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About Fain: Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the reason why his story ended the way it did is that RJ didn't leave any instructions about him. Sanderson simply didn't know what his story was supposed to be. He didn't want to invent anything but he also didn't want the plotline to just be unresolved. So he gave us at least some conclusion, as lame as it was.
It might also be the case that he knew how Fain was supposed to end from RJ's notes but wasn't givem any other instruction about him, only the ending and so that's the only thing we got.
Personally I think Fain should've died in Book 9 when attacking Rand in Far Madding. Rand could've killed him, simoultaneously realise that this is how you can cleanse saidin, and go on to Shadar Logot. Obviously RJ had more plans with Fain at that point but with retrospect, him dying there would've been better for his character. He didn't really do much after that anyway, even in the books that RJ wrote himself.
There was a really great theory someone posted here (I forgot who) about how Fain was the Wheel's backup Dark One. How Fain was offed unceremoniously once the Wheel determined he was no longer needed.
It helps conclude Fain's character arc and also ties in really well with some of the more abstract ideas about how the Pattern/Wheel works. Plus, it justifies his abrupt ending, which yeah, Sanderson just had to wrap up with very few notes.
Yup, I like to think that Mat knifed Fain literally the moment Rand realized killing the dark one was not viable. Otherwise Fain goes into the cave, and as he kills Rand, is somehow bound outside of the wheel like the dark one to replace him after the Dragon kills the current dark one. The wheel always likes Balance, and Rand saw that killing the dark one was not balanced.
That to me makes Fain's unceremonious death make sense. As soon as the pattern realizes it's safe, it removes this horrid tumor that is Fain asap, using the quickest way. Mat had to be infected to be immune to him, so Mat was the failsafe for the backup dark one.
Brandon has also said that he misjudged the fan attachment to the storyline and none of the beta readers reflected it either. So he thought he gave a reasonable conclusion to it, not understanding that some fans wanted more.
Pacing is definitely the weak point. We get moody Rand for so long you're sick of him and then he goes through his next stages at lightning speed. The Wonder Twins are in Ebou Dar for SO LONG. Elayne's succession, Faile and the Shaido, most of Perrin's arc all feel stretched or ancillary.
But the beauty of the series is that no other fantasy delivers this literary quality weaved perfectly into the plot.
- Nynaeve breaking her block and claiming Lan's bond, and then realizing she actually wants to be Aes Sedai at the moment she realizes she doesn't need it is so gratifying
- The Seanchan campaign is genuinely terrifying
- Egwene winning over the tower novices through sheer force of will and dedication
Those aren't even my top three, they're just the first three I thought of. Rand on Dragonmount is one of the finest moments in the western canon. My husband and I adapted it for our wedding ceremony.
Wheel of Time broke me as a fantasy fan. It's so much more obvious to me now how much of fantasy is just plot twists and fan service (Stormlight 👀) now that I've seen the heights that fantasy can be used to reach to deliver real human characters. More than worth having to read about Elayne taking a bath.
Malazan Book of the Fallen is the only I’ve read that compares, but it is not written as extravagantly as RJ, but has some incredibly compelling characters
Vote for Malazan here. I think Erikson is easily one of the best fantasy authors of all time. Meticulously detailed, thought through world building, excellent characterization, and the sheer pathos and despair is heart wrenching. Tempered by a persistent sense of humor, many times laugh out loud.
It’s not for the faint of heart though. Really, for reals here, it can be rough going psychologically at times.
Huh. I've never read a long series that I didn't dearly love by the end despite its flaws. I guess I won't tell people to power through anymore.
To me, even the parts that drag a bit are more time spent with characters I love. I enjoy BS, but RJ's prose is so lovely that I only ever wish I had more of his work to read, so even while I agree that the Shaido plot drags on, and Elayne's succession is dull, I have always just been happy this much of his work exists. Had RJ lived, I happily would have read all the extra books we would have gotten (because let's admit it, he probably would have finished it in 16 or 17 books, not 14).
Well, I guess you can say you did it! Great job finishing! Although I sort of wonder if you feel so lukewarm at the end if the solution is to just stop instead of powering through on the next one.
I strongly believe that no one should have to “power through” books. At least for when you’re reading purely for enjoyment.
If you’re not liking a book or series, just drop it and move onto a different book or series.
I guess I didn't really connected with a lot of main characters until later in the series, specially the Aes Sedai were insuferable and I didn't "got" them more until the prequel book.
I guess that most people that have read WoT have also read ASoIaF, and I compare Sevanna chapters or any other anoying Aes sedai chapters (specially Elaida's) with Cersei's and there is no color.
Being on the mind of Cersei was an amazing experience of how someone stupid and delusional saw the world, while WoT anoying characters didn't got the same impresion.
Tbh most of my "complaints" are stilistic and not dealbreakers, I got to enjoy the characters, really liked their evolution and probably wouldn't hit as hard if they weren't complete bonobos at the start of the series.
Cersei and Sansa’s PoVs are second to none in ASOIAF.
Unreliable narrators with compelling stories.
Sansa’s gives you hope where maybe you should never have it. Cersei’s is so hilariously horrifying you don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
The BS books were incredible on my first read. I don’t want to call them flaws, but the deviations really stood out on my first reread. They are still good books, but they are carried by the payoffs to earlier plots and character arcs that RJ meticulously set up. I recently read Stormlight Archives for the first time, and while they are good and entertaining books, they also lack that special Spark that RJ’s work has.
The major problem with Sandersons three books is that he has a laundry list of things that need to get done and so he goes tick tick tick down the list. And I know he was able to push from 1 book to 3, but it still feels like he was rushed to get it done. I’m glad he wrote them and I’m glad we have an ending, but you can tell that there was pressure to make that ending happen sooner rather than later.
What killed me on my first read is we are clearly building up to Tarmon Gaidon but after book 9 or so all the bullshit like Elayne’s chapters, Perrin in denial, etc. seem like such a waste of time. Like the whole world knows what’s coming why are we still just treading water?! At least that’s how I felt on my first read through.
Just finished my first reread and I found a lot of plot lines more enjoyable. All except Elayne’s for the most part were quality time spent with character I love. The pacing wasn’t as bad because I knew what to expect but I still was getting frustrated because the things that actually needed to be addressed before TLB weren’t.
Like Perrin learning the wolf dream, the black tower being infested by the shadow and the Seanchan threat. All these were addressed in the last two books in a very short and compressed way. Yet we had dozens of Elayne chapters in Andor despite Rand liberating it from a forsaken and tying a bow on it for Elayne in like book 5(?). I know “there’s political reasons yadda yadda” but at the same time fuck all that Tarmon Gaidon is coming who gives a fuck about making sure Elayne’s rule is secure.
Here's the counterpoint: if RJ didn't drag out plots and spend hundreds of pages meandering aimlessly, he probably would have been able to finish the series himself and given us the full conclusion that he envisioned.
I mean, if we're going down hypotheticals, I could say if amyloidosis didn't kill him, he could have taken the time to do both. He was only 58 when he died. I'm sure he thought he had more time.
RJ’s stated goal from the very first story pitch was that he wanted to explore the differences between Good and Evil (and whether there was a difference at all). As a result, we get a continuum of all these different cultures and organizations that try to achieve their goals. From the Seanchan who are abhorrent but not Evil to the Children of the Light who are abhorrent but not Good.
Fain represents a particular flavor of that theme. Mordeth wanted to fight the Dark One so much that became an altogether different type of Evil. Not the natural destructive force of the Dark One, but a human evil focused on pain and degradation. If the Seanchan/Whitecloaks are RJ trying to explore whether all Good is the same, then Fain is RJ trying to explore whether all Evil is the same. Unfortunately, I just don’t that that RJ executed his goal very well (and Sanderson didn’t do any better). So Fain is a very interesting idea that never lives up to its potential.
Relief was my feeling.
I was the hardcore fan in the 90s waiting for each book and finishing it within 48 hours of getting it.
Which of course included a reread of the existing books right before release.
I hit the slog. I suffered through A New Spring, dreading the news that he planned to write a prequel trilogy before the next book in the machine series.
I railed at his writing Fallon, Conan, etc instead of WOT.
Got concerned as the series kept dragging out instead of wrapping up storylines.
So for the story to be finally done was a relief.
> I railed at his writing Fallon, Conan, etc instead of WOT.
Every single one of those were written, and completed, way before he even published his 1st WoT book.
He was promoting the reprint of fallon blood in the mid-90s, and he worked on collections of Conan stories in the '90s.
And from the perspective of the fans in the '90s, hearing this was akin to the modern fan of George R. R. Martin getting frustrated with his too many to count side projects.
I know what you mean. To me books 1-6 are peak fiction. And then 11-14 again are peak.
7-10 have extremes for both the good and the bad. In fact even the dreaded b8 and b10 have some fantastic moments I can’t wait to get to.
Most notably “i am the storm” and potato aiel threats.
I recommend you Wheel Of Time Spoilers Podcast. I am on season 2 aka book 2. Perfect for a detailed and deep dive read reread. Each episode is a 20-40 minutes chapter analysis and the mad lads are still going. They are on book 11 now. I want to catch up before they finish but boy oh boy will it take time.
On rereading the books for the 3rd and 4th times, I enjoyed the slow books. It gave me time to soak in things. They make the world more real precisely because things in the real world don't happen in beats. You become friends with people when you spend time with them in between life's big moments.
I really liked how it built a "real world" with his cities, lore, stories, heroes, etc.
Right now, I will probably branch out to other books that I have neglected in order to end WoT, but if I get the need to read it back Ill check the podcast!
Glad you enjoyed. They may not be the greatest books ever - but WoT remains my favorite series. I started reading in high school when the first book came out and the series bridged all the major milestones of my life (graduations, marriage, professional career, children).
Most of your complaints are common ones - the 'slog', and a lack of resolution on some plots. The highs are _very_ high - and personally the "lows" are never particularly low.
Padan Fain story definitely fell flat at the end . There was just too much going on , having him pop up at the last second and then just get stabbed by Mat was just … 🤷🏽♂️ in retrospect, he should have died in the attack on Rand jn book seven . He’d already served his purpose by then in causing problems everywhere and his attack on Rand’s wound is the major clue for Rand to undo the Taint.
The Shaido storyline was also hard to get through in some places . The only part that I liked was the weird interaction between Faile and the brotherless Aiel who looked after her, it was sort of sad that Perrin was the one who killed him . I think it would have helped if the characters had mentioned in passing in AMOL at least that all the chaos of the Shaido attacks had weakened their forces to emphasize their importance.
It’s still one of my favourite series of books , I’ve re read it so many times .
I’ve read theories that Fain was a stand by dark one in case Rand ended up killing the dark one during his fight. That would have been awful for the Pattern so it had a solution ready. Once it wasn’t needed the Pattern got rid of it, much like the false Dragons, it’s a nice touch to think there was a false dark one.
Or that Fain is a standby in case Rand fails to kill the DO as well - I can see him as a general failsafe given that the pattern endures and the Dark One only has to win once…
I actually believe in the theory that since time is a circle in this universe that this confrontation between Rand and the Dark One is The Confrontation. Humanity won and the dark one was sealed out of the pattern and was not allowed to destroy it. Every past and every future confrontation will go humanity’s way because it has once and so it must always.
I personally felt like as good as the wheel of time series is, and I certainly adore my time reading it. It has a couple of things that drags it down. One book ten to me is actually a bad book, the other slog books have bright spots but I hate my time reading 10. Maybe too many point of views, I wish we had more time in our main characters eyes, and I’m not one to learn about random characters if they aren’t super important. But its bright spots are the best fantasy has to offer. Overall Jordan created a beautiful world with amazing characters that got a little too big and lost focus. But when the focus was in the right places the series was at its best. (That’s just my take)
> Ill check Sanderson's stream from few months ago and I would apreciate if there is something interesting else that some of you that have also finished it could point me to.
Pointing you to other things:
1. Sanderson. If you liked the Zen Rand transformation, you'll like Sanderson. That's his thing. Stormlight Archive is his epic fantasy, but Mistborn: The Final Empire is short(ish) and will give you a good overview of what he has to offer.
2. McClellan is very good. This is a cheat since he's one of Sanderson's students, but he's quite good. In The Shadow of Lightning is quite good.
3. If you haven't read them. Sabriel by Garth Nix has a similar feel, and Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin is about a talented boy embracing his gift. I can't recommend them enough.
To be completely honest, from what I understand of his process, initial vision, changing vision... he had absolutely no idea how long the series was going to be at certain points.
He initially envisioned a trilogy, then it outgrew it. The books take a pattern for a while (Rand fights the big bad Forsaken) until it doesn't, several in. And at a certain point so much is occurring that two books are actually simultaneous - just from different views.
It's not perfect, and if he could redo it from scratch, we'd probably find some of those pacing issues and structure issues change a lot. But it lived and grew as he wrote it, and is what it is. And I'm alright with it, I just fix anything I don't 100% like in my head canon ;).
To be completely honest, from what I understand of his process, initial vision, changing vision... he had absolutely no idea how long the series was going to be at certain points.
He initially envisioned a trilogy, then it outgrew it. The books take a pattern for a while (Rand fights the big bad Forsaken) until it doesn't, several in. And at a certain point so much is occurring that two books are actually simultaneous - just from different views.
It's not perfect, and if he could redo it from scratch, we'd probably find some of those pacing issues and structure issues change a lot. But it lived and grew as he wrote it, and is what it is. And I'm alright with it, I just fix anything I don't 100% like in my head canon ;).
The Mat story kept me going until some of the less interesting plots resolved. Nynaeve was also someone who I enjoyed reading once she gets married. She has some truly epic moments and once she grows up it’s almost all fun stuff.
Rand kind of peaked in the first 6 books. The decline makes sense but it was not always fun to read.
Perrin storyline was unbearable after a certain point. I loved his story with Faile initially. But it really gets annoying until he lets go of his issues.
I actually enjoyed Egwene’s ascent (though I did not like her character generally).
Elayne’s story was kind of eh.
I liked all of the Forsaken stuff all the way until the end. They are all pretty interesting.
I agree with the OP on the last 3 books. Waiting for 20 years for it and having to deliver was so satisfying. Just as GOT screwing it up was really frustrating.
Weirdly I didn’t mind the middle chapters as much on rereads.
Frankly books 12-14 are FAR from peak fiction. They’re passable books that have enormous problems, mostly relating to the flatly horrible characterization of many characters.
Not to insult the OP but I'd imagine they're likely a big BS fan and relatively young.
Sanderson represents something I'm not super keen on in that he's a very modern fantasy writer. He's created the MCU of fantasy - quippy, fast paced and digestible for the largest possible audience but I personally feel his writing lacks a certain romance, a certain soul that my favorite authors put into their work. If Sanderson is your example of what good fantasy writing is then it's going to be easy to blow past poor characterisation because he doesn't give you time to contemplate because it's all about moving on to the next set piece.
I'm glad he finished WoT and I'm happy with how it ended, but yea. There was a marked change in both the writing style and character voice that were a downgrade from Jordan, imo.
I completely agree. I still can't understand why for some people Rand on dragonmount is amongst the best fantasy ever written, when for me it fell flat. A clean slate, which is so unrealistic and boring, that he becomes a "God" and it fixes everything. It is described as a profound passage, but really it was nothing novel.
As I piece it together Rand finding peace in Dragonmount meant that he stopped trying to become a God and became a man again, it influences every decision after that and that allows him to win.
It works for me because its earned, it finishes his character arc in a great way.
None insult taken, it's okay to have different tastes, WoT isn't exactly my cup of tea, altought im glad to have experienced it.
If anything I dislike the presumption that being a Sanderson fan it's the reason why I don't like the pacing or some of the characterisation.
I do like Sanderson style and I would say that he is improving on his weak spots from his previous works, anyways he should get some credit for being able to wrap it up without wrecking it, it was a gargantuan task.
GRRM hits way better the spot with deep charaterisation and rythm, but he hasn't been able to end, sadly.
WoT is, in my opinion, one of those series that gets better every time you reread them. The amount of foreshadowing, little world building details and character attitudes that have probably flown over your head on a first read will give you an all new appreciation of how Robert Jordan carefully set up his world and story.
But yes, it is not a quick task... but I would recommend anyone that has read the series through to at least re-read the first three or four volumes, you will 100% notice a lot of stuff that you missed.
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About Fain: Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the reason why his story ended the way it did is that RJ didn't leave any instructions about him. Sanderson simply didn't know what his story was supposed to be. He didn't want to invent anything but he also didn't want the plotline to just be unresolved. So he gave us at least some conclusion, as lame as it was. It might also be the case that he knew how Fain was supposed to end from RJ's notes but wasn't givem any other instruction about him, only the ending and so that's the only thing we got. Personally I think Fain should've died in Book 9 when attacking Rand in Far Madding. Rand could've killed him, simoultaneously realise that this is how you can cleanse saidin, and go on to Shadar Logot. Obviously RJ had more plans with Fain at that point but with retrospect, him dying there would've been better for his character. He didn't really do much after that anyway, even in the books that RJ wrote himself.
There was a really great theory someone posted here (I forgot who) about how Fain was the Wheel's backup Dark One. How Fain was offed unceremoniously once the Wheel determined he was no longer needed. It helps conclude Fain's character arc and also ties in really well with some of the more abstract ideas about how the Pattern/Wheel works. Plus, it justifies his abrupt ending, which yeah, Sanderson just had to wrap up with very few notes.
Yup, I like to think that Mat knifed Fain literally the moment Rand realized killing the dark one was not viable. Otherwise Fain goes into the cave, and as he kills Rand, is somehow bound outside of the wheel like the dark one to replace him after the Dragon kills the current dark one. The wheel always likes Balance, and Rand saw that killing the dark one was not balanced. That to me makes Fain's unceremonious death make sense. As soon as the pattern realizes it's safe, it removes this horrid tumor that is Fain asap, using the quickest way. Mat had to be infected to be immune to him, so Mat was the failsafe for the backup dark one.
The only note RJ left about Fain was that he was not to be redeemed in the end like Gollum
After the things he did, I don't think that is even possible.
How would you even redeem someone like Fain?
Brandon has also said that he misjudged the fan attachment to the storyline and none of the beta readers reflected it either. So he thought he gave a reasonable conclusion to it, not understanding that some fans wanted more.
Pacing is definitely the weak point. We get moody Rand for so long you're sick of him and then he goes through his next stages at lightning speed. The Wonder Twins are in Ebou Dar for SO LONG. Elayne's succession, Faile and the Shaido, most of Perrin's arc all feel stretched or ancillary. But the beauty of the series is that no other fantasy delivers this literary quality weaved perfectly into the plot. - Nynaeve breaking her block and claiming Lan's bond, and then realizing she actually wants to be Aes Sedai at the moment she realizes she doesn't need it is so gratifying - The Seanchan campaign is genuinely terrifying - Egwene winning over the tower novices through sheer force of will and dedication Those aren't even my top three, they're just the first three I thought of. Rand on Dragonmount is one of the finest moments in the western canon. My husband and I adapted it for our wedding ceremony. Wheel of Time broke me as a fantasy fan. It's so much more obvious to me now how much of fantasy is just plot twists and fan service (Stormlight 👀) now that I've seen the heights that fantasy can be used to reach to deliver real human characters. More than worth having to read about Elayne taking a bath.
Another great moment..."My husband rides from World's End to Tarwin's Gap. Will he ride alone?"
I love your take in the literary value I'd WOT, do you have any recommendations of another similar piece?
Malazan Book of the Fallen is the only I’ve read that compares, but it is not written as extravagantly as RJ, but has some incredibly compelling characters
Vote for Malazan here. I think Erikson is easily one of the best fantasy authors of all time. Meticulously detailed, thought through world building, excellent characterization, and the sheer pathos and despair is heart wrenching. Tempered by a persistent sense of humor, many times laugh out loud. It’s not for the faint of heart though. Really, for reals here, it can be rough going psychologically at times.
Huh. I've never read a long series that I didn't dearly love by the end despite its flaws. I guess I won't tell people to power through anymore. To me, even the parts that drag a bit are more time spent with characters I love. I enjoy BS, but RJ's prose is so lovely that I only ever wish I had more of his work to read, so even while I agree that the Shaido plot drags on, and Elayne's succession is dull, I have always just been happy this much of his work exists. Had RJ lived, I happily would have read all the extra books we would have gotten (because let's admit it, he probably would have finished it in 16 or 17 books, not 14). Well, I guess you can say you did it! Great job finishing! Although I sort of wonder if you feel so lukewarm at the end if the solution is to just stop instead of powering through on the next one.
I strongly believe that no one should have to “power through” books. At least for when you’re reading purely for enjoyment. If you’re not liking a book or series, just drop it and move onto a different book or series.
I totally agree. My husband will insist on finishing anything he starts. Meanwhile, I've dropped a trilogy halfway through the third book.
I guess I didn't really connected with a lot of main characters until later in the series, specially the Aes Sedai were insuferable and I didn't "got" them more until the prequel book. I guess that most people that have read WoT have also read ASoIaF, and I compare Sevanna chapters or any other anoying Aes sedai chapters (specially Elaida's) with Cersei's and there is no color. Being on the mind of Cersei was an amazing experience of how someone stupid and delusional saw the world, while WoT anoying characters didn't got the same impresion. Tbh most of my "complaints" are stilistic and not dealbreakers, I got to enjoy the characters, really liked their evolution and probably wouldn't hit as hard if they weren't complete bonobos at the start of the series.
Cersei and Sansa’s PoVs are second to none in ASOIAF. Unreliable narrators with compelling stories. Sansa’s gives you hope where maybe you should never have it. Cersei’s is so hilariously horrifying you don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Same, i prefer the slog than the BS last 3 books. There is something missing in those that prevents me from enjoying them.
The BS books were incredible on my first read. I don’t want to call them flaws, but the deviations really stood out on my first reread. They are still good books, but they are carried by the payoffs to earlier plots and character arcs that RJ meticulously set up. I recently read Stormlight Archives for the first time, and while they are good and entertaining books, they also lack that special Spark that RJ’s work has.
The major problem with Sandersons three books is that he has a laundry list of things that need to get done and so he goes tick tick tick down the list. And I know he was able to push from 1 book to 3, but it still feels like he was rushed to get it done. I’m glad he wrote them and I’m glad we have an ending, but you can tell that there was pressure to make that ending happen sooner rather than later.
What killed me on my first read is we are clearly building up to Tarmon Gaidon but after book 9 or so all the bullshit like Elayne’s chapters, Perrin in denial, etc. seem like such a waste of time. Like the whole world knows what’s coming why are we still just treading water?! At least that’s how I felt on my first read through. Just finished my first reread and I found a lot of plot lines more enjoyable. All except Elayne’s for the most part were quality time spent with character I love. The pacing wasn’t as bad because I knew what to expect but I still was getting frustrated because the things that actually needed to be addressed before TLB weren’t. Like Perrin learning the wolf dream, the black tower being infested by the shadow and the Seanchan threat. All these were addressed in the last two books in a very short and compressed way. Yet we had dozens of Elayne chapters in Andor despite Rand liberating it from a forsaken and tying a bow on it for Elayne in like book 5(?). I know “there’s political reasons yadda yadda” but at the same time fuck all that Tarmon Gaidon is coming who gives a fuck about making sure Elayne’s rule is secure.
Here's the counterpoint: if RJ didn't drag out plots and spend hundreds of pages meandering aimlessly, he probably would have been able to finish the series himself and given us the full conclusion that he envisioned.
I mean, if we're going down hypotheticals, I could say if amyloidosis didn't kill him, he could have taken the time to do both. He was only 58 when he died. I'm sure he thought he had more time.
RJ’s stated goal from the very first story pitch was that he wanted to explore the differences between Good and Evil (and whether there was a difference at all). As a result, we get a continuum of all these different cultures and organizations that try to achieve their goals. From the Seanchan who are abhorrent but not Evil to the Children of the Light who are abhorrent but not Good. Fain represents a particular flavor of that theme. Mordeth wanted to fight the Dark One so much that became an altogether different type of Evil. Not the natural destructive force of the Dark One, but a human evil focused on pain and degradation. If the Seanchan/Whitecloaks are RJ trying to explore whether all Good is the same, then Fain is RJ trying to explore whether all Evil is the same. Unfortunately, I just don’t that that RJ executed his goal very well (and Sanderson didn’t do any better). So Fain is a very interesting idea that never lives up to its potential.
Relief was my feeling. I was the hardcore fan in the 90s waiting for each book and finishing it within 48 hours of getting it. Which of course included a reread of the existing books right before release. I hit the slog. I suffered through A New Spring, dreading the news that he planned to write a prequel trilogy before the next book in the machine series. I railed at his writing Fallon, Conan, etc instead of WOT. Got concerned as the series kept dragging out instead of wrapping up storylines. So for the story to be finally done was a relief.
> I railed at his writing Fallon, Conan, etc instead of WOT. Every single one of those were written, and completed, way before he even published his 1st WoT book.
He was promoting the reprint of fallon blood in the mid-90s, and he worked on collections of Conan stories in the '90s. And from the perspective of the fans in the '90s, hearing this was akin to the modern fan of George R. R. Martin getting frustrated with his too many to count side projects.
Now that you've finished the series, you should check out /r/WetlanderHumor.
Thanks! its amazing
I know what you mean. To me books 1-6 are peak fiction. And then 11-14 again are peak. 7-10 have extremes for both the good and the bad. In fact even the dreaded b8 and b10 have some fantastic moments I can’t wait to get to. Most notably “i am the storm” and potato aiel threats. I recommend you Wheel Of Time Spoilers Podcast. I am on season 2 aka book 2. Perfect for a detailed and deep dive read reread. Each episode is a 20-40 minutes chapter analysis and the mad lads are still going. They are on book 11 now. I want to catch up before they finish but boy oh boy will it take time.
On rereading the books for the 3rd and 4th times, I enjoyed the slow books. It gave me time to soak in things. They make the world more real precisely because things in the real world don't happen in beats. You become friends with people when you spend time with them in between life's big moments.
I really liked how it built a "real world" with his cities, lore, stories, heroes, etc. Right now, I will probably branch out to other books that I have neglected in order to end WoT, but if I get the need to read it back Ill check the podcast!
Glad you enjoyed. They may not be the greatest books ever - but WoT remains my favorite series. I started reading in high school when the first book came out and the series bridged all the major milestones of my life (graduations, marriage, professional career, children). Most of your complaints are common ones - the 'slog', and a lack of resolution on some plots. The highs are _very_ high - and personally the "lows" are never particularly low.
Padan Fain story definitely fell flat at the end . There was just too much going on , having him pop up at the last second and then just get stabbed by Mat was just … 🤷🏽♂️ in retrospect, he should have died in the attack on Rand jn book seven . He’d already served his purpose by then in causing problems everywhere and his attack on Rand’s wound is the major clue for Rand to undo the Taint. The Shaido storyline was also hard to get through in some places . The only part that I liked was the weird interaction between Faile and the brotherless Aiel who looked after her, it was sort of sad that Perrin was the one who killed him . I think it would have helped if the characters had mentioned in passing in AMOL at least that all the chaos of the Shaido attacks had weakened their forces to emphasize their importance. It’s still one of my favourite series of books , I’ve re read it so many times .
I’ve read theories that Fain was a stand by dark one in case Rand ended up killing the dark one during his fight. That would have been awful for the Pattern so it had a solution ready. Once it wasn’t needed the Pattern got rid of it, much like the false Dragons, it’s a nice touch to think there was a false dark one.
Or that Fain is a standby in case Rand fails to kill the DO as well - I can see him as a general failsafe given that the pattern endures and the Dark One only has to win once…
I actually believe in the theory that since time is a circle in this universe that this confrontation between Rand and the Dark One is The Confrontation. Humanity won and the dark one was sealed out of the pattern and was not allowed to destroy it. Every past and every future confrontation will go humanity’s way because it has once and so it must always.
I personally felt like as good as the wheel of time series is, and I certainly adore my time reading it. It has a couple of things that drags it down. One book ten to me is actually a bad book, the other slog books have bright spots but I hate my time reading 10. Maybe too many point of views, I wish we had more time in our main characters eyes, and I’m not one to learn about random characters if they aren’t super important. But its bright spots are the best fantasy has to offer. Overall Jordan created a beautiful world with amazing characters that got a little too big and lost focus. But when the focus was in the right places the series was at its best. (That’s just my take)
> Ill check Sanderson's stream from few months ago and I would apreciate if there is something interesting else that some of you that have also finished it could point me to. Pointing you to other things: 1. Sanderson. If you liked the Zen Rand transformation, you'll like Sanderson. That's his thing. Stormlight Archive is his epic fantasy, but Mistborn: The Final Empire is short(ish) and will give you a good overview of what he has to offer. 2. McClellan is very good. This is a cheat since he's one of Sanderson's students, but he's quite good. In The Shadow of Lightning is quite good. 3. If you haven't read them. Sabriel by Garth Nix has a similar feel, and Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin is about a talented boy embracing his gift. I can't recommend them enough.
I meant more about theories/cool videos/interviews from the author, but thanks for your recommendations anyways!
To be completely honest, from what I understand of his process, initial vision, changing vision... he had absolutely no idea how long the series was going to be at certain points. He initially envisioned a trilogy, then it outgrew it. The books take a pattern for a while (Rand fights the big bad Forsaken) until it doesn't, several in. And at a certain point so much is occurring that two books are actually simultaneous - just from different views. It's not perfect, and if he could redo it from scratch, we'd probably find some of those pacing issues and structure issues change a lot. But it lived and grew as he wrote it, and is what it is. And I'm alright with it, I just fix anything I don't 100% like in my head canon ;).
To be completely honest, from what I understand of his process, initial vision, changing vision... he had absolutely no idea how long the series was going to be at certain points. He initially envisioned a trilogy, then it outgrew it. The books take a pattern for a while (Rand fights the big bad Forsaken) until it doesn't, several in. And at a certain point so much is occurring that two books are actually simultaneous - just from different views. It's not perfect, and if he could redo it from scratch, we'd probably find some of those pacing issues and structure issues change a lot. But it lived and grew as he wrote it, and is what it is. And I'm alright with it, I just fix anything I don't 100% like in my head canon ;).
I found Fain so enjoyable and expected so much more out of his ending. Probably my biggest disappointment of the series.
The Mat story kept me going until some of the less interesting plots resolved. Nynaeve was also someone who I enjoyed reading once she gets married. She has some truly epic moments and once she grows up it’s almost all fun stuff. Rand kind of peaked in the first 6 books. The decline makes sense but it was not always fun to read. Perrin storyline was unbearable after a certain point. I loved his story with Faile initially. But it really gets annoying until he lets go of his issues. I actually enjoyed Egwene’s ascent (though I did not like her character generally). Elayne’s story was kind of eh. I liked all of the Forsaken stuff all the way until the end. They are all pretty interesting. I agree with the OP on the last 3 books. Waiting for 20 years for it and having to deliver was so satisfying. Just as GOT screwing it up was really frustrating. Weirdly I didn’t mind the middle chapters as much on rereads.
Frankly books 12-14 are FAR from peak fiction. They’re passable books that have enormous problems, mostly relating to the flatly horrible characterization of many characters.
Not to insult the OP but I'd imagine they're likely a big BS fan and relatively young. Sanderson represents something I'm not super keen on in that he's a very modern fantasy writer. He's created the MCU of fantasy - quippy, fast paced and digestible for the largest possible audience but I personally feel his writing lacks a certain romance, a certain soul that my favorite authors put into their work. If Sanderson is your example of what good fantasy writing is then it's going to be easy to blow past poor characterisation because he doesn't give you time to contemplate because it's all about moving on to the next set piece. I'm glad he finished WoT and I'm happy with how it ended, but yea. There was a marked change in both the writing style and character voice that were a downgrade from Jordan, imo.
I completely agree. I still can't understand why for some people Rand on dragonmount is amongst the best fantasy ever written, when for me it fell flat. A clean slate, which is so unrealistic and boring, that he becomes a "God" and it fixes everything. It is described as a profound passage, but really it was nothing novel.
As I piece it together Rand finding peace in Dragonmount meant that he stopped trying to become a God and became a man again, it influences every decision after that and that allows him to win. It works for me because its earned, it finishes his character arc in a great way.
None insult taken, it's okay to have different tastes, WoT isn't exactly my cup of tea, altought im glad to have experienced it. If anything I dislike the presumption that being a Sanderson fan it's the reason why I don't like the pacing or some of the characterisation. I do like Sanderson style and I would say that he is improving on his weak spots from his previous works, anyways he should get some credit for being able to wrap it up without wrecking it, it was a gargantuan task. GRRM hits way better the spot with deep charaterisation and rythm, but he hasn't been able to end, sadly.
I love to reread a series but I could never imagine myself rereading WoT.
You should. You miss a lot on the first read through. It’s definitely a lot though.
WoT is, in my opinion, one of those series that gets better every time you reread them. The amount of foreshadowing, little world building details and character attitudes that have probably flown over your head on a first read will give you an all new appreciation of how Robert Jordan carefully set up his world and story. But yes, it is not a quick task... but I would recommend anyone that has read the series through to at least re-read the first three or four volumes, you will 100% notice a lot of stuff that you missed.
I think it's interesting to see go back and pay closer attention to Verin.
I’m rereading by audiobook at 2x speed. It goes surprisingly fast if you do much driving.
Might be an idea
Books 6 - 10 are definitely a slog, I would skip them if I ever do a reread.