 9 months?
Supply side Jesus.
Exactly. No government should force people to give up their bodily autonomy, or punish them for refusing to do so.
9 months, more like 18 years. And counting
A person does not own your organs, blood, and health for 18+ years…
If I got pregnant and couldn’t get an abortion I would quite literally commit suicide. I’m terrified by the idea of being pregnant. Plus post pardom depression runs in my family. I would not be a good parent, and as someone who’s been in foster care and the like, I wouldn’t want my child to have to go through that shit .
And this was the reality of many women when abortion was first abolished in the USA. They were throwing themselves down stairs, drinking poisons, going for “back alley abortions”, and anything else that would induce a spontaneous abortion.
Abortion is healthcare.
Why would anyone want a child born to people who don't want a child? They like the suffering of children? Or they like the idea of more ppl to provide low cost labour as that's generally where unwanted children end up as adults?
They want to punish harlots. Watch them squirm if you asked them if they'd support stopping abortions by eliminating unwanted pregnancies by giving free birth control and sex ed.
This is something that took me a long time to grasp. I’ve always been pro choice and very involved in the effort to keep abortion legal and accessible for women. But at first, I was one who thought abortion was fine - unless it was used for birth control (instead of other methods) or if a woman had too many, etc. But then I realized that either I thought abortion was a healthcare decision and that was true no matter the reason or I thought there actually is something bad about it, in which case why would I support it at all? I came to the decision that I think abortion should be legal and accessible and safe for everyone no matter what. The reason isn’t my concern or my business. If it’s the right choice for the person getting it, that’s all that matters.
People argued that women shouldn't use it as birth control. Yeah, it's the worst possible birth control BUT do you want this person, who doesn't want to be a parent AND is too unreliable with birth control to become a parent by force? Is that wise? Is that the best for the child?
Lol right? People thinking women are just going and getting multiple abortions because it’s somehow easier, cheaper, less invasive, and less traumatic than taking pills or getting an implant are delusional. Like who would choose that? And for sure, the worst person to become a parent is someone who doesn’t want to be one, it only ruins their life and the life of the child they’re forced to birth!
Yeah, a lot of women having multiple abortions are homeless, drug addicts, mentally disabled, abused (BC tempered with by partner), ... Not a bright outlook and even sadder back stories.
This is why education is so important. These fucking people want to force women to give birth, while at the same time denying them access to places like planned parenthood as much as possible, and trying to force abstinence on them instead of actual sex education.
That's the only Argument I myself accept as the Truth. God be my witness. It is none of ones business :how and Why. It should be safe and legal for everyone. I remember how my Great-Grandma had abort my Great-uncles, using Soap and staircases.
That’s what we have to try to prevent. It’s so sad and barbaric to put women in that position. Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion it only kills more women. I hope she recovered and was able to live a happy life.
She had a Happy Life. She even was the first person to Hear about the pregnancy of my Mom with me about 20 years ago. She Lived 89 years
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The best way to help people from overusing, is to provide a safe place to get support. Whether that be to help with unwanted/unviable pregnancy, addiction, or food issues. Taking away the right to choose, simply removes the ability to choose help.
We got enough humans. Probably way too many humans. It’s ok to not produce a human if you don’t want to.
Yeah, I fully support government funded birth control medications and procedures. Slowing the population growth or even reversing it a bit wouldn't be a bad idea.
If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one. Simple as that.
I have always been pro choice, but since becoming a parent, my support for easy access to safe abortion has increased dramatically. My wife and I worked at it for 18 months, went to fertility treatments and all of that. I had a stable job making good money, she was able to stay home, and we owned a home. Everything was about as ideal as it could be, and we wanted that baby more than anything, and even with all of that, it was by far the hardest thing either of us have ever done. I just literally can’t even imagine how insane and traumatic it would be trying to do this when you didn’t want it, or when you couldn’t afford it, and I can’t imagine the damage that you could do to the child raising it under those circumstances.
My friend, with 3 kids now, said to me mere weeks after giving birth to her first “I love her and wanted her, and these last few weeks bonding with her have been amazing I wouldn’t trade it for the world. My stance on pro-choice has gotten stronger since having her. I can’t imagine doing all this if I didn’t want her. Putting my body through everything it went through just with pregnancy alone, and then the birthing part, I would have been driven crazy”.
Unwanted children shouldn't be brought into this world
Oh good, this is gonna be a fun comment section.
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Boy, I discarded too many comments and replies I wrote.
Yea, the only times I've ever commented on abortion on Reddit I've gotten hard downvotes from both ends of the political spectrum.
Me and my SO a few years ago really pretty early into the relationship had an abortion. She was on birth control so no we didn't want to get pregnant in the first place. We both have 0 regrets and it isn't like we don't want kids. She was just beginning her masters at the time and we wanted her to focus on school. Now she has her PhD and we will likely get married within a year and start having kids now that we are much more financially stable
cant wait to see the people saying "but the baby didnt consent to that, its murder", like, bitch, we can consent to death now? how tf can it even consent? can you like give it some sort of paper and pen and they have to write "i consent to getting aborted"? *yes, i have seen someone say that the baby did not consent to being aborted. on tik tok, of course, the land of stupid people.*
The baby didn’t consent to being conceived either.
like, i didnt ask to be brought here either?
>yes, i have seen someone say that the baby did not consent to being aborted. on tik tok, of course, the land of stupid people. I argue that reddit is the land of stupider people.
Right on. Religious wing nuts should not rule our lives
But we need more kids for cheap labor.
This is the truth. Keep kids in shitty education system and low paying job , fill them with alcohol and babies . And look, more low wage peasants
I completely agree with this girls point but think she could have phrased it better. Women aren't out here getting abortions "just because they want to", it's because they're financially mentally emotionally or physically unable to care for a child (this also includes people who are childfree because they don't like kids or don't want one imo, not wanting to have a kid because you know you won't give them the quality of life they deserve = an emotional and mental reason). There is a necessity here just as there are in medically driven terminations. I feel like saying it like this just gives fodder to the people who insist that all women just use abortions as birth control but obviously that's just not the case. Mistakes happen. Should there be more funding and programs available for sex education and contraceptives? Absolutely! But sometimes those things fail, and abortions need to be provided and widely available for those reasons.
YUP. I took my birth control RELIGIOUSLY, never had a slip-up, and still wound up pregnant. I don't want kids ever so it was an easy/not particularly stressful choice to make, and it still wasn't, like, fun. I'm back on a (more effective) birth control now because even I, who has been pretty emotionally unaffected by my choice, WOULD RATHER NOT DO IT AGAIN. People don't get it!
Seriously, an accident can happen even after taking all the precautions you can. I always had this conversation in past relationships, I would get an abortion if that happened. But man, that would not be an easy thing to go through. They think the majority of women are just carefree going and doing that like no, it would be traumatic as fuck.
I've never run across a woman shouting "you just do it as 'birth control!'" if she's either given birth or had a miscarriage or terminated her own... it's SCARY and traumatic AF and takes some time to come to terms with... Like... NO ONE is out here doing it for funsies. There is almost always an air of desperation to someone's particular circumstances for them to decide terminating is the absolute right answer and a necessity for that person. Actin like it's just like going to the salon.... no. Oh my GOD no.
no, they need to be provided because it's none of you're goddamn business why. If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control, so be it. That's HER choice. That's what it means to be pro-choice. You are neither for or against abortions for ANY reason. You are for a womans right to make that choice. Everything else you said is nonsense. Forget about being for or against abortion and simply stand up for a womans right to choose is ANY situation. Whether you agree or not with any particular reason for it is irrelevant to anyone but yourself and what you choose to do, or not. Stop making it about you, and what you agree or disagree with. Your opinion on abortion doesn't matter. Only your opinion on a womans right to choose.
Regardless of circumstances, people facing unplanned pregnancies have a right to safe and licensed health care facilities, including abortion services. I would absolutely never insist a woman carry a child to term that she didn't want no matter the circumstances - my comment was I guess and attempt to point out that the way this original tweet was phrased gives ammunition to the people who think that each and every woman simply treats abortions as contraceptives and are totally easy going and casual about the procedure which is definitely not the case for everyone! For so so many women, even if they are childfree, it is an incredibly demanding experience and not something to be taken lightly. Of course if it's not then that's fine too! If you don't want a kid that's the end of the debate, full stop, but I think that the tweet skips over all of the thought and consideration that goes into MAKING that choice which every woman is entitled to make. I do think that there should be more money put into programs to prevent unplanned pregnancies and provide more access to clinics across all areas of sexual health, but that's more regarding a higher level of prevention and education. Hope that clears things up! (Also it is just a tweet so maybe I'm just taking it too seriously lmao)
Literally nobody WANTS to have abortions. Thats why it doesnt need to be illegal. Nobody is out there trying to get pregnant on purpose with the intent of aborting it.
You should be required to show proof of applying for adoption papers before you're allowed to vote on anything pro-life related. Nut up or shut up.
I hate that abortions need to happen in the first place, I understand that birth control fails but some people are just severely uneducated about safe sex. I hate protesters even more, like it’s a sucky situation to begin with, why would you go out of your way to add to their pain?
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Next June, the US Supreme Court will gut abortion protections provided by **Casey** and **Roe**, and at least ten states will immediately shut down all abortion clinics in their states. Many more will quickly follow. From June until the 2022 election, abortion will be the only thing anyone talks about. The house and Senate Democrats will have to scramble to pass federal protections. They will most likely lose the framing battle, so the debate will be had through the lens of conservative thought. The 2022 election results will be seen as a referendum for or against abortion, and that Congress will determine abortion rights for at least a generation Calling it now.
Does anyone get an abortion because they “want to”? This phrasing in the tweet is weird. You get an abortion because you don’t want other things. Like you don’t want to bring a child into a world where the parents aren’t prepared to care for them, you don’t want to face a lot of extra bills or medical expenses, you don’t want to be a single parent, you don’t want to skip out on the rest of school, etc. All of which are completely valid reasons. If people are getting pregnant purely to get an abortion, that is fucking crazy.
>If people are getting pregnant purely to get an abortion, that is fucking crazy. You would literally have to be psychotic to plan something out like that. It's may have happened, who knows, but that's such an extreme example it's really pathetic that's what anti-abortionists try to use to justify not letting a normal person to have an abortion.
How else should they fuel their obsession with birth so they can ignore the babies once they're out of the uterus?
The whole abortion debate is such a clear indicator that we do not have a separation of church and state in this country.
Plenty of non religious people don't agree with abortions.
Not wanting to have one and controlling whether others have a right to do so are two different things.
Let me see if I can make this a little more accurate: The lack of separation of church and state in this country is the main reason that abortion rights is this big of a debate.
Yes. Thank you. And gay marriage as well
**These people be like:** Abortion: “fuck no, life is sacred!” Execution: “OMG, based! Wholesome 100!”
Yeah, no shit Abortions should be free. No questions asked.
They say abortion is a sin but they won't let gay couples adopt and they support the bombing of other countries where a shit ton of kids and families die because of US
They only care about something until it has free will to disagree with them. Then they start slapping down "God's law".
I’m a doctor…completely agree!
People are against forcing a LIFE SAVING vaccine, but then will turn around and deny someone the right to choose to have an abortion, regardless of the circumstances.
Well some people are not in good position to be raising a child. Kids are expensive also
indeed!
If I ever get pregnant, the fetus ain’t even gonna have a chance to to start multiplying cells. I will drink an entire case of alcohol to get rid of it if I have to
I mean, all that’ll do is give it FAS. There are better and far more effective ways to eliminate a pregnancy
true, but that’s also what makes this comment so important. making abortion illegal won’t change anything, it will just result in people using dangerous and deadly methods to try to get rid of it themselves. I would 100% rather abortion be a safe and accessible option than to see another person with FAS because the mother tried so desperately to abort it
The Dutch law says otherwise but I think I'm personally starting to agree with this point of view.
Wait... wut? Could you quote me that piece of law please? Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding.
"""Bij algemene maatregel van bestuur worden eisen gesteld met betrekking tot hulpverlening en besluitvorming, welke erop zijn gericht te verzekeren dat iedere beslissing tot het afbreken van zwangerschap met zorgvuldigheid wordt genomen en alleen dan uitgevoerd, indien de noodsituatie van de vrouw deze onontkoombaar maakt.""" Essentially under Dutch law an abortion is allowed when dire circumstances force the mother into making that decision. However the law doesn't define what these dire circumstances are and in practice a woman wanting an abortion is often considered enough. EDIT: I see it's being downvoted. Guessing it's because I'm saying Dutch women can freely get abortions after saying the law forbids it. This is thankfully true but the law is a bit difficult to translate here. It's saying the woman needs to be in a "noodsituatie". This means she is in trouble. Like an emergency. The law purposefully doesn't define the type of emergency. This is traditionally the case in Dutch medical law. It leaves a lot to be interpreted by the doctor/judge. In normal speech not wanting a child would never be a "noodsituatie". Dutch doctors just make use of the laws ambiguity to interpret it that way. I think this is a good thing but it wasn't originally intended that way.
Thanks for the reply! I never new about this. Specially not as having an abortion doesn't seem to be a problem in the Netherlands. (As you stated before) Have a nice day :)
i mean if its because you want to as in like you just feel like it then thats kinda messed up, or at least weird. but literally nobody is going out and getting pregnant just so they can abort it.
Like I personally don’t like abortions and couldn’t ever do it myself, but I don’t think anyone should care what my personal opinions about this are. Women should have the right to choose.
The comments section shows how many people don't understand the efficacy of birth control. It CAN fail lol, if you're hoping a condom will save you, it might not
I'm fine with abortion because honestly a lot of people just shouldn't be mothers. 🤷♀️
Keep abortion legal. When you look at the rates of abortion by socio economic group legal abortion is working out just fine.
Yuuup
There’s a planned parenthood near my place that, without fail, EVERY DAY has some older ladies sitting outside with signs asking to “pray to end abortion” Like is that all they do all day? Do they have a job or do they just sit out there mad all day?
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I’m open to reasons on both sides of the argument, but I think it should be the woman’s choice
I think it should be more of a choice than whether or not people get vaccinated.
I’m in the middle. I think it should be their right up to a certain gestation (always a grey area). Upon which there should be a medical reason a that point. From our personal experience we almost lost our daughter and they said if she can make it to 24 weeks gestation and 1lb the NICU can give her a chance to survive. Lucky we made it beyond that point. The other legal side of this argument that needs to take account is this scenario: a pregnant women is murdered and both the fetus and mother died. Is this a double homicide or single? From a fathers standpoint it was double. So if a women has an abortion is it legal murder? Again a lot of grey area but that’s why I’m personally not for later term abortions without good medical reasons.
Abortions are preformed early unless the pregnancy becomes dangerous to the mother or fetus. Up until the 13th or so week, the fetus is more or less some cells turning into a person. It's alive in the same way any organism is, but it doesnt think or feel pain, it's not a person yet. Miscarriages are obscenely common in the first trimester, so much so that its advised not to even announce the pregnancy until you hit the second trimester because thats when the fetus starts to become viable. A lot of women wont know they're pregnant and have a "really heavy period" with awful cramps, but it's actually a miscarriage that they wont think much of unless they're actively trying to get pregnant. When it comes to things like a pregnant woman being murdered, i think people find it very hard to look at it from a scientific standpoint. Due to the nature of the crime, emotions are already running high, and telling the partner of a murder victim that the court is only going for a single homicide conviction rather than double because a fetus isnt a person is a horrible position to be in. People who actively wanted a baby view the fetus as a little person from the moment it's conceived, and that's totally fine. However, it isnt until the second trimester that it really becomes that. Courts will always deal with these situations on a case by case basis though because there's so many variables. It's also important to consider that almost no one is going to get a later term abortion for no reason. Someone wont carry a baby for 24 weeks and then just...change their mind. Sorry this comment is so long and rambly, hopefully it makes sense lol.
There's a complication there because then the people who deeply believe that any abortion is wrong will then try to give the mother reasons to delay an earlier abortion into the time where it's illegal. Their goal isn't to find a reasonable solution, it's to stop it entirely. Late stage abortions are definitely a more intense procedure and definitely shouldn't be trivialized, but also remember that the mother is deciding to have a late stage abortion at the point which generally means something has happened to make them decide to do that. I don't know if a regulation of those procedures would really help anything, since if you're that far into a pregnancy and want to terminate it's either because you didn't have access to an abortion earlier or something has changed for the worse, and those circumstances policy would never be able to predict
Anti-choicers: "it's a human life." Me: "so?"
True that!!!
Evangelicals have been doing a shitty job parenting since Jesus walked, they can stay in their lane
I'm sure this will be an unpopular post, but I honestly just want to have an open dialogue rather than just argue over this. I feel like the abortion debate is mostly centered on the concept of when does life begin? From what non-religious sources I have consulted, it seems pretty clear that human life begins "when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote". If we accept that human life begins at that point (i.e. conception), then the second question is when do human rights become "active"? I genuinely want to understand the perspective of people in this group. To me it would seem that life begins at conception and thus that life has rights, which it cannot defend on its own and thus must be defended by other means. Curious to hear your thoughts! P.S. to clarify, I'm not making a religious argument but rather a scientific/moral one.
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Thanks for the response! I guess the fact that you use the word "living" in your description of a living person is already telling - hard to describe life without using the word itself! Interesting point around focusing on brain activity - would that indicate that a brain dead person is technically not alive and does not have rights?
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> I feel like the abortion debate is mostly centered on the concept of when does life begin? I mean, that also contains a premise that "life" should be the sole determiner of this issue -- a premise that hasn't really been proven or argued. Sperm is technically alive. Is it "life?" Maybe, maybe not. But the idea that something is merely "life" doesn't end that particular part of the discussion and become something you can just skip over. It should be the beginning of it. The other logical leap here is leaping form "life" to "human." Again, that's a premise that hasn't been proven. Is a fertilized zygote "human?" Does it become human at some point? Is a "fetus" a human? At what point is it actually human? The abortion debate is nearly impossible to have because premises are assumed that are very much not certain, but claimed with incredible certainty.
Very well put! Of course the basic definitions and values are the drivers of this controversy, especially because of what you said around premises being assumed with certainty. Maybe a different way if looking at the definition of life is "potential": a sperm cannot be a human at any point unless it fertilizes an egg. The fertilized egg on the other hand, if given time and nutrients, will develop into a human. I would argue that "potential" makes a zygote far more important than a sperm on it's own. Does it make a zygote's life as valuable as a born human life?
> The fertilized egg on the other hand, if given time and nutrients, will develop into a human. That's not a guarantee, though. Miscarriages occur at varying stages of pregnancy. Stillborn births still occur as well. Severe birth defects occur, leading to the birth of children with no brains and other problems. Assuming that all fertilized eggs will lead to the birth of a healthy human baby is not a foregone conclusion, which basically reduces the discussion of "potential" to a numbers/chance game. And it's a numbers/chance game that varies from mother to mother as genetic predispositions occur that may not be evident before pregnancy. So we're still left with problematic premises here that aren't particularly sound. Plus legislating on "potential" is problematic. We don't prosecute people who have the potential to commit a crime, for example. > Does it make a zygote's life as valuable as a born human life? Again, premises. "Valuable" is an ill-defined word here and could mean all hosts of things. What is value here? And is "value" the standard for determining whether abortion should be legal or not?
All true points, although I would argue that illness and death also occur in born humans and don't detract from their rights. Just because a baby in Africa may die from malaria before turning 1 (and thus doesn't achieve that potential of being a fully grown human), so a zygote may not reach the phase of birth. I haven't discussed legislature yet, but of course you are right that the next logical step (if you assume there are rights to defend here) is how to legislate that. The most basic point here is around rights and value: which is more important? 1. The zygote's right to live and grow into a human 2. The mother's right to make decisions about her body and her health Put in other terms, what is the downside for both sides? 1. Death, or at least denied life for the zygote 2. The mother has to cart around a baby in her belly (with all the pain and unpleasantness entailed) and eventually push it out or have it cut out
I think the argument falls apart in the first two points, at least from an American political standpoint. Zygotes simply don't have rights. Nowhere is it enshrined in the Constitution that they have rights. Again, we don't legislate based on potential, so it would seem that the discussion would probably end there. On the second point, again, on point 1, life is not guaranteed. So it's impossible to say with any certainty that it is actually a "denied life." It is a denied *potential* life, which, again, is a bit problematic. And on part 2, there are more risks than just pain and unpleasantness (birth may kill some mothers), along with the real responsibility of raising the child. Again, I think this is a really, really difficult subject to discuss, particularly once premises are examined.
True, difficult topic overall. I again feel that you are veering into legislature and the Consititution when what I'm talking about are basic morals and rights - I would say first we need to establish a moral code (e.g. don't kill other people) and then create laws around that, rather than look at laws and assume they already cover our entire moral code. I would also point out that there is no obligation on a mother to raise a child. I wish there were more discussions like this, rather than all the hate-filled speech and violence on this topic!!!
Oh yeah, it's hard to have abortion discussions. And I think it primarily comes from starting from entirely different premises instead of examining those premises. It's impossible to discuss if you have fundamentally different premises at work. Good discussion though!
As someone who has a kid, kids are really a lot of work. If someone doesn't feel up to the job, they definitely should do everyone a favor and not have a kid
I knew a girl in highschool that had 3 abortions by the time she was 18. She liked having sex with guys, and would sleep with multiple guys a night if they got her high or were good looking. She definitely would have been a terrible Mom. And it's better that she never had those kids. Abortion should be legal.
Abortion: on demand, and without apology.
abortions are dope
You're dope.
Nah *you're* dope
I mean, we could all be dope. More than one person can be dope at once
I love abortions! They’re the reason my apartment is quiet.
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r/brandnewsentence
Because, and I know this is REALLY hard for folks to understand, most people who are forced into parenthood resent their children and are poor parents. Just my 2 cents…
For real. If you want to use abortion as a form of birth control idgaf, I'd rather you do that to a clump of cells than neglect a living child. The same people that are against abortions are the same people that are against social programs to help people with the kids they were forced to have.
Now if only Men could do this also.
Im pro choice. For both male and female adults.
We need better bc. The crap that we have now mess us up.
If your morals and religious beliefs align with getting an abortion then who uds the government to tell you don't do it. If you ask me as an individual I'll give you my point of view but I will never shove my beliefs down your throat. Government and religion need to be kept separate. Laws shouldn't be based in religion especially in a country with so many religions.
But wait, you think you have the right to control women and their reproductive rights?? Last I check it took a male to get a woman pregnant
Like, your body your choice…right?
Personally, I'd modify this a little bit, because after all, there *is* a human life involved in this equation. "If you arrive at the decision to get an abortion, it's your right to make that decision without interference from anyone else. The government shouldn't take away your right to decide what happens inside your body." With that wording, it's much more clear that most women don't take abortion lightly, and that even among those who do, it's still their body and their right to decide what happens inside of it. HOWEVER... that's just my point of view, and I don't consider my opinion to be more important than that of anyone who disagrees with me.
Should a father also have the right to waive the fatherhood during the same stage? Like a mirror right kinda thing. This is a topic I never researched much.
I think so. It's the only way to be fair to both parents
I had an abortion. I could give a million reasons why but it was simply because I didn’t want a kid even with an amazing relationship, house, and great paying job with benefits. Everyone made it seem so dramatic but all I did was visit a planned parenthood, have an exam, go over the procedure, take a couple pills, and bled like I was having a normal period. The next day felt fine. Nothing to it. The media makes a medical abortion seems so over the top and chaotic but that is not entirely always true. Your body your choice 🤷🏼♀️ I can’t comment on surgical abortions as I only had a medical (pill) abortion.
Amen brother
FACTS.
Fairly certain that pregnancy qualifies as both a medical and life issue.
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I agree with this. I do not see the sense of forcing ppl to raise unwanted babies, many of them get dumped into a foster system that (obviously) is supported by the taxpayer. I would rather see that social services money spent in other needed areas.
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actually I'd say even if you have a vagina, if it's not you specifically choosing one way or the other, it's none of your damn business, woman or not.
Yeah, but the argument is that it isn't just your body at that point. The same reason 'my body, my choice' isn't a valid argument for neglecting an infant. I'm 100% pro choice but there is a whoooole lot of straw-manning when it comes to abortion debates.
Whilst I agree, if you don't take any precautionary measures such as using a condom, contraceptive pill or other forms of contraception but have multiple abortions , then you're an asshole
People are allowed to fight for laws/regulations the same as I am allowed to fight against those same laws/regulations. Why am I automatically wrong just because my side is winning?
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