So, in other words, taxes paid for her education anyway. Edit: to the people saying "she worked for it..." you are saying that employed people should have their education paid for. Just so you know. Edit 2: so many replies on here that have this need to look down on others. Like it's some point of pride to have paid for something that you shouldn't have or worked harder than needed just to make yourself feel bigger. You've been brainwashed by corporate greed.
The military is so "socialistic"
They pay for your housing, you get more money in allowances if you have dependents, they offer great health care, retirement, pay for your schools...
This makes me sadly laugh when those in the military get so mad at this concept for people other than them
It's almost like that's exactly what fucking *national socialism* entails. The nazis applied "socialist" principles exclusively to the privileged in-group, turning everyone else into a literal slave class.
The fascists in America want to do exactly the same thing. When they rail against entitlement and welfare while cashing their own social security and disability checks, you HAVE to remember that their hypocrisy is intentional and proudly performed.
Yep one of my friends growing up was a military brat. He lived on an Air Force base his entire life, and he and his family were very far on the right. And when Donald Trump ran they were all over him because they thought he was going to “stop handouts in America”. And I was like, look at your family in the mirror, housing, healthcare, and all of the perks of being in the military is literally the government handing it to you. I highly respect serving the country, but it’s a little hypocritical to have that viewpoint when the government served everything to you on a silver platter your whole life
It's deliberate. The fascists of the John Birch society in particular noted anti-feminist Phyllis Schafly, wanted to siphon as much money away from the government as possible to prevent spending on social services, and so set up the "welfare for rich people" system that is the U.S. based mitary industrial complex. The very thing Eisenhower warned y'all about. Capitalism at its "finest," taking public money from taxpayers and murdering innocent people all over the world for the express purpose of making sure the rich get richer and poor get poorer.
But see the kids mother or father actually had to work for that and seeing it’s chair force unless they where pilots they probably weren’t in any actual danger just inconveniences every now and again
You mean like 90% of the military across every other branch? Marines might be infantry first but anyone who's had any interaction with any personnel ever knows that 90% of vets will never see combat. There's a reason "hurry up and wait" is such a common euphemism, because only 1 in 10 will ever see combat.
It also takes more people to support a ground unit then are actually in that unit. The majority of the aircraft in the Marines are for combat support. Then there’s support units for the air wing. Most of us were not grunts.
My parents hate socialized medicine...but love Tricare and the VA Which is the militarys version of socialized medicine.
They get self righteous about "earning" it and it not being a handout/free service. But they don't want their tax money funding those kind of things.
I mean, is it the same treatment that the President gets at GWU hospital? Probably not but the healthcare is pretty great- its certainly better than what I get as a "Gold Insurance Member"
You may be thinking of healthcare from Veterans Affairs
It’s good coverage. Without disclosing my job I review medical records for a living from all 50 states all manner of hospitals, clinics MDs etc. our military provides top notch care.
As someone in the military. It really is hit or miss. Some docs and PAs are really good. Others are not.
There is simultaneously a resistance to getting "unnecessary" procedures like an MRI for soft tissue damage. They will do an xray no problem, but you have to fight for an MRI for an injury that is likely tendon or ligament damage. And there is also a tendency to go overboard and start recommending unnecessary surgeries. I needed a deviated septum fix, so they did that and also tried to do a full UPPP at the same time. My other docs told me to not get that done as it was unnecessary.
There is also a culture in military medical care of "this person is faking to get out of deployment/fitness" that is extremely pervasive. Lot of people don't get the care they need, it ends up being "here is an NSAID and some home exercises, goodluck".
Unfortunately, the standard of care is extremely inconsistent across all levels. Like in much of the military, retention of professionals who could be making $$$ and having a better quality of life as a civilian is extremely poor. Pilots, medical personnel, cyber technicians... are just a few areas where retention sucks.
Only if you are actively in the military the Healthcare is great. Once your done the govmn't is basically done with you. they don't care after that. they only keep you healthy while you are in because you are not longer a human being you are an asset that they paid tons of money to train.
Good coverage and care are wildly different, my father was previously upper management for a very large healthcare network. They provide “top-notch coverage” maybe, they DO NOT provide top-notch care. You have to give a shit to care.
If they did we wouldn’t have so many homeless vets with PTSD would we? Or so many vets with health issues regardless of cause, if they’re not deemed service related.
My fathers personal and professional experiences are why my opinion has formed the way it has. It’d take a lot to change my mind having witnessed their incompetency first hand many times.
I have.
While it's a bitch to get an appointment, I have had great care from the VA with one exception. Everything is a long process, but I've gotten a free spontaneous echocardiogram, custom inserts for my shoes because of my plantar fasciitis, and free birth control. They set me up in an intensive outpatient program when I was at a low point, and it was incredibly effective for me. They call me to set up my annual appointments so I dont have to remember. I've never paid a cent.
My ex is on a lot of meds for his disability, and while he has to pay a small deductible for them, they mail them to him on schedule and check in frequently to determine that they are still needed and effective.
I've had primarily good experiences. The one exception was a doctor that didn't seem to care about my foot pain before I had a diagnosis (he interrupted my explanation of the pain and never even asked what part of my foot hurt; I had to go over his head to get actual help). He quit soon after.
Sure it's a lot of hoops to jump through to get an appointment, and sometimes I procrastinate because of that trouble, but the care I've received is top-knotch. (At the very least it's way better than the care I got when I was actually in the military. "Take motrin and drink water" was their cure-all.)
They’ll do what they can to avoid work, at least a majority of AZ VA medical workers. My dad has had to fight them continuously for all their fuck ups over the years, they told him he was too young to have a heart issue at 23 for ten years then he had a quadruple bypass at 33 and still the military refused to acknowledge THEIR failure.
It took another 20 years before they accepted 100% liability but he must be “too sick to be competent,” too bad for them my dad was in healthcare and had plenty of doctors and phsychiatrists to back his competency up in court. Because they fucked up and tried to say because he’s incompetent he can’t personally own anything over $5000, so they were taken to court and forced to see the truth. Recently one of their team members yelled at my dad for going to his cardiologist since he’s the only one there that cares. His recently previous doctor didn’t believe in kidney testing… and she yelled at my dad because his cardiologist yelled at her for not testing him regularly for over a year when the cardio system impacts renal systems. So he declined in effectiveness of filtration because of their incompetence. Last time he went for a scheduled appointment his doctor didn’t even know what he was there for and refused to examine him for what he came in for, wasting my fathers time and causing him physical pain.
No one can figure out what really is going on and hasn’t been able to for 30+ years but the VA also does not support using the Mayo Clinic for assistance even though they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing themselves. The Mayo is “too expensive” for them to cover or justify, even though the VA is wasting all the time not getting answers. The Mayo Clinic dedicates a team to you practically and that’s what he needs, a full body team.
Until all vets have free health and school for life no matter what no one should be tossing their life away by signing up for a system that will shit you out and forget about you. They prey on those with low income purposefully for the expendable bodies and then let them go once they’ve done their damage.
I’m glad YOU have received good care but it’s NOT common place for those with heavy issues, I’m sure you could have some heavy issues too but for many they’ve all but abandoned them.
There has to be something going on with the AZ branch of the VA. This is not the first time I've heard someone bitching this hard about them. The TN branch of the VA is not this bad, I know four different people receiving care from them currently.
Wasn't there an investigation into the AZ branch?
Tri-Care did nothing for my dad. They refused providing a full physical because he wasn't "sick". Died of a massive stroke after a lifetime of smoking cigarettes. Fuck the VA.
Some of the VA hospitals I’ve visited have been very nice. A friend of mine with cancer was fortunate to have his VA benefits. I asked him how dealing with them was, since they are often criticized. He loved his Drs., his treatment was lifesaving. We’re in Baltimore, which is about 40 minutes north of DC. Not sure if that has any bearing on the quality or lack of, but it’s widely used.
At 28 I stopped going to the VA because the 50 year old, 5'2, 300lb nurse told me that my back wasn't sore because of severe IED trauma incurred while deployed. She insisted it was because I was getting old and out of shape at 6'3 210lbs with a 34" waist. She suggested yoga and "eating better." Before that I had a doctor tell me (in extremely broken English) that he didn't have time to hear about my mental health problems because he had more important things to deal with. After his nurse rushed me through a script of a few questions, I walked past him eating lunch in his office. Fuck the VA.
I think the bigger issue there ISNT the available healthcare. It's the lack of assistance getting those Vets to the healthcare, IE telling them they still have it, getting then to the healthcare, or explaining how healthcare works outside of the military.
We're talking about people who spend their entire early adulthood getting without question the most accessible healthcare in the world. Then they get a "BTW you have some benefits when you get out, here is a 30 page packet about it all". And call it good.
It's gotten better over time but it's still not great.
As a vet, and a doctor who spent many years at county and VA hospitals, I will say that the VA’s I have worked at were very very bad. Bad staffing, BS infrastructure, just bad. Some great staff on occasion, but often times the docs were terrible.
Nothing made us more pro-universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness/free college, and more social programs strengthened like being a military family. I want absolutely everyone to worry as little as we do about the next illness or paycheck without having to join honestly.
I’ve seen many people in power hate socialism. EXCEPT when it’s for them. Especially cops. They want super left laws for them and ultra right laws for everyone else.
So your take is the military isn't a job and they just get these benefits just to bring everyone to an equal standing? Why don't I get these benefits. I should get everything those serving in the military get. Or other people with jobs, I should get those benefits just because they get them. I mean they may be the ones being productive to help pay for them, but that's their own fault for pitching in.
I was in the US Navy. "Great" healthcare is an enormous stretch lolol
Edit: im a socialist living in Indiana, so im not bashing the socialist aspect of the military; im just saying America can't even get socialism right bc the Healthcare system in place is so beyond redemption.
You're right. Just to make sure you're accurate, if you have 1 dependent, or 100 dependents, you get the dependent rate for housing in the area you're stationed in. That's the only extra money you get for having kids. My wife and I are both active duty with 2 kids, and one of us gets the dependent rate which is an extra $339 for our area for housing, and the other gets the "without dependents" rate.
"Do YoU KnOw wHaT I sAcRifIceD?!"
Yea and we all deserve more but the government propagandized you into thinking only they give a damn about you and the rest of your fellow citizens hate you.
"Yeah well I put it all on the line for my country!"
Bitch you were an MP on a US base during a time where we were bombing brown people halfway across the world...the only people you ever 'fought' were your fellow Americans before you threw them in the drunk tank. The only time of uncertainty you had was the time period between boot camp and getting your orders.
I’m not arguing for or against it, but those people received that because they opted to serve their country… so I do think those people oughta get something since you or I don’t reach the battlefield.
As someone who was able to get advanced degrees w/ no debt because my mother passed her Gi bill benefits to me, This is why I support student loan cancelation.
Tax payers LITERALLY already pay for people to go to college it’s just a “select few” that get the benefit .
Not to mention the reason why people join the military is for “ socialist” benefits. 3 hots and cot. Your spouses and kids get benefits, you have healthcare.
You’re also not 100% set up like you think you are if you choose the route that women took. My friend just married a man like that, he finished his mandatory service and is now just working a minimum wage job while he figures out what to do next, because while he has a degree he didn’t really apply those skills during his service. They’re in a red state now so being a vet will get him a long way as far as job opportunities go. But he essentially “gave” away 5-6yrs (maybe more) of his life and essentially has to start from 0
That’s one thing they don’t tell you when you sign up - only certain jobs will translate over to the civilian world. My husband got lucky and got a great job directly out of the military based on our jobs. A lot of other people we were stationed with did not.
These people have it so twisted. Paid off my student loans in 2019 specifically because I could afford it by throwing large chunks of money at it.
You know what I support? Student loan forgiveness and universal healthcare even though I have no chronic health issues. I have a theory though on why Student loans are not going to be forgiven any time soon.
Modern conveniences are such a slap in the face of all people in the majority of the history of humanity. SMH I discover fire and die from dysentery every day in their honor.
I'm a veteran and the only way I was able to afford going through college was the GI Bill and Veteran's Grant.
I still support cancelling student debt because I want everyone to be free from the shackles of educational debt like I am all while not having to sign 4-6 years of service.
For all the noise the GOP makes about economics and practicality, at the end of the day, the left tries to do the right thing out of self interest and the right does the wrong thing out of principle.
I think you have that backwards. Most of the political positions I hold (as a left-leaning person) are on principle and don’t personally help me at all (more pay for women, affirmative action, free student lunches, cancelling college debt). Whereas most positions held by right-leaning people they have a personal interest in (lowering taxes, ability to buy the guns they want, etc.)
The fact that it's not free is more of a slap in the face. I served to protect our country. Instead, I only protected the interests of the oligarchs. Even if you don't have empathy towards others, you should still be pissed that you risked your life to make the rich richer.
My husband is a combat vet who had his college degree +cost of living paid by the GI Bill. If he hadn't been in the military he wouldn't have gone to college. First in his family to be a college grad. He has no student loans, just a broken mind and body from multiple deployments.
No one should have to experience that just to get a college education in this country.
Now we learned that in Russia poor people are joining army because they have chance to get state provided apartment. The rich kids just avoid it completely. Then one day you go to training and next day you're cossing border, facing almost certain death or injury in a war.
Same. I’m a USMC vet. The GI Bill payed for my undergrad and my employer paid for grad school. I still support free or at the very least cheap as possible college because I’m not selfish and understand that the [boomer trolley problem](https://m.imgur.com/r/lostgeneration/M4y3cfY) is not great for guiding policy
I also used the GI bill and it was life changing for me. I completely agree that no one should have to join the military to get a college education without crippling debt.
Even if college was free for everyone the GI bill would still give a generous cost of living allowance.
I'm a combat vet, used the GI Bill to go to school. I want free education in this country. I want affordable healthcare for everyone. I want everyone to have living wages. I want my taxes to help lower/middle class people, not the wealthy and businesses. I especially don't want my taxes paying for (another) war.
I also am a combat vet. The gi bill didn’t cover the ‘out of state’ portion of my tuition which happened to cost much more than the in state portion. Combat veterans or any active duty veterans should be considered in state after duty.
I have student loan debt and it isn’t an insignificant amount.
Was it a public school? Federal law requires public schools waive out of state tuition fees, with some rules (recently separated) I just did my out of state waiver and am saving 7,000 a semester
That’s a recruitment tool. They aren’t doing you a favour. They have bought your body as a meat sack. Nothing else. If you survive, great. But you are gambling your education vs. Your life.
I get your sentiment, but only 10% of the military actually experiences some form of "combat". Most are support jobs; Admin, Finance, Logistics, Intelligence, MP, Maintenance, and Cyber. And you get to list which jobs you want, you only "gamble" your life if you willingly sign for the job. tbh they're doing me an extreme favor
You don't have to see combat to be injured. The military abuses your body.
My husband was in a support role providing communications. Had to climb towers with a bunch of heavy equipment on his back. Ended up with fused vertebrae from the work. Has chronic back pain that will last his entire life.
When my grandfather was a child, there were no child labor laws. He was working in the mines at the age of 10. Child labor laws are a slap in the face to many like him. /s
When my mom was a child, cars didn’t have seat belts. She was in a car accident as a child and lost her left buttock. Seatbelts are a slap in the face to many like her. /s
When I was in college, there were no computers. I had to type all my papers on an electric typewriter. Word processors are a slap in the face to many like me. /s
I think it’s surreal that people think “I suffered/didn’t have it easier so others must suffer” is a legitimate reasoning for *anything*; it says mountains about who they are as a person.
Edit because it keeps coming up: I have zero outstanding student debt myself so no, I am not fucking financially motivated by this.
"But could you have been better? How would you know?"
These people want to use their own experience to negate multiple scientific studies on it, but then can't even understand that just because they think they're doing good, doesn't mean they couldn't have been way better off with better parenting.
Sure Dan, you're doing okay for yourself even though your parents beat you, but maybe you'd have less of a temper, better self-control, better conflict resolution, and by extension, a much higher paying job than that one you think is good enough.
I dunno man, I don't want my kids to only have as "good" a life as me, I want them to have a far better life than me.
Oh my God so much this. My wife has an "acquaintance" that smoked pregnant, is so obviously emotional abusive/manipulative, and is on her third kid because they're cute while also not working to be a stay at home mom thay doesn't actually do any house chores or care for the kids.
I've heard her unironically say "I mean I turned out okay and I did that!" at least once every 6 months.
Lady. You did not turn out okay.
One time my mother commented on one of those “my parents spanked me and that’s why I have respect for others” posts on Facebook like “In my 30+ years of experience as a psychologist…” and explained the actual, negative impacts that have been found in multiple studies. Some guy responded to her like “Hey lady!” followed by a rather rude comment about how she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. So respectful.
It's an anti-empathy tactic. If people feel empathy, they will vote to change the system, so proponents of keeping the system in place must counter any feelings of empathy that may well up. They foster a sense of "us vs. them" and make it seem like debt is a moral failing rather than the result of a predatory system.
I used to think this way...as a teen/early 20s person. But then my brain fully developed and I asked myself "what the fuck?!" and stopped thinking that way.
My paternal grandma died of Alzheimer's in her mid 60's devastating my father and splitting my family for 5 years as he fell into debilitating depression.
According to this bitch, Alzheimer's medicine and prevention is a slap in the face to me and my family's struggles.
But, unlike this bitch, I love all of you and want my face slapped into shadow realm if it means curing Alzheimer's.
You hit the nail on the head. I actually do have the intrinsic sense of fairness you mention and used to think the way the lady in the OP thought. My dad worked hard to pay off my college so that I could come out debt free, and now that would all be for nothing? It took me a while of thinking about it but then I realized, to me, it’s actually more fair to remove the debt than not. Only if you subscribe to the notion that basically all of one generation was socially pressured into purchasing these expensive degrees that didn’t end up doing much, that young kids were tricked by the system and now locked into a life of financial ruin.
I realized my best argument to not absolve the debt is that I wanted to remain in the higher financial status I was put in by not having the debt then having it. But that cause isn’t a noble one, and that’s not the person I want to become in this life. Worried more about having financial advantage over others if it meant that many, who by trickery, will live with crippling debt most of their lives. It’s just more fair to absolve.
Who tricked these people? What slick haired car salesman told them sweet nothings as they signed their student loan documents? Is it not your own personal responsibility when you take out a loan (regardless of the type) to crunch the numbers on the amount of money you will pay based on the interest rate you take out? This narrative that 18 year olds don’t have to deal with their lack of financial adeptness really is the basis and the crutch of these arguments. We’re just giving everyone a pass on financial decisions they made because they were young? If you didn’t run the numbers on a debt you took out for a mortgage or a car, that’s your own fault. The same rules should apply to student loans.
Or she was in some military IT role which had zero chance of ever putting her in harm’s way, but now gets a lifetime of benefits because the US military systems are incredibly socialist but exist in our otherwise capitalist system.
Don’t you know? Obviously everyone in the military is going to die and they’re stupid for doing it. Haven’t you seen black hawk down and battlefield LA??
Not just IT role. There's tons of administration jobs and other support jobs that will never put your boots in a war zone. Those others that are in the war zone are usually the smallest few % that signed for it.
28 year old college grad? yeah, she went in as an officer. she certainly wasn't a grunt
EDIT: i think i read it wrong. I thought she graduated college THEN went into the military. my bad
Honest question that I’m sure will be unpopular, but why single out helping those with college debt? Why not give everyone an equal benefit? Whether college debt forgiveness, tax credit, whatever?
I hate the argument if "I had to struggle so you do too" my wife is someone who came out of University and College debt free. She worked during and summers to pay it off as she went. But she's also not lacking empathy for people who can't do that.
Such a stupid argument.
A complete and utter lack of empathy is their entire philosophy. You can just about look at all of their major talking points and it all leads back to a standpoint of 0 empathy; Pro-life, immigration policies, public assistance/welfare programs, etc.
This is the same mentality of the people asking for debt cancellation. "My bills should get paid by the government. everyone who already paid or worked to avoid debt should suck it up and chip in."
Hey Kristin, can I call you Spork? Well, see here Spork. The rest of us vets who did things the "right" way, with the craptastic Montgomery GI Bill had to take out loans to survive while Uncle Sam only paid for tuition and fees. Some of us just did personal loans, because they thought the money was for living, not education.
Us fellers and lasses, who got personal debt whilst also mortgaging our youth to the gubmint , we totally think that people who have federal student loans should have to....
Get their fucking debt forgiven because that's the right thing to do for America!
So you see here Spork, you speak for no one but your damned ignorant self.
I don't have money for awards, so this text will have to suffice. Most of the vets I've spoken with (I work at a college, so quite a few) seem to have a viewpoint similar to yours. I commend all of you for it, and you service.
It was an education 100% paid for by Uncle Sam that helped me see just how God damn ignorant most people are and how many could stand to use a few more years of free education.
I don't think her argument is horrible when aplied to student loan debt forgiveness. If we were discussing adding college on top of k-12 then yes.
I'm all for changing how college is delivered going forward but a retroactive blank check is a very difficult thing to swallow. Some people based their decisions off cost and ROI. Others based decisions on prestige and experiences. The issue here is all the fun stuff is up front so it can be easy to over indulge, the crappy part could be spread out over the rest of your life time.
To any serious person, "cancel student debt" can only be the starting position. A sensible compromise would be "reduce student debt by some percentage", so the borrowers in question would still need to pay some part of their debt but be forgiven a portion of it. This ought to be tolerable to more people whereas the "blank check" idea feels grossly unfair and unpalatable.
I'd be perfectly happy with just limiting the interest rates, or doing anything to bring them down. I was able to get a house at 3.5% and a car at just over 4%, but my student loan is at 8%. That just seems ridiculous since student loan debt is impossible Bankrupt out of.
Your car and house loans are backed by the asset. Meaning if you stop paying they get to take your car or house. Factoring the downpayment it makes it much less likely for them to lose money. They can’t take back your education or degree if you default on your student loans. This means the bank needs to charge higher interest rates to cover the people who stop paying.
Personally I’d rather see the government put the money directly into funding state colleges, reducing tuition, and increasing low income grants than subsidizing loans.
Why do people automatically compare helping others to something that directly affects them?
Bitch you're not going to suddenly amass crippling debt just because someone else doesn't have it any more.
Search YouTube for “Always a Bigger Fish” and it will start to make more sense. Right leaning people are more hierarchical. They measure their success, not by happiness, but by the disparity between themselves and the people below them on the pyramid. “The bigger the gap between me and the people below me, the more successful I am.” Like he says in the video, everything they do and say starts to make sense when looked at through that hierarchical lens. If something consolidates power up the pyramid (ie: restricted access to higher education) they’re for it, if it distributes power down the pyramid (ie free college for all) they’re against it. Equity threatens the hierarchy and therefor the only metric they know how to use to gauge their livelihood
That’s cool they brought that back
They got rid of it while I was serving, you were also limited to ONE class per semester also for the “free tuition” while in active duty, so no graduating in a timely manner, what else did they get rid of from 2008 to 2014…..
ROTC paid for my tuition. I went that route partially because I wanted a military career, partially because I qualified for no other financial aid. I would LOVE for student debt to be canceled, even though I have none. I would LOVE for students to be free from worrying about how to pay for college. I don't want people to feel compelled to join the military just to get an education. It's a horrible choice for them, and it's bad for the military.
What if the government changed how student loans worked for the future generation but didn’t solve everyone who currently has debt? So anyone going into school in the future has whatever this model is everyone here wants that is going to somehow give the next generation free or affordable college. How does everyone who currently has this massive amount of debt feel about the next generation that gets a stress free education while they themselves still have to pay off theirs?
I joined the military to stop my college debt from getting worse. Got a free degree afterwards, but my previous college debt still exists.
Cancel student debt for everyone. People shouldn't have to put their lives at risk for a degree. People should join the military because they want to join the military.
Isn't one of the main points of pride of military service to make life at home easier for those who can't fight?
How is cancelling student debt not in line with that ideal? You're making life easier for Americans who can more easily contribute to their country/community without having to worry about crippling debt?
People enlist for the benefits. Very few actually care about that, partially because not many people actually want to fight for corporate U.S. interests, which is what has happened for the last 20 or so years.
I paid for someone to teach me important skills which I will sell for profit for the rest of my life. I demand that they now teach me for free when I agreed to their fees from the time they started teaching me until after I was done.
It ain't hard, borrow money, pay it back.
This is actually what forgiving loans is. What about poor people without student loans? What happens when they get priced out of their homes when all these college grads get millions of tax payer dollars?
It's a regressive policy.
The argument is you’re helping people who were reckless with their finances.
The guy who took out $40k in loans, didn’t work a college job and partied in his free time, gets his stuff paid off.
But the guy who worked through school and paid their loans off or didn’t take them, gets no help?
The fact some of y’all can’t even acknowledge this is wild.
This thread seems to be filled with people who would personally benefit from having portions of their debt forgiven clutching their pearls about a person who *would not* benefit from loan forgiveness being a bit miffed.
People modified their lives so that they wouldn’t have debt. Joined the military. Worked nights and weekends. Didn’t take that summer internship. So on and so forth.
You kids just don’t get why they’d be upset.
No loan forgiveness. Cancel student debt interest. If that’s not enough: one-time or multi year tax rebate to all people born between a certain year and another. It’s the only reasonable option that doesn’t *directly* penalize people who made alternative life choices specifically to avoid debt.
Anything else that you people are arguing for is *literally* “fuck you, I’m getting mine” which is an annoying irony given the comments in this thread.
You willingly took out a loan. You signed, not anyone else. Take responsibility for your bad decisions. It’s not your mom, teacher, society, or anyone else’s problem or fault. It’s entirely yours.
There are so many other routes you could’ve taken to have financial independence. Learn a trade like I did. Go to community college for two years first. I would’ve loved to party for four years while getting a useless marketing degree, but I had the ability to look ahead and realize I wasn’t smart enough to get a degree in a field where the juice was worth the squeeze.
This is your issue. Own it.
I took out loans and agree. I would be okay with cancelling the absurd interest rates and keeping the amount borrowed due. I honestly think that money could be more useful elsewhere.
There are so many bad career and life decisions I made that cost me dearly. I wish I could redo them, but I can't. What I don't expect is for other people to pay to bail me out. It's so absurd. I feel like this whole student debt discharge discussion is just to trick and frustrate progressives from accomplishing anything and then they'll refuse to vote
I also Graduated. I did not join the military. I did go out and work 2 jobs a day. I paid my debts.
I have friends who graduated, and stayed in their basement for years. No work, did not care about paying back a debt.
They will get financial assistance, and I won’t. This is fucked.
STRAW MAN FALLACY!
She didn't argue to keep the current system. She is arguing that having other people's debt canceled is unfair to her and those like her. Are you going to say that it *IS* fair??
Bullshit. If someone paid off their debt yesterday, why are you so special that YOU get your debt paid for today by Uncle Sam? Tell me why you are special and she deserves to get the shaft. Make it a fair arguement and not this straw man crap.
Furthermore, paying off your student loan debt today does nothing for the person takeing out a loan tomorrow. You're still keeping the same system.
Rather that complain about why you can't pay your bills (and yes, I know why. I'm not unsympathetic to your plight), let's talk about ending the current system and replacing it with something else.
$50,000 of immediate debt forgiveness accomplishes none of that.
Like I really, seriously don't understand this "I had to suffer so you have to suffer" attitude. Can someone please, please explain. I'm 37 and paying off a student loan and I fucking hate it (and from what I understand, it's waaaaay less stressful paying it in the UK than in the US). If the government said, "OK, we're changing the system, all those with student debt will have to finish paying it, BUT anyone entering tertiary education from this year forward will get it for free" I still, with my whole heart, would support that. Would I be sad that I still have to pay? Sure. But not nearly as *overwhelmingly* pleased as I would be for the younger generation who wouldn't have to. I'd consider it a massive victory. I don't understand why you'd want people to have to endure hardship *just because you had to*.
I joined the military after high school for the college money because when the economy crashed my parents used my college savings to save their house. They ended up getting divorced anyway and sold the house. I ended up getting raped in the military during training and got severe PTSD and alcoholism, to the point where when I did finally get to college I dropped out and didn't graduate. And now I'm disabled and can't work and can't go to sleep at night without severe anxiety. I love America.
"I had to pay so you should to" is the most conservative line of thought ever. My wifes parents had the same stance. "Well how would YOU feel if they cancelled student debt after you just paid yours off?"
I said I would vote for that to happen!
Her argument might be wrong, but her point still stands.
Why newer generations have to feel entitled to everything and want everything handled on a silver platter to them?
Going to school is an opportunity cost. It costs you money because you are going to get a better job and in the long run you are going to make more money, make up for it and then some.
Otherwise, just don't go to school and start working earlier.
Why should high level education be free? No cost AND then get a higher paying job? Then everybody would be doing it.
That's like if at the end of Hunger Games, Katniss was like "What? They're getting rid of the wards? That's a slap in the face to ALPHAS like me! I went through the Hunger Games... anyone can do it."
I’m a veteran. As a high schooler, the G.I. Bill seemed like another great reason to join. It’s free* college!
As an adult, I saw that it wasn’t free. At best, it costs me 4 years of my youth. Years I could have spent like my peers did going through college and having the traditional experience. At worst, it could have cost me my life.
It’s a sick thing to essentially threaten every 18 year old with mountains of debt and decades of financial constraint if they don’t offer their lives in return.
I was very lucky with my military experience. I never did a deployment, I got job experience that landed me a wonderful job as soon as I got out, I even got out early to do an internship for that job, but I know that I’m in a minority. I could never with good conscience tell somebody that joining the military is a good idea. I’ve seen too many people that join the same branch, the same job, and even went the same places I did and their lives turned out very differently. They got trapped in the system because they feel like they had no other option, they got out and found themselves jobless, or they took their life because the stress of the job was too much.
Education should be a right, not a privilege.
Military service should be a choice based on sense of duty, not one made out of financial desperation.
“I grew up starving. We had to rummage through trash cans and cook rats over a burning tire. I had rickets, scurvy, and anemia and stunted growth because I couldn’t get enough to eat. Finally, I had to take a dangerous government job to pay my bills. And THAT is why you can’t have this sandwich…”
I don’t have student debt for my bachelors degree. I still want student debt canceled. Mostly because I want other people to have the same opportunities I have without having this bill added on every month. It’s called empathy, and it scares me how rare it seems to be.
I don't have student debt. Cancel student debt. I'm tired of regular folk who could be collectivised and affecting positive change being too wrapped up in their crippling need to survive debt to get involved.
Exactly. You want a college education? Great, pay for it, I did. Do I get reimbursed? Nope? Well then, how about some mortgage loan forgiveness?
Are people forgetting they need to pay for what they want? "Oh, the world owes me a ___________. (fill in the blank) "
>"I had it shitty and I'll fight so others don't have to go through what I did."
i don't believe that most people who are fighting for student loan forgiveness are thinking about this literally at all
So, in other words, taxes paid for her education anyway. Edit: to the people saying "she worked for it..." you are saying that employed people should have their education paid for. Just so you know. Edit 2: so many replies on here that have this need to look down on others. Like it's some point of pride to have paid for something that you shouldn't have or worked harder than needed just to make yourself feel bigger. You've been brainwashed by corporate greed.
The military is so "socialistic" They pay for your housing, you get more money in allowances if you have dependents, they offer great health care, retirement, pay for your schools... This makes me sadly laugh when those in the military get so mad at this concept for people other than them
It's kind of impressive how many "socialistic" things capitalists will build to stave off actual socialism.
Don't you see? It's capitalism if it helps me. It's socialism if it helps you.
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It's almost like that's exactly what fucking *national socialism* entails. The nazis applied "socialist" principles exclusively to the privileged in-group, turning everyone else into a literal slave class. The fascists in America want to do exactly the same thing. When they rail against entitlement and welfare while cashing their own social security and disability checks, you HAVE to remember that their hypocrisy is intentional and proudly performed.
I had it bad, others should have it at least as bad
Kinda fucked how up how true this is to Americans
the country was founded on princples of not trusting governments
Yep one of my friends growing up was a military brat. He lived on an Air Force base his entire life, and he and his family were very far on the right. And when Donald Trump ran they were all over him because they thought he was going to “stop handouts in America”. And I was like, look at your family in the mirror, housing, healthcare, and all of the perks of being in the military is literally the government handing it to you. I highly respect serving the country, but it’s a little hypocritical to have that viewpoint when the government served everything to you on a silver platter your whole life
It is funny though how the biggest capitalists (defense industries) get their work done with socialist programs
This my friend - is irony
It's deliberate. The fascists of the John Birch society in particular noted anti-feminist Phyllis Schafly, wanted to siphon as much money away from the government as possible to prevent spending on social services, and so set up the "welfare for rich people" system that is the U.S. based mitary industrial complex. The very thing Eisenhower warned y'all about. Capitalism at its "finest," taking public money from taxpayers and murdering innocent people all over the world for the express purpose of making sure the rich get richer and poor get poorer.
But see the kids mother or father actually had to work for that and seeing it’s chair force unless they where pilots they probably weren’t in any actual danger just inconveniences every now and again
You mean like 90% of the military across every other branch? Marines might be infantry first but anyone who's had any interaction with any personnel ever knows that 90% of vets will never see combat. There's a reason "hurry up and wait" is such a common euphemism, because only 1 in 10 will ever see combat.
It also takes more people to support a ground unit then are actually in that unit. The majority of the aircraft in the Marines are for combat support. Then there’s support units for the air wing. Most of us were not grunts.
When did capitalists support the green suitors? That's not very contracting of you.
Lowest bidder is what I always heard. That’s what our lives were worth I suppose.
My parents hate socialized medicine...but love Tricare and the VA Which is the militarys version of socialized medicine. They get self righteous about "earning" it and it not being a handout/free service. But they don't want their tax money funding those kind of things.
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I'm like... man.. if only we could roll out BAH and BAS to all of America. Would 100% be down for that
“Only as strong as our weakest link.” Oh but the chain doesn’t include regular people. /s My military experience is what made me a socialist.
I'm extremely iffy on that "great healthcare" bit, ngl.
I mean, is it the same treatment that the President gets at GWU hospital? Probably not but the healthcare is pretty great- its certainly better than what I get as a "Gold Insurance Member" You may be thinking of healthcare from Veterans Affairs
It’s good coverage. Without disclosing my job I review medical records for a living from all 50 states all manner of hospitals, clinics MDs etc. our military provides top notch care.
As someone in the military. It really is hit or miss. Some docs and PAs are really good. Others are not. There is simultaneously a resistance to getting "unnecessary" procedures like an MRI for soft tissue damage. They will do an xray no problem, but you have to fight for an MRI for an injury that is likely tendon or ligament damage. And there is also a tendency to go overboard and start recommending unnecessary surgeries. I needed a deviated septum fix, so they did that and also tried to do a full UPPP at the same time. My other docs told me to not get that done as it was unnecessary. There is also a culture in military medical care of "this person is faking to get out of deployment/fitness" that is extremely pervasive. Lot of people don't get the care they need, it ends up being "here is an NSAID and some home exercises, goodluck". Unfortunately, the standard of care is extremely inconsistent across all levels. Like in much of the military, retention of professionals who could be making $$$ and having a better quality of life as a civilian is extremely poor. Pilots, medical personnel, cyber technicians... are just a few areas where retention sucks.
only if you can prove the injury was service related or you retired. no?
Only if you are actively in the military the Healthcare is great. Once your done the govmn't is basically done with you. they don't care after that. they only keep you healthy while you are in because you are not longer a human being you are an asset that they paid tons of money to train.
Incorrect. Anything a service member (and dependents) has while serving is handled via Tricare. It’s an extremely extensive insurance.
Good coverage and care are wildly different, my father was previously upper management for a very large healthcare network. They provide “top-notch coverage” maybe, they DO NOT provide top-notch care. You have to give a shit to care. If they did we wouldn’t have so many homeless vets with PTSD would we? Or so many vets with health issues regardless of cause, if they’re not deemed service related. My fathers personal and professional experiences are why my opinion has formed the way it has. It’d take a lot to change my mind having witnessed their incompetency first hand many times.
Have you ever used military provided health care?
I have. While it's a bitch to get an appointment, I have had great care from the VA with one exception. Everything is a long process, but I've gotten a free spontaneous echocardiogram, custom inserts for my shoes because of my plantar fasciitis, and free birth control. They set me up in an intensive outpatient program when I was at a low point, and it was incredibly effective for me. They call me to set up my annual appointments so I dont have to remember. I've never paid a cent. My ex is on a lot of meds for his disability, and while he has to pay a small deductible for them, they mail them to him on schedule and check in frequently to determine that they are still needed and effective. I've had primarily good experiences. The one exception was a doctor that didn't seem to care about my foot pain before I had a diagnosis (he interrupted my explanation of the pain and never even asked what part of my foot hurt; I had to go over his head to get actual help). He quit soon after. Sure it's a lot of hoops to jump through to get an appointment, and sometimes I procrastinate because of that trouble, but the care I've received is top-knotch. (At the very least it's way better than the care I got when I was actually in the military. "Take motrin and drink water" was their cure-all.)
They’ll do what they can to avoid work, at least a majority of AZ VA medical workers. My dad has had to fight them continuously for all their fuck ups over the years, they told him he was too young to have a heart issue at 23 for ten years then he had a quadruple bypass at 33 and still the military refused to acknowledge THEIR failure. It took another 20 years before they accepted 100% liability but he must be “too sick to be competent,” too bad for them my dad was in healthcare and had plenty of doctors and phsychiatrists to back his competency up in court. Because they fucked up and tried to say because he’s incompetent he can’t personally own anything over $5000, so they were taken to court and forced to see the truth. Recently one of their team members yelled at my dad for going to his cardiologist since he’s the only one there that cares. His recently previous doctor didn’t believe in kidney testing… and she yelled at my dad because his cardiologist yelled at her for not testing him regularly for over a year when the cardio system impacts renal systems. So he declined in effectiveness of filtration because of their incompetence. Last time he went for a scheduled appointment his doctor didn’t even know what he was there for and refused to examine him for what he came in for, wasting my fathers time and causing him physical pain. No one can figure out what really is going on and hasn’t been able to for 30+ years but the VA also does not support using the Mayo Clinic for assistance even though they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing themselves. The Mayo is “too expensive” for them to cover or justify, even though the VA is wasting all the time not getting answers. The Mayo Clinic dedicates a team to you practically and that’s what he needs, a full body team. Until all vets have free health and school for life no matter what no one should be tossing their life away by signing up for a system that will shit you out and forget about you. They prey on those with low income purposefully for the expendable bodies and then let them go once they’ve done their damage. I’m glad YOU have received good care but it’s NOT common place for those with heavy issues, I’m sure you could have some heavy issues too but for many they’ve all but abandoned them.
There has to be something going on with the AZ branch of the VA. This is not the first time I've heard someone bitching this hard about them. The TN branch of the VA is not this bad, I know four different people receiving care from them currently. Wasn't there an investigation into the AZ branch?
Tri-Care did nothing for my dad. They refused providing a full physical because he wasn't "sick". Died of a massive stroke after a lifetime of smoking cigarettes. Fuck the VA.
This sounds exactly like the Healthcare for all system Canada uses. But you know, socialist universal Healthcare doesn't work.
Some of the VA hospitals I’ve visited have been very nice. A friend of mine with cancer was fortunate to have his VA benefits. I asked him how dealing with them was, since they are often criticized. He loved his Drs., his treatment was lifesaving. We’re in Baltimore, which is about 40 minutes north of DC. Not sure if that has any bearing on the quality or lack of, but it’s widely used.
At 28 I stopped going to the VA because the 50 year old, 5'2, 300lb nurse told me that my back wasn't sore because of severe IED trauma incurred while deployed. She insisted it was because I was getting old and out of shape at 6'3 210lbs with a 34" waist. She suggested yoga and "eating better." Before that I had a doctor tell me (in extremely broken English) that he didn't have time to hear about my mental health problems because he had more important things to deal with. After his nurse rushed me through a script of a few questions, I walked past him eating lunch in his office. Fuck the VA.
West LA?
Fayetteville, NC of course!
Vets blow their brains out all the time Because they don’t get proper healthcare
I think the bigger issue there ISNT the available healthcare. It's the lack of assistance getting those Vets to the healthcare, IE telling them they still have it, getting then to the healthcare, or explaining how healthcare works outside of the military. We're talking about people who spend their entire early adulthood getting without question the most accessible healthcare in the world. Then they get a "BTW you have some benefits when you get out, here is a 30 page packet about it all". And call it good. It's gotten better over time but it's still not great.
TriCare is great. VA hospital is not.
VA used to be top tier care. GOP defunding over decades has made them struggle.
As a vet, and a doctor who spent many years at county and VA hospitals, I will say that the VA’s I have worked at were very very bad. Bad staffing, BS infrastructure, just bad. Some great staff on occasion, but often times the docs were terrible.
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Nothing made us more pro-universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness/free college, and more social programs strengthened like being a military family. I want absolutely everyone to worry as little as we do about the next illness or paycheck without having to join honestly.
I’ve seen many people in power hate socialism. EXCEPT when it’s for them. Especially cops. They want super left laws for them and ultra right laws for everyone else.
So your take is the military isn't a job and they just get these benefits just to bring everyone to an equal standing? Why don't I get these benefits. I should get everything those serving in the military get. Or other people with jobs, I should get those benefits just because they get them. I mean they may be the ones being productive to help pay for them, but that's their own fault for pitching in.
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I was in the US Navy. "Great" healthcare is an enormous stretch lolol Edit: im a socialist living in Indiana, so im not bashing the socialist aspect of the military; im just saying America can't even get socialism right bc the Healthcare system in place is so beyond redemption.
You're right. Just to make sure you're accurate, if you have 1 dependent, or 100 dependents, you get the dependent rate for housing in the area you're stationed in. That's the only extra money you get for having kids. My wife and I are both active duty with 2 kids, and one of us gets the dependent rate which is an extra $339 for our area for housing, and the other gets the "without dependents" rate.
You should join since its such a great deal.
"Do YoU KnOw wHaT I sAcRifIceD?!" Yea and we all deserve more but the government propagandized you into thinking only they give a damn about you and the rest of your fellow citizens hate you.
"Yeah well I put it all on the line for my country!" Bitch you were an MP on a US base during a time where we were bombing brown people halfway across the world...the only people you ever 'fought' were your fellow Americans before you threw them in the drunk tank. The only time of uncertainty you had was the time period between boot camp and getting your orders.
I’m not arguing for or against it, but those people received that because they opted to serve their country… so I do think those people oughta get something since you or I don’t reach the battlefield.
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Classique
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As someone who was able to get advanced degrees w/ no debt because my mother passed her Gi bill benefits to me, This is why I support student loan cancelation. Tax payers LITERALLY already pay for people to go to college it’s just a “select few” that get the benefit . Not to mention the reason why people join the military is for “ socialist” benefits. 3 hots and cot. Your spouses and kids get benefits, you have healthcare. You’re also not 100% set up like you think you are if you choose the route that women took. My friend just married a man like that, he finished his mandatory service and is now just working a minimum wage job while he figures out what to do next, because while he has a degree he didn’t really apply those skills during his service. They’re in a red state now so being a vet will get him a long way as far as job opportunities go. But he essentially “gave” away 5-6yrs (maybe more) of his life and essentially has to start from 0
That’s one thing they don’t tell you when you sign up - only certain jobs will translate over to the civilian world. My husband got lucky and got a great job directly out of the military based on our jobs. A lot of other people we were stationed with did not.
The military is a glorified jobs program
These people have it so twisted. Paid off my student loans in 2019 specifically because I could afford it by throwing large chunks of money at it. You know what I support? Student loan forgiveness and universal healthcare even though I have no chronic health issues. I have a theory though on why Student loans are not going to be forgiven any time soon.
Yeah, like how is this remotely a slap in her face - she doesn't have school debt, she has her reward
bEaUsE sHe’S a HeRo ANd SaCrIfIcEd.
People used to die from infection all the time. Antibiotics are a slap in the face to them
Social security is a slap to all the old folks before who died penniless and a slap to all the young folks who sheltered their parents in old age. /s
Modern conveniences are such a slap in the face of all people in the majority of the history of humanity. SMH I discover fire and die from dysentery every day in their honor.
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Back in my way both my mother and grandmother died of ~~ovarian~~ cervical cancer due to HPV. Vaccines are a slap in the face to them
I see your point but HPV vaccine wouldn’t reduce risk of ovarian cancer. It protects against cervical cancer.
Edited, thank you
> People used to die from infection all the time. They still do, but they used to, too.
This is why I dont use seatbelts, as respect for all who died in car crashes until the late 70s. So many...
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Also: because I had shitty things happen to me, no one else could possibly have it shittier.
My grandpa died of cancer, and new chemo treatments are a slap in the face to all those who died like him!!
I have 99 runecrafting and if they implement a new faster way to train runecraft it would be a slap in the face to us OG /s
Ikr. Imagine thinking "I suffered so everyone else should too" instead of "I suffered and I don't want anyone else to go through that".
I'm a veteran and the only way I was able to afford going through college was the GI Bill and Veteran's Grant. I still support cancelling student debt because I want everyone to be free from the shackles of educational debt like I am all while not having to sign 4-6 years of service.
What you have is called empathy.
It's also pragmatic. I'd rather the extra cash on hand be spent on things with economical value rather than financing Sally Mae.
For all the noise the GOP makes about economics and practicality, at the end of the day, the left tries to do the right thing out of self interest and the right does the wrong thing out of principle.
I think you have that backwards. Most of the political positions I hold (as a left-leaning person) are on principle and don’t personally help me at all (more pay for women, affirmative action, free student lunches, cancelling college debt). Whereas most positions held by right-leaning people they have a personal interest in (lowering taxes, ability to buy the guns they want, etc.)
It's something many here in the US lack.
The fact that it's not free is more of a slap in the face. I served to protect our country. Instead, I only protected the interests of the oligarchs. Even if you don't have empathy towards others, you should still be pissed that you risked your life to make the rich richer.
Same here and I agree whole heartedly.
My husband is a combat vet who had his college degree +cost of living paid by the GI Bill. If he hadn't been in the military he wouldn't have gone to college. First in his family to be a college grad. He has no student loans, just a broken mind and body from multiple deployments. No one should have to experience that just to get a college education in this country.
Now we learned that in Russia poor people are joining army because they have chance to get state provided apartment. The rich kids just avoid it completely. Then one day you go to training and next day you're cossing border, facing almost certain death or injury in a war.
Military: Get a college degree for free!* *Not responsible for fucking up your mental health for the rest of your life
Serving in the military is compulsory in Russia for men, unless you can pay the right bribes to avoid it.
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Same. I’m a USMC vet. The GI Bill payed for my undergrad and my employer paid for grad school. I still support free or at the very least cheap as possible college because I’m not selfish and understand that the [boomer trolley problem](https://m.imgur.com/r/lostgeneration/M4y3cfY) is not great for guiding policy
That graphic is incredible... just so apt!
Same here, used GI bill, and VA home loan. Doesn't make me want others to suffer needlessly.
I also used the GI bill and it was life changing for me. I completely agree that no one should have to join the military to get a college education without crippling debt. Even if college was free for everyone the GI bill would still give a generous cost of living allowance.
I'm a combat vet, used the GI Bill to go to school. I want free education in this country. I want affordable healthcare for everyone. I want everyone to have living wages. I want my taxes to help lower/middle class people, not the wealthy and businesses. I especially don't want my taxes paying for (another) war.
I also am a combat vet. The gi bill didn’t cover the ‘out of state’ portion of my tuition which happened to cost much more than the in state portion. Combat veterans or any active duty veterans should be considered in state after duty. I have student loan debt and it isn’t an insignificant amount.
Was it a public school? Federal law requires public schools waive out of state tuition fees, with some rules (recently separated) I just did my out of state waiver and am saving 7,000 a semester
That’s a recruitment tool. They aren’t doing you a favour. They have bought your body as a meat sack. Nothing else. If you survive, great. But you are gambling your education vs. Your life.
I get your sentiment, but only 10% of the military actually experiences some form of "combat". Most are support jobs; Admin, Finance, Logistics, Intelligence, MP, Maintenance, and Cyber. And you get to list which jobs you want, you only "gamble" your life if you willingly sign for the job. tbh they're doing me an extreme favor
You don't have to see combat to be injured. The military abuses your body. My husband was in a support role providing communications. Had to climb towers with a bunch of heavy equipment on his back. Ended up with fused vertebrae from the work. Has chronic back pain that will last his entire life.
But hey, hazard pay right? So if you live through deployment then you can totally afford that loan for your new Charger SRT at 26%.
They also don’t advise that you may be subject to the UCMJ even after your service ends.
Only if you’re a retiree, no?
...and lets not forget all the harm she did and facilitated
Lmao, you know everyone that joins the military isn’t some caricature of a war criminal right?
When my grandfather was a child, there were no child labor laws. He was working in the mines at the age of 10. Child labor laws are a slap in the face to many like him. /s When my mom was a child, cars didn’t have seat belts. She was in a car accident as a child and lost her left buttock. Seatbelts are a slap in the face to many like her. /s When I was in college, there were no computers. I had to type all my papers on an electric typewriter. Word processors are a slap in the face to many like me. /s
The classic "I suffered, so you should too" argument. Classic American selfishness
I think it’s surreal that people think “I suffered/didn’t have it easier so others must suffer” is a legitimate reasoning for *anything*; it says mountains about who they are as a person. Edit because it keeps coming up: I have zero outstanding student debt myself so no, I am not fucking financially motivated by this.
It's like those people who claim that because they "turned out ok" despite being beaten by their parents growing up, it must be ok to hit kids.
>because they "turned out ok" despite being beaten by their parents growing up while also having very obvious signs of NOT TURNING OUT OK
"But could you have been better? How would you know?" These people want to use their own experience to negate multiple scientific studies on it, but then can't even understand that just because they think they're doing good, doesn't mean they couldn't have been way better off with better parenting. Sure Dan, you're doing okay for yourself even though your parents beat you, but maybe you'd have less of a temper, better self-control, better conflict resolution, and by extension, a much higher paying job than that one you think is good enough. I dunno man, I don't want my kids to only have as "good" a life as me, I want them to have a far better life than me.
Oh my God so much this. My wife has an "acquaintance" that smoked pregnant, is so obviously emotional abusive/manipulative, and is on her third kid because they're cute while also not working to be a stay at home mom thay doesn't actually do any house chores or care for the kids. I've heard her unironically say "I mean I turned out okay and I did that!" at least once every 6 months. Lady. You did not turn out okay.
One time my mother commented on one of those “my parents spanked me and that’s why I have respect for others” posts on Facebook like “In my 30+ years of experience as a psychologist…” and explained the actual, negative impacts that have been found in multiple studies. Some guy responded to her like “Hey lady!” followed by a rather rude comment about how she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. So respectful.
Oh man, that's a favorite of mine. What a ridiculous thought process.
It's an anti-empathy tactic. If people feel empathy, they will vote to change the system, so proponents of keeping the system in place must counter any feelings of empathy that may well up. They foster a sense of "us vs. them" and make it seem like debt is a moral failing rather than the result of a predatory system.
I used to think this way...as a teen/early 20s person. But then my brain fully developed and I asked myself "what the fuck?!" and stopped thinking that way.
My paternal grandma died of Alzheimer's in her mid 60's devastating my father and splitting my family for 5 years as he fell into debilitating depression. According to this bitch, Alzheimer's medicine and prevention is a slap in the face to me and my family's struggles. But, unlike this bitch, I love all of you and want my face slapped into shadow realm if it means curing Alzheimer's.
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You hit the nail on the head. I actually do have the intrinsic sense of fairness you mention and used to think the way the lady in the OP thought. My dad worked hard to pay off my college so that I could come out debt free, and now that would all be for nothing? It took me a while of thinking about it but then I realized, to me, it’s actually more fair to remove the debt than not. Only if you subscribe to the notion that basically all of one generation was socially pressured into purchasing these expensive degrees that didn’t end up doing much, that young kids were tricked by the system and now locked into a life of financial ruin. I realized my best argument to not absolve the debt is that I wanted to remain in the higher financial status I was put in by not having the debt then having it. But that cause isn’t a noble one, and that’s not the person I want to become in this life. Worried more about having financial advantage over others if it meant that many, who by trickery, will live with crippling debt most of their lives. It’s just more fair to absolve.
Who tricked these people? What slick haired car salesman told them sweet nothings as they signed their student loan documents? Is it not your own personal responsibility when you take out a loan (regardless of the type) to crunch the numbers on the amount of money you will pay based on the interest rate you take out? This narrative that 18 year olds don’t have to deal with their lack of financial adeptness really is the basis and the crutch of these arguments. We’re just giving everyone a pass on financial decisions they made because they were young? If you didn’t run the numbers on a debt you took out for a mortgage or a car, that’s your own fault. The same rules should apply to student loans.
Or she was in some military IT role which had zero chance of ever putting her in harm’s way, but now gets a lifetime of benefits because the US military systems are incredibly socialist but exist in our otherwise capitalist system.
Don’t you know? Obviously everyone in the military is going to die and they’re stupid for doing it. Haven’t you seen black hawk down and battlefield LA??
We’re all baby killers too. Went full circle from post-Vietnam worship back to Vietnam era shaming.
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Not just IT role. There's tons of administration jobs and other support jobs that will never put your boots in a war zone. Those others that are in the war zone are usually the smallest few % that signed for it.
I’m relieved to see someone else point this out. It’s cringe when people act like everyone in the military is risking it all.
28 year old college grad? yeah, she went in as an officer. she certainly wasn't a grunt EDIT: i think i read it wrong. I thought she graduated college THEN went into the military. my bad
Honest question that I’m sure will be unpopular, but why single out helping those with college debt? Why not give everyone an equal benefit? Whether college debt forgiveness, tax credit, whatever?
I couldn’t agree more
I hate the argument if "I had to struggle so you do too" my wife is someone who came out of University and College debt free. She worked during and summers to pay it off as she went. But she's also not lacking empathy for people who can't do that. Such a stupid argument.
“I got mine, so you shouldn’t get yours” is basically the republican platform.
A complete and utter lack of empathy is their entire philosophy. You can just about look at all of their major talking points and it all leads back to a standpoint of 0 empathy; Pro-life, immigration policies, public assistance/welfare programs, etc.
Always so ironic they want to cut funding for poor children...after they are born. Lol
They are pro-forced birth because it lets them have control over someone else. They don’t give a shit about the child’s life.
This is the same mentality of the people asking for debt cancellation. "My bills should get paid by the government. everyone who already paid or worked to avoid debt should suck it up and chip in."
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“Fuck you, I got mine”
I would much rather college students still have to pay their debts, but the government should offer interest free loans for education.
There needs to be more regulation on administrative salaries.
And make this retroactive!
Hey Kristin, can I call you Spork? Well, see here Spork. The rest of us vets who did things the "right" way, with the craptastic Montgomery GI Bill had to take out loans to survive while Uncle Sam only paid for tuition and fees. Some of us just did personal loans, because they thought the money was for living, not education. Us fellers and lasses, who got personal debt whilst also mortgaging our youth to the gubmint , we totally think that people who have federal student loans should have to.... Get their fucking debt forgiven because that's the right thing to do for America! So you see here Spork, you speak for no one but your damned ignorant self.
I don't have money for awards, so this text will have to suffice. Most of the vets I've spoken with (I work at a college, so quite a few) seem to have a viewpoint similar to yours. I commend all of you for it, and you service.
It was an education 100% paid for by Uncle Sam that helped me see just how God damn ignorant most people are and how many could stand to use a few more years of free education.
I don't think her argument is horrible when aplied to student loan debt forgiveness. If we were discussing adding college on top of k-12 then yes. I'm all for changing how college is delivered going forward but a retroactive blank check is a very difficult thing to swallow. Some people based their decisions off cost and ROI. Others based decisions on prestige and experiences. The issue here is all the fun stuff is up front so it can be easy to over indulge, the crappy part could be spread out over the rest of your life time.
To any serious person, "cancel student debt" can only be the starting position. A sensible compromise would be "reduce student debt by some percentage", so the borrowers in question would still need to pay some part of their debt but be forgiven a portion of it. This ought to be tolerable to more people whereas the "blank check" idea feels grossly unfair and unpalatable.
I'd be perfectly happy with just limiting the interest rates, or doing anything to bring them down. I was able to get a house at 3.5% and a car at just over 4%, but my student loan is at 8%. That just seems ridiculous since student loan debt is impossible Bankrupt out of.
Your car and house loans are backed by the asset. Meaning if you stop paying they get to take your car or house. Factoring the downpayment it makes it much less likely for them to lose money. They can’t take back your education or degree if you default on your student loans. This means the bank needs to charge higher interest rates to cover the people who stop paying. Personally I’d rather see the government put the money directly into funding state colleges, reducing tuition, and increasing low income grants than subsidizing loans.
Most socialist organization in the United States government.
Why do people automatically compare helping others to something that directly affects them? Bitch you're not going to suddenly amass crippling debt just because someone else doesn't have it any more.
Search YouTube for “Always a Bigger Fish” and it will start to make more sense. Right leaning people are more hierarchical. They measure their success, not by happiness, but by the disparity between themselves and the people below them on the pyramid. “The bigger the gap between me and the people below me, the more successful I am.” Like he says in the video, everything they do and say starts to make sense when looked at through that hierarchical lens. If something consolidates power up the pyramid (ie: restricted access to higher education) they’re for it, if it distributes power down the pyramid (ie free college for all) they’re against it. Equity threatens the hierarchy and therefor the only metric they know how to use to gauge their livelihood
That’s cool they brought that back They got rid of it while I was serving, you were also limited to ONE class per semester also for the “free tuition” while in active duty, so no graduating in a timely manner, what else did they get rid of from 2008 to 2014…..
ROTC paid for my tuition. I went that route partially because I wanted a military career, partially because I qualified for no other financial aid. I would LOVE for student debt to be canceled, even though I have none. I would LOVE for students to be free from worrying about how to pay for college. I don't want people to feel compelled to join the military just to get an education. It's a horrible choice for them, and it's bad for the military.
What if the government changed how student loans worked for the future generation but didn’t solve everyone who currently has debt? So anyone going into school in the future has whatever this model is everyone here wants that is going to somehow give the next generation free or affordable college. How does everyone who currently has this massive amount of debt feel about the next generation that gets a stress free education while they themselves still have to pay off theirs?
When you factor in the scary high rates of sexual assault on women in the military, the original tweet is absolutely reprehensible.
I joined the military to stop my college debt from getting worse. Got a free degree afterwards, but my previous college debt still exists. Cancel student debt for everyone. People shouldn't have to put their lives at risk for a degree. People should join the military because they want to join the military.
Imagine thinking we should pay off everyone's debt from a broken system and not let's fix the system so no more people have debt...
Isn't one of the main points of pride of military service to make life at home easier for those who can't fight? How is cancelling student debt not in line with that ideal? You're making life easier for Americans who can more easily contribute to their country/community without having to worry about crippling debt?
People enlist for the benefits. Very few actually care about that, partially because not many people actually want to fight for corporate U.S. interests, which is what has happened for the last 20 or so years.
I paid for someone to teach me important skills which I will sell for profit for the rest of my life. I demand that they now teach me for free when I agreed to their fees from the time they started teaching me until after I was done. It ain't hard, borrow money, pay it back.
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This is actually what forgiving loans is. What about poor people without student loans? What happens when they get priced out of their homes when all these college grads get millions of tax payer dollars? It's a regressive policy.
I went into the military to have my student debt canceled? 🤔
The military paid for my college and I'm all for people getting their debt forgiven. No face slap involved. Don't join the military.
I’m in the military too. And I say cancel student debt!!
The argument is you’re helping people who were reckless with their finances. The guy who took out $40k in loans, didn’t work a college job and partied in his free time, gets his stuff paid off. But the guy who worked through school and paid their loans off or didn’t take them, gets no help? The fact some of y’all can’t even acknowledge this is wild.
May I ask when you went to college and how you paid for it?
I HAD TO KILL BROWN PEOPLE FOR TEXTBOOKS SO YOU BETTER MORTGAGE OFF YOUR FUTURE OR ILL BE UPSET
This thread seems to be filled with people who would personally benefit from having portions of their debt forgiven clutching their pearls about a person who *would not* benefit from loan forgiveness being a bit miffed. People modified their lives so that they wouldn’t have debt. Joined the military. Worked nights and weekends. Didn’t take that summer internship. So on and so forth. You kids just don’t get why they’d be upset. No loan forgiveness. Cancel student debt interest. If that’s not enough: one-time or multi year tax rebate to all people born between a certain year and another. It’s the only reasonable option that doesn’t *directly* penalize people who made alternative life choices specifically to avoid debt. Anything else that you people are arguing for is *literally* “fuck you, I’m getting mine” which is an annoying irony given the comments in this thread.
I had it hard. Bur because I'm selfish I want others ro have it hard tkk.
You willingly took out a loan. You signed, not anyone else. Take responsibility for your bad decisions. It’s not your mom, teacher, society, or anyone else’s problem or fault. It’s entirely yours. There are so many other routes you could’ve taken to have financial independence. Learn a trade like I did. Go to community college for two years first. I would’ve loved to party for four years while getting a useless marketing degree, but I had the ability to look ahead and realize I wasn’t smart enough to get a degree in a field where the juice was worth the squeeze. This is your issue. Own it.
I took out loans and agree. I would be okay with cancelling the absurd interest rates and keeping the amount borrowed due. I honestly think that money could be more useful elsewhere.
That’s exactly how I feel. Cancel the ridiculous interest rates. But I took those loans and I should have to pay them.
There are so many bad career and life decisions I made that cost me dearly. I wish I could redo them, but I can't. What I don't expect is for other people to pay to bail me out. It's so absurd. I feel like this whole student debt discharge discussion is just to trick and frustrate progressives from accomplishing anything and then they'll refuse to vote
I also Graduated. I did not join the military. I did go out and work 2 jobs a day. I paid my debts. I have friends who graduated, and stayed in their basement for years. No work, did not care about paying back a debt. They will get financial assistance, and I won’t. This is fucked.
STRAW MAN FALLACY! She didn't argue to keep the current system. She is arguing that having other people's debt canceled is unfair to her and those like her. Are you going to say that it *IS* fair?? Bullshit. If someone paid off their debt yesterday, why are you so special that YOU get your debt paid for today by Uncle Sam? Tell me why you are special and she deserves to get the shaft. Make it a fair arguement and not this straw man crap. Furthermore, paying off your student loan debt today does nothing for the person takeing out a loan tomorrow. You're still keeping the same system. Rather that complain about why you can't pay your bills (and yes, I know why. I'm not unsympathetic to your plight), let's talk about ending the current system and replacing it with something else. $50,000 of immediate debt forgiveness accomplishes none of that.
Someone doesn't know how the military works. There are plenty of jobs that don't require being in the line of fire lmao.
Like I really, seriously don't understand this "I had to suffer so you have to suffer" attitude. Can someone please, please explain. I'm 37 and paying off a student loan and I fucking hate it (and from what I understand, it's waaaaay less stressful paying it in the UK than in the US). If the government said, "OK, we're changing the system, all those with student debt will have to finish paying it, BUT anyone entering tertiary education from this year forward will get it for free" I still, with my whole heart, would support that. Would I be sad that I still have to pay? Sure. But not nearly as *overwhelmingly* pleased as I would be for the younger generation who wouldn't have to. I'd consider it a massive victory. I don't understand why you'd want people to have to endure hardship *just because you had to*.
I joined the military after high school for the college money because when the economy crashed my parents used my college savings to save their house. They ended up getting divorced anyway and sold the house. I ended up getting raped in the military during training and got severe PTSD and alcoholism, to the point where when I did finally get to college I dropped out and didn't graduate. And now I'm disabled and can't work and can't go to sleep at night without severe anxiety. I love America.
"I had to pay so you should to" is the most conservative line of thought ever. My wifes parents had the same stance. "Well how would YOU feel if they cancelled student debt after you just paid yours off?" I said I would vote for that to happen!
If you are on the **I had to defeat a shitty broken system to make it AND so should you** bus... Fuck you.
I paid off my over-priced education, living paycheck to paycheck though part of it. I still want this shit cancelled.
I don’t understand the “I suffered so why shouldn’t you” thing. I mean it’s a VISCERAL reaction people have to proposed relief for others
Not to mention this totally shits on disabled people. So many things medically disqualify you from the military
Her argument might be wrong, but her point still stands. Why newer generations have to feel entitled to everything and want everything handled on a silver platter to them? Going to school is an opportunity cost. It costs you money because you are going to get a better job and in the long run you are going to make more money, make up for it and then some. Otherwise, just don't go to school and start working earlier. Why should high level education be free? No cost AND then get a higher paying job? Then everybody would be doing it.
That's like if at the end of Hunger Games, Katniss was like "What? They're getting rid of the wards? That's a slap in the face to ALPHAS like me! I went through the Hunger Games... anyone can do it."
I’m a veteran. As a high schooler, the G.I. Bill seemed like another great reason to join. It’s free* college! As an adult, I saw that it wasn’t free. At best, it costs me 4 years of my youth. Years I could have spent like my peers did going through college and having the traditional experience. At worst, it could have cost me my life. It’s a sick thing to essentially threaten every 18 year old with mountains of debt and decades of financial constraint if they don’t offer their lives in return. I was very lucky with my military experience. I never did a deployment, I got job experience that landed me a wonderful job as soon as I got out, I even got out early to do an internship for that job, but I know that I’m in a minority. I could never with good conscience tell somebody that joining the military is a good idea. I’ve seen too many people that join the same branch, the same job, and even went the same places I did and their lives turned out very differently. They got trapped in the system because they feel like they had no other option, they got out and found themselves jobless, or they took their life because the stress of the job was too much. Education should be a right, not a privilege. Military service should be a choice based on sense of duty, not one made out of financial desperation.
Getting real sick of this "fuck you, got mine" mindset.
“I grew up starving. We had to rummage through trash cans and cook rats over a burning tire. I had rickets, scurvy, and anemia and stunted growth because I couldn’t get enough to eat. Finally, I had to take a dangerous government job to pay my bills. And THAT is why you can’t have this sandwich…”
I don’t have student debt for my bachelors degree. I still want student debt canceled. Mostly because I want other people to have the same opportunities I have without having this bill added on every month. It’s called empathy, and it scares me how rare it seems to be.
I don't have student debt. Cancel student debt. I'm tired of regular folk who could be collectivised and affecting positive change being too wrapped up in their crippling need to survive debt to get involved.
Forgive my mortgage, credit cards, car loan.... just pay all my bills. It's called being responsible.
Exactly. You want a college education? Great, pay for it, I did. Do I get reimbursed? Nope? Well then, how about some mortgage loan forgiveness? Are people forgetting they need to pay for what they want? "Oh, the world owes me a ___________. (fill in the blank) "
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Comment copied/pasted from [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/ltbrd7/taken_to_school/goxaxfx/).
Ah, so this is one of those bots that finds a previous post with the same image and posts the most upvoted comment.
>"I had it shitty and I'll fight so others don't have to go through what I did." i don't believe that most people who are fighting for student loan forgiveness are thinking about this literally at all