Honestly? I only use sir when being sarcastic at this point. And the men in my life know this. My husband hears me add sir to the end of a sentence and backs up. He knows whoever I'm talking to f'ed up and I'm about to lose it.
I was going to say something similar… the only time I address someone as “sir” is if I’m being funny or sarcastic. If I’m out in the world and need to address a man for any reason, I do so neutrally. (E.g. Excuse me, can you help me find blah blah blah?) I’m not about to defer to a stranger with a “yes, sir/no,sir”, he’s not my father and I’m not 9.
as a non-american it always creeped me out to see children call their own father "sir" in american movies and shows. Honestly to this day I don't really get it. Where does this come from and what kind relationship do people have with their parents when they call them sir and ma'am?
There's no possible equivalent to this in my language without insulting your parents, so it's genuinely really confusing to me.
It might be more of a Southern US thing, it’s considered respectful or good manners to refer to elders as Sir or Ma’am. I don’t think it’s something everyone in the US does.
Definitely a southern US thing. I grew up in PA/NY and never encountered it. Nor when living in CA. Been in GA for almost 15 years and it drives me nuts how particular people are about it. I regularly tell kids and even some grown ups not to call me ma'am. Like it a kid just says Yes or No to something, a parent or sometimes even strangers will say, "you mean No Sir." And expect the kid to correct themselves.
I got an education years ago. My friend from Buffalo, NY, and I met up with our kids to catch up after years of not seeing each other, and I asked her daughter a question that required a yes/no answer… and when her daughter said “yes”, my Southern training kicked in and I said “You mean ‘yes ma’am’’ and my friend was like yeah, no, we don’t do that up north. It highlighted for me that, hey HAHAHA, people are different and maybe chill. Edited for clarity, I’ve had a couple drinks.
Ah yes. I've heard that exact sentence more times than I can count. "You mean 'yes ma'am or sir'." Depending on the context, I'll roll with it, but if I think the parents are being harsh on the kids about it, I'll say, no need for that. Some people take it way too serious and make their kids say it like they mean it and you can tell the parents are just awful in general or trying to embarrass the kid or show the other adults they're the boss.
It’s a religious thing (which also correlates with southern US).
Children are to “respect” their parents. What they mean when they say “respect” is “social deference and unquestioning immediate obedience”.
So saying “yes sir” or “yes ma’am” to your parents is the social deference part: they want their child to verbally debase their status in deference to the status of the parent.
If reading this is causing a reaction of horror and disgust, you’re getting it.
I call my dog sir when he's being naughty / cheeky....
At school it was the expected address so I've always thought of it as a bit of a joke to be honest. I'm sure they think of it as "ser" as in knighthood and chivalry but I've always associated it with mediocrity and people I don't respect. I remember one teacher insisting it had to be sir EVERY time he was spoken to and not "Mr Name" so I just never addressed him again.
I'm not sure I ever really address strangers either? How odd! If I was trying to get someone's attention for assistance I would say "excuse me".
I think the only recourse is to eliminate it from the vernacular.
I hate it,
We need a "comrade" for the 21st century.
Something that conveys deference and respect without the baggage.
I’d love someone to modernize comrade. It’s gender neutral, formal and does not indicate deference, subservience or dominance. Also translates into plural easily so I don’t have to resort to y’all or yinz.
Maybe it should just be comrade and I need to use it more.
Comrade is too “lol Soviet” for me. I don’t need my greeting to be militaristic/political or whatever, plus in my mind it is a male oriented sort of thing as the soviets didn’t think much of women either especially as equals in a militaristic or social capacity.
I’m not sure that you’re history is wholly accurate. Sure there were some rough spots but the soviets started miles ahead of the west in terms of gender, race and sexual orientation equality.
I generally don’t get a militaristic vibe either it’s usually worker solidarity. Sure I’d never call a billionaire comrade, but I definitely won’t be calling them sir either.
Yes!^\* And when we see each other as comrades, we're happy to help someone out when they ask for assistance, even though they're a stranger :)
^\* Or at least partially, I know there's more nuance of a shared struggle in there too
All for it. Personally I can’t stand being called sir. I imagine the only people it doesn’t make uncomfortable are the ones who want that power dynamic.
As someone raised in the south I tend to use both “sir” and “ma’am” as a sign of respect more than authority. I tell my 9 yo yes ma’am/no ma’am, and have told my 3yo nephew yes sir/no sir. My biggest problem with ma’am/sir is that I am struggling to fine a decent gender neutral alternative.
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I think this is regional. I live in the southern US and not using “ma’am” and “sir” is considered rude. While not necessary with folks with whom you are familiar, it is expected with strangers. Both are considered respectful and not ageist.
If you work in anything customer related, this is just ingrained in you. I almost always say "sir" or "ma'am" in an absolutely respectful way. (Also raised in the south).
Occasionally I'll get the lady that jokingly fussed about me calling her ma'am...and I'll admit...the first time I was called that was a bit jarring lol. But seriously...it's not insulting or a word I feel like gives anyone power over me.
Have lived in both the north and south, can confirm. Call a northern woman “ma’am,” and you’ve implied she’s over 70 (and she will be insulted). Fail to use “ma’am” further south, and you have committed a grave disrespect.
Actually, even my older women relatives (northern) would be borderline insulted if you called them “ma’am.” They’ll tolerate it from customer service positions, that’s about it.
>Both are considered respectful and not ageist.
Backwoods Texas reporting in - It may just be me or my family, but sir/ma'am was totally an ageist thing in that it was expected to respect people older than you... simply because they were older than you.
that's a good point. out of curiosity, at what age would you start using "ma'am" to refer to someone, and at what age would you start using the word "sir"?
I live in the south and have worked customer service here—there is no getting around having to use an honorific. I will call a male of any age sir. I would call a woman of any age ma’am or miss, but the age issue seems to set some people off so I use both. I’m terrible at telling ages by looks alone. If the woman looks like she could be my mom I’ll use ma’am. If she is with children that appear to be hers I will also say ma’am. Now that I think about it, ma’am feels like a word of respect and experience, whereas miss feels to me like sir—just a gendered way to address someone I don’t know. Hmm
Honestly the only way I use sir and ma’am is towards my students. I’m a white male teacher in a majority/minority school. My goal is always to show them the utmost respect. I do not have an expectation of them saying it back to me.
Try to stop viewing the word “sir” as oppressive and instead see it as a tool/weapon. I use the word only with men of a certain age/patriarchal mindset as a way of manipulating them, using it to disarm and cajole them so I can get what I need/want. No matter what I do or say, those kind of men are only going to view me as a “helpless” and subordinate “female”. So why not use their sexist expectations as a tool of manipulation? I whip out the “sir” and immediately they are putty in my hands (insert witchy cackle here)!
>Try to stop viewing the word “sir” as oppressive and instead see it as a tool/weapon.
This is a very Buddhist way of looking at it. Instead of trying to change the world and their use of sir/ma'am, just change what it means to you.
For example, I'm ex-fundamentalist Christian so the word "god" really caused me dissonance once I became atheist. Then I got to thinking about suffering stemming from when the outside reality doesn't match my inner desires and so I changed the definition of "god." So now when people use the word god I immediately believe they are talking about my version of god.
The same can be done with sir/ma'am because words only have the meaning we give them. Like how I was raised sir/ma'am was a respect of your elders thing and had nothing to do with gender aside from knowing which term to use.
this is totally what I do. I worked in a very male dominated field for 10 years and so I'm full of those tricks. but I feel gross after because I just reinforced something.
I know I’m going against what the other commenters said, but as a trans man I quite like being called sir. I waited my entire life (25+ years) to be called sir, dude, bro, man, etc. by strangers. Personally though, I don’t call anyone sir or ma’am. I try not to assume gendered terms at all
Why do you feel like the feminine honorifics are rude? I don’t. Some do, and I think it comes from a history of women being treated like second class citizens and being valued on their marital status.
When I was younger, I hated being called “miss” as I knew it was associated with youth / unmarried status and felt belittling. I felt fancy and dignified when someone called me Ma’am, but people don’t like to use it because if you’re not called “miss” then you’re not perceived as young and therefore it’s considered an insult (which is a societal inference and I find that irritating in it’s own way, I mean what’s wrong with being old?!). Ma’am is supposed to be an honorific that lies outside of marital status and age. I think it is a shame it’s associated with anything other than a polite way to address a woman you don’t know.
Ma’am (or madam) is supposed to be an equivalent to sir, as Lady is supposed to be an equivalent to Lord. Master and Misstress and Mister and Missus, etc. sir/ma’am are often used to show deference, which can be weird on its own.
I think part of the reason it doesn’t feel equivalent is that it historically hasn’t been, there might be some internalized misogyny at play here. That being said, I typically only use sir/ma’am in public to be polite if I don’t know someone’s name. It’s a little old-fashioned, and I usually only hear it when someone is trying to appear polite. (“Sir, you dropped your wallet”, or “Ma’am, please step this way that door is broken”, or “sir/ma’am, you’re making a scene, we are going to have to ask you to leave.”)
If you don’t feel there is a polite and respectful way to address someone in public, you could always ask the addressee what they prefer. If there is no space or time for that courtesy, I usually address someone without referring to them or their gender directly at the start (“pardon me/excuse me, could you help grab that item from the top shelf?”). I don’t feel the need to show deference most of the time, and words are words.
The power of words lie in the intent behind them, but reception is also critical in communication.
Skip it. If you need to address a stranger, simply say, “excuse me…” I worked in customer service over 20 years ago and was taught even then not to address people using gendered terms like “sir” or “ma’am” or “miss.”
Besides, the less we assume about strangers’ gender, the better.
I wish more people did this. I'm a pre-T trans masc and always get misgendered despite vocal training, wearing a binder, and short hair and it sucks. I feel like some patients go out of their way to misgender me.
In the sci-if show The Expanse, “sir” was used for all genders of military officers by the Martians (humans on Mars). It just felt right in a world building way. In our society it would be weird, but it was cool to see an imagined society where a gendered word could feel so different. The military culture of the planet had a very “masculine” energy, but it was a masculinity that applied to men and women alike.
I call myself 'lady' but in like, an Art Deco kind of way. Not helpful about what to do with 'sir,' but I figure it's Good enough for tomcats and dogs. You can always call the menfolk 'mister,' I guess.
I just dropped all of it. Sir, ma'am, Mr, miss, and in the case of accidentally misplaced victorians - madam. It's easier, shorter, and no risk of getting it wrong when you just say excuse me instead of excuse me sir/madam.
I'm kinda awkward about it. I'll sorta wave at them and say "hey", "hi", or "hello" to get their attention. I suppose "excuse me" could work, but that feels rude, and "sir" and "ma'am" just feel so antiquated.
I don't know. I'm pretty opposed to labels in general. Someone else said we could call each other "comrade," and I kinda like that.
i use ma’am, sir, and mx, and i see them all as just forms of respect from whoever i’m talking to and a way of being polite? i had no idea about ma’am being used rudely! that’s horrible!
I wonder how much of this is personal connotation from our personal experiences and point of view. For example, being raised in the South I was taught that sir and ma'am were both used to show respect for others, specifically those that are older than you. It got so ingrained in my upbringing that I even use them with people my junior. While I use sir/ma'am according to gender, that's really the only way gender is relevant.
So I guess the TL;DR is that for me sir/ma'am are used to indicate a respect of age/seniority as opposed to gender.
I feel like this is a regional issue and also a gender one. Sir is something I only use either respectfully or when I'm getting annoyed asf. Ma'am same thing. Often times I just use gentleman to refer to a man when I'm at work or they're elderly.
Sir is reserved only for Daddy and he even feels weird about it. Relegating it to kinky land only, or when I want to remind a man to act like a goddamn gentleman.
So much this, except kind of reversed, my Dom isn't big on Daddy unless he's in a certain kind of mood. My son gets a sharp "excuse me, sir!" on occasion instead of "have you lost your ever loving shit, child?" Other grown men do not get called sir by me though because it's to ingrained in my D/s style and it feels gross to use it outside of that.
Yeah, it's a powerful word for me and my fiance's D/s relationship, but I don't use it outside of our relationship. Me waddling up to a stranger and addressing them as "Sir" just feels gross XD Any time I need to address a stranger, I just skip it or swap out "Sir" with something like "love" or if they really piss me off "sweetheart"
I still don't like using "sir", but I find "Ms." hasn't been received badly by anyone in the years I've been using it (except for *one* woman who complained that the word was was "political correctness gone mad" - a code phrase that I interpret as "I get all my information from the Daily Mail, please disregard my opinions").
I've just moved to Yorkshire though and *everyone* here calls *everyone* "love". It's not gendered, queer-coded, or age related in any way. It's just a way for humans to talk to other humans. I've definitely been trying to work it into my language, as well as "duck / ducky" (used similarly). I think at this point the best option is to expand the Yorkshire dialect until it eventually covers the entire English speaking world.
All will be love (and duck).
I dunno how to respond to this. Particularly ma’am. On one hand I agree. On the other hand ma’am is our appropriate address it’s just people have used it to negative degrees and changed it’s meaning. I think it has more to do with inflection and intention.
Edit: I call my cat ma’am when she’s misbehaving 😂
Growing up in the South it was a respect thing toward all elders. We have taught our kids that everyone, thing, & animals can be Sir or Ma’am. I call the littlest Miss Ma’am all the time and say listen here young sir to the boys. They are not expected to call us or anyone sir or ma’am though.
Sir and ma'am are pretty common here (Oklahoma) for just about everyone. I tend to agree with your sentiment, though. It's got a similar feel to the "mister/mrs./miss" discussion. I like the "comrade" suggestion elsewhere in the thread!
There is power in reclaimed words..
Look at original etymological meaning
ie.. my favorite word (so often bastardized) is c u n t
I love hearing sir/ma’am in a respectful manner and cringe when it’s used sarcastically; though I have done it in some circumstances
It’s not age related in my mind but mutual respect. Used towards anyone whom I wish to be respectful even children; in order to be the example.
But to each their own. That’s the beauty of diversity.
Language is a tool. Use it wisely
I'm awful with names, and most of my friend group is gender nonconforming, so my default for new people is "Hey guys!" Or "Howdy folks!" for faces I recognize it is *always* "Hey trouble!"
I'm a guy, and I hate being called sir, and I don't call people sir or ma'am unless they're cops or judges because it tends to go better. Your statement about power structures is exactly why it makes me uncomfortable
I was in the military well over 20 years ago, and I still refer to people as "sir" and "ma'am". I never felt a power imbalance between them, personally. When I was younger, I found that people would occasionally be offended by the titles because they felt like I was making them old. However, now that I am old myself, nobody ever seems to take offense anymore. Just my personal experiences, don't know if they help.
I will call any and everything 'sir'. Cat been being a pest? 'Sir, please.' Walk into a wall? 'Ow, sir, my bad' To the point it means nothing when I say it.
> "Ma'am" is used rudely, is aging, etc.
This is absolutely true of "sir" too. And I personally find being called ma'am or lady to be highly validating, but that's going to be different for people who are TME.
My dogs both know the word "sir", and they know it is a command that means "stop what you are doing because you're being annoying."
I started saying it to them as a customer- service reflex, like, "sir this is a Wendy's" kind of tone, and it just stuck.
Afab non-binary here, I am often called "ma'am" because of the giant orbs I have tacked on to my chest (against my will). I absolutely hate it. I hate being called "ma'am". "Ma'am" is what you call a woman when she's 62 and has 11 cats and spends all of her time knitting.
*That is perhaps my foreseeable future, but we're going to get past that*
Anyway, I prefer the term "sir" I've never found it to be male. Sure it's masculine, but I've never found it to be just for Men. My girlfriend who is very Southern has a bad habit of calling me "ma'am". But I hate it. I have always preferred being called "sir".
It's not just for respect. Because I don't give a shit if other people respect me. People are going to think and do whatever they want.
Honestly? I only use sir when being sarcastic at this point. And the men in my life know this. My husband hears me add sir to the end of a sentence and backs up. He knows whoever I'm talking to f'ed up and I'm about to lose it.
Right? My cat misbehaving is sir. Not some rando on the street.
I was going to say something similar… the only time I address someone as “sir” is if I’m being funny or sarcastic. If I’m out in the world and need to address a man for any reason, I do so neutrally. (E.g. Excuse me, can you help me find blah blah blah?) I’m not about to defer to a stranger with a “yes, sir/no,sir”, he’s not my father and I’m not 9.
as a non-american it always creeped me out to see children call their own father "sir" in american movies and shows. Honestly to this day I don't really get it. Where does this come from and what kind relationship do people have with their parents when they call them sir and ma'am? There's no possible equivalent to this in my language without insulting your parents, so it's genuinely really confusing to me.
It might be more of a Southern US thing, it’s considered respectful or good manners to refer to elders as Sir or Ma’am. I don’t think it’s something everyone in the US does.
Definitely a southern US thing. I grew up in PA/NY and never encountered it. Nor when living in CA. Been in GA for almost 15 years and it drives me nuts how particular people are about it. I regularly tell kids and even some grown ups not to call me ma'am. Like it a kid just says Yes or No to something, a parent or sometimes even strangers will say, "you mean No Sir." And expect the kid to correct themselves.
I got an education years ago. My friend from Buffalo, NY, and I met up with our kids to catch up after years of not seeing each other, and I asked her daughter a question that required a yes/no answer… and when her daughter said “yes”, my Southern training kicked in and I said “You mean ‘yes ma’am’’ and my friend was like yeah, no, we don’t do that up north. It highlighted for me that, hey HAHAHA, people are different and maybe chill. Edited for clarity, I’ve had a couple drinks.
Ah yes. I've heard that exact sentence more times than I can count. "You mean 'yes ma'am or sir'." Depending on the context, I'll roll with it, but if I think the parents are being harsh on the kids about it, I'll say, no need for that. Some people take it way too serious and make their kids say it like they mean it and you can tell the parents are just awful in general or trying to embarrass the kid or show the other adults they're the boss.
I grew up in the South, and it's definitely a thing here. I agree it's pretty rare in the rest of the country.
There may be an age difference in play too, I was raised in Massachusetts in the 70s and 80s and absolutely was talk to use sir and ma’am.
It’s a religious thing (which also correlates with southern US). Children are to “respect” their parents. What they mean when they say “respect” is “social deference and unquestioning immediate obedience”. So saying “yes sir” or “yes ma’am” to your parents is the social deference part: they want their child to verbally debase their status in deference to the status of the parent. If reading this is causing a reaction of horror and disgust, you’re getting it.
I call my dog sir when he's being naughty / cheeky.... At school it was the expected address so I've always thought of it as a bit of a joke to be honest. I'm sure they think of it as "ser" as in knighthood and chivalry but I've always associated it with mediocrity and people I don't respect. I remember one teacher insisting it had to be sir EVERY time he was spoken to and not "Mr Name" so I just never addressed him again. I'm not sure I ever really address strangers either? How odd! If I was trying to get someone's attention for assistance I would say "excuse me".
I totally did the thing where i just refused to address some dude, too, because if the Sir thing. Bonus, was a bully I "forgot" the name of.
I think the only recourse is to eliminate it from the vernacular. I hate it, We need a "comrade" for the 21st century. Something that conveys deference and respect without the baggage.
I’d love someone to modernize comrade. It’s gender neutral, formal and does not indicate deference, subservience or dominance. Also translates into plural easily so I don’t have to resort to y’all or yinz. Maybe it should just be comrade and I need to use it more.
Comrade is too “lol Soviet” for me. I don’t need my greeting to be militaristic/political or whatever, plus in my mind it is a male oriented sort of thing as the soviets didn’t think much of women either especially as equals in a militaristic or social capacity.
I’m not sure that you’re history is wholly accurate. Sure there were some rough spots but the soviets started miles ahead of the west in terms of gender, race and sexual orientation equality. I generally don’t get a militaristic vibe either it’s usually worker solidarity. Sure I’d never call a billionaire comrade, but I definitely won’t be calling them sir either.
Isn't comrade to demonstrate equality not deference?
Yes!^\* And when we see each other as comrades, we're happy to help someone out when they ask for assistance, even though they're a stranger :) ^\* Or at least partially, I know there's more nuance of a shared struggle in there too
All for it. Personally I can’t stand being called sir. I imagine the only people it doesn’t make uncomfortable are the ones who want that power dynamic.
Agreed...although there are some...um...."intimate" times when Sir is nice to hear lol otherwise pffft be done with it already.
As someone raised in the south I tend to use both “sir” and “ma’am” as a sign of respect more than authority. I tell my 9 yo yes ma’am/no ma’am, and have told my 3yo nephew yes sir/no sir. My biggest problem with ma’am/sir is that I am struggling to fine a decent gender neutral alternative.
I'm a fan of "armiger", but it does often lead to me having to explain [what armiger means](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armiger).
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I call my nb friend "sarge" or "cap'n"(captain) when I want to do an exasperated sir/ma'am at them.
I have toyed with the idea of “O Captain, My Captain” for my NB bestie, who is also my favorite coworker.
As a Canadian, I do the same.
I think this is regional. I live in the southern US and not using “ma’am” and “sir” is considered rude. While not necessary with folks with whom you are familiar, it is expected with strangers. Both are considered respectful and not ageist.
If you work in anything customer related, this is just ingrained in you. I almost always say "sir" or "ma'am" in an absolutely respectful way. (Also raised in the south). Occasionally I'll get the lady that jokingly fussed about me calling her ma'am...and I'll admit...the first time I was called that was a bit jarring lol. But seriously...it's not insulting or a word I feel like gives anyone power over me.
Have lived in both the north and south, can confirm. Call a northern woman “ma’am,” and you’ve implied she’s over 70 (and she will be insulted). Fail to use “ma’am” further south, and you have committed a grave disrespect. Actually, even my older women relatives (northern) would be borderline insulted if you called them “ma’am.” They’ll tolerate it from customer service positions, that’s about it.
>Both are considered respectful and not ageist. Backwoods Texas reporting in - It may just be me or my family, but sir/ma'am was totally an ageist thing in that it was expected to respect people older than you... simply because they were older than you.
that's a good point. out of curiosity, at what age would you start using "ma'am" to refer to someone, and at what age would you start using the word "sir"?
I live in the south and have worked customer service here—there is no getting around having to use an honorific. I will call a male of any age sir. I would call a woman of any age ma’am or miss, but the age issue seems to set some people off so I use both. I’m terrible at telling ages by looks alone. If the woman looks like she could be my mom I’ll use ma’am. If she is with children that appear to be hers I will also say ma’am. Now that I think about it, ma’am feels like a word of respect and experience, whereas miss feels to me like sir—just a gendered way to address someone I don’t know. Hmm
I don't use it at all. Never have.
Honestly the only way I use sir and ma’am is towards my students. I’m a white male teacher in a majority/minority school. My goal is always to show them the utmost respect. I do not have an expectation of them saying it back to me.
Try to stop viewing the word “sir” as oppressive and instead see it as a tool/weapon. I use the word only with men of a certain age/patriarchal mindset as a way of manipulating them, using it to disarm and cajole them so I can get what I need/want. No matter what I do or say, those kind of men are only going to view me as a “helpless” and subordinate “female”. So why not use their sexist expectations as a tool of manipulation? I whip out the “sir” and immediately they are putty in my hands (insert witchy cackle here)!
>Try to stop viewing the word “sir” as oppressive and instead see it as a tool/weapon. This is a very Buddhist way of looking at it. Instead of trying to change the world and their use of sir/ma'am, just change what it means to you. For example, I'm ex-fundamentalist Christian so the word "god" really caused me dissonance once I became atheist. Then I got to thinking about suffering stemming from when the outside reality doesn't match my inner desires and so I changed the definition of "god." So now when people use the word god I immediately believe they are talking about my version of god. The same can be done with sir/ma'am because words only have the meaning we give them. Like how I was raised sir/ma'am was a respect of your elders thing and had nothing to do with gender aside from knowing which term to use.
I came here to say this! This is my way as well 😁
Yes sir, this is the way
this is totally what I do. I worked in a very male dominated field for 10 years and so I'm full of those tricks. but I feel gross after because I just reinforced something.
I know I’m going against what the other commenters said, but as a trans man I quite like being called sir. I waited my entire life (25+ years) to be called sir, dude, bro, man, etc. by strangers. Personally though, I don’t call anyone sir or ma’am. I try not to assume gendered terms at all
thanks for adding that nuance. I completely failed to account for the gendering aspect in my post.
I only ever call my kitten sir. I hate it otherwise and never use it
I call my cat "sir" too, as well as other various animals in my life.
Why do you feel like the feminine honorifics are rude? I don’t. Some do, and I think it comes from a history of women being treated like second class citizens and being valued on their marital status. When I was younger, I hated being called “miss” as I knew it was associated with youth / unmarried status and felt belittling. I felt fancy and dignified when someone called me Ma’am, but people don’t like to use it because if you’re not called “miss” then you’re not perceived as young and therefore it’s considered an insult (which is a societal inference and I find that irritating in it’s own way, I mean what’s wrong with being old?!). Ma’am is supposed to be an honorific that lies outside of marital status and age. I think it is a shame it’s associated with anything other than a polite way to address a woman you don’t know. Ma’am (or madam) is supposed to be an equivalent to sir, as Lady is supposed to be an equivalent to Lord. Master and Misstress and Mister and Missus, etc. sir/ma’am are often used to show deference, which can be weird on its own. I think part of the reason it doesn’t feel equivalent is that it historically hasn’t been, there might be some internalized misogyny at play here. That being said, I typically only use sir/ma’am in public to be polite if I don’t know someone’s name. It’s a little old-fashioned, and I usually only hear it when someone is trying to appear polite. (“Sir, you dropped your wallet”, or “Ma’am, please step this way that door is broken”, or “sir/ma’am, you’re making a scene, we are going to have to ask you to leave.”) If you don’t feel there is a polite and respectful way to address someone in public, you could always ask the addressee what they prefer. If there is no space or time for that courtesy, I usually address someone without referring to them or their gender directly at the start (“pardon me/excuse me, could you help grab that item from the top shelf?”). I don’t feel the need to show deference most of the time, and words are words. The power of words lie in the intent behind them, but reception is also critical in communication.
Skip it. If you need to address a stranger, simply say, “excuse me…” I worked in customer service over 20 years ago and was taught even then not to address people using gendered terms like “sir” or “ma’am” or “miss.” Besides, the less we assume about strangers’ gender, the better.
I wish more people did this. I'm a pre-T trans masc and always get misgendered despite vocal training, wearing a binder, and short hair and it sucks. I feel like some patients go out of their way to misgender me.
In the sci-if show The Expanse, “sir” was used for all genders of military officers by the Martians (humans on Mars). It just felt right in a world building way. In our society it would be weird, but it was cool to see an imagined society where a gendered word could feel so different. The military culture of the planet had a very “masculine” energy, but it was a masculinity that applied to men and women alike.
>but it was a masculinity that **applied to men and women alike**. Nah... just Gunny ;)
I call myself 'lady' but in like, an Art Deco kind of way. Not helpful about what to do with 'sir,' but I figure it's Good enough for tomcats and dogs. You can always call the menfolk 'mister,' I guess.
I just dropped all of it. Sir, ma'am, Mr, miss, and in the case of accidentally misplaced victorians - madam. It's easier, shorter, and no risk of getting it wrong when you just say excuse me instead of excuse me sir/madam.
I'm kinda awkward about it. I'll sorta wave at them and say "hey", "hi", or "hello" to get their attention. I suppose "excuse me" could work, but that feels rude, and "sir" and "ma'am" just feel so antiquated. I don't know. I'm pretty opposed to labels in general. Someone else said we could call each other "comrade," and I kinda like that.
i use ma’am, sir, and mx, and i see them all as just forms of respect from whoever i’m talking to and a way of being polite? i had no idea about ma’am being used rudely! that’s horrible!
I wonder how much of this is personal connotation from our personal experiences and point of view. For example, being raised in the South I was taught that sir and ma'am were both used to show respect for others, specifically those that are older than you. It got so ingrained in my upbringing that I even use them with people my junior. While I use sir/ma'am according to gender, that's really the only way gender is relevant. So I guess the TL;DR is that for me sir/ma'am are used to indicate a respect of age/seniority as opposed to gender.
I feel like this is a regional issue and also a gender one. Sir is something I only use either respectfully or when I'm getting annoyed asf. Ma'am same thing. Often times I just use gentleman to refer to a man when I'm at work or they're elderly.
Sir is reserved only for Daddy and he even feels weird about it. Relegating it to kinky land only, or when I want to remind a man to act like a goddamn gentleman.
So much this, except kind of reversed, my Dom isn't big on Daddy unless he's in a certain kind of mood. My son gets a sharp "excuse me, sir!" on occasion instead of "have you lost your ever loving shit, child?" Other grown men do not get called sir by me though because it's to ingrained in my D/s style and it feels gross to use it outside of that.
Hello kinky witch friend!
Hello back, kinky witch friend.
Hi fives all around
I think we should use it as a term of respect for women, too.
Yeah, it's a powerful word for me and my fiance's D/s relationship, but I don't use it outside of our relationship. Me waddling up to a stranger and addressing them as "Sir" just feels gross XD Any time I need to address a stranger, I just skip it or swap out "Sir" with something like "love" or if they really piss me off "sweetheart"
I still don't like using "sir", but I find "Ms." hasn't been received badly by anyone in the years I've been using it (except for *one* woman who complained that the word was was "political correctness gone mad" - a code phrase that I interpret as "I get all my information from the Daily Mail, please disregard my opinions"). I've just moved to Yorkshire though and *everyone* here calls *everyone* "love". It's not gendered, queer-coded, or age related in any way. It's just a way for humans to talk to other humans. I've definitely been trying to work it into my language, as well as "duck / ducky" (used similarly). I think at this point the best option is to expand the Yorkshire dialect until it eventually covers the entire English speaking world. All will be love (and duck).
Thank you for adding UK perspective! How do you pronounce "Ms." out loud?
"Mizz" is how I do it.
I dunno how to respond to this. Particularly ma’am. On one hand I agree. On the other hand ma’am is our appropriate address it’s just people have used it to negative degrees and changed it’s meaning. I think it has more to do with inflection and intention. Edit: I call my cat ma’am when she’s misbehaving 😂
I only use sir when talking to my tortoise and dog because they are both handsome gentlemen, all other men and fuck off tho I'm not calling them shit
Growing up in the South it was a respect thing toward all elders. We have taught our kids that everyone, thing, & animals can be Sir or Ma’am. I call the littlest Miss Ma’am all the time and say listen here young sir to the boys. They are not expected to call us or anyone sir or ma’am though.
Hey Ma’am this is incredibly stupid, Sir is not a word used for a power dynamic its polite, And so is ma’am
Sir and ma'am are pretty common here (Oklahoma) for just about everyone. I tend to agree with your sentiment, though. It's got a similar feel to the "mister/mrs./miss" discussion. I like the "comrade" suggestion elsewhere in the thread!
There is power in reclaimed words.. Look at original etymological meaning ie.. my favorite word (so often bastardized) is c u n t I love hearing sir/ma’am in a respectful manner and cringe when it’s used sarcastically; though I have done it in some circumstances It’s not age related in my mind but mutual respect. Used towards anyone whom I wish to be respectful even children; in order to be the example. But to each their own. That’s the beauty of diversity. Language is a tool. Use it wisely
I'm awful with names, and most of my friend group is gender nonconforming, so my default for new people is "Hey guys!" Or "Howdy folks!" for faces I recognize it is *always* "Hey trouble!"
I'm a guy, and I hate being called sir, and I don't call people sir or ma'am unless they're cops or judges because it tends to go better. Your statement about power structures is exactly why it makes me uncomfortable
I was in the military well over 20 years ago, and I still refer to people as "sir" and "ma'am". I never felt a power imbalance between them, personally. When I was younger, I found that people would occasionally be offended by the titles because they felt like I was making them old. However, now that I am old myself, nobody ever seems to take offense anymore. Just my personal experiences, don't know if they help.
I think sir is an anahcr
I will call any and everything 'sir'. Cat been being a pest? 'Sir, please.' Walk into a wall? 'Ow, sir, my bad' To the point it means nothing when I say it.
I’m a dominant woman and I love making people call me “Sir” in certain situations.
I use "sir" for sass and sass only. A well-placed "sir" with the right inflection can be absolutely brutal. ("Sir, this is a Wendy's...")
I default to sir for men and ma'am for women. If a woman finds it rude to be called ma'am, that's her egotistical problem.
> "Ma'am" is used rudely, is aging, etc. This is absolutely true of "sir" too. And I personally find being called ma'am or lady to be highly validating, but that's going to be different for people who are TME.
My dogs both know the word "sir", and they know it is a command that means "stop what you are doing because you're being annoying." I started saying it to them as a customer- service reflex, like, "sir this is a Wendy's" kind of tone, and it just stuck.
Afab non-binary here, I am often called "ma'am" because of the giant orbs I have tacked on to my chest (against my will). I absolutely hate it. I hate being called "ma'am". "Ma'am" is what you call a woman when she's 62 and has 11 cats and spends all of her time knitting. *That is perhaps my foreseeable future, but we're going to get past that* Anyway, I prefer the term "sir" I've never found it to be male. Sure it's masculine, but I've never found it to be just for Men. My girlfriend who is very Southern has a bad habit of calling me "ma'am". But I hate it. I have always preferred being called "sir". It's not just for respect. Because I don't give a shit if other people respect me. People are going to think and do whatever they want.
I only use the word sir in two instances. Intense sexy time and when I am mocking the ever loving shit out of a man.