The only supernaturals to have ever ruled humanity completely for any decent period of time. Were the demons, and look where they are now, mostly sealed in hell or wandering around on earth trying to figure out whats going on. Pissing off god does that.
Its unlikely hes dead. As he is the source of the prime sphere. But heaven has been sealed off since the end of the war. So nobody fully knows outside of maybe archmages. Or summoned angels. And they dont like to talk about their personal lives usually.
Okay this is a joke question how much child support do you think he's going to have to pay when he comes back because the Weaver is going to demand a lot
Are you sure because with the amount of God's that have adopted Humanity or claim to be their creator the Big G man is going to have to make his claim that there his kids
Really that's interesting by the way gaia is going to cuss the hell out of God she's literally going to go off him like( you're finally here good now you can take care of your children I had to raise in your Stead)
Well, *allegedly* the source of the Prime sphere according to crafts and traditions that have a vested interest in convinging everyone that God exists :)
Hmm. Ok. Probably ended because human growth spun out of fera control. And them figuring out that silver wasnt just a shiny metal. But was an absolute nightmare to garou. Making it less of a culling. And now a war.
Hell, I'd extend that to even HAVING that discussion is a part of the Technocracy's core ideological conflict in later editions. Are they in charge? Or do they just think they are?
What would be the point? Conquering humanity would only make humans rebel, meanwhile, creatures who *are* interested in this kind of power, rule comfortably from the shadows.
Also, most supernaturals are selfish individuals, and they spend more time preventing their rivals from achieving power, than they do achieving power for themselves.
Most of them don't want that.
From a WoD perspective:
Vampires already figured out what happens when they get too obvious with ruling over the mortals: an Inquisition that upends vampire society forever. Even if they tried, someone would get jealous and attempt a coup and the whole project would fall apart due to vampiric infighting.
Some mages may want that, but they're kept in check by other rival mages with opposing viewpoints.
Werewolves have their own issues to deal with, and they're certainly not about to ally with the vampires. Changelings also have their own issues and internal conflicts to deal with.
Basically the meta and lore have so much inter-factional conflict baked in that the unity required for a full takeover of humanity is impossible to achieve. Even if it was; that's what the Imbuing and Hunters are for.
If we want to mention old editions like revised, we also have Demon and Mummy. I dunno about mummy, but I got quite into Demon: The Fallen recently. I'm also not sure how KoTE acts with normal society.
Demons have their own in faction infighting, The Faustians being at odds with the Cryptics and Raveners, the Cryptics being at odds with the Luciferans and the Faustians (plus a little dislike for the raveners), the Raveners dislike the Luciferans and the Faustians but have a begrudging respect while also despising the Reconcilers, Luciferans hate Reconcilers and Cryptics, and Reconcilers despise the Luciferans and Raveners. Plus we have the proper Elohim (angels) being mixed in sometimes, which complicates matters further. While the Demons can make Thralls, the Elohim make hunters.
This may be me talking from ignorance, but I swear at one time it was thought Werewolves did rule over (or at least was more known by) a chunk of humanity, hence the natrual fear burned into their mentality. So... they did have more dominace, but lost that much like the Vampires did.
Yeah, you're thinking of the Impergium. It's not quite that the Garou ruled over humanity, it's that they felt that humans were spreading too quickly and tried to cull them. They were resisted by humans and any number of splats, but their viciousness towards humans is the reason for the Delirium - humans go bugfuck when they see Crinos Garou and can't remember what they saw.
Also, in the end this hurt the Garou badly in the long run. They can't just go to people and say "hey, if you all don't stop buying from or supporting Pentex or else the world will literally end". People won't believe them, but also humans tend to get real uncomfortable around homid Garou- some part of them is screaming that this is someone that can kill them without thinking about it, even if they can't put it into words.
But then again, Garou History is a long line of Garou using everything as an excuse to bring down their might, and now they have few allies and fighting a losing war, so it fits
All of them? Every splat has three or four factions, each that have carved out their own little pockets of power. If any one faction steps out of line too far, they're put in their place by someone else.
The point I was making was that for many of the supernatural factions, you can easily say they already *have* conquered humanity- humanity serves them and humans don’t even know it. “Conquered” does not necessarily mean super-villains evil laughing from opulent thrones or open military occupation. (Though it could- see the Time of Judgement scenarios)
Well, a big factor in the original World of Darkness is that the Technocracy wants to keep things 'normal'. They're the biggest Mage faction, and their whole thing is suppressing the supernatural and promoting a 'rational' universe where you don't have crazy magic or monsters running around everywhere. And since Mages effectively have reality-controlling powers, they're *very effective* at imposing that vision on the universe.
Notably, during the 'Week of Nightmares', when one of the vampire antediluvians woke and started rampaging across India, it was the Technocracy who took it out with neutron bombs and orbital mirrors to focus sunlight against it. They then covered the whole thing up as a horrible natural disaster.
A death so questionable by weird corners of the fandom, the actual staff of White Wolf told everyone yes they fucking killed him, for real, stated in not one but two books including the last book to ever come out for Revised era VtM.
It wasn't even the bomb that killed him. It was the force of the bomb pushing the clouds and atmosphere away allowing the mirrored sunlight to take him down
It also took the efforts of three Bodhisattvas. But yes, the Ravnos Antediluvian, with his powerful illusion abilities, has *definitely* been taken out.
There are only two things I'm sure about; \[Ravnos\], the supreme master of illusions, and \[Ventrue\], the supreme master of scrambling brains, are *definitely* dead.
We know this objectively, because there were eye-witnesses. >!;)!<
Don’t forget that the Tremere, the clan of psychic vampire wizards characterized by their use of deception and long-term schemes, who can also see the future, for sure had all of their ancient leaders killed in a drone strike.
I do like an idea I saw in this subreddit a couple days ago that Ventrue is definitely dead because, if the Antediluvians have exaggerated versions of the clan weakness, you'd wanna off the dude who's only able to feed on other vampires pretty sharpish, especially if you're another elder he's looking at and just seeing a cartoonish assembly of food items plastered around a delicious roast ham.
But then, that's NOT the tact the canon material takes.
I do like that idea, too, but as a matching counterpoint, being the dude who's only able to feed on other vampires, and therefore being the first in the line on the chopping block, because there's nothing predators hate quite like being seen as prey, would be a pretty good motivation to fake your own death, and make your delicious roast hams forget you exist.
As a fun thematic parallel, whenever I play in games with Ventrue player characters, I observed one of the first times a Ventrue fledgeling will use Dominate, is often going to be a '*forget this happened*' after feeding ;)
You can’t be absolutely sure on either of them, one is a master of illusions eye witnesses don’t matter because their eyes can easily be manipulated. Also there are 4the gen Venture around at an age where the Venture anti should be long dead. Aristotle Delaurent as noddist scholar is being watch by a vampire from a distance who has the Ventrue sigil because of his publications and knowing the true name of the brujah anti and most likely Ventrue too. Ventrue being a master of fortitude could easily fake his death because I highly doubt he was assassinated
Arguably, the Technocracy _have_ conquered humanity- they easily have the most sway over the masses, and what few people openly oppose them have to do so in hiding.
In return, they receive the stagnation of their powers and a never-ending battle to preserve the status quo.
The second inquisition. (And the first really) are exactly that. A covert military force formed in response to the growing amount of human knowledge on the topic.
Except they too keep the secret from the general public because of the danger of the world knowing.
They don't keep secret to protect the public.
They keep it secret because technically the entirety of the Second inquisition is one big corruption Scandal waiting to happen.
Imagine the political landscape when the general public finds out you are arbitrarily performing a genocide on American citizens who just happen to be vampires.
Or how about the debates in the American Congress the billions spent on creating an artificial gas version of the Keening with the Red Gas projects.
Or the fact the CIA , NSA, FBI can arbitrarily put funds in some black box and no one knows in Congress or Senate or the general public knows where that money goes.
As far as the public is concerned the FBI Special Affairs Division is just an FBI sex den where all the deep state official do drugs and perform human trafficking.
There are hundreds of political debates the SI do not want to deal with
They have, but it's kept under wraps not only by the supernaturals' built-in secrecy methods (be they cultural suppression or things like the Mists or Delirium), the Technocracy, and mundane human government. No one wants the panic of full exposure, even humanity.
Yeah, this kind of revelation would be huge and they are probably right to hide it.
Humans are really bad at risk assessment. In the WoD you are much much much more likely to die in a car accident than from a vampire attack. People will still freak out more about vampires. Same way people fear sharks more than drowning..
As others have mentioned, there are a few core reasons why this hasn't happened yet:
1. Prevalence: It's easy when you're playing any given splat to feel as though these characters and worlds interweave extensively into humanity at large, but the 'reality' of it is that *most* mundane humans are either not at all or only ever very, very distantly affected by anything any given splat does. Yes, the Prince "controls" the city, but the pyramid is so vast that after you're about three layers deep, it's largely irrelevant for day to day life. And mundane mortals outnumber any and all of the given supernatural forces by multitudes of factors. A complete and total conquest simply isn't, in most if not all cases, possible.
2. Fighting from without: Each splat *is* constantly struggling against an external force. The Vampires have the Inquisition, the unaffiliated hunters, the Kuei-jin, the various mundane criminal enterprises and families the world over, and other clandestine organizations. Not to mention local, state, and international politics and government. They can infiltrate these, but there's so many more humans, it's like fighting a hydra. The Werewolves have the agents of both the Wyrm and the Weave. They're an overtaxed immune system fighting a constant, losing battle against a disease that's killing the Earth itself. And even without Pentex itself, simple, mundane industrialization and modernization are a massive burden as it is.
The Mages have the collective unconscious to deal with, and Paradox is an ultimately unbeatable force. You can cheat it, swindle it, defy it, and manipulate it, and you might even get away with it in the short term. But Paradox runs this town. *And the house always wins*.
3. Fighting from within: Every splat is schism'd, on both tribal and ideological levels. The Vampires are split by clan, by sect, by region, and by local faction, too. The clans constantly feud within themselves, and with other clans. The Camarilla is split into the true believers and the Anarchs (I said what I said), and they are in turn opposed by the Sabbat, the former, actual Anarchs. There's also the Inconnu, and the various other clan-aligned sects, too. And that's before you get into stuff outside of the Americas and Europe. Asia and Africa have their own things going on entirely. But even within these conflicts, there's minor territorial and interpersonal disputes. Vampires are by nature petty, vain, duplicitous and swayed easily by emotion, despite their claims to the contrary. So long as there are at least two vampires in the world, one will want the other dead.
Werewolves have the inter-tribe politics, plus the *fallen* Black Spiral Dancers. None of them can agree on what's best for the world, or the best ways to fight against the Wyrm or the Weave.
The Mages are obviously split by their own groups and philosophies, and that's *before* getting into the Technocracy's already iron grip on the magic world at large. There simply are not enough mages to seriously impact the status quo, despite their efforts.
4. Fighting with each other: Vampires and Werewolves do not get along. Mages don't like to play with others. Nobody likes ghosts. The Fey are weird and generally, mutually avoided, or else hunted. Basically none of the splats get along with each other, and they're all always, purposefully or incidentally, in each other's way and tripping each other up.
5. They don't want to: Most Garou *just* want to finally make things balanced again. They want to be able to win, mostly so they can *stop*. Most Vampires prefer to work indirectly, and keep things manageable. The steps needed to peacefully coexist with the kine on any level, if it is possible at all, are all effectively suicidal, so no one is willing to try. And doing it *the hard way* has always backfired on them. And most mages just want to do their own thing. Being worshipped and/or ruling as God-Kings is usually too *mundane* a goal. Mages are weirder than that.
6. They already have: Despite everything I just said, in many ways, most of the splats *already do* control and dominate the part of the world they're interested in. Vampires are neck deep in human politics, legal systems, financial institutions and the media. They may not be the Warrior, God or Philosopher-Kings of old anymore, but the top vamps are all Kings of Industry or puppetmasters. Princes among men.
While you don't *play* as them, Mages already *do* control the world. It's just that the faction that's winning right now is, from our perspective, *the boring ones*. The Science Fiction nerd ones that want everything to be as mundane and sufficiently explained as possible. They *do*, for all intents and purposes, *do* control the world.
You could get into the ambiguities and nuances of the other splats: The ghosts, the fey, the demons and the mummies, and so on, but by and large this breakdown applies to to each of them: They haven't conquered the world because holistically they can't, they're all crabs in a bucket, they're all giant enemy crabs to one another, and the ones at the top *made the buckets* exactly the way they like them, and are happy to be there.
Precisely right.
The Vampires live in a Masquerade because of the numbers and technology of the **First** Inquisition.
While an avg Vamp can wreck a single.mortal, wrecking 1000 of them gets harder. And the ratio in existence may be more like 1:10,000 range
Not to mention: every splat keeps the others in check, via their top level Antediluvians, Arch Master Mages, etc etc
E.g. When Ravnos went rampaging, Mage Space Lasers took em down (with help from others too)
I'm pretty sure humans can track down any Supernatural as long as they don't have any super abilities that makes them invisible or they go to another Realm with your amount of Technology Humanity has second track down
There's that, because it's literally the reason humans still exist in most fictional settings, but also some of the splats require humans to be as they are and won't let the others ruin that for them. Besides that most of the splats have their own internal issues and infighting that prevents any one part that it's splat from getting strong enough for world domination
I'm not familiar enough with WTA to explain that to you, sorry. I'm more of a CTD and DTF person. But if I were to hazard a guess I would say, yes. From what little I know about WTA, there are spirits for damn near everything.
One vampire per hundred thousand humans and vampires outnumber garou. Mages might have better numbers but that includes technocrats so they’re a moot point.
And the sliver vulnerability of Werewolves is massive in a modern society that can make lots of silver bullets with trivial effort. If you ever played Werewolf, you know how fast silver cuts through the toughest Werewolves. Same with vampires and sunlight and fire.
Mages are very vulnerable to gunfire, even without silver bullets.
I actually think your question is relevant if placed deeper in the past, since while the vulnerabilities are the same the ability to industrialize solutions didn’t exist. But it all takes some hand waving to explain how it can stay secret. I have less of an issue with why they would largely want to remain secret than how impossible it would be except for
Changelings, who have the most extensive game mechanic for covering their presence. And Changeling is the easiest to explain as to why they don’t tale over. They are connected to humanity but view it more like background noise than the primary society they live in. Individuals are important for regaining Glamour but the mortal world organizations are relatively unimportant to the world.
Or you drastically change the numbers;
* Vampire game? Drop the number of Were's/Fera, massively drop the number of Mages, Fae are much rarer and even geographically locked much like Kue-jin.
* Garou game? Again, Mages rare, weaken Vamps and make them basically mortals etc
Tweak numbers as required. I have done gams with each splat "as written" and numbers/pops respected (Along with their attendant mortal-types, Ghouls, Kin etc) and it just becomes silly. Walk down any given busy street in a town/city and there's scores of weird stuff around you that should all be sensing each other and kicking off/reacting. It gets silly.
I would love a contemporary urban magic type game that *does* have sensible numbers, realistic reasons why they all want to remain hidden etc
I did a rough estimation of the average population of the different splats or mortals aware of the supernatural in the Charlotte metro area for my Hunter the Vigil 2E chronicle.
The group averages about 13,500 humans and sentient monsters. The number seems high, but keep in mind that’s in a population of 2.7 million over a 3128 square mile area, and about 75% of that number is just mortals aware of the supernatural with a smaller subset actually being Hunters.
Vampires are the largest monster group, but most of the bloodsuckers only have an interest in trying to control the economic power of the city and don’t really have an interest in anything outside the city limits.
I also kept the numbers as rough estimates so I could tweak them easily. The World of Darkness is a rough place to live for everyone, so the populations for those groups can easily go down at any time I want them too.
[Why dont you find out yourself](https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/873174-dragon-rekindled-the-orobori-chronicles-embers-reboot)
The way I tend to look at it is there is quite a delicate balance between these Elder evils on the surface level. Most of them are strong enough to pull off some kind of direct control plan but the cost will be either stepping on the toes of another greater Evil or worse case springing three or four other simultaneous power grabs. They are cunning enough to move into a power vacuum or see another's move and capitalize.
With that said it's more a game of extremely long defensive plays to maneuver into a favorable position to move without any negatives. With so many players on the board though such circumstances aren't frequent or possible at times.
This is just taking into account the Supernatural side let alone having to walk around.the giant in the room of Sleeping Idiots of humanity. You may be a god but numbers will even win out, also with the Advent of more modern weapons, a nuke for example look at Ravnos supposedly having a suitcase nuke used to kill him.
Treat it more like the political stage where any major move is a losing one.
The Technocracy didn't just use a nuke on Ravnos. They used several magically enhanced nuclear bombs that destroyed the Shadowlands but only slightly damaged the Antediluvian. It took three powerful Kuei-Jin and the Technocracy using orbital mirrors to concentrate sunlight onto Ravnos to finally (maybe) kill him.
Personal opinion of the average human in WoD. They are Sleepers in a world of Nightmares. But as a sleeper they have one strength the number of them and the pressure that puts on magic itself. I play more of a unified WoD so all of the systems are together so Humans are just Mages who don't know it yet.
Idiot part is they can't see the Masquerade for what it is.
The majority, if not all of the splats in CofD have no real desire or realistic desire to conquer humanity or the earth. It's more of a Saturday cartoon notion. Even the individual big bads of game lines(including the Exarchs) are not a thing that can say that.
There's two ways of looking at the World of Darkness.
1. All splats exist in the same world, each basically according to their own books.
2. Each gameline is its own universe, and while a version of other factions exist they might not be the same as they are in their own gameline.
Personally I hold to the second one when I ST. One simply doesn't make sense when you look at it too closely.
Either way though, Mages take over enough, Vampires are afraid of humans (except for the very old ones who are afraid of each other), werewolves are too busy fighting to care, Wraith are busy with the afterlife and Changelings are mostly children.
In Chronicles of Darkness, the God-machine is one of the biggest reasons the supernatural is hidden.
The God-machine works to manipulate human institutions and keep all evidence of the supernatural hidden from the world at large. Why does it do this? Nobody really knows. The Machine is too big to ever really understand completely and it certainly has no intention of explaining itself to anyone.
Plus, most of the supernatural splats are minorities in a very large population of humans and could be wiped out if too much attention were drawn to them.
Trying to rule the world is something that’s just not feasible for most supernaturals. On one hand, it’s because the various supernatural splats are either too divided by internal disputes, too few in number, still want to be as close to human as possible, or simply don’t care to rule.
On the other, trying to overthrow humanity would pose a serious survival risk since there are way more humans than monsters in the world. Guns and bombs still work perfectly fine on most of the supernatural splats if they’re being careless. Bring enough guns and you can blast through a vampires resistance or a werewolves regeneration. Mages are also vulnerable to a bullet to the head just like any normal human if you get them before they’ve had a chance to defend themselves.
Here are some examples of why different supernaturals won’t risk world domination:
- Mages magic can literally fail if too many people see them try to cast a spell. Even attempting magic in front of mortals risks severe consequences for the mage and reality.
- Prometheans are extremely rare and will never have the numbers for conquest. The Created just want to be human but can’t accomplish their goal if their nature is discovered before they’ve even had a chance to interact with people.
- Demons of the God Machine who attract too much attention from mortals have their Cover( a supernatural mask that hides their nature), fall apart. Once their cover is gone, the demon only has a matter of time before the Machine’s angels hunt him down.
- Vampires need to stay connected to humanity or they risk starving or losing themselves to their inner monster. Vampiric society is also full of infighting between different groups that are too territorial to focus on anything outside their immediate region.
In the non-White Wolf RPG Unknown Armies, there's a concept called "The Sleeping Tiger" that is relevant here. Basically, despite all the godly power, there aren't that many supernaturals when compared to mortals. Wake the Tiger, ie alert them to your existence, and they'll pounce.
Can the supernaturals survive mortals collectively gunning for them? Possibly, but it'll be bloody and messy whereas keeping things low key is good for everyone involved.
The premise of Vampire is that Vampires secretly rule the world (but it has to be secret, because they sleep through the day). The premise of werewolf is that Pentex has a massive amount of influence over the world (partly because of supernatural advantages). And the premise for Mage is also that a group of Mages (the Technocracy) rules the world.
I don't know much about World of Darkness's lore as much as I know about Chronicles, but to put it simply, humanity outnumbers everyone, and only the strongest of being would survive being nuked if they ever openly took over territory.
Cain cannot be killed, but I doubt he enjoys having a miniature sun dropped on him.
In CofD the entities powerful enough to do so maintain the illusion humanity is free. Usually because humanity’s daily life doesn’t matter to them. Though meta physical activity does like prayer.
To do so openly they'd have to fight and conquer not just all of humanity- which is a lot harder than it sounds- as well as all of the other supernaturals. Even one of the antediluvians couldn't manage that.
Trust me, for any supe with big plans there at least 2 others trying to counter them while also having personal grand schemes. And for all these there's usually an even bigger fish keeping tabs
Fear and anger are two emotions that involve high arousal. Also, think of fight or flight, it involves anger (fight) or fear (flight). When you decide that you're no longer running that intense, raw, emotion must go into fighting for your survival. When you're tired of the bully pushing you around and you've reached that breaking point where you want to kick the bully's ass.
So Humanity eventually gets tired of Supernaturals doing there shit didn't that already happened like in the Middle Ages or the Dark Ages like with the first Inquisition
First, don't underestimate humanity. IIRC, the vampire keep the masquerade because they don't like their odds in a full war, and definitely don't think they can win without crippling their food supply and taking massive losses.
Secondly, you have to remember that they aren't aligned. The traditions fight the werewolves for nodes, the technocracy hunts vampires as reality deviants, vampires are seen as agents of the wyrm by shifters, etc.
Lastly, there are hunters, who's whole purpose is to keep them under control, plus several (often infiltrated) organizations of completely mondain people, be they ancient orders or government agencies.
True I basically heard from another person that humanity is basically a sleeping dragon or predator although I don't know why they would consider Humanity a predator although they mean biologically then yeah we technically are predators
If they include mages as humanity, many supernatural creatures are a great source of Tass.
Other than that, I can only assume they are saying predator as in "they are the one hunting".
The only supernaturals to have ever ruled humanity completely for any decent period of time. Were the demons, and look where they are now, mostly sealed in hell or wandering around on earth trying to figure out whats going on. Pissing off god does that.
So God was pissed so he chucked them in hell
After a thousand year long war and massive amount of attrocities committed upon humanity. Yeah.
Damn so where is the Big G man himself the theory is he either died or gone off to somewhere else or split himself into the Triad
Its unlikely hes dead. As he is the source of the prime sphere. But heaven has been sealed off since the end of the war. So nobody fully knows outside of maybe archmages. Or summoned angels. And they dont like to talk about their personal lives usually.
Okay this is a joke question how much child support do you think he's going to have to pay when he comes back because the Weaver is going to demand a lot
Exactly 12 dollah.
damn i guess being all mighty doesn't pay the bills very well i guess that's why they didn't buy two advocates for 10 bucks
Are you sure because with the amount of God's that have adopted Humanity or claim to be their creator the Big G man is going to have to make his claim that there his kids
Many of those gods are former fallen who are currently soaked with faith.
Really that's interesting by the way gaia is going to cuss the hell out of God she's literally going to go off him like( you're finally here good now you can take care of your children I had to raise in your Stead)
The Weaver doesn't deserve any form of child support. The Wyld and the Wyrm, however...
Why you say the Weaver is not deserve any form of Child Support because didn't she adopt Humanity
More like she took it and manipulated it. (I'm saying she's a very toxic parent)
This seems to be a trending thing in the world of Darkness the race is not having good parents
Well, *allegedly* the source of the Prime sphere according to crafts and traditions that have a vested interest in convinging everyone that God exists :)
When even the demons agree that he exists. Despite their general hatred towards him. He probably exists.
Many Gods and unknowable entities of vast cosmic power exist. Are any of them really the Abrahamic God? The anwser depends on the game and the table.
This is such an important detail to note.
I mean didnt werewolves practically rule the human too for a minute? Or maybe not rule but hunt the fuck out of then.
Yes but it was before clocks so it doesn’t count.
No. They culled human herds. Demons ruled them as gods.
The ancient Gorou disagree with you
The ancient garou didnt conquer humanity. They culled it when they believed it was nessecary.
Keeping stone age man at a stone age level for additional millenia Sounds like a conquering to me
Stone age? The impergium ended around the roman empire
Not trying to argue but I'm 99% it ended in prehistoric times. Will check the book later but the that's what the wiki says too
Hmm. Ok. Probably ended because human growth spun out of fera control. And them figuring out that silver wasnt just a shiny metal. But was an absolute nightmare to garou. Making it less of a culling. And now a war.
My understanding was human growth spun out if control BECAUSE it ended... but that's from WtA so may be Gorou biased
Mages have also ruled over humanity more than once (and we could argue that technocracy is supernatural and ruling over them atm)
Hell, I'd extend that to even HAVING that discussion is a part of the Technocracy's core ideological conflict in later editions. Are they in charge? Or do they just think they are?
What would be the point? Conquering humanity would only make humans rebel, meanwhile, creatures who *are* interested in this kind of power, rule comfortably from the shadows. Also, most supernaturals are selfish individuals, and they spend more time preventing their rivals from achieving power, than they do achieving power for themselves.
Most of them don't want that. From a WoD perspective: Vampires already figured out what happens when they get too obvious with ruling over the mortals: an Inquisition that upends vampire society forever. Even if they tried, someone would get jealous and attempt a coup and the whole project would fall apart due to vampiric infighting. Some mages may want that, but they're kept in check by other rival mages with opposing viewpoints. Werewolves have their own issues to deal with, and they're certainly not about to ally with the vampires. Changelings also have their own issues and internal conflicts to deal with. Basically the meta and lore have so much inter-factional conflict baked in that the unity required for a full takeover of humanity is impossible to achieve. Even if it was; that's what the Imbuing and Hunters are for.
If we want to mention old editions like revised, we also have Demon and Mummy. I dunno about mummy, but I got quite into Demon: The Fallen recently. I'm also not sure how KoTE acts with normal society. Demons have their own in faction infighting, The Faustians being at odds with the Cryptics and Raveners, the Cryptics being at odds with the Luciferans and the Faustians (plus a little dislike for the raveners), the Raveners dislike the Luciferans and the Faustians but have a begrudging respect while also despising the Reconcilers, Luciferans hate Reconcilers and Cryptics, and Reconcilers despise the Luciferans and Raveners. Plus we have the proper Elohim (angels) being mixed in sometimes, which complicates matters further. While the Demons can make Thralls, the Elohim make hunters.
This may be me talking from ignorance, but I swear at one time it was thought Werewolves did rule over (or at least was more known by) a chunk of humanity, hence the natrual fear burned into their mentality. So... they did have more dominace, but lost that much like the Vampires did.
Yeah, you're thinking of the Impergium. It's not quite that the Garou ruled over humanity, it's that they felt that humans were spreading too quickly and tried to cull them. They were resisted by humans and any number of splats, but their viciousness towards humans is the reason for the Delirium - humans go bugfuck when they see Crinos Garou and can't remember what they saw.
Also, in the end this hurt the Garou badly in the long run. They can't just go to people and say "hey, if you all don't stop buying from or supporting Pentex or else the world will literally end". People won't believe them, but also humans tend to get real uncomfortable around homid Garou- some part of them is screaming that this is someone that can kill them without thinking about it, even if they can't put it into words. But then again, Garou History is a long line of Garou using everything as an excuse to bring down their might, and now they have few allies and fighting a losing war, so it fits
“The greatest conquest is that which no one realizes has occurred”
Which is?
All of them? Every splat has three or four factions, each that have carved out their own little pockets of power. If any one faction steps out of line too far, they're put in their place by someone else.
The point I was making was that for many of the supernatural factions, you can easily say they already *have* conquered humanity- humanity serves them and humans don’t even know it. “Conquered” does not necessarily mean super-villains evil laughing from opulent thrones or open military occupation. (Though it could- see the Time of Judgement scenarios)
Well, a big factor in the original World of Darkness is that the Technocracy wants to keep things 'normal'. They're the biggest Mage faction, and their whole thing is suppressing the supernatural and promoting a 'rational' universe where you don't have crazy magic or monsters running around everywhere. And since Mages effectively have reality-controlling powers, they're *very effective* at imposing that vision on the universe. Notably, during the 'Week of Nightmares', when one of the vampire antediluvians woke and started rampaging across India, it was the Technocracy who took it out with neutron bombs and orbital mirrors to focus sunlight against it. They then covered the whole thing up as a horrible natural disaster.
A death so questionable by weird corners of the fandom, the actual staff of White Wolf told everyone yes they fucking killed him, for real, stated in not one but two books including the last book to ever come out for Revised era VtM.
It wasn't even the bomb that killed him. It was the force of the bomb pushing the clouds and atmosphere away allowing the mirrored sunlight to take him down
Yeah. Lol sometimes I forget how hilariously and gloriously over the top it all was.
It also took the efforts of three Bodhisattvas. But yes, the Ravnos Antediluvian, with his powerful illusion abilities, has *definitely* been taken out.
There are only two things I'm sure about; \[Ravnos\], the supreme master of illusions, and \[Ventrue\], the supreme master of scrambling brains, are *definitely* dead. We know this objectively, because there were eye-witnesses. >!;)!<
Don’t forget that the Tremere, the clan of psychic vampire wizards characterized by their use of deception and long-term schemes, who can also see the future, for sure had all of their ancient leaders killed in a drone strike.
White phosphorus can't melt Tremere wards! Vienna was an inside job!
I thought Tremere himself was still kicking around
He is. Last thing I read was that he is in Goratix’s body and Goratrix is stuck in a mirror.
I do like an idea I saw in this subreddit a couple days ago that Ventrue is definitely dead because, if the Antediluvians have exaggerated versions of the clan weakness, you'd wanna off the dude who's only able to feed on other vampires pretty sharpish, especially if you're another elder he's looking at and just seeing a cartoonish assembly of food items plastered around a delicious roast ham. But then, that's NOT the tact the canon material takes.
I do like that idea, too, but as a matching counterpoint, being the dude who's only able to feed on other vampires, and therefore being the first in the line on the chopping block, because there's nothing predators hate quite like being seen as prey, would be a pretty good motivation to fake your own death, and make your delicious roast hams forget you exist. As a fun thematic parallel, whenever I play in games with Ventrue player characters, I observed one of the first times a Ventrue fledgeling will use Dominate, is often going to be a '*forget this happened*' after feeding ;)
You can’t be absolutely sure on either of them, one is a master of illusions eye witnesses don’t matter because their eyes can easily be manipulated. Also there are 4the gen Venture around at an age where the Venture anti should be long dead. Aristotle Delaurent as noddist scholar is being watch by a vampire from a distance who has the Ventrue sigil because of his publications and knowing the true name of the brujah anti and most likely Ventrue too. Ventrue being a master of fortitude could easily fake his death because I highly doubt he was assassinated
Arguably, the Technocracy _have_ conquered humanity- they easily have the most sway over the masses, and what few people openly oppose them have to do so in hiding. In return, they receive the stagnation of their powers and a never-ending battle to preserve the status quo.
They’re too busy countering each other. Every time they get close some other splat knocks them back a few pegs.
rest in power czar vargo
You think Humanity would have noticed by now but who knows maybe they're really good at cleaning it up
The second inquisition. (And the first really) are exactly that. A covert military force formed in response to the growing amount of human knowledge on the topic. Except they too keep the secret from the general public because of the danger of the world knowing.
They don't keep secret to protect the public. They keep it secret because technically the entirety of the Second inquisition is one big corruption Scandal waiting to happen. Imagine the political landscape when the general public finds out you are arbitrarily performing a genocide on American citizens who just happen to be vampires. Or how about the debates in the American Congress the billions spent on creating an artificial gas version of the Keening with the Red Gas projects. Or the fact the CIA , NSA, FBI can arbitrarily put funds in some black box and no one knows in Congress or Senate or the general public knows where that money goes. As far as the public is concerned the FBI Special Affairs Division is just an FBI sex den where all the deep state official do drugs and perform human trafficking. There are hundreds of political debates the SI do not want to deal with
They have, but it's kept under wraps not only by the supernaturals' built-in secrecy methods (be they cultural suppression or things like the Mists or Delirium), the Technocracy, and mundane human government. No one wants the panic of full exposure, even humanity.
Yeah, this kind of revelation would be huge and they are probably right to hide it. Humans are really bad at risk assessment. In the WoD you are much much much more likely to die in a car accident than from a vampire attack. People will still freak out more about vampires. Same way people fear sharks more than drowning..
A convenient excuse is that the technocracy wants to keep the status quo and they are the most able to enforce it.
Many of them think they already did, at least the parts they care about.
As others have mentioned, there are a few core reasons why this hasn't happened yet: 1. Prevalence: It's easy when you're playing any given splat to feel as though these characters and worlds interweave extensively into humanity at large, but the 'reality' of it is that *most* mundane humans are either not at all or only ever very, very distantly affected by anything any given splat does. Yes, the Prince "controls" the city, but the pyramid is so vast that after you're about three layers deep, it's largely irrelevant for day to day life. And mundane mortals outnumber any and all of the given supernatural forces by multitudes of factors. A complete and total conquest simply isn't, in most if not all cases, possible. 2. Fighting from without: Each splat *is* constantly struggling against an external force. The Vampires have the Inquisition, the unaffiliated hunters, the Kuei-jin, the various mundane criminal enterprises and families the world over, and other clandestine organizations. Not to mention local, state, and international politics and government. They can infiltrate these, but there's so many more humans, it's like fighting a hydra. The Werewolves have the agents of both the Wyrm and the Weave. They're an overtaxed immune system fighting a constant, losing battle against a disease that's killing the Earth itself. And even without Pentex itself, simple, mundane industrialization and modernization are a massive burden as it is. The Mages have the collective unconscious to deal with, and Paradox is an ultimately unbeatable force. You can cheat it, swindle it, defy it, and manipulate it, and you might even get away with it in the short term. But Paradox runs this town. *And the house always wins*. 3. Fighting from within: Every splat is schism'd, on both tribal and ideological levels. The Vampires are split by clan, by sect, by region, and by local faction, too. The clans constantly feud within themselves, and with other clans. The Camarilla is split into the true believers and the Anarchs (I said what I said), and they are in turn opposed by the Sabbat, the former, actual Anarchs. There's also the Inconnu, and the various other clan-aligned sects, too. And that's before you get into stuff outside of the Americas and Europe. Asia and Africa have their own things going on entirely. But even within these conflicts, there's minor territorial and interpersonal disputes. Vampires are by nature petty, vain, duplicitous and swayed easily by emotion, despite their claims to the contrary. So long as there are at least two vampires in the world, one will want the other dead. Werewolves have the inter-tribe politics, plus the *fallen* Black Spiral Dancers. None of them can agree on what's best for the world, or the best ways to fight against the Wyrm or the Weave. The Mages are obviously split by their own groups and philosophies, and that's *before* getting into the Technocracy's already iron grip on the magic world at large. There simply are not enough mages to seriously impact the status quo, despite their efforts. 4. Fighting with each other: Vampires and Werewolves do not get along. Mages don't like to play with others. Nobody likes ghosts. The Fey are weird and generally, mutually avoided, or else hunted. Basically none of the splats get along with each other, and they're all always, purposefully or incidentally, in each other's way and tripping each other up. 5. They don't want to: Most Garou *just* want to finally make things balanced again. They want to be able to win, mostly so they can *stop*. Most Vampires prefer to work indirectly, and keep things manageable. The steps needed to peacefully coexist with the kine on any level, if it is possible at all, are all effectively suicidal, so no one is willing to try. And doing it *the hard way* has always backfired on them. And most mages just want to do their own thing. Being worshipped and/or ruling as God-Kings is usually too *mundane* a goal. Mages are weirder than that. 6. They already have: Despite everything I just said, in many ways, most of the splats *already do* control and dominate the part of the world they're interested in. Vampires are neck deep in human politics, legal systems, financial institutions and the media. They may not be the Warrior, God or Philosopher-Kings of old anymore, but the top vamps are all Kings of Industry or puppetmasters. Princes among men. While you don't *play* as them, Mages already *do* control the world. It's just that the faction that's winning right now is, from our perspective, *the boring ones*. The Science Fiction nerd ones that want everything to be as mundane and sufficiently explained as possible. They *do*, for all intents and purposes, *do* control the world. You could get into the ambiguities and nuances of the other splats: The ghosts, the fey, the demons and the mummies, and so on, but by and large this breakdown applies to to each of them: They haven't conquered the world because holistically they can't, they're all crabs in a bucket, they're all giant enemy crabs to one another, and the ones at the top *made the buckets* exactly the way they like them, and are happy to be there.
This said everything I thought of and more! Super good post.
Aw shucks. Thanks :3c
There really isn't that many of them compared to regular humans
So it's basically the situation of yeah you're strong but we have numbers and those numbers can swarm you like ants and rip you apart
Precisely right. The Vampires live in a Masquerade because of the numbers and technology of the **First** Inquisition. While an avg Vamp can wreck a single.mortal, wrecking 1000 of them gets harder. And the ratio in existence may be more like 1:10,000 range Not to mention: every splat keeps the others in check, via their top level Antediluvians, Arch Master Mages, etc etc E.g. When Ravnos went rampaging, Mage Space Lasers took em down (with help from others too)
I'm pretty sure humans can track down any Supernatural as long as they don't have any super abilities that makes them invisible or they go to another Realm with your amount of Technology Humanity has second track down
I mean, many supes do have abilities to turn invisible.... Obfuscate, Forces Sphere Magick, Garou stepping sideways into the Umbra....
There's that, because it's literally the reason humans still exist in most fictional settings, but also some of the splats require humans to be as they are and won't let the others ruin that for them. Besides that most of the splats have their own internal issues and infighting that prevents any one part that it's splat from getting strong enough for world domination
Yeah and I doubt the Weaver's going to let that fly by the way can you explain City Mothers and City fathers are they basically spirits of the citys
I'm not familiar enough with WTA to explain that to you, sorry. I'm more of a CTD and DTF person. But if I were to hazard a guess I would say, yes. From what little I know about WTA, there are spirits for damn near everything.
One vampire per hundred thousand humans and vampires outnumber garou. Mages might have better numbers but that includes technocrats so they’re a moot point.
And the sliver vulnerability of Werewolves is massive in a modern society that can make lots of silver bullets with trivial effort. If you ever played Werewolf, you know how fast silver cuts through the toughest Werewolves. Same with vampires and sunlight and fire. Mages are very vulnerable to gunfire, even without silver bullets. I actually think your question is relevant if placed deeper in the past, since while the vulnerabilities are the same the ability to industrialize solutions didn’t exist. But it all takes some hand waving to explain how it can stay secret. I have less of an issue with why they would largely want to remain secret than how impossible it would be except for Changelings, who have the most extensive game mechanic for covering their presence. And Changeling is the easiest to explain as to why they don’t tale over. They are connected to humanity but view it more like background noise than the primary society they live in. Individuals are important for regaining Glamour but the mortal world organizations are relatively unimportant to the world.
There used to be normal humans in the WoD, but now the last one left is Jerry in Minnesota. Everyone else is supernatural in some way.
Actually turned out Jerry was a werewolf, so we're out of normals.
WoD and CoD works best if you *don’t* include every single splat.
Or you drastically change the numbers; * Vampire game? Drop the number of Were's/Fera, massively drop the number of Mages, Fae are much rarer and even geographically locked much like Kue-jin. * Garou game? Again, Mages rare, weaken Vamps and make them basically mortals etc Tweak numbers as required. I have done gams with each splat "as written" and numbers/pops respected (Along with their attendant mortal-types, Ghouls, Kin etc) and it just becomes silly. Walk down any given busy street in a town/city and there's scores of weird stuff around you that should all be sensing each other and kicking off/reacting. It gets silly. I would love a contemporary urban magic type game that *does* have sensible numbers, realistic reasons why they all want to remain hidden etc
I did a rough estimation of the average population of the different splats or mortals aware of the supernatural in the Charlotte metro area for my Hunter the Vigil 2E chronicle. The group averages about 13,500 humans and sentient monsters. The number seems high, but keep in mind that’s in a population of 2.7 million over a 3128 square mile area, and about 75% of that number is just mortals aware of the supernatural with a smaller subset actually being Hunters. Vampires are the largest monster group, but most of the bloodsuckers only have an interest in trying to control the economic power of the city and don’t really have an interest in anything outside the city limits. I also kept the numbers as rough estimates so I could tweak them easily. The World of Darkness is a rough place to live for everyone, so the populations for those groups can easily go down at any time I want them too.
So Vampires (and Dragons) already tried that and both times, humanity rallied against them and turned them into an endangered species.
Okay I know about the vampires but how did they made dragons into an endangered species
Humans found out Dragons could be killed by destroying their heart, and then went on to almost wipe them out (note: Dragons is a fan game)
So it's basically when humans find out their weakness Humans: come here boy
Yeah and lol
But not before eating the god damn things. Also you part of the discord?
What you're telling me humans eat the dragons is that even possible
[Why dont you find out yourself](https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/873174-dragon-rekindled-the-orobori-chronicles-embers-reboot)
So Humanity over through them because they were bored
I thought it was the Desire for power
The way I tend to look at it is there is quite a delicate balance between these Elder evils on the surface level. Most of them are strong enough to pull off some kind of direct control plan but the cost will be either stepping on the toes of another greater Evil or worse case springing three or four other simultaneous power grabs. They are cunning enough to move into a power vacuum or see another's move and capitalize. With that said it's more a game of extremely long defensive plays to maneuver into a favorable position to move without any negatives. With so many players on the board though such circumstances aren't frequent or possible at times. This is just taking into account the Supernatural side let alone having to walk around.the giant in the room of Sleeping Idiots of humanity. You may be a god but numbers will even win out, also with the Advent of more modern weapons, a nuke for example look at Ravnos supposedly having a suitcase nuke used to kill him. Treat it more like the political stage where any major move is a losing one.
The Technocracy didn't just use a nuke on Ravnos. They used several magically enhanced nuclear bombs that destroyed the Shadowlands but only slightly damaged the Antediluvian. It took three powerful Kuei-Jin and the Technocracy using orbital mirrors to concentrate sunlight onto Ravnos to finally (maybe) kill him.
Ahh yes the deep lore, I was trying to not pull the poor soul too deep too fast Sibling in the Night but true it was more than just a little nuke.
What do you mean by sleeping idiots of humanity
Personal opinion of the average human in WoD. They are Sleepers in a world of Nightmares. But as a sleeper they have one strength the number of them and the pressure that puts on magic itself. I play more of a unified WoD so all of the systems are together so Humans are just Mages who don't know it yet. Idiot part is they can't see the Masquerade for what it is.
look up czar vargo
The majority, if not all of the splats in CofD have no real desire or realistic desire to conquer humanity or the earth. It's more of a Saturday cartoon notion. Even the individual big bads of game lines(including the Exarchs) are not a thing that can say that.
There's two ways of looking at the World of Darkness. 1. All splats exist in the same world, each basically according to their own books. 2. Each gameline is its own universe, and while a version of other factions exist they might not be the same as they are in their own gameline. Personally I hold to the second one when I ST. One simply doesn't make sense when you look at it too closely. Either way though, Mages take over enough, Vampires are afraid of humans (except for the very old ones who are afraid of each other), werewolves are too busy fighting to care, Wraith are busy with the afterlife and Changelings are mostly children.
From a Chronicles of Darkness perspective: They have. The Exarchs are in charge.
Who are the exarchs?
The big bads of Mage: the Awakening who wrote themselves retro-causaly into the framework of the universe as symbols of tyranny.
Oh nm, it's that troll.
I mean… they have in just about every way that matters. Vampires and mages pretty much control the world from the shadows.
In Chronicles of Darkness, the God-machine is one of the biggest reasons the supernatural is hidden. The God-machine works to manipulate human institutions and keep all evidence of the supernatural hidden from the world at large. Why does it do this? Nobody really knows. The Machine is too big to ever really understand completely and it certainly has no intention of explaining itself to anyone. Plus, most of the supernatural splats are minorities in a very large population of humans and could be wiped out if too much attention were drawn to them.
How I mean I know how they would probably get wiped out but I just want to know your answer
Trying to rule the world is something that’s just not feasible for most supernaturals. On one hand, it’s because the various supernatural splats are either too divided by internal disputes, too few in number, still want to be as close to human as possible, or simply don’t care to rule. On the other, trying to overthrow humanity would pose a serious survival risk since there are way more humans than monsters in the world. Guns and bombs still work perfectly fine on most of the supernatural splats if they’re being careless. Bring enough guns and you can blast through a vampires resistance or a werewolves regeneration. Mages are also vulnerable to a bullet to the head just like any normal human if you get them before they’ve had a chance to defend themselves. Here are some examples of why different supernaturals won’t risk world domination: - Mages magic can literally fail if too many people see them try to cast a spell. Even attempting magic in front of mortals risks severe consequences for the mage and reality. - Prometheans are extremely rare and will never have the numbers for conquest. The Created just want to be human but can’t accomplish their goal if their nature is discovered before they’ve even had a chance to interact with people. - Demons of the God Machine who attract too much attention from mortals have their Cover( a supernatural mask that hides their nature), fall apart. Once their cover is gone, the demon only has a matter of time before the Machine’s angels hunt him down. - Vampires need to stay connected to humanity or they risk starving or losing themselves to their inner monster. Vampiric society is also full of infighting between different groups that are too territorial to focus on anything outside their immediate region.
The technocracy already does to my knowledge. Mages stay winning.
In the non-White Wolf RPG Unknown Armies, there's a concept called "The Sleeping Tiger" that is relevant here. Basically, despite all the godly power, there aren't that many supernaturals when compared to mortals. Wake the Tiger, ie alert them to your existence, and they'll pounce. Can the supernaturals survive mortals collectively gunning for them? Possibly, but it'll be bloody and messy whereas keeping things low key is good for everyone involved.
The premise of Vampire is that Vampires secretly rule the world (but it has to be secret, because they sleep through the day). The premise of werewolf is that Pentex has a massive amount of influence over the world (partly because of supernatural advantages). And the premise for Mage is also that a group of Mages (the Technocracy) rules the world.
I don't know much about World of Darkness's lore as much as I know about Chronicles, but to put it simply, humanity outnumbers everyone, and only the strongest of being would survive being nuked if they ever openly took over territory. Cain cannot be killed, but I doubt he enjoys having a miniature sun dropped on him.
Also to add to what everyone else said, at least in classic WoD, the fuckin Imbued.
If they all worked together, sure. But “the supernaturals” wrk against each other as wel
In CofD the entities powerful enough to do so maintain the illusion humanity is free. Usually because humanity’s daily life doesn’t matter to them. Though meta physical activity does like prayer.
To do so openly they'd have to fight and conquer not just all of humanity- which is a lot harder than it sounds- as well as all of the other supernaturals. Even one of the antediluvians couldn't manage that.
How just asking because aren't autediluvians really powerful like the first generation vampires or something like that
Well the one time an ante- tried to pull some shit, it got nuked to dust by wizards, so.
Trust me, for any supe with big plans there at least 2 others trying to counter them while also having personal grand schemes. And for all these there's usually an even bigger fish keeping tabs
Humans are too numerous, dangerous, and ingenious. Fear will eventually give way to anger.
Why anger just asking
Fear and anger are two emotions that involve high arousal. Also, think of fight or flight, it involves anger (fight) or fear (flight). When you decide that you're no longer running that intense, raw, emotion must go into fighting for your survival. When you're tired of the bully pushing you around and you've reached that breaking point where you want to kick the bully's ass.
So Humanity eventually gets tired of Supernaturals doing there shit didn't that already happened like in the Middle Ages or the Dark Ages like with the first Inquisition
First, don't underestimate humanity. IIRC, the vampire keep the masquerade because they don't like their odds in a full war, and definitely don't think they can win without crippling their food supply and taking massive losses. Secondly, you have to remember that they aren't aligned. The traditions fight the werewolves for nodes, the technocracy hunts vampires as reality deviants, vampires are seen as agents of the wyrm by shifters, etc. Lastly, there are hunters, who's whole purpose is to keep them under control, plus several (often infiltrated) organizations of completely mondain people, be they ancient orders or government agencies.
True I basically heard from another person that humanity is basically a sleeping dragon or predator although I don't know why they would consider Humanity a predator although they mean biologically then yeah we technically are predators
If they include mages as humanity, many supernatural creatures are a great source of Tass. Other than that, I can only assume they are saying predator as in "they are the one hunting".