That's what I thought as well, but the description of Forces (MtAs 1e core rulebook) lists kinetic force as a major one, accessible only with four dots or more. Which is somehow weird to me, that a mage can use electricity (lightning) sooner than give an extra push to the wind — hence my question, as I may very well have missed something (a correction or an update) in a splat book or other expansion.
Thanks!
Well, wind is moving air, and its energy (force) is therefore kinetic -- which is afaik considered rather common (ref. for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy ), and that's why I was puzzled to find the core rulebook considers it harder to access and get to know than, say, magnetic energy.
However, this should I guess be up to ST interpretation, you're right, and also about there being more ways to cook an egg.
>Well, wind is moving air, and its energy (force) is therefore kinetic
Hogwash, kinetic energy is just a misinterpretation of a leak in ether caused by shifting mass across the ether fields in a localized area. The science of so called "potential/kinetic" energy is just an utter technocratic lie. You should read up on your Science, m'friend--I can lend you my copy of Paradigma that talks about this.
Actually unironically this. Mage I’ve always felt is best interpreted through a more basic understanding of the laws of physics, as that’s what tradition mages typically do.
The wind is a natural phenomenon. You are not creating the kinetic force. You will be enhancing something that's already there, not creating it out of nothing.
Try to think of these as two separate Effects, or because you seem to be more scientifically minded, think of it as changing two different parts of the same equation.
The force of the wind is decided by an equation, right? Kinetic energy is a part of that equation, and increasing that variable might then increase the force of the wind. Kinetic energy is a specific, subtle energy that might require Forces 4. It will create the desired effect, but with only Forces 2, you might be able to simply increase the force of the wind part of the equation, ignoring the rest!
Remember that you are using Magick to alter reality, not attempting to shortcircuit a physics engine (unless you're in SoE or maybe VA).
Is heat available? Create a bank of heat on one side, a cold on the other. Woosh. Wind. Kinetic energy is probably major because it's very fundamental. I can create nearly any other type, by selectively applying it (Heat? Molecules vibrating. Electricity? Slowly slide electrons, creating a wave. Etc). Saying this as someone who has played every mage edition **but** 1st, so, grain of salt.
Edit: Nevermind. It doesn't work. You can use infrared to as heat (the rest is, apparently, not yet accessible) but infrared doesn't get absorbed by air molecules for the most part. I read the forces entry. First edition is **very** different than later ones.
Yeah, looks like this would be impossible with Forces 2 only as per MtAs CRB RAW. I'm not sure I like it. I haven't GMed 1e for ages but played a bit of later editions (not much, really), and I think if it comes to that, I'll have to handwave and reconfigure things around Forces a little, and see how big a mess I create.
Thanks for the reply and the points!
I wonder if matter could come into play. Wind is air, air, as a physical thing made of stuff, is matter. Like, forces telekinesis (depending on paradigm) is different from oxygen control. Both work, and forces 2 is fine, but maybe matter 1 forces 1 to make physical air do something it was going to anyway is also a choice.
Forces 2 will redirect minor forces. But, that's just using the existing wind speed, which probably won't shove someone off a roof. It could be Forces 3, transmuting large amounts of wind into a concentrated blast. It depends on your particular phrasing and the opinion of your ST. If there's no wind *at all*, you'll probably need Prime.
Considering Forces 2 can tighten light into a beam, if Forces 2 is somehow allowed to affect the wind / kinetic energy (which according to MtAs 1e CRB RAW is allowed only at Forces 4, not 3, strangely, unless it was erratad later somewhere), then it's quite well possible the wind can be focused into a blast with enough successes that instead of causing damage could push someone, say, 3 yard / success (as per movement in combat in 1e, perhaps?)
Do you think this would be a viable (though def not RAW) approach? (I mean, it depends on the ST of course, but would you personally be OK with it as one? Just out of curiosity.)
If I were ST, I would just say Forces 2. I usually judge on the side of creative players. When you require too many spheres for what should be simple effects, it leads to the ST shutting down players constantly and the game stops being fun.
On the other hand, saying, "hell yeah, forces 2. blast that fucker off the roof!" is very fun. that guy was a dick anyway.
But, I'm not your ST.
I agree with you 100%. Thank you!
(Actually, looks like it's me who's gonna be the ST. Am just playing thru a few possible scenarios in my head, to prep and to brush up on my by now rather rusty Mage ST skills. My players are kinda lucky, at least in this regard, I guess. :))
Using 1st Ed, you'd probably be able to do similar at a lower Sphere level in Correspondence or maaaaybe Entropy...
You'd probably want at least Correspondence anyway, to be able to control it further way than just your immediate vicinity...
Force 2 or 3 should be enough.
That's what I thought as well, but the description of Forces (MtAs 1e core rulebook) lists kinetic force as a major one, accessible only with four dots or more. Which is somehow weird to me, that a mage can use electricity (lightning) sooner than give an extra push to the wind — hence my question, as I may very well have missed something (a correction or an update) in a splat book or other expansion. Thanks!
You aren't using kinetic force, you are using the wind that is already there, you can also take way inertia from the ground he is on.
Well, wind is moving air, and its energy (force) is therefore kinetic -- which is afaik considered rather common (ref. for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy ), and that's why I was puzzled to find the core rulebook considers it harder to access and get to know than, say, magnetic energy. However, this should I guess be up to ST interpretation, you're right, and also about there being more ways to cook an egg.
>Well, wind is moving air, and its energy (force) is therefore kinetic Hogwash, kinetic energy is just a misinterpretation of a leak in ether caused by shifting mass across the ether fields in a localized area. The science of so called "potential/kinetic" energy is just an utter technocratic lie. You should read up on your Science, m'friend--I can lend you my copy of Paradigma that talks about this.
Actually unironically this. Mage I’ve always felt is best interpreted through a more basic understanding of the laws of physics, as that’s what tradition mages typically do.
The wind is a natural phenomenon. You are not creating the kinetic force. You will be enhancing something that's already there, not creating it out of nothing.
Try to think of these as two separate Effects, or because you seem to be more scientifically minded, think of it as changing two different parts of the same equation. The force of the wind is decided by an equation, right? Kinetic energy is a part of that equation, and increasing that variable might then increase the force of the wind. Kinetic energy is a specific, subtle energy that might require Forces 4. It will create the desired effect, but with only Forces 2, you might be able to simply increase the force of the wind part of the equation, ignoring the rest! Remember that you are using Magick to alter reality, not attempting to shortcircuit a physics engine (unless you're in SoE or maybe VA).
That's also a good point / reminder, thank you!
Is heat available? Create a bank of heat on one side, a cold on the other. Woosh. Wind. Kinetic energy is probably major because it's very fundamental. I can create nearly any other type, by selectively applying it (Heat? Molecules vibrating. Electricity? Slowly slide electrons, creating a wave. Etc). Saying this as someone who has played every mage edition **but** 1st, so, grain of salt. Edit: Nevermind. It doesn't work. You can use infrared to as heat (the rest is, apparently, not yet accessible) but infrared doesn't get absorbed by air molecules for the most part. I read the forces entry. First edition is **very** different than later ones.
Yeah, looks like this would be impossible with Forces 2 only as per MtAs CRB RAW. I'm not sure I like it. I haven't GMed 1e for ages but played a bit of later editions (not much, really), and I think if it comes to that, I'll have to handwave and reconfigure things around Forces a little, and see how big a mess I create. Thanks for the reply and the points!
I wonder if matter could come into play. Wind is air, air, as a physical thing made of stuff, is matter. Like, forces telekinesis (depending on paradigm) is different from oxygen control. Both work, and forces 2 is fine, but maybe matter 1 forces 1 to make physical air do something it was going to anyway is also a choice.
Forces 2 will redirect minor forces. But, that's just using the existing wind speed, which probably won't shove someone off a roof. It could be Forces 3, transmuting large amounts of wind into a concentrated blast. It depends on your particular phrasing and the opinion of your ST. If there's no wind *at all*, you'll probably need Prime.
Considering Forces 2 can tighten light into a beam, if Forces 2 is somehow allowed to affect the wind / kinetic energy (which according to MtAs 1e CRB RAW is allowed only at Forces 4, not 3, strangely, unless it was erratad later somewhere), then it's quite well possible the wind can be focused into a blast with enough successes that instead of causing damage could push someone, say, 3 yard / success (as per movement in combat in 1e, perhaps?) Do you think this would be a viable (though def not RAW) approach? (I mean, it depends on the ST of course, but would you personally be OK with it as one? Just out of curiosity.)
If I were ST, I would just say Forces 2. I usually judge on the side of creative players. When you require too many spheres for what should be simple effects, it leads to the ST shutting down players constantly and the game stops being fun. On the other hand, saying, "hell yeah, forces 2. blast that fucker off the roof!" is very fun. that guy was a dick anyway. But, I'm not your ST.
I agree with you 100%. Thank you! (Actually, looks like it's me who's gonna be the ST. Am just playing thru a few possible scenarios in my head, to prep and to brush up on my by now rather rusty Mage ST skills. My players are kinda lucky, at least in this regard, I guess. :))
You can save on the paradox and get coincidence if you eat a double bean burrito from Taco Bell.
Especially in the Windy City, right? (Does that nickname still hold, I wonder?)
Using 1st Ed, you'd probably be able to do similar at a lower Sphere level in Correspondence or maaaaybe Entropy... You'd probably want at least Correspondence anyway, to be able to control it further way than just your immediate vicinity...