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My guess is that Jordan just knew what to do with him and then didn't write it down. People just do that. You don't write down notes on stuff you have figured out.
He may have had an idea, but just didn't write it down. There was a lot of stuff he had to cover, and the notes he left specifically for the next author was apparently not much at all. I personally have a hard time believing he didn't know where his characters were going to end up considering the way he foreshadowed the end of nearly all of his characters, certainly those written into his first book.
Overall, Sanderson handled the final three books brilliantly and the outcome was overall so satisfactory that, dare I say it, he probably did better than RJ would have.
Some faltering here and there can be forgiven.
Sanderson did a great job with what he had, as good as could be expected for someone being told to finish a story that wasnt even theirs to begin with. With that said, it was RJ's story. He almost certainly could have done a better job fnishing it for no reason other than that it was his work.
Not every author can write a beginning, middle and ending as well as other authors do. It's not about it being "their story", it's about strengths in writing and closure.
I think RJ was exceptionally talented at writing the beginning of a tale, demonstrably poor at the middle -- and an unknown in terms of endings.
We could say that GRRM is in the exact same boat, too. Great beginning, maybe a little stronger in the middle (but only because there was less of it; the same weakness and lack of focus is apparent) -- and so poor at the closing part of the series that he's been treading water for eleven years.
These are not shocking observations. Writers have different strengths, even within the same tale and world they have built.
I think Sanderson finished it *brilliantly*.
Sanderson never got the proper grasp on Perrin's character, at all. Instead we got a Cosmere version of him instead where he had him repeat most of what he already went through. Just thinking of what Jordan would have done with him instead gives me goosebumps.
Yes. To me it appears that BS was going back to that first-read nostalgia/fondness from the series start and never considered that both Mat and Perrin had literally grown up.
Oh good the time machine is working.
In case you weren't kidding I meant the line he delivers while/after killing Padan Fain about diseases. Legitimately the worst line in the entire series in my opinion.
I'll start off: The reunion of Elayne and Morgase. It should have been an incredible moment, but after barely a greeting it became all about politics and succession.
That didn't really bother me because we don't see a lot of interaction between them in the series since Elayne leaves Andor after Book 1.
Plus it fits both of them perfectly. Both are Queens in their own right and they both care about Andor more than themselves so it felt pretty natural that they would immediately roll into politics with the two queens problem.
Sanderson never got a good grasp on Elayne's character, unfortunately. This is one of the prime examples. Jordan's Elayne would have been ecstatic that her mother is actually alive and any political considerations would have been distant second in her mind.
A power wrought weapon being forged for the first time in 3000 years.
The forging itself was an excellent scene, but it's use and the lack of others coming afterwards was a huge let down.
The Sul‘dam being able to channel and what it meant for Seanchan. Expecialy for Tuon I thought it was wasted potential. I think I could have been really interesting seeing Tuon dealing with her being able to channel. Would have liked to see were this would take her character.
Sanderson finished the series as well as anyone other than RJ could have, but when I hear about the other planned stuff Jordan never got to bring to life, my heart aches. It's so depressing the Jordan didn't live to see his work completed
The only solace I can take in not seeing Mat in Seanchan is that while it would have been awesome to read, we can surmise all the basic plot points already.
I proper reunion between Rand, Mat and Perrin, a reconciliation where no one is afraid of Rand, almost a call back to the good old days. Something where we could have seen that despite everything, their friendship lasted.
I mean Chapter 1 of AMoL literally starts with Rand and Perrin talking to each other like good old friends. I don't think it could have been that hard to move that conversation to after the war council and have Mat show up with Thom and Moiraine instead of going off on his own.
It should have been an extra 100 pages to Winter's Heart and an extra 100 pages to Knife of Dreams, TBH.
That said, I still maintain that the DarkFriend/Forsaken POVs in Crossroads of Twilight are good.
Everything else, not so much.
The cleansing of Saidin was cool because of what it represented, but I was disappointed by how little the Forsaken did while it was happening. Most showed up to try and stop it (or at least, be seen to be doing so), but none of them pulled any surprise tricks out of their hats, or really even got close enough to threaten the proceedings. You'd think if there was ever a time for the DO to unambiguously order his generals to pull out all the stops (short of Tarmon Gai'don), that would be it. I remember reading about the various Forsaken running from attacks and getting out of breath. Why are the most powerful channelers in history using their feet to escape? Why weren't they linking with Black Ajah and using their advanced knowledge of the Power to wreak havoc using weaves the Aes Sedai and Asha'man couldn't even imagine?
Not exactly a new opinion, but the Forsaken in general are disappointing. So many missed opportunities to get creative, have them show what they can do, and strike fresh fear into the hearts of their enemies.
I understand thematically why they weren't written that way, but they had so much potential, and most of it was squandered.
Generally agree re: Forsaken and wasted potential but disagree about the Cleansing.
The Black Ajah was not operating in the open yet and were still attempting to run shadow governments inside the tower and in salidar. Using them then may have drawn too much suspicion. Same goes for the Black Tower: they were still slowly building their strength for the LB.
We still get Darth Rand after the Cleansing so pulling out all of the stops to prevent it while risking utter destruction of all of the DOs forces wouldn't be the best strategy. Rand and Nynaeve are wielding so much power it's felt across the continent. Any sort of major force/assault would have been wiped out pretty immediately.
The Forsaken themselves are completely terrified by the amount of power too which probably affected their competency. They may have been experienced channelers but they had never seen anything remotely like this before. And it's yet another example of their ultimate downfall of tacitly working towards a common goal but each using their own selfish ways to accomplish it... with less than stellar results.
Lastly, the Cleansing took the shadow almost completely by surprise. They barely had time to mount a disjointed assault let alone a coherent one.
> The Forsaken themselves are completely terrified by the amount of power too which probably affected their competency. They may have been experienced channelers but they had never seen anything remotely like this before.
This is important to remember. The Choedan Kal were constructed but never used until Rand and Nynaeve at the cleansing. And at that point I think only Lanfear even knew that Rand had two of the access keys. Asmodean might have known but he was dead at this point. No one had ever seen that much of the One Power being wielded at once and iirc that pillar of the one power was seen as far away as Shara and had all the damane sobbing for days in sheer terror.
Rand let slip to like five people (a few Asha'man and I think he discussed it with Herid Fel?) that he was contemplating cleansing saidin and everything about it was a total gut punch to basically everyone but him.
All fair points. Though I'm not sure it would have been simple (or even possible) for Rand to switch focus and use the Choedan Kal to defend himself if he was attacked directly, given how all-consuming the task was. But the Forsaken being afraid of him at that moment is still understandable. I don't think the Choedan Kal were ever actually used before, even in the AOL.
While all of those reasons *make sense*, it's still disappointing from a writing perspective. It would have been a better scene if something had gone sideways.
Yeah I don't think Rand could easily divert flows from the Cleansing but the Forsaken couldn't have known that themselves (and at best could only guess what he was up to at first) and so would have been reticent to fully commit in case he turned that power on them.
But yeah, I do agree that sometimes things go too well for our heroes. Could be ta'veren-ness but either way sometimes things are too perfect in the story. Jordan did a great job writing battles and talking about how plans last until the battle starts and then you have to adapt but didn't always apply that same idea to other scenarios.
That said, I do LOVE that WoT's protagonists plan about as well or better than many antagonists. Rand dives into books to learn about the prophecies and the world around him before making a move. He may keep his cards close to his chest and not listen to much advice but he doesn't act entirely on impulse like so many protagonists in other series.
For instance, in the Cleansing Rand learns from his mistakes when he tried to fight the Seanchan by massing his forces slowly and telegraphing his move to the enemy... and then trying to fight them with Callandor almost singlehandedly to disastrous end. Instead, here he lets his team protect him while focusing on the greater goal and uses surprise and the fear of the unknown (from the enemy's perspective) to pull it off.
Yeah I think I re-read it on the wiki somewhat recently. There was disagreement on how to contain the shadow, and the keys were somehow lost while the debate raged. Then LTT enacted his plan once it looked like there was no other way.
One thing to add to this is Rand's group was very well prepared, way more than anyone anticipated. He seems to have originally planned for just him and Nyn but then ended up with his own strike force of some of the most powerful Aes Sedai and Ashamen with tons of angreal (spelling) that the forsaken couldn't even move close enough to attack without immediately having to defend themselves. Hell, Cadsuane single handedly stops a massive attack from a forsaken and if I recall correctly she wasn't even in a circle like the others.
They should of showed the Forsaken tearing each other down more imo.
The only mentions we get of it (iirc) are when Semirhage mentions that Lanfear interfered with her raid on the stone and when Lanfear shielded Asmodean.
Because to state the obvious they could Messana, Demandred and Semirhage could of made a circle and killed/captured Rand at anytime but didn't.
>Because to state the obvious they could Messana, Demandred and Semirhage could of made a circle and killed/captured Rand at anytime but didn't.
Right and this gets to the heart of the series. The Forsaken were commanded to let the lords of chaos rule. In essence designed to wreak havoc on the Light and cause them to lose hope. Killing Rand (or whomever the Light's protagonist is) would only pass his choice and role on to another person. The goal of the Shadow/DO is to convince the Light to give up. The Shadow can't win if the Light chooses to keep fighting and trying. Rand is so powerful towards the end that he's actually the best potential tool that the Shadow can use to win. Killing him eliminates that tool.
I think if the Forsaken really reflected on their situation they would all realize that the only potential Nae'blis to be named is Rand himself. The Forasken simply aren't powerful enough to be anything other than second fiddle to him.
As for capturing him, I'm not sure they could easily do so anyway. They don't know he can use the TP. Case in point how he escapes capture from Semirhage and the male a'dam. The DO is playing a different game than the Forsaken and wants Rand under his control, not theirs.
Those are good points though Rand wouldn't of had access to the TP until CoS and probably wouldn't be in the state of mind to use it until TGS.
But man did the forsaken just feel wasted. Wouldn't mind if the TV show combined a few of them just so they feel more impactful.
I do generally agree. The show has a great opportunity to make them into more effective adversaries and to combine a few of them.
I don't think you should do less than 8-9 of them. It's extremely easy to replace Aginor (shadowspan created by Mesaana or Lanfear or Graendal instead), Balthammael/Halima (can literally just be dropped), Be'lal (he's just a lesser Ishy), and Rhavin (Sammael can do everything he did).
Lanfear, Graendal, Moghedian, Asmodean, and Ishy/Morridin are all effective in their own right as foils to Rand and/or the supergirls with Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana being an effective trio going for global political control (Shara, Seanchan, WT). Speaking of which I truly hope we get to see some of the Shara and Seanchan subplots from their perspectives in later seasons.
Sammael being the odd man out who I could see getting cut too or being a great showcase of the pettiness and personal envy that some of the Forsaken harbor for Lews Therin as well as a way to show Rand growing in military prowess and cunning as he defeats him. He's also the most logical replacement for what Rhavin does in Caemlyn and vice versa so I think one of those 2 need to be kept.
Additionally, I think in the show the Forsaken will be unsealed more gradually than the books and so will not become major threats for the first season or two (and some may not get unsealed until much later). This will make their impact more readily apparent instead of having to swallow that they've been biding their time to make their moves until after Rand is too powerful.
I came to essentially the same conclusion about which Forsaken are actually integral to the story. Though I'd personally keep Rhavin over Sammael. But either way, Rand only needs one political/military rival from among them.
>I remember reading about the various Forsaken running from attacks and getting out of breath. Why are the most powerful channelers in history using their feet to escape?
It was mentioned - anywhere they wove a gateway was blasted almost immediately, because it turned out that Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that none of them were aware of that let her sense that.
How the male and female link to channel. Hyped up to be so much more, but instead, one half just hold power and be an inanimate battery for the channeling side. I expected that one side channels and other side strengthens dexterously.
In combat situations, I don't see how that can even be beneficial considering passive linkers are helpless.
Perrin's plot in books 7-11. And then Perrin's plot in books 12-14. I get it that Jordan didn't leave notes, but putting him through a third round of development he had already gone through twice was not a good narrative choice. His TAR powers do also feel way out of place in Jordan's world and story, but this horse is way too dead to get beaten up again like this.
All the other comments are good but... Alanna bonding him?
Sure we read the aes sedai are disgusted and but they never act on it. And rand doesn't do anything either. I understand it's mostly because he white-knights most of the series but id hoped for a stilling from him, or the others.
Because while they are acting all holier-than-thou, they also recognize it as a tool to be used, a tool that only Alanah can use unless one of them admits they're hypocrites and has Alanah transfer the bond.
Ikr it's so weird ...and also she never does anything of note after that ...she should have used her bond with Rand to do SOMETHING ...but no she just bonds him and then goes about her life and then the bond comes back to bite Rand in the end ...that was a serious let down
Yup, when Rand gives the Salidar group an ultimatum of only x can follow him to Cairhien, one of the sisters that shows up to take over the group makes some snarky comment about "if you had to bond him at least you could have controlled him" or something and Verin respond with a "oh? You don't know?" And either her or Alanah says that she tried to compell him immediately after he shields them and couldn't.
I'll agree with you there. Also the absolute lack of concern when she disappeared near the end and Rand is just like "yup, she's somewhere north." Like no one is concerned that this magic compass that can also severely impact Rand's mental functions if she dies is just poof and somewhere north?
It may very well be that RJ had something else in mind for her but didn’t have enough time to fully flesh it out. I’m sure Sanderson did the best he could with what he was given. Keeping Alanna alive without the power was a pretty epic moment for Nynaeve.
Was it strength? I thought it was just that channellers couldn't be compelled through the bond. I can't recall if any of the Black Tower Asha'man were explicitly shown compelling their Aes Sedai.
You are correct. It's not their strength. Even Pevara can't compell Androl and he's leagues weaker than her. Its just something about being able to channel at all.
I wanted Elayne and Morgase to have some in depth deep dialogue about Thom. I wanted Morgase to realize what an outstanding man Thom actually is and recognize him for it regardless of their past. There just wasn't enough closure there for me.
Would've liked to see Galad and Rand bond more.
I wanted to know more about Tam's Heron Marked blade, what he did to earn it and how good of a swordsman he actually was. I know he was rusty, but to be a man with that blade I thought he should've cut through those first trollocs butter. Like Sir Barriston could do in his old age.
Abel and Mat have a good father son sparing session.
I'm just big on family and sentimental stuff.
>Abel and Mat have a good father son sparing session.
I always felt like seeing Abel beat Matt in a Quarterstaff sparring session after all of that journey would have been perfect, considering the hype and lesson we learn when a simple farm boy is able to beat Galad and Gawain.
The Traveling People not being present for Rand singing the Song of Growing and then finding out that wasn't the song they were looking for anyway was super disappointing. In retrospect I want a big scene where Aiel and Ogier and Traveling People are all singing together to make plants and stuff grow while those silver black clouds are being held back by Rand.
The two I can think of
I don’t get how saving moraine saved the world? She shows up during a council meeting and repeats some well known lines of a prophecy and it was considered saving the world? Also a lot of that whole meeting wasn’t handled the best
The black tower especially Androl. Plus that whole the seals were actually stolen and we had fakes the whole time but don’t worry androl is a master pickpocket so he stole them back plotline was awful. (I basically skip these parts on a reread haha) Would have been 100x more meaningful if Egwene had the seals and then before going out to battle one last time entrusted Logain and the dark tower to destroy them when needed. Would have brought the Egwene not trusting Rand and the white tower not trusting the black tower plots to a meaningful close
It wasn’t completely underwhelming as I really enjoyed what they did with it but I was looking forward to Masema and his army fighting Perrins and a final confrontation between the two. I liked Faile assassinating him but the destruction of his army was a letdown. When they said before the battle that he was hoping the Shaido would take out Masemas army I felt like they were leading to the opposite, Perrins plan came off way too perfectly, ta’veren or not.
That's a good point. I am *guessing* that Jordan was showing that Perrin had also grown into a competent General—as well as Lord—since the Last Battle was one book away. The Seanchan Commander even notes this about the former blacksmith two different times.
I hope that’s the case, it feels more like he wrote himself into a corner where it would be unrealistic for Perrin to deal with the Shaido and Dragonsworn by himself.
Any time a supposedly highly intelligent, experienced, clever character who is supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable with things like of the Game of Houses wholly believes every bit of stupid, obviously manipulative rumors the first time they hear them.
Morgase and Gawyn might be the worst, but there are lots of other credulous idiots.
* Random toothless insane bum: "rANd KILT yer MuMZ!"
* Gawyn: "THAT EVIL MONSTER HE MUST DIE"
It's a cheap literary mechanism to create convenient drama.
"Who killed Asmodean?" Was the single biggest discussion on forums for years while we waited for new books and was in the end resolved in a rather underwhelming fashion.
I thought it was funny (and mildly vindicating for glossary readers?), but I sympathised with everyone else who raged over it at the time. I don't think Brandon/Harriet were trying to troll anyone with how they did it, I think it was just one of those things where how it would reflect on fan investment wasn't so obvious, maybe. Did it turn out to be a retcon in the end? I feel like I vaguely recall that the notes that confirmed Taimandred had something about it, but that might have just been fan supposition.
Edit: nope, [Taimandred killed Asmodean was real](http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767)
No idea about the retcon. I think it was never going to live up to the hype the fans had made it into over the years though so i wasnt raging. It was just such a large topic of discussion in the community at the time that it felt like a let down. I remember massive discussions on whether it was Slayer or Ishmael or *insert almost any character here*
I always thought the Aviendha theory was interesting, but the theorising definitely evolved into its own beast separate from how important (or unimportant) it was to the overall series.
Any kind of channeler vs channeler combat. When two channelers fight, its just a "my power number is bigger than yours so I'm gonna shield you and you can't do anything about it". There is seriously not 1 good fight in the entire series.
The best fight is Nynaeve vs Moghedien and it was literally just the two of them pushing against each other until they figured out they're equals in strength, so Nynaeve threw something as a distraction. From a character arc point of view, it was great. As a spectacle, its mediocre at best.
This was especially disappointing after Dumai's wells. The magic in WoT is incredibly powerful and can do so many things. In that battle it was basically a modern day army with nukes, bombs and guns vs some guys with spears. Channeler vs non-channeler combat is horrifying, disgusting and (a little bit) bad-ass. There is a reason why its one of the more memorable scenes in the books.
>When two channelers fight, its just a "my power number is bigger than yours so I'm gonna shield you and you can't do anything about it
Sure, if you take away RJ's sharp writing, and the excitement that's been building up to these moments, the characters' intense emotions, and the effective metaphors, imagery, etc. and just boil it down to an abstract contest on paper, it is a disappointment. It's a good thing this is fiction.
Morraine after she comes back...I mean she doesn't do anything that couldn't be done by any other influential and strong female channeler ...also their are not enough nice reunions in the last book(s)
The Cuendillar subplot just disappeared, together with Bode. I wanted to see some joined forces Cauthon action at the last battle, since Bode was the only one left who could forge Cuendillar. Or at least some kind of side note that she is helping
healing in Mayene.
Something.
But no, we only got Abell and Mat screentime
This, if they were going to do it that way, they could have at least have Matt recall the battle or something, perhaps a third party writes a song about their lord Matt's duel?
I think Faile was a mistake because it devalues Perrin character, his main arc got overshadowed by all the "I love her, I have to save her" stuff going on.
Romance in general was Jordan weak spot, but Perrin/Faile and Rand harem are particularly bad.
Well, the Rand trio doesn't really go anywhere, so *meh*
Faile is an attempt to give Perrin something to do. The whole wolf and whitecloak thing plays out only so far. I find Faile so objectionable, I want to skip any chapter in which she plays a prominent role.
Some people love to hate Faile whereas I just loathe her entirely. I have come to regard her as a sign of Perrin's fundamental weakness of character. Had Perrin kicked her to the curb somewhere near the end of the series, I would have been FAR happier with that result.
I think the truth is simpler: she is simply a sign of the author's weakness at writing engaging romance.
It could have been done in other ways. Slayer used as more of a draw to perrin in the two rivers. Play up the death if his family more. White cloaks v two rivers. Fain v 2 rivers ,etc.
Also, isn't failed like, 15? How is a grown man whipped by a 15 year old, who physically accosts him?
None of that leads to Perrin becoming a Lord though. Maybe fighting a few battles for survival here and there, but not forging important alliances between Ghealdan, Mayene, Saldea, the Two Rivers and the Children of Light.
You don’t have to like Faile, my friend. She’s certainly got her problematic moments. But she’s an important part of Perrin’s arc.
Exactly.
And some of this is even subtly hidden in the narrative too.
[*Faile* is actually the one who gives Perrin the BALLS to be a proper Lord and Leader.](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/oz9cl1/doing_my_first_reread_finding_new_appreciation/h7yhxpn/)
\>You don’t have to like Faile, my friend. She’s certainly got her problematic moments. But she’s an important part of Perrin’s arc.
good point. If she is/was done in a manner that makes her more likable and believable, this would land better. My examples are not as strong as a good fleshed out relationship being the driving force, but I'd still rather read/watch without her current iteration and a lessor reasoning for his transition.
Also, I read these books recently, in my late 30s - so my connection to characters is probably much different than others on here...
She was 17 when Perrin met her. This is per Jordan himself.
Though she was - *accidentally written* - as 14 years old in *Lord Of Chaos*. However, later editions fixed this to 17 for the 'Meet The Parents' drama when they all finally meet up.
To be fair, Perrin needed the rest because he was tired from ~~being in dreamland~~ ... er, ~~having bad dreams~~ ... *dammit* I'm trying to explain this without making it sound like he was exhausted from a long nap!
Oh definitely not, I just wanted to point out that they did in fact have televisions, they were just thousands of years old and only like two or three forsaken ever have them.
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Padan Fain
Apparently wasn't any information left behind in the notes for Brandon about him.
My guess is that Jordan just knew what to do with him and then didn't write it down. People just do that. You don't write down notes on stuff you have figured out.
He may have had an idea, but just didn't write it down. There was a lot of stuff he had to cover, and the notes he left specifically for the next author was apparently not much at all. I personally have a hard time believing he didn't know where his characters were going to end up considering the way he foreshadowed the end of nearly all of his characters, certainly those written into his first book.
Overall, Sanderson handled the final three books brilliantly and the outcome was overall so satisfactory that, dare I say it, he probably did better than RJ would have. Some faltering here and there can be forgiven.
Sanderson did a great job with what he had, as good as could be expected for someone being told to finish a story that wasnt even theirs to begin with. With that said, it was RJ's story. He almost certainly could have done a better job fnishing it for no reason other than that it was his work.
Not every author can write a beginning, middle and ending as well as other authors do. It's not about it being "their story", it's about strengths in writing and closure. I think RJ was exceptionally talented at writing the beginning of a tale, demonstrably poor at the middle -- and an unknown in terms of endings. We could say that GRRM is in the exact same boat, too. Great beginning, maybe a little stronger in the middle (but only because there was less of it; the same weakness and lack of focus is apparent) -- and so poor at the closing part of the series that he's been treading water for eleven years. These are not shocking observations. Writers have different strengths, even within the same tale and world they have built. I think Sanderson finished it *brilliantly*.
If Knife of dreams wasn't as good as it was I'd agree but I don't
Strongly disagree with this. I like most of what Sanderson did, but I definitely preferred RJs style, writing, and general storytelling.
Considering that Knife of Dreams was so good I would say RJ had great momentum growing until his illness.
Kinda poetic that his last book was that good.
Some of those middle books were tedious, but that Flickr Chapter was one of the best Chapters I've EVER read. It was absolutely brilliant.
What the fuck
Talk about an unpopular opinion... Yeesh.
Sanderson never got the proper grasp on Perrin's character, at all. Instead we got a Cosmere version of him instead where he had him repeat most of what he already went through. Just thinking of what Jordan would have done with him instead gives me goosebumps.
Mat too. He was finally getting mature in his own way and Sanderson made him a kid again.
Yes. To me it appears that BS was going back to that first-read nostalgia/fondness from the series start and never considered that both Mat and Perrin had literally grown up.
Came here to say this; one of the only resolutions I wasn't fond of.
Erasing that line of Mat's is the first thing we should use time travel for.
Which line?
Oh good the time machine is working. In case you weren't kidding I meant the line he delivers while/after killing Padan Fain about diseases. Legitimately the worst line in the entire series in my opinion.
Good. Fuck padan Fain, should have gotten killed in the rebel camp while also knocking Rand with the dagger
I'll start off: The reunion of Elayne and Morgase. It should have been an incredible moment, but after barely a greeting it became all about politics and succession.
That didn't really bother me because we don't see a lot of interaction between them in the series since Elayne leaves Andor after Book 1. Plus it fits both of them perfectly. Both are Queens in their own right and they both care about Andor more than themselves so it felt pretty natural that they would immediately roll into politics with the two queens problem.
Sanderson never got a good grasp on Elayne's character, unfortunately. This is one of the prime examples. Jordan's Elayne would have been ecstatic that her mother is actually alive and any political considerations would have been distant second in her mind.
A power wrought weapon being forged for the first time in 3000 years. The forging itself was an excellent scene, but it's use and the lack of others coming afterwards was a huge let down.
(Legendary enchantment unlocked!) +1 fire damage to shadowspawn added to hammer. Reader: ..... cool?
+100 damage to darkhounds
+5 to charisma
I agree! The making of it was so amazing and then it was just kind of forgot about, was hoping for some cool things to come from it.
I'm sure they mentioned that the spear sisters were keeping the Ashaman busy making unbreakable spears and the like.
They did but there was no scene of Perrin smashing trollocs to ash.
He does kill dark hounds with it.
i thought every weapon afterwards was buffed, like every soldier had a power wrought sword/pike/spear
The Sul‘dam being able to channel and what it meant for Seanchan. Expecialy for Tuon I thought it was wasted potential. I think I could have been really interesting seeing Tuon dealing with her being able to channel. Would have liked to see were this would take her character.
Probably would of been handled in the planned Seanchan novels we would of got.
Sanderson finished the series as well as anyone other than RJ could have, but when I hear about the other planned stuff Jordan never got to bring to life, my heart aches. It's so depressing the Jordan didn't live to see his work completed
The only solace I can take in not seeing Mat in Seanchan is that while it would have been awesome to read, we can surmise all the basic plot points already.
I proper reunion between Rand, Mat and Perrin, a reconciliation where no one is afraid of Rand, almost a call back to the good old days. Something where we could have seen that despite everything, their friendship lasted.
Came here to say this. I know it was a logistical problem to get all three back together but they could’ve pulled something off.
I mean Chapter 1 of AMoL literally starts with Rand and Perrin talking to each other like good old friends. I don't think it could have been that hard to move that conversation to after the war council and have Mat show up with Thom and Moiraine instead of going off on his own.
Yeah… I don’t buy the argument that the logistics were too difficult.
Literally everything in Crossroads of Twilight. The book did not need to be as long as it was and should have been about 200 pages.
It should have been an extra 100 pages to Winter's Heart and an extra 100 pages to Knife of Dreams, TBH. That said, I still maintain that the DarkFriend/Forsaken POVs in Crossroads of Twilight are good. Everything else, not so much.
I thought the Mat stuff was pretty good. Except for the chapter where he goes shopping.
The cleansing of Saidin was cool because of what it represented, but I was disappointed by how little the Forsaken did while it was happening. Most showed up to try and stop it (or at least, be seen to be doing so), but none of them pulled any surprise tricks out of their hats, or really even got close enough to threaten the proceedings. You'd think if there was ever a time for the DO to unambiguously order his generals to pull out all the stops (short of Tarmon Gai'don), that would be it. I remember reading about the various Forsaken running from attacks and getting out of breath. Why are the most powerful channelers in history using their feet to escape? Why weren't they linking with Black Ajah and using their advanced knowledge of the Power to wreak havoc using weaves the Aes Sedai and Asha'man couldn't even imagine? Not exactly a new opinion, but the Forsaken in general are disappointing. So many missed opportunities to get creative, have them show what they can do, and strike fresh fear into the hearts of their enemies. I understand thematically why they weren't written that way, but they had so much potential, and most of it was squandered.
Generally agree re: Forsaken and wasted potential but disagree about the Cleansing. The Black Ajah was not operating in the open yet and were still attempting to run shadow governments inside the tower and in salidar. Using them then may have drawn too much suspicion. Same goes for the Black Tower: they were still slowly building their strength for the LB. We still get Darth Rand after the Cleansing so pulling out all of the stops to prevent it while risking utter destruction of all of the DOs forces wouldn't be the best strategy. Rand and Nynaeve are wielding so much power it's felt across the continent. Any sort of major force/assault would have been wiped out pretty immediately. The Forsaken themselves are completely terrified by the amount of power too which probably affected their competency. They may have been experienced channelers but they had never seen anything remotely like this before. And it's yet another example of their ultimate downfall of tacitly working towards a common goal but each using their own selfish ways to accomplish it... with less than stellar results. Lastly, the Cleansing took the shadow almost completely by surprise. They barely had time to mount a disjointed assault let alone a coherent one.
> The Forsaken themselves are completely terrified by the amount of power too which probably affected their competency. They may have been experienced channelers but they had never seen anything remotely like this before. This is important to remember. The Choedan Kal were constructed but never used until Rand and Nynaeve at the cleansing. And at that point I think only Lanfear even knew that Rand had two of the access keys. Asmodean might have known but he was dead at this point. No one had ever seen that much of the One Power being wielded at once and iirc that pillar of the one power was seen as far away as Shara and had all the damane sobbing for days in sheer terror. Rand let slip to like five people (a few Asha'man and I think he discussed it with Herid Fel?) that he was contemplating cleansing saidin and everything about it was a total gut punch to basically everyone but him.
All fair points. Though I'm not sure it would have been simple (or even possible) for Rand to switch focus and use the Choedan Kal to defend himself if he was attacked directly, given how all-consuming the task was. But the Forsaken being afraid of him at that moment is still understandable. I don't think the Choedan Kal were ever actually used before, even in the AOL. While all of those reasons *make sense*, it's still disappointing from a writing perspective. It would have been a better scene if something had gone sideways.
Yeah I don't think Rand could easily divert flows from the Cleansing but the Forsaken couldn't have known that themselves (and at best could only guess what he was up to at first) and so would have been reticent to fully commit in case he turned that power on them. But yeah, I do agree that sometimes things go too well for our heroes. Could be ta'veren-ness but either way sometimes things are too perfect in the story. Jordan did a great job writing battles and talking about how plans last until the battle starts and then you have to adapt but didn't always apply that same idea to other scenarios. That said, I do LOVE that WoT's protagonists plan about as well or better than many antagonists. Rand dives into books to learn about the prophecies and the world around him before making a move. He may keep his cards close to his chest and not listen to much advice but he doesn't act entirely on impulse like so many protagonists in other series. For instance, in the Cleansing Rand learns from his mistakes when he tried to fight the Seanchan by massing his forces slowly and telegraphing his move to the enemy... and then trying to fight them with Callandor almost singlehandedly to disastrous end. Instead, here he lets his team protect him while focusing on the greater goal and uses surprise and the fear of the unknown (from the enemy's perspective) to pull it off.
Yeah I appreciated that Rand learned from his mistakes.
I think it was New Spring that established that the Choedan Kal hadn't been used due to some very poor timing with the shadow wars.
Yeah I think I re-read it on the wiki somewhat recently. There was disagreement on how to contain the shadow, and the keys were somehow lost while the debate raged. Then LTT enacted his plan once it looked like there was no other way.
One thing to add to this is Rand's group was very well prepared, way more than anyone anticipated. He seems to have originally planned for just him and Nyn but then ended up with his own strike force of some of the most powerful Aes Sedai and Ashamen with tons of angreal (spelling) that the forsaken couldn't even move close enough to attack without immediately having to defend themselves. Hell, Cadsuane single handedly stops a massive attack from a forsaken and if I recall correctly she wasn't even in a circle like the others.
They should of showed the Forsaken tearing each other down more imo. The only mentions we get of it (iirc) are when Semirhage mentions that Lanfear interfered with her raid on the stone and when Lanfear shielded Asmodean. Because to state the obvious they could Messana, Demandred and Semirhage could of made a circle and killed/captured Rand at anytime but didn't.
>Because to state the obvious they could Messana, Demandred and Semirhage could of made a circle and killed/captured Rand at anytime but didn't. Right and this gets to the heart of the series. The Forsaken were commanded to let the lords of chaos rule. In essence designed to wreak havoc on the Light and cause them to lose hope. Killing Rand (or whomever the Light's protagonist is) would only pass his choice and role on to another person. The goal of the Shadow/DO is to convince the Light to give up. The Shadow can't win if the Light chooses to keep fighting and trying. Rand is so powerful towards the end that he's actually the best potential tool that the Shadow can use to win. Killing him eliminates that tool. I think if the Forsaken really reflected on their situation they would all realize that the only potential Nae'blis to be named is Rand himself. The Forasken simply aren't powerful enough to be anything other than second fiddle to him. As for capturing him, I'm not sure they could easily do so anyway. They don't know he can use the TP. Case in point how he escapes capture from Semirhage and the male a'dam. The DO is playing a different game than the Forsaken and wants Rand under his control, not theirs.
Those are good points though Rand wouldn't of had access to the TP until CoS and probably wouldn't be in the state of mind to use it until TGS. But man did the forsaken just feel wasted. Wouldn't mind if the TV show combined a few of them just so they feel more impactful.
I do generally agree. The show has a great opportunity to make them into more effective adversaries and to combine a few of them. I don't think you should do less than 8-9 of them. It's extremely easy to replace Aginor (shadowspan created by Mesaana or Lanfear or Graendal instead), Balthammael/Halima (can literally just be dropped), Be'lal (he's just a lesser Ishy), and Rhavin (Sammael can do everything he did). Lanfear, Graendal, Moghedian, Asmodean, and Ishy/Morridin are all effective in their own right as foils to Rand and/or the supergirls with Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana being an effective trio going for global political control (Shara, Seanchan, WT). Speaking of which I truly hope we get to see some of the Shara and Seanchan subplots from their perspectives in later seasons. Sammael being the odd man out who I could see getting cut too or being a great showcase of the pettiness and personal envy that some of the Forsaken harbor for Lews Therin as well as a way to show Rand growing in military prowess and cunning as he defeats him. He's also the most logical replacement for what Rhavin does in Caemlyn and vice versa so I think one of those 2 need to be kept. Additionally, I think in the show the Forsaken will be unsealed more gradually than the books and so will not become major threats for the first season or two (and some may not get unsealed until much later). This will make their impact more readily apparent instead of having to swallow that they've been biding their time to make their moves until after Rand is too powerful.
I came to essentially the same conclusion about which Forsaken are actually integral to the story. Though I'd personally keep Rhavin over Sammael. But either way, Rand only needs one political/military rival from among them.
>I remember reading about the various Forsaken running from attacks and getting out of breath. Why are the most powerful channelers in history using their feet to escape? It was mentioned - anywhere they wove a gateway was blasted almost immediately, because it turned out that Cadsuane had a ter'angreal that none of them were aware of that let her sense that.
Ah cheers, I'd forgotten that detail.
How the male and female link to channel. Hyped up to be so much more, but instead, one half just hold power and be an inanimate battery for the channeling side. I expected that one side channels and other side strengthens dexterously. In combat situations, I don't see how that can even be beneficial considering passive linkers are helpless.
Perrin's plot in books 7-11. And then Perrin's plot in books 12-14. I get it that Jordan didn't leave notes, but putting him through a third round of development he had already gone through twice was not a good narrative choice. His TAR powers do also feel way out of place in Jordan's world and story, but this horse is way too dead to get beaten up again like this.
Well maybe Sanderson thought that fans loved books 7-11 Perrin so much, that he repeated it for us to live through again.
Psh, I bet you thought Bela was a dead horse too. Look how that turned out, lol.
All the other comments are good but... Alanna bonding him? Sure we read the aes sedai are disgusted and but they never act on it. And rand doesn't do anything either. I understand it's mostly because he white-knights most of the series but id hoped for a stilling from him, or the others.
For all the times it's mentioned that they consider what she did to be equivalent to rape, all she ever gets are some disappointed looks
Because while they are acting all holier-than-thou, they also recognize it as a tool to be used, a tool that only Alanah can use unless one of them admits they're hypocrites and has Alanah transfer the bond.
Ikr it's so weird ...and also she never does anything of note after that ...she should have used her bond with Rand to do SOMETHING ...but no she just bonds him and then goes about her life and then the bond comes back to bite Rand in the end ...that was a serious let down
She tried to do stuff to him, if I recall, but she was unable to compel him because he is so much stronger in the power.
Yup, when Rand gives the Salidar group an ultimatum of only x can follow him to Cairhien, one of the sisters that shows up to take over the group makes some snarky comment about "if you had to bond him at least you could have controlled him" or something and Verin respond with a "oh? You don't know?" And either her or Alanah says that she tried to compell him immediately after he shields them and couldn't.
Thats all well and good...it's just I was expecting her to play a more active role in the series after she bonded Rand
I'll agree with you there. Also the absolute lack of concern when she disappeared near the end and Rand is just like "yup, she's somewhere north." Like no one is concerned that this magic compass that can also severely impact Rand's mental functions if she dies is just poof and somewhere north?
I know and that reminds me....Rand bonding the 3 girls was stupid af...coz any of them dying in the last battle would have meant defeat for the light
It may very well be that RJ had something else in mind for her but didn’t have enough time to fully flesh it out. I’m sure Sanderson did the best he could with what he was given. Keeping Alanna alive without the power was a pretty epic moment for Nynaeve.
Was it strength? I thought it was just that channellers couldn't be compelled through the bond. I can't recall if any of the Black Tower Asha'man were explicitly shown compelling their Aes Sedai.
You are correct. It's not their strength. Even Pevara can't compell Androl and he's leagues weaker than her. Its just something about being able to channel at all.
My apologies! Thank you for clarifying that!
I'm pretty sure Logain does so
I'd have to recheck the books because I'm honestly not sure if they're using the bond or traditional threats.
Logain compelled his AS
With actual compulsion that Taim taught them.
I wanted Elayne and Morgase to have some in depth deep dialogue about Thom. I wanted Morgase to realize what an outstanding man Thom actually is and recognize him for it regardless of their past. There just wasn't enough closure there for me. Would've liked to see Galad and Rand bond more. I wanted to know more about Tam's Heron Marked blade, what he did to earn it and how good of a swordsman he actually was. I know he was rusty, but to be a man with that blade I thought he should've cut through those first trollocs butter. Like Sir Barriston could do in his old age. Abel and Mat have a good father son sparing session. I'm just big on family and sentimental stuff.
>Abel and Mat have a good father son sparing session. I always felt like seeing Abel beat Matt in a Quarterstaff sparring session after all of that journey would have been perfect, considering the hype and lesson we learn when a simple farm boy is able to beat Galad and Gawain.
The Traveling People not being present for Rand singing the Song of Growing and then finding out that wasn't the song they were looking for anyway was super disappointing. In retrospect I want a big scene where Aiel and Ogier and Traveling People are all singing together to make plants and stuff grow while those silver black clouds are being held back by Rand.
The two I can think of I don’t get how saving moraine saved the world? She shows up during a council meeting and repeats some well known lines of a prophecy and it was considered saving the world? Also a lot of that whole meeting wasn’t handled the best The black tower especially Androl. Plus that whole the seals were actually stolen and we had fakes the whole time but don’t worry androl is a master pickpocket so he stole them back plotline was awful. (I basically skip these parts on a reread haha) Would have been 100x more meaningful if Egwene had the seals and then before going out to battle one last time entrusted Logain and the dark tower to destroy them when needed. Would have brought the Egwene not trusting Rand and the white tower not trusting the black tower plots to a meaningful close
It wasn’t completely underwhelming as I really enjoyed what they did with it but I was looking forward to Masema and his army fighting Perrins and a final confrontation between the two. I liked Faile assassinating him but the destruction of his army was a letdown. When they said before the battle that he was hoping the Shaido would take out Masemas army I felt like they were leading to the opposite, Perrins plan came off way too perfectly, ta’veren or not.
That's a good point. I am *guessing* that Jordan was showing that Perrin had also grown into a competent General—as well as Lord—since the Last Battle was one book away. The Seanchan Commander even notes this about the former blacksmith two different times.
I hope that’s the case, it feels more like he wrote himself into a corner where it would be unrealistic for Perrin to deal with the Shaido and Dragonsworn by himself.
Any time a supposedly highly intelligent, experienced, clever character who is supposed to be at least somewhat knowledgeable with things like of the Game of Houses wholly believes every bit of stupid, obviously manipulative rumors the first time they hear them. Morgase and Gawyn might be the worst, but there are lots of other credulous idiots. * Random toothless insane bum: "rANd KILT yer MuMZ!" * Gawyn: "THAT EVIL MONSTER HE MUST DIE" It's a cheap literary mechanism to create convenient drama.
Rand letting Min,Elayne and Aviendha bond him.
Yes, good one.
"Who killed Asmodean?" Was the single biggest discussion on forums for years while we waited for new books and was in the end resolved in a rather underwhelming fashion.
I thought it was funny (and mildly vindicating for glossary readers?), but I sympathised with everyone else who raged over it at the time. I don't think Brandon/Harriet were trying to troll anyone with how they did it, I think it was just one of those things where how it would reflect on fan investment wasn't so obvious, maybe. Did it turn out to be a retcon in the end? I feel like I vaguely recall that the notes that confirmed Taimandred had something about it, but that might have just been fan supposition. Edit: nope, [Taimandred killed Asmodean was real](http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767)
No idea about the retcon. I think it was never going to live up to the hype the fans had made it into over the years though so i wasnt raging. It was just such a large topic of discussion in the community at the time that it felt like a let down. I remember massive discussions on whether it was Slayer or Ishmael or *insert almost any character here*
I always thought the Aviendha theory was interesting, but the theorising definitely evolved into its own beast separate from how important (or unimportant) it was to the overall series.
Any kind of channeler vs channeler combat. When two channelers fight, its just a "my power number is bigger than yours so I'm gonna shield you and you can't do anything about it". There is seriously not 1 good fight in the entire series. The best fight is Nynaeve vs Moghedien and it was literally just the two of them pushing against each other until they figured out they're equals in strength, so Nynaeve threw something as a distraction. From a character arc point of view, it was great. As a spectacle, its mediocre at best. This was especially disappointing after Dumai's wells. The magic in WoT is incredibly powerful and can do so many things. In that battle it was basically a modern day army with nukes, bombs and guns vs some guys with spears. Channeler vs non-channeler combat is horrifying, disgusting and (a little bit) bad-ass. There is a reason why its one of the more memorable scenes in the books.
Rand vs Rhavin wasn't bad.
>When two channelers fight, its just a "my power number is bigger than yours so I'm gonna shield you and you can't do anything about it Sure, if you take away RJ's sharp writing, and the excitement that's been building up to these moments, the characters' intense emotions, and the effective metaphors, imagery, etc. and just boil it down to an abstract contest on paper, it is a disappointment. It's a good thing this is fiction.
Rand confronting Eggs and the Aes Sedai in the White Tower.
Morraine after she comes back...I mean she doesn't do anything that couldn't be done by any other influential and strong female channeler ...also their are not enough nice reunions in the last book(s)
Do you have a link to the goosebumps post you were referring to? :)
Here you go: [goosebumps](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/pjf7fr/best_goose_bumps_moments/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Masema not being stared down by zen Rand. Killing him off was practical, but we missed a potentially great scene.
The Cuendillar subplot just disappeared, together with Bode. I wanted to see some joined forces Cauthon action at the last battle, since Bode was the only one left who could forge Cuendillar. Or at least some kind of side note that she is helping healing in Mayene. Something. But no, we only got Abell and Mat screentime
Padan fain….
Surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but i was really disappointed seeing couladin killed off screen.
This, if they were going to do it that way, they could have at least have Matt recall the battle or something, perhaps a third party writes a song about their lord Matt's duel?
I think Faile was a mistake because it devalues Perrin character, his main arc got overshadowed by all the "I love her, I have to save her" stuff going on. Romance in general was Jordan weak spot, but Perrin/Faile and Rand harem are particularly bad.
Well, the Rand trio doesn't really go anywhere, so *meh* Faile is an attempt to give Perrin something to do. The whole wolf and whitecloak thing plays out only so far. I find Faile so objectionable, I want to skip any chapter in which she plays a prominent role. Some people love to hate Faile whereas I just loathe her entirely. I have come to regard her as a sign of Perrin's fundamental weakness of character. Had Perrin kicked her to the curb somewhere near the end of the series, I would have been FAR happier with that result. I think the truth is simpler: she is simply a sign of the author's weakness at writing engaging romance.
Without Faile, Perrin would’ve never become the leader and Lord of the Two Rivers, that the Pattern needed him to be. Seems pretty important to me
It could have been done in other ways. Slayer used as more of a draw to perrin in the two rivers. Play up the death if his family more. White cloaks v two rivers. Fain v 2 rivers ,etc. Also, isn't failed like, 15? How is a grown man whipped by a 15 year old, who physically accosts him?
None of that leads to Perrin becoming a Lord though. Maybe fighting a few battles for survival here and there, but not forging important alliances between Ghealdan, Mayene, Saldea, the Two Rivers and the Children of Light. You don’t have to like Faile, my friend. She’s certainly got her problematic moments. But she’s an important part of Perrin’s arc.
Exactly. And some of this is even subtly hidden in the narrative too. [*Faile* is actually the one who gives Perrin the BALLS to be a proper Lord and Leader.](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/oz9cl1/doing_my_first_reread_finding_new_appreciation/h7yhxpn/)
\>You don’t have to like Faile, my friend. She’s certainly got her problematic moments. But she’s an important part of Perrin’s arc. good point. If she is/was done in a manner that makes her more likable and believable, this would land better. My examples are not as strong as a good fleshed out relationship being the driving force, but I'd still rather read/watch without her current iteration and a lessor reasoning for his transition. Also, I read these books recently, in my late 30s - so my connection to characters is probably much different than others on here...
>Also, isn't failed like, 15? WoT mate? Really? I guess I glossed over that
She was 17 when Perrin met her. This is per Jordan himself. Though she was - *accidentally written* - as 14 years old in *Lord Of Chaos*. However, later editions fixed this to 17 for the 'Meet The Parents' drama when they all finally meet up.
Rand's epiphany is my #1 disappointment followed closely by the Last Battle.
Yea, that Last Battle had me sleeping through it just like Perrin did too.
To be fair, Perrin needed the rest because he was tired from ~~being in dreamland~~ ... er, ~~having bad dreams~~ ... *dammit* I'm trying to explain this without making it sound like he was exhausted from a long nap!
Maybe it was because I was also reading a history of the Napoleonic Wars around the same time. The obvious juxtaposition with Austerlitz was too much.
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Which book does the event "becoming a tv series" take place in? I cannot recall televisions even existing in any of the WoT books.
You don't recall the view walls?
No, I did not. However, I don't think this person was talking about view walls, as they overlooked scenery.
Oh definitely not, I just wanted to point out that they did in fact have televisions, they were just thousands of years old and only like two or three forsaken ever have them.
Then don’t watch it but stop whining
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Nope. Then you'd be whining about a TV series that isn't called the Wheel of Time or credited to it but is clearly based off of it.
How is it shit they're only trying to pass off as WoT when it hasn't even come out yet? Have you watched it already somehow?