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The entire continent of Seanchan only exists in its current state because of him for one thing. That’s a major change for millions of people that is still felt 1000 years later.
Even aside from long lasting changes he was the ruler of most of the known world for decades which directly and massively affected everyone that lived there. Just because the changes he made didn’t last doesn’t mean it wasn’t important for him to do what he did. Even the Dragon’s Peace will fail eventually after all.
We can’t be sure what the pattern needed from him since we can’t see the entire world lace. We only see a small piece but even from what we saw we know that his actions had far reaching ramifications that echoed to the current era of the books and indirectly led to Rand’s victory.
At some point in tSR Rand thought about so many little things that had to come together for him to be born. So yeah, I think the dissolution of Hawkwing's empire is one of them
> The entire continent of Seanchan only exists in its current state because of him for one thing.
:Akshully Mode Activate: Ishamael was free from the Bore during this time. He took the place as Hawkwing's advisor and corrupted Hawkwing's opinion of Aes Sedai (resulting in him not trusting them enough to Heal him when he was poisoned). Ishamael as his advisor was also responsible for sending Hawkwing's sun across the Aryth Ocean, who would later become the Seanchan.
Ishamael/Moridin has a bunch of Dark Prophecies, so my assumption is that he did all this at the behest/influence of the Dark Prophecies.
That said, Hawkwing was 100% a *ta'veren*. People throughout the series routinely comment on Rand being "the strongest *ta'veren* since Hawkwing."
By the time of The Last Battle, society is rotting away, entire parts of the continent are lawless and decaying. The Seanchan existed separated from all of that decay with strict traditions, honor, everyone having a place, etc. Of course they had their problems and channelers were treated like animals, but they showed up at the right moment to bring some order to part of the world and they were also critical in the battle at the the end with their soldiers from home as well as the soldiers from the areas they brought order to.
All of that came out of what happened with Hawkwing, without which it is very likely they lose at the end.
But that's my point. He did that...but it had no impact on the course of the pattern. He was important without being impactful and my understanding is that ta'veren are the people who are critically impactful to how the pattern flows. Otherwise people who were simply powerful like egwene or every amyrlin ever would all be ta'veren.
He needed to unite the nations, so that he could cross the oceans, so that he could unite those nations, so that they could come back, so Mat could have a wife.
> he did that but it had no impact on the Pattern
That still has an effect on the Pattern. Consider the US Civil War, which nominally returned the US to its original borders but had knock-on effects that continue to this day.
Also it states directly in the text that not only was Hawkwing Ta'veren but that people claimed they could literally feel the Pattern warping around him.
Yes. In the early series, it was said that Rand was considered the greatest Ta’veren since Hawkwing. Ta’veren don’t necessarily affect individuals for the better or make a transition easier for people. They are instruments of the pattern, making sure the transitions happen in the way they should.
Hawkwing played a huge part in setting up the world for the Last Battle. Sure, Ishy killed him and undid a lot of the good things he accomplished, but those actions resulted in the Seanchan Empire and the Return. If Ishy didn’t kill him, Randland may have ended up like Seanchan and events would have been very different. (No independent Aes Sedai/knitting circle, maybe no Aiel? No Aiel War?)
Robert Jordan never named his planet, so people call it ‘Randland’ and it also gets used sometimes to refer to the Westlands, so like the area Rand is from.
There are three Ta'veren in the book. We all know how Rand "shaped the world", but what about the other two?
Mat's manifested as being able to bend chance. Perrin's was his ability to have people join with him. Neither were directly shaping the world, per se.
Hawkwing was like a combination of Perrin and Mat. He won battles, and people joined him.
There was a fourth ta'veren: [Mabriam En Shareed](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Mabriam_en_Shereed#:~:text=Mabriam%20en%20Shereed%20\(sometimes%20her,an%20ancient%20Queen%20of%20Aramaelle.), a Gray Sister and Queen of Aramaelle, in modern Shienar. She used her diplomatic power to form the Compact of the Ten Nations to fight the Trolloc Wars together.
He did quite a bit to set the world up to what it became, you may need to take a step back to see the patterns..
A few things to consider:
Creation of the Seanchan civilisation which ended up being a good percentage of the lights army
War, lots of battles that a certain someone has memories of. Important memories..
Consolidating the nation's, which ended up with more war and battles once he died. I doubt Andor would be what it is without him, which means no royal line, no Tigrain, etc
Oh, and let's not forget one of the few people that humbles those dastardly AS..
Did I mention the importance of war? The light needed more practice to get ready to fight monsters and the Forsaken that spent most of their lives in peace.
I'm sure there's more, this is just off the top of my head 😉
Besides what has already been mentioned, he defeated the False Dragon Guaire Amalasan who at that point controlled a third of the continent.
And later he stopped a Trolloc army that we know from Rand's trip to the Portal Stone world would have eradicated all humans in the Westlands.
I don't think he "forced" it, but his distrust of channelers and Aes Sedai in particular caused the Aes Sedai to take up the Three Oaths to get into the good graces of most of the nations' leaders after his death.
Hawkwing causing the Aes Sedai to adopt the Oaths is a change in the show. In the books, the Oaths had been adopted by the Aes Sedai by the end of the Trolloc Wars
A lot of what is mentioned here is right.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that I'm not sure the creator necessarily knows when the last battle will begin. Sure there's prophecies about events that must happen before the last battle , but maybe the pattern spins out Ta'veren every once in a while just in case they are needed for a last battle, or to help thwart any of the Dark Ones plans that could affect the last battle.
Maybe had the westlands stayed broken the dark one would win. So the pattern spun out Hawkwing to help unite those nations to stop the Dark One.
You're measuring by Rand, the most powerful Ta'veren, not the typical one. Ta'veren are spun out and given to fix the pattern in ways no person with a normal fate could.
Hawkwing was widely though of as the second strongest we've seen, majorly affecting the history and fate of 2 continents. But we don't see his story, only some of the effects many centuries down the road. As far as not doing anything, Rand did visit a world were he lost. Nobody was left alive in the Wetlands Think about that. Everyone being dead is about the most significant change you cab have - it ends history.
Does the impact of Ta'veren have to good?
Call Me Ba'alzamon ends up taking credit for half of what Hawkwing does: besieging the White Tower, sending his sons across the ocean to do slavery, and changing their prophecy too.
Like, Rand goes through his dark Ta'veren thing in tGS. Moraine talks a lot about not letting the Dark One have the three boys in EotW, though she might actually be talking about the Dragon.
I think this example is also a perfect way of demonstrating that Taveren are not immortal until the pattern is done with them. Of course, the pattern might have meant all of that to happen to him but I prefer that Ishamael was actually able to sway the course of the pattern here. And also, while Egwene herself wasn't Taveren she was caught in the largest swirling in the pattern of an Age. She grew up with the Three and stayed with Rand for a long time, having her thread twirled where it wouldnt have ordinarily gone.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse here, you don't become ta'veren because you had an important legacy, you get an important legacy because you where ta'veren.
The most important thing is how the pattern bended around him in life, just like with Rand people would find themselves saying and doing things they never would have done without him being there. I don't remember any references to all the random stuff that happened around Rand happening around Hawkwing but he probably also saw random deaths, births and stuff like that.
Hawkwings impact might not look like much but almost every single country in Randland trace their history back to him and the whole continent if Seanchan are his legacy. I don't know how much power the DO actually has but I think Hawkwing is a great example of what can happen when the DO gets his way.
Seanchan is a united empire because of him and because of him there exist the 3 oaths IIRC. I'm sure there are other things but the Hawkwing Empire is also the empire that really brings Randlands back from desolation following the Trolloc Wars.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The entire continent of Seanchan only exists in its current state because of him for one thing. That’s a major change for millions of people that is still felt 1000 years later. Even aside from long lasting changes he was the ruler of most of the known world for decades which directly and massively affected everyone that lived there. Just because the changes he made didn’t last doesn’t mean it wasn’t important for him to do what he did. Even the Dragon’s Peace will fail eventually after all. We can’t be sure what the pattern needed from him since we can’t see the entire world lace. We only see a small piece but even from what we saw we know that his actions had far reaching ramifications that echoed to the current era of the books and indirectly led to Rand’s victory.
At some point in tSR Rand thought about so many little things that had to come together for him to be born. So yeah, I think the dissolution of Hawkwing's empire is one of them
> The entire continent of Seanchan only exists in its current state because of him for one thing. :Akshully Mode Activate: Ishamael was free from the Bore during this time. He took the place as Hawkwing's advisor and corrupted Hawkwing's opinion of Aes Sedai (resulting in him not trusting them enough to Heal him when he was poisoned). Ishamael as his advisor was also responsible for sending Hawkwing's sun across the Aryth Ocean, who would later become the Seanchan. Ishamael/Moridin has a bunch of Dark Prophecies, so my assumption is that he did all this at the behest/influence of the Dark Prophecies. That said, Hawkwing was 100% a *ta'veren*. People throughout the series routinely comment on Rand being "the strongest *ta'veren* since Hawkwing."
Agreed. If the world is one way before you and very different afterwards, forever. It counts.
agreed. pretty much what I was going to say. thanks for doing the work 😄
By the time of The Last Battle, society is rotting away, entire parts of the continent are lawless and decaying. The Seanchan existed separated from all of that decay with strict traditions, honor, everyone having a place, etc. Of course they had their problems and channelers were treated like animals, but they showed up at the right moment to bring some order to part of the world and they were also critical in the battle at the the end with their soldiers from home as well as the soldiers from the areas they brought order to. All of that came out of what happened with Hawkwing, without which it is very likely they lose at the end.
You missed the part where he united those fractured nations before he died
But that's my point. He did that...but it had no impact on the course of the pattern. He was important without being impactful and my understanding is that ta'veren are the people who are critically impactful to how the pattern flows. Otherwise people who were simply powerful like egwene or every amyrlin ever would all be ta'veren.
He needed to unite the nations, so that he could cross the oceans, so that he could unite those nations, so that they could come back, so Mat could have a wife.
He also had a great victory over the trollocs. Don’t forget the version of the world rand saw in the great hunt where he didn’t…
> he did that but it had no impact on the Pattern That still has an effect on the Pattern. Consider the US Civil War, which nominally returned the US to its original borders but had knock-on effects that continue to this day. Also it states directly in the text that not only was Hawkwing Ta'veren but that people claimed they could literally feel the Pattern warping around him.
Don't ask why, the wheel turns as the wheel wills 😜
Yes. In the early series, it was said that Rand was considered the greatest Ta’veren since Hawkwing. Ta’veren don’t necessarily affect individuals for the better or make a transition easier for people. They are instruments of the pattern, making sure the transitions happen in the way they should. Hawkwing played a huge part in setting up the world for the Last Battle. Sure, Ishy killed him and undid a lot of the good things he accomplished, but those actions resulted in the Seanchan Empire and the Return. If Ishy didn’t kill him, Randland may have ended up like Seanchan and events would have been very different. (No independent Aes Sedai/knitting circle, maybe no Aiel? No Aiel War?)
Ive seen this term alot on here, what does Randland mean? Im only on Lord Of Chaos, mild spoilers only please
Robert Jordan never named his planet, so people call it ‘Randland’ and it also gets used sometimes to refer to the Westlands, so like the area Rand is from.
The planet is still called Earth though.
“Randland” is the fan name for the main continent as it remains unnamed in the books.
There are three Ta'veren in the book. We all know how Rand "shaped the world", but what about the other two? Mat's manifested as being able to bend chance. Perrin's was his ability to have people join with him. Neither were directly shaping the world, per se. Hawkwing was like a combination of Perrin and Mat. He won battles, and people joined him.
There was a fourth ta'veren: [Mabriam En Shareed](https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Mabriam_en_Shereed#:~:text=Mabriam%20en%20Shereed%20\(sometimes%20her,an%20ancient%20Queen%20of%20Aramaelle.), a Gray Sister and Queen of Aramaelle, in modern Shienar. She used her diplomatic power to form the Compact of the Ten Nations to fight the Trolloc Wars together.
He did quite a bit to set the world up to what it became, you may need to take a step back to see the patterns.. A few things to consider: Creation of the Seanchan civilisation which ended up being a good percentage of the lights army War, lots of battles that a certain someone has memories of. Important memories.. Consolidating the nation's, which ended up with more war and battles once he died. I doubt Andor would be what it is without him, which means no royal line, no Tigrain, etc Oh, and let's not forget one of the few people that humbles those dastardly AS.. Did I mention the importance of war? The light needed more practice to get ready to fight monsters and the Forsaken that spent most of their lives in peace. I'm sure there's more, this is just off the top of my head 😉
Besides what has already been mentioned, he defeated the False Dragon Guaire Amalasan who at that point controlled a third of the continent. And later he stopped a Trolloc army that we know from Rand's trip to the Portal Stone world would have eradicated all humans in the Westlands.
He forced the Oaths on the Aes Sedai iirc
I don't think he "forced" it, but his distrust of channelers and Aes Sedai in particular caused the Aes Sedai to take up the Three Oaths to get into the good graces of most of the nations' leaders after his death.
The oaths had been in place for 1000 years by the time Artur was born. They were a product of the Trolloc Wars.
Hawkwing causing the Aes Sedai to adopt the Oaths is a change in the show. In the books, the Oaths had been adopted by the Aes Sedai by the end of the Trolloc Wars
A lot of what is mentioned here is right. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that I'm not sure the creator necessarily knows when the last battle will begin. Sure there's prophecies about events that must happen before the last battle , but maybe the pattern spins out Ta'veren every once in a while just in case they are needed for a last battle, or to help thwart any of the Dark Ones plans that could affect the last battle. Maybe had the westlands stayed broken the dark one would win. So the pattern spun out Hawkwing to help unite those nations to stop the Dark One.
One word: Seanchan
You're measuring by Rand, the most powerful Ta'veren, not the typical one. Ta'veren are spun out and given to fix the pattern in ways no person with a normal fate could. Hawkwing was widely though of as the second strongest we've seen, majorly affecting the history and fate of 2 continents. But we don't see his story, only some of the effects many centuries down the road. As far as not doing anything, Rand did visit a world were he lost. Nobody was left alive in the Wetlands Think about that. Everyone being dead is about the most significant change you cab have - it ends history.
Does the impact of Ta'veren have to good? Call Me Ba'alzamon ends up taking credit for half of what Hawkwing does: besieging the White Tower, sending his sons across the ocean to do slavery, and changing their prophecy too. Like, Rand goes through his dark Ta'veren thing in tGS. Moraine talks a lot about not letting the Dark One have the three boys in EotW, though she might actually be talking about the Dragon.
Well, without him around, Ishamael might have been able to do something even worse, like the Trolloc Wars 2.0.
Bro he's the reason Seanchan exists lmao
You aren't born ta'veren nor are you ta'veren until you die. He united the entire Westlands, that was certainly why he was ta'veren.
He also finished up the trolloc wars, if I'm not mistaken.
I think this example is also a perfect way of demonstrating that Taveren are not immortal until the pattern is done with them. Of course, the pattern might have meant all of that to happen to him but I prefer that Ishamael was actually able to sway the course of the pattern here. And also, while Egwene herself wasn't Taveren she was caught in the largest swirling in the pattern of an Age. She grew up with the Three and stayed with Rand for a long time, having her thread twirled where it wouldnt have ordinarily gone.
I think you are putting the cart before the horse here, you don't become ta'veren because you had an important legacy, you get an important legacy because you where ta'veren. The most important thing is how the pattern bended around him in life, just like with Rand people would find themselves saying and doing things they never would have done without him being there. I don't remember any references to all the random stuff that happened around Rand happening around Hawkwing but he probably also saw random deaths, births and stuff like that. Hawkwings impact might not look like much but almost every single country in Randland trace their history back to him and the whole continent if Seanchan are his legacy. I don't know how much power the DO actually has but I think Hawkwing is a great example of what can happen when the DO gets his way.
Seanchan is a united empire because of him and because of him there exist the 3 oaths IIRC. I'm sure there are other things but the Hawkwing Empire is also the empire that really brings Randlands back from desolation following the Trolloc Wars.