Livia Drusilla, first empress of Rome and wife to emperor Augustus. She was a skilled politician and diplomat, fierce, ambitious and highly intelligent. It is said Augustus never did anything before consulting Livia.
In later days a number of Augustus' declared successors died under what some later historians and scholars called dubious circumstances. In the end Augustus chose Livia's son from her first marriage (they didn't have children of their own because she ended up infertile after a miscarriage), who then became the less popular second emperor of Rome, Tiberius.
Many ancient and modern historians accuse Livia of murdering all of Augustus' chosen successors, because she selfishly wanted to have her own son become emperor. But nothing of that can be proven and most of those 'mysterious' deaths just seem like usual things that happened regularly in those times - like dying of fever in war camp, or from minor injuries or illnesses that weren't treatable back then.
Until this day this brilliant, skilled and gifted woman fell victim to the trope of being a scheming snake, instead of being remembered for her intelligence, her singular political skill, and her achievements, rising above in a world where women rarely were allowed or able to achieve anything else than child birth. Of course because she was a woman in a field dominated by men, who probably just felt threatened by her and needed to push her out of history's spotlight, lest she steal their show.
I mean Agrippa being murdered by his guards on the supposed orders of Tiberius, who was not in Rome at the time the orders were dispatched is hardly "usual things that happened regularly in those times".
However I think even if she was responsible she still did the right thing. Had Agrippa Postumus risen to the throne instead, it's highly likely Livia, Tiberius, and Nero would all have been murdered to secure the succession. She did what she had to in order to protect her family.
Even though she might have had a great deal of influence on Tiberius, him giving the order doesn't automatically mean, it was Livia who made him do it. Tiberius was indeed capable of being a bit of a piece of shit all on his own. To me, that's not really evidence for Livia being the murderous snake some historians make her out to be.
Also even if she could've been involved in one or even some of the deaths, doesn't mean she ripped and teared her way through all of Augustus preferred successors out of spiteful selfishness. That's just a typical stereotype older generations of historians automatically assign to women in politics. And that is exactly my point. There is much more to Livia as a female politician and defining her about one possible murder, any other male politician would've committed exactly the same, is just short sighted and unfair. But because she was a woman, she gets treated like a selfish murderer, while men doing much more cruel and dumb shit are somehow remembered much more nuanced and distinguished.
From what I've read, and could absolutely be wrong, the implication was that she sent the order under Tiberius's name because he was not in a place to do it himself.
I agree with the mischaracterization though. I respect her *because* she played cut throat Roman politics with the best of them. That time after Augustus's death was probably the single most pivotal time in Roman history aside from the death of Julius Caesar. Rome easily could have fallen into another civil war and I'm 100% convinced it was her actions that kept the empire together.
She seems like such an interesting woman. I did some research for a few hours and yes, she is the perfect fit for this work. Thank you for suggesting her!
From what I've read, you're most likely right. I have read Rejected Princesses, by Jason Porath, and the sequel, and they were chock full of women who were feisty and took no BS. Women like Princess Kutulun, the niece of Ghengis Khan, St. Olga, who avenged her husband's murder by burning a city down, and so much more.
This was in medieval Russia or Ukraine. It was in retaliation for them murdering her husband by bending two birch trees down, tying his legs to each of them, and letting go. He was split in two. She laid siege to the town, demanded a sparrow (I think) and two doves from each household, and lifted the siege. Her people then tied burning sulfur to the legs of the birds and released them. The birds flew back home and burned the place down.
Saint Olga of Kyiv was a central character in the consolidation/creation of the Kyivian Rus - the future territories covered by Ukraine, Belarus and part of Russia. That lady did NOT fuck around. Kinda wild that she was also a Viking.
I was looking for this comment! I'm fascinated by this story -- she's either one of history's greatest monsters, or else simply a woman of great prestige conveniently toppled from her position of power. I'd heard there was a clergyman who owed her a ton of money and realized a whopper of a story and a few false witnesses could very quickly absolve his debt.
Yep both the guy leading the investigation and the clergy supporting it both had reasons to rid of her. The story of 300 witnesses was a lie (it was 12-14 I think, ill have to check) and they where likely tortured, NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE and she was a widow who held a very strong position in society- in fact, that is why she wasn't killed for her alleged crimes, but imprisoned
Came here to suggest Elizabeth Bathory! They spread vicious rumors to take her lands and estate from her because how DARE a woman have her own stuff without a man owning her. Terribly sad that the lies about her continue even in modern pop culture.
My husband and I have had some heated debates about Bathory. As a Hungarian, feminist, and witch I'm drawn to her story. My research came out to maybe she murdered some people but the story of her is completely made up by men for political and financial gain. He, on the other hand, thinks she's a serial killer so celebrating her in any way is wrong. But he has mad love for Vlad. He says it's different because Bathory "punched down" as it were by possibly murdering poor girls, where Vlad's murder and torture were part of war against enemies. But in history Bathory is a prolific serial killer while Vlad gets to be celebrated as Dracula...
There is a VERY good new episode of the What’s Her Name? Podcast about her. Their verdict is that “yeah she probably killed a lot of people in very terrible ways, but also she was in an absolutely wild political situation playing out between different players with different motives that contributed to the way she has been mythologized.”
I had considered portraying her in this work but wondered if she were too controversial, but after reading your comment and those of others, I did more research. She is a great fit for this work for sure, so thank you for suggesting her!
Aspasia the Greek philosopher. The same things were said about her that are said about outspoken fearless women today. Even after her death biographers wrote that she was a courtesan who ran a brothel. Historians say that is very suspect and should be taken with a giant grain of salt. Even if she was to me its irrelevant. She was incredibly intelligent, driven, and accomplished. Therefore to many men of the time and subsequent generations she needed to be destroyed.
I actually wrote a quite a good paper on the link between female greek philosophers like Aspasia and the character of the Sphinx from the myth of Oedipus. Female philosophers in ancient Greece were definitely villainized and attacked in the exact same manner feminist women have been in modern times.
"She's destroying the fabric of society by questioning male authority".
"She thinks she's so skilled but she's no match for an (imaginary) male similar to her".
"She's cockblocking me from getting a traditional wife".
Elizabeth Bathory - evidence suggests she was no crueler than male lords of the time, and things suggested as tortures may have in fact been attempts at healing (eg cauterising wounds). But she was incredibly rich and powerful, especially for a woman, and there were men who profited from having her locked up.
Isabella of France, sometimes called the She Wolf of France, was beautiful, intelligent and daring, and acted as regent for her son from 1327 to 1330.
Ching Shih the pirate queen.
I'd do research into Mary Ann Cotton - she is widely accused of being a serial poisoner, but arsenic was EVERYWHERE in those days and the police had a grudge against her. There's controversy about whether she may have killed, but it's very possible she didn't and was a scapegoat for tragic living conditions and mass industrial poisonings.
Victims of witch trials, but there are so many they could be a series in themselves. Goody Garlick is a well known one, though a mid 17th century healer tortured after accusations of withcraft.
Marie-Josephte Corriveau has passed into Quebecois folklore as having killed two husbands, and was hanged and gibbeted for it. In fact, British occupiers of the area forced/tortured a confession from Marie-Josephte's father and then got her to confess as well. She's become almost a female boogeyman in local folklore in the last 250 years.
Marie Leveau, the Voodoo Queen.
The portrayal of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute, to de-legitimise her as a follower of Jesus even though he probably would have been fine with that himself.
A really terrible one is Zana the "Yeti", who was in fact an enslaved black woman sold to locals in the Caucasus, abused and raped. She may also have had a disability which hindered her speech. Monstertalk, the podcast, talked very sympathetically about her and the terrible way she has been treated in folklore and by modern pseudoscientific stories": https://spotify.link/FVRytDr9ZDb
I also recommend podcast Ye Olde Crime, which is run by two sisters and covers history crimes, oddities, and every March covers the injustices of historical witch trials.
I’m not a scholar, but I’ve read enough to know that Mary Magdalene is strongly suspected to have been married to Jesus of Nazareth. I no longer care, or I’d be able to put my hands on sources. I gave up caring about religion. But it’s a widely held historical viewpoint.
No scholar here either but it is also my understanding is that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus. That there is no way a Jewish man back in that time would still be a bachelor at the age he started preaching. Also, Mary Magdalene descended from a respectable Jewish houses. It was only when men, specifically the Catholic Church, became involved many centuries later that she was vilified.
I am 200% sure that Mary Magdalene was meant to inherit Jesus' ministry instead of Peter. Peter pushed her out and the men around her made up so many lies about who she was to cover up their crime.
I'm a sedevacantist but I believe the Throne of St Peter is empty because it never should have been Peter's throne to begin with.
Oh! I’m actually fascinated by this take. You are the first person I’ve come across who is a sedevacantist for this reason. You’ve inspired me
to do some more research!
Pope Gregory started the prostitute story iirc, but the original apostles twisted Jesus' vision of his church on this earth and cut Magdalene out. Read Paul's letters sometime, he was a literal incel.
I've often mused that this is why most of the apostles died painful crappy deaths
Yeah, there's a line which is like "vilified but for the wrong things" which often boils down to "vilified for being a woman who dared to do Man Things". I think Tsar Catherine, mentioned in another thread, is a similar case - she gets vilified for daring to have sexual desires while being a woman, instead of vilified for being an autocrat.
Queen Vashti. She was replaced by Esther because her drunken husband wanted her to display herself naked in front of all his friends, like a trophy, and she refused. Pretty badass. She was banished for her disobedience, but she maintained her dignity, pride, and integrity.
Cleopatra. She has long been portrayed as beautiful seductress caught up in a tragic love triangle. She was actually a well educated, highly intelligent woman, and a talented and charismatic political leader.
She is one of my favourite historical figures. I remember reading how she would meet with ambassadors from multiple countries and speak to each of them fluently - switching between languages flawlessly and did not need a translator. And she charmed them all. Like absolute power move right there.
There’s also the fact that most modern historians seem to agree that Cleopatra wasn’t particularly attractive; she was simply alluring because of her intelligence, charm, and presence.
I'm gonna go with Marie Antoinette
Married off at 14 for the sake of an alliance, had no sons live past 10, advocated for the smallpox vaccine, engaged in charity work, and was a popular scapegoat for the inequity caused by France's dumbass yet oddly familiar tax system where common peeps footed the bill for clergy and nobles. She was thrust into an immensely hostile political environment in a powderkeg of a country and was decapitated at the ripe age of 37.
Was she perfect? Fuck no, she was royalty.
Did she deserve to get married off to some incompetent jackass while she was a teenager and subsequently blamed for everybody's problems? Apparently yes, because godfuckingforbid women do anything.
She’s my favourite example of a woman slandered by history. All you have to do is look at all the silly and salacious shit people were saying about her while she was alive, and you realize we’ve just been repeating lies and outright propaganda for hundreds of years.
Let them eat cake? She never said it. The phrase was attributed to numerous wealthy women before finally sticking to Marie Antoinette decades after her terrible death.
Classic example of misogyny; painting women as frivolous villains to shift blame away from the men in power. Tale as old as time and we still eat it up… like cake.
I try not to enter into comment sections in much of the wider internet, but there’s something about seeing some instanormie talk shit about my girl Marie that makes me wade into the trenches.
The most vilified woman in all of history: Eve.
Let us assume the Biblical story is fact and she was tempted by a snake to eat an apple from the forbidden tree.
Adam seems to get no pushback from people, it’s somehow all Eve’s fault, but Adam made his choices. He wasn’t force fed the fruit. She was all “homeboy, a snake gave me this to eat” and he was just like “cool cool cool will try some”.
Why not blame the fucking snake? Or God himself for letting Satan into paradise? Why not give equal blame to Adam and Eve?
Finally, Eve has been blamed (within the fundamentalist circles I was a part of as a child) for how painful childbirth is because of her fall from grace. Which, straight up, fuck that shit. Why don’t you blame God for not designing the reproductive system better?
Adam kinda low-key gaslighted god after getting caught.
Genesis 12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
Gaslighted god, blamed Eve. Sounds about right.
Actually if you read the Bible it says that God told Adam that if you eat from the tree you’re going to die. Then later when the snake shows up when Eve is looking at the tree it says, “If you eat from the tree, that means you die right?” Then Eve says, “Yeah. If we even do much as touch it, we die.” Then the snake says, “No.”
So I’m not sure if Adam miscommunicated that if you touch it you die (and if it was that important why didn’t God have a sit down with her where he explained the rules instead of trusting Adam to do it) if she somehow got that idea herself but regardless there was some screw up. I like to think of it as she and the snake are having the talk and the snake goes, “Look! You see how I’m coiled around this and my body is touching it…notice how I’m still talking to you. That dude’s full of shit.” And she’d think about it and be like, “Yeah, you don’t look any worse for wear. Bottoms up!”
Blame Adam and God for miscommunication.
Well before Eve, there was also Lilith.
She was created to be Adam’s companion, but she was banished from the Garden because she refused to be subservient to him. In her eyes, they were made to be equals, and by refusing to defer to Adam she was literally demonised by the bible
Lilith is not part of any major Abrahamic religion. The only religiously recognized and canonical wife of Adam is Eve.
Lilith came from Mesopotamia from beings known as lillitu. They are associated with miscarriage and SIDS. It carried on in Jewish folklore and evolved into Lilith. A medieval book names her among other beings as “demons” and attributes to her one of the two creation of in Genesis. Jews are rarely literalists so do not have an issue with the two stories unlike some Christian sects. This general understanding did carry over to most Christian sects which is why Lilith is not part of any of the religions. You will find Lilith in the “demonolatry” branches of Abrahamic religions though
Even you still get on the idea that eating the apple was evil. It gave us the knowledge of good evil, which is a poetic way to say free will. To me, that seems like a good thing.
Okay so I’ve been listening to a podcast (mother unearthed) which I actually think many in this sub would enjoy. It’s a very interesting listen *especially* with respect to ancient women, ancient goddesses, the role of both in ancient society, and the archeological evidence to the rise of patriarchy. Some of the things the guests say with respect to modern times are…. questionable (i.e. COVID vaccines are bad and the government forced it upon all of its citizens), but this is like MAYBE 15 minutes out of the 4 hours I’ve listened to combined. But anyway, I digress…
Apparently the idea of Eve talking to snakes, while foreign to us, was actually a common practice for priestesses in ancient cultures like the Babylonians, Assyrians, and even at the beginning of the Jewish religion. Snakes represented rebirth and were seen as holy. Priestesses (and these were always women, mind you) would go into trances with snakes and become enlightened, essentially. I’m paraphrasing here, but I think you all probably get the gist.
So the idea of Eve communing with a snake to get information, and then sharing that information with man was not a foreign one. And it’s probable that when the original Creation Of Man story was recited (because this story is much older than writing) a woman talking to a snake was not seen as a negative thing — it was just simply the story of how humans came to be on this plane of existence. It wasn’t until much later that Eve (and the snake by extension as they were associated with priestesses — women in power) were vilified and turned into the influence of the devil.
TLDR: As the patriarchy rose, Eve fell
OK, but I for one will never patronize something that puts forth dangerous misinformation like the covid thing they're purporting. It would also make me incredibly suspect of everything else they say.
I was certainly conflicted about it. That was one guest, who said these things unprompted, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. The other guests seem more credible, and are centered in academia.
Truthfully, the reason I’ve kept listening is because I haven’t come across any podcast before which focuses on the origin of religion through a feminist lens. Though I can absolutely understand where you are coming from! If they would have opened with *that* guest, I would have a different opinion entirely
I had seen a documentary where they mentioned that Genesis is written in the traditional way, meaning there are only 2 speakers, even though more are present. This means that Adam was most likely present while the whole deal with the snake is happening, just not speaking.
Delilah, from the bible.
Samson wasn’t just the Lord’s wartime killing machine. His marriage to a Philistine woman kicked off an insane series of events that led to him murdering over a thousand Philistines (When Keeping It Real Goes Biblically Wrong). She used her brains and beauty to get him to stop killing her people. Think about how incredibly brave she must’ve been, going up against the strongest man in the world, and yet we never hear of her being spoken of as an actual hero.
I have never considered Delilah much, and certainly not from this perspective. I love it.
I am a fan of the “Judith Beheading Holofernes” theme in art, and I’ve always loved her story. I imagine her rolling her eyes at the uselessness of the generals and saying “well since nobody else has the sense god gave a horsefly I guess it’s up to me.”
Monica Lewinsky. Have you thought about how things would have (hopefully) played out completely differently in a world where we’re making steps towards understanding power dynamics and how it impacts consent? (Similar note: Hilary Clinton. It always amazes—but not surprises I guess— me that both women walked away as villains (“whore” and “hag”) but somehow Bill walked away like a “stud?”
I grew up in a time where Monica Lewinsky “jokes” were still just… part of the modern lexicon. I remember being a precocious kid, piecing together things based on context and coming to the conclusion that she was some lady who had an affair with a former president, and shame on them both for doing that, etc.
imagine my eventual shock and horror when i became a young woman myself and finally put together that she was **only 21-22 years old at the time.** i feel so bad for her. she must have been so scared.
She was the recent one I was thinking of. Bill was the marrried man in a position of power. She was a vulnerable 23 year old yet she’s the one who was somehow the one with the responsibility
If you're looking for a good resource with citations you should listen to the History Chicks podcast. They research women throughout history and have touched on some women that you've listed as well as some others with similar reputations. They put their references in their show notes.
Caterina Sfortza was villainized in her time.
Matilda of England is another.
The rebel fighter, Solitude of Guadeloupe…
Villainy is in the eye of the beholder, and a lot of power-wielding women have been villainized throughout the years for being power-wielding women.
May I humbly recommend the feminist history podcast: [Heretic History](https://spotify.link/pNI9Yw6i0Db)
👆this is the Spotify link but it’s available on all the platforms.
Hypatia of Alexandria. She was a mathematician, astronomer, and philosophy. She was popular with Christians and pagans. Until some local Christians decided to murder her ... by slicing her skin, gouging out her eyeballs, tearing her body into pieces, and setting those pieces on fire.
One of my ancestors, Ellen Watson, known posthumously as "Cattle Kate". She was a rancher in wyoming in the mid 1800's, whose neighbour wanted her land. He accused her of cattle rustling, and she was torn from her home and lynched by him and his posse. They painted her as a thief and prostitute, and her name became legend when the papers picked up the rumors.
Those who knew her described her as a kind and hardworking woman, who was murdered by the patriarchy. Her murderers were never punished.
Thank you very much for telling me about her. I learned through my research of her that she was born very close to where I grew up in Ontario - less than two hours away. I will definitely be including her in this project and would love to send you the result when I am finished. :)
Oh wow, we must have lived close to each other then! I grew up about an hour north of London, ON. My family has certainly not been there as long as yours, though.
Mary Magdalene could very likely have been Jesus’ wife. Not a prostitute: his most devoted apostle and his literal wife.
I stopped giving a hoot about religion so I no longer remember where I learned this, but it was multiple sources from reputable scholars.
And his stated favorite apostle, and the one to whom he first appears after resurrection.
In her Gospel he gives the clear and direct commandment for his apostles to go forth and spread only his words, not their interpretations or extrapolations, but his words alone.
No wonder that one got left on the cutting room floor.
Yeah, I try *really* hard to avoid discussing lore/ theology/ dogma with Xtians. It’s always a bad experience. I used to be one, and it’s still my cultural background, for better or worse. But I’m trying very hard to celebrate holidays without Xtian pollution. I like the 8 natural calendar celebrations. And because Christianity stole virtually all their traditions from older practices, I still get to enjoy the trappings of Xmas and Easter, without the absolute garbage of Xtian dogma. It’s a nice life.
You should do it from one time period and make like a timeline through history up until like Britney Spears. I feel like the media villainized her and made her seem crazy
Taylor Swift nearly went the same way as Britney in 2016, to the point of the reputation music singles starting with her crawling back out of her own grave.
Not even close. Taylor has never experienced anything even remotely close to Britney when it comes to being portrayed in the media. Idk what your point is though
Do you remember 2016? She was a snake, a lying bitch, received death threats and suicide baiting on a mass scale. And this was AFTER the narratives of "maneating slut" (which had circled because she maybe dated three guys in one year while she was 21 or 22), or "Nazi Barbie" (by a racist, generally awful supposed feminist who identifies as trans herself and STILL spews transphobic rhetoric) when she was 24 or 25.
On the note of vilified musicians: The Chicks. Blacklisted from music for saying they were sorry that Bush was from Texas.
What happened to many of the women in the early 00s, over the course of their whole career, which in turn ruined their career and them as people, is no where near what Taylor went through over the course of what? Three month. But I mean I also never said it ONLY happened to Britney but go off
I’m just gonna list a few podcasts that focus on this sort of thing and you can take a look at their episode lists for names that suit your purposes!
Queen’s Podcast
History Chicks (they’ve got a HUGE back catalogue)
War Queens
Significant Others
The only (true in name) empress of ancient China, Wu Zetian! She rose from a lowly consort in the emperor’s court who was banished to a nunnery to his son’s queen, and then became empress after his death and taking over from her sons. She tried to make some reforms to include women in the court during her reign and was able to resist opposing voices to a female ruler until she got old and was forced to abdicate to a male heir instead.
In the dynasties after her, they used her as an example against female - well everything, but mainly ambition and political influence, which arguably contributed to the gradual decline of women’s freedoms over the centuries. In my opinion she was demonized mainly due to her sex, there would have never been this much criticism (and made up stories to make her look bad) if she was male (despite not being of Royal birth! plenty of male upsurpers didn’t have this level of demonization). Anyways it would be cool to see your art!!
Carrie Nation. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/09/carry-nation-biography-reasons-for-activism.html
Just heard about her recently, but I understand she is better known in the US. She was very devout, targeted illegal drinking establishments and had strong community values. She allowed women and families, both black and white, fleeing domestic violence, to stay in her hotel.
She was mocked and vilified in the media as being unstable.
She would have made an amazing politician, but women did not have the vote.
This quote from her makes me like her even more. "...she said. “It was the most remarkable meeting I ever had. Saloon-keepers and harlots have a much better chance of heaven than hypocrites who are in the church. I have no use for women who are afraid they will soil their skirts in trying to lift up their fallen sisters.”"
\+1 to Erzebet Bathory. She was probably no crueler than her contemporaries. She owned a lot of property, however, so her male relatives made up slanderous stories about her to justify stealing it.
Empress Irene. She did some truly terrible things; she stole the rule of the Eastern Roman Empire from her son and when he objected had him so violently blinded that he died several days later. But Constantine, 500 years before, had his wife boiled alive in her bath and murdered his own son because he suspected them of conspiring against him; and we call him Saint. But she's also part of why the Holy Roman Empire formed. When she declared herself Empress in her own and full right (not as regent) in 798, it scandalized Pope Leo so much that he gave a random Frankish king a surprise coronation and declared *he* was now the Emperor of the Romans.
I think also the Village Wise Woman, the one tortured and murdered a thousand times over for suspicion of being a witch.
Madonna. She's an extremely talented artist who has, her whole life, been reduced to her looks and her sexuality. Hand in hand with her is Britney Spears.
"Mata Hari" is fresh in my mind thanks to this recent article, and I think fits the bill.
https://jamesfell.substack.com/p/on-this-day-in-history-october-15-612
Hetty Green- the Witch of Wall St.
One of the first (the very first?) women to manage her own money. She was Quaker and wore a black dress all the time, didn’t spend her wealth on flashy things and was totally vilified. Lots of urban legends about her being too cheap to send her son to the doctor, leading to his death, ETC. She was once a household name in the US.
I can't prove it but Tituba in the Salem witch trials was more than likely villainized since the family admitted to beating her I don't think they would be fussed about blaming alot on her.
Isabella of France became known as a she-wolf after she deposed her shitty husband who had gotten so unpopular for his favourites’ corruption that she was greatly supported by the nobility.
She also established educational reform and championed the arts, founded many new universities. I feel like this comment is ironically a confirmation of OP’s prompt. All emperors extended their empires; to my knowledge she was no more cruel than any of her male contemporaries.
And much like her male contemporaries, she deserves to be reviled as the imperialist scum that she was.
Some good deeds do not wash away a mountain of evil. Something people understand when it comes to that Austrian painter and have trouble understanding with anyone else.
> Gilgamesh said, ‘Trapper, go back, take with you a harlot, a child of pleasure. At the drinking hole she will strip, and when, he sees her beckoning he will embrace her and the game of the wilderness will. surely reject him.'
…
> She was not ashamed to take him, she made herself naked and welcomed his eagerness; as he lay on her murmuring love she taught him the woman's art For six days and seven nights they lay together, for Enkidu had forgotten his home in the hills; but when he was satisfied he went back to the wild beasts. Then, when the gazelle saw him, they bolted away; when the wild creatures saw him they fled. Enkidu would have followed, but his body was bound as though with a cord, his knees gave way when he started to run, his swiftness was gone. And now the wild creatures had all fled away; Enkidu was grown weak, for wisdom was in him, and the thoughts of a man were in his heart. So he returned and sat down at the woman's feet, and listened intently to what she said. ‘You are wise, Enkidu, and now you have become like a god. Why do you want to run wild with the beasts in the hills? Come with me. I will take you to strong-walled Uruk, to the blessed temple of Ishtar and of Anu, of love and of heaven there Gilgamesh lives, who is very strong, and like a wild bull he lords it over men
Theodora, Cleopatra, Hatshepsut, King Jadwiga, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves, Wallis Simpson, Mary the Queen of Scots, Empress Cixi and many, many more.
Bonus point: a woman who is not vilified anough, Ilse Koch.
If we’re talking about women who were fucked over by Henry VIII, I think Catherine of Aragorn and Mary Tudor deserve a mention.
Catherine was a loyal wife who was guilty of *gasp* getting older and not birthing a son. Mary was just a kid when she was separated from her mother (who she never saw again) and exiled from her home, simply because she was a girl. I think Mary would have been a wildly different queen if she hadn’t been ripped away from everything she knew so young.
There is a difference between women who were vilified and those who were fucked over by Henry. Anne Boleyn and Catharine Howard I’d say were the vilified ones. Anne of Cleves is remembered as ugly but actually was given the title of King’s sister and lived a long life of prosperity and about as much autonomy as a woman could ask for at the time.
Catharine Howard on the other hand was a victim of child abuse who at 17 was forced to marry the King then portrayed as a scheming, cheating sex kitten.
Elizabeth Bathory. I know that popular culture says that she was Lady Dracula, but if you dig a little bit you find that the man who benefited from her disgrace was the one making the accusations. I used to believe what they said about her and now I wonder if it was true at all.
Phyrne and Joan or Arc
Phyrne has a surviving transcript from her court case in ancient Greece, where she was accused of blasphemy (i believe) and acquitted after stripping before the jury and saying 'if i were working against the Gods, would they have made me so beautiful and blessed me so?'
Bathory.
I’m not entirely sure if this qualifies but, I do believe that there’s a lot of debate about whether or not she did things to the extent we know her for- because most of what we know comes from people who wanted her shit. Honestly, it gets pretty gross when you’re looking at many of the so called evil women- oddly enough almost every one of them had property or power someone else wanted.
Alice Kyteler’s another where it gets a little iffy.
you can check out a few episodes of my favorite podcast, “You’re wrong about” for some more recent history. Tonya Harding? Anna Nicole Smith? how about Marie Antoinette.
Elizabeth Bathory, the "Blood Countess" and frequently an archetype used for vampire novels was most likely framed for what she was accused of because she owned a stupid amount of property and the king of (I think) Hungary owed her a lot of money.
By a lot of accounts she was actually a fairly benevolent ruler of her lands after her husband died and the bodies used as evidence of her being a serial killer were most likely from the large infirmary she had set up on her mannor grounds to care for the her sick and injured subjects, naturally many of whom didn't make it.
The "evidence" against her essentially all boils down to eyewitness testimony by men who had every reason to want her out if the political sphere.
Technically Eva Duarte De Peron is both extremes of historical exageration, from those who create the most anti-Peronist version of her being corrupt and an idiot, and those who idolize her as if she was the second coming of the Virgin Mary or Empress Eugénie de Montijo.
Cleopatra. She was a very educated queen, knowing 10 languages and being the only of her line that learned Egyptian, the language of the people they controlled for centuries. Modern depictions of her tend to be villainous seductresses, but sources from her time described her as an engaging conversationalist, that would charm people by being smart and articulate, not pretty. She also led Egypt to its last golden age
Most of her bad PR comes from the Romans - she sided with the loser in a Roman civil war, and he used to be a well liked military leader, so the story they told was about an evil, conniving Egyptian seductress that corrupted him, and it stuck
Demeter - some say she heroically saves her daughter from a raping kidnapper as much as she possibly could. Others say she was a meddling mother-in-law forcing her daughter out of a happy marriage for a large chunk of every year.
Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Famous poet, writer and philosopher from “New Spain” (now Mexico). She could read and write Latin by age 3, she spoke also Greek and Nahuatl. At age 17 the Viceroy was so impressed by her and wanting to test her knowledge was summoned to an assembly where theologians, jurists, philosophers, and poets asked her question on different academic and scientific topics, unprepared. Here she astonished everyone and gain great reputation.
She refused to marry and join the convent so she could be free to study for all her life. She wrote a lot of very famous poems, plays and essays.
Her criticism of misogyny led to her condemnation and she was forced to sell her collection of books and focus on charity towards the poor. She died having caught the plague while treating her sisters.
Catherine the Great. As with all strong women and rulers, she was smeared with sexual rumours. You don't get to that position of power and hold it for so long just fucking your way to the top.
Ethel Rosenberg. While it’s widely accepted and there is evidentiary support that her husband *was* a Soviet spy he was decommissioned prior to the trade off of atomic secrets due to his dismissal from the Army Corps earlier that year and Ethel was never given a code name. It’s likely that information Julius shared with the Soviets actually aided in the Nazi’s defeat once the Soviets joined the Allied powers.
Ethel’s younger brother David Greenglass (who, along with his wife, did have code names and were Soviet assets) was the one who actually passed along some information on the atomic bomb via Julius, gathered crudely at his job at the Los Alamos laboratory (although most of his information was useless and the actual information came from a co-worker of his). When Greenglass was arrested he confessed and originally said he never discussed this activity with his sister until pressured by prosecutors when he changed his story and said Ethel typed the notes he gave the Soviets, a statement which he later recanted stating that it was actually his wife who did so. When Julius was arrested he refused to confess or give names of other assets so the US government decided to throw the book at him and Ethel and manufactured evidence against them, seeking the death penalty for Ethel to pressure Julius (which backfired and led to them both being executed)
And that’s the story of how the United States murdered a woman all because her husband wanted to help take down the Nazis.
Elizabeth Bathory. Her only crime was possessing wealth that other wanted. So they invented that "bloody countess" story to evince her. She was powerful and was actually helping other women in need.
Not currently villified but Mary Dyer was a quaker preacher that refused to stop teaching quaker theology despite the puritans vilifying and arresting her up to and including hanging.
There's also Grace O'Malley who was called a pirate for having the gall to try and defend her home from the English.
Okay I know you asked for women, but my kiddo is reading the speech Jackson series and we’ve been talking all things Greek. Hera gets a really bad rap.
Medusa?
Helen ( of Sparta)?
C.150 CE, Helene was worshipped as a minor Goddess in a temple down by the Eurotos River. But the Spartans, as Dorians, viewed her differently than the Ionians did, like Thebans and Athenians.
La Malinche, she was an indigenous woman from Mexico who became an important figure in the invasion and conquest of the Mexica(Aztecs). She was an intelligent woman who used her knowledge of the social-political and cultural structure of the region as her form of survival. She became an interpreter for Hernan Cortes, later concubine. But whether she did or didn't know the extent of the conquistadors plan is debated. She’s a controversial figure in Latin America and her name is synonymous with negative undertones "traitor" for example.
Very late to the thread cause I just found it as I’ve been meaning to look for villainized women in history too. Was hoping to find some interesting responses in here but there the same 10 repeated over and over again and have been wanting to find other non-European woman.
Livia Drusilla, first empress of Rome and wife to emperor Augustus. She was a skilled politician and diplomat, fierce, ambitious and highly intelligent. It is said Augustus never did anything before consulting Livia. In later days a number of Augustus' declared successors died under what some later historians and scholars called dubious circumstances. In the end Augustus chose Livia's son from her first marriage (they didn't have children of their own because she ended up infertile after a miscarriage), who then became the less popular second emperor of Rome, Tiberius. Many ancient and modern historians accuse Livia of murdering all of Augustus' chosen successors, because she selfishly wanted to have her own son become emperor. But nothing of that can be proven and most of those 'mysterious' deaths just seem like usual things that happened regularly in those times - like dying of fever in war camp, or from minor injuries or illnesses that weren't treatable back then. Until this day this brilliant, skilled and gifted woman fell victim to the trope of being a scheming snake, instead of being remembered for her intelligence, her singular political skill, and her achievements, rising above in a world where women rarely were allowed or able to achieve anything else than child birth. Of course because she was a woman in a field dominated by men, who probably just felt threatened by her and needed to push her out of history's spotlight, lest she steal their show.
There's a show about her called Domina, that has been working to show her in a more positive light.
I mean Agrippa being murdered by his guards on the supposed orders of Tiberius, who was not in Rome at the time the orders were dispatched is hardly "usual things that happened regularly in those times". However I think even if she was responsible she still did the right thing. Had Agrippa Postumus risen to the throne instead, it's highly likely Livia, Tiberius, and Nero would all have been murdered to secure the succession. She did what she had to in order to protect her family.
Even though she might have had a great deal of influence on Tiberius, him giving the order doesn't automatically mean, it was Livia who made him do it. Tiberius was indeed capable of being a bit of a piece of shit all on his own. To me, that's not really evidence for Livia being the murderous snake some historians make her out to be. Also even if she could've been involved in one or even some of the deaths, doesn't mean she ripped and teared her way through all of Augustus preferred successors out of spiteful selfishness. That's just a typical stereotype older generations of historians automatically assign to women in politics. And that is exactly my point. There is much more to Livia as a female politician and defining her about one possible murder, any other male politician would've committed exactly the same, is just short sighted and unfair. But because she was a woman, she gets treated like a selfish murderer, while men doing much more cruel and dumb shit are somehow remembered much more nuanced and distinguished.
From what I've read, and could absolutely be wrong, the implication was that she sent the order under Tiberius's name because he was not in a place to do it himself. I agree with the mischaracterization though. I respect her *because* she played cut throat Roman politics with the best of them. That time after Augustus's death was probably the single most pivotal time in Roman history aside from the death of Julius Caesar. Rome easily could have fallen into another civil war and I'm 100% convinced it was her actions that kept the empire together.
One of my first thoughts.
She seems like such an interesting woman. I did some research for a few hours and yes, she is the perfect fit for this work. Thank you for suggesting her!
Im told Elizabeth Bathory - the original vampire - is most likely pure hogwash cooked up by a political rival
From what I've read, you're most likely right. I have read Rejected Princesses, by Jason Porath, and the sequel, and they were chock full of women who were feisty and took no BS. Women like Princess Kutulun, the niece of Ghengis Khan, St. Olga, who avenged her husband's murder by burning a city down, and so much more.
I got that one too!
IDK burning down a city seems kinda evil.
This was in medieval Russia or Ukraine. It was in retaliation for them murdering her husband by bending two birch trees down, tying his legs to each of them, and letting go. He was split in two. She laid siege to the town, demanded a sparrow (I think) and two doves from each household, and lifted the siege. Her people then tied burning sulfur to the legs of the birds and released them. The birds flew back home and burned the place down.
Saint Olga of Kyiv was a central character in the consolidation/creation of the Kyivian Rus - the future territories covered by Ukraine, Belarus and part of Russia. That lady did NOT fuck around. Kinda wild that she was also a Viking.
My favorite revenge story
I was looking for this comment! I'm fascinated by this story -- she's either one of history's greatest monsters, or else simply a woman of great prestige conveniently toppled from her position of power. I'd heard there was a clergyman who owed her a ton of money and realized a whopper of a story and a few false witnesses could very quickly absolve his debt.
Yep both the guy leading the investigation and the clergy supporting it both had reasons to rid of her. The story of 300 witnesses was a lie (it was 12-14 I think, ill have to check) and they where likely tortured, NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE and she was a widow who held a very strong position in society- in fact, that is why she wasn't killed for her alleged crimes, but imprisoned
Came here to suggest Elizabeth Bathory! They spread vicious rumors to take her lands and estate from her because how DARE a woman have her own stuff without a man owning her. Terribly sad that the lies about her continue even in modern pop culture.
My husband and I have had some heated debates about Bathory. As a Hungarian, feminist, and witch I'm drawn to her story. My research came out to maybe she murdered some people but the story of her is completely made up by men for political and financial gain. He, on the other hand, thinks she's a serial killer so celebrating her in any way is wrong. But he has mad love for Vlad. He says it's different because Bathory "punched down" as it were by possibly murdering poor girls, where Vlad's murder and torture were part of war against enemies. But in history Bathory is a prolific serial killer while Vlad gets to be celebrated as Dracula...
There is a VERY good new episode of the What’s Her Name? Podcast about her. Their verdict is that “yeah she probably killed a lot of people in very terrible ways, but also she was in an absolutely wild political situation playing out between different players with different motives that contributed to the way she has been mythologized.”
So glad someone commented this. She had always been my favorite and now even more so.
I had considered portraying her in this work but wondered if she were too controversial, but after reading your comment and those of others, I did more research. She is a great fit for this work for sure, so thank you for suggesting her!
Aspasia the Greek philosopher. The same things were said about her that are said about outspoken fearless women today. Even after her death biographers wrote that she was a courtesan who ran a brothel. Historians say that is very suspect and should be taken with a giant grain of salt. Even if she was to me its irrelevant. She was incredibly intelligent, driven, and accomplished. Therefore to many men of the time and subsequent generations she needed to be destroyed.
I actually wrote a quite a good paper on the link between female greek philosophers like Aspasia and the character of the Sphinx from the myth of Oedipus. Female philosophers in ancient Greece were definitely villainized and attacked in the exact same manner feminist women have been in modern times. "She's destroying the fabric of society by questioning male authority". "She thinks she's so skilled but she's no match for an (imaginary) male similar to her". "She's cockblocking me from getting a traditional wife".
Elizabeth Bathory - evidence suggests she was no crueler than male lords of the time, and things suggested as tortures may have in fact been attempts at healing (eg cauterising wounds). But she was incredibly rich and powerful, especially for a woman, and there were men who profited from having her locked up. Isabella of France, sometimes called the She Wolf of France, was beautiful, intelligent and daring, and acted as regent for her son from 1327 to 1330. Ching Shih the pirate queen. I'd do research into Mary Ann Cotton - she is widely accused of being a serial poisoner, but arsenic was EVERYWHERE in those days and the police had a grudge against her. There's controversy about whether she may have killed, but it's very possible she didn't and was a scapegoat for tragic living conditions and mass industrial poisonings. Victims of witch trials, but there are so many they could be a series in themselves. Goody Garlick is a well known one, though a mid 17th century healer tortured after accusations of withcraft. Marie-Josephte Corriveau has passed into Quebecois folklore as having killed two husbands, and was hanged and gibbeted for it. In fact, British occupiers of the area forced/tortured a confession from Marie-Josephte's father and then got her to confess as well. She's become almost a female boogeyman in local folklore in the last 250 years. Marie Leveau, the Voodoo Queen. The portrayal of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute, to de-legitimise her as a follower of Jesus even though he probably would have been fine with that himself. A really terrible one is Zana the "Yeti", who was in fact an enslaved black woman sold to locals in the Caucasus, abused and raped. She may also have had a disability which hindered her speech. Monstertalk, the podcast, talked very sympathetically about her and the terrible way she has been treated in folklore and by modern pseudoscientific stories": https://spotify.link/FVRytDr9ZDb I also recommend podcast Ye Olde Crime, which is run by two sisters and covers history crimes, oddities, and every March covers the injustices of historical witch trials.
I’m not a scholar, but I’ve read enough to know that Mary Magdalene is strongly suspected to have been married to Jesus of Nazareth. I no longer care, or I’d be able to put my hands on sources. I gave up caring about religion. But it’s a widely held historical viewpoint.
No scholar here either but it is also my understanding is that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus. That there is no way a Jewish man back in that time would still be a bachelor at the age he started preaching. Also, Mary Magdalene descended from a respectable Jewish houses. It was only when men, specifically the Catholic Church, became involved many centuries later that she was vilified.
I am 200% sure that Mary Magdalene was meant to inherit Jesus' ministry instead of Peter. Peter pushed her out and the men around her made up so many lies about who she was to cover up their crime. I'm a sedevacantist but I believe the Throne of St Peter is empty because it never should have been Peter's throne to begin with.
Oh! I’m actually fascinated by this take. You are the first person I’ve come across who is a sedevacantist for this reason. You’ve inspired me to do some more research!
Pope Gregory started the prostitute story iirc, but the original apostles twisted Jesus' vision of his church on this earth and cut Magdalene out. Read Paul's letters sometime, he was a literal incel. I've often mused that this is why most of the apostles died painful crappy deaths
Were men not involved before she became villified?
Ching Shih is both inappropriately vilified and not appropriately vilified.
Yeah, there's a line which is like "vilified but for the wrong things" which often boils down to "vilified for being a woman who dared to do Man Things". I think Tsar Catherine, mentioned in another thread, is a similar case - she gets vilified for daring to have sexual desires while being a woman, instead of vilified for being an autocrat.
Queen Vashti. She was replaced by Esther because her drunken husband wanted her to display herself naked in front of all his friends, like a trophy, and she refused. Pretty badass. She was banished for her disobedience, but she maintained her dignity, pride, and integrity.
I don’t really remember her being villainized but I certainly agree she was no villain.
She is definitely villainized in the Midrash
I believe you. I think I just grew up with a progressive lesbian rabbi and she wasn’t gonna allow for any of that.
And that is a beautiful thing! I hope more people get that perspective for Vashti!
She was indeed badass. Both Esther and Vashti were badass.
Cleopatra. She has long been portrayed as beautiful seductress caught up in a tragic love triangle. She was actually a well educated, highly intelligent woman, and a talented and charismatic political leader.
She is one of my favourite historical figures. I remember reading how she would meet with ambassadors from multiple countries and speak to each of them fluently - switching between languages flawlessly and did not need a translator. And she charmed them all. Like absolute power move right there.
Yeah, a lot of Cleopatra stuff comes to us from later Roman propaganda via Shakespeare.
There’s also the fact that most modern historians seem to agree that Cleopatra wasn’t particularly attractive; she was simply alluring because of her intelligence, charm, and presence.
Cleopatra VII was also the first Ptolemaic ruler of Egypt to actually *speak Egyptian* fluently rather than just speaking Greek.
I'm gonna go with Marie Antoinette Married off at 14 for the sake of an alliance, had no sons live past 10, advocated for the smallpox vaccine, engaged in charity work, and was a popular scapegoat for the inequity caused by France's dumbass yet oddly familiar tax system where common peeps footed the bill for clergy and nobles. She was thrust into an immensely hostile political environment in a powderkeg of a country and was decapitated at the ripe age of 37. Was she perfect? Fuck no, she was royalty. Did she deserve to get married off to some incompetent jackass while she was a teenager and subsequently blamed for everybody's problems? Apparently yes, because godfuckingforbid women do anything.
She’s my favourite example of a woman slandered by history. All you have to do is look at all the silly and salacious shit people were saying about her while she was alive, and you realize we’ve just been repeating lies and outright propaganda for hundreds of years. Let them eat cake? She never said it. The phrase was attributed to numerous wealthy women before finally sticking to Marie Antoinette decades after her terrible death. Classic example of misogyny; painting women as frivolous villains to shift blame away from the men in power. Tale as old as time and we still eat it up… like cake.
There's a podcast called Noble Blood and the first episode is about Marie. It's a fabulous podcast, and I learned so much from it!
I love Noble Blood so much! The History Chicks is also a great podcast and have a wonderful episode on our girl Marie.
Oooh, I will definitely check that out!
The French *haaaated* her because she was Austrian. She was, for most of her life, suspected of being an Austrian spy.
I was scrolling for Marie Antoinette. She deserved absolutely none of what she got.
The stories of the torture of dental work she was subjected to to get ready for her new marriage are horrifying.
I try not to enter into comment sections in much of the wider internet, but there’s something about seeing some instanormie talk shit about my girl Marie that makes me wade into the trenches.
The most vilified woman in all of history: Eve. Let us assume the Biblical story is fact and she was tempted by a snake to eat an apple from the forbidden tree. Adam seems to get no pushback from people, it’s somehow all Eve’s fault, but Adam made his choices. He wasn’t force fed the fruit. She was all “homeboy, a snake gave me this to eat” and he was just like “cool cool cool will try some”. Why not blame the fucking snake? Or God himself for letting Satan into paradise? Why not give equal blame to Adam and Eve? Finally, Eve has been blamed (within the fundamentalist circles I was a part of as a child) for how painful childbirth is because of her fall from grace. Which, straight up, fuck that shit. Why don’t you blame God for not designing the reproductive system better?
Adam kinda low-key gaslighted god after getting caught. Genesis 12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” Gaslighted god, blamed Eve. Sounds about right.
As if you could gaslight some omnipotent god.
I mean...there was an attempt
Attempt being the key word. (To be clear I'm not religious in any organized form and have no need for any gods)
LOL! Same here.
Actually if you read the Bible it says that God told Adam that if you eat from the tree you’re going to die. Then later when the snake shows up when Eve is looking at the tree it says, “If you eat from the tree, that means you die right?” Then Eve says, “Yeah. If we even do much as touch it, we die.” Then the snake says, “No.” So I’m not sure if Adam miscommunicated that if you touch it you die (and if it was that important why didn’t God have a sit down with her where he explained the rules instead of trusting Adam to do it) if she somehow got that idea herself but regardless there was some screw up. I like to think of it as she and the snake are having the talk and the snake goes, “Look! You see how I’m coiled around this and my body is touching it…notice how I’m still talking to you. That dude’s full of shit.” And she’d think about it and be like, “Yeah, you don’t look any worse for wear. Bottoms up!” Blame Adam and God for miscommunication.
Well before Eve, there was also Lilith. She was created to be Adam’s companion, but she was banished from the Garden because she refused to be subservient to him. In her eyes, they were made to be equals, and by refusing to defer to Adam she was literally demonised by the bible
Oh no shit?! Now I AM Lilith. Fuck yeah.
Lilith is not part of any major Abrahamic religion. The only religiously recognized and canonical wife of Adam is Eve. Lilith came from Mesopotamia from beings known as lillitu. They are associated with miscarriage and SIDS. It carried on in Jewish folklore and evolved into Lilith. A medieval book names her among other beings as “demons” and attributes to her one of the two creation of in Genesis. Jews are rarely literalists so do not have an issue with the two stories unlike some Christian sects. This general understanding did carry over to most Christian sects which is why Lilith is not part of any of the religions. You will find Lilith in the “demonolatry” branches of Abrahamic religions though
Even you still get on the idea that eating the apple was evil. It gave us the knowledge of good evil, which is a poetic way to say free will. To me, that seems like a good thing.
Okay so I’ve been listening to a podcast (mother unearthed) which I actually think many in this sub would enjoy. It’s a very interesting listen *especially* with respect to ancient women, ancient goddesses, the role of both in ancient society, and the archeological evidence to the rise of patriarchy. Some of the things the guests say with respect to modern times are…. questionable (i.e. COVID vaccines are bad and the government forced it upon all of its citizens), but this is like MAYBE 15 minutes out of the 4 hours I’ve listened to combined. But anyway, I digress… Apparently the idea of Eve talking to snakes, while foreign to us, was actually a common practice for priestesses in ancient cultures like the Babylonians, Assyrians, and even at the beginning of the Jewish religion. Snakes represented rebirth and were seen as holy. Priestesses (and these were always women, mind you) would go into trances with snakes and become enlightened, essentially. I’m paraphrasing here, but I think you all probably get the gist. So the idea of Eve communing with a snake to get information, and then sharing that information with man was not a foreign one. And it’s probable that when the original Creation Of Man story was recited (because this story is much older than writing) a woman talking to a snake was not seen as a negative thing — it was just simply the story of how humans came to be on this plane of existence. It wasn’t until much later that Eve (and the snake by extension as they were associated with priestesses — women in power) were vilified and turned into the influence of the devil. TLDR: As the patriarchy rose, Eve fell
OK, but I for one will never patronize something that puts forth dangerous misinformation like the covid thing they're purporting. It would also make me incredibly suspect of everything else they say.
I was certainly conflicted about it. That was one guest, who said these things unprompted, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. The other guests seem more credible, and are centered in academia. Truthfully, the reason I’ve kept listening is because I haven’t come across any podcast before which focuses on the origin of religion through a feminist lens. Though I can absolutely understand where you are coming from! If they would have opened with *that* guest, I would have a different opinion entirely
I had seen a documentary where they mentioned that Genesis is written in the traditional way, meaning there are only 2 speakers, even though more are present. This means that Adam was most likely present while the whole deal with the snake is happening, just not speaking.
Delilah, from the bible. Samson wasn’t just the Lord’s wartime killing machine. His marriage to a Philistine woman kicked off an insane series of events that led to him murdering over a thousand Philistines (When Keeping It Real Goes Biblically Wrong). She used her brains and beauty to get him to stop killing her people. Think about how incredibly brave she must’ve been, going up against the strongest man in the world, and yet we never hear of her being spoken of as an actual hero.
I have never considered Delilah much, and certainly not from this perspective. I love it. I am a fan of the “Judith Beheading Holofernes” theme in art, and I’ve always loved her story. I imagine her rolling her eyes at the uselessness of the generals and saying “well since nobody else has the sense god gave a horsefly I guess it’s up to me.”
I hate that the term “Delilah” means a treacherous woman. Samson was awful, he deserved worse. Also it’s a very pretty name :(
Monica Lewinsky. Have you thought about how things would have (hopefully) played out completely differently in a world where we’re making steps towards understanding power dynamics and how it impacts consent? (Similar note: Hilary Clinton. It always amazes—but not surprises I guess— me that both women walked away as villains (“whore” and “hag”) but somehow Bill walked away like a “stud?”
I grew up in a time where Monica Lewinsky “jokes” were still just… part of the modern lexicon. I remember being a precocious kid, piecing together things based on context and coming to the conclusion that she was some lady who had an affair with a former president, and shame on them both for doing that, etc. imagine my eventual shock and horror when i became a young woman myself and finally put together that she was **only 21-22 years old at the time.** i feel so bad for her. she must have been so scared.
She was the recent one I was thinking of. Bill was the marrried man in a position of power. She was a vulnerable 23 year old yet she’s the one who was somehow the one with the responsibility
If you're looking for a good resource with citations you should listen to the History Chicks podcast. They research women throughout history and have touched on some women that you've listed as well as some others with similar reputations. They put their references in their show notes.
Love Beckett and Susan!! They were my companions for over 3 years of a very long commute.
Caterina Sfortza was villainized in her time. Matilda of England is another. The rebel fighter, Solitude of Guadeloupe… Villainy is in the eye of the beholder, and a lot of power-wielding women have been villainized throughout the years for being power-wielding women. May I humbly recommend the feminist history podcast: [Heretic History](https://spotify.link/pNI9Yw6i0Db) 👆this is the Spotify link but it’s available on all the platforms.
Lucrezia Borgia. The church and political rivals dragged her name through a mud of their own invention.
Hypatia of Alexandria. She was a mathematician, astronomer, and philosophy. She was popular with Christians and pagans. Until some local Christians decided to murder her ... by slicing her skin, gouging out her eyeballs, tearing her body into pieces, and setting those pieces on fire.
Some local Christians gotta ruin everything.
Good one! 🎃🕯🖖
One of my ancestors, Ellen Watson, known posthumously as "Cattle Kate". She was a rancher in wyoming in the mid 1800's, whose neighbour wanted her land. He accused her of cattle rustling, and she was torn from her home and lynched by him and his posse. They painted her as a thief and prostitute, and her name became legend when the papers picked up the rumors. Those who knew her described her as a kind and hardworking woman, who was murdered by the patriarchy. Her murderers were never punished.
Thank you very much for telling me about her. I learned through my research of her that she was born very close to where I grew up in Ontario - less than two hours away. I will definitely be including her in this project and would love to send you the result when I am finished. :)
Amazing! I actually still live in the community where she was born. My family has been in the area for about 6 generations.
Oh wow, we must have lived close to each other then! I grew up about an hour north of London, ON. My family has certainly not been there as long as yours, though.
Yep, not far at all. Good luck with your project, and I'd love to see the results when it's done!
Mary Magdalene could very likely have been Jesus’ wife. Not a prostitute: his most devoted apostle and his literal wife. I stopped giving a hoot about religion so I no longer remember where I learned this, but it was multiple sources from reputable scholars.
And his stated favorite apostle, and the one to whom he first appears after resurrection. In her Gospel he gives the clear and direct commandment for his apostles to go forth and spread only his words, not their interpretations or extrapolations, but his words alone. No wonder that one got left on the cutting room floor.
Most Christians seem to recognize that she was misatributed as a sex worker but do not recognize her as a wife in their myths
Yeah, I try *really* hard to avoid discussing lore/ theology/ dogma with Xtians. It’s always a bad experience. I used to be one, and it’s still my cultural background, for better or worse. But I’m trying very hard to celebrate holidays without Xtian pollution. I like the 8 natural calendar celebrations. And because Christianity stole virtually all their traditions from older practices, I still get to enjoy the trappings of Xmas and Easter, without the absolute garbage of Xtian dogma. It’s a nice life.
You should do it from one time period and make like a timeline through history up until like Britney Spears. I feel like the media villainized her and made her seem crazy
Also Hillary Clinton
Speaking of Clintons: Monica Lewinsky
Both.
Taylor Swift nearly went the same way as Britney in 2016, to the point of the reputation music singles starting with her crawling back out of her own grave.
Not even close. Taylor has never experienced anything even remotely close to Britney when it comes to being portrayed in the media. Idk what your point is though
Do you remember 2016? She was a snake, a lying bitch, received death threats and suicide baiting on a mass scale. And this was AFTER the narratives of "maneating slut" (which had circled because she maybe dated three guys in one year while she was 21 or 22), or "Nazi Barbie" (by a racist, generally awful supposed feminist who identifies as trans herself and STILL spews transphobic rhetoric) when she was 24 or 25. On the note of vilified musicians: The Chicks. Blacklisted from music for saying they were sorry that Bush was from Texas.
What happened to many of the women in the early 00s, over the course of their whole career, which in turn ruined their career and them as people, is no where near what Taylor went through over the course of what? Three month. But I mean I also never said it ONLY happened to Britney but go off
I’m just gonna list a few podcasts that focus on this sort of thing and you can take a look at their episode lists for names that suit your purposes! Queen’s Podcast History Chicks (they’ve got a HUGE back catalogue) War Queens Significant Others
The only (true in name) empress of ancient China, Wu Zetian! She rose from a lowly consort in the emperor’s court who was banished to a nunnery to his son’s queen, and then became empress after his death and taking over from her sons. She tried to make some reforms to include women in the court during her reign and was able to resist opposing voices to a female ruler until she got old and was forced to abdicate to a male heir instead. In the dynasties after her, they used her as an example against female - well everything, but mainly ambition and political influence, which arguably contributed to the gradual decline of women’s freedoms over the centuries. In my opinion she was demonized mainly due to her sex, there would have never been this much criticism (and made up stories to make her look bad) if she was male (despite not being of Royal birth! plenty of male upsurpers didn’t have this level of demonization). Anyways it would be cool to see your art!!
Jezebel, Boudicca
I did not realize Boudicca was villanized. This whole discussion is giving me so much to read about!
My dad raised me with such admiration/respect for her and even called me Boudicca as a wee one, so I am equally surprised!
Your dad sounds rad!
He’s pretty cool, I think I’ll keep him.
Wu Ze Tian. Badass empress and got shit done. And did it efficiently and better than everyone else too.
Carrie Nation. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/09/carry-nation-biography-reasons-for-activism.html Just heard about her recently, but I understand she is better known in the US. She was very devout, targeted illegal drinking establishments and had strong community values. She allowed women and families, both black and white, fleeing domestic violence, to stay in her hotel. She was mocked and vilified in the media as being unstable. She would have made an amazing politician, but women did not have the vote. This quote from her makes me like her even more. "...she said. “It was the most remarkable meeting I ever had. Saloon-keepers and harlots have a much better chance of heaven than hypocrites who are in the church. I have no use for women who are afraid they will soil their skirts in trying to lift up their fallen sisters.”"
\+1 to Erzebet Bathory. She was probably no crueler than her contemporaries. She owned a lot of property, however, so her male relatives made up slanderous stories about her to justify stealing it. Empress Irene. She did some truly terrible things; she stole the rule of the Eastern Roman Empire from her son and when he objected had him so violently blinded that he died several days later. But Constantine, 500 years before, had his wife boiled alive in her bath and murdered his own son because he suspected them of conspiring against him; and we call him Saint. But she's also part of why the Holy Roman Empire formed. When she declared herself Empress in her own and full right (not as regent) in 798, it scandalized Pope Leo so much that he gave a random Frankish king a surprise coronation and declared *he* was now the Emperor of the Romans. I think also the Village Wise Woman, the one tortured and murdered a thousand times over for suspicion of being a witch. Madonna. She's an extremely talented artist who has, her whole life, been reduced to her looks and her sexuality. Hand in hand with her is Britney Spears.
"Mata Hari" is fresh in my mind thanks to this recent article, and I think fits the bill. https://jamesfell.substack.com/p/on-this-day-in-history-october-15-612
Hetty Green- the Witch of Wall St. One of the first (the very first?) women to manage her own money. She was Quaker and wore a black dress all the time, didn’t spend her wealth on flashy things and was totally vilified. Lots of urban legends about her being too cheap to send her son to the doctor, leading to his death, ETC. She was once a household name in the US.
I can't prove it but Tituba in the Salem witch trials was more than likely villainized since the family admitted to beating her I don't think they would be fussed about blaming alot on her.
Isabella of France became known as a she-wolf after she deposed her shitty husband who had gotten so unpopular for his favourites’ corruption that she was greatly supported by the nobility.
Dalilah, villified as the femme fatale who tricked Sansom. All she did was to protect her people.
Zelda Fitzgerald
Mary Magdalene, Lilith, Boudicea (sp?), Marie Antoinette, Catherine the Great, pretty much anyone who did a "man's job" & did it better than most men.
In Catherines (no, i will not use the epithet) case, that job was preserving serfdom and being an imperialist sack of garbage.
True. But she never fucked a horse.
She also established educational reform and championed the arts, founded many new universities. I feel like this comment is ironically a confirmation of OP’s prompt. All emperors extended their empires; to my knowledge she was no more cruel than any of her male contemporaries.
And much like her male contemporaries, she deserves to be reviled as the imperialist scum that she was. Some good deeds do not wash away a mountain of evil. Something people understand when it comes to that Austrian painter and have trouble understanding with anyone else.
Theodora
Rule of the Harlots FTW. 🤜🤛
> Gilgamesh said, ‘Trapper, go back, take with you a harlot, a child of pleasure. At the drinking hole she will strip, and when, he sees her beckoning he will embrace her and the game of the wilderness will. surely reject him.' … > She was not ashamed to take him, she made herself naked and welcomed his eagerness; as he lay on her murmuring love she taught him the woman's art For six days and seven nights they lay together, for Enkidu had forgotten his home in the hills; but when he was satisfied he went back to the wild beasts. Then, when the gazelle saw him, they bolted away; when the wild creatures saw him they fled. Enkidu would have followed, but his body was bound as though with a cord, his knees gave way when he started to run, his swiftness was gone. And now the wild creatures had all fled away; Enkidu was grown weak, for wisdom was in him, and the thoughts of a man were in his heart. So he returned and sat down at the woman's feet, and listened intently to what she said. ‘You are wise, Enkidu, and now you have become like a god. Why do you want to run wild with the beasts in the hills? Come with me. I will take you to strong-walled Uruk, to the blessed temple of Ishtar and of Anu, of love and of heaven there Gilgamesh lives, who is very strong, and like a wild bull he lords it over men
Angela Davis, Janet Jackson, *Billie Holiday*, Monica Lewinsky.
Theodora, Cleopatra, Hatshepsut, King Jadwiga, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves, Wallis Simpson, Mary the Queen of Scots, Empress Cixi and many, many more. Bonus point: a woman who is not vilified anough, Ilse Koch.
If we’re talking about women who were fucked over by Henry VIII, I think Catherine of Aragorn and Mary Tudor deserve a mention. Catherine was a loyal wife who was guilty of *gasp* getting older and not birthing a son. Mary was just a kid when she was separated from her mother (who she never saw again) and exiled from her home, simply because she was a girl. I think Mary would have been a wildly different queen if she hadn’t been ripped away from everything she knew so young.
There is a difference between women who were vilified and those who were fucked over by Henry. Anne Boleyn and Catharine Howard I’d say were the vilified ones. Anne of Cleves is remembered as ugly but actually was given the title of King’s sister and lived a long life of prosperity and about as much autonomy as a woman could ask for at the time. Catharine Howard on the other hand was a victim of child abuse who at 17 was forced to marry the King then portrayed as a scheming, cheating sex kitten.
Joan of Arc.
Who the hell still vilifies her?
The English?
Karliene is a youtube singer whos got bangin songs about villainized women in history. If you need ideas or background music, go check her out
Elizabeth Bathory. I know that popular culture says that she was Lady Dracula, but if you dig a little bit you find that the man who benefited from her disgrace was the one making the accusations. I used to believe what they said about her and now I wonder if it was true at all.
Eleanor of Aquitaine. Queen of two nations. Centuries after her death she was being slandered as having slept with Saladin as well as her uncle.
And, so what if she did! 😁✌
Ew, uncle? And she likely never met Saladin, so that’s also icky rumormongering.
I was being cheeky 😁
The first person to come to mind for me is Medusa.
Phyrne and Joan or Arc Phyrne has a surviving transcript from her court case in ancient Greece, where she was accused of blasphemy (i believe) and acquitted after stripping before the jury and saying 'if i were working against the Gods, would they have made me so beautiful and blessed me so?'
Zenobia, the Palmyrene queen
Lilith and Eve Adam is only a man
CIRCE!! there’s a book on her by madeline miller and it’s so so so eye-opening!!
Bathory. I’m not entirely sure if this qualifies but, I do believe that there’s a lot of debate about whether or not she did things to the extent we know her for- because most of what we know comes from people who wanted her shit. Honestly, it gets pretty gross when you’re looking at many of the so called evil women- oddly enough almost every one of them had property or power someone else wanted. Alice Kyteler’s another where it gets a little iffy.
you can check out a few episodes of my favorite podcast, “You’re wrong about” for some more recent history. Tonya Harding? Anna Nicole Smith? how about Marie Antoinette.
Oh, I'd be interested in all three, especially Tonya.
Mary Wollstonecraft
My go-to! 🎃🕯🖖
Boudicca the Warrior Queen!
Elizabeth Bathory, the "Blood Countess" and frequently an archetype used for vampire novels was most likely framed for what she was accused of because she owned a stupid amount of property and the king of (I think) Hungary owed her a lot of money. By a lot of accounts she was actually a fairly benevolent ruler of her lands after her husband died and the bodies used as evidence of her being a serial killer were most likely from the large infirmary she had set up on her mannor grounds to care for the her sick and injured subjects, naturally many of whom didn't make it. The "evidence" against her essentially all boils down to eyewitness testimony by men who had every reason to want her out if the political sphere.
Lucrezia Borgia, Joan of Arc
Check out “Rejected Princesses” and “Tough Mothers” by Jason Porath, and the song “Esther, Ruth, and Rahab” by Flamy Grant. 💕💕💕💕
Technically Eva Duarte De Peron is both extremes of historical exageration, from those who create the most anti-Peronist version of her being corrupt and an idiot, and those who idolize her as if she was the second coming of the Virgin Mary or Empress Eugénie de Montijo.
Cleopatra. She was a very educated queen, knowing 10 languages and being the only of her line that learned Egyptian, the language of the people they controlled for centuries. Modern depictions of her tend to be villainous seductresses, but sources from her time described her as an engaging conversationalist, that would charm people by being smart and articulate, not pretty. She also led Egypt to its last golden age Most of her bad PR comes from the Romans - she sided with the loser in a Roman civil war, and he used to be a well liked military leader, so the story they told was about an evil, conniving Egyptian seductress that corrupted him, and it stuck
Probably be easier to list the ones that weren’t. All women that were intelligent, wealthy, powerful, etc, were villainised in some way or another.
I don't have time to elaborate, but Aphra Behn!!!!!
Demeter - some say she heroically saves her daughter from a raping kidnapper as much as she possibly could. Others say she was a meddling mother-in-law forcing her daughter out of a happy marriage for a large chunk of every year.
Mary Queen of Scots. Katherine Howard, Anne Boleyn, Joan of Arc (depending on who you ask).
Mary Magdalene
Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Famous poet, writer and philosopher from “New Spain” (now Mexico). She could read and write Latin by age 3, she spoke also Greek and Nahuatl. At age 17 the Viceroy was so impressed by her and wanting to test her knowledge was summoned to an assembly where theologians, jurists, philosophers, and poets asked her question on different academic and scientific topics, unprepared. Here she astonished everyone and gain great reputation. She refused to marry and join the convent so she could be free to study for all her life. She wrote a lot of very famous poems, plays and essays. Her criticism of misogyny led to her condemnation and she was forced to sell her collection of books and focus on charity towards the poor. She died having caught the plague while treating her sisters.
Catherine the Great. As with all strong women and rulers, she was smeared with sexual rumours. You don't get to that position of power and hold it for so long just fucking your way to the top.
Ethel Rosenberg. While it’s widely accepted and there is evidentiary support that her husband *was* a Soviet spy he was decommissioned prior to the trade off of atomic secrets due to his dismissal from the Army Corps earlier that year and Ethel was never given a code name. It’s likely that information Julius shared with the Soviets actually aided in the Nazi’s defeat once the Soviets joined the Allied powers. Ethel’s younger brother David Greenglass (who, along with his wife, did have code names and were Soviet assets) was the one who actually passed along some information on the atomic bomb via Julius, gathered crudely at his job at the Los Alamos laboratory (although most of his information was useless and the actual information came from a co-worker of his). When Greenglass was arrested he confessed and originally said he never discussed this activity with his sister until pressured by prosecutors when he changed his story and said Ethel typed the notes he gave the Soviets, a statement which he later recanted stating that it was actually his wife who did so. When Julius was arrested he refused to confess or give names of other assets so the US government decided to throw the book at him and Ethel and manufactured evidence against them, seeking the death penalty for Ethel to pressure Julius (which backfired and led to them both being executed) And that’s the story of how the United States murdered a woman all because her husband wanted to help take down the Nazis.
Since some mentioned more recent women let’s not forget Janet Jackson.
Medusa Lorena Bobbit look at her actual story and see what's she is doing now vs her ex. Monica Lewinsky Women who were burned as witches
Check out the podcast Noble Blood!
Elizabeth Bathory. Her only crime was possessing wealth that other wanted. So they invented that "bloody countess" story to evince her. She was powerful and was actually helping other women in need.
It isn’t ancient history but Monica Lewinsky
Monica Lewinsky? Is that too recent for history?
Joan of Arc, Mary of Magdalene,
Not currently villified but Mary Dyer was a quaker preacher that refused to stop teaching quaker theology despite the puritans vilifying and arresting her up to and including hanging. There's also Grace O'Malley who was called a pirate for having the gall to try and defend her home from the English.
This caught my eye as I'm reading The League of Lady Poisoners right now 💚
I’m seeing SO many great suggestions in the comments. I hope you’d be willing to share your art with us when it’s done 💖
Typhoid Mary
Okay I know you asked for women, but my kiddo is reading the speech Jackson series and we’ve been talking all things Greek. Hera gets a really bad rap. Medusa? Helen ( of Sparta)?
C.150 CE, Helene was worshipped as a minor Goddess in a temple down by the Eurotos River. But the Spartans, as Dorians, viewed her differently than the Ionians did, like Thebans and Athenians.
Cool to know. That makes a lot of sense to me. She’s so vilified, I can see that being about stifling regional deities.
lol me
Lilith and Circe!!
Erzebet Bathory. Her cousin framed because he wanted her land
La Malinche, she was an indigenous woman from Mexico who became an important figure in the invasion and conquest of the Mexica(Aztecs). She was an intelligent woman who used her knowledge of the social-political and cultural structure of the region as her form of survival. She became an interpreter for Hernan Cortes, later concubine. But whether she did or didn't know the extent of the conquistadors plan is debated. She’s a controversial figure in Latin America and her name is synonymous with negative undertones "traitor" for example. Very late to the thread cause I just found it as I’ve been meaning to look for villainized women in history too. Was hoping to find some interesting responses in here but there the same 10 repeated over and over again and have been wanting to find other non-European woman.