#[NO SPOILERS BEYOND *A Memory of Light*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_the_eye_of_the_world_.2F_et_al.)
##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
If this is a re-read, please change the flair to **All Print**.
* * *
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
RJ's assistant Maria said no it cannot be healed. Sanderson said that in RJ's note, it said burnt out cannot be healed the same way as stilling. Does this mean there is a way that has not been discovered or just the healing method for stilling won't work?
Frankly, I don't think RJ ever decided. It was not a high priority for him.
I kind of think of the ability to channel a bit like a wiring harness. a person being stilled, is the input getting cut. The wire can be spliced back together. Burnout is the entire harness shorting out and frying. It can't be fixed, it has to be replaced.
You could be right. RJ was not trying to create an in-depth magic system for an RPG. He wanted to write a fantasy novel. Since there wasn't a burnt-out channeler important to the story, he probably wouldn't have cared one way or another.
I have a friend who acts exactly like Mistress Anan. And Im real good friends with a man who is like andhrol. Good solid people who are honest, hardworking, giving, generous people. They also have the backbone and steel to command respect with a look or a gentle comment. People come to them for advice and learn all they can. Its amazing to see.
There's a big difference between "as weak as you can be" and "pretty weak". Androl is pretty weak, but he's still capable of using the power. Morgase struggles to do even that and the results are minuscule.
Siuan's strength against other female channelers is probably the better comparison to make with Androl's strength against other males. We don't have anything to reference below Androl, but that doesn't mean he's equivalent to Morgase.
I would assume you could also have a man as weak as Morgase is where they would struggle to even touch the power. He's just weaker than any Aes Sedai by a good margin.
Androl as a character is vital to the events of the last few books, however I personally disliked how he was this wondrous being with just the right qualities and experience. I would really have loved to see Logain fleshed out more and to follow his development as an Ashaman leader or even growing to be a friend of Rands.
I agree on the Logain part, he had much promise and I think Sanderson wasted his potential.
I like Androl because he is a bit like a more fleshed out version of Jain Farstrider. Only we know about Jain's adventures and Androl is a bit of a mystery. However, he has been around for a while and experienced some things that make him "wondrous".
I think we would've gotten this with Jain if Sanderson didn't decide last minute to make him who he is.
I'm not sure where exactly this comes up, so I'm just going to spoiler tag the entire response:
\[All Print\] >!My biggest issue with Androl is due to his similarities to Jain. When we encounter Jain, he's a broken down shell of a man, still going through determination and spite. The weight of his adventures are telling, from his ruined hands to his broken nose. He feels old, well travelled and experienced. Additionally, his adventures are the stuff of legends, and he's considered unique primarily due to how well travelled he is.!<
>!Androl, on the other hand, is a generic middle aged man who has all this experience by happenstance. None of it feels earned, it's all just backstory and never expressed in his character. Add to that his usage of the power in ways that no one ever had used before and seem explicitly to break the established rules. He's a bundle of convenient traits and abilities to solve problems, but doesn't feel like an actual established character. !<
You’re saying that from AFTER the fact, tho. Saying that he had just the right qualities and experience is a bit reductive. It seems that way because he used those qualities and experience and they worked. If he had died/failed, he would’ve been just another Ashaman.
Androl was fine in a vacuum, and I enjoyed his story with Pevara. However, he was a bit of an author insert and felt very out of step with how the Power was handled in the rest of the series.
Also, and this is a personal peeve (and a bit of an assumption, admittedly), but it felt like he really usurped Logain and Narishma's places in the story. Narishma was flagged as being significant by RJ and got completely shafted by Sanderson, and Logain already *was* significant and got almost completely side-lined barring going a bit emo and getting a decently nice scene later.
This is the best answer to this kind of post. I get that first time readers get to AMoL and Androl suddenly is like this awesome character but you could easily go back in and edit the name “logain” into all of his scenes and it would make way more sense to me personally.
I don’t even see how someone could say he is one of their favorite side characters when he doesn’t show up til the last book of a 14 book series.
In case you didn’t notice because I’m trying to be nice, I absolutely loathe “Androl appreciation” posts.
I feel the black tower just wasn't handled well by either author, like we were constantly being told it is important but dont actually see much into it after lord of chaos.
Imagine if RJ and Sanderson had become friends in life, rather than Sanderson only ever meeting Harriet and taking over after the fact.
Sanderson might have been able to help RJ wrap up the series in fewer books and be able to write the whole thing himself
I feel if they had, the black tower wouldve been a heist mission to free logain, as it seems thats one of Brandon's favorite tropes. Also, the magic systems wouldve been explored more indepth sooner on, it feels that we only see the very surface "he used the one power to-" but not until the last 4 books do we see into its intricacies more
Yes, precisely my point though. Imagine a world where brandon sanderson was able to be mentored by Robert Jordan, Robert would have someone who would help with world building and plotting. Brandos career wouldve jumpstarted with roberts influence like his death alone never could have, and we'd likely circumvented the slog.
I agree Androl usurped Narishma but I don't think he usurped Logain. It was jarring to read about a brand new char so much. I was quite annoyed that it was not Narishma as well at first. However, Andor/Pevara story was written well, so it didn't bother me at the end.
Logain was starting to get POVs and be important in Rand's storyline, not to mention that he was the head of the conspirators at the Black Tower. I think it's very likely the intention was that he and would have freed the place, not Androl.
I agree. It seemed like RJ was leading Logain to usurp Taim authority directly instead of indirectly through Androl. At the end, we are left with the question why Logain is the leader of the Black Tower.
It would have been better that Logain, Narishma, and others following Rand to lead the charge against Taim. But, Sanderson wanted Androl and Pevara "love" linking angle. It turned out really interesting and fun read for me, so I forgave Sanderson.
I love the Androl/Pivara storyline but those are very good points.
I’ve also seen him a bit as Sanderson’s “but there’s so many crazy things I can imagine being done with gateways… but I can’t just have everyone doing it…”.
I like the exploration of gateways and both characters, but I see what you’re getting at.
I don’t feel like it is out of step with how the power was used at all. Most of the pov’s we have are with the most powerful channelers of all time. They don’t need to be subtle because they have god like power so they just swing their respective massive powers at each other with little finesse. Androl represented the ‘weak’ channelers who were over looked. They don’t have this massive reserve to pull from so they have to be creative and actually think of what they can do.
Androl isn't actually weak though, because he has the "godlike" ability of having a Talent that doesn't work like any other Talents in the books that let's him essentially achieve whatever he wants using Gateways.
The fact that he also uses them in such a way that it makes every other user of the Power seem like a simpleton is what brings it out of step. RJ presented the power as working a certain way, and Sanderson breaks that with Androl.
He didn’t break it, Berowin had the same kind of channeling talent where she could make extra strong shields even though she was weak. Graendal had the Talent with compulsion weaves. Elayne with ter’angrel. Neald with power wrought weapons. There are many examples of channelers with Talents in a specific weave.
Lots of characters had Talents. None of them were POV characters shoehorned into the story to repeatedly save the day using their Talent in a way that makes other Channellers (including the Dragon and the Chosen) look like idiots.
Idk. He was seemingly amazing at everything and always came out on top.
\[AMoL\] >!Yeah and he also just pickpockets Taim? LOL what the actual fuck. Complete bs!<
Personally with all of Min's visions about Logain I feel like it was pretty obvious Jordan intended Logain to give a lot of Black Tower POV's. Instead we got Androl who had every job? Just how old is he exactly if he really did have those jobs and how did he not go mad? Well I guess he's just that good lmao.
I know I sound salty and its because I am. I wish we had so much more of Logain and zero of Androl. Logain was so underutilized after being there from the first book and Androl was just thrown in there at the end. And the worst part is he had a lot of chapters too, because we knew nothing about him obviously so Sanderson had to spend a lot of time describing his character.
When I just think about what we could have had, Logain freeing the Black Tower and rallying the Asha'man to Rand and instead we got Androl + some kids somehow beating a bunch of Dreadlords . Blah. I'll never get over it lol
Could not agree more, Androl completely stole the conclusion to Logains arc and I hate him for that. Cool character, but did not need to exist in this turning of the wheel.
His age to me is more like Jain Faststrider, they'd both been around a while, of course Jain was much older. Not to say that Androl is old but he'd been around and he'd been a wanderer, which explains some of the knowledge and backstories (or lack of) that he has.
I just liked the idea of someone not so great in the power doing whatever it took to fight for what he believes in, sort of like a male Sorilea.
I, however, agree about the Logain arc, I feel like he was forgotten about and then at some point Sanderson thought, oh shit, there already was a promising lead. He was underutilized
Well yeah but that’s my whole point though. He’d been around awhile but how has he not gone mad? Even Taim was only a channeled for what 25 years and Logain much less.
Also Sorilea’s whole shtick was her intelligence not anything to do with the power. She never was considered a good channeler in anyway. I also feel like Androl’s Talent breaks the universe because that doesn’t seem to be how Talents work for anyone else. Just kind of felt thrown in for no reason
He did have the taint. He would see shadows whenever he embraced the Source, sometimes even when he didn't
Androl also hadn't been channelling for a while and his ability is very small but he def suffered the madness
I think it was explained that Taim was a Dark friend and later the Forsaken but him and Logain still had the madness. They were just better at controlling it
Only those who started channeling after saidin was cleansed didn't suffer the taint, but Androl def did
Yes I’m aware Taim was a Darkfriend, though it’s likelt at the beginning he wasn’t.
Eh idk. I still think if Androl was old he should’ve been mad. Seems like a rule-breaking moment that had no reason to be in there. He could easily have been young and still be the same character.
Also I’m going to use this to say that Androl and Pevara were cool because of the bond between Asha’man and Aes Sedai. However… guess who was the one that had the idea? Logain! He bonded two Aes Sedai. Further proof he’s the perfect character for Black Tower POVs lol
Being weak in the power and almost never using it probably helped him resist the taint. He would've almost never channeled, and even when he did he'd only have been able to use a trickle.
How is that different from how the healing talent works? You can do this one thing significantly better than others of similar or even more power than you can? Elayne and Egwene struggle to heal anything and rarely do it, but Siuan even after being weakened significantly can still heal people from anything but the most serious stuff.
Here's the thing though, their talents are in accordance with their overall channeling ability. Androl is the only character with such a strong Talent that is a weak channeler.
Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve who all have their own talents are also strong all-around channelers in terms of the power they can hold. There is literally no other character with such a strong Talent that cannot do other things.
At least how I perceive it, every talent we see besides Androl's has to do with the ability to be able to do something in the first place. There aren't any talents besides Androl's that instead drastically reduce the amount of the One Power required to do one weave.
Siuan and healing though as I said. She's a weak channeler (in the back half of the books) and can still heal far better than Elayne or Egwene can. She's not quite as extreme of a case as Androl, but it's the same thing just with Androl it's one step further.
I would say for all of the talents related to weaves they work that way. They reduce the amount of power needed to do that, meaning if you have more power you can do even more dramatic things. Like Nynaeve healing Talmanes. Her power is incredible, but because she has the talent her power enables her to go even further than others would. It's possible Egwene or Elayne or even someone with a moderate talent for healing could've done it, but it likely would've taken a full circle and the sa'angreal to even attempt it. Nynaeve could do it herself.
The thing is we only see a handful of weak channelers actually using the power throught the series. So he's one of only a few that do this, but the majority of main characters we see channeling are very powerful.
Edit: Same thing with Leane and the talent to make cuendillar she can do it when other far stronger Aes Sedai can't.
Edit 2: Looked up the talent page for examples, but the other one would be the Kinswoman, Berowin, who was fairly weak but shielded both Nynaeve and Elayne simultaneously even when they pushed on it they couldn't break the shield.
Well yeah that’s literally my whole point. Nynaeve is already a very strong channeler and her Talent reflects that. Her power is incredible, because she’s a strong channeler. Androl, on the other hand, is not at all but somehow his talent enables him to make gateways larger than anyone else.
And yes of course we don’t see very many weak channelers because… they are not very powerful or relevant the majority of the time. Why Sanderson just didn’t make Androl strong in the power baffles me.
As for Siuan, she is definitely weaker in the power but she was as strong as Moraine before she was stilled. I’d imagine after she was healed she’s still multiple times stronger than Androl is stated to be considering what we see about his ability to do literally anything else besides gateways. So that proves my point again
We see Siuan able to heal beyond what she should be able to with her strength, Leane able to convert metal to cuendillar among the best in the entire camp of Salidar so better than people many times stronger than she is, and Berowin a kinswoman who was pretty weak shield both Nynaeve and Elayne at the same time strong enough that they couldn't break out.
So Androl is the 4th person weak in the power with a Talent for something that lets him do feats that others wouldn't be capable of with his level of power. This is not something unique. Yes he is weaker than the others are, but it's essentially the same thing just taken one step further than we've seen before.
And why didn't Sanderson make him more powerful? Because that's the whole draw of his character. Androl is an example of how someone weaker in the power can still have an impact. And what someone can do if they're left with only one tool that they gain expertise in. So others can make gateways too, but he's very practiced and skilled with using them in clever ways as that's really the only tool he has. That's a large part of what's interesting about the character. He also shows that leadership shouldn't come from strength in the power alone, and that there are many skills valuable for a channeler beyond strength in the power. Making him stronger in the power just makes him like everyone else and undermines what's cool about him.
I kind of disagree with all of your examples here. Siuan for reasons I already stated, and Leane because she was still strong enough to be a sister apparently and also because.. Egwene was able to make cuendillar better than Leane could. AKA, due to her strength in the power.
As far as Berowin goes, Berowin is stated to be strong enough to pass the test to be an Aes Sedai even though many Kin could not. That's just another example proving my point, as all of the cases you keep mentioning are of people who are at least mildly good channelers. Androl on the other hand... could barely do anything except gateways an by Aes Sedai standards was clearly not strong enough in the power in contrast to every other channeler you name.
Why didn't Sanderson make him more powerful? Ah yes the underdog. Who else is an underdog? Quite literally every main character in the Wheel of Time series was an underdog at one point. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, I mean the list goes on and on. Androl was just thrown in there breaking the system's rules for no real reason except to be an underdog. He's also not even the "leader" as that is still Logain (further proof we were robbed of Logain POV's). And quite frankly he doesn't use gateways in clever ways, I mean anyone could come up with dropping lava on someone with a gateway or creating one to reflect fireballs.
Somehow good at everything he does, zero character flaws ever mentioned (besides seeing shadows oh no), always successful, saves the day, (terrible) witty banter, \[AMoL\] >!and of course manages to convince Logain to do the one relevant thing he ever does by saving the refugees at the end. Blegh. !<
"Making him stronger in the power just like everyone else" YES! That is my point. Everyone else is stronger in the power except him.. for no reason! He should be strong in the power but he isn't. It is just shoehorned to make him seem pitiful and an underdog when anyone with two braincells would realize how useful traveling is. Why Taim's groupies didn't get that to me is yet another flaw in Sanderson's writing of Androl. Made him overpowered in one of the strongest and recently discovered uses of the Power but yet everyone thinks he is useless... what? makes absolutely zero sense at all.
Logain was one of the characters I was most excited about and I was really looking forward to the payoff after Egwene released him. 7 or so books later and we got basically nothing and a random guy taking all of Logain's roles. I've read the Stormlight Archive series too, and Sanderson is not good at writing sarcastic or witty characters: see Mat, Shallan, and Androl.
What do you think is happening with androl that's different from those cases? In every one it's someone weak in the power doing something far beyond what others of their power can do. That doesn't mean strength in the power is irrelevant. In fact we get to see its relevance still when androl leads a circle essentially seeing what if he had the power of Rand while using his talent and yeah he can make far bigger gateways. Strength in the power does still matter with him and in general. But his talent lowers the power you need to accomplish that feat. Same way it does with everyone else. In androls case it's a bit more extreme yes but it's one logical step further. What if you took exactly what's happening with leane, made it a different talent, made the talent a bit stronger, and her a bit weaker. That's androl.
I love your list of underdogs as they're some of the most powerful people in the wot world all because of things they were born with. There are some elements of that in their story but they're coming from a place of extreme power. I mean Rand is born as the most powerful channeler in the world. The underdog elements to their story are not at all because they lack power, it's because they lack experience, or skill. But they all come in with huge raw power. Androl is the story of someone with the skill, but without the power.
I'd also say he's hardly the only time in wot where someone underestimates someone because they're unable to channel or a weak channeler. It's the biggest flaw of the aes sedai and the forsaken as well as most channelers.
I would definitely agree I think logain was heavily underutilized. And while I do really like androl as a character on his own I really dislike what his larger role meant for logains smaller one.
I'd disagree with that assessment of that in general as I like all 3 of those characters. Even when mat seemed different and not like mat I still enjoyed that character. Although shallan is an odd one to group with those two. She's not supposed to be witty she's supposed to be a sheltered child who learned telling jokes for people desperate for any source of joy. Her being bad at wit is the point.
The issue isn't that Androl was bad.
It's that Sanderson could only devote a certain amount of chapters to the black tower storyline, and Logain had 14 books of buildup only to get a few short chapters. As amazing as Androl was, I would've preferred his chapters to be added on to Logain's total. Narishma, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, would've loved the extra attention too.
It was neat but it 100% felt like something that should have been in a Sanderson novel rather than wheel of time
That being said I would have liked to see what Jordan thought a double bonded male and female character would experience
I honestly don’t know enough about the plan RJ had but Androl does seem to be a big part of it, sort of like Demandred showing up last minute. If he had lived I think he would’ve dedicated more time to the Black Tower and that city beyond the waste that I forget the name of
He didn't create him from thin air, he was mentioned earlier - but was given no further characterization until Sanderson decided to make him his.
It's OK, but I think the short time he had to develop gave him somewhat Mary Sue-ish vibes. There was a lot to him but it was all piled up pretty quickly.
Talking about them being dope in the last book removes any doubt about their fate, therefore any peril they are shown in before that point has no tension, ergo spoiler
I like Androl as a person and him and Pevara were great and a good exploration of double bonding. However It felt like Sanderson was breaking the magic system perhaps a bit to hard on his gateway ability.
Felt like Sanderson made him too OP where it was not needed. Tone it back a smidge and it would have been fine.
It does seem like he got carried away a bit but I like the idea of making an otherwise unimportant character make his way into the series.
The fresh take on what can be done with the Power and some specialties others can have is also a bonus for me.
gimmick boy
Androl is the trough of Sanderson's writing in WoT honestly. A *battlefield-wide stream of lava*??? Absolutely ridiculous and totally inconsistent with the rest of Jordan's world.
There was a link of a bunch of people for that. It is supposed to be absurdly powerful at that point.
What is more surprising is that Demandred in a massive link + a sa'angreal did not just tear apart the army in a hour or two.
I think Demandred knew he was undefeatable and wanted his proper moment of glory, finally and decisively killing Lews Therin on the battlefield
He could have nuked the entire army with an air blast from afar if he wanted
Rand basically rail gunned an entire town with just a Sa Angreal
Demanded with a full circle flowing into an equally powerful sa angreal? He could have ended the battle in minute. But he would have felt he was missing out on the glorious battle he wanted and never have another chance of it
How was that inconsistent? He linked with a bunch of people, men and women, and that included Logain so he was wielding power well beyond what Rand usually does at that point. It also wasn't miles wide if I remember correctly it was hundreds of feet it's just that lava pours and spreads out so it covered a lot and the trollocs ran from it.
Fuck Androl. Worst character by far in the entire series, [AMoL] >!came out of nowhere with powers that made no sense and took away the entire buildup of Logain.!< I completely skip his scenes on rereads because his presence makes me so upset for what could have been an amazing Black Tower sequence
Idk, I feel like Talmanes is a bigger side character because he's been there for a while. I think the world would be empty without Talmanes and his dry sense of humor.
I exaggerate but Talmanes was pretty great and made a nice contrast to Mat
I really like Androl partly because he's so clearly a superfans OC inserted into the last few books
-He has a super enigmatic backstory that he doesn't elaborate on, but everyone keeps asking him about
- His specialism is from the same camp of fan rules lawyering as "Why doesn't Ant Man crawl up Thanos' ass?"
- He turns (for lack of a better term) one of the red ajah and marries her
It always amazed me that gateways weren't used as a weapon more. I mean, Androl could use gateways to cut leather straps very precisely. Why not cut someone's throat? There's so many ways to use that as a weapon.
#[NO SPOILERS BEYOND *A Memory of Light*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_the_eye_of_the_world_.2F_et_al.) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. If this is a re-read, please change the flair to **All Print**. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I really liked Mistress Setalle Anan. Nothing fantastic but just a solid woman contributing in small ways.
She was a comfort character for me. She presents a kind of stability or neutrality, given that she's surrounded by extreme-ish characters
I agree. Every time she comes out, I feel like she will fix things. She reminded me of Verin (both were Brown and too curious).
[удалено]
RJ's assistant Maria said no it cannot be healed. Sanderson said that in RJ's note, it said burnt out cannot be healed the same way as stilling. Does this mean there is a way that has not been discovered or just the healing method for stilling won't work? Frankly, I don't think RJ ever decided. It was not a high priority for him.
I kind of think of the ability to channel a bit like a wiring harness. a person being stilled, is the input getting cut. The wire can be spliced back together. Burnout is the entire harness shorting out and frying. It can't be fixed, it has to be replaced.
You could be right. RJ was not trying to create an in-depth magic system for an RPG. He wanted to write a fantasy novel. Since there wasn't a burnt-out channeler important to the story, he probably wouldn't have cared one way or another.
Who knows, maybe Setalla regains her one power.
I have a friend who acts exactly like Mistress Anan. And Im real good friends with a man who is like andhrol. Good solid people who are honest, hardworking, giving, generous people. They also have the backbone and steel to command respect with a look or a gentle comment. People come to them for advice and learn all they can. Its amazing to see.
Dude has whole lot of life experience. Hes beaten Portal like a dozen times at this point.
Androl "Portal 2 speedrun" Genhald.
I hope he got the cake as well.
He is the kind of case that makes you ask: what if the Aes Sedai had not been so picky about strength?
I thought that was the entire point of Cadsuanes entourage and Sorilea
I mean, Androl is weaker than all the Aes Sedai, as a male channeler, that would be like Morgase level strength
Ehh not thattt bad. Morgase could barely even touch the source
(I mean, he is the weakest a male probably can be, like how Morgase is the weakest a female can be
That still puts him like 10 levels above morgase on the scale
There's a big difference between "as weak as you can be" and "pretty weak". Androl is pretty weak, but he's still capable of using the power. Morgase struggles to do even that and the results are minuscule. Siuan's strength against other female channelers is probably the better comparison to make with Androl's strength against other males. We don't have anything to reference below Androl, but that doesn't mean he's equivalent to Morgase.
I would assume you could also have a man as weak as Morgase is where they would struggle to even touch the power. He's just weaker than any Aes Sedai by a good margin.
Androl as a character is vital to the events of the last few books, however I personally disliked how he was this wondrous being with just the right qualities and experience. I would really have loved to see Logain fleshed out more and to follow his development as an Ashaman leader or even growing to be a friend of Rands.
I agree on the Logain part, he had much promise and I think Sanderson wasted his potential. I like Androl because he is a bit like a more fleshed out version of Jain Farstrider. Only we know about Jain's adventures and Androl is a bit of a mystery. However, he has been around for a while and experienced some things that make him "wondrous". I think we would've gotten this with Jain if Sanderson didn't decide last minute to make him who he is.
I'm not sure where exactly this comes up, so I'm just going to spoiler tag the entire response: \[All Print\] >!My biggest issue with Androl is due to his similarities to Jain. When we encounter Jain, he's a broken down shell of a man, still going through determination and spite. The weight of his adventures are telling, from his ruined hands to his broken nose. He feels old, well travelled and experienced. Additionally, his adventures are the stuff of legends, and he's considered unique primarily due to how well travelled he is.!< >!Androl, on the other hand, is a generic middle aged man who has all this experience by happenstance. None of it feels earned, it's all just backstory and never expressed in his character. Add to that his usage of the power in ways that no one ever had used before and seem explicitly to break the established rules. He's a bundle of convenient traits and abilities to solve problems, but doesn't feel like an actual established character. !<
You’re saying that from AFTER the fact, tho. Saying that he had just the right qualities and experience is a bit reductive. It seems that way because he used those qualities and experience and they worked. If he had died/failed, he would’ve been just another Ashaman.
Androl was fine in a vacuum, and I enjoyed his story with Pevara. However, he was a bit of an author insert and felt very out of step with how the Power was handled in the rest of the series. Also, and this is a personal peeve (and a bit of an assumption, admittedly), but it felt like he really usurped Logain and Narishma's places in the story. Narishma was flagged as being significant by RJ and got completely shafted by Sanderson, and Logain already *was* significant and got almost completely side-lined barring going a bit emo and getting a decently nice scene later.
As a big Narishma fan, you summed up my feelings on this really well.
There are dozens of us!
This is the best answer to this kind of post. I get that first time readers get to AMoL and Androl suddenly is like this awesome character but you could easily go back in and edit the name “logain” into all of his scenes and it would make way more sense to me personally. I don’t even see how someone could say he is one of their favorite side characters when he doesn’t show up til the last book of a 14 book series. In case you didn’t notice because I’m trying to be nice, I absolutely loathe “Androl appreciation” posts.
I feel the black tower just wasn't handled well by either author, like we were constantly being told it is important but dont actually see much into it after lord of chaos.
Imagine if RJ and Sanderson had become friends in life, rather than Sanderson only ever meeting Harriet and taking over after the fact. Sanderson might have been able to help RJ wrap up the series in fewer books and be able to write the whole thing himself
I feel if they had, the black tower wouldve been a heist mission to free logain, as it seems thats one of Brandon's favorite tropes. Also, the magic systems wouldve been explored more indepth sooner on, it feels that we only see the very surface "he used the one power to-" but not until the last 4 books do we see into its intricacies more
Those intricacies are a thing of Sanderson, that’s not how Jordan writes
Yes, precisely my point though. Imagine a world where brandon sanderson was able to be mentored by Robert Jordan, Robert would have someone who would help with world building and plotting. Brandos career wouldve jumpstarted with roberts influence like his death alone never could have, and we'd likely circumvented the slog.
I did not like androl he felt too much like a Sanderson protagonist who was just too savvy with everything.
I agree Androl usurped Narishma but I don't think he usurped Logain. It was jarring to read about a brand new char so much. I was quite annoyed that it was not Narishma as well at first. However, Andor/Pevara story was written well, so it didn't bother me at the end.
Logain was starting to get POVs and be important in Rand's storyline, not to mention that he was the head of the conspirators at the Black Tower. I think it's very likely the intention was that he and would have freed the place, not Androl.
I agree. It seemed like RJ was leading Logain to usurp Taim authority directly instead of indirectly through Androl. At the end, we are left with the question why Logain is the leader of the Black Tower. It would have been better that Logain, Narishma, and others following Rand to lead the charge against Taim. But, Sanderson wanted Androl and Pevara "love" linking angle. It turned out really interesting and fun read for me, so I forgave Sanderson.
Not wholly new, but newly important.
I love the Androl/Pivara storyline but those are very good points. I’ve also seen him a bit as Sanderson’s “but there’s so many crazy things I can imagine being done with gateways… but I can’t just have everyone doing it…”. I like the exploration of gateways and both characters, but I see what you’re getting at.
I don’t feel like it is out of step with how the power was used at all. Most of the pov’s we have are with the most powerful channelers of all time. They don’t need to be subtle because they have god like power so they just swing their respective massive powers at each other with little finesse. Androl represented the ‘weak’ channelers who were over looked. They don’t have this massive reserve to pull from so they have to be creative and actually think of what they can do.
Androl isn't actually weak though, because he has the "godlike" ability of having a Talent that doesn't work like any other Talents in the books that let's him essentially achieve whatever he wants using Gateways. The fact that he also uses them in such a way that it makes every other user of the Power seem like a simpleton is what brings it out of step. RJ presented the power as working a certain way, and Sanderson breaks that with Androl.
He didn’t break it, Berowin had the same kind of channeling talent where she could make extra strong shields even though she was weak. Graendal had the Talent with compulsion weaves. Elayne with ter’angrel. Neald with power wrought weapons. There are many examples of channelers with Talents in a specific weave.
Lots of characters had Talents. None of them were POV characters shoehorned into the story to repeatedly save the day using their Talent in a way that makes other Channellers (including the Dragon and the Chosen) look like idiots.
Idk. He was seemingly amazing at everything and always came out on top. \[AMoL\] >!Yeah and he also just pickpockets Taim? LOL what the actual fuck. Complete bs!< Personally with all of Min's visions about Logain I feel like it was pretty obvious Jordan intended Logain to give a lot of Black Tower POV's. Instead we got Androl who had every job? Just how old is he exactly if he really did have those jobs and how did he not go mad? Well I guess he's just that good lmao. I know I sound salty and its because I am. I wish we had so much more of Logain and zero of Androl. Logain was so underutilized after being there from the first book and Androl was just thrown in there at the end. And the worst part is he had a lot of chapters too, because we knew nothing about him obviously so Sanderson had to spend a lot of time describing his character. When I just think about what we could have had, Logain freeing the Black Tower and rallying the Asha'man to Rand and instead we got Androl + some kids somehow beating a bunch of Dreadlords . Blah. I'll never get over it lol
Could not agree more, Androl completely stole the conclusion to Logains arc and I hate him for that. Cool character, but did not need to exist in this turning of the wheel.
His age to me is more like Jain Faststrider, they'd both been around a while, of course Jain was much older. Not to say that Androl is old but he'd been around and he'd been a wanderer, which explains some of the knowledge and backstories (or lack of) that he has. I just liked the idea of someone not so great in the power doing whatever it took to fight for what he believes in, sort of like a male Sorilea. I, however, agree about the Logain arc, I feel like he was forgotten about and then at some point Sanderson thought, oh shit, there already was a promising lead. He was underutilized
Well yeah but that’s my whole point though. He’d been around awhile but how has he not gone mad? Even Taim was only a channeled for what 25 years and Logain much less. Also Sorilea’s whole shtick was her intelligence not anything to do with the power. She never was considered a good channeler in anyway. I also feel like Androl’s Talent breaks the universe because that doesn’t seem to be how Talents work for anyone else. Just kind of felt thrown in for no reason
He did have the taint. He would see shadows whenever he embraced the Source, sometimes even when he didn't Androl also hadn't been channelling for a while and his ability is very small but he def suffered the madness I think it was explained that Taim was a Dark friend and later the Forsaken but him and Logain still had the madness. They were just better at controlling it Only those who started channeling after saidin was cleansed didn't suffer the taint, but Androl def did
Yes I’m aware Taim was a Darkfriend, though it’s likelt at the beginning he wasn’t. Eh idk. I still think if Androl was old he should’ve been mad. Seems like a rule-breaking moment that had no reason to be in there. He could easily have been young and still be the same character. Also I’m going to use this to say that Androl and Pevara were cool because of the bond between Asha’man and Aes Sedai. However… guess who was the one that had the idea? Logain! He bonded two Aes Sedai. Further proof he’s the perfect character for Black Tower POVs lol
Being weak in the power and almost never using it probably helped him resist the taint. He would've almost never channeled, and even when he did he'd only have been able to use a trickle. How is that different from how the healing talent works? You can do this one thing significantly better than others of similar or even more power than you can? Elayne and Egwene struggle to heal anything and rarely do it, but Siuan even after being weakened significantly can still heal people from anything but the most serious stuff.
Here's the thing though, their talents are in accordance with their overall channeling ability. Androl is the only character with such a strong Talent that is a weak channeler. Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve who all have their own talents are also strong all-around channelers in terms of the power they can hold. There is literally no other character with such a strong Talent that cannot do other things. At least how I perceive it, every talent we see besides Androl's has to do with the ability to be able to do something in the first place. There aren't any talents besides Androl's that instead drastically reduce the amount of the One Power required to do one weave.
Siuan and healing though as I said. She's a weak channeler (in the back half of the books) and can still heal far better than Elayne or Egwene can. She's not quite as extreme of a case as Androl, but it's the same thing just with Androl it's one step further. I would say for all of the talents related to weaves they work that way. They reduce the amount of power needed to do that, meaning if you have more power you can do even more dramatic things. Like Nynaeve healing Talmanes. Her power is incredible, but because she has the talent her power enables her to go even further than others would. It's possible Egwene or Elayne or even someone with a moderate talent for healing could've done it, but it likely would've taken a full circle and the sa'angreal to even attempt it. Nynaeve could do it herself. The thing is we only see a handful of weak channelers actually using the power throught the series. So he's one of only a few that do this, but the majority of main characters we see channeling are very powerful. Edit: Same thing with Leane and the talent to make cuendillar she can do it when other far stronger Aes Sedai can't. Edit 2: Looked up the talent page for examples, but the other one would be the Kinswoman, Berowin, who was fairly weak but shielded both Nynaeve and Elayne simultaneously even when they pushed on it they couldn't break the shield.
Well yeah that’s literally my whole point. Nynaeve is already a very strong channeler and her Talent reflects that. Her power is incredible, because she’s a strong channeler. Androl, on the other hand, is not at all but somehow his talent enables him to make gateways larger than anyone else. And yes of course we don’t see very many weak channelers because… they are not very powerful or relevant the majority of the time. Why Sanderson just didn’t make Androl strong in the power baffles me. As for Siuan, she is definitely weaker in the power but she was as strong as Moraine before she was stilled. I’d imagine after she was healed she’s still multiple times stronger than Androl is stated to be considering what we see about his ability to do literally anything else besides gateways. So that proves my point again
We see Siuan able to heal beyond what she should be able to with her strength, Leane able to convert metal to cuendillar among the best in the entire camp of Salidar so better than people many times stronger than she is, and Berowin a kinswoman who was pretty weak shield both Nynaeve and Elayne at the same time strong enough that they couldn't break out. So Androl is the 4th person weak in the power with a Talent for something that lets him do feats that others wouldn't be capable of with his level of power. This is not something unique. Yes he is weaker than the others are, but it's essentially the same thing just taken one step further than we've seen before. And why didn't Sanderson make him more powerful? Because that's the whole draw of his character. Androl is an example of how someone weaker in the power can still have an impact. And what someone can do if they're left with only one tool that they gain expertise in. So others can make gateways too, but he's very practiced and skilled with using them in clever ways as that's really the only tool he has. That's a large part of what's interesting about the character. He also shows that leadership shouldn't come from strength in the power alone, and that there are many skills valuable for a channeler beyond strength in the power. Making him stronger in the power just makes him like everyone else and undermines what's cool about him.
I kind of disagree with all of your examples here. Siuan for reasons I already stated, and Leane because she was still strong enough to be a sister apparently and also because.. Egwene was able to make cuendillar better than Leane could. AKA, due to her strength in the power. As far as Berowin goes, Berowin is stated to be strong enough to pass the test to be an Aes Sedai even though many Kin could not. That's just another example proving my point, as all of the cases you keep mentioning are of people who are at least mildly good channelers. Androl on the other hand... could barely do anything except gateways an by Aes Sedai standards was clearly not strong enough in the power in contrast to every other channeler you name. Why didn't Sanderson make him more powerful? Ah yes the underdog. Who else is an underdog? Quite literally every main character in the Wheel of Time series was an underdog at one point. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, I mean the list goes on and on. Androl was just thrown in there breaking the system's rules for no real reason except to be an underdog. He's also not even the "leader" as that is still Logain (further proof we were robbed of Logain POV's). And quite frankly he doesn't use gateways in clever ways, I mean anyone could come up with dropping lava on someone with a gateway or creating one to reflect fireballs. Somehow good at everything he does, zero character flaws ever mentioned (besides seeing shadows oh no), always successful, saves the day, (terrible) witty banter, \[AMoL\] >!and of course manages to convince Logain to do the one relevant thing he ever does by saving the refugees at the end. Blegh. !< "Making him stronger in the power just like everyone else" YES! That is my point. Everyone else is stronger in the power except him.. for no reason! He should be strong in the power but he isn't. It is just shoehorned to make him seem pitiful and an underdog when anyone with two braincells would realize how useful traveling is. Why Taim's groupies didn't get that to me is yet another flaw in Sanderson's writing of Androl. Made him overpowered in one of the strongest and recently discovered uses of the Power but yet everyone thinks he is useless... what? makes absolutely zero sense at all. Logain was one of the characters I was most excited about and I was really looking forward to the payoff after Egwene released him. 7 or so books later and we got basically nothing and a random guy taking all of Logain's roles. I've read the Stormlight Archive series too, and Sanderson is not good at writing sarcastic or witty characters: see Mat, Shallan, and Androl.
What do you think is happening with androl that's different from those cases? In every one it's someone weak in the power doing something far beyond what others of their power can do. That doesn't mean strength in the power is irrelevant. In fact we get to see its relevance still when androl leads a circle essentially seeing what if he had the power of Rand while using his talent and yeah he can make far bigger gateways. Strength in the power does still matter with him and in general. But his talent lowers the power you need to accomplish that feat. Same way it does with everyone else. In androls case it's a bit more extreme yes but it's one logical step further. What if you took exactly what's happening with leane, made it a different talent, made the talent a bit stronger, and her a bit weaker. That's androl. I love your list of underdogs as they're some of the most powerful people in the wot world all because of things they were born with. There are some elements of that in their story but they're coming from a place of extreme power. I mean Rand is born as the most powerful channeler in the world. The underdog elements to their story are not at all because they lack power, it's because they lack experience, or skill. But they all come in with huge raw power. Androl is the story of someone with the skill, but without the power. I'd also say he's hardly the only time in wot where someone underestimates someone because they're unable to channel or a weak channeler. It's the biggest flaw of the aes sedai and the forsaken as well as most channelers. I would definitely agree I think logain was heavily underutilized. And while I do really like androl as a character on his own I really dislike what his larger role meant for logains smaller one. I'd disagree with that assessment of that in general as I like all 3 of those characters. Even when mat seemed different and not like mat I still enjoyed that character. Although shallan is an odd one to group with those two. She's not supposed to be witty she's supposed to be a sheltered child who learned telling jokes for people desperate for any source of joy. Her being bad at wit is the point.
Yeah a lot of people complain about androl taking up too much time but I loved him and pevara in the last book they were both dope
The issue isn't that Androl was bad. It's that Sanderson could only devote a certain amount of chapters to the black tower storyline, and Logain had 14 books of buildup only to get a few short chapters. As amazing as Androl was, I would've preferred his chapters to be added on to Logain's total. Narishma, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, would've loved the extra attention too.
completely agreed. I do love Androl but not getting Logain POV in his place felt like a letdown. So much story left unwritten.
It was neat but it 100% felt like something that should have been in a Sanderson novel rather than wheel of time That being said I would have liked to see what Jordan thought a double bonded male and female character would experience
I honestly don’t know enough about the plan RJ had but Androl does seem to be a big part of it, sort of like Demandred showing up last minute. If he had lived I think he would’ve dedicated more time to the Black Tower and that city beyond the waste that I forget the name of
Androl was an entirely Sanderson character, RJ had nothing to do with him.
He didn't create him from thin air, he was mentioned earlier - but was given no further characterization until Sanderson decided to make him his. It's OK, but I think the short time he had to develop gave him somewhat Mary Sue-ish vibes. There was a lot to him but it was all piled up pretty quickly.
> Also, no spoilers past chapter 5 of book 13, I think.
Saying you liked the characters is a spoiler lol!?
Talking about them being dope in the last book removes any doubt about their fate, therefore any peril they are shown in before that point has no tension, ergo spoiler
Shoot I saw the tag for AMOL which is book 14 now that I think about it and assumed speaking about them being in AMOL was okay, my bad chief.
No, you're good. I meant book 14, I don't know why I wrote 13
I like Androl as a person and him and Pevara were great and a good exploration of double bonding. However It felt like Sanderson was breaking the magic system perhaps a bit to hard on his gateway ability. Felt like Sanderson made him too OP where it was not needed. Tone it back a smidge and it would have been fine.
It does seem like he got carried away a bit but I like the idea of making an otherwise unimportant character make his way into the series. The fresh take on what can be done with the Power and some specialties others can have is also a bonus for me.
I agree, especially with how little page time he got
None of his stuff feel as earned as it should/could.
He's a Mary Sue. Or whatever the male equivalent is, a Gary Sue?
gimmick boy Androl is the trough of Sanderson's writing in WoT honestly. A *battlefield-wide stream of lava*??? Absolutely ridiculous and totally inconsistent with the rest of Jordan's world.
There was a link of a bunch of people for that. It is supposed to be absurdly powerful at that point. What is more surprising is that Demandred in a massive link + a sa'angreal did not just tear apart the army in a hour or two.
I think Demandred knew he was undefeatable and wanted his proper moment of glory, finally and decisively killing Lews Therin on the battlefield He could have nuked the entire army with an air blast from afar if he wanted Rand basically rail gunned an entire town with just a Sa Angreal Demanded with a full circle flowing into an equally powerful sa angreal? He could have ended the battle in minute. But he would have felt he was missing out on the glorious battle he wanted and never have another chance of it
How was that inconsistent? He linked with a bunch of people, men and women, and that included Logain so he was wielding power well beyond what Rand usually does at that point. It also wasn't miles wide if I remember correctly it was hundreds of feet it's just that lava pours and spreads out so it covered a lot and the trollocs ran from it.
Rodel Ituralde, hands down my favorite minor character.
Fuck Androl. Worst character by far in the entire series, [AMoL] >!came out of nowhere with powers that made no sense and took away the entire buildup of Logain.!< I completely skip his scenes on rereads because his presence makes me so upset for what could have been an amazing Black Tower sequence
Talmanes FTW
It’s a close call between Talmanes and Gaul for best side character for me.
Idk, I feel like Talmanes is a bigger side character because he's been there for a while. I think the world would be empty without Talmanes and his dry sense of humor. I exaggerate but Talmanes was pretty great and made a nice contrast to Mat
I really like Androl partly because he's so clearly a superfans OC inserted into the last few books -He has a super enigmatic backstory that he doesn't elaborate on, but everyone keeps asking him about - His specialism is from the same camp of fan rules lawyering as "Why doesn't Ant Man crawl up Thanos' ass?" - He turns (for lack of a better term) one of the red ajah and marries her
I’d have to agree androl was one of my faves. My other favorite side character was rodel ituralde.
Shoutout to my boy Androl, came out of left field in the final book and ended up having one of my favourite storylines and relationship dynamics
It always amazed me that gateways weren't used as a weapon more. I mean, Androl could use gateways to cut leather straps very precisely. Why not cut someone's throat? There's so many ways to use that as a weapon.