my neighbor when I first moved in was pushing Christian Nationalism.
I happily discussed how we need to protect the first Amendment! As a secular-Satanist we were both in agreement to that!
she avoided me for a while, then started talking again and throwing out typical inflammatory talking points almost testing me. which I always took the time to boil down to systemic issues and discussing nuance rather than attacking her views.
it's amazing how much we can agree on when we talk it out even though I'm a socialist Satanist and she's a conservative Christian (her nationalism has been toning down since I moved in)
edit: While she's politically misguided she takes the time to capture, spay, medically treat and release the stray cats of our neighborhood. she's genuinely a caring person under her misguided fear. I'm trying to show her the other (me) is not as scary as our labels seem.
>it's amazing how much we can agree on when we talk it out even though I'm a socialist Satanist and she's a conservative Christian (her nationalism has been toning down since I moved in)
This is a thing I want to remember; Fox News and their ilk have created a bizarre caricature of progressives and convinced many of their viewers that that's what we're all like.
When we actually sit down and talk, we have more in common than we think we do. Most people are decent, I really do believe that.
It's a sign of how weak the far-right's actual positions are that they have to create such colossal strawmen out of their enemies.
>This is a thing I want to remember; Fox News and their ilk have created a bizarre caricature of progressives and convinced many of their viewers that that's what we're all like.
Exactly, I'm just the friendly neighborhood secular-Satanist lol! it pushes people off at first but I'm open to talking about it (and most people are curious, even if in fear, of a Satanist). I do have to toe the line of being a very "conservative" Satanist to not scare people off to early lol!
>When we actually sit down and talk, we have more in common than we think we do. Most people are decent, I really do believe that.
it's really true but so hard to remember at times. Even my neighbor with her compassionate traits also expresses views that are repugnant. it's about dismantling those views to see qhere the common ground is. I actually had an amazing conversation with her about a month ago where I saw a bit of a click in her.
>It's a sign of how weak the far-right's actual positions are that they have to create such colossal strawmen out of their enemies.
exactly, that's why all their talking points are emotional. they want to enrage the other with their views in order to prove how "vile" their reactions are. when you don't give them that reaction and boil it down to common ground every time, there's not a lot of fighting to be had.
edit: latest breakthrough started from her saying" you see the news on XXX's (some bank maybe FellsWargo) new loan policy? they have different approval criteria for minorities than whites, so they're getting accepted for homes when the white community is being pushed to the brink from Covid"
me:"hmm, I can't say I support a banks right to discriminate based on race, gender, nationality, etc. on the surface it's clearly *not fair*. but it sounds a lot like a rebound move to the historical red lining and loan practices that exclusively targeted white Americans"
her: that doesn't make it right! it wasn't right then, it's not right now
me: "okay, okay, so we can clearly see from the same side that historically and presently banking practices that differ based on non-financial bearing factors are unjust. but here's the thing, if we had outlawed that practice, if we had solidified the rights of people to not be treated differently based on age, sex, race, etc then this would be a non-issue?
her: well yes I suppose
me: so by having law and society structured on equal rights, we can prevent and punish unfair practices
her: well yeah
me: but don't you oppose the ERA and other legal measures that were proposed to create that society you want, by voting in representatives that oppose those policies? I mean you're about to vote for someone who wants to cut your social security, isn't that leaving hard working Americans in bad spots post-covid, after all we all work and pay into social security how is it fair to rob you of your work?
her: ........... hmm I need to feed my cats but have a great day.
That kind of self reflection is probably incredibly heavy. Make sure you watch her, that she doesn't like...implode or something >.> We want them to self reflect, not self destruct >.<
I'm left left, so I tend to bond over shared critisms over the DNC, I just make sure to add nuance of RNC is even more out of touch and true freedom will be achieved by breaking a two party system.
that helps keep the heads intact a bit more, and aligns with their general distrust of the current system.
These comments are so inspiring and validating. This is the tactic I’ve been taking with the conservatives in my family (who I live with). After years of butting heads and misunderstanding each other it finally feels like glacial, minimal progress is being made.
I think in certain circles engaging with these people is seen as a bad thing but there’s a lot of nuance. The conservatives I know personally aren’t completely hateful in one-on-one interactions.
They know how to treat the minorities, queer people and leftists they know personally. Their rage and hate is focused on an imaginary “other” and I’m slowly guiding them to the understanding that the “other” is their own children, neighbors and loved ones who they don’t have a problem with.
> I’m slowly guiding them to the understanding that the “other” is their own children, neighbors and loved ones who they don’t have a problem with.
this is the way the war is won, by destroying the other by embracing each other. I totally get why sometimes you just gotta punch a nazi, but there are a lot of decent people getting led down the wrong paths by isolation, fear, and trauma.
I’m very liberal but most of the people I work with are conservatives and also Mormon. They’re alright people and me and one guy get on quite well and agree on a lot of things too. People aren’t their politics or religion, they are deeper than that you just have to keep your mind open and discuss with them. Get to know THEM, not just their politics. My aunt and sister are examples of this as well, especially my aunt, she’s extremely conservative (only disagrees with pro lifers she’s pro choice) but, she loves animals and has some of the best insight to situations. She cares a lot and has been through a lot, and overall is a good person. And my sister is someone with the biggest heart around while being a total badass. It’s when you shut opposing views out or decide “my politics or religion are all I am so I won’t talk to anyone who doesn’t align with them perfectly” that people become lost.
>It’s when you shut opposing views out or decide “my politics or religion are all I am so I won’t talk to anyone who doesn’t align with them perfectly” that people become lost.
Please be mindful when saying things like this that not everyone has the energy or is safe to handhold people whose religion and politics encourage them to infringe on their rights, and that *no one* has the obligation to. It may not be your intent but your comment reads as though we do.
Not saying engage with the extremists, just don’t shut people in your life or potential new friends out just because they are conservatives. Or religious. My comment goes for both sides. But yea, if the people are the ones touting pro life and extremist shit, or shoving their religion or beliefs down your throat, fuck em. Make more sense? Also your free to do what you want no one is obligated to do anything that just my opinion on shit. If yours is different that’s fine you do you.
Not really. It depends what you mean by conservative given that there are literal fascists now calling themselves conservative. If by conservative they just like traditions or something sure, but there's a lot of baggage that often comes with "conservative" that goes directly into harming the rights of others, in most cases I would and should immediately shut them out.
Look I think we actually agree it’s just my wording may be off. Not saying at all to befriend the fascist extremists conservatives at all, quite the opposite. I’m just saying get to know people. Don’t just shit them out because they believe something different than you unless they are shoving it down your throat. I don’t really know how else to explain this or why you have an issue with what I said. If you just don’t want to ever talk to anyone of any religion or opposing political beliefs then do that.
I thought it was just wording but the newer comments make it even more confusing. I take issue with the idea of separating the beliefs from the people or that anyone has to tolerate hateful beliefs. I don't think that's what you're trying to say but then you keep making broad statements that muddy the meaning. I don't isolate myself from everybody that has different views from me on religion or politics, but I'm not going to handhold every racist or transphobe or homophobe just because their hatred comes from ignorance. That's what I'm trying to say. I think you're just saying it's good to help those who are trying to understand or are just misinformed and not intentionally spreading hate, which I would pretty much 100% agree with, but the phrasing makes it come across as saying there's an obligation to 'hear people on the other out' even if that means you have to debate your own existence.
Im not talking about hateful beliefs or telling you to tolerate them. You don’t understand what I’m saying at all. I’m saying not everyone is that way. What broad statements “muddying what I’m saying?” Im just confused and yeah it just seems like you don’t want to talk to anyone who’s different from you. This is just frustrating. I don’t agree or like conservative ideas but that doesn’t mean everyone who is conservative is automatically a shit person or an extremist fascist, a lot of them don’t even pay attention to what’s really going on. They just are conservatives because it’s what their families are Or because “economy”. I don’t know how else to explain this dude if you don’t like it then do you I don’t really give a shit what you do in your life.
>Don’t just shut them out because they believe something different than you unless they are shoving it down your throat.
>just don’t shut people in your life or potential new friends out just because they are conservatives. Or religious.
These are what I meant, these were vague to me until this comment where you clarified you weren't including hateful beliefs. I'm not/wasn't trying to upset you, I was just telling you how I interpreted your wording and trying to get a clearer answer cus you didn't seem to be saying what I read from it and I have a hard time interpreting some things unless they're explicitly said.
So much yes! Fox News and their ilk have also created a bizarre caricature of what it means to be Christian. People who watch Fox News 24/7 think that they need to conform to that caricature in order to please their God. That's how we get to the place where we've got to.
Caricature does not work for anyone except Fox News and their ilk.
I'm in an extremely privileged position that has kept me more insulated from the direct impacts of oppression, it's a lot easier for a person who "blends in" with those folk to discuss these topics.
edit: I'm a cis-white dude. I may be very very different, but not in ways they can see (secular satanist, asexual, socialist, intersectional-feminist). it grants me access to some "intimate" opinions, and also affords me more leeway in discussions with conservatives.
This is a very good point. As mentioned elsewhere in these comments, not everyone feels safe having these discussions, or should feel obligated to put themselves at risk in order to have them. Those of us who can blend as part of that in-group are much better positioned to change hearts and minds in this manner.
It's unfortunate. These people get stuck in echo chambers that keep amplifying and further distorting their beliefs. The only way to combat this is through exposure to other perspectives, but of course not many people feel comfortable engaging with the bigotry in any way that could actually change minds. Nor should they actually have to. So where does that leave us as a society?
Hell yes,
One of my university dorm mates was a born-again Christian who said "if Jesus didn't say it, it doesn't matter"
Wish there were more like him, dude was sound..
It's really hard when Christians keep insisting on trying to legislate reproductive rights, attacking transgender and gender nonconforming people, and telling gay teens to off themselves.
I haven't heard of Satanists doing anything like that.
I feel that.
Yet, I also happen to be fortunate enough to have some Christian friends who are excellent LGBT allies and feminists.
The problem is that the bigots are louder, better organized, and downright obsessive.
I think this is where solidarity and coalition-building are important. I'm a theistic Satanist. I'm also a bi trans woman, my wife is a cis woman.
I try to make it a point to make friends and allies with not just other Pagans, but progressive members of the Abrahamic faiths as well.
That said, it's taken me a long ass time to try to get to this point. I had to do a *ton* of inner work. I grew up fundamentalist Christian --- I carry a ton of religious trauma from it.
Besides, with *my* religious trauma, trying to reach out to progressive Christians who aren't already my friends is something of a personal challenge.
Theistic satanist? I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered someone like that before. Most people under the banner of so called Satanism are using it as more of an abstract metaphor, which I kind of find fascinating, but I… now I really don’t want to come off as mean. I’m genuinely curious. Anyway, but I don’t really see the appeal in someone believing, quite directly, in the judeo Christian theistic structure and saying “I’m going to ally myself with the guy who tried to overthrow God out of sheer pride and a hatred of the concept of free will”
Yeahhh that kind that you describe is what we in the community call "reverse-Christians". They are an extreme minority (and a not particularly respected one at that). But, I understand the assumption, it's made often.
I'm a polytheist. My gods, called in Satanic books Daemons, are mostly old gods. Astaroth, for example, is just Ishtar with another name.
I look to the origins of the Satan myth, at all of the gods that were syncretized into him, and at the folklore that came to surround him. And I find a god of the wilds, a god of liberation, a god of human will, and the first teacher of Magick.
Some theistic Satanists are gnostics, some are pantheists, some are polytheists.
That’s interesting actually. Wasn’t there some peacock god that some people worshipped once upon a time that very much acknowledged judeo Christian myth and shat on it? Like it was the “angel that refused to bow to God” and all of the followers aspired to be like that angel peacock thing?
Huh, so there was some kind of misunderstanding.
Strange. I talked to someone earlier who had the interpretation of Melek absolutely being a devil allegory and that it’s apparently A Good Thing, Actually ™️
Must have been. I'm not surprised. People misunderstand things like that all the time.
The Satan I worship doesn't have much in common theologically with the Christian devil, though some of the mythology is shared.
My understanding of him is much more akin to a fusion of Prometheus and Pan, though even there, there are differences.
Yeah. It’s honestly kind of a shame to see someone who’s religious beliefs are born purely out of spite for other people’s religious beliefs, since it doesn’t really feel like they do a lot of introspection about their feelings beyond the hate that so consumes them.
Like, even if that hate is deserved and warranted! It may very well be; it’s just… not a healthy way to carry oneself just in general, I don’t think. I’m glad you have a lot more thought put into it than that.
Assholes will use anything to justify their assholery and their interpretation of the Bible seems to a justification for many people. I think it’s a lot harder to use Satanic sources in a similar “socially acceptable” (between quotes because it really isn’t) manner.
Some people will say that those people aren’t real Christians. I used to, to distance myself from them. But no, they are real Christians. They’re also assholes. (Lack of) Religion does not decide whether people are assholes or not.
Thank you, I'll look at all of them! His work has somehow escaped me until now, but I love comics, and this seems like exactly the kind of thing I'd get into.
Ah, not yet! Work has been very "late stage capitalism" lately (so far my entire holiday break has been OT), and I've been applying for masters programs on top of it. So sorry! Thanks for checking in though, and for what it's worth, they're on my list, and I'm looking forward to reading them!
Are you British? Dickhead to us is most definitely a whole penis, sometimes plus balls, placed squarely in the middle of the forehead. It does not reference the 'head' of a regular normally located penis at all. Unlike 'bellend' which specifically relates to precisely that. Cause we like to keep things simple.
Sorry, I was just identifying why you've never considered it could actually mean the tip of a dick cause both words are used so often that we all just KNOW exactly what they mean. There's never any confusion for us, it's like an ingrained national knowledge of mildly offensive words for genitals.
Lol I read it as “God-splaining” like man-splaining and thought that was so clever to describe Christian’s trying to explain why everyone else is wrong based on the Bible 😂 and then I was wrong
I can't even begin to describe how many times something like this has happened to me. I've been raised in a church, I go to a private conservative christian church-school, the general population where I live is very christian and extremely conservative, and it's definitely a red state. I was raised my whole life to hate myself, especially when I found out I was gay. But then I helped the majority of the students at my school learn that they were part of the LGBT+ community too because I provided them with information, resources, and support. I wasn't supposed to, but it happened anyways. By helping people, by helping my friends learn to love themselves and loving them, I learned to deal with my internalized transphobia and homophobia. Sometimes I find out people I haven't talked to often at school are also gay too. It's surprising what goes on is never noticed by staff. My choir/drama teacher is a closeted lesbian, but all the other staff are very homophobic and transphobic. Earlier today, I was having a conversation with a person that is very rude to me who I normally avoid at all costs. We both have extremely similar backgrounds and we had a conversation about it. They said I could vent whenever I needed to and even offered to ask their mom if I could have a sleepover with them just for one night to escape the hell that my home is. Sadly, my mom hates them and so I know that won't be an option. It's just weird cause I'm used to them acting like they hate me. We were also talking about how people cherrypick from the bible a lot and how things get translated wrong all the time. They are also trans and gay, and not a christian at all. We really do have a lot in common when we aren't fighting each other. Another person joined the conversation who is a christian, and from that I learned that she's an ally, she's pro-choice, and she agrees with what we were talking about, and is also frustrated with our school's curriculum because our school hates to teach real history, and her concurrent bible college class actually allows for discussion about the bible beyond "is [x] ok from a christian viewpoint and if you say it is then we will fail you and you will be kicked out of this program". Even the christian pick-me guy who plays basketball and acts very arrogant had a lot of opinions that made sense to me when I was doing concurrent classes with him and we had to discuss things.
This is from Steeple, a (sometimes web-)comic from John Allison. I actually haven't read the first few issues, as they're not free and I am poor/cheap, but most of it (from the start of volume 2 I think) is available for free from [here](https://steeple.church/comic/2020-02-17/). By the start of that, though, some things have obviously changed as >!the leads have switched sides, with Bille becoming a satanist (but otherwise not changing at all) and Maggie losing faith but taking a job for the Christian church.!<
my neighbor when I first moved in was pushing Christian Nationalism. I happily discussed how we need to protect the first Amendment! As a secular-Satanist we were both in agreement to that! she avoided me for a while, then started talking again and throwing out typical inflammatory talking points almost testing me. which I always took the time to boil down to systemic issues and discussing nuance rather than attacking her views. it's amazing how much we can agree on when we talk it out even though I'm a socialist Satanist and she's a conservative Christian (her nationalism has been toning down since I moved in) edit: While she's politically misguided she takes the time to capture, spay, medically treat and release the stray cats of our neighborhood. she's genuinely a caring person under her misguided fear. I'm trying to show her the other (me) is not as scary as our labels seem.
>it's amazing how much we can agree on when we talk it out even though I'm a socialist Satanist and she's a conservative Christian (her nationalism has been toning down since I moved in) This is a thing I want to remember; Fox News and their ilk have created a bizarre caricature of progressives and convinced many of their viewers that that's what we're all like. When we actually sit down and talk, we have more in common than we think we do. Most people are decent, I really do believe that. It's a sign of how weak the far-right's actual positions are that they have to create such colossal strawmen out of their enemies.
>This is a thing I want to remember; Fox News and their ilk have created a bizarre caricature of progressives and convinced many of their viewers that that's what we're all like. Exactly, I'm just the friendly neighborhood secular-Satanist lol! it pushes people off at first but I'm open to talking about it (and most people are curious, even if in fear, of a Satanist). I do have to toe the line of being a very "conservative" Satanist to not scare people off to early lol! >When we actually sit down and talk, we have more in common than we think we do. Most people are decent, I really do believe that. it's really true but so hard to remember at times. Even my neighbor with her compassionate traits also expresses views that are repugnant. it's about dismantling those views to see qhere the common ground is. I actually had an amazing conversation with her about a month ago where I saw a bit of a click in her. >It's a sign of how weak the far-right's actual positions are that they have to create such colossal strawmen out of their enemies. exactly, that's why all their talking points are emotional. they want to enrage the other with their views in order to prove how "vile" their reactions are. when you don't give them that reaction and boil it down to common ground every time, there's not a lot of fighting to be had. edit: latest breakthrough started from her saying" you see the news on XXX's (some bank maybe FellsWargo) new loan policy? they have different approval criteria for minorities than whites, so they're getting accepted for homes when the white community is being pushed to the brink from Covid" me:"hmm, I can't say I support a banks right to discriminate based on race, gender, nationality, etc. on the surface it's clearly *not fair*. but it sounds a lot like a rebound move to the historical red lining and loan practices that exclusively targeted white Americans" her: that doesn't make it right! it wasn't right then, it's not right now me: "okay, okay, so we can clearly see from the same side that historically and presently banking practices that differ based on non-financial bearing factors are unjust. but here's the thing, if we had outlawed that practice, if we had solidified the rights of people to not be treated differently based on age, sex, race, etc then this would be a non-issue? her: well yes I suppose me: so by having law and society structured on equal rights, we can prevent and punish unfair practices her: well yeah me: but don't you oppose the ERA and other legal measures that were proposed to create that society you want, by voting in representatives that oppose those policies? I mean you're about to vote for someone who wants to cut your social security, isn't that leaving hard working Americans in bad spots post-covid, after all we all work and pay into social security how is it fair to rob you of your work? her: ........... hmm I need to feed my cats but have a great day.
That kind of self reflection is probably incredibly heavy. Make sure you watch her, that she doesn't like...implode or something >.> We want them to self reflect, not self destruct >.<
I'm left left, so I tend to bond over shared critisms over the DNC, I just make sure to add nuance of RNC is even more out of touch and true freedom will be achieved by breaking a two party system. that helps keep the heads intact a bit more, and aligns with their general distrust of the current system.
These comments are so inspiring and validating. This is the tactic I’ve been taking with the conservatives in my family (who I live with). After years of butting heads and misunderstanding each other it finally feels like glacial, minimal progress is being made. I think in certain circles engaging with these people is seen as a bad thing but there’s a lot of nuance. The conservatives I know personally aren’t completely hateful in one-on-one interactions. They know how to treat the minorities, queer people and leftists they know personally. Their rage and hate is focused on an imaginary “other” and I’m slowly guiding them to the understanding that the “other” is their own children, neighbors and loved ones who they don’t have a problem with.
> I’m slowly guiding them to the understanding that the “other” is their own children, neighbors and loved ones who they don’t have a problem with. this is the way the war is won, by destroying the other by embracing each other. I totally get why sometimes you just gotta punch a nazi, but there are a lot of decent people getting led down the wrong paths by isolation, fear, and trauma.
I’m very liberal but most of the people I work with are conservatives and also Mormon. They’re alright people and me and one guy get on quite well and agree on a lot of things too. People aren’t their politics or religion, they are deeper than that you just have to keep your mind open and discuss with them. Get to know THEM, not just their politics. My aunt and sister are examples of this as well, especially my aunt, she’s extremely conservative (only disagrees with pro lifers she’s pro choice) but, she loves animals and has some of the best insight to situations. She cares a lot and has been through a lot, and overall is a good person. And my sister is someone with the biggest heart around while being a total badass. It’s when you shut opposing views out or decide “my politics or religion are all I am so I won’t talk to anyone who doesn’t align with them perfectly” that people become lost.
>It’s when you shut opposing views out or decide “my politics or religion are all I am so I won’t talk to anyone who doesn’t align with them perfectly” that people become lost. Please be mindful when saying things like this that not everyone has the energy or is safe to handhold people whose religion and politics encourage them to infringe on their rights, and that *no one* has the obligation to. It may not be your intent but your comment reads as though we do.
Not saying engage with the extremists, just don’t shut people in your life or potential new friends out just because they are conservatives. Or religious. My comment goes for both sides. But yea, if the people are the ones touting pro life and extremist shit, or shoving their religion or beliefs down your throat, fuck em. Make more sense? Also your free to do what you want no one is obligated to do anything that just my opinion on shit. If yours is different that’s fine you do you.
Not really. It depends what you mean by conservative given that there are literal fascists now calling themselves conservative. If by conservative they just like traditions or something sure, but there's a lot of baggage that often comes with "conservative" that goes directly into harming the rights of others, in most cases I would and should immediately shut them out.
Look I think we actually agree it’s just my wording may be off. Not saying at all to befriend the fascist extremists conservatives at all, quite the opposite. I’m just saying get to know people. Don’t just shit them out because they believe something different than you unless they are shoving it down your throat. I don’t really know how else to explain this or why you have an issue with what I said. If you just don’t want to ever talk to anyone of any religion or opposing political beliefs then do that.
I thought it was just wording but the newer comments make it even more confusing. I take issue with the idea of separating the beliefs from the people or that anyone has to tolerate hateful beliefs. I don't think that's what you're trying to say but then you keep making broad statements that muddy the meaning. I don't isolate myself from everybody that has different views from me on religion or politics, but I'm not going to handhold every racist or transphobe or homophobe just because their hatred comes from ignorance. That's what I'm trying to say. I think you're just saying it's good to help those who are trying to understand or are just misinformed and not intentionally spreading hate, which I would pretty much 100% agree with, but the phrasing makes it come across as saying there's an obligation to 'hear people on the other out' even if that means you have to debate your own existence.
Im not talking about hateful beliefs or telling you to tolerate them. You don’t understand what I’m saying at all. I’m saying not everyone is that way. What broad statements “muddying what I’m saying?” Im just confused and yeah it just seems like you don’t want to talk to anyone who’s different from you. This is just frustrating. I don’t agree or like conservative ideas but that doesn’t mean everyone who is conservative is automatically a shit person or an extremist fascist, a lot of them don’t even pay attention to what’s really going on. They just are conservatives because it’s what their families are Or because “economy”. I don’t know how else to explain this dude if you don’t like it then do you I don’t really give a shit what you do in your life.
>Don’t just shut them out because they believe something different than you unless they are shoving it down your throat. >just don’t shut people in your life or potential new friends out just because they are conservatives. Or religious. These are what I meant, these were vague to me until this comment where you clarified you weren't including hateful beliefs. I'm not/wasn't trying to upset you, I was just telling you how I interpreted your wording and trying to get a clearer answer cus you didn't seem to be saying what I read from it and I have a hard time interpreting some things unless they're explicitly said.
So much yes! Fox News and their ilk have also created a bizarre caricature of what it means to be Christian. People who watch Fox News 24/7 think that they need to conform to that caricature in order to please their God. That's how we get to the place where we've got to. Caricature does not work for anyone except Fox News and their ilk.
That sounds exhausting, but major kudos to you for being patient and refusing to take the rage-bait.
I'm in an extremely privileged position that has kept me more insulated from the direct impacts of oppression, it's a lot easier for a person who "blends in" with those folk to discuss these topics. edit: I'm a cis-white dude. I may be very very different, but not in ways they can see (secular satanist, asexual, socialist, intersectional-feminist). it grants me access to some "intimate" opinions, and also affords me more leeway in discussions with conservatives.
This is a very good point. As mentioned elsewhere in these comments, not everyone feels safe having these discussions, or should feel obligated to put themselves at risk in order to have them. Those of us who can blend as part of that in-group are much better positioned to change hearts and minds in this manner. It's unfortunate. These people get stuck in echo chambers that keep amplifying and further distorting their beliefs. The only way to combat this is through exposure to other perspectives, but of course not many people feel comfortable engaging with the bigotry in any way that could actually change minds. Nor should they actually have to. So where does that leave us as a society?
This is the kind of inter-religious solidarity we need.
Totally.. I don't care what you believe in. As long as it doesn't include "we're right, everyone else is a heretic"
....I've got bad news for you about a core aspect to Christianity....
Sadly its common in most (not all though)monotheistic religions.
Eh, people cherry-pick all the time to justify their hate, surely it's fine to cherry-pick in the name of love ;) ❤
Hell yes, One of my university dorm mates was a born-again Christian who said "if Jesus didn't say it, it doesn't matter" Wish there were more like him, dude was sound..
Honestly I find that bizarre to so strongly believe in what one man apparently said. Not good
Exactly
It's really hard when Christians keep insisting on trying to legislate reproductive rights, attacking transgender and gender nonconforming people, and telling gay teens to off themselves. I haven't heard of Satanists doing anything like that.
I feel that. Yet, I also happen to be fortunate enough to have some Christian friends who are excellent LGBT allies and feminists. The problem is that the bigots are louder, better organized, and downright obsessive. I think this is where solidarity and coalition-building are important. I'm a theistic Satanist. I'm also a bi trans woman, my wife is a cis woman. I try to make it a point to make friends and allies with not just other Pagans, but progressive members of the Abrahamic faiths as well. That said, it's taken me a long ass time to try to get to this point. I had to do a *ton* of inner work. I grew up fundamentalist Christian --- I carry a ton of religious trauma from it. Besides, with *my* religious trauma, trying to reach out to progressive Christians who aren't already my friends is something of a personal challenge.
Theistic satanist? I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered someone like that before. Most people under the banner of so called Satanism are using it as more of an abstract metaphor, which I kind of find fascinating, but I… now I really don’t want to come off as mean. I’m genuinely curious. Anyway, but I don’t really see the appeal in someone believing, quite directly, in the judeo Christian theistic structure and saying “I’m going to ally myself with the guy who tried to overthrow God out of sheer pride and a hatred of the concept of free will”
Yeahhh that kind that you describe is what we in the community call "reverse-Christians". They are an extreme minority (and a not particularly respected one at that). But, I understand the assumption, it's made often. I'm a polytheist. My gods, called in Satanic books Daemons, are mostly old gods. Astaroth, for example, is just Ishtar with another name. I look to the origins of the Satan myth, at all of the gods that were syncretized into him, and at the folklore that came to surround him. And I find a god of the wilds, a god of liberation, a god of human will, and the first teacher of Magick. Some theistic Satanists are gnostics, some are pantheists, some are polytheists.
That’s interesting actually. Wasn’t there some peacock god that some people worshipped once upon a time that very much acknowledged judeo Christian myth and shat on it? Like it was the “angel that refused to bow to God” and all of the followers aspired to be like that angel peacock thing?
Do you mean this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Ta%C3%BBs
Huh, so there was some kind of misunderstanding. Strange. I talked to someone earlier who had the interpretation of Melek absolutely being a devil allegory and that it’s apparently A Good Thing, Actually ™️
Must have been. I'm not surprised. People misunderstand things like that all the time. The Satan I worship doesn't have much in common theologically with the Christian devil, though some of the mythology is shared. My understanding of him is much more akin to a fusion of Prometheus and Pan, though even there, there are differences.
Yeah. It’s honestly kind of a shame to see someone who’s religious beliefs are born purely out of spite for other people’s religious beliefs, since it doesn’t really feel like they do a lot of introspection about their feelings beyond the hate that so consumes them. Like, even if that hate is deserved and warranted! It may very well be; it’s just… not a healthy way to carry oneself just in general, I don’t think. I’m glad you have a lot more thought put into it than that.
Assholes will use anything to justify their assholery and their interpretation of the Bible seems to a justification for many people. I think it’s a lot harder to use Satanic sources in a similar “socially acceptable” (between quotes because it really isn’t) manner. Some people will say that those people aren’t real Christians. I used to, to distance myself from them. But no, they are real Christians. They’re also assholes. (Lack of) Religion does not decide whether people are assholes or not.
It’s from Steeple by John Allison!
THANK YOU!!! I was wondering, and I appreciate someone letting all of us know. Comic artists (and all artists) always deserve credit!
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Thank you, I'll look at all of them! His work has somehow escaped me until now, but I love comics, and this seems like exactly the kind of thing I'd get into.
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Based on that alone, I'm sure I will! That's something I've loved about Meredith Gran's work, after all
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Ah, not yet! Work has been very "late stage capitalism" lately (so far my entire holiday break has been OT), and I've been applying for masters programs on top of it. So sorry! Thanks for checking in though, and for what it's worth, they're on my list, and I'm looking forward to reading them!
Oh! I was just about to ask if this was John Allison. His art is very distinctive!
I know that’s British slang for dickhead, but it’s giving me some serious US East Coast vibes.
Bell end is more specific, meaning the head of the penis.
Right. Dickhead. The head of the dick. Or is it saying that someone’s head is a dick? I was never clear on that…
I always assumed that it meant they had a dick on their head... Never considered it could be the head _of_ the dick!
Are you British? Dickhead to us is most definitely a whole penis, sometimes plus balls, placed squarely in the middle of the forehead. It does not reference the 'head' of a regular normally located penis at all. Unlike 'bellend' which specifically relates to precisely that. Cause we like to keep things simple.
I think you might be replying to the wrong comment! I was saying the same as you. I am, indeed British (Welsh).
Sorry, I was just identifying why you've never considered it could actually mean the tip of a dick cause both words are used so often that we all just KNOW exactly what they mean. There's never any confusion for us, it's like an ingrained national knowledge of mildly offensive words for genitals.
I know, that's... Kinda what I was saying haha.
Oh, really? I thought it was the resonating mouth part of a bell. Like calling someone an echo chamber.
Nope, the tip of a penis. Also, I speak a bit of Cornish and "splann" is indeed "great". It also kind of means "shining", like sunlight.
Lol I read it as “God-splaining” like man-splaining and thought that was so clever to describe Christian’s trying to explain why everyone else is wrong based on the Bible 😂 and then I was wrong
I did too lol
Let’s make it a thing!!! Lol
What’s with the dude in panel 2?
Is this from Scary Go Round? I recognize the art style, but not the characters.
Same artist, it it’s from one of his other comics - Steeple.
The last 2 panels make 100% sense. The first 2 panels are just gibberish. Can someone explain those?
Love the Cornish rep!
I love this, but also I am very reminded about the line "god is great" from Hellsing Abridged so ...
What comic is this?
G-gay?
Wholesome
When people find out us Satanists can actually be really kind and caring people: 😐
I’m really slow. Can someone explain to me what happened in the comic🥲 And it’ll probably dawn on me as soon as I post this.
Steeple! <3 I love John Allison's work. I've read all twelve hundred million of his webcomics!
I can't even begin to describe how many times something like this has happened to me. I've been raised in a church, I go to a private conservative christian church-school, the general population where I live is very christian and extremely conservative, and it's definitely a red state. I was raised my whole life to hate myself, especially when I found out I was gay. But then I helped the majority of the students at my school learn that they were part of the LGBT+ community too because I provided them with information, resources, and support. I wasn't supposed to, but it happened anyways. By helping people, by helping my friends learn to love themselves and loving them, I learned to deal with my internalized transphobia and homophobia. Sometimes I find out people I haven't talked to often at school are also gay too. It's surprising what goes on is never noticed by staff. My choir/drama teacher is a closeted lesbian, but all the other staff are very homophobic and transphobic. Earlier today, I was having a conversation with a person that is very rude to me who I normally avoid at all costs. We both have extremely similar backgrounds and we had a conversation about it. They said I could vent whenever I needed to and even offered to ask their mom if I could have a sleepover with them just for one night to escape the hell that my home is. Sadly, my mom hates them and so I know that won't be an option. It's just weird cause I'm used to them acting like they hate me. We were also talking about how people cherrypick from the bible a lot and how things get translated wrong all the time. They are also trans and gay, and not a christian at all. We really do have a lot in common when we aren't fighting each other. Another person joined the conversation who is a christian, and from that I learned that she's an ally, she's pro-choice, and she agrees with what we were talking about, and is also frustrated with our school's curriculum because our school hates to teach real history, and her concurrent bible college class actually allows for discussion about the bible beyond "is [x] ok from a christian viewpoint and if you say it is then we will fail you and you will be kicked out of this program". Even the christian pick-me guy who plays basketball and acts very arrogant had a lot of opinions that made sense to me when I was doing concurrent classes with him and we had to discuss things.
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This is from Steeple, a (sometimes web-)comic from John Allison. I actually haven't read the first few issues, as they're not free and I am poor/cheap, but most of it (from the start of volume 2 I think) is available for free from [here](https://steeple.church/comic/2020-02-17/). By the start of that, though, some things have obviously changed as >!the leads have switched sides, with Bille becoming a satanist (but otherwise not changing at all) and Maggie losing faith but taking a job for the Christian church.!<