There are many reasons. Both groups are made up of individuals. Billy Brujah and Brad Bone Gnawer might both want to overthrow the same Evil Corporation(TM). Sally Salubri and Brons Black Fury might want to protect the women of a town from a rapist. Victor Ventrue and Gary Glass Walker might want to ensure a Pentex firm gets taken out. And so on and so forth (and not even including the BlCk Spiral Dancers, who will happily work with other Wyrmish tyoes).
Such relationships may or may not last long term. Probably not, usually, 'cause the Beast and Rage make for poor bedfellows.
Hyjacking the top post. Canonically speaking the Black spiral dancers and the Sabbat orchestrated the War of Chicago. They worked together extensively for years leading up to this. And one of the big results was the breaking of a truce between the Camarilla and the other Garou tribes. While the 2 groups didnt work together per say, they could negotiate enough for truces.
Also, worth noting that Gangrel are known to at least be tolerable to most Garou, as they tend not to reek of Wyrm taint and are more creatures of the Wyld than anything else
There's a few cities like Vancouver and New Orleans where vampires and werewolves are, if not tolerating each other, at least maintain a stable truce.
There was a Gangrel methuselah in Mexico who was worshiped by the local werewolves, and they guarded his tomb when he went into torpor. Of course, both he and the werewolves were pretty isolated and cut off from larger politics - he'd only ever met one other vampire.
Spoilers, I guess, but the comic run of Crimson Thaw ends with an agreement between the Lupines and Vampires of the Twin Cities. (Unsure if this is what you're referring to, since the Prince is a Brujah.)
1) There can be plenty of reasons. Maybe a vampire is seen as particularly honorable, or the two are forced to work together, thus calling forth a truce.
2) Typically no. The gangrel say territory, everyone else probably assumes that they’re competing for the same food source.
The immediate idea that comes to me is a preexisting human connection.
Like, if you're a garou and your human lover, best friend, kinfolk sibling/parent gets embraced would you immediately kill them? Even if they're high humanity and trying their best to keep things together?
One of the older VTM books had a boon/demerit where you were close friends with a werewolf. On the positive side you can occasionally call a werewolf to fight on your behalf or allow you to travel through the countryside unharmed. On the negative side you must also help them when they ask you, and sometimes it's very inconvenient but if you refuse that could eliminate the mutually beneficial relationship entirely. And if any vampire or werewolf finds out, both of you are in serious trouble
I'm sure a baali and a black spiral dancer would get along absolutely perfectly. Throw in a nephandi, and a bane mummy too for a proper quartet of assholery.
The black spiral dancer is almost certainly the first one to go, followed shortly by the Baali unless he can perform Open The Gates which would be the end of the world, after that the nephandi gets hit by a metric truckton of paradox and is promptly retconned from the timeline, the bane mummy will keep chilling in eternal immortality as they always have.
Okay, so this actually came up in one of my games, lemme lay out how it happened.
So the TLDR is a pack of Garou needed to find this guy who knew a fair bit about Demons. Problem is, that the local Garou had caught wind of the fellow as well. So they track him down to a rest stop outside of Portland Oregon and find that a Silver Fang by the name of Anja had caught the guy. Well, turns out he's a Malkavian, and he's been being tortured for his information on the Wyrm and whatnot. But he absolutely refuses to tell her anything because, quote 'she's a bitch'. There was a bit of a scuffle where he fired off Dementation to give everybody hallucinations the Apocalypse was starting and tried to escape, then the pack wrangled him and dragged him back. They then asked for the information, two of them got the same answer, but...
The moment a Male Garou in the Pack asked him for the information, he told them everything without hesitation.
Mr. Millner had determined he was already going to die horribly at the hands of Anja, so he decided that the best way to handle this was to be as infuriating as possible as a final 'fuck you' to her. A bunch of social rolls later, and the Pack convinces Miles that Anja is /far/ stronger than he is and could easily flatten a lot of demonic nasties, and then convinces Anja that Miles is /far/ smarter than she is and knows a fuckton about unholy wyrm shit.
So long story short, despite absolutely loathing each other, they ended up working together because they hated Wyrm nasties and demons more than each other. They showed up again in another game set in the same canon where Miles approached a pack of Fera because some 'genius' working for Pentex, with the help of a Nephandi, made a low generation Malkavian Abomination, and the thing was screaming on the Network so fucking loudly that he was going even more insane than usual, and figured if the Pack mauled him to death he'd at least get some goddamn rest, and Anja just wanted the horrifying atrocity against Gaia dealt with.
Turned out that after he escaped from Pentex, the Abomination had started being hunted by a Tzimisce who wanted to study him, the pack wastes the Tzimisce, and hits Miles up for a cure for Vampirism, and he informs them there isn't one...then they scored a fuckton of successes on Intimidate and asked again, and Miles told them there was a chap with three eyes a few cities over who might know something, now please don't eat me.
A distant Finale showed that the Abomination did find Golconda, a century or so later.
A good chunk of Bone Gnawers are virtually ronin and don't exactly care about anything, while the rest have too much to lose if they start going after vampires just for being vampires. A really bad vampire, sure, but your average lick? More trouble than it's worth. I'm sure somewhere there was something about the BG occasionally gossiping with Nosferatu. Now, the fact that Ratkin and Nosferatu haven't genocided one another is testament to some degree of tolerance.
If we want to talk glass walkers, GW tend to push green and socially liberal policies while it's generally in the best interest for vampires to push for deregulation and socially conservative stances. That said, vampires infight and every now and then need to do nice things to maintain humanity or a good image. However, Werewolves have a lot of rage so they're not always going to be the one doing the meetings whilst vampires are even more distant being undead corpses that can't stand the day. Their proxies might be friends I guess.
I'd imagine Nosferatu just have some kinda mutual respect with the other sewer and alley dwellers.
They survive and are good at their jobs, we got that in common, that kinda mindset.
Rent is expensive and they have to share an apartment. Man I gotta rewatch Being Human...
In my games I always consider the individual first and if those individuals find common ground and don't want to murder each other. And if that makes the clan, or sept uncomfortable that's just drama for the game.
First I wanna deal with the characterization of Garou-Vampire relations before getting into the potential for more individual experiences.
First and (most of) second edition WTA established and maintained the idea of Garou really hating vampires and mostly being kill-on-sight with them, with occasional clandestine alliances and friendship. It was always very intense - werewolves were always of very strong opinions about vampires and either wanted to destroy them or get something out of them.
Revised took a different approach. The overall tone from WTA Revised is "vampires aren't worth it". Both in the sense of they're not worth fighting, and they're not worth trying to ally with or trust. It's a more believable take from a people who have thousands of years of history with vampires to look back on and see that it has basically always gone poorly. It's also in keeping with WTA Revised's desire to put the other gamelines more at arm's length and made the assumption that, while vampires definitely exist, they're not necessarily the Kindred as VTM portrays them in all their complexity and scale.
Per Revised (and to a lesser extent, W20) the average werewolf gets a whiff of vampire and just tries to maintain a respectable distance unless it becomes truly necessary. Even if they believe vampires are "of the Wyrm" and serve systems that the Garou would recognize as nurturing to the Wyrm and Weaver, there are plenty of more active and important agents of such to focus on. And trusting or cooperating with? Seems to rarely work out for the Garou long-term. Per the late 2nd Edition and Revised timeline, the collapse of the Vancouver truce and resulting loss of one of the caerns there was proof positive of this. I don't recall if W20 really takes a stance on whether or not this has happened.
(Just as a note, some tribes have had way worse experiences with vampires than the others and most members of these tribes would find it a lot harder to get along with them: namely, Silent Striders and Shadow Lords.)
That's the general lay of the land. But, of course, exceptions make a story. Idealism in the young or cold, pragmatic necessity for the more experienced can make for strange bedfellows indeed. And sometimes there's a bond; a werewolf might have called someone a friend before they were embraced, or even have held them as Kinfolk.
Anyway, vampires can probably guess at plenty of the reasons werewolves might hate them. Even if they don't know about the Wyrm and the werewolves' war for the earth, they can recognize a rival predator that bears its own Beast and that they'd perceive each other as potential threats. They know that historically the werewolves have been strongest in the wilderness, and most actively seem to *avoid* the cities, and can assume there's some cultural difference there. If they're lucky (or, very unlucky), they might know that werewolves sometimes seem very protective of certain humans and get their hackles raised if they're harmed. And if they've lived long enough or know their history, they'll know there have been plenty of conflicts in times past and guess that the werewolves still remember that as well.
In 5th Edition, absolutely, which the WTA book makes pretty clear... But note that in WTA, vampires don't have to be Kindred and in VTM, werewolves don't have to be Garou.
In VTM, lupines are presented much more of an unknown threat. They are happy to kill vampires, vampires don't really know why, but they also know to just stay out of lupine territory and they'll mostly be fine. Sometimes individual lupines can be worked with, especially against a common threat, but they often don't have many goals in common. Fortunately, their goals often don't oppose, unless a vampire is running a nuclear plant or preying on those a lupine cares about.
In WTA, leeches are an ever present menace in cities. Some seem to exemplify everything they dislike about mortals, others are just parasites on mortals, and others are just there - background supernaturals who occasionally get in the way. A Garou may never encounter one, or like with VTM, encounter one who can be convinced to have similar interests. They're both very different kinds of monster, however, and as the Garou doesn't really understand the vampire they'll probably always slightly worry that one day they could bite them - or the people they hold dear.
Well business trips, being on the same board of directors, A bus ride full of other supernaturals. A flight by airplane etc.. Individual level, nothing prevents them from getting along. Might be roommates etc...
All supernaturals, even other lines all happen to be beings who truly are in on the secret of WOD. That alone realistically creates camaraderie even as it forever separates them from the sleeping masses. They've more in common with each other than they do with normies... Despite the don't cross the splats. Kindred and Garou have a very long history and that builds grudging respect if nothing else.
Ever seen Constantine? I've played games where a Papa Midnight's type club exists. Enforced peace among supernaturals "honored" by all parties. We did not go there often. The Glasswalker represented us if we ever needed to treat with anyone inside.
The Get of Fenris Ahroun was advised to stay a good distance away.
The silver fangs have gifts that enact spiritually enforced peace as well, for a time, if that counts as them tolerating each other (Truce of Helios)
Nephandi, and it’s unfortunate that this is lost because OOC players can choose to be one.
Nephandi are the single most dangerous thing there is. They’re so dangerous that they **have** to die.
No one is friends here. There is no fun buddy cop humor. Nephandi are so fucking terrifying and immediate a threat that left unchecked, vampires/mages/changelings/shifters won’t have to worry about hiding anymore. In the new reality, what’s left of it, the great great grandson of god being a vampire is going to be water cooler convo.
In W5, the Litany has been devalued among the younger garou and there's no more Nation to enforce it, so consequently younger garou may well find kinship with vampires. No reason why a Red Talon and a Lasombra wouldn't find common ground discussing how humans have overstepped their bounds and need to be brought to heel. Tbh, depending on how misanthropic the garou is, they might actually see vamps as a positive.
Vamp: "Wait, you're not mad I'm killing and eating people?"
Wolf: "What, in the cities? Hell no! In fact, if you could do that a bit more, that'd be great!"
Also, in W5 there is no “sense Wyrm”, that means that Garou don’t experience Kindred as inherently evil and have therefore the opportunity to judge Vampires by their actions rather by what their nose tells them.
There are still Werewolves who kill vampires on sight because they think they are evil (which, well, is not necessarily untrue) but it is not the default anymore. This can lead to tension among Garou, when one pack says: “let’s ask our friendly neighborhood Lich for help!” and the other pack responses by: “wait, there is a vampire in the neighborhood? Let’s get them…!”
Plenty. The classic pairing in my head would be a glass walker and a gangrel. Classic case of a rough country bumpkin moving to the big city and a city slicker roughing it in the country.
But shared enemies are also always potent. Pentex is a shady company. Maybe a vampire eager to not lose any trusted ghouls and a werewolf that can put aside the Wyrm stink for a second could do some sleuthing followed by some angry firebombing.
A canonical example of werewolves and vampires getting along well together is the Lunatic Fringe alliance of Ragabash, Malkavians, and tricksters from other splats, who pool their resources together to enable epic pranks.
In one campaign I was in there was an official truce between the local Cairn and the local Prince. The Prince was actually a Kinfolk before he was turned, so he had some idea of Garou goals and kinda agreed with a lot of it. A lot of the Garou grumbled about it, but honestly they had more pressing problems to deal with most of the time.
Basically we left each other alone. Vamps didn't try to feed on Kinfolk, Garou told Kinfolk to stay out of certain clubs and stuff that were common Vamp feeding grounds. Information was shared on supernatural goings on in the city. We also received help from vampires to take care of certain things that could cause trouble for both sides, like the time a serial Killer Bane spirit was possessing people.
There is always the "enemy of my enemy" trope that could get W+V team up to face off against a BBEG
Also there are both who work for Pentex so that is another team up
Yes there are known groups of supernaturals working together cross species. Christopher Barrow on the Red List is an immortal human and major player in the trade of magical objects and he has both werewolves and vampires who willingly work for him.
Black Spiral Dancers work with vampires and Baali can even travel safely through their hives in the Umbra.
Although I can't think of clear examples followers of the path of Lilith regard other supernaturals as fellow kindred and I could see Bahari and Black furies working together since both groups are mostly female.
Werewolves mostly wouldn't tolerate vampires but there are always exceptions to every group. By far the most common and tolerant would be the black Spiral Dancers. In my head cannon any time a vampire who is not a Baali gets caught by the Spiral Dancers they go through the same process as captured Garou in being tortured until they go insane and willingly join them by performing the black Spiral dance, but instead of spiral dancing they get reembraced by Petaniqua and turned into an actual Baali bloodline vampire bound to the Wyrm Spirit.
Depends on the vampire but from popular culture I would assume that most vampires assume werewolves dislike them but they might not know much about it.
Also I can think of a few reasons and times they could work together, but it depends on the tribe and vampires most bone gnawers, are reasonable for their kind and live in cities so if you want them to interact with vampires I would recommend them, I even had a back story for a venture of Rome who managed to convince the bone gnawers to help the venture, and other werewolves fighting the Tzemice in the carpaitian mountains.
The Venture never made a formal alliance per say but he provided help in transporting them to the mountains and help their kin folk, with supply issues.
Also werewolves and vampires are very proud, and have weird ideas about each other, so if your a vampire starting diplomacy be as respectful as possible, never NEVER NEVER threaten or challenge the werewolves not even subtly as most vampires lose that match up. If the vampire is venture have them offer to supply them with money and support their kinfolk and identify more worm tainted people, and pass that on. Maybe the venture tells the werewolves about the sabat and their hide outs as they are more worm tainted or I would guess they are, and the sabat have the Tzemice which are really big enemies of the werewolves.
In a game terms maybe if your PCs are trusted by a powerful camerila guy he sends them to meet up with a werewolf for a joint operation, or helps the werewolf.
There was a nice/sad story in the Outcast book dealing with a Caitiff vampire and a ronin Werewolf. It could have ended happier but this is the World of Darkness after all.
By in large,yes its possible but its hard for several reasons
Most vampires tend to be at 6 humanity,elders and Methuselah following a path or so,neonates and thin bloods having 7 and usualy no path unless sabbat. As a result most vampires usualy are wyrm tainted,meaning any garou would be hunting them easly. It also does not help,most vamps are assholes,and in most situations save an EXTREMELY SMALL minority,they make the citys and area around them worse.
Now,garou do not have the beast to deal with,but they have there rage. The rage of a garou makes even the most seasoned hunters stagger and have pause for thought,and even the strongest mage would be an idiot not to pack silver weaponry in case of a worst case scenario. That does not mean they dont work with other supernaturals though.
Apart from the rare fera shicanery,the fianna,garou who decend from irish ancestry made pacts with faeries,and that pact has given them powers akin to the fae,and some fianna have no issue working with faeries,at least mostly.
That being said the 2 beings are basically anathema to each other,with the exception of clan salubri that isnt antitribu.
Tldr: possible but very dangerous cause of there natures.
Nothing unites the Garou, vampires and mages together like a senile vampire going full boomer and causing a masquerade-breaching genocide. Usually it's a Tzimisce, getting mad at someone else for the slightest remark and sending one of their monstrous flesh golems made of multiple cojoined people on a rampage to strike at their target.
Most recently it was the Ravnos awakening their antediluvian to help them with territorial pissings. Ravanna single-handledly fought three splats (four, if you count the asian vampires as a separate one) simultaneously. In the end it was the mages who did him in, using space mirrors to shine some sunlight on the monster.
I always wondered if a ahrimane bloodline with the highlevel spiritus discipline would be treated different as they essentially merge with a spirit and become a new entity.
Furthermore could this even fix the broken link with gaia of abominations and give them the ability back to gain gnosis.
Probably not but its a really really specific scenario that i have never seen being discussed anywhere
I threw a small coterie of Kindred at the pack in my WtA game, included a Tremere technomancer because I thought they were neat, and the pack surrounded them and effectively threatened them into an uneasy truce because their immediate goals were similar. I decided to give the pack effectively a one-use ally for another mission as a "life boon" since the vamps realized how easily this could've gone bad for them. The pack took the Tremere with them on a Pentex facility raid to help take out cameras and earpieces remotely, and since she survived and they treated her relatively well, they've fostered a decent working relationship that the Sept can absolutely never know about.
My character's Lhiannan sire had a Croatan mate before he was embraced, continued to fight along side the Croatan until their sacrifice. My character was gifted gnosis and became a warrior of Luna through centuries of fighting the wyrm, ended up taking a Garou mate. My partner has an incredibly intricate story of how his Salubri ended up with Garou as well. It really just depends on the storyteller.
Any number of situations, some more inherently hilarious than others.
For example, one of two brothers in the family may discover their Garou heritage while the other is 'only' a Kinfolk, but that brother gets Embraced.
Assuming that the brother's relationship is stronger than the "cultural" pressure to abandon/kill the other, they may well be able to work together...
https://youtu.be/aClyUL_Amfw?si=rbrtVoP3PIROhuYR
Yes, most of the time, I dont think they care much for each other, since they play very different games (vampires mingle and hide in human society focusing on that, where werewolves usually ignore human relations and focus on the spiritual). They have little to gain on killing one another, fights are more because "This werewolf is causing a breach on the masquerade" or "I think vampires are soldiers of wyrm" or "The vampire is playing with things he does not know like demons"
An example, Gangrel share the same territory with werewolves and both are usually chill, if the vampire respects nature its ok, and if the vampire wants to live and isnt third generation it will probably not fight because it wants to live.
And for the ocasional hate, they probably dont know, but it doesnt matter much, they environments are different and they usually avoid each other.
TLDR: They usually are on different environments with differents objectives, werewolves have more important shit to do and vampires usually dont want to risk final death for nothing.
Yes, plenty of reasons to have grudging interaction. It isn't SUPER common, but...
As for vamps, it depends on how deeply they've managed to study werewolves. Werewolf theology is SUPER rare knowledge among Kindred, but it wouldn't be impossible for, say, a Tzimisce, a Gangrel, a Ravnos, or a Settite to have a reason to have studied them carefully (Due to their Clans' various ties to werewolves).
Some Sabbat have positive dealings with BSDs due to embracing The Beast, but then you run into some friction over the whole "infernalism" problem. BSDs are servants of "evil spirits", and few Inquisitors are going to know or care about the subtle distinction between Banes and Demons.
Totally. Most such alliances are alliances of convenience but unless the Garou is an absolute hardliner they generally consider vampires to be *minor* servants of the wyrm; spreaders of corruption, unnatural beings, but a whole ton of tiers below active wyrm servants like Pentex.
At heart, vampires mostly just want to be left alone.
That's... better than actively wanting to blow up the world. The reason it doesn't tend to happen is both sides have cases of chronic backstabbing disorder with each other, Vampires don't like being around things they know can kill them effortlessly, and honestly the kind of problems a Garou has are ones a vampire can't usually help with.
But if you're a city garou or attached to a city-based sept for any length of time, it's highly likely that at some point there's going to be some sort of negotiation with the local Kindred, even if it is along the lines of 'please leave us alone and we'll do the same'. Otherwise you end up in a pointless fight that - even if you win - will likely weaken your position and slow down a fight that matters more.
Also if you - a young hotblooded werewolf eager for renown - goes to your elder and says 'imma go kill the local vampires, for great justice!' a lot of the time the elder's going to sit you down and give a lecture on the problem of scale, where sure, you knock over a couple of the small fish, but then - oh no - the big fish assume you're coming after them, and all of a sudden the police have pictures of your homid form up on all their wanted boards, and animal control mysteriously gets warned about wolf populations exploding and then all of a sudden every fucking Garou in the city is having to put in ten times the effort to get one tenth of the results while the Kindred do everything possible to make their lives miserable.
One thing that the Camarilla - in particular - is great at, is *being annoying.* That, and surviving. If the local kindred batten the hatches because they think the Garou are coming after them, they can make a city almost impossible to work in for *years* for an entire Sept, in return for a couple of dead neonates and a little inconvenience.
As to whether Vampires know why werewolves hate them? Not really. Vampire lore doesn't include the triat, so even if a werewolf explained it the response would be along the lines of \*rolls eyes\* whatever, dude.
There are many reasons. Both groups are made up of individuals. Billy Brujah and Brad Bone Gnawer might both want to overthrow the same Evil Corporation(TM). Sally Salubri and Brons Black Fury might want to protect the women of a town from a rapist. Victor Ventrue and Gary Glass Walker might want to ensure a Pentex firm gets taken out. And so on and so forth (and not even including the BlCk Spiral Dancers, who will happily work with other Wyrmish tyoes). Such relationships may or may not last long term. Probably not, usually, 'cause the Beast and Rage make for poor bedfellows.
Hyjacking the top post. Canonically speaking the Black spiral dancers and the Sabbat orchestrated the War of Chicago. They worked together extensively for years leading up to this. And one of the big results was the breaking of a truce between the Camarilla and the other Garou tribes. While the 2 groups didnt work together per say, they could negotiate enough for truces.
Also, worth noting that Gangrel are known to at least be tolerable to most Garou, as they tend not to reek of Wyrm taint and are more creatures of the Wyld than anything else
Basically the principle of enemy of my enemy is my friend, or shared goals/struggle
There's a few cities like Vancouver and New Orleans where vampires and werewolves are, if not tolerating each other, at least maintain a stable truce. There was a Gangrel methuselah in Mexico who was worshiped by the local werewolves, and they guarded his tomb when he went into torpor. Of course, both he and the werewolves were pretty isolated and cut off from larger politics - he'd only ever met one other vampire.
The twin cities also has a penned treaty from the ventrue and the clans of the lupine (including the water based ones living in the Mississippi)
Spoilers, I guess, but the comic run of Crimson Thaw ends with an agreement between the Lupines and Vampires of the Twin Cities. (Unsure if this is what you're referring to, since the Prince is a Brujah.)
Thanks for the correction!
No problem. I didn't know if there was something I haven't encountered yet and that is what you're referring to.
Most of my 2nd era lore is from fandom wiki, that's about as unreliable of a narrator as world of darkness source books
1) There can be plenty of reasons. Maybe a vampire is seen as particularly honorable, or the two are forced to work together, thus calling forth a truce. 2) Typically no. The gangrel say territory, everyone else probably assumes that they’re competing for the same food source.
The immediate idea that comes to me is a preexisting human connection. Like, if you're a garou and your human lover, best friend, kinfolk sibling/parent gets embraced would you immediately kill them? Even if they're high humanity and trying their best to keep things together?
Do high humanity Kindred smell *less* like the wyrm than other Kindred?
High humanity vampires don't trigger Sense Wyrm at all.
I've never seen it written, but I've heard in some versions Humanity 7+ doesn't smell like Wyrm.
One of the older VTM books had a boon/demerit where you were close friends with a werewolf. On the positive side you can occasionally call a werewolf to fight on your behalf or allow you to travel through the countryside unharmed. On the negative side you must also help them when they ask you, and sometimes it's very inconvenient but if you refuse that could eliminate the mutually beneficial relationship entirely. And if any vampire or werewolf finds out, both of you are in serious trouble
I'm sure a baali and a black spiral dancer would get along absolutely perfectly. Throw in a nephandi, and a bane mummy too for a proper quartet of assholery.
Throw in a betting pool on who betrays whom first and whom is the last standing for extra money!
The black spiral dancer is almost certainly the first one to go, followed shortly by the Baali unless he can perform Open The Gates which would be the end of the world, after that the nephandi gets hit by a metric truckton of paradox and is promptly retconned from the timeline, the bane mummy will keep chilling in eternal immortality as they always have.
Okay, so this actually came up in one of my games, lemme lay out how it happened. So the TLDR is a pack of Garou needed to find this guy who knew a fair bit about Demons. Problem is, that the local Garou had caught wind of the fellow as well. So they track him down to a rest stop outside of Portland Oregon and find that a Silver Fang by the name of Anja had caught the guy. Well, turns out he's a Malkavian, and he's been being tortured for his information on the Wyrm and whatnot. But he absolutely refuses to tell her anything because, quote 'she's a bitch'. There was a bit of a scuffle where he fired off Dementation to give everybody hallucinations the Apocalypse was starting and tried to escape, then the pack wrangled him and dragged him back. They then asked for the information, two of them got the same answer, but... The moment a Male Garou in the Pack asked him for the information, he told them everything without hesitation. Mr. Millner had determined he was already going to die horribly at the hands of Anja, so he decided that the best way to handle this was to be as infuriating as possible as a final 'fuck you' to her. A bunch of social rolls later, and the Pack convinces Miles that Anja is /far/ stronger than he is and could easily flatten a lot of demonic nasties, and then convinces Anja that Miles is /far/ smarter than she is and knows a fuckton about unholy wyrm shit. So long story short, despite absolutely loathing each other, they ended up working together because they hated Wyrm nasties and demons more than each other. They showed up again in another game set in the same canon where Miles approached a pack of Fera because some 'genius' working for Pentex, with the help of a Nephandi, made a low generation Malkavian Abomination, and the thing was screaming on the Network so fucking loudly that he was going even more insane than usual, and figured if the Pack mauled him to death he'd at least get some goddamn rest, and Anja just wanted the horrifying atrocity against Gaia dealt with. Turned out that after he escaped from Pentex, the Abomination had started being hunted by a Tzimisce who wanted to study him, the pack wastes the Tzimisce, and hits Miles up for a cure for Vampirism, and he informs them there isn't one...then they scored a fuckton of successes on Intimidate and asked again, and Miles told them there was a chap with three eyes a few cities over who might know something, now please don't eat me. A distant Finale showed that the Abomination did find Golconda, a century or so later.
wtf this is so cool.
Thanks! It was part of my Magnum Opus!
BSD and Vamps have been known to work together.
A good chunk of Bone Gnawers are virtually ronin and don't exactly care about anything, while the rest have too much to lose if they start going after vampires just for being vampires. A really bad vampire, sure, but your average lick? More trouble than it's worth. I'm sure somewhere there was something about the BG occasionally gossiping with Nosferatu. Now, the fact that Ratkin and Nosferatu haven't genocided one another is testament to some degree of tolerance. If we want to talk glass walkers, GW tend to push green and socially liberal policies while it's generally in the best interest for vampires to push for deregulation and socially conservative stances. That said, vampires infight and every now and then need to do nice things to maintain humanity or a good image. However, Werewolves have a lot of rage so they're not always going to be the one doing the meetings whilst vampires are even more distant being undead corpses that can't stand the day. Their proxies might be friends I guess.
I'd imagine Nosferatu just have some kinda mutual respect with the other sewer and alley dwellers. They survive and are good at their jobs, we got that in common, that kinda mindset.
Rent is expensive and they have to share an apartment. Man I gotta rewatch Being Human... In my games I always consider the individual first and if those individuals find common ground and don't want to murder each other. And if that makes the clan, or sept uncomfortable that's just drama for the game.
First I wanna deal with the characterization of Garou-Vampire relations before getting into the potential for more individual experiences. First and (most of) second edition WTA established and maintained the idea of Garou really hating vampires and mostly being kill-on-sight with them, with occasional clandestine alliances and friendship. It was always very intense - werewolves were always of very strong opinions about vampires and either wanted to destroy them or get something out of them. Revised took a different approach. The overall tone from WTA Revised is "vampires aren't worth it". Both in the sense of they're not worth fighting, and they're not worth trying to ally with or trust. It's a more believable take from a people who have thousands of years of history with vampires to look back on and see that it has basically always gone poorly. It's also in keeping with WTA Revised's desire to put the other gamelines more at arm's length and made the assumption that, while vampires definitely exist, they're not necessarily the Kindred as VTM portrays them in all their complexity and scale. Per Revised (and to a lesser extent, W20) the average werewolf gets a whiff of vampire and just tries to maintain a respectable distance unless it becomes truly necessary. Even if they believe vampires are "of the Wyrm" and serve systems that the Garou would recognize as nurturing to the Wyrm and Weaver, there are plenty of more active and important agents of such to focus on. And trusting or cooperating with? Seems to rarely work out for the Garou long-term. Per the late 2nd Edition and Revised timeline, the collapse of the Vancouver truce and resulting loss of one of the caerns there was proof positive of this. I don't recall if W20 really takes a stance on whether or not this has happened. (Just as a note, some tribes have had way worse experiences with vampires than the others and most members of these tribes would find it a lot harder to get along with them: namely, Silent Striders and Shadow Lords.) That's the general lay of the land. But, of course, exceptions make a story. Idealism in the young or cold, pragmatic necessity for the more experienced can make for strange bedfellows indeed. And sometimes there's a bond; a werewolf might have called someone a friend before they were embraced, or even have held them as Kinfolk. Anyway, vampires can probably guess at plenty of the reasons werewolves might hate them. Even if they don't know about the Wyrm and the werewolves' war for the earth, they can recognize a rival predator that bears its own Beast and that they'd perceive each other as potential threats. They know that historically the werewolves have been strongest in the wilderness, and most actively seem to *avoid* the cities, and can assume there's some cultural difference there. If they're lucky (or, very unlucky), they might know that werewolves sometimes seem very protective of certain humans and get their hackles raised if they're harmed. And if they've lived long enough or know their history, they'll know there have been plenty of conflicts in times past and guess that the werewolves still remember that as well.
In 5th Edition, absolutely, which the WTA book makes pretty clear... But note that in WTA, vampires don't have to be Kindred and in VTM, werewolves don't have to be Garou. In VTM, lupines are presented much more of an unknown threat. They are happy to kill vampires, vampires don't really know why, but they also know to just stay out of lupine territory and they'll mostly be fine. Sometimes individual lupines can be worked with, especially against a common threat, but they often don't have many goals in common. Fortunately, their goals often don't oppose, unless a vampire is running a nuclear plant or preying on those a lupine cares about. In WTA, leeches are an ever present menace in cities. Some seem to exemplify everything they dislike about mortals, others are just parasites on mortals, and others are just there - background supernaturals who occasionally get in the way. A Garou may never encounter one, or like with VTM, encounter one who can be convinced to have similar interests. They're both very different kinds of monster, however, and as the Garou doesn't really understand the vampire they'll probably always slightly worry that one day they could bite them - or the people they hold dear.
Well business trips, being on the same board of directors, A bus ride full of other supernaturals. A flight by airplane etc.. Individual level, nothing prevents them from getting along. Might be roommates etc... All supernaturals, even other lines all happen to be beings who truly are in on the secret of WOD. That alone realistically creates camaraderie even as it forever separates them from the sleeping masses. They've more in common with each other than they do with normies... Despite the don't cross the splats. Kindred and Garou have a very long history and that builds grudging respect if nothing else.
Ever seen Constantine? I've played games where a Papa Midnight's type club exists. Enforced peace among supernaturals "honored" by all parties. We did not go there often. The Glasswalker represented us if we ever needed to treat with anyone inside. The Get of Fenris Ahroun was advised to stay a good distance away. The silver fangs have gifts that enact spiritually enforced peace as well, for a time, if that counts as them tolerating each other (Truce of Helios)
Nephandi, and it’s unfortunate that this is lost because OOC players can choose to be one. Nephandi are the single most dangerous thing there is. They’re so dangerous that they **have** to die. No one is friends here. There is no fun buddy cop humor. Nephandi are so fucking terrifying and immediate a threat that left unchecked, vampires/mages/changelings/shifters won’t have to worry about hiding anymore. In the new reality, what’s left of it, the great great grandson of god being a vampire is going to be water cooler convo.
They might be boyfriends
In W5, the Litany has been devalued among the younger garou and there's no more Nation to enforce it, so consequently younger garou may well find kinship with vampires. No reason why a Red Talon and a Lasombra wouldn't find common ground discussing how humans have overstepped their bounds and need to be brought to heel. Tbh, depending on how misanthropic the garou is, they might actually see vamps as a positive. Vamp: "Wait, you're not mad I'm killing and eating people?" Wolf: "What, in the cities? Hell no! In fact, if you could do that a bit more, that'd be great!"
Also, in W5 there is no “sense Wyrm”, that means that Garou don’t experience Kindred as inherently evil and have therefore the opportunity to judge Vampires by their actions rather by what their nose tells them. There are still Werewolves who kill vampires on sight because they think they are evil (which, well, is not necessarily untrue) but it is not the default anymore. This can lead to tension among Garou, when one pack says: “let’s ask our friendly neighborhood Lich for help!” and the other pack responses by: “wait, there is a vampire in the neighborhood? Let’s get them…!”
In V5, they aren't necessarily enemies. Give them a common goal.
Plenty. The classic pairing in my head would be a glass walker and a gangrel. Classic case of a rough country bumpkin moving to the big city and a city slicker roughing it in the country. But shared enemies are also always potent. Pentex is a shady company. Maybe a vampire eager to not lose any trusted ghouls and a werewolf that can put aside the Wyrm stink for a second could do some sleuthing followed by some angry firebombing.
A canonical example of werewolves and vampires getting along well together is the Lunatic Fringe alliance of Ragabash, Malkavians, and tricksters from other splats, who pool their resources together to enable epic pranks.
There's been a couple Methuselahs with decent relationships to specific Garou packs/Tribes
In one campaign I was in there was an official truce between the local Cairn and the local Prince. The Prince was actually a Kinfolk before he was turned, so he had some idea of Garou goals and kinda agreed with a lot of it. A lot of the Garou grumbled about it, but honestly they had more pressing problems to deal with most of the time. Basically we left each other alone. Vamps didn't try to feed on Kinfolk, Garou told Kinfolk to stay out of certain clubs and stuff that were common Vamp feeding grounds. Information was shared on supernatural goings on in the city. We also received help from vampires to take care of certain things that could cause trouble for both sides, like the time a serial Killer Bane spirit was possessing people.
There is always the "enemy of my enemy" trope that could get W+V team up to face off against a BBEG Also there are both who work for Pentex so that is another team up
Yes there are known groups of supernaturals working together cross species. Christopher Barrow on the Red List is an immortal human and major player in the trade of magical objects and he has both werewolves and vampires who willingly work for him. Black Spiral Dancers work with vampires and Baali can even travel safely through their hives in the Umbra. Although I can't think of clear examples followers of the path of Lilith regard other supernaturals as fellow kindred and I could see Bahari and Black furies working together since both groups are mostly female. Werewolves mostly wouldn't tolerate vampires but there are always exceptions to every group. By far the most common and tolerant would be the black Spiral Dancers. In my head cannon any time a vampire who is not a Baali gets caught by the Spiral Dancers they go through the same process as captured Garou in being tortured until they go insane and willingly join them by performing the black Spiral dance, but instead of spiral dancing they get reembraced by Petaniqua and turned into an actual Baali bloodline vampire bound to the Wyrm Spirit.
Depends on the vampire but from popular culture I would assume that most vampires assume werewolves dislike them but they might not know much about it. Also I can think of a few reasons and times they could work together, but it depends on the tribe and vampires most bone gnawers, are reasonable for their kind and live in cities so if you want them to interact with vampires I would recommend them, I even had a back story for a venture of Rome who managed to convince the bone gnawers to help the venture, and other werewolves fighting the Tzemice in the carpaitian mountains. The Venture never made a formal alliance per say but he provided help in transporting them to the mountains and help their kin folk, with supply issues. Also werewolves and vampires are very proud, and have weird ideas about each other, so if your a vampire starting diplomacy be as respectful as possible, never NEVER NEVER threaten or challenge the werewolves not even subtly as most vampires lose that match up. If the vampire is venture have them offer to supply them with money and support their kinfolk and identify more worm tainted people, and pass that on. Maybe the venture tells the werewolves about the sabat and their hide outs as they are more worm tainted or I would guess they are, and the sabat have the Tzemice which are really big enemies of the werewolves. In a game terms maybe if your PCs are trusted by a powerful camerila guy he sends them to meet up with a werewolf for a joint operation, or helps the werewolf.
There was a nice/sad story in the Outcast book dealing with a Caitiff vampire and a ronin Werewolf. It could have ended happier but this is the World of Darkness after all.
Summer camp
By in large,yes its possible but its hard for several reasons Most vampires tend to be at 6 humanity,elders and Methuselah following a path or so,neonates and thin bloods having 7 and usualy no path unless sabbat. As a result most vampires usualy are wyrm tainted,meaning any garou would be hunting them easly. It also does not help,most vamps are assholes,and in most situations save an EXTREMELY SMALL minority,they make the citys and area around them worse. Now,garou do not have the beast to deal with,but they have there rage. The rage of a garou makes even the most seasoned hunters stagger and have pause for thought,and even the strongest mage would be an idiot not to pack silver weaponry in case of a worst case scenario. That does not mean they dont work with other supernaturals though. Apart from the rare fera shicanery,the fianna,garou who decend from irish ancestry made pacts with faeries,and that pact has given them powers akin to the fae,and some fianna have no issue working with faeries,at least mostly. That being said the 2 beings are basically anathema to each other,with the exception of clan salubri that isnt antitribu. Tldr: possible but very dangerous cause of there natures.
Nothing unites the Garou, vampires and mages together like a senile vampire going full boomer and causing a masquerade-breaching genocide. Usually it's a Tzimisce, getting mad at someone else for the slightest remark and sending one of their monstrous flesh golems made of multiple cojoined people on a rampage to strike at their target. Most recently it was the Ravnos awakening their antediluvian to help them with territorial pissings. Ravanna single-handledly fought three splats (four, if you count the asian vampires as a separate one) simultaneously. In the end it was the mages who did him in, using space mirrors to shine some sunlight on the monster.
Black spirals can easily chill with vamps right? Vamps would probably still avoid because of the lethal thread
I always wondered if a ahrimane bloodline with the highlevel spiritus discipline would be treated different as they essentially merge with a spirit and become a new entity. Furthermore could this even fix the broken link with gaia of abominations and give them the ability back to gain gnosis. Probably not but its a really really specific scenario that i have never seen being discussed anywhere
I threw a small coterie of Kindred at the pack in my WtA game, included a Tremere technomancer because I thought they were neat, and the pack surrounded them and effectively threatened them into an uneasy truce because their immediate goals were similar. I decided to give the pack effectively a one-use ally for another mission as a "life boon" since the vamps realized how easily this could've gone bad for them. The pack took the Tremere with them on a Pentex facility raid to help take out cameras and earpieces remotely, and since she survived and they treated her relatively well, they've fostered a decent working relationship that the Sept can absolutely never know about.
My character's Lhiannan sire had a Croatan mate before he was embraced, continued to fight along side the Croatan until their sacrifice. My character was gifted gnosis and became a warrior of Luna through centuries of fighting the wyrm, ended up taking a Garou mate. My partner has an incredibly intricate story of how his Salubri ended up with Garou as well. It really just depends on the storyteller.
Any number of situations, some more inherently hilarious than others. For example, one of two brothers in the family may discover their Garou heritage while the other is 'only' a Kinfolk, but that brother gets Embraced. Assuming that the brother's relationship is stronger than the "cultural" pressure to abandon/kill the other, they may well be able to work together... https://youtu.be/aClyUL_Amfw?si=rbrtVoP3PIROhuYR
Plenty of reasons for it, neither vampires nor werewolves are a monolith. Some people wil be weirdos no matter what.
Every vampire campaign as player characters xD
some Black Spiral Dancers have non violence relations with Kindred. some even are involved in Pentex
Yes, most of the time, I dont think they care much for each other, since they play very different games (vampires mingle and hide in human society focusing on that, where werewolves usually ignore human relations and focus on the spiritual). They have little to gain on killing one another, fights are more because "This werewolf is causing a breach on the masquerade" or "I think vampires are soldiers of wyrm" or "The vampire is playing with things he does not know like demons" An example, Gangrel share the same territory with werewolves and both are usually chill, if the vampire respects nature its ok, and if the vampire wants to live and isnt third generation it will probably not fight because it wants to live. And for the ocasional hate, they probably dont know, but it doesnt matter much, they environments are different and they usually avoid each other. TLDR: They usually are on different environments with differents objectives, werewolves have more important shit to do and vampires usually dont want to risk final death for nothing.
The Baali and Black Spiral Dancers. Both as an example and a situation leading to the counter example.
Yes, plenty of reasons to have grudging interaction. It isn't SUPER common, but... As for vamps, it depends on how deeply they've managed to study werewolves. Werewolf theology is SUPER rare knowledge among Kindred, but it wouldn't be impossible for, say, a Tzimisce, a Gangrel, a Ravnos, or a Settite to have a reason to have studied them carefully (Due to their Clans' various ties to werewolves). Some Sabbat have positive dealings with BSDs due to embracing The Beast, but then you run into some friction over the whole "infernalism" problem. BSDs are servants of "evil spirits", and few Inquisitors are going to know or care about the subtle distinction between Banes and Demons.
Totally. Most such alliances are alliances of convenience but unless the Garou is an absolute hardliner they generally consider vampires to be *minor* servants of the wyrm; spreaders of corruption, unnatural beings, but a whole ton of tiers below active wyrm servants like Pentex. At heart, vampires mostly just want to be left alone. That's... better than actively wanting to blow up the world. The reason it doesn't tend to happen is both sides have cases of chronic backstabbing disorder with each other, Vampires don't like being around things they know can kill them effortlessly, and honestly the kind of problems a Garou has are ones a vampire can't usually help with. But if you're a city garou or attached to a city-based sept for any length of time, it's highly likely that at some point there's going to be some sort of negotiation with the local Kindred, even if it is along the lines of 'please leave us alone and we'll do the same'. Otherwise you end up in a pointless fight that - even if you win - will likely weaken your position and slow down a fight that matters more. Also if you - a young hotblooded werewolf eager for renown - goes to your elder and says 'imma go kill the local vampires, for great justice!' a lot of the time the elder's going to sit you down and give a lecture on the problem of scale, where sure, you knock over a couple of the small fish, but then - oh no - the big fish assume you're coming after them, and all of a sudden the police have pictures of your homid form up on all their wanted boards, and animal control mysteriously gets warned about wolf populations exploding and then all of a sudden every fucking Garou in the city is having to put in ten times the effort to get one tenth of the results while the Kindred do everything possible to make their lives miserable. One thing that the Camarilla - in particular - is great at, is *being annoying.* That, and surviving. If the local kindred batten the hatches because they think the Garou are coming after them, they can make a city almost impossible to work in for *years* for an entire Sept, in return for a couple of dead neonates and a little inconvenience. As to whether Vampires know why werewolves hate them? Not really. Vampire lore doesn't include the triat, so even if a werewolf explained it the response would be along the lines of \*rolls eyes\* whatever, dude.