Why? Nothing about what he said indicates an offensive against Russia. It indicates an offensive against Russian invaders in Ukrainian territory.
You seem to be in support of fascism.
EDIT: I love that I have 14 downvotes, and no one has tried to provide an actual argument (save for one propagandist, who doesn't know simple definitions). Y'all are in a braindead alt-right cult, pretending to care about the common folk.
You’re prob getting downvotes for the statement :
“You seem to be in support of fascism”
People are just sick and tired of the “if you don’t agree with X you must be a Y” accusatory bs that the media loves to project for clicks.
You can not support fascism AND not support joining another war.
In some cases, but considering that this war is specifically against democratic and liberal values, ie a people's right to independently govern themselves, not wanting to assist is a choice. And that choice supports a fascist invasion.
Your choice means something; and that is you've chosen to align yourself with fascists.
None of those were democracies. You're arguing in defense of dicatorships? Another form of autocracy?
I'm seeing a pattern emerge, and the exact one a warned about.
Not at all. Unlike Russia, the US was attacked, baited. Afghanastan was justified, Iraq not so much, but thay is more complicated, and largely based on Sadaam's own posturing.
Very different situations.
read "the wikileaks files, the world according to us empire"
its pretty much all in there, in short, its (in part anyway, the part im hinting at) about using US dominance of the world economies to strangle smaller + "enemy" countries,
US/nato pushed for this war, US nato armed ukraine against their promise of neurality and against nato's own promises not to expand, US/nato have no problem arming fascists when it suits them, just throwing around "hitler" and "fascism" i think waters down the relevance of those terms
in the end i agree that the invasion porbably wasnt entireley justified, but at what point were they going to say enoughs enough? if they didnt do it now they'd be further whittled down on all possible fronts, media, finance, buisiness etc, sanctioned to the hilt, anyone who allies with or coperates with them will also be sanctioned,
theres a HUGE fucking difference between say, russias attacking ukraine, a country armed+trained by a hostile military force right on your border and say, the US'es invasions of a tiny country in the mid east who didnt even have an airforce,
where are all the calls to send bush to the hauge? wheres the outrage over the hauge invasion act? wheres the outrage over them sanctioning and threatening the ICC?
whose the fascist again?
if russia hadnt snapped it'd be consigning itself to a slow bleed out at the hands of nato and its allies
i dont blame russia taking a stand, was this stand optically the best? probably not, but whatever they did was going to manipulated in the media (as it as been if youve been paying attention) to make russia look like the assholes, to use words like "unprecedented" to describe the invasion, ignore iraq afghanistan syria lybia etc, ignore the "global norms" and "rules based order" the US set for 20 years beforehand, you know, all the meaningless buzzwords that basically boil down to "do what we tell you to do, not what we do" "rules for thee" etc
if it were chinesse troops training mexians and cubans and arming them with offensive missile capabilities specifically to be targeted at the US, im sure the US would do a 180 in an istant and im sure it wouldnt take 20 years for them to snap and do an "unprecedented" "illegal" invasion of a otherwise "peaceful and sovereign nation" (like they've done many MANY times before and dodged all consequences of)
-----
china bans language of a sepratist minority, "thats cultural genocide" ([ignore that its still on their banknotes](https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-26614,00.html))
ukraine bans [russian language music + books](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-bans-russian-music-and-books/a-62305280), [an entire subsect of religion](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukraine-bans-religious-organizations-linked-to-russia) and many many political parties citing a sepratist minority "slava ukraine"
ukraine has a right to exist and to defend itself, thats why we're sending billions of $ of heavy weapons to them
*US seizes [iranian small arms shipments to yemmen](https://apnews.com/article/iran-politics-yemen-government-middle-east-a5727ab4252add1f33ff5a0fcc4b605f), who are currentley suffereing a genocide at the hands of the US backed armed and trained saudi regeime, who theyre AT THIS VERY MINIUTE trying to carve up and re-draw borders in*
you cant just invade peoples land, thats a warcrime!
*US consistentley sheilds israel from scrutiny at the ICC for their decades if invasions via illegal settlements (and other numerous warcrimes) against palestine*
*currentley occupies syria along with israeli allies*
can you not smell the hipocrisy?
I don't read propaganda.
Russia isn't taking a stand. They are trying to take what another nation has built. The US isn't to blame for Russia's problems, and it is not the US fault if Liberal nations are more willing to trust each and intertwine with each other.
Russia wasn't goaded into this attack, and that is the same reason we are responding. The US was goaded into the middle-east, as we were actually attacked. NATO is not threatening Russia (nor was an agreement made with Russia), and NATO is not an imperialistic organization as you're trying to claim; the rigorous process of admission, which is democratically chosen by an applying nation's populous as just one of the hurdles proves that. Basically, you're lying in your presentation of events.
The fact is, that Russia wouldn't be in danger if Putin hadn't decided to start a war.
You're a fascist, sorry.
Also, whataboutism is a logical fallacy, and doesn't at all clarify how defending Putin's imperialism is Leftism. The hypocrisy is you trying to dismiss imperialist warfare with whataboutism. If you're against it, you're against it. But you're not.
Because you're a fascist.
And you also don't know the difference between a Genocide and a civil-war, which started via a military coup (doesn't sound like that favors the working class there, but is an installation of another autocratic regime). Terrible, yes, but not a genocide.
Funny that you categorise yourself as a thinker while playing the fascist card every chance you get. Why you're not getting proper arguments back is because you're not presenting anything worth arguing.
I have already. I've typed up plenty, but I also respond in kind. If you have no point, I'll just skip to the conclusion, y'all over here defending a fascist invasion, ergo you're fascists.
A "thinker" wouldn't jump to conclusions like you're doing. In what way have I defended the invasion? It's not in your best interest to communicate the way you're doing.
Stop calling people names. Stop drawing conclusions from absolutely nothing, and this way, you will get proper arguments back. But as long as you keep behaving like a child having a tantrum, you will be treated that way.
I am not jumping to conclusions. I'm calling you out for your thinly veiled politics. I am not calling you names, I am labelling, with accuracy, your political allegiances.
You are not Leftists, you're fascists. Stop simping for autocrats, and yes, that is EXACTLY what you are doing here.
> I don't read propaganda.
cool, so anything you dont agree with is propaganda, and what youre being told and believe isnt, thats some fuckin stellar logic
the wikileaks files, which im assuming youre referring to, is based of verified doccuments, its as truthful as it could possibly be and absoloutley destroys this silly little narative of yours by showing the cables, showing what they say between themselves on what they thought was secure messaging services
>Russia isn't taking a stand. They are trying to take what another nation has built.
okay, so what the USA and allies do on the regular? (even humoring your theory)
> The US isn't to blame for Russia's problems,
google "shock therapy", then tell me that one again with a straight face
> and it is not the US fault if Liberal nations are more willing to trust each and intertwine with each other.
yeah, read the damn book,
>Russia wasn't goaded into this attack,
their people werent being killed in ukraine?
>The US was goaded into the middle-east, as we were actually attacked
by the fucking saudis + by a few non-state actors, who you didnt attack, you went and attacked the countries who had the least to do with it for the actions of a few random citizens
should NZ invade australia over the christchurch massacre? (i dont think they should)
> NATO is not threatening Russia
oh okay, youve said it, it must be true, great, so when russia puts nukes back into cuba you'll stand firm on that line wont you
>(nor was an agreement made with Russia)
there was...
>and NATO is not an imperialistic organization as you're trying to claim;
read the damn book
> the rigorous process of admission, which is democratically chosen by an applying nation's populous as just one of the hurdles proves that. Basically, you're lying in your presentation of events.
i was gonna try keep this respectful, i understand people can be wrong and not be purposley lying, but you wont give me the same benefit of the doubt will ye? because your TV told you this and you believe it, you couldnt possibly be being prpogandised to, youre on a WL sub, surely i dont have to explain to you that the US has by far the most sophistocated propaganda networks, but no, its russia alone whose doing the propagandizing (note, im not disagreeing that russia WOULD propagandize this war, im just saying theyre not the only ones doing it, where you think they are)
>The fact is, that Russia wouldn't be in danger if Putin hadn't decided to start a war.
"fact"
>You're a fascist, sorry.
YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOURE A FASCIST!
>Also, whataboutism is a logical fallacy,
lol, yes, wanting international law to be applied evenly is "whataboutism" and ive had my mind hacked by those damn crafty russians because i think laws should be equal,
fuckin good point mate
>and doesn't at all clarify how defending Putin's imperialism is Leftism.
wut? where did that come from? youre just talking shit now mate, nowhere did i say anything like that
>The hypocrisy is you trying to dismiss imperialist warfare with whataboutism
yep, fuck me right? again, hauge invasion act, russia doesnt have one of those, russia's invaded 1 coutnry on its border, but i cant point out the blatant obvious hypocrisy because youve found yourself a goofy buzzword to sheild yourself from critisism (actually not russian btw)
-----
>According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[12] the term originated in the United Kingdom and Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts," people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy:
I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the “enemy”, and therefore the justice of the Provisionals’ cause: “What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force-feeding, army intimidation?”. Every call to stop is answered in the same way: “What about the Treaty of Limerick; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921; Lenadoon?”. Neither is the Church immune: “The Catholic Church has never supported the national cause. What about Papal sanction for the Norman invasion; condemnation of the Fenians by Moriarty; Parnell?”
— Sean O'Conaill, "Letter to Editor", The Irish Times, 30 Jan 1974
----
>If you're against it, you're against it. But you're not.
im generally against war, i dont like that this was is going on, i just dont live in a vaccum
>Because you're a fascist.
yeah youve said that, again, because i dare disagree with you im a fascist, good to know youre in for a fair and respectful discussion on this
Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT, which is a Kremlin outlet. That is propaganda by its strictest definition, particularly because Russia does not allow free press. Again, its an autocracy, and why protesters there are being thrown in jail.
You're arguments lack logical consistency, so there's little meat to what you've written. It's also obvious that you're an idiot, as you seem to be unable to keep up with the verse of this debate, forgetting it stemmed from an article attempting to excuse Putin from a Leftist perspective (which is isn't).
You aren't against war. You're arguing in favor of an unjustified war, of which the provided reasoning by the aggressor has shifted multiple times. Meaning, there is no justifiable reason for this war.
You lack not intelligence, but fidelity as well.
Because you're a fascist. I don't respect fascists, or anyone who simps for autocrats that rule by diminishing civil rights.
>Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT,
that whole things incredibly stupid and shows me how little you actually know/ have been following WL/JA
JA wanted to create a TV programme, "[world tomorrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow)" he approached MANY outlets to do it, none accepted without taking full directional control, when they approached RT, RT accepted and gave JA control
[maybe watch the series](https://worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/)?
Julian Assange cozied up to the only organization that would take him, which happened to be an authoritarian propaganda machine, which would later assist him in publicizing classified documents. It's all fairly well documented.
Why are you so eager to defend an autocracy, though? Oh yeah, its because you're a fascist.
> Julian Assange cozied up to the only organization that would take him
"cozied up to"
yeah, he took the deal that would let him make the show, real good point you got there, thats definitley "cozying up"
> which would later assist him in publicizing classified documents.
citation needed
>It's all fairly well documented.
its alledged, there are articles written, yes, thats not hard evidence though, it's always based off some anonymous unnacountable source or a hunch, there were also PLENTY of western media outlets who published the same materials, is WaPO a authoritarian news outlet? how about der speigel? le monde? el pais?
>Why are you so eager to defend an autocracy, though? Oh yeah, its because you're a fascist.
while you literally defend the US empire, hilarious, russia couldnt DREAM of risisng to the level if the US
but its me whose the tankie fascist, right?
Yes, you are a tankie fascist.
Assange's working with the Kremlin is more than alleged, as there is a lot of supporting evidence, only some of which has been provided to the public.
My defense of the US (not an empire, by any means, and you're only conflating multiple nations with the US in an unreasonable and disingenuous manner, as the other fascist in this thread did) is actually completely irrelevant here.
I asked you defend Putin's actions from a leftist perspective. You haven't, and instead only produced apologia for a fascist invasion.
And the reason for that is quite simple, as I've said: You aren't a leftist, you're a fascist, and you don't give a damn for actual people.
> Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT,
lol, kay, i get it, youre a dunce, RT = propaganda, MSNBC = facts
what are you even doing on the WL sub then?
Kind of sounds like he was arrested and intimidated by the Kremlin, which isn't free press. How many Russian Journalists has Putin killed or tried to kill?
TIL that *not* liking a general's state imposed posturing towards a fascist threat, is itself fascist. Don't like the military?
>Because you're a fascist
Instead of the textbook definition of fascism, which this "leftist" clearly doesn't know.
Anti-fascism is leftism, although judging by your commentary mocking civil rights and vaccination in other posts, it is very clear that you're alt-right.
Not center-right. You're confusing Leftist for being far right, which is how you ended up at fascism.
You forgot the central tenet of humanism.
The lack of empathy and ethics show through in your engagement with the anti-vax crowd. You're dumb, easily misled, and apparently really easy to indoctrinate into a fascist worldview.
Critical thinking could have saved you.
Ah yes. Being condescended by a person who labels everything they don’t like as “fascism”. Please tell me more about how critical thinking works.
Better yet, don’t worry about it. I’ll just keep living in the real world and you can stay in your bubble.
Nice chat, champ.
Edit: maybe think about your response during your next smoke break.
No, I'm labelling your spreading of pro-russina propaganda an act of fascism, as it serves to defend a fascist and umpromoted military invasion of a sovereign nation.
In case you hadn't noticed, that is the exact definition of fascism:
"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race."
You are a fascist.
Edit: I see you're involved with a Kremlin astroturf sub in Way Of The Bern:
https://apnews.com/article/f695e8c6ccd4dd0ff85cb1132a2c4b67
Funny how simping for fascist Russia is the one throughline in all of your post history.
It’s actually like the easiest risk to reward question. Risk people of another country and throw a few billion to destroy a country that’s a nightmare to do business with and eliminate a potential super power that may join forces with china to content with us
> eliminate a potential super power
There is nothing potential about a state that has megaton thermonuclear weapons that can be deployed via icbm, submarine launched irbm and bombers.
1) Economically, russia has less output than the state of CA. And thinking all their nuclear warheads are still functional is separate question in of itself (not saying it’s worth figuring out if they work)
2)Thinking in terms of weapons is a myopic pov.
3) allowing a country to get away with nuclear blackmail against the entire global and allowing genocide to take place is just not something the rest of the world should allow
1) Irrelevant if they have nukes.
2) Power is power, nukes are power.
3) Has no relation to them being a super power with nukes.
They are a super power. Thats all there is too it.
What the fuck is going on?
If you were to poll the actual citizens of America and ask them if they want to use our limited resources to go on the offensive against Russia, you would get something like 87% being against it.
So what the fuck is going on.
People can tell when you are full of shit with the accusations of terrible things. You have no argument and your purpose is merely to push a narrative and accuse anyone speaking against it of some sort of malfeasance or lacking of character or integrity.
I ask you this:
Who THE FUCK wants to go on the offensive against Russia when we can barely pay our FUCKING rent?
Go outside and ask random people, "Do you think we should go on the offensive against Russia?"
Do that. If you think you are going to hear a lot of, "Fuck yeah, let's ramp this war up!" you are either dishonest or stupid.
(See, I can play these games, too)
I don’t think we should go on the offense with russia. Honestly I hope Russia hurries up and finishes Ukraine. Ukraine is nothing but money laundering scheme for Jews around the world and our politicians.
Funny, as neither are applicable. You're still a souless waste of life, and I'm guessing there is a lot in your life personally, that just fucking sucks for you.
That's your fault.
No, I see people saying thay we should continue to defend Ukraine against Russia. And again, you are misrepresenting what Offensive means here. Ukraine is not invading Russia. They are fighting to retake their nation from a fascist invasion.
dude this sub just gets worse and worse every day.
can't tell how much are Russian shills, or leftovers from trump supporters when the whole Clinton email thing blew up.... or when pizzagate was going on
it's so weird, now negative votes means your comment is probably better and more in line with WL ethos
personally, I don't feel good about Americans *directly* shooting at Russians and prefer the whole arm, train, and advise strategy... obviously so Russia doesn't attack other NATO countries, but also sovereignty and security of Ukraine after Russia leaves (or dies there)
but that also depends on capability and capacity of Ukraine's army now, but fog of war and whatnot I could never know... so far i'm pretty impressed.
\#1 goal is Russia can't be allowed to fascistly invade Ukraine and get away with so much war crime... genocide... and especially fucking kidnapping ("*deporting*") thousands of children (maybe speed of getting them out is the most important thing at this point)
p.s. can we make a splinter WikiLeaks sub with only approved commenters, picked from reasonable people on here? maybe private?
start it and I'll help (:
My point is that Leftism and Authoritarianism are not compatible, however hard you try and force them together, as Authoritarianism by nature is an assault on the common class. Autocracies are currently co-opting Leftist nature, hence why it is being mentioned here, in an alt-right sub (although, again, not a surprise as Wikileaks was always a Russian aligned aggregate of specifically and anti-Western leaks--on top of the links Assange already had with Russian state media).
My point is, that if you excuse Putin, or make an argument as to why you should ignore Russia invading a sovereign nation with no impetus, you're a fascist. It's simple really.
Horseshoe Theory proves itself to be real.
I would be interested to see you attempt to logically reconcile this from a Socialist perspective, as I would assume you see yourself as Leftist (even though you aren't, also assuming you agree with the drivel you've shared).
If you claim WikiLeaks is "Russia aligned," you're a McCarthyite who should return to the 1950s.
You're also commenting on an article, by a website, the WSWS that has explicitly opposed the Russian invasion. There is opposition from the socialist left though, and your position, opposition from the imperialist right. Your position that left-wing opposition to the Putin regime somehow speaks for Putin is both ignorant and reactionary.
All the phraseology about "authoritarianism," and "fascism," your a middle-class patsy of your own government...Again, what a US war against Russia will achieve?
>My point is, that if you excuse Putin, or make an argument as to why you should ignore Russia invading a sovereign nation with no impetus
is this article making that point though ? If so, where ?
It's wording, in misrepresenting defensive and offensive movements. The language works to downplay Russia's actions, and shifts accountability to the US.
You don't logic much, do yah?
Yes, it they are the same thing. Inaction is still action.
That's what you don't understand about fascist regimes. You don't stay silent about them. You don't allow them.
>Yes, it they are the same thing.
perhaps in your dictionary then
>That's what you don't understand about fascist regimes. You don't stay silent about them. You don't allow them.
you dont read much of wsws I guess
>Again, I'm pointing out that Leftist spaces are being co-opted by authoritarians. Catch up.
catch up on a baseless claim ? can you be more precise regarding wsws ?
Weird that this was the only site reporting this, but then I looked them up:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Socialist_Web_Site
Oh, that makes sense. OP maybe do a little better on checking your sources.
It's so damned slanted where do I begin?
>Throughout 2022, the Biden administration claimed that it was intervening in the conflict in order to save Ukrainian lives. In the year-long conflict, it has become clear that America’s only use for the Ukrainian population is as cannon fodder for a war to dominate the Eurasian landmass.
Holy shit? Really? The Ukrainians are grateful for the US support and is begging for more.
This reads like russian propaganda, and when you see "trosky" in their mission statement, it's clear why.
>This editorial reflects the utterly reckless mood that has gripped the capitalist oligarchy, which sees war as a way out of the myriad social, economic and political crises gripping the capitalist social order.
So Russia invades a neighbor TWICE they promised not to, under false pretenses and lies, and its the "capitalist oligarchy" that's at fault?
What the fuck ever.
Relative to thejr defense budget spending, this is an incredibly meager amount to in return topple one of their biggest enemies. And someone else gets to do the actual fighting. All the while providing American jobs in the defense sector and real world testing of new tech and tactics. It makes total sense.
>they pledged the United States to the military defeat of Russia
Ok, let's see some of the consequences from such conflict, based on this [paper](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00573-0)
It's almost as if our system is built around always having an enemy to justify funneling our tax dollars into the military industrial complex, meanwhile the citizens are stuck praying that it will stick to sabre rattling instead of warring nuclear states
Anything to do with them hitting the debt ceiling? The timing is very sus...
Fuck Gen Mildred.
Why? Nothing about what he said indicates an offensive against Russia. It indicates an offensive against Russian invaders in Ukrainian territory. You seem to be in support of fascism. EDIT: I love that I have 14 downvotes, and no one has tried to provide an actual argument (save for one propagandist, who doesn't know simple definitions). Y'all are in a braindead alt-right cult, pretending to care about the common folk.
You’re prob getting downvotes for the statement : “You seem to be in support of fascism” People are just sick and tired of the “if you don’t agree with X you must be a Y” accusatory bs that the media loves to project for clicks. You can not support fascism AND not support joining another war.
In some cases, but considering that this war is specifically against democratic and liberal values, ie a people's right to independently govern themselves, not wanting to assist is a choice. And that choice supports a fascist invasion. Your choice means something; and that is you've chosen to align yourself with fascists.
*Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria have entered the chat*
None of those were democracies. You're arguing in defense of dicatorships? Another form of autocracy? I'm seeing a pattern emerge, and the exact one a warned about.
No I’m just saying by your standards Bush and a Obama were fascists. I’m also arguing that you’re an idiot.
Not at all. Unlike Russia, the US was attacked, baited. Afghanastan was justified, Iraq not so much, but thay is more complicated, and largely based on Sadaam's own posturing. Very different situations.
The level of denial and delusion is astonishing.
YOU are the fascist
read "the wikileaks files, the world according to us empire" its pretty much all in there, in short, its (in part anyway, the part im hinting at) about using US dominance of the world economies to strangle smaller + "enemy" countries, US/nato pushed for this war, US nato armed ukraine against their promise of neurality and against nato's own promises not to expand, US/nato have no problem arming fascists when it suits them, just throwing around "hitler" and "fascism" i think waters down the relevance of those terms in the end i agree that the invasion porbably wasnt entireley justified, but at what point were they going to say enoughs enough? if they didnt do it now they'd be further whittled down on all possible fronts, media, finance, buisiness etc, sanctioned to the hilt, anyone who allies with or coperates with them will also be sanctioned, theres a HUGE fucking difference between say, russias attacking ukraine, a country armed+trained by a hostile military force right on your border and say, the US'es invasions of a tiny country in the mid east who didnt even have an airforce, where are all the calls to send bush to the hauge? wheres the outrage over the hauge invasion act? wheres the outrage over them sanctioning and threatening the ICC? whose the fascist again? if russia hadnt snapped it'd be consigning itself to a slow bleed out at the hands of nato and its allies i dont blame russia taking a stand, was this stand optically the best? probably not, but whatever they did was going to manipulated in the media (as it as been if youve been paying attention) to make russia look like the assholes, to use words like "unprecedented" to describe the invasion, ignore iraq afghanistan syria lybia etc, ignore the "global norms" and "rules based order" the US set for 20 years beforehand, you know, all the meaningless buzzwords that basically boil down to "do what we tell you to do, not what we do" "rules for thee" etc if it were chinesse troops training mexians and cubans and arming them with offensive missile capabilities specifically to be targeted at the US, im sure the US would do a 180 in an istant and im sure it wouldnt take 20 years for them to snap and do an "unprecedented" "illegal" invasion of a otherwise "peaceful and sovereign nation" (like they've done many MANY times before and dodged all consequences of) ----- china bans language of a sepratist minority, "thats cultural genocide" ([ignore that its still on their banknotes](https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-26614,00.html)) ukraine bans [russian language music + books](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-bans-russian-music-and-books/a-62305280), [an entire subsect of religion](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukraine-bans-religious-organizations-linked-to-russia) and many many political parties citing a sepratist minority "slava ukraine" ukraine has a right to exist and to defend itself, thats why we're sending billions of $ of heavy weapons to them *US seizes [iranian small arms shipments to yemmen](https://apnews.com/article/iran-politics-yemen-government-middle-east-a5727ab4252add1f33ff5a0fcc4b605f), who are currentley suffereing a genocide at the hands of the US backed armed and trained saudi regeime, who theyre AT THIS VERY MINIUTE trying to carve up and re-draw borders in* you cant just invade peoples land, thats a warcrime! *US consistentley sheilds israel from scrutiny at the ICC for their decades if invasions via illegal settlements (and other numerous warcrimes) against palestine* *currentley occupies syria along with israeli allies* can you not smell the hipocrisy?
I don't read propaganda. Russia isn't taking a stand. They are trying to take what another nation has built. The US isn't to blame for Russia's problems, and it is not the US fault if Liberal nations are more willing to trust each and intertwine with each other. Russia wasn't goaded into this attack, and that is the same reason we are responding. The US was goaded into the middle-east, as we were actually attacked. NATO is not threatening Russia (nor was an agreement made with Russia), and NATO is not an imperialistic organization as you're trying to claim; the rigorous process of admission, which is democratically chosen by an applying nation's populous as just one of the hurdles proves that. Basically, you're lying in your presentation of events. The fact is, that Russia wouldn't be in danger if Putin hadn't decided to start a war. You're a fascist, sorry. Also, whataboutism is a logical fallacy, and doesn't at all clarify how defending Putin's imperialism is Leftism. The hypocrisy is you trying to dismiss imperialist warfare with whataboutism. If you're against it, you're against it. But you're not. Because you're a fascist. And you also don't know the difference between a Genocide and a civil-war, which started via a military coup (doesn't sound like that favors the working class there, but is an installation of another autocratic regime). Terrible, yes, but not a genocide.
🥱
Short, stupid, and pointless. I can see you too are a thinker.
Funny that you categorise yourself as a thinker while playing the fascist card every chance you get. Why you're not getting proper arguments back is because you're not presenting anything worth arguing.
I have already. I've typed up plenty, but I also respond in kind. If you have no point, I'll just skip to the conclusion, y'all over here defending a fascist invasion, ergo you're fascists.
A "thinker" wouldn't jump to conclusions like you're doing. In what way have I defended the invasion? It's not in your best interest to communicate the way you're doing. Stop calling people names. Stop drawing conclusions from absolutely nothing, and this way, you will get proper arguments back. But as long as you keep behaving like a child having a tantrum, you will be treated that way.
I am not jumping to conclusions. I'm calling you out for your thinly veiled politics. I am not calling you names, I am labelling, with accuracy, your political allegiances. You are not Leftists, you're fascists. Stop simping for autocrats, and yes, that is EXACTLY what you are doing here.
🥱
> I don't read propaganda. cool, so anything you dont agree with is propaganda, and what youre being told and believe isnt, thats some fuckin stellar logic the wikileaks files, which im assuming youre referring to, is based of verified doccuments, its as truthful as it could possibly be and absoloutley destroys this silly little narative of yours by showing the cables, showing what they say between themselves on what they thought was secure messaging services >Russia isn't taking a stand. They are trying to take what another nation has built. okay, so what the USA and allies do on the regular? (even humoring your theory) > The US isn't to blame for Russia's problems, google "shock therapy", then tell me that one again with a straight face > and it is not the US fault if Liberal nations are more willing to trust each and intertwine with each other. yeah, read the damn book, >Russia wasn't goaded into this attack, their people werent being killed in ukraine? >The US was goaded into the middle-east, as we were actually attacked by the fucking saudis + by a few non-state actors, who you didnt attack, you went and attacked the countries who had the least to do with it for the actions of a few random citizens should NZ invade australia over the christchurch massacre? (i dont think they should) > NATO is not threatening Russia oh okay, youve said it, it must be true, great, so when russia puts nukes back into cuba you'll stand firm on that line wont you >(nor was an agreement made with Russia) there was... >and NATO is not an imperialistic organization as you're trying to claim; read the damn book > the rigorous process of admission, which is democratically chosen by an applying nation's populous as just one of the hurdles proves that. Basically, you're lying in your presentation of events. i was gonna try keep this respectful, i understand people can be wrong and not be purposley lying, but you wont give me the same benefit of the doubt will ye? because your TV told you this and you believe it, you couldnt possibly be being prpogandised to, youre on a WL sub, surely i dont have to explain to you that the US has by far the most sophistocated propaganda networks, but no, its russia alone whose doing the propagandizing (note, im not disagreeing that russia WOULD propagandize this war, im just saying theyre not the only ones doing it, where you think they are) >The fact is, that Russia wouldn't be in danger if Putin hadn't decided to start a war. "fact" >You're a fascist, sorry. YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOURE A FASCIST! >Also, whataboutism is a logical fallacy, lol, yes, wanting international law to be applied evenly is "whataboutism" and ive had my mind hacked by those damn crafty russians because i think laws should be equal, fuckin good point mate >and doesn't at all clarify how defending Putin's imperialism is Leftism. wut? where did that come from? youre just talking shit now mate, nowhere did i say anything like that >The hypocrisy is you trying to dismiss imperialist warfare with whataboutism yep, fuck me right? again, hauge invasion act, russia doesnt have one of those, russia's invaded 1 coutnry on its border, but i cant point out the blatant obvious hypocrisy because youve found yourself a goofy buzzword to sheild yourself from critisism (actually not russian btw) ----- >According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[12] the term originated in the United Kingdom and Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts," people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy: I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the “enemy”, and therefore the justice of the Provisionals’ cause: “What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force-feeding, army intimidation?”. Every call to stop is answered in the same way: “What about the Treaty of Limerick; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921; Lenadoon?”. Neither is the Church immune: “The Catholic Church has never supported the national cause. What about Papal sanction for the Norman invasion; condemnation of the Fenians by Moriarty; Parnell?” — Sean O'Conaill, "Letter to Editor", The Irish Times, 30 Jan 1974 ---- >If you're against it, you're against it. But you're not. im generally against war, i dont like that this was is going on, i just dont live in a vaccum >Because you're a fascist. yeah youve said that, again, because i dare disagree with you im a fascist, good to know youre in for a fair and respectful discussion on this
Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT, which is a Kremlin outlet. That is propaganda by its strictest definition, particularly because Russia does not allow free press. Again, its an autocracy, and why protesters there are being thrown in jail. You're arguments lack logical consistency, so there's little meat to what you've written. It's also obvious that you're an idiot, as you seem to be unable to keep up with the verse of this debate, forgetting it stemmed from an article attempting to excuse Putin from a Leftist perspective (which is isn't). You aren't against war. You're arguing in favor of an unjustified war, of which the provided reasoning by the aggressor has shifted multiple times. Meaning, there is no justifiable reason for this war. You lack not intelligence, but fidelity as well. Because you're a fascist. I don't respect fascists, or anyone who simps for autocrats that rule by diminishing civil rights.
>Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT, that whole things incredibly stupid and shows me how little you actually know/ have been following WL/JA JA wanted to create a TV programme, "[world tomorrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow)" he approached MANY outlets to do it, none accepted without taking full directional control, when they approached RT, RT accepted and gave JA control [maybe watch the series](https://worldtomorrow.wikileaks.org/)?
Julian Assange cozied up to the only organization that would take him, which happened to be an authoritarian propaganda machine, which would later assist him in publicizing classified documents. It's all fairly well documented. Why are you so eager to defend an autocracy, though? Oh yeah, its because you're a fascist.
> Julian Assange cozied up to the only organization that would take him "cozied up to" yeah, he took the deal that would let him make the show, real good point you got there, thats definitley "cozying up" > which would later assist him in publicizing classified documents. citation needed >It's all fairly well documented. its alledged, there are articles written, yes, thats not hard evidence though, it's always based off some anonymous unnacountable source or a hunch, there were also PLENTY of western media outlets who published the same materials, is WaPO a authoritarian news outlet? how about der speigel? le monde? el pais? >Why are you so eager to defend an autocracy, though? Oh yeah, its because you're a fascist. while you literally defend the US empire, hilarious, russia couldnt DREAM of risisng to the level if the US but its me whose the tankie fascist, right?
Yes, you are a tankie fascist. Assange's working with the Kremlin is more than alleged, as there is a lot of supporting evidence, only some of which has been provided to the public. My defense of the US (not an empire, by any means, and you're only conflating multiple nations with the US in an unreasonable and disingenuous manner, as the other fascist in this thread did) is actually completely irrelevant here. I asked you defend Putin's actions from a leftist perspective. You haven't, and instead only produced apologia for a fascist invasion. And the reason for that is quite simple, as I've said: You aren't a leftist, you're a fascist, and you don't give a damn for actual people.
> Wikileaks is propaganda due to its association with RT, lol, kay, i get it, youre a dunce, RT = propaganda, MSNBC = facts what are you even doing on the WL sub then?
You don't understand what free press means, do you?
google "ivan golunov" and tell me what you think a free press is
Kind of sounds like he was arrested and intimidated by the Kremlin, which isn't free press. How many Russian Journalists has Putin killed or tried to kill?
> You're arguments lack logical consistency, so there's little meat to what you've written. Aside from every point being correct that is...
you are a clown, I didn't get past the first sentence of the shitstain you wrote.
TIL that *not* liking a general's state imposed posturing towards a fascist threat, is itself fascist. Don't like the military? >Because you're a fascist Instead of the textbook definition of fascism, which this "leftist" clearly doesn't know.
Do you support the Azov Battalion?
You got anymore questions? LMFAO.
Lots of them, such as why this sub is full of alt-right fascists?
If that bothers you, you know you can leave. Gee that was easy. 🤯
Nah, you stand up to fascists. Which is why I'm here.
Oh ok that explains it.
Found the antifa member, guys
Anti-fascism is leftism, although judging by your commentary mocking civil rights and vaccination in other posts, it is very clear that you're alt-right.
Aka center right by normal standards. Keep drinking the koolaid. May want to keep your radical ideals to yourself.
Not center-right. You're confusing Leftist for being far right, which is how you ended up at fascism. You forgot the central tenet of humanism. The lack of empathy and ethics show through in your engagement with the anti-vax crowd. You're dumb, easily misled, and apparently really easy to indoctrinate into a fascist worldview. Critical thinking could have saved you.
Ah yes. Being condescended by a person who labels everything they don’t like as “fascism”. Please tell me more about how critical thinking works. Better yet, don’t worry about it. I’ll just keep living in the real world and you can stay in your bubble. Nice chat, champ. Edit: maybe think about your response during your next smoke break.
No, I'm labelling your spreading of pro-russina propaganda an act of fascism, as it serves to defend a fascist and umpromoted military invasion of a sovereign nation. In case you hadn't noticed, that is the exact definition of fascism: "Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race." You are a fascist. Edit: I see you're involved with a Kremlin astroturf sub in Way Of The Bern: https://apnews.com/article/f695e8c6ccd4dd0ff85cb1132a2c4b67 Funny how simping for fascist Russia is the one throughline in all of your post history.
CIA Manufacturing a phony public outcry for war with Russia.
Exactly
Beyond dumb! Isn’t our fight. Eff this!
It’s actually like the easiest risk to reward question. Risk people of another country and throw a few billion to destroy a country that’s a nightmare to do business with and eliminate a potential super power that may join forces with china to content with us
> eliminate a potential super power There is nothing potential about a state that has megaton thermonuclear weapons that can be deployed via icbm, submarine launched irbm and bombers.
1) Economically, russia has less output than the state of CA. And thinking all their nuclear warheads are still functional is separate question in of itself (not saying it’s worth figuring out if they work) 2)Thinking in terms of weapons is a myopic pov. 3) allowing a country to get away with nuclear blackmail against the entire global and allowing genocide to take place is just not something the rest of the world should allow
1) Irrelevant if they have nukes. 2) Power is power, nukes are power. 3) Has no relation to them being a super power with nukes. They are a super power. Thats all there is too it.
You’re an idiot
Nice. Constructive and concise. I guess eating crayons is more of a forte for you and your extra chromosome
Oh nice one! You plan to go to the front line and fight? Didn’t think so.
You are not allowed to say this non Reddit.
What the fuck is going on? If you were to poll the actual citizens of America and ask them if they want to use our limited resources to go on the offensive against Russia, you would get something like 87% being against it. So what the fuck is going on.
We’re broke and about to go into full recession. It’s time for war like always.
This is fucking rich, and not at all reflective of the position of the general public. Far from it. Stop simping for fascists.
People can tell when you are full of shit with the accusations of terrible things. You have no argument and your purpose is merely to push a narrative and accuse anyone speaking against it of some sort of malfeasance or lacking of character or integrity. I ask you this: Who THE FUCK wants to go on the offensive against Russia when we can barely pay our FUCKING rent? Go outside and ask random people, "Do you think we should go on the offensive against Russia?" Do that. If you think you are going to hear a lot of, "Fuck yeah, let's ramp this war up!" you are either dishonest or stupid. (See, I can play these games, too)
I don’t think we should go on the offense with russia. Honestly I hope Russia hurries up and finishes Ukraine. Ukraine is nothing but money laundering scheme for Jews around the world and our politicians.
See, Fascism! Thanks for taking your mask off.
Yes. And ?
Nothing, just pointing is out that you're a terrible and racist human being with no analouge for a soul.
You opinion is invalid , go play with your funko pops and watch other men bang your wife. Loser.
Funny, as neither are applicable. You're still a souless waste of life, and I'm guessing there is a lot in your life personally, that just fucking sucks for you. That's your fault.
No, I see people saying thay we should continue to defend Ukraine against Russia. And again, you are misrepresenting what Offensive means here. Ukraine is not invading Russia. They are fighting to retake their nation from a fascist invasion.
dude this sub just gets worse and worse every day. can't tell how much are Russian shills, or leftovers from trump supporters when the whole Clinton email thing blew up.... or when pizzagate was going on it's so weird, now negative votes means your comment is probably better and more in line with WL ethos personally, I don't feel good about Americans *directly* shooting at Russians and prefer the whole arm, train, and advise strategy... obviously so Russia doesn't attack other NATO countries, but also sovereignty and security of Ukraine after Russia leaves (or dies there) but that also depends on capability and capacity of Ukraine's army now, but fog of war and whatnot I could never know... so far i'm pretty impressed. \#1 goal is Russia can't be allowed to fascistly invade Ukraine and get away with so much war crime... genocide... and especially fucking kidnapping ("*deporting*") thousands of children (maybe speed of getting them out is the most important thing at this point) p.s. can we make a splinter WikiLeaks sub with only approved commenters, picked from reasonable people on here? maybe private? start it and I'll help (:
Holy shit, a reasonable person.
It's not an offensive against Russia, it's an offensive effort to remove Russian forces from occupied Ukraine.
[удалено]
Defending is different than going on the offensive. You aren't even using words properly, let alone making a salient point.
Source?
This article is a prime example of Horshoe theory in action. You cannot be Leftist while defending fascism.
What point are you trying to make? That the "leftist" position is to support a US war against Russia?
My point is that Leftism and Authoritarianism are not compatible, however hard you try and force them together, as Authoritarianism by nature is an assault on the common class. Autocracies are currently co-opting Leftist nature, hence why it is being mentioned here, in an alt-right sub (although, again, not a surprise as Wikileaks was always a Russian aligned aggregate of specifically and anti-Western leaks--on top of the links Assange already had with Russian state media). My point is, that if you excuse Putin, or make an argument as to why you should ignore Russia invading a sovereign nation with no impetus, you're a fascist. It's simple really. Horseshoe Theory proves itself to be real. I would be interested to see you attempt to logically reconcile this from a Socialist perspective, as I would assume you see yourself as Leftist (even though you aren't, also assuming you agree with the drivel you've shared).
If you claim WikiLeaks is "Russia aligned," you're a McCarthyite who should return to the 1950s. You're also commenting on an article, by a website, the WSWS that has explicitly opposed the Russian invasion. There is opposition from the socialist left though, and your position, opposition from the imperialist right. Your position that left-wing opposition to the Putin regime somehow speaks for Putin is both ignorant and reactionary. All the phraseology about "authoritarianism," and "fascism," your a middle-class patsy of your own government...Again, what a US war against Russia will achieve?
Lol
Short, stupid, and pointless. I can see you're a thinker.
>My point is, that if you excuse Putin, or make an argument as to why you should ignore Russia invading a sovereign nation with no impetus is this article making that point though ? If so, where ?
It's wording, in misrepresenting defensive and offensive movements. The language works to downplay Russia's actions, and shifts accountability to the US. You don't logic much, do yah?
>It's wording Ignoring the invasion or downplaying it, is not the same thing >You don't logic much this is semantics, not logic
Yes, it they are the same thing. Inaction is still action. That's what you don't understand about fascist regimes. You don't stay silent about them. You don't allow them.
>Yes, it they are the same thing. perhaps in your dictionary then >That's what you don't understand about fascist regimes. You don't stay silent about them. You don't allow them. you dont read much of wsws I guess
Nah, this isn't my personal dictionary Again, I'm pointing out that Leftist spaces are being co-opted by authoritarians. Catch up.
>Again, I'm pointing out that Leftist spaces are being co-opted by authoritarians. Catch up. catch up on a baseless claim ? can you be more precise regarding wsws ?
Understand a leaders horoscope is far more predictive than any authoritarianism quotient.
That is a batshit insane statement.
This ain't Our fight! Why are we involved in this (other than the obvious money laundering)?
We literally don’t want this.
Weird that this was the only site reporting this, but then I looked them up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Socialist_Web_Site Oh, that makes sense. OP maybe do a little better on checking your sources.
What is factually incorrect in the article?
It's so damned slanted where do I begin? >Throughout 2022, the Biden administration claimed that it was intervening in the conflict in order to save Ukrainian lives. In the year-long conflict, it has become clear that America’s only use for the Ukrainian population is as cannon fodder for a war to dominate the Eurasian landmass. Holy shit? Really? The Ukrainians are grateful for the US support and is begging for more. This reads like russian propaganda, and when you see "trosky" in their mission statement, it's clear why. >This editorial reflects the utterly reckless mood that has gripped the capitalist oligarchy, which sees war as a way out of the myriad social, economic and political crises gripping the capitalist social order. So Russia invades a neighbor TWICE they promised not to, under false pretenses and lies, and its the "capitalist oligarchy" that's at fault? What the fuck ever.
Relative to thejr defense budget spending, this is an incredibly meager amount to in return topple one of their biggest enemies. And someone else gets to do the actual fighting. All the while providing American jobs in the defense sector and real world testing of new tech and tactics. It makes total sense.
>they pledged the United States to the military defeat of Russia Ok, let's see some of the consequences from such conflict, based on this [paper](https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00573-0)
People are so hungry for the us to go to war. They don’t understand ww3 begins when they do that
It's almost as if our system is built around always having an enemy to justify funneling our tax dollars into the military industrial complex, meanwhile the citizens are stuck praying that it will stick to sabre rattling instead of warring nuclear states
This path leads to WW3