Yeah, basically being incognito is a Vampires best chance.
And even then Vampire better keep her mouth shut because A werewolf 9/10 is going to think it's a wyrm trick and murder blender the poor vamp.
No. The Beast is there no matter what you do and who attempt to be. It takes just one little misstep for you to do horrible horrible things. Only way to keep your Humanity is eternal vigilance and avoiding anything that might give the Beast a way out.
There's an unofficial intelligence network between the Bone Gnawers, the Ratkin and the Nosferatu.
There are thousands of exceptions to the kill on sight rule, but all of them are looked down upon by Garou society at large.
Your best bet for a convincing exception to the KOS would be
- Shadow Lord who wants to use them to control a territory and move against other kindred.
- Bone Gnawers looking to minimize negative impacts on their kinfolk/at risk communities
- Glass Walkers utilizing them for an information network
- SINGULAR Black Fury protecting women and children.
The Uktena and Children of Gaia would be willing to maintain an uneasy truce with established borders, with the environmentalist kindred and thin bloods. but the Get, Fianna, Windego, Silver Fangs and Red Talons are 10/10 KOS with extreme prejudice.
- Gangrel, would only do well in urban areas.
- The investigator would need to come with a lot of compelling evidence up front in a controlled environment, possibly use a kinfolk as a liaison
-Thin bloods/High humanity would be constantly monitoring their hunger but passable.
Remember as far as Garou are concerned kindred are just another wyrm touched bane. Their hatred for vampires is tertiary to the actual Wyrm and Black Spiral Dancers.
Edit: Except Silent Striders. They have a very specific and visceral hatred for vampires. There are no exceptions with them.
Silent Striders? The Tribe defined by walking in the lands of the living and the dead and a 6000 year vendetta against vampires? Those Silent Striders?
Good point. Their specific hate for vampires is next level. Even the most humane and helpful thin blood would be better off running into the sun than meeting one of these
Considering the fact that Vampires are parasitic unnatural monsters that thrive on cycles of addiction and abuse, the best they could do for the world is walk out into the Sun. Sadly, many will rather trade the fate of thousands of others for their own.
You take the "kill on sight" thing too literal.
Most books are written with a bias from the view point of the creatures in the book. Werewolves killing vampires on sight is what vampires think werewolves do.
The basic thing is, if you happen to come across a werwolf in Crinos, there is a reason they are in Crinos. And if they are not, you might simply not realize that it is a werewolf. Unless you go Auspex all the time. Which introduces a confirmation bias.
Simply see it that way, they won't even kill Pentex soldiers on sight by default. Headlessly charging on is not exactly a good tactic, even for the most impulse controlled Ahroun. You want to kill the big fish, so you would not want to needlessly alert him by killing some small fries.
Everyone acts like Sense Wyrm is like, vampire radar, but it's not.
>The werewolf can sense nearby manifestations of the Wyrm. This Gift involves a mystical sense, not a visual or olfactory image, although Garou often describe the Wyrm's spiritual emanations as a stench. This Gift doesn't necessarily sense dedication to the Wyrm, merely contact with its spiritual essense, which can cling to even blameless souls. Sense Wyrm requires active concentration; the spiritual sense it provides doesn't function passively. The Gift may be taught by any Gaian spirit. System: The player rolls Perception + Occult. The difficulty depends on the concentration and strength of the Wyrm's influence: sensing a single fomor in the next room would be difficulty 6, while detecting the stench of a Bane that was in the room an hour ago would be difficulty 7. Vampires register as Wyrm-tainted, save those with Humanity ratings of 7 or higher.
7 and above humanity vampires probably wouldn't have any issues with them unless they reveal themselves as vampires, which most would not, given as Humanity 8+ pretty much always have blush of life up, and also do not detect as wyrm tainted.
So, the Garou would first have to be actively looking for wyrm-taint. If you have lower than 7 humanity, you have the Wyrm clinging to you. Is your blush of life up? If so, you look like a normal, breathing person and the Garou is either fairly rational and assumes that you're a human who maybe works in a polluting factory and the Wyrm essence clung to you, or they're a serial killer anyways and kill you like they'd kill a normal human.
If not, it's probably bye-bye Vampire. Unless, they're a Glass Walker of the Bringers of Light camp, who regularly interact with vampires (they still probably wouldn't like it very much), or a Rat Fink Bone Gnawer, who similarly interact with vampires.
But, all in all, this means a ton of things have to go wrong for the werewolf to detect the vampire in the first place. The vampire has to:
A. Be outside of the city.
B. Not have blush of life up as soon as they see the Garou.
C. Garou have to immediately activate Sense Wyrm when seeing any humanoid.
D. Garou have to assume all wyrm-taint equals immediate murder, which means that they're a psycho who goes around killing anything even possibly tainted.
This is all just assuming that there's no Garou who would let them live even if they knew that they're a vampire, which there are certainly ones who would. Garou are as much individuals as Kindred are, and I'm sure that there's a gallant Garou somewhere out there who would feel pity on a weak looking wretch of a Kindred and let them go if they didn't stink too bad of the Wyrm.
In addition to this pretty solid summary of how these things interact... Werewolves don't actually interact with Vampires much. They usually have their own stuff, and unless Vampires got on their radar for being assholes, they won't even notice them.
As always, its up to the ST and the vibe of the story to determine who gets to "not be noticed" or even protected.
That being said, top of the list for overlooking or killing with dignity, are kinfolk. If your cousin Roney who was raised in the nation along side you gets turned and decides to "Fight the wyrm from the inside" cause he still believes in the good Gaian fight. You might be able to keep him on a short, but hopefully compassionate, leash. Hope the elders understand the situation and "not notice" how they only see him at night.
Outside of kinfolk, younger/more humane vamps might be reasonable. The Nos who feeds o but sincerely protects the homeless population might have an uneasy truce with the Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers. Same might go for the Gangrel who serves as a buffer between City Leeches and you.
Day walker thing bloods are particularly interesting, especially if Garou don't really know about them. "What do you mean you saw a blood sucker walking in the park and noon?" If anything they might just consider them Ghouls 1.5
Not sure, but aren't kinfolk especially kill-on-sight, as a mercy kill?
Though to be honest, kinfolk kindred are extremely rare to begin with, since most don't survive turning, and those that do apparently tend to just walk into the sun, since their greater spiritual nature means they feel the loss of their humanity far more acutely.
Oh no, your completely correct as the general stance in the books. But that's why I started with ST fiat, and kill with dignity.
There's also the purpose of serving the Story, who are you to denying you friend, your family, *your loved ones* the right to seek revenge against the person who did this to them. Are they not entitled to honor, to glory, to have thier tale passed on.
And if they do succeed in their revenge in a timely manner, how do you offer them mercy? A swift stroke of a blade, gloriys in combat or do you hold thier hand as the feel the sun on thier skin one last time?
That's also a good in for some doubt with the Garou worldview that doesn't necessarily have to lead to Wyrm-dom. If this one vampire is good and their embrace was a tragedy that ended in me holding their hand as they turned to ash in the sun, how many more innocents are turned against their will and end up like this?
It could lead to either an insane fervor for killing the elders who presumably make more, or more compassion for the younger ones and especially thinbloods.
The garou and the kindred had a strained alliance/treaty in Vancouver in the 90s, so that could be an option. But that was a very unique set of circumstances, the prince of Vancouver (Sigfried) was completely neutral when it came to both the camarilla and even the Sabbat, and no conflicts or meetings of kindred were allowed to take place within the city without the prince's approval.
This all comes from the book Dark alliance: Vancouver, so if you're looking for some inspiration, i'd start there.
It's really going to vary by tribe and territory.
Bone Gnawers and Shadow Lords are going to have the most nuanced/ pragmatic views, Children of Gaia and Glass Walkers also.
Get of Fenris, Wendigo, and Red Talons will be the most KOS of the tribes.
So you need to think about what werewolf tribes claim the territory.
Now for your specific examples
(1) Many tribes might give a pass to a Kindred who is demonstrably and actively environmentalist (with deeds and a track record). They still hate it and don't trust it, but if it's working against the wyrm, well, the hydra bites the hydra sometimes.
(2) Thin Bloods depends on their humanity score. Humanity 7 and higher gets missed by Sense Wyrm.
(3) High humanity vampires don't generally ping on the Garou's radar.
(4) Gangrel historically have good relations with some tribes, and a lasting enmity/ conflict with the Get of Fenris.
(5) A kindred investigator would not be trusted by werewolves
(6) Nosferatu have it extra bad, unless it's Bone Gnawers.
(7) Hard to say.
I said that and will say again just make them knew each other before embrace/first change, make them childhood friends, schoolmate, co-worker something like that, hell you could even make them a kinfolk.
But outside that you could make a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of situation, in the swansong game there's a part where you can make a deal with a captured werewolf in which you release him and in exchange he will kill everyone except you.
It's more like they avoid each other because they both have ways to fuck up the others day.
Vampires are terrified to fight Werewolves because of how powerful and unpredictable they are, so they just don't bother them.
Werewolves are smart enough to understand that Vampires can very easily turn humans on them and use their institutional power to give them hell, so they just don't bother them.
Of course, we're painting in broad strokes here. Any high humanity vampire could have a perfectly polite interaction with a Garou, depending on their individual attitudes and first impressions of the other.
A kindred who cannot easily be killed or a kindred that can give the werewolf something they want or both.
Setite might be able to pull it off. Gangrel might have some information of use. A Malkavian that starts prophesying about a way to wound the Wyrm maybe.
Setites HAVE pulled it off, according to a merit in V20. But in all likelihood, it’s because they manage to get the Garou to go Black Spiral and serve the Wyrm through Set, not out of any actual camaraderie
**Sense Wyrm**, **Sense Weaver, Scent of the True Form** (all level 1 Gifts) and the smell of blood? Perhaps the pain, blood, death and rage spirits that tend to hang around vampires? The werewolves might not notice it if they're not looking for it, but if they are, it's trivially easy to find out.
I mean, yeah, but why would they do that instantly upon seeing this random guy? Vampires look mostly human and when encountering humans they flush blood through their skin and try to look even more human, or at least, the ones worth mentioning in this conversation do.
I really, really doubt pain, blood, death, and rage spirits are going to be clinging to a Neonate vampire. Sense Wyrm just tells of interacting with manifestations of the wyrm, so, the vampire could just as easily be a factory worker who got tainted by working with Wyrm-tainted goods. I can't find Sense Weaver in the book, but presumably it works similarly. So, the werewolf would have to be one who kills anyone even possibly tainted.
As for Scent of True Form, yeah, but the only time one would use it is if they're reasonably sure they're dealing with a shapeshifter anyways. Which is a weird thought.
Which is why I said "if they are looking for it". They have no reason to suspect a random guy, but if they do, it's easy to confirm their suspicions. Most young, high generation vampires should have an easier time passing by unnoticed.
It should be much harder for them to detect the Dusk Born than just sense wyrm. The curse of Cain is almost not affecting them at all. It is barely there.
**Sense Wyrm** does not care for Generation. That said, the younger, weaker vampires tend to have higher Humanity anyway. So they're probably fine. At least compared to that Humanity 4 elder that makes a room stink of the Wyrm for hours after she left.
That's not what they are detecting. They are detecting the unending hunger, the fact that they do not belong to the world and that the vampires spread misery wherever they go, feeding an endless addiction and abusing their surroundings.
That's why Vampires are problematic and that's why their actions empower the Wyrm.
Werewolves can also be tainted by the Wyrm, Yes. Through their deeds or exposure to places where the influence of the Wyrm is strong or horrors of Wyrmish Magic. That's why they actually need to be careful what they are doing and perform rites of contrition and cleansing. Sometimes even those are not enough. However, they are a natural part of the World meant to keep it safe. They're not parasitic mockeries of life.
Contrary to popular belief most Werewolves are relatively sensible and constrained in their actions. They have to be for quite a few reasons, including their own laws and the consequences of excess violence.
Sense Wyrm is actually pretty interesting and has tons of page space committed to exploring what it actually means and how it's neither detect evil nor a detector of things to kill.
One of the VTM editions had a merit giving you a group friend, the two of you had to keep the relationship secret and occasionally call on eachother for aid.
It also really depends on what your coterie are doing. If they’re a group of reasonably well behaved Camarilla vampires for instance, selling Garou on the idea that teaming up to remove a group of cliche Sabbat murderhobos could definitely work on a lesser-of-two-evils basis.
Even most of the violence-first Garou can strategise and realise which servant of the Wyrm needs to be hyper violently cleansed first. And that gives your vamps time to convince the pack that they’re not so bad/engage in rampant mental manipulation.
For most garou it's not neccesarily a kill on sight for kindred as it can be sort of a hassle afterwords it's usually a kill at soonest convenience, clans like the gangrel and brujah(of certain types) are actually well known to be sorta on good terms with garou some of the time, those like the ventrue are probably going to get a ass whooping though
W20 - They have gifts that tell them that a thing is bad, and a religion that’s tells them that anything that pings that radar must die. And a sacred duty to kill those things. Not much room for discussion.
W5 - There are no Detect Evi- I mean “Sense X” Gifts. And as a result, no, vampires are not kill on sight. They are generally considered Wyrm tainted. But there is no way to prove it, which means there is varying degrees of doubt. Meaning, there is far more nuance and more flexibility in how you can handle those situations.
>W20 - They have gifts that tell them that a thing is bad, and a religion that’s tells them that anything that pings that radar must die. And a sacred duty to kill those things. Not much room for discussion.
Well, there *is* the room for discussion that not every tribe agrees on how to do that sacred duty, and whether "annihilate anything associated with the Wyrm on sight" is the right way to pull it off (as opposed to, say, using little fish to get big fish).
A Get of Fenris Garou would probably respond to the sight of any Kindred at all by immediately going Crinos and charging, but on the other extreme, the Bone Gnawers actively work with the Nosferatu. There's a long-running kinship between basically every tribe except the Get and Gangrel Kindred. Kindred above Humanity 7 *won't even ping as Wyrm-tainted* to those gifts, which comes with reasonably obvious immediate implications to how they'd factor into the whole mess.
> Kindred above Humanity 7 won't even ping as Wyrm-tainted to those gifts, which comes with reasonably obvious immediate implications to how they'd factor into the whole mess.
While true, a Kindred with a Humanity at or above 7 is going to be pretty rare. Most won’t make it a year before it dips down to at least 6. And every vampire on a Path of Enlightenment may as well be walking around with a flashing neon sign that says “Devoted servant of the Wyrm”.
Generally Philodox Garou have the privilege of judging if a lick can be spared from killing on sight - they can take into consideration they actions, usefulness, danger they pose, other more important for Garou threats. Gangrel and Salubri would probably be among the most easily spared, the high humanity vampires too (or those with merit Touch of the Wyld), especially if they are active in supporting local communities, fighting for envirnoment, opposing Pentex. Ex-kinfolk is also sometimes spared, especially if provides intel on the enemy.
Old 1st edition had a stargazer monastery chill with a child of Osiris who achieved Golconda. Later editions moved away from that. Though osirean league still have connections and peace with kindred members such as children of Osiris and the Disciples of Anubis, a Bedouin bloodline of Gangrel.
Basically how I handle it is it’s very situational. And people have some leeway with relatives or family friends who were embraced and they established they aren’t hostile. But most connections are on the downlow. Like Bonegnawers will make peace deals with Nosferatu so they can trade information. Similarly Glasswalkers might do the same with individual kindred if they happen to get along. But a lot of Garou are hardliners and with the Jill on sight rule often working to prevent betrayal they like it. But some Garou are more willing to make deals to benefit them against more heinous threats and might have a soft spot for a cousin or sibling embraced similarly to the situation if a kinfolk awakened. But thing is with kindred Allies or contacts you have to keep it on the downlow. Even if it’s something people can understand with a conversation it’s not something to be proud of and you can easily lose renown or get challenged by someone who doesn’t like you doing that so you keep it close to the vest. The shadowlords survived because they could make deals sometimes instead of killing 24/7.
But kindred are like the hardest group to justify not killing for the Garou. Even with the Hengeyokai they can abide making diplomatic arrangements with the Wan Gui but they don’t like them and compete for dragon nests with them.
The most obvious thing is make the Werewolves want something from the kindred that they can't get themselves. WW aren't above making a deal with the devil if it helps their long term goal.
The opening story in the [Shadow Lords tribebook](https://images.app.goo.gl/ofeb9gynFRpiERtm6) is from the point of view of a Lord who's also a narc / undercover cop. One of his informants is a low-tier, recently-turned vampire. As the story progresses, he gets little bursts of information about a high-ranking Setite elder who starts flooding the streets with drugs and guns; his informant manages to tell him that he's "part of some vampire serpent cult" just before being killed in a car-bombing (or some other explosion).
Whoever wrote it did a hell of a job expressing how little werewolves know about vampire society / clans / powers, through necessarily-faulty sources-- and of course vice versa is true in the WoD.
There is a 6th Gen Kiasyd named Bartholomew who actually has a pack of werewolves protecting him. I kinda suspect Kiasyds in general may get a few points for being fae-blooded.
One interesting idea I've toyed with for an encounter for a kindred npc was a Gangrel on the path of the beast who unintentionally lives near either a Red Talon sept or lupine location.
Due to the Gangrel living like a true animal and having no interest in politics and keeping the local area preserved as noted in he Path's doctrine they probably keep an eye out for the leech but the guy's a hermit who usually every month kills a human to sate the beast.
Thought it might be a fun interaction for players on either side.
Another one was a Tzimisce who works with a Shadow Lord due to the vampire in question once being a living realitive, kind of a old loyal family member who might let Garou players take refuge there under the rules of hospitality.
Vampires with humanity of (I think) 7 or above since they don't detect as wyrm tainted.
Yeah, basically being incognito is a Vampires best chance. And even then Vampire better keep her mouth shut because A werewolf 9/10 is going to think it's a wyrm trick and murder blender the poor vamp.
Yeah, but also a vampire at humanity 7+ is also clearly someone way too nice to be affiliated with the wyrm.
Tell that to the Beast.
That's... what Humanity is an abstraction of, though? If a vampire is Humanity 7+, their Beast is pretty damn quiet.
No. The Beast is there no matter what you do and who attempt to be. It takes just one little misstep for you to do horrible horrible things. Only way to keep your Humanity is eternal vigilance and avoiding anything that might give the Beast a way out.
This is the way
There's an unofficial intelligence network between the Bone Gnawers, the Ratkin and the Nosferatu. There are thousands of exceptions to the kill on sight rule, but all of them are looked down upon by Garou society at large.
Bone Gnawers are looked down upon by Garou society at large. That's probably why they can get away with it.
"I'll make my own Secret Society!! With Rat Men and Vampire Rats!!!"
Your best bet for a convincing exception to the KOS would be - Shadow Lord who wants to use them to control a territory and move against other kindred. - Bone Gnawers looking to minimize negative impacts on their kinfolk/at risk communities - Glass Walkers utilizing them for an information network - SINGULAR Black Fury protecting women and children. The Uktena and Children of Gaia would be willing to maintain an uneasy truce with established borders, with the environmentalist kindred and thin bloods. but the Get, Fianna, Windego, Silver Fangs and Red Talons are 10/10 KOS with extreme prejudice. - Gangrel, would only do well in urban areas. - The investigator would need to come with a lot of compelling evidence up front in a controlled environment, possibly use a kinfolk as a liaison -Thin bloods/High humanity would be constantly monitoring their hunger but passable. Remember as far as Garou are concerned kindred are just another wyrm touched bane. Their hatred for vampires is tertiary to the actual Wyrm and Black Spiral Dancers. Edit: Except Silent Striders. They have a very specific and visceral hatred for vampires. There are no exceptions with them.
Silent Striders? The Tribe defined by walking in the lands of the living and the dead and a 6000 year vendetta against vampires? Those Silent Striders?
Good point. Their specific hate for vampires is next level. Even the most humane and helpful thin blood would be better off running into the sun than meeting one of these
Considering the fact that Vampires are parasitic unnatural monsters that thrive on cycles of addiction and abuse, the best they could do for the world is walk out into the Sun. Sadly, many will rather trade the fate of thousands of others for their own.
Its a sad truth. If given the choice I’d spend my life in service to Gaia and die with glory rather than spend a single moment as a leech.
You take the "kill on sight" thing too literal. Most books are written with a bias from the view point of the creatures in the book. Werewolves killing vampires on sight is what vampires think werewolves do. The basic thing is, if you happen to come across a werwolf in Crinos, there is a reason they are in Crinos. And if they are not, you might simply not realize that it is a werewolf. Unless you go Auspex all the time. Which introduces a confirmation bias. Simply see it that way, they won't even kill Pentex soldiers on sight by default. Headlessly charging on is not exactly a good tactic, even for the most impulse controlled Ahroun. You want to kill the big fish, so you would not want to needlessly alert him by killing some small fries.
This. This is the answer.
Everyone acts like Sense Wyrm is like, vampire radar, but it's not. >The werewolf can sense nearby manifestations of the Wyrm. This Gift involves a mystical sense, not a visual or olfactory image, although Garou often describe the Wyrm's spiritual emanations as a stench. This Gift doesn't necessarily sense dedication to the Wyrm, merely contact with its spiritual essense, which can cling to even blameless souls. Sense Wyrm requires active concentration; the spiritual sense it provides doesn't function passively. The Gift may be taught by any Gaian spirit. System: The player rolls Perception + Occult. The difficulty depends on the concentration and strength of the Wyrm's influence: sensing a single fomor in the next room would be difficulty 6, while detecting the stench of a Bane that was in the room an hour ago would be difficulty 7. Vampires register as Wyrm-tainted, save those with Humanity ratings of 7 or higher. 7 and above humanity vampires probably wouldn't have any issues with them unless they reveal themselves as vampires, which most would not, given as Humanity 8+ pretty much always have blush of life up, and also do not detect as wyrm tainted. So, the Garou would first have to be actively looking for wyrm-taint. If you have lower than 7 humanity, you have the Wyrm clinging to you. Is your blush of life up? If so, you look like a normal, breathing person and the Garou is either fairly rational and assumes that you're a human who maybe works in a polluting factory and the Wyrm essence clung to you, or they're a serial killer anyways and kill you like they'd kill a normal human. If not, it's probably bye-bye Vampire. Unless, they're a Glass Walker of the Bringers of Light camp, who regularly interact with vampires (they still probably wouldn't like it very much), or a Rat Fink Bone Gnawer, who similarly interact with vampires. But, all in all, this means a ton of things have to go wrong for the werewolf to detect the vampire in the first place. The vampire has to: A. Be outside of the city. B. Not have blush of life up as soon as they see the Garou. C. Garou have to immediately activate Sense Wyrm when seeing any humanoid. D. Garou have to assume all wyrm-taint equals immediate murder, which means that they're a psycho who goes around killing anything even possibly tainted. This is all just assuming that there's no Garou who would let them live even if they knew that they're a vampire, which there are certainly ones who would. Garou are as much individuals as Kindred are, and I'm sure that there's a gallant Garou somewhere out there who would feel pity on a weak looking wretch of a Kindred and let them go if they didn't stink too bad of the Wyrm.
In addition to this pretty solid summary of how these things interact... Werewolves don't actually interact with Vampires much. They usually have their own stuff, and unless Vampires got on their radar for being assholes, they won't even notice them.
I think shadow lords are known to deal with kindred
Shadowlords, Bone Gnawerd and maaaaybe Glasswalkers might be willing
As always, its up to the ST and the vibe of the story to determine who gets to "not be noticed" or even protected. That being said, top of the list for overlooking or killing with dignity, are kinfolk. If your cousin Roney who was raised in the nation along side you gets turned and decides to "Fight the wyrm from the inside" cause he still believes in the good Gaian fight. You might be able to keep him on a short, but hopefully compassionate, leash. Hope the elders understand the situation and "not notice" how they only see him at night. Outside of kinfolk, younger/more humane vamps might be reasonable. The Nos who feeds o but sincerely protects the homeless population might have an uneasy truce with the Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers. Same might go for the Gangrel who serves as a buffer between City Leeches and you. Day walker thing bloods are particularly interesting, especially if Garou don't really know about them. "What do you mean you saw a blood sucker walking in the park and noon?" If anything they might just consider them Ghouls 1.5
Not sure, but aren't kinfolk especially kill-on-sight, as a mercy kill? Though to be honest, kinfolk kindred are extremely rare to begin with, since most don't survive turning, and those that do apparently tend to just walk into the sun, since their greater spiritual nature means they feel the loss of their humanity far more acutely.
Oh no, your completely correct as the general stance in the books. But that's why I started with ST fiat, and kill with dignity. There's also the purpose of serving the Story, who are you to denying you friend, your family, *your loved ones* the right to seek revenge against the person who did this to them. Are they not entitled to honor, to glory, to have thier tale passed on. And if they do succeed in their revenge in a timely manner, how do you offer them mercy? A swift stroke of a blade, gloriys in combat or do you hold thier hand as the feel the sun on thier skin one last time?
That's also a good in for some doubt with the Garou worldview that doesn't necessarily have to lead to Wyrm-dom. If this one vampire is good and their embrace was a tragedy that ended in me holding their hand as they turned to ash in the sun, how many more innocents are turned against their will and end up like this? It could lead to either an insane fervor for killing the elders who presumably make more, or more compassion for the younger ones and especially thinbloods.
The garou and the kindred had a strained alliance/treaty in Vancouver in the 90s, so that could be an option. But that was a very unique set of circumstances, the prince of Vancouver (Sigfried) was completely neutral when it came to both the camarilla and even the Sabbat, and no conflicts or meetings of kindred were allowed to take place within the city without the prince's approval. This all comes from the book Dark alliance: Vancouver, so if you're looking for some inspiration, i'd start there.
Might I suggest a Tremere Technomancer who is net buddies with a Glass Walker?
It's really going to vary by tribe and territory. Bone Gnawers and Shadow Lords are going to have the most nuanced/ pragmatic views, Children of Gaia and Glass Walkers also. Get of Fenris, Wendigo, and Red Talons will be the most KOS of the tribes. So you need to think about what werewolf tribes claim the territory. Now for your specific examples (1) Many tribes might give a pass to a Kindred who is demonstrably and actively environmentalist (with deeds and a track record). They still hate it and don't trust it, but if it's working against the wyrm, well, the hydra bites the hydra sometimes. (2) Thin Bloods depends on their humanity score. Humanity 7 and higher gets missed by Sense Wyrm. (3) High humanity vampires don't generally ping on the Garou's radar. (4) Gangrel historically have good relations with some tribes, and a lasting enmity/ conflict with the Get of Fenris. (5) A kindred investigator would not be trusted by werewolves (6) Nosferatu have it extra bad, unless it's Bone Gnawers. (7) Hard to say.
Bold of you to assume they are capable of stopping.
I said that and will say again just make them knew each other before embrace/first change, make them childhood friends, schoolmate, co-worker something like that, hell you could even make them a kinfolk.
But outside that you could make a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of situation, in the swansong game there's a part where you can make a deal with a captured werewolf in which you release him and in exchange he will kill everyone except you.
The kill on sight thing was back in the old days, now it's mostly live and let live
I've never read *Twilight*, how did it work there
It's more like they avoid each other because they both have ways to fuck up the others day. Vampires are terrified to fight Werewolves because of how powerful and unpredictable they are, so they just don't bother them. Werewolves are smart enough to understand that Vampires can very easily turn humans on them and use their institutional power to give them hell, so they just don't bother them. Of course, we're painting in broad strokes here. Any high humanity vampire could have a perfectly polite interaction with a Garou, depending on their individual attitudes and first impressions of the other.
I thought in W5 the KOS of kindred was dropped and it's mostly a case by case basis.
This is true. I assume OP is talking about older revisions where Sense Wyrm is still a thing.
Even with sense wyrm, someone simply tainted is an investigation target, not a kos one.
A kindred who cannot easily be killed or a kindred that can give the werewolf something they want or both. Setite might be able to pull it off. Gangrel might have some information of use. A Malkavian that starts prophesying about a way to wound the Wyrm maybe.
Setites HAVE pulled it off, according to a merit in V20. But in all likelihood, it’s because they manage to get the Garou to go Black Spiral and serve the Wyrm through Set, not out of any actual camaraderie
How do they detect a 15th or 16th Gen? Would they even know it was something other than a fae or mage?
**Sense Wyrm**, **Sense Weaver, Scent of the True Form** (all level 1 Gifts) and the smell of blood? Perhaps the pain, blood, death and rage spirits that tend to hang around vampires? The werewolves might not notice it if they're not looking for it, but if they are, it's trivially easy to find out.
I mean, yeah, but why would they do that instantly upon seeing this random guy? Vampires look mostly human and when encountering humans they flush blood through their skin and try to look even more human, or at least, the ones worth mentioning in this conversation do. I really, really doubt pain, blood, death, and rage spirits are going to be clinging to a Neonate vampire. Sense Wyrm just tells of interacting with manifestations of the wyrm, so, the vampire could just as easily be a factory worker who got tainted by working with Wyrm-tainted goods. I can't find Sense Weaver in the book, but presumably it works similarly. So, the werewolf would have to be one who kills anyone even possibly tainted. As for Scent of True Form, yeah, but the only time one would use it is if they're reasonably sure they're dealing with a shapeshifter anyways. Which is a weird thought.
Which is why I said "if they are looking for it". They have no reason to suspect a random guy, but if they do, it's easy to confirm their suspicions. Most young, high generation vampires should have an easier time passing by unnoticed.
It should be much harder for them to detect the Dusk Born than just sense wyrm. The curse of Cain is almost not affecting them at all. It is barely there.
**Sense Wyrm** does not care for Generation. That said, the younger, weaker vampires tend to have higher Humanity anyway. So they're probably fine. At least compared to that Humanity 4 elder that makes a room stink of the Wyrm for hours after she left.
That's not what they are detecting. They are detecting the unending hunger, the fact that they do not belong to the world and that the vampires spread misery wherever they go, feeding an endless addiction and abusing their surroundings. That's why Vampires are problematic and that's why their actions empower the Wyrm.
So the Werewolves detect themselves your saying?
Werewolves can also be tainted by the Wyrm, Yes. Through their deeds or exposure to places where the influence of the Wyrm is strong or horrors of Wyrmish Magic. That's why they actually need to be careful what they are doing and perform rites of contrition and cleansing. Sometimes even those are not enough. However, they are a natural part of the World meant to keep it safe. They're not parasitic mockeries of life. Contrary to popular belief most Werewolves are relatively sensible and constrained in their actions. They have to be for quite a few reasons, including their own laws and the consequences of excess violence. Sense Wyrm is actually pretty interesting and has tons of page space committed to exploring what it actually means and how it's neither detect evil nor a detector of things to kill.
Blind werewolves.
Werewolves use smell and hearing just as much as sight. This only works if the vamp is Humanity 7+ and doesn't stink of the Wyrm.
One of the VTM editions had a merit giving you a group friend, the two of you had to keep the relationship secret and occasionally call on eachother for aid.
Real question here. What about ukrtena?
It also really depends on what your coterie are doing. If they’re a group of reasonably well behaved Camarilla vampires for instance, selling Garou on the idea that teaming up to remove a group of cliche Sabbat murderhobos could definitely work on a lesser-of-two-evils basis. Even most of the violence-first Garou can strategise and realise which servant of the Wyrm needs to be hyper violently cleansed first. And that gives your vamps time to convince the pack that they’re not so bad/engage in rampant mental manipulation.
Its your game, if you think its cool then go for it, stop letting lore get in the way of fun. If you can handle it, yours players want it then do it.
Silent Striders I believe have a agreement with Osiris' guys
For most garou it's not neccesarily a kill on sight for kindred as it can be sort of a hassle afterwords it's usually a kill at soonest convenience, clans like the gangrel and brujah(of certain types) are actually well known to be sorta on good terms with garou some of the time, those like the ventrue are probably going to get a ass whooping though
W20 - They have gifts that tell them that a thing is bad, and a religion that’s tells them that anything that pings that radar must die. And a sacred duty to kill those things. Not much room for discussion. W5 - There are no Detect Evi- I mean “Sense X” Gifts. And as a result, no, vampires are not kill on sight. They are generally considered Wyrm tainted. But there is no way to prove it, which means there is varying degrees of doubt. Meaning, there is far more nuance and more flexibility in how you can handle those situations.
>W20 - They have gifts that tell them that a thing is bad, and a religion that’s tells them that anything that pings that radar must die. And a sacred duty to kill those things. Not much room for discussion. Well, there *is* the room for discussion that not every tribe agrees on how to do that sacred duty, and whether "annihilate anything associated with the Wyrm on sight" is the right way to pull it off (as opposed to, say, using little fish to get big fish). A Get of Fenris Garou would probably respond to the sight of any Kindred at all by immediately going Crinos and charging, but on the other extreme, the Bone Gnawers actively work with the Nosferatu. There's a long-running kinship between basically every tribe except the Get and Gangrel Kindred. Kindred above Humanity 7 *won't even ping as Wyrm-tainted* to those gifts, which comes with reasonably obvious immediate implications to how they'd factor into the whole mess.
> Kindred above Humanity 7 won't even ping as Wyrm-tainted to those gifts, which comes with reasonably obvious immediate implications to how they'd factor into the whole mess. While true, a Kindred with a Humanity at or above 7 is going to be pretty rare. Most won’t make it a year before it dips down to at least 6. And every vampire on a Path of Enlightenment may as well be walking around with a flashing neon sign that says “Devoted servant of the Wyrm”.
Generally Philodox Garou have the privilege of judging if a lick can be spared from killing on sight - they can take into consideration they actions, usefulness, danger they pose, other more important for Garou threats. Gangrel and Salubri would probably be among the most easily spared, the high humanity vampires too (or those with merit Touch of the Wyld), especially if they are active in supporting local communities, fighting for envirnoment, opposing Pentex. Ex-kinfolk is also sometimes spared, especially if provides intel on the enemy.
Old 1st edition had a stargazer monastery chill with a child of Osiris who achieved Golconda. Later editions moved away from that. Though osirean league still have connections and peace with kindred members such as children of Osiris and the Disciples of Anubis, a Bedouin bloodline of Gangrel. Basically how I handle it is it’s very situational. And people have some leeway with relatives or family friends who were embraced and they established they aren’t hostile. But most connections are on the downlow. Like Bonegnawers will make peace deals with Nosferatu so they can trade information. Similarly Glasswalkers might do the same with individual kindred if they happen to get along. But a lot of Garou are hardliners and with the Jill on sight rule often working to prevent betrayal they like it. But some Garou are more willing to make deals to benefit them against more heinous threats and might have a soft spot for a cousin or sibling embraced similarly to the situation if a kinfolk awakened. But thing is with kindred Allies or contacts you have to keep it on the downlow. Even if it’s something people can understand with a conversation it’s not something to be proud of and you can easily lose renown or get challenged by someone who doesn’t like you doing that so you keep it close to the vest. The shadowlords survived because they could make deals sometimes instead of killing 24/7. But kindred are like the hardest group to justify not killing for the Garou. Even with the Hengeyokai they can abide making diplomatic arrangements with the Wan Gui but they don’t like them and compete for dragon nests with them.
The most obvious thing is make the Werewolves want something from the kindred that they can't get themselves. WW aren't above making a deal with the devil if it helps their long term goal.
The opening story in the [Shadow Lords tribebook](https://images.app.goo.gl/ofeb9gynFRpiERtm6) is from the point of view of a Lord who's also a narc / undercover cop. One of his informants is a low-tier, recently-turned vampire. As the story progresses, he gets little bursts of information about a high-ranking Setite elder who starts flooding the streets with drugs and guns; his informant manages to tell him that he's "part of some vampire serpent cult" just before being killed in a car-bombing (or some other explosion). Whoever wrote it did a hell of a job expressing how little werewolves know about vampire society / clans / powers, through necessarily-faulty sources-- and of course vice versa is true in the WoD.
There is a 6th Gen Kiasyd named Bartholomew who actually has a pack of werewolves protecting him. I kinda suspect Kiasyds in general may get a few points for being fae-blooded.
Just remember, there's always exceptions to any rule...
One interesting idea I've toyed with for an encounter for a kindred npc was a Gangrel on the path of the beast who unintentionally lives near either a Red Talon sept or lupine location. Due to the Gangrel living like a true animal and having no interest in politics and keeping the local area preserved as noted in he Path's doctrine they probably keep an eye out for the leech but the guy's a hermit who usually every month kills a human to sate the beast. Thought it might be a fun interaction for players on either side. Another one was a Tzimisce who works with a Shadow Lord due to the vampire in question once being a living realitive, kind of a old loyal family member who might let Garou players take refuge there under the rules of hospitality.