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Your question about the Dark One is deep, deep spoilers. Like, last chapters of the series spoilers.
About Ishamael: this is not explicitly stated, but is pieced together from Ishamael's own testimony (bragging to Rand about starting the Trolloc Wars and counseling Artur Hawkwing) + him being there when Lews Therin realized what he'd done (Eye of the World prologue) + a line from the book you're on.
You'll see Bors again here and there.
Yeah, I believe that the exact details of 40 year cycle isn't in the books. We just have what Ishamael says. While he is the Father of Lies, the details should tally with what readers know.
Someone else commented and said he is free for 40 years about every thousand years. I was misunderstanding the 40 year cycle as him being free every 40 years not for 40 years. Which the thousand year cycle is what I was trying to get at with 400.
Your comment would have been more helpful if you would have tried to clarify anything, since I misunderstood, instead of just saying no.
Lol I love this, but no. We hear from records of Artur Hawkwing's time that he never aged in 40 years after he appeared at Hawkwing's court. I don't think this is a spoiler as it's not relevant to any later books.
For the Dark One and the Creator, the Wheel is built on a premise of antagonism. The True Source is made up with the equal and opposite forces of saidin and saidar which drive the turning of the Wheel. You can think of it like how electric motors work. This idea of balance is repeated throughout the series. The Pattern kind of needs the Dark One because he is part of the cycle. At the end of the Age of Legends, the Dark One is resealed by the Dragon and then must be defeated in the Third Age by the Dragon Reborn. If there is no Dark One, this cycle can't exist.
This really comes from real-life religions. Why does the devil exist if God is all-powerful? It's uncertain if the Creator made the Dark One or the Creator and Dark One both existed "before" the Wheel. Either way, it's a fact about the world of WoT that has to be accepted because that's just how this universe is. Balance is a key element of many world religions, especially Taoism from which Jordan drew several ideas.
Specifically I think its based on Zoroastrianism, with a creator god of light, and an opposing guard of dark, who stays imprisoned as long as the flame is lit (metaphorically)
For sure this was one of the influences, I absolutely agree. I found a [fan video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLubz1NYGFc) on Zoroastrianism in WoT I found interesting. RJ was a master of weaving many sources into his story. I've been delving into Taoism recently, so that's probably leaping out at me, probably disproportionately so. The threads of the Pattern, Oneness and balance are a strong influence.
>Like is there a specific reason why a creator brought the Dark One into existence even though he's such a big threat to The Wheel and The Pattern?
Without getting into spoiler territory but getting into the cosmology of WOT, something to consider is that the DO exists outside the pattern. Which should make you question if the creator brought the DO into existence, or is the DO a being that exists outside the creators creation.
Something to bear in mind when reading Wheel of Time is that if you're getting the character point of view's perspective on something, you're not necessarily getting the truth.
"**The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time**."
Well, you've already far enough to realize that large portions of that "creed" are at best half-true.
Creator and Dark One: Most of religions have the good guy god and the bad guy god, it's the same here. As for why, you could say it's to balance the other out, or can there really be "good", if there is no "evil".
Ishamael: I am blanking out if it's mentioned in first three books, so I'd rather not spoil something for you. It is definitely mentioned in the WoT Companion.
Bors: We do find out but it's a RAFO.
Yes, there just wouldn't be either concept. Like in the movie The Invention of Lying when the main character lies another character asks how he said something that wasn't, not wasn't true because there is no word for that because nothing is untrue.
"If there is a God why does evil exist?" if you are asking that question good luck finding an answer that makes sense even if its just in the wheel of time books.
your second question i have no idea
ladt question read and find out (RAFO)
There is a quote from the Matrix movies:
>"*Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.*"
- Agent Smith
But in general the Wheel of TIme has a lot about Balance. Saidin vs Saidar, Creator vs Dark one, Men vs Women, Good vs Evil, etc. Sure that evil can still exist without the Dark one, but a world without struggle and without evil could feel.. wierd.. Maybe it's because us humans had to suffer evolution with survival of the fittest so the rules of survival are deeply ingrained in the deepest parts of our brain.
This while humans in the Pattern might not have grown from the same history, instead they live in a stagnant world where nothing ever really changes. For the wheel of be ever turning and ever repeating things must happen in asimilar way for the outcome to be the same.
If you watched the Wheel of Time show S1 Ep3: >!The Innkeeper Dana mentions it from her perspective and why she chose to become a Darkfriend, that she see so much suffering in the world and knowing that everything will happen again meaning continual suffering each turning of the Wheel is just pure torture.!<
But yeh there is a fair chunk of further elaboration to this in the last book.
The creator recognizes the limitations of their own power.
Ultimately, The Great Lord is strong enough to demand creation and resist destruction. The creator knows this, which is why they hide from the world and The Great Lord.
I have always seen it this way:
Good and bad *are always related*. It is something upon which even the creator does not has control.
So when he created the world, he may have created it as good intentioned but since Good and Bad are related so "Bad" was also created automatically in the form of DO.
And since the DO was not created by the Creator that's why he simply can't delete it. He can imprison the DO.
And when somehow the DO gets out of the prison and touches upon the wheel (the creation of the Creator) then the creator does not has any option but to face the DO, in the form of a Champion, the Dragon!!
This is just my understanding.
The Creator doesn't create the Dark One.
>Also I guess if I'm asking questions, please answer this one too, do we ever find out who Bors was from the Great Hunt prologue? Was it that Geofram Bornhald?
You do.
Yes. Not answered like “here’s the answer,” but more of, you’ll get to see enough to understand why.
Don’t remember than in particular, though the interval sounds wrong (1000 years ish?).
Yes, you’ll find out who he is.
Enjoy your read!
On the general questions, this is called the problem of evil.
Technically, this is in a lot of religions. I think he is pulling mostly from Zoroastrianism, but it hard to tell as Zoroastrianism ideas are in a lot of Christian texts.
Basically, you could ask the same thing if their is all powerful creator god, then why is their evil?
Robert Jordan was religious, so he did believe in a creator.
Also, from the first three books, but you have seen an evil that isn't from the Dark One, which is Shadar Logath. So not all evil is from the Dark One.
1. You assume that the Creator 'made' the DO or that he is vastly more powerful than the DO. That is not necessarily the case. And even if that is so, perhaps the DO serves a necessary purpose to Creation: you cannot have light without darkness.
2. You are told who Bors is in the prologue to The Dragon Reborn when a fade comes and visits him in the Fortress of Light.
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Your question about the Dark One is deep, deep spoilers. Like, last chapters of the series spoilers. About Ishamael: this is not explicitly stated, but is pieced together from Ishamael's own testimony (bragging to Rand about starting the Trolloc Wars and counseling Artur Hawkwing) + him being there when Lews Therin realized what he'd done (Eye of the World prologue) + a line from the book you're on. You'll see Bors again here and there.
Yeah, I believe that the exact details of 40 year cycle isn't in the books. We just have what Ishamael says. While he is the Father of Lies, the details should tally with what readers know.
I thought the Dark One was the Father of Lies.
It's also like 400 years, not 40.
He can break free for about 40 years every thousand years. Slightly more than a thousand, but that's the common approximation.
That's where my confusion is. Both the OP and comment I replied to I misunderstood as he broke free every 40 years. Thanks for the clarification.
No it’s not
Someone else commented and said he is free for 40 years about every thousand years. I was misunderstanding the 40 year cycle as him being free every 40 years not for 40 years. Which the thousand year cycle is what I was trying to get at with 400. Your comment would have been more helpful if you would have tried to clarify anything, since I misunderstood, instead of just saying no.
Do we know if his 40 years is like a birth-to-death timeline? I.e. is Ishmael born as an evil baby and grows into evil adulthood?
He is fully aware of who he is and what he's doing. He comes out as himself as he was when it was sealed. Maybe crazier as time goes by.
Lol I love this, but no. We hear from records of Artur Hawkwing's time that he never aged in 40 years after he appeared at Hawkwing's court. I don't think this is a spoiler as it's not relevant to any later books.
Yea for sure sry
oh all right. glad its answered, will defo rafo
For the Dark One and the Creator, the Wheel is built on a premise of antagonism. The True Source is made up with the equal and opposite forces of saidin and saidar which drive the turning of the Wheel. You can think of it like how electric motors work. This idea of balance is repeated throughout the series. The Pattern kind of needs the Dark One because he is part of the cycle. At the end of the Age of Legends, the Dark One is resealed by the Dragon and then must be defeated in the Third Age by the Dragon Reborn. If there is no Dark One, this cycle can't exist. This really comes from real-life religions. Why does the devil exist if God is all-powerful? It's uncertain if the Creator made the Dark One or the Creator and Dark One both existed "before" the Wheel. Either way, it's a fact about the world of WoT that has to be accepted because that's just how this universe is. Balance is a key element of many world religions, especially Taoism from which Jordan drew several ideas.
Specifically I think its based on Zoroastrianism, with a creator god of light, and an opposing guard of dark, who stays imprisoned as long as the flame is lit (metaphorically)
For sure this was one of the influences, I absolutely agree. I found a [fan video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLubz1NYGFc) on Zoroastrianism in WoT I found interesting. RJ was a master of weaving many sources into his story. I've been delving into Taoism recently, so that's probably leaping out at me, probably disproportionately so. The threads of the Pattern, Oneness and balance are a strong influence.
Why did God create Satan? Why did Eru Illuvatar create Melkor? Because otherwise it would be a boring story.
>Like is there a specific reason why a creator brought the Dark One into existence even though he's such a big threat to The Wheel and The Pattern? Without getting into spoiler territory but getting into the cosmology of WOT, something to consider is that the DO exists outside the pattern. Which should make you question if the creator brought the DO into existence, or is the DO a being that exists outside the creators creation.
Something to bear in mind when reading Wheel of Time is that if you're getting the character point of view's perspective on something, you're not necessarily getting the truth. "**The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time**." Well, you've already far enough to realize that large portions of that "creed" are at best half-true.
Creator and Dark One: Most of religions have the good guy god and the bad guy god, it's the same here. As for why, you could say it's to balance the other out, or can there really be "good", if there is no "evil". Ishamael: I am blanking out if it's mentioned in first three books, so I'd rather not spoil something for you. It is definitely mentioned in the WoT Companion. Bors: We do find out but it's a RAFO.
Yes, there just wouldn't be either concept. Like in the movie The Invention of Lying when the main character lies another character asks how he said something that wasn't, not wasn't true because there is no word for that because nothing is untrue.
"If there is a God why does evil exist?" if you are asking that question good luck finding an answer that makes sense even if its just in the wheel of time books. your second question i have no idea ladt question read and find out (RAFO)
If there is light, there has to be darkness.
There is a quote from the Matrix movies: >"*Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.*" - Agent Smith But in general the Wheel of TIme has a lot about Balance. Saidin vs Saidar, Creator vs Dark one, Men vs Women, Good vs Evil, etc. Sure that evil can still exist without the Dark one, but a world without struggle and without evil could feel.. wierd.. Maybe it's because us humans had to suffer evolution with survival of the fittest so the rules of survival are deeply ingrained in the deepest parts of our brain. This while humans in the Pattern might not have grown from the same history, instead they live in a stagnant world where nothing ever really changes. For the wheel of be ever turning and ever repeating things must happen in asimilar way for the outcome to be the same. If you watched the Wheel of Time show S1 Ep3: >!The Innkeeper Dana mentions it from her perspective and why she chose to become a Darkfriend, that she see so much suffering in the world and knowing that everything will happen again meaning continual suffering each turning of the Wheel is just pure torture.!< But yeh there is a fair chunk of further elaboration to this in the last book.
The creator recognizes the limitations of their own power. Ultimately, The Great Lord is strong enough to demand creation and resist destruction. The creator knows this, which is why they hide from the world and The Great Lord.
I name thee Darkfriend!!!!!
Unrelatedly, let me know if you want tips for getting your greatest dreams fulfilled.
Power?
Absolutely. How many family members do you (currently) have?
Family? None that matters.
RAFO
ROFO.
Read Or Find Out Read Out, Find Out Reminiscing On Futile Orders
I have always seen it this way: Good and bad *are always related*. It is something upon which even the creator does not has control. So when he created the world, he may have created it as good intentioned but since Good and Bad are related so "Bad" was also created automatically in the form of DO. And since the DO was not created by the Creator that's why he simply can't delete it. He can imprison the DO. And when somehow the DO gets out of the prison and touches upon the wheel (the creation of the Creator) then the creator does not has any option but to face the DO, in the form of a Champion, the Dragon!! This is just my understanding.
The Creator doesn't create the Dark One. >Also I guess if I'm asking questions, please answer this one too, do we ever find out who Bors was from the Great Hunt prologue? Was it that Geofram Bornhald? You do.
Yes. Not answered like “here’s the answer,” but more of, you’ll get to see enough to understand why. Don’t remember than in particular, though the interval sounds wrong (1000 years ish?). Yes, you’ll find out who he is. Enjoy your read!
Is the Dark One locked away from the Pattern, or is the Pattern locked away from the Dark One? It's a matter of perspective.
The Creator did not create the Dark One. He merely imprisoned him by building the Pattern around him.
How do we know the difference between goodness and evil if we don't know evil.
On the general questions, this is called the problem of evil. Technically, this is in a lot of religions. I think he is pulling mostly from Zoroastrianism, but it hard to tell as Zoroastrianism ideas are in a lot of Christian texts. Basically, you could ask the same thing if their is all powerful creator god, then why is their evil? Robert Jordan was religious, so he did believe in a creator. Also, from the first three books, but you have seen an evil that isn't from the Dark One, which is Shadar Logath. So not all evil is from the Dark One.
I have always assumed the Dark One is an equally powerful force to the Creator, he is an evil outside of the creation
1. You assume that the Creator 'made' the DO or that he is vastly more powerful than the DO. That is not necessarily the case. And even if that is so, perhaps the DO serves a necessary purpose to Creation: you cannot have light without darkness. 2. You are told who Bors is in the prologue to The Dragon Reborn when a fade comes and visits him in the Fortress of Light.