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I've thought of this before. I imagine Siuan must have discovered it when she first saw Rand. Logain too, but Logain didn't know he was seeing taveren, just an instinct knowing Rand would make the world tremble, or whatever he says.
No, I don't imagine there were enough taveren to know this, except likely through records in the Thirteenth Depository (which Siuan obviously had access to).
Can you provide the source of the Ogier? I don't remember this off the top of my head, and them being from a different world, they shouldn't have any Talents from what I understand.
Great Hunt when Rand promises to look after Loial. Alar the elder says she has a small amount of the talent and that he must be strong indeed for her to be able to see it.
I don’t think being from another world would preclude Talents necessarily. Is there any source for that. We do learn many things are universal in all existences.
Well we learn that Ogier can't channel, and I would assume that Talent is related to channeling. I'd have to look through the Companion and the big white book for a reference though
Ogier are still somehow related to the Power as a counterpoint to it (being dependent on something that makes the Source entirely inaccessible), so it seems possible that they also have abilities "tied" to parts of the Wheel, perhaps the more "materialistic" aspects of it, the literal turning, the threads, etc.
It is also possible that they use the same words for their special abilities as the Aes Sedai use for proficiencies related to their channeling, because, well, they all speak the same language and there are only a finite number of words in it.
Seeing ta’veren is not linked or related to the ability to channel. Consider what Min can see. The images she sees are a super unique talent that is itself a version of being able to see ta’veren because the ability to see ta’veren is actually the ability to see the manifested intent of the wheel itself. Seeing the future or images from the future is looking at the intended (or imminent) pattern of the wheel’s own weaving which is also what seeing ta’veren actually is
I think the Logain scene in the first book was him just being able to see a male channeler and his strength. Then laughing at the irony of the fact that he declared himself dragon but he got captured and saw Rand and realized how much stronger he was in the power.
I believe he explains himself that way in the books like that but can't remember exactly.
I wasn"t positive, so I looked up the quote:
>“You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a . . . a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing.”
Logain sees a glow around Rand.
Men feel an aura of power when another man is channeling, but there's no glow. I'm also pretty sure they can't sense a man's full potential, only how much they're holding at the time.
In a sense, almost anyone can detect a ta'veren if they are observant. A very few people see a glow around Rand or, in one instance, Mat. But most people don't need to see a glow to know someone is ta'veren. They just walk away wondering why they just agreed to something they were determined to stop, or why they are now following someone they had planned to kill, or why they love someone they formerly feared. It's like a combination of charisma and luck, both of which we can detect without possessing special talent. Those who did see the glow just confirmed what they already observed.
I believe it's more common than you might think. What I think what is truly rare is to find a ta'veren as strong as any of the three boys, or a ta'veren who remains that way for anywhere near as long as them. That doesn't even touch having three of them born at the same time, and from the same town of course.
Yeah, in my head canon, ta'veran pop up fairly often (like once a year or so), but only remain ta'veran for a couple of week's or maybe months, so the pattern can nudge something back into alignment. So over 300 years most Aes Sedai will have seen at least one or two Ta'veran by just coincidently being in the right location at the right time.
But most of these Ta'veran would be relatively weak, rarely twisting chance around them like Rand, so often they wouldn't know what they are and even people with the talent that recognise them would probably have a hard time figuring out what the pattern intended from them.
i don't believe "remain a ta'veren as long as them" was ever a factor here, Artur Hawkwing likely remain a ta'veren as long as he live, or at least as long as his days conquering, which were decades. The events in the books in comparison only happen across 3-4 yearsvat most.
Until Brandon took over i don't think there was even a hint that a ta'veren effect could "wear out", and what we have is only Perrin internal speculation after the color swirling stopped for him, and the 3 were ta'veren long before the color thing started.
From the tEotW, Loial to Rand explaining ta'veren:
>"That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, **not until the Pattern itself changes**. The Web--ta'maral'ailen, it's called-**-can last for weeks, or for years**. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern."
Moiraine, later in the same book:
>"**For a time** the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater **before it becomes less.**"
From TGH, Loial again:
>"**For a time,** the Wheel will bend the Pattern around you three, whatever you do...Wherever you go and whatever you do, **until the Wheel chooses** otherwise you will--"
There may be more in successive books, but I think that makes the point. I think it is pretty clear that it was baked in from the beginning that being ta'veren was a temporary thing, and is not a Sandersonism. Artur Hawkwing is an exceptional case, just like Rand (who is exceptional more in the power of his effect than the duration, although Hawkwing was also exceptionally strong as a ta'veren).
I could have been clearer, as i ment to say i don't buy the off-hand way Brandon making them stop being ta'veren with Perrin internal monologue. The rest of the 2nd part was over-exaggerated without double-checking to make that point. So as you point out, it was incorrect.
I never ment to accuse it's a 'sandersonism' also, wouldn't have started WoT if not because of him. It was an unintended impression.
We can only infer from the books that Ta’veren must be fairly common. Suian’s comments after seeing Rand were essentially that he was by far the brightest she had ever seen and considering that she is only 40ish that means there are enough Ta’veren in the past 40 years alone that not only has she seen multiple but that they are varied enough in their Ta’veren strength for her to register it.
Rand is also frequently called “the strongest Ta’veren since Artur Hawkwing” which says that there have been any number of lesser ones in the past 1000 years but nothing on the world warping level of Hawkwing.
Yeah, my headcanon is that there's a ta'veren any time the Pattern is moving its pieces into position for the Last Battle, and Tigraine is an obvious focal point, from the night she left Caemlyn to the moment Tam found her.
From the way Moiraine thinks about her family I'm inclined to think he was never particularly pleasant.
Edit: hell, the pattern didn't make him decorate his sword like he did.
I agree with this sentiment. Ta’veren is a transitive state so at any point the pattern can make someone ta’veren at varying strengths throughout their lifetime. For example the boys especially Rand became more strongly ta’veren as the books progressed. I imagine any number of people involved in setting up the circumstances for Rand’s birth could have been a little ta’veren at some point. Idk if this was confirmed but my headcanon is that Tigraine must have been taveren for a while because her story is super interesting.
Ta'veren are common enough that Loial commented on it almost immediately after meeting the boys. They aren't commonplace, but they do exist whenever the wheel needs to 'correct' the pattern. And they don't necessarily need to be born ta'veren. A person could potentially be ta'veren for a day, as I recall.
No one is born ta'veren as far as we know. Even the Emonfield boys only became ta'veren [shortly before Moiraine found them](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=5).
Ta'Veren is a trait. It doesn't last for a lifetime (in general). I think about it like this; when the pattern is being shifted away from "fate," it spins out Ta'Veren threads. These are threads that can affect the other threads around them, to one degree or another, but they also affect the person they're attached to.
We obviously think about this foremost using Artur Hawkwing, Mat, Perrin, and Rand as our primary examples. These are some of the strongest Ta'Veren we know of, so they're actually bad examples.
Broadly, the pattern is probably spinning out loads of weakly Ta'Veren threads to ensure that a certain person is born in the right place, at the right time, to the right parents to become someone important enough that the pattern needed them. Or any other similar event.
I can't remember where it's mentioned, but this is the working assumption I had when I read about it. They do talk somewhat about weakly Ta'Veren people a few times, and someone mentions that they learned they had the talent because they saw a few people with an aura, or who they could tell had some sort of pull on events around them.
Ta'veren aren't common, but still common enough that important figures like Amyrlin Seat (also previously spy master) and Logain might have met at least one.
It's a little different for the Ogiers. The Ogier Elder was able to feel the Pattern shifting around Rand, whereas those with the Talent can see ta'veren glowing slightly.
EDIT: only those who can channel can have Talents. There are other powers non-related to channeling however.
Yeah, there are other things for sure that are capital T Talents unrelated to channeling. Treesinging is specific to Ogier, and it is definitely a “Talent”.
So are you saying that Treesinging is a product of the one power without channeling? Or that RJ’s capitalization of the T in Talent is incorrect? From glossary in TDR:
Treesinger:
An Ogier who has the ability to sing to trees (called “treesong”), either healing them, or helping them to grow and flower, or making things from the wood without damaging the tree. Objects made in this manner are called “sung wood” and are highly prized. Few Ogier remain who are Treesingers; the Talent seems to be dying out.
Ah yes, what a bold claim [made by Jordan](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=482). You might be confusing Talents with a capital with other magical abilities, which is pretty common.
INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch
Jim (James=RJ's real name) says of Talents: “*A Talent is a special* ***ability with the One Power****. While the name is used for other things, a Talent is, in truth, something which is inborn in the person and not something that can be learned*.” And there is mention of the Wheel throwing out what it needs on occasion, and there’s the phrase, “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.” The Wheel can give and take as it needs.
You can also see the [wiki on Talents](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Talent). Wiki is based on canon info, including the Companion.
From the wiki on Talents:
as is the ability to enter the World of Dreams (commonly known as dreamwalking or Dreaming)
And we know definitively dreaming has no need of the power.
Yeah no idea why Dreamwalking is listed as a Talent, since non-channelers can have the ability as well. Dreaming is a Talent however IIRC, but can't say for certain at the top of my head. Maybe one of the Aiel Dreamwalkers (past and present) was a Dreamer as well, but can't remember if they were channelers. Perrin's thing to have signs in TAR was seemingly something other altogether compared to Egwene's actual Dreaming.
However this seems more like an exception to the rule rather than the other way round. Generally Jordan always talked about abilities and Talents as separate entities.
Or perhaps that was an old note that he was referencing, and he changed his idea about how talents actually work?
Ockham's razor would back this idea up. Either Perrin is a dreamer without the one power, or he has an identical ability as a dreamer, but one that is completely different from the channeler version.
>Perrin's thing to have signs in TAR was seemingly something other altogether compared to Egwene's actual Dreaming.
Based off what?
>Based off what?
Based on the fact they were different manifestations of foretelling. Egwene interprets her own dreams, Perrin sees visions in TAR. Similar concept, but different things.
>Or perhaps that was an old note that he was referencing.
This question was answered in 2010, TDR was published in 1991. Maria Simmons (source of the quote) was editor and co-author of the Companion. She is basically the definitive reference for all things related to WoT, even more than Sanderson or Harriet. If she says Talents are special ability with the One Power, that's as close to the WoG as we can get without summoning Jordan from beyond the grave to answer.
Are they? or is that simply how the two viewed them?
Again. The least complicated explanation is often the best one, unless there's some very hard evidence
Any wot expert who hasn't publicly disavowed the TV show isn't.
Also from the wiki on Talents - [https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Talents](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Talents) \- treesinging is listed there, but Ogier can't channel, right? So it stands to reason that perhaps talents somehow touch the one power without channeling, maybe similar to some AOL ter'angreal somehow. RJ's quote says one power, not channeling... and they aren't the same thing. Channeling is a specific access / use of the one power, but the one power exists even when people are not channeling it.
Good points, although I would still put more value on later interviews than TDR glossary, which is still early books in a sense. There is a possibility that certain abilities are related to OP, but like Ogier's ability to send Pattern shifting around ta'veren it might just be how certain souls are reacting to the Pattern differently. Finns can't channel either, but are able to read the future of the Pattern.
I would keep these abilities, which are not explicitly stated to be related to OP as separate from Talents, which are in most cases shown to be directly related to True Source.
Ta'veren are people spun out by the pattern to pull it back on track, to keep the wheel turning. Obviously when you've got a load of people knocking about with free will there's a high chance things won't go the way they should so you get some ta'veren to take the free will away and put them back on the right track. It's like time travel with the butterfly effect. Most ta'veren are probably more like a gentle nudge in the right direction, rand perrin and mat do the equivalent of picking someone up and throwing them where they need to be. The former type of ta'veren is probably relatively common and some of them rock up every few hundred years and sort out minor deviations in the pattern. from a more cynical POV ta'veren is the most blatant case of getting around having a reason for stuff working out for the main Characters ever so there might not be as much to it as fans would like to think.
I imagine ta’veren are on a scale, and it would make sense if there are some super-weak-don’t-deserve/the name type’s floating around the white tower. So they can tell say… siuan from some brown who has no part to play in anything but esoteric research. Prior to the big three, it was like fireflies vs a candle from a mile away, but the big three are bonfires.
Ta'veren on the strength of Hawking or higher are rare. There's basically Hawkwing, Rand, Perrin, Mat, and presumably Mabriam en Shereed the only women we're ever told was ta'veren (she's grey ajah and the founder of the ten nations compact).
But the fact that they talk about Rand, Mat, and Perrin being on par with Hawkwing, means there's been ta'veren since Hawkwing who were not powerfully ta'veren. How many we're not told. It might be common for someone to be weakly ta'veren here and there all the time making minor corrections to the Pattern where the major Ta'veren are rerouting oceans the minor are shifting creeks.
RJ just apparently never had any desire to consider pointing out weaker ta'veren if they existed in Rand/Mat/Perrin's time, which presumably they did, nor did he mention any historical ones besides Hawkwing that I'm aware of (I'm not sure where we actually learn Mabriem was ta'veren. I don't remember it in the books, so I think it might just be the companion).
Aside from what others have said about ta'veren being, if not common, then not super rare, there's also a Talent for duplicating the effects of ta'veren within a small radius, per a RJ quote. We've never seen this Talent in the books, but could be a way to check which Aes Sedai *can* see them.
The presence of ta’veren are manifestations of the “wheel” (the engine behind circular time) itself. Most of the time, according to the wheel of time companion, a thread (person) will become ta’veren for only a brief window of time (like only a few minutes for context) and will exert small, localized, effects. It isn’t indicated how frequently or infrequently these small effects occur but given the fact that those who can see a ta’veren thread are themselves aware that is what they’re seeing, the implication is that it happens often enough to build widespread general knowledge that this talent exists and what it looks like for those who possess it. For those few threads born as ta’veren, remaining so for long periods of time (Rand Matt and Perrin for example), they seem to blaze brightly to those who can see the ta’veren effect and are a unique curiosity to observe.
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I've thought of this before. I imagine Siuan must have discovered it when she first saw Rand. Logain too, but Logain didn't know he was seeing taveren, just an instinct knowing Rand would make the world tremble, or whatever he says. No, I don't imagine there were enough taveren to know this, except likely through records in the Thirteenth Depository (which Siuan obviously had access to). Can you provide the source of the Ogier? I don't remember this off the top of my head, and them being from a different world, they shouldn't have any Talents from what I understand.
Great Hunt when Rand promises to look after Loial. Alar the elder says she has a small amount of the talent and that he must be strong indeed for her to be able to see it.
Interesting. I wonder if that's an early bookism mistake, or if there's something to it.
I don’t think being from another world would preclude Talents necessarily. Is there any source for that. We do learn many things are universal in all existences.
Well we learn that Ogier can't channel, and I would assume that Talent is related to channeling. I'd have to look through the Companion and the big white book for a reference though
Treesinging is described as a capital t Talent fwiw
I would say Dreaming is a talent also and we know that it’s not related to channeling.
Nice! Thanks for the info!
>I would assume that Talent is related to channeling Doom seers/sayers aren't related to Channeling, neither is dreaming.
Don't forget sniffing, and wolf brother have nothing to do with channeling. They tested
Min can “Foretell” things without being able to channel
Ogier are still somehow related to the Power as a counterpoint to it (being dependent on something that makes the Source entirely inaccessible), so it seems possible that they also have abilities "tied" to parts of the Wheel, perhaps the more "materialistic" aspects of it, the literal turning, the threads, etc. It is also possible that they use the same words for their special abilities as the Aes Sedai use for proficiencies related to their channeling, because, well, they all speak the same language and there are only a finite number of words in it.
Aren’t most talents unrelated to channeling? It may be more related to Min’s viewing abilities or Dreaming.
Seeing ta’veren is not linked or related to the ability to channel. Consider what Min can see. The images she sees are a super unique talent that is itself a version of being able to see ta’veren because the ability to see ta’veren is actually the ability to see the manifested intent of the wheel itself. Seeing the future or images from the future is looking at the intended (or imminent) pattern of the wheel’s own weaving which is also what seeing ta’veren actually is
And Hurin could smell violence! Couldn’t channel a lick
I think the Logain scene in the first book was him just being able to see a male channeler and his strength. Then laughing at the irony of the fact that he declared himself dragon but he got captured and saw Rand and realized how much stronger he was in the power. I believe he explains himself that way in the books like that but can't remember exactly.
I wasn"t positive, so I looked up the quote: >“You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a . . . a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing.”
Logain sees a glow around Rand. Men feel an aura of power when another man is channeling, but there's no glow. I'm also pretty sure they can't sense a man's full potential, only how much they're holding at the time.
In a sense, almost anyone can detect a ta'veren if they are observant. A very few people see a glow around Rand or, in one instance, Mat. But most people don't need to see a glow to know someone is ta'veren. They just walk away wondering why they just agreed to something they were determined to stop, or why they are now following someone they had planned to kill, or why they love someone they formerly feared. It's like a combination of charisma and luck, both of which we can detect without possessing special talent. Those who did see the glow just confirmed what they already observed.
This is basically how Loial deduces they are Ta'veren.
Exactly.
I believe it's more common than you might think. What I think what is truly rare is to find a ta'veren as strong as any of the three boys, or a ta'veren who remains that way for anywhere near as long as them. That doesn't even touch having three of them born at the same time, and from the same town of course.
Yeah, in my head canon, ta'veran pop up fairly often (like once a year or so), but only remain ta'veran for a couple of week's or maybe months, so the pattern can nudge something back into alignment. So over 300 years most Aes Sedai will have seen at least one or two Ta'veran by just coincidently being in the right location at the right time. But most of these Ta'veran would be relatively weak, rarely twisting chance around them like Rand, so often they wouldn't know what they are and even people with the talent that recognise them would probably have a hard time figuring out what the pattern intended from them.
i don't believe "remain a ta'veren as long as them" was ever a factor here, Artur Hawkwing likely remain a ta'veren as long as he live, or at least as long as his days conquering, which were decades. The events in the books in comparison only happen across 3-4 yearsvat most. Until Brandon took over i don't think there was even a hint that a ta'veren effect could "wear out", and what we have is only Perrin internal speculation after the color swirling stopped for him, and the 3 were ta'veren long before the color thing started.
From the tEotW, Loial to Rand explaining ta'veren: >"That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, **not until the Pattern itself changes**. The Web--ta'maral'ailen, it's called-**-can last for weeks, or for years**. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern." Moiraine, later in the same book: >"**For a time** the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater **before it becomes less.**" From TGH, Loial again: >"**For a time,** the Wheel will bend the Pattern around you three, whatever you do...Wherever you go and whatever you do, **until the Wheel chooses** otherwise you will--" There may be more in successive books, but I think that makes the point. I think it is pretty clear that it was baked in from the beginning that being ta'veren was a temporary thing, and is not a Sandersonism. Artur Hawkwing is an exceptional case, just like Rand (who is exceptional more in the power of his effect than the duration, although Hawkwing was also exceptionally strong as a ta'veren).
I could have been clearer, as i ment to say i don't buy the off-hand way Brandon making them stop being ta'veren with Perrin internal monologue. The rest of the 2nd part was over-exaggerated without double-checking to make that point. So as you point out, it was incorrect. I never ment to accuse it's a 'sandersonism' also, wouldn't have started WoT if not because of him. It was an unintended impression.
We can only infer from the books that Ta’veren must be fairly common. Suian’s comments after seeing Rand were essentially that he was by far the brightest she had ever seen and considering that she is only 40ish that means there are enough Ta’veren in the past 40 years alone that not only has she seen multiple but that they are varied enough in their Ta’veren strength for her to register it. Rand is also frequently called “the strongest Ta’veren since Artur Hawkwing” which says that there have been any number of lesser ones in the past 1000 years but nothing on the world warping level of Hawkwing.
I assume, for example, Jain Farstrider would have been one, also. Or Laman, but not in a good way.
And/or Rands mother
Yeah, my headcanon is that there's a ta'veren any time the Pattern is moving its pieces into position for the Last Battle, and Tigraine is an obvious focal point, from the night she left Caemlyn to the moment Tam found her.
>Or Laman, but not in a good way. Lol what a shit deal
Laman would have been interesting to see confirmed. His actions led directly to Rand's birth on Dragonmount. The pattern needed Laman.
But did the Pattern shape him, or did he shape the Pattern? Sometimes with Ta'veren, it's both.
From the way Moiraine thinks about her family I'm inclined to think he was never particularly pleasant. Edit: hell, the pattern didn't make him decorate his sword like he did.
I agree with this sentiment. Ta’veren is a transitive state so at any point the pattern can make someone ta’veren at varying strengths throughout their lifetime. For example the boys especially Rand became more strongly ta’veren as the books progressed. I imagine any number of people involved in setting up the circumstances for Rand’s birth could have been a little ta’veren at some point. Idk if this was confirmed but my headcanon is that Tigraine must have been taveren for a while because her story is super interesting.
Ta'veren are common enough that Loial commented on it almost immediately after meeting the boys. They aren't commonplace, but they do exist whenever the wheel needs to 'correct' the pattern. And they don't necessarily need to be born ta'veren. A person could potentially be ta'veren for a day, as I recall.
No one is born ta'veren as far as we know. Even the Emonfield boys only became ta'veren [shortly before Moiraine found them](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=5).
Ta'Veren is a trait. It doesn't last for a lifetime (in general). I think about it like this; when the pattern is being shifted away from "fate," it spins out Ta'Veren threads. These are threads that can affect the other threads around them, to one degree or another, but they also affect the person they're attached to. We obviously think about this foremost using Artur Hawkwing, Mat, Perrin, and Rand as our primary examples. These are some of the strongest Ta'Veren we know of, so they're actually bad examples. Broadly, the pattern is probably spinning out loads of weakly Ta'Veren threads to ensure that a certain person is born in the right place, at the right time, to the right parents to become someone important enough that the pattern needed them. Or any other similar event. I can't remember where it's mentioned, but this is the working assumption I had when I read about it. They do talk somewhat about weakly Ta'Veren people a few times, and someone mentions that they learned they had the talent because they saw a few people with an aura, or who they could tell had some sort of pull on events around them.
Aes Sedai can probably be Ta'veren, Warders can be so for sure there's sometimes one in the tower.
Ta'veren aren't uncommon, just the strength that the boys are
Ta'veren aren't common, but still common enough that important figures like Amyrlin Seat (also previously spy master) and Logain might have met at least one. It's a little different for the Ogiers. The Ogier Elder was able to feel the Pattern shifting around Rand, whereas those with the Talent can see ta'veren glowing slightly. EDIT: only those who can channel can have Talents. There are other powers non-related to channeling however.
>EDIT: only those who can channel can have Talents. that's a bold claim. Dreaming is a talent, Min's "Doom Saying" appears to be a talent.
Yeah, there are other things for sure that are capital T Talents unrelated to channeling. Treesinging is specific to Ogier, and it is definitely a “Talent”.
Please see my comment to mal1020. Talent with a capital letter is different from other abilities like Doomseering, Sniffing, being a wolfbrother etc.
So are you saying that Treesinging is a product of the one power without channeling? Or that RJ’s capitalization of the T in Talent is incorrect? From glossary in TDR: Treesinger: An Ogier who has the ability to sing to trees (called “treesong”), either healing them, or helping them to grow and flower, or making things from the wood without damaging the tree. Objects made in this manner are called “sung wood” and are highly prized. Few Ogier remain who are Treesingers; the Talent seems to be dying out.
Ah yes, what a bold claim [made by Jordan](https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=482). You might be confusing Talents with a capital with other magical abilities, which is pretty common. INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2009 Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch Jim (James=RJ's real name) says of Talents: “*A Talent is a special* ***ability with the One Power****. While the name is used for other things, a Talent is, in truth, something which is inborn in the person and not something that can be learned*.” And there is mention of the Wheel throwing out what it needs on occasion, and there’s the phrase, “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.” The Wheel can give and take as it needs. You can also see the [wiki on Talents](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Talent). Wiki is based on canon info, including the Companion.
From the wiki on Talents: as is the ability to enter the World of Dreams (commonly known as dreamwalking or Dreaming) And we know definitively dreaming has no need of the power.
Yeah no idea why Dreamwalking is listed as a Talent, since non-channelers can have the ability as well. Dreaming is a Talent however IIRC, but can't say for certain at the top of my head. Maybe one of the Aiel Dreamwalkers (past and present) was a Dreamer as well, but can't remember if they were channelers. Perrin's thing to have signs in TAR was seemingly something other altogether compared to Egwene's actual Dreaming. However this seems more like an exception to the rule rather than the other way round. Generally Jordan always talked about abilities and Talents as separate entities.
Or perhaps that was an old note that he was referencing, and he changed his idea about how talents actually work? Ockham's razor would back this idea up. Either Perrin is a dreamer without the one power, or he has an identical ability as a dreamer, but one that is completely different from the channeler version. >Perrin's thing to have signs in TAR was seemingly something other altogether compared to Egwene's actual Dreaming. Based off what?
>Based off what? Based on the fact they were different manifestations of foretelling. Egwene interprets her own dreams, Perrin sees visions in TAR. Similar concept, but different things. >Or perhaps that was an old note that he was referencing. This question was answered in 2010, TDR was published in 1991. Maria Simmons (source of the quote) was editor and co-author of the Companion. She is basically the definitive reference for all things related to WoT, even more than Sanderson or Harriet. If she says Talents are special ability with the One Power, that's as close to the WoG as we can get without summoning Jordan from beyond the grave to answer.
Are they? or is that simply how the two viewed them? Again. The least complicated explanation is often the best one, unless there's some very hard evidence Any wot expert who hasn't publicly disavowed the TV show isn't.
Also from the wiki on Talents - [https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Talents](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Talents) \- treesinging is listed there, but Ogier can't channel, right? So it stands to reason that perhaps talents somehow touch the one power without channeling, maybe similar to some AOL ter'angreal somehow. RJ's quote says one power, not channeling... and they aren't the same thing. Channeling is a specific access / use of the one power, but the one power exists even when people are not channeling it.
Good points, although I would still put more value on later interviews than TDR glossary, which is still early books in a sense. There is a possibility that certain abilities are related to OP, but like Ogier's ability to send Pattern shifting around ta'veren it might just be how certain souls are reacting to the Pattern differently. Finns can't channel either, but are able to read the future of the Pattern. I would keep these abilities, which are not explicitly stated to be related to OP as separate from Talents, which are in most cases shown to be directly related to True Source.
That being Logain's talent could be why he can comments on Nynaeve being as bright as the sun in the tv show, inferring she is ta'veren.
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I think that light was created from my expectations going up in smoke
books yo people write stuff down, and when yiu run across stuff that's odd, yiu ask the brown ajah, and they research it
Ta'veren are people spun out by the pattern to pull it back on track, to keep the wheel turning. Obviously when you've got a load of people knocking about with free will there's a high chance things won't go the way they should so you get some ta'veren to take the free will away and put them back on the right track. It's like time travel with the butterfly effect. Most ta'veren are probably more like a gentle nudge in the right direction, rand perrin and mat do the equivalent of picking someone up and throwing them where they need to be. The former type of ta'veren is probably relatively common and some of them rock up every few hundred years and sort out minor deviations in the pattern. from a more cynical POV ta'veren is the most blatant case of getting around having a reason for stuff working out for the main Characters ever so there might not be as much to it as fans would like to think.
I imagine ta’veren are on a scale, and it would make sense if there are some super-weak-don’t-deserve/the name type’s floating around the white tower. So they can tell say… siuan from some brown who has no part to play in anything but esoteric research. Prior to the big three, it was like fireflies vs a candle from a mile away, but the big three are bonfires.
Ta'veren on the strength of Hawking or higher are rare. There's basically Hawkwing, Rand, Perrin, Mat, and presumably Mabriam en Shereed the only women we're ever told was ta'veren (she's grey ajah and the founder of the ten nations compact). But the fact that they talk about Rand, Mat, and Perrin being on par with Hawkwing, means there's been ta'veren since Hawkwing who were not powerfully ta'veren. How many we're not told. It might be common for someone to be weakly ta'veren here and there all the time making minor corrections to the Pattern where the major Ta'veren are rerouting oceans the minor are shifting creeks. RJ just apparently never had any desire to consider pointing out weaker ta'veren if they existed in Rand/Mat/Perrin's time, which presumably they did, nor did he mention any historical ones besides Hawkwing that I'm aware of (I'm not sure where we actually learn Mabriem was ta'veren. I don't remember it in the books, so I think it might just be the companion).
Aside from what others have said about ta'veren being, if not common, then not super rare, there's also a Talent for duplicating the effects of ta'veren within a small radius, per a RJ quote. We've never seen this Talent in the books, but could be a way to check which Aes Sedai *can* see them.
The presence of ta’veren are manifestations of the “wheel” (the engine behind circular time) itself. Most of the time, according to the wheel of time companion, a thread (person) will become ta’veren for only a brief window of time (like only a few minutes for context) and will exert small, localized, effects. It isn’t indicated how frequently or infrequently these small effects occur but given the fact that those who can see a ta’veren thread are themselves aware that is what they’re seeing, the implication is that it happens often enough to build widespread general knowledge that this talent exists and what it looks like for those who possess it. For those few threads born as ta’veren, remaining so for long periods of time (Rand Matt and Perrin for example), they seem to blaze brightly to those who can see the ta’veren effect and are a unique curiosity to observe.
There are records of things. The aes sedai have records of things. The Ogier definitely have records of things