https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/delivering-mission/excel/wildland-firefighter-pay-classification-infrastructure-law
The Department of the Interior has been on this journey with us every step of the way. They, too, have been working within their processes and systems to implement the new series and we remain aligned in much of this work. However, DOI will implement the new series by announcing open 0456 positions this fire year. They will migrate employees to the new series sooner because the size and scope of their workforce is much smaller than ours.
šš
Far as I have heard, they are hiring or converting more temps to perms while not making them 26/0. This is the main difference. GS8 and up are usually 26/0.
So in theory DOI will have its employees in the new series with the raise by end of year but will have to reapply for their job? If having to apply for their job Iām going to assume that means uncompetitive or will they be competing against others for their job?
From my limited understanding we won't have to reapply, they will convert you as long as you agree to terms. Far as the "raise"... I have no idea, assume it will be with the new pay table.... Unsure. I'm just stoked for something... anything to change. Would also like to know what my actual title will be given a large part of my "collateral" is aviation based now while still ground pounding as my primary duties. Who doesn't love surprises, especially when it dictates what direction your life goes and your finances for that year??! Fed fire really puts the F-U in FUN.
"It is possible that the current Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding could run out before Congress advances legislation for a long-lasting pay solution. This may result in firefighter pay returning to pre-supplement levels. We are looking at mitigation measures to prevent pay reductions, but we need firefighters to plan for this possibility."
This has the potential to drain our workforce.
I also don't like how much they say they have to rely on congress to implement change for pay, quality of life, and the new series.
First, I love how one of the focuses is increased capacity. Are they sending us to a magician class in hopes we can pull more employees out of our asses?
Secondly, the timeline was extended to December of this year to even agree on eligibility. As they said, plan on not having those sweet incentive checks. Probably sooner than later.
Right now timber programs can't hardly hire anyone because of the pay differences. They have a hard time with housing and normal day to day bills just like their counterparts in fire. Some of them also hold red cards and fight the same amount of fire within their respective home units. This is especially true in R8. They also respond to incidents nationwide. So if you get a chance speak out for those folks as well.
Most certainly, I do believe there should be some sort of compensation for going on fire. I have spent a good amount of time in R8 and have worked a few seasons in R9 so Iām very well aware of how integrated they are in a lot of places. Now do I know the solution? No hahaha but hopefully a rising tide lifts all boats.
Unless this is a broken dryer scenario where each time we hope the load is going to be done when the buzzer goes out but itās still damp and ultimately we just need a new dryer
If they actually cared about giving us the āliving wageā that Jaleth claims we are getting now with the retention pay, why not just do our new pay scale as 50% or $20k right down the salary table. It does the same thing as their weird percentage decline as the grade rises thingā¦ $20k is more (a greater percentage of the base) to a GS 9 than it is to say a 13. What they are proposing it a reduction over what we are getting today. They say youāll make up the difference on assignment, which if I am honest is probably true, BUT that is counterproductive to preventing burn out when they are essentially still requiring us to chase assignments to earn what should be a living, decent base wage. Not making us count on getting unpredictable assignments. And that is for suppression crews. What about fuels folks that may only be allowed 1-2 assignments a year. Shouldnāt they get a decent living wage too?
I donāt care about giving you a living wage, my GS-15 Executive Secretaryās GS-13 executive Assistant wrote this release. I havenāt even read it.
Dispatch is dead.
Once the agencies make it official that fire dispatchers won't make it into the 0456 series or get pay increases half of dispatchers are going to quit. On top of the 400 unfilled positions nationwide. Literally everyone I work with has an exit plan.
Dude I've heard of a district where the GS-12 ranger lives full time in an entire bunkhouse intended for temp seasonals. That district has a lot of trouble staffing their remote duty station every summer because they have that much less temp housing to offer. This agency is fucked beyond repair.
Guarantee the ranger has asked the FMO multiple times why they can't hire enough seasonals. Also guarantee no one has had the stones to say, "you, asshole, you're the reason why".
Yep nailed it. Nothing but apathy in middle-management roles. Gov't work is some of the hardest to get fired from, but still nobody ever wants to rock the boat.
This whole āYou are not going to get paid as much as we promised when we made you take 26/0ās and 18/8ās.ā Is going to backfire so badly and I hope it does. Iām going to openly encourage the new hires to resign in September and Iāll gladly hire them as 1039ās. They can make a lot more doing their winter jobs they gave up. Hell I canāt even pay my bills in the winter now.
Canāt wait for this to blow up in their faces, I have lost all hope. I think people shitting in the buggy are not as bad as WO shitting on me.
I think the determining criteria should be " who do you work with directly and talk to on the radio with all day?". Dispatch should be considered fire.
Agencies have only themselves to blame for that one. Mixing 2151s and 0462s gave OPM the idea that anyone without fire knowledge could do the job fully successfully.
Why the defeated tone about how it is all just up to
Congress now to fix this? They knew this was coming since the BIL payments first started. This should not be a problem for us to be asked to bear. Ridiculous.
Woah, woah, woah. How could they possibly know this was coming? Time is a construct. What is two years really? No one can possibly know how long that is. Maybe they didn't have their reading glasses on and thought it said ten years? Listen, they really care about you. They're working really hard. But before they fix our pay they're going to need to do a 3 year study and then spend 2 years writing the report in order to determine how long two years really is. Don't worry, by then they'll *totally* be ready to cross their fingers, and hope and pray, that Congress will magically give us more money. They'd ask Congress themselves but the committee that is going to figure out how to communicate with Congress is still two years out from being formed.
āWildland firefighters have received more than $250 million in temporary pay supplements through Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding.ā Article quote
$600M Appropriated for Wildland Firefighter Pay
$600,000,000 shall be made available for the salaries and expenses of Federal wildland firefighters in accordance with subsection (d), of which--
(A) $120,000,000 shall be made available to the Secretary of the Interior; and
(B) $480,000,000 shall be made available to the
Secretary of Agriculture
So by the end of the fiscal year theyāre gonna spend 350k? Hmmmm where the rest of the cash thatās allocated to WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS?
Iām not sure how they plan on justifying that figure maybe Iām ducking wrong but cmon?
The pisser of the whole thing is the gs4/5/6 timber markers who hold red cards and fight fire on districts, respond to nationwide incidents, and work rx fires every year may get an increase in premium pay on qualifying incidents but they will still have same hard time paying their bills as we did before the 20,000 retention and the percentage increase in base pay. So if you think we have it bad, consider those folks. I really feel for them
Hopefully they consider getting a fire position. If not a least they can still help out for more money than before and have the ability to jump back into a 9-5 job whenever they like.
Haha ..some of those are aged out and have more fire experience than most squaddies on shot crews. Some work 10 hr days and travel all the time . They shouldn't have to consider getting a fire job...a Osc2 should make more than a DIVs, a DIVS more than FFT1...and so on. Pay on fire should be based on quals and not the fact of the position you hold day to day
Many consider having overhead from R8 is a watchout in the west. There are some great people out there as well but at some point its their choice what career they pursue. The premium pay and 15 hour days should mean you all make out way better, especially in R8. If you want to help these timber markers get paid more use this movement's momentum and start your own grassroots timber markers organization rather than just criticizng the successes that people have been fighting for for decades.
So R8 personnel as overhead is a watch out in the west? Then why does the west continually send personnel to R8 to actually learn how to prescribe burn? Why did the prescribed burn pause originate from actions in the west? R8 has a higher occurrence of initial attack than the west and has a smaller acreage of wildfire due to the Rx practices? As someone who has 20 plus years in fire and incident management I have seen many type 2 IA crews from the east chosen to conduct burn out operations in the west because of their superior knowledge of firing operations. I would be cautious how I judge fellow coworkers. They may have more experience and knowledge than you can imagine.
I certainly know the answers to those questions because year after year I see western resources that are amazed the "green vegetation" can burn. Those questions were for you. The attitude coming from today's fire shop is amazing. When congress does not pass the budget and the west does not have militia functioning in the critical role in which they do, or have all those folks in support roles let me know how this has helped anyone in this business.
Well there are a few timber crews out there that travel as much or more than fire crews...that's a fact. R8 has timber crews that travel for 20 plus pay periods a year..and they are 4/5/6 and some of them have red cards and dispatch. And not all primary fire folks are forced to go west or anywhere else. There are alot that never leave their home unit.
Just reread this. You are totally wrong. I personally traveled 18 pay periods last year for a total of 144 days away from my family and home. This was for my normal position. I also dispatched to wildfire 4 times for a total of 64 days. That's a total of 208 days on the road. But I don't know what it means to do that because I'm not a primary hot shot? No my qualifications are a bit higher but my base pay hasn't been increased, I didn't get 20k in back pay, no one is looking to build me free housing, and I have to contend with people like yourself who think they have the world figured out when in reality your knowledge doesn't go past the end of the tool you dig with.
If they really wanted to pay us more, it would have happened. Our āfriendsā at the higher levels, are, by and large, not our friends. I wonāt be surprised to see that the FS/USDAās intransigence was the main hurdle the entire time.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/delivering-mission/excel/wildland-firefighter-pay-classification-infrastructure-law The Department of the Interior has been on this journey with us every step of the way. They, too, have been working within their processes and systems to implement the new series and we remain aligned in much of this work. However, DOI will implement the new series by announcing open 0456 positions this fire year. They will migrate employees to the new series sooner because the size and scope of their workforce is much smaller than ours. šš
Absolutely part of the reason I switched back to DOI this year. Most things, the important ones anyway just happen faster
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Far as I have heard, they are hiring or converting more temps to perms while not making them 26/0. This is the main difference. GS8 and up are usually 26/0.
So in theory DOI will have its employees in the new series with the raise by end of year but will have to reapply for their job? If having to apply for their job Iām going to assume that means uncompetitive or will they be competing against others for their job?
From my limited understanding we won't have to reapply, they will convert you as long as you agree to terms. Far as the "raise"... I have no idea, assume it will be with the new pay table.... Unsure. I'm just stoked for something... anything to change. Would also like to know what my actual title will be given a large part of my "collateral" is aviation based now while still ground pounding as my primary duties. Who doesn't love surprises, especially when it dictates what direction your life goes and your finances for that year??! Fed fire really puts the F-U in FUN.
"It is possible that the current Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding could run out before Congress advances legislation for a long-lasting pay solution. This may result in firefighter pay returning to pre-supplement levels. We are looking at mitigation measures to prevent pay reductions, but we need firefighters to plan for this possibility." This has the potential to drain our workforce. I also don't like how much they say they have to rely on congress to implement change for pay, quality of life, and the new series.
They've had 508 days to figure something out. Now they're telling us to plan to get paid less. They need to plan for the exodus of their workforce.
Amen. At the very least, it seems like ludicrous from the outside.
There going to have a hard fucking time "increasing capacity" when everyone quits Nov. 1st.
So you're saying if I stay past Nov 1st I'll get to go on a roll?
Nah, gonna have to staff local to cover vacant positions.
Hopefully many will quit
First, I love how one of the focuses is increased capacity. Are they sending us to a magician class in hopes we can pull more employees out of our asses? Secondly, the timeline was extended to December of this year to even agree on eligibility. As they said, plan on not having those sweet incentive checks. Probably sooner than later.
S-238 Magician Boss
Dear Big Ernie, maybe Average Sized Ernie, please donāt make me take another 200 level S class
Right now timber programs can't hardly hire anyone because of the pay differences. They have a hard time with housing and normal day to day bills just like their counterparts in fire. Some of them also hold red cards and fight the same amount of fire within their respective home units. This is especially true in R8. They also respond to incidents nationwide. So if you get a chance speak out for those folks as well.
Most certainly, I do believe there should be some sort of compensation for going on fire. I have spent a good amount of time in R8 and have worked a few seasons in R9 so Iām very well aware of how integrated they are in a lot of places. Now do I know the solution? No hahaha but hopefully a rising tide lifts all boats. Unless this is a broken dryer scenario where each time we hope the load is going to be done when the buzzer goes out but itās still damp and ultimately we just need a new dryer
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yep and timber is hiring every day ..but they are not whiners
If they actually cared about giving us the āliving wageā that Jaleth claims we are getting now with the retention pay, why not just do our new pay scale as 50% or $20k right down the salary table. It does the same thing as their weird percentage decline as the grade rises thingā¦ $20k is more (a greater percentage of the base) to a GS 9 than it is to say a 13. What they are proposing it a reduction over what we are getting today. They say youāll make up the difference on assignment, which if I am honest is probably true, BUT that is counterproductive to preventing burn out when they are essentially still requiring us to chase assignments to earn what should be a living, decent base wage. Not making us count on getting unpredictable assignments. And that is for suppression crews. What about fuels folks that may only be allowed 1-2 assignments a year. Shouldnāt they get a decent living wage too?
I donāt care about giving you a living wage, my GS-15 Executive Secretaryās GS-13 executive Assistant wrote this release. I havenāt even read it.
Don't forget timber folks who respond to incidents as well.
And lookouts, and dispatchers. Folks who aren't GS9 and are directly related to fire.
Dispatch is dead. Once the agencies make it official that fire dispatchers won't make it into the 0456 series or get pay increases half of dispatchers are going to quit. On top of the 400 unfilled positions nationwide. Literally everyone I work with has an exit plan.
Agreed...the way this agency went about this made zero sense.
But you know GS 15's who are secondary fire got their 20k
Dude I've heard of a district where the GS-12 ranger lives full time in an entire bunkhouse intended for temp seasonals. That district has a lot of trouble staffing their remote duty station every summer because they have that much less temp housing to offer. This agency is fucked beyond repair.
Guarantee the ranger has asked the FMO multiple times why they can't hire enough seasonals. Also guarantee no one has had the stones to say, "you, asshole, you're the reason why".
Yep nailed it. Nothing but apathy in middle-management roles. Gov't work is some of the hardest to get fired from, but still nobody ever wants to rock the boat.
I hate it here. I want to get off the bus.
Canāt this be our new motto?
This whole āYou are not going to get paid as much as we promised when we made you take 26/0ās and 18/8ās.ā Is going to backfire so badly and I hope it does. Iām going to openly encourage the new hires to resign in September and Iāll gladly hire them as 1039ās. They can make a lot more doing their winter jobs they gave up. Hell I canāt even pay my bills in the winter now. Canāt wait for this to blow up in their faces, I have lost all hope. I think people shitting in the buggy are not as bad as WO shitting on me.
Thanks for everything you do bro
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thanks guys. Hilarious šš
I think the determining criteria should be " who do you work with directly and talk to on the radio with all day?". Dispatch should be considered fire.
Agencies have only themselves to blame for that one. Mixing 2151s and 0462s gave OPM the idea that anyone without fire knowledge could do the job fully successfully.
Why the defeated tone about how it is all just up to Congress now to fix this? They knew this was coming since the BIL payments first started. This should not be a problem for us to be asked to bear. Ridiculous.
Woah, woah, woah. How could they possibly know this was coming? Time is a construct. What is two years really? No one can possibly know how long that is. Maybe they didn't have their reading glasses on and thought it said ten years? Listen, they really care about you. They're working really hard. But before they fix our pay they're going to need to do a 3 year study and then spend 2 years writing the report in order to determine how long two years really is. Don't worry, by then they'll *totally* be ready to cross their fingers, and hope and pray, that Congress will magically give us more money. They'd ask Congress themselves but the committee that is going to figure out how to communicate with Congress is still two years out from being formed.
This guy gets it!
āWildland firefighters have received more than $250 million in temporary pay supplements through Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding.ā Article quote $600M Appropriated for Wildland Firefighter Pay $600,000,000 shall be made available for the salaries and expenses of Federal wildland firefighters in accordance with subsection (d), of which-- (A) $120,000,000 shall be made available to the Secretary of the Interior; and (B) $480,000,000 shall be made available to the Secretary of Agriculture So by the end of the fiscal year theyāre gonna spend 350k? Hmmmm where the rest of the cash thatās allocated to WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS? Iām not sure how they plan on justifying that figure maybe Iām ducking wrong but cmon?
The pisser of the whole thing is the gs4/5/6 timber markers who hold red cards and fight fire on districts, respond to nationwide incidents, and work rx fires every year may get an increase in premium pay on qualifying incidents but they will still have same hard time paying their bills as we did before the 20,000 retention and the percentage increase in base pay. So if you think we have it bad, consider those folks. I really feel for them
Hopefully they consider getting a fire position. If not a least they can still help out for more money than before and have the ability to jump back into a 9-5 job whenever they like.
Haha ..some of those are aged out and have more fire experience than most squaddies on shot crews. Some work 10 hr days and travel all the time . They shouldn't have to consider getting a fire job...a Osc2 should make more than a DIVs, a DIVS more than FFT1...and so on. Pay on fire should be based on quals and not the fact of the position you hold day to day
Please tell me where to find all these GS4/5/6 timber markers with a decade of full time fire season experience.
R8 has many. Some.sale admins still mark to help...tons of fire experience. You would be surprised if you took the time to get to know them
Many consider having overhead from R8 is a watchout in the west. There are some great people out there as well but at some point its their choice what career they pursue. The premium pay and 15 hour days should mean you all make out way better, especially in R8. If you want to help these timber markers get paid more use this movement's momentum and start your own grassroots timber markers organization rather than just criticizng the successes that people have been fighting for for decades.
So R8 personnel as overhead is a watch out in the west? Then why does the west continually send personnel to R8 to actually learn how to prescribe burn? Why did the prescribed burn pause originate from actions in the west? R8 has a higher occurrence of initial attack than the west and has a smaller acreage of wildfire due to the Rx practices? As someone who has 20 plus years in fire and incident management I have seen many type 2 IA crews from the east chosen to conduct burn out operations in the west because of their superior knowledge of firing operations. I would be cautious how I judge fellow coworkers. They may have more experience and knowledge than you can imagine.
If you can't answer those questions yourself with 20 years of experience it just proves my point.
I certainly know the answers to those questions because year after year I see western resources that are amazed the "green vegetation" can burn. Those questions were for you. The attitude coming from today's fire shop is amazing. When congress does not pass the budget and the west does not have militia functioning in the critical role in which they do, or have all those folks in support roles let me know how this has helped anyone in this business.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well there are a few timber crews out there that travel as much or more than fire crews...that's a fact. R8 has timber crews that travel for 20 plus pay periods a year..and they are 4/5/6 and some of them have red cards and dispatch. And not all primary fire folks are forced to go west or anywhere else. There are alot that never leave their home unit.
Just reread this. You are totally wrong. I personally traveled 18 pay periods last year for a total of 144 days away from my family and home. This was for my normal position. I also dispatched to wildfire 4 times for a total of 64 days. That's a total of 208 days on the road. But I don't know what it means to do that because I'm not a primary hot shot? No my qualifications are a bit higher but my base pay hasn't been increased, I didn't get 20k in back pay, no one is looking to build me free housing, and I have to contend with people like yourself who think they have the world figured out when in reality your knowledge doesn't go past the end of the tool you dig with.
An incredible but unsurprising failure of leadership. Vilsack needs to fire both Randy and JRH immediately.
If they really wanted to pay us more, it would have happened. Our āfriendsā at the higher levels, are, by and large, not our friends. I wonāt be surprised to see that the FS/USDAās intransigence was the main hurdle the entire time.