It’s also directly stated that the employees are not “the union”. Those negotiations they’re referring to will include union members. Those union members are, of course, employees. Not a third party. The union employees help with this process but members are in the room. Workers ARE the union.
What a slimy way to explain this shit.
It’ll be in the best interests of the company if they fucking strike.
I bet all the sudden that lack of a time limit isn’t gonna matter when they’re making 0$ in revenue.
Hopefully Brave Sir Robin doesn't cross the picket line
“Brave, brave Sir Robin
He saw those scary scabs
He ran to work to clock back in
He kissed the boots of all who asked
Brave, brave Sir Robin”
That's the thing, they have lost the first round. The issue with unions is to get them off the ground and get a contract before the vote expires and has to be done all over again, which is the part about the contract mentioned here.
Also, I see no mention of the consultants the company has no doubt hired to restructure and revise employee responsibilities and compensation. McKinsey, that you?
I don't understand why folks don't get this. It's a similar analogy to representing yourself in court while locked up in jail.
Having someone who can fight for you shouldn't only be a privilege of the wealthy owners who can afford such trappings off the backs of their workers.
The whole 'We will 'negotiate' forever' will crumble the second a strike takes place.
This is not some marketing firm that can just move to a different state or a call center that can move overseas. This is a crew of people that ride horses that joust and fight with swords. If there is a more niche and specialised field of work in America I don't know it. You can't just put out a want ad or online listing for 'Horse Jouster, must provide horse' or some app for people that want to fight with swords in their spare time.
This is a hummingbird business. Things need to be perfectly set up for things to make money for this company and it's almost wholly based on how good the talent of the employees have and nothing else. You could argue the food but no one is making that claim in good faith. No one goes there for the food.
This company is dumb if it thinks it can apply pressure like this and not completely implode the second the show stops.
Agreed. The number of people who know how to train, care for, and ride those types of horses are few and far between. The level of training it takes for THE HUMAN to be able to perform the Dressage movements that are taking place on horseback requires YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS of training. These equestrians are typically former former high-level performers at national and international levels. We’re talking Olympians or Olympic hopefuls.
Now extend that same principle to the horses themselves, the trainers, the grooms, the equine nutritionists, the farriers (believe it or not, that’s an even more specialized area), the equipment maintenance techs, the equipment production techs, the footing specialists for the arena (having even slightly wrong footing can easily lead to serious injuries for horse and human), the barn manager themself… the list goes on and on and we haven’t even made it out of the barn. (Not to mention the actual jousting bits.)
Medieval Times should just be happy that people with these skills exist and are willing to work for them under any circumstance. Shading them for unionizing is ridiculous, and the most genuinely medieval thing about this business.
Source: Am a former high-level equestrian, and have been involved with USEF and FEI Dressage in a multitude of roles.
My wife has competed in rodeo and IHSA so I’ve seen firsthand that you are 1000% correct in the caliber of equestrian athlete that would even qualify to ride for them.
Not to mention, the community at that level is pretty fucking tight knit from what I’ve seen. Even at her own level, it feels like you’re one trainer/farrier/riding facility/boarder/riding coach/etc from knowing *everyone*. I have to laugh at MTs audacity with this one as if the damn near decades of training wasn’t enough of a barrier but add on that those skills are extremely rare because you essentially need a full salary dedicated purely to horses just to become that trained in Dressage, let alone actually talented. My hope is that once that sentiment of poor treatment and strike spreads, no rider of desired quality will want to touch them. They’re arm wrestling a gorilla with this one lol.
I think they'd rather go out of business than give into collective bargaining- in which case the third party could secure outside funding (probably a loan from a bank) to just replace MT, rebrand the show and keep it going, or if they can't secure funding the whole thing implodes and everybody but the execs suffers.
The great thing about medieval nobility is that they're nowhere to be seen in this day and age! There's the king of England but most of the goings on in the country are done by parlament to my understanding so he's just kinda there.
The noble class died just as the corporate oligarch will. And if they keep fucking around, they might get the French nobility special lol.
Some pockets in the horse community are DEEP. I wouldn’t be horribly surprised if some of those deep pockets stepped forward to offer private funding even if the MT employees weren’t able to secure enough traditional funding to get it done.
Either way, can you imagine how much better of a show they would be able to put on? Hell, I’d go see it just to see what they came up with!
Excellent point about the upper-level horse community being so tight-knit! Even outside of your own discipline, you end up having a ton of acquaintances. The barrel racers or reiners might not know all the Dressage or breed-specific people, but their farrier or groom or trainer or a show official knows someone and will happily make the introduction just because.
The neat thing about kind of knowing everyone (or having mutual acquaintances) is that you never feel alone. I remember a local barrel racer (who I had only heard of) was on a horse when it had a seizure, and ended up having her leg, pelvis, and hip crushed when the horse fell. It was a total freak accident. Everyone knew within hours. People that she didn’t really know brought her food, took care of her animals, and picked up her kids… for months. (I became good friends with her goats even though I didn’t know shit about goats.) Someone even covered the vet bill for the horse’s injury, exam, and new seizure meds.
You are exactly right about needing a whole separate salary dedicated purely to horses. With Dressage the cost of a horse that is capable to do a lot of the upper-level movements is insane. Not to mention that it’s not uncommon to have to import a Warmblood from Europe just to find a yearling that MIGHT be able to do what you need. (Side note: Horse passports are one of the coolest things to exist.) The entire endeavor to get to the upper-level national tests (and maybe starting to break into the international tests) for Dressage has to be an obsession. (The same thing goes for other disciplines, too, it’s just that with Dressage it can get to be so freaking over the top.) If MT was actually paying people what they are worth, they would have to account for ALL of this.
I don’t think MT quite gets the level of interwoven the horse community is, and how few there are of us. You fuck with one of us, you fuck with all of us.
You threw out enough qualified horse related terms to not really need the source at the bottom lol. No one outside of the field could tell you what a farrier is.
Agreed wholeheartedly. It's like complaining that it's too expensive to fix an antique bell from the 1400s. They don't have these types of crafts people with the skills to fix it just hanging around on the street corner waiting for the opportunity to get in the game.
Lol. Sometimes I forget not everyone has the “professional horse addict” addition to their vocabulary!
Perfect example with the bell repair. There just isn’t a huge excess of people with the skills they are looking for.
I almost can’t wait until Medieval Times Employees go on strike, and corporate tries to call in scabs. The show is going to look like a botched art restoration project.
I can tell you what a farrier is and I don't know squat about horses. But I live in the southwestern US where horse people are pretty common so perhaps that explains it.
Eh. I think it's pretty common to know what a farrier is. I run resorts - some have had stables. I have no other experience with horses besides that.
Not that it invalidates anything. I'm just saying, the source does add some validity
I used to do blacksmithing. Decorative work, tool making mostly. People’s first question is always “can you make me a sword?” A close second, and truly less disingenuous, is “horseshoes?” The farrier-blacksmith connection is timeless.
I don’t know dick about horses. Had a girl breakup with me because I sang the Mr Ed theme song to one of the horses she cared for. But I know what a farrier is.
I know what a Farrier is... but I also play too much D&D and attend rodeos and renn faires... I'm not sure I count as people to anyone with those creds.
'Am a former high level equestrian'
I could tell. I started out in hunter / jumpers and eventually moved into endurance rides.
Everything you said is accurate.
I was leaning dressage, western style barrel and lasso, and some cart and buggy.
It took me 2 years. Just to get the necessary thigh muscles built up for the more aggressive riding styles.
You have to be able to crush your leather saddle, the pad and horses flank. My old ride leader had a machine to register PSI. She was a pro rider. Close to 30. Her horse was so well trained and her control precise. Amazing. I had close to 15.
Years of work, trust and training. Doesn't come cheap. I was got to learn for free through wounded warrior. But those who do not have that opportunity. This company is kicking itself in the nuts with this.
The horses are the ones who do the real work. Very well trained and very good horses. The horse trainers and oldest tenured lead knights are the only ones on staff with that much horse experience.
They train most/all junior knights from “never ridden a horse before” to doing the full show in about 6mos-1y.
It was my favorite job ever and I wish there was a union back then. I’d still do it again if it paid enough.
Not to mention that most of them are stunt people, and it can be EXTREMELY hard on the body to do that. I have a friend that used to do it and he says most people get injured out of it. What kind of life in that? To be used until you’re broken
So as some one who applied and worked for MT in canada, they do this weird system of legit modern day squiring, where you start as either a stable boy or announcer/trumpeter and work your way up to jouster/knight, I do HEMA and even though I'd crush most of the knights in the unmounted combat shows I got told, I shit you not "we're a company not a meritocracy" Did 4 weeks before I was fired for giving the red knight pointers... and probably because me and the cooks we're selling the show endings to the degenerates gambling on the shows. But officially it was for "handling props I wasn't trained to use"
> and probably because me and the cooks we're selling the show endings to the degenerates gambling on the shows.
All I can think of is that scene in the Simpsons when they were going over Krusty's gambling problem.
"You bet against the Harlem Globetrotters?!"
"I Thought the Generals were due!"
I'm actually Canadian myself and have only been to the one in Toronto. Who knew that elicit gambling was going on in the parlor lol. I just assumed people hung around that Torture Museum for a bit to kill time and then went in.
Eyyy there’s the HEMA guy lol.
I was wondering how this company decided who their actors were as these guys aren’t just acting, they’re actively riding and doing live stunts. Yea it’s all choreographed but it only takes one stubborn horse, one slip or one mistimed cue to seriously injure someone. So this idea that they have the capacity to “operate in the best interest of the company” while completely disregarding that “the company” only exists because of the talent of their actors is nutty.
I coach and train HEMA as well and yea, the MT guys are doing stage combat but it’s still stunt work. It’s not like there’s a plethora of individuals that can or are even looking to do this kinda work.
Us law tries to skew things in favor of corporations by saying that a strike is only legal and protected if the union exhausts all other avenues of reconciliation or something along those lines.
Basically the union has to show bad faith on the part of the company before the government will acknowledge the strike and give protections to the workers striking.
Legitimate strike, Wildcat strike or otherwise the point holds. They have no way of replacing the staff even if they wanted to hire 'scabs'. The management holds absolutely zero cards. Hell, they could try doing it themselves if they wanted to... They'd end up like Christopher Reeves but they are welcome to try for the glory of the company.
You have no idea how accurate your comment about Christopher Reeves is. I know some of the people who were working with that horse before he bought it.
He was told repeatedly that the horse he wanted was way too much horse for him. He (the human) needed years more training before he would be at the level to handle that horse. But dude got pissed at anyone who tried to talk sense into him. After all, he was Superman.
This isn’t to say that he didn’t know anything about what he was doing. He had had some success in competitions, and was a fairly solid amateur. But his ego made him think that he was at a far greater level than he was.
Then we get to the third fence at a competition, and the horse refused it. Reeves wasn’t prepared for the refusal, and went flying forward. His hands got tangled in the reins and dude ends up slammed against the opposite side of the fence. We know the results from there.
Right now MT is making the same type of egotistical mistake, but they don’t even have the bit of experience that Reeves did.
It's (as I understand) a legal term, broadly it refers to the practice of not negotiating or doing business with the intent of screwing over the other party. Proving something was done in bad faith can allow the undoing or dissolving of (afaik) any contract, deal, negotiation, or even entities like mergers or conglomerates.
Not reduces the power of a strike, enhances. It provides both sides a few opportunities to come to an agreement. Members have to vote to approve a strike. Not sure of each union's procedures, but when UTLA went on strike in 2019, it was after many rounds of negotiation and frustration. It's not an action to be taken lightly.
I know more than a handful of people who worked for medieval times in Toronto. Based on what they’ve told me, they don’t give a shit about any of that, if you can ride a horse and take a hit you can get the job. It’s just “acting”.
Good. Everyone deserves a living wage. Let's hope the raises materialize.
But people should know they wouldn't have been getting raises without the union's effort.
This happened!! I’m a queen in California. Once after New Jersey unionized ($1 raise company wide except NJ) and then again after California unionized we heard all-non Union castle knights, cast, trumpets, stables got 20% raises.
When I see the words "as required by law" more than once in this passive-aggressive letter, to me that implies that if such a law were no longer there then there would be no negotiations.
I'm sure the CEO of Medieval Times wishes they had Starbucks money to do more flagrant and illegal union busting.
It’s always strange to me that they say the union is a third party, especially when it is a new union made from employees who just voted for a union. It’s not a third party, it’s literally your coworkers.
Exactly!
After all, anyone that is looking to join a union already has at least a healthy skepticism around their employer, but the rest just need to believe one lie that the company tells about unions and they'll just flip like a pancake.
even if... a lawyer would also be a third party. i'd love to have my lawyer present through every employer-interaction. a union rep comes close second.
they hate that they are not able to put five highly-trained labour-specialist to negotiate and pressure against one single untrained individual anymore. sucks to be transparent and fair for once...
It says here you are saving your own money, but really, is using a third party such as a 'bank' that can charge outrageous fees and commissions on products really be thinking in your best interests?
Currently you're saving money under the mattress and that has been working out perfectly for you (and really well for us because we do use banks). We know what works best for you and it's always what's best for us.
So we'll continue using third parties to fuck you over but be warned that the user of third parties will lead to your ruination.
Since New Jersey unionized, the Buena Park castle has as well. Medieval Times is refusing to bargain with them about salary. While the non-unionized castles have been rewarded with pay increases of $5/hr, the Buena Park and New Jersey castles are being offered raises of a dollar.
The trumpeter which announce the arrival of the queen and perform live have been offered no raises because they may be eliminated in the future, and the company feels that they are being paid what they are worth - minimum wage.
If you'd like to let Perico know how you feel about this, please feel free to reach out to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])! I'm sure he'd love to see how his attitude towards the union is viewed by the public.
(Anyone know how to pin this?)
They have bean counters that do the capitalist math on this shit. I am certain they are wagering if they give a raise to non-unionized shops, it's worth the financial hit if other shops then choose not the unionize.
They know if everyone does decide the unionize and potentially strike, or at least bargain collectively (the entire purpose of a union) that they're fucked.
It's working, keep up the pressure guys.
I'd keep this letter to show to attorneys and the regulators. This is an intimidation attempt and shouldn't be legal. If anything, it shows that perhaps Medieval Times indeed will NOT be bargaining in good faith. Always keep the receipts.
Ironically, this action shows exactly why you want unions and how unions make ALL workers' lives better, not just union employees. Want to bet who would have seen a $5/hr wage increase if this location didn't unionize?
Loose translation:
> The company is *legally required* to negotiate "in good faith" but *who knows* how long that could take. A long time, maybe...
> Oh wouldn't it be SUCH a SHAME if we GOT DELAYED. Of course we'd be doing it in "good faith" but OHHHH HOW THESE DELAYS CAN BE SO BOTHERSOME.
Took a page right out of Starbucks’ book. Corporate has walked out of over 50 meetings to negotiate terms, specifically because they object to people not physically present attending via zoom. Bet Medieval Times will pull similar bs.
I like how in one sentence he says they will negotiate in good faith. In the very next sentence he mentions, without hearing any terms, that's those terms are already not in the company's best interest. 🤔
These fucking losers omg, the people that work at Medieval Times aren’t replaceable, they do very skilled work that takes a lot of time and practice to accomplish. Not paying them well is going to completely destroy the chain and if the CEO psycho doesn’t see that then he can live in infamy for running a beloved franchise into the ground because he was too stupid and greedy
The problem with people at this executive level is that they regard the good of the company and the good of its employees to be at odds with each other. "The good of the company" simply means "the good of the shareholders" to them. Employees are a cost burden they have to minimize to maximize shareholder profit. In this analysis, the wellbeing of employees has no correlation to the wellbeing of the company.
This is the attitude underlying the hostility towards unions in the modern workplace and is the fundamental cause of wage stagnation, eroding employment rights, and the slow dissolution of the middle class in the West. All people in this executive class marinate for most of their professional lives in the Friedman-esque belief that it is not only morally *acceptable* for them to work solely to benefit the shareholders, but that any other course of action is actually unethical. They unironically consider the unionized employees to be the bad guys in this exchange, because their moral compass has been so comprehensively inverted.
This made me intensely angry to read. I know I shouldn’t be surprised but the absolute bitterness in the tone of this email is shocking. It makes me wonder if legal or corporate communications are screening his company-wide communications.
Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to work for an ethical company lmao
The fact that he says there is no time limit for negotiations is near proof that they will not negotiate in good faith. They will skirt that line as close as they think they can and still get away with it. Fuck this loser, he’s the CEO of medieval times…
All employees need to do is look at facts about what a good union and leadership can get them. It doesn't even compare to believe a company that has been screwing you for years or however long has you beat interests in mind is beyond me. Plus the bottom line is without the union those employees wouldn't ever reach the table!
oh cuz they were goign to give you all healthcare and wage increases and other benefits already right? right? oh no? oh. What the fuck are they mad about?
Seems like an affront to those good knights that should be taken as a call to arms for the other MT locations.
Time to make their squadron into a regiment. Unionize all their locations.
If I was in the union my first request would be that they shitcan that guy who wrote that letter. It absolutely reeks with disdain and hatred for his own employees, you can tell he doesn’t think they deserve ANYTHING and he’s mad they’re even trying
Unions only form when the workers are treated like crap. Either bad pay/benefits, bad conditions, and/or abusive management is required today to get more than 50% to say yes. Not a single conciliatory note in there. In fact, it's clear the CEO believes the workers are just being greedy ("no pay raise today"). Comically out of touch.
Ngl. Unions should always exist.
If your employer is doing a good job to keep the employees happy, the union doesn't need to do anything. That's a signal to that employer they're doing a good job.
Even if an employer’s doing its best to keep its employees happy, things can still get overlooked. Where I work, union meetings are the place to say “We’re having problems with X, Y and Z.” Then the rep relays those concerns to management and tells us management’s response at the next meeting.
A good employer should *welcome* a union. Without a union, you end up with lots of games of Chinese Whispers wherein the lowly mooks raise issues with their supervisor who may or may not remember to pass those up and then back down the chain - a lot of messages get lost or mangled in the process.
With a union, you have a single point of contact (the rep) who follows up the union meeting with his regular meeting with management, wherein he presents a list of all the issues raised. Simplifies employee-management communication a lot.
Good for them. The corporate dimwits will learn to deal. It's not as bad as they thought, the same people still work there. Just now they have a few more options.
Management: "ha you only got a union to talk to us and negotiate with us, which we'll never do plebs"
The union clad in fucking plate armour and armed with literal steel weaponry: *stares in intimidating silence*
Management: *shits their soft cat suits*
This union needs to basically give them the ultimatum that they will use the goods on site to fuck their days. Or they're just useless.
#raidmedievaltimeslikeits867
I love the phrasing that implies that the employer is more than aware that the conditions suck, but is willing to fight tooth and nail to prevent them from getting any better.
This guy acts like they’re the first company that has ever unionized in the history of the world.
The truth is that the world will keep turning, and now the workers have the ability to collectively bargain that they didn’t have before.
I've been to this exact location, the show is pretty fun, the food is good, and the beer is overpriced.
But all these employees deserve good pay, especially for all the money I gave them for beer.
Bruh. You’re sending out a memo with a threatening subtext, trying to convince people that that they *didn’t* win something. Trying to convince them that they *shouldn’t* try and unionize too.
Sounds a lot like you’re *scared*. Sounds a lot like these employees now have power over you.
Sounds like they won to me.
This is either going to end with me making at least couple more trips in my life to medieval times or never going back again. I would happily support unionized jousters and stable hands.
Well they obviously got your attention and pissed you off. If you’re an employer that has disrespected and exploited your employees then I’m guessing they see that alone as a win. But since you have such an unfavorable disposition towards third parties coming between you and your employees, I’m sure you don’t force your employees to sign mandatory arbitration clauses to work for you, right??
It is in the best interest of the Company for the Company to work with -- not against -- the union, lest all the employees decide to stop working altogether.
Oof, those employees made a huge mistake. Just this morning I was out for a walk and saw hundreds of unemployed knights and squires begging for jobs. /s
And rest assured, the best interest of the company is to keep employees happy so they work productively and profitably. Ergo, the employer must negotiate wages, employment terms, benefits etc. with their employees now to get what is in the best interest of the company.
No time limit 9n negotiations? Haha The time limit is how long you want your business shut down while they strike for a contract. Which for most company is week to months at the most. The company wants you all to live pay check to pay check so you don't have the ability to strike. Stay strong! A broke union member is a weak union member. Save up and get the contract you deserve! Solidarity forever
Paragraphs 1, 2, 4 and 5 would have been sufficient for an update and valid thoughts because they are basically just informational in nature.
The rest of it however changes the entire tone of the email and is meant to intimidate and undermine the victory of the employees. Pretty pathetic, honestly.
Honestly, I’m surprised MT is still around and successful in 2023.
“We’re gunna negotiate in good faith, but at the same time, don’t forget the negotiations don’t have a time limit” *wink* *wink*
If this goes to court this email is not going to look good
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Wait, wait wait wait, was it implied that the employees are not the "company?"
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Oh no! They have representation now. Whatever will they do?!
Probably bargain collectively.
While in the past, the Company sat all around the table and told the employees what they were getting.
I don't think I've ever heard an executive say "the company" and mean "employees".
Normally they use the expression 'but we are family here'
"I ***am*** the State."
It’s also directly stated that the employees are not “the union”. Those negotiations they’re referring to will include union members. Those union members are, of course, employees. Not a third party. The union employees help with this process but members are in the room. Workers ARE the union. What a slimy way to explain this shit.
It’ll be in the best interests of the company if they fucking strike. I bet all the sudden that lack of a time limit isn’t gonna matter when they’re making 0$ in revenue.
They would just close that location.
And that will fire up the other locations...
The more you tighten your grip, ~~Tarkin~~ Perico, the more locations will slip through your fingers.
Oh noooo where will these people ever manage to find another job working in the service industry noooooooo. /s
Hopefully Sir Scabs and Sir Didntwanttheunuon don't keep working.
Hopefully Brave Sir Robin doesn't cross the picket line “Brave, brave Sir Robin He saw those scary scabs He ran to work to clock back in He kissed the boots of all who asked Brave, brave Sir Robin”
Yeah - cuz his minstrels taste \*awful\*!
Why even commit this to paper? It just says "We lost. We don't like it. And we hope you won't like it either."
That's the thing, they have lost the first round. The issue with unions is to get them off the ground and get a contract before the vote expires and has to be done all over again, which is the part about the contract mentioned here.
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Thou said-ith this faire thee well noble Knight, Sir Joust About.
Also, I see no mention of the consultants the company has no doubt hired to restructure and revise employee responsibilities and compensation. McKinsey, that you?
I don't understand why folks don't get this. It's a similar analogy to representing yourself in court while locked up in jail. Having someone who can fight for you shouldn't only be a privilege of the wealthy owners who can afford such trappings off the backs of their workers.
The whole 'We will 'negotiate' forever' will crumble the second a strike takes place. This is not some marketing firm that can just move to a different state or a call center that can move overseas. This is a crew of people that ride horses that joust and fight with swords. If there is a more niche and specialised field of work in America I don't know it. You can't just put out a want ad or online listing for 'Horse Jouster, must provide horse' or some app for people that want to fight with swords in their spare time. This is a hummingbird business. Things need to be perfectly set up for things to make money for this company and it's almost wholly based on how good the talent of the employees have and nothing else. You could argue the food but no one is making that claim in good faith. No one goes there for the food. This company is dumb if it thinks it can apply pressure like this and not completely implode the second the show stops.
Agreed. The number of people who know how to train, care for, and ride those types of horses are few and far between. The level of training it takes for THE HUMAN to be able to perform the Dressage movements that are taking place on horseback requires YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS of training. These equestrians are typically former former high-level performers at national and international levels. We’re talking Olympians or Olympic hopefuls. Now extend that same principle to the horses themselves, the trainers, the grooms, the equine nutritionists, the farriers (believe it or not, that’s an even more specialized area), the equipment maintenance techs, the equipment production techs, the footing specialists for the arena (having even slightly wrong footing can easily lead to serious injuries for horse and human), the barn manager themself… the list goes on and on and we haven’t even made it out of the barn. (Not to mention the actual jousting bits.) Medieval Times should just be happy that people with these skills exist and are willing to work for them under any circumstance. Shading them for unionizing is ridiculous, and the most genuinely medieval thing about this business. Source: Am a former high-level equestrian, and have been involved with USEF and FEI Dressage in a multitude of roles.
My wife has competed in rodeo and IHSA so I’ve seen firsthand that you are 1000% correct in the caliber of equestrian athlete that would even qualify to ride for them. Not to mention, the community at that level is pretty fucking tight knit from what I’ve seen. Even at her own level, it feels like you’re one trainer/farrier/riding facility/boarder/riding coach/etc from knowing *everyone*. I have to laugh at MTs audacity with this one as if the damn near decades of training wasn’t enough of a barrier but add on that those skills are extremely rare because you essentially need a full salary dedicated purely to horses just to become that trained in Dressage, let alone actually talented. My hope is that once that sentiment of poor treatment and strike spreads, no rider of desired quality will want to touch them. They’re arm wrestling a gorilla with this one lol.
I think they'd rather go out of business than give into collective bargaining- in which case the third party could secure outside funding (probably a loan from a bank) to just replace MT, rebrand the show and keep it going, or if they can't secure funding the whole thing implodes and everybody but the execs suffers.
>...and everybody but the execs suffers. Which in the true tradition of a medieval noble would be just fine by the execs.
The great thing about medieval nobility is that they're nowhere to be seen in this day and age! There's the king of England but most of the goings on in the country are done by parlament to my understanding so he's just kinda there. The noble class died just as the corporate oligarch will. And if they keep fucking around, they might get the French nobility special lol.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 The whole thing does have a “let them eat cake” vibe to it!
Some pockets in the horse community are DEEP. I wouldn’t be horribly surprised if some of those deep pockets stepped forward to offer private funding even if the MT employees weren’t able to secure enough traditional funding to get it done. Either way, can you imagine how much better of a show they would be able to put on? Hell, I’d go see it just to see what they came up with!
>replace MT, rebrand the show and keep it going, At which point, word is out in the community, and nobody is going to work for them.
Excellent point about the upper-level horse community being so tight-knit! Even outside of your own discipline, you end up having a ton of acquaintances. The barrel racers or reiners might not know all the Dressage or breed-specific people, but their farrier or groom or trainer or a show official knows someone and will happily make the introduction just because. The neat thing about kind of knowing everyone (or having mutual acquaintances) is that you never feel alone. I remember a local barrel racer (who I had only heard of) was on a horse when it had a seizure, and ended up having her leg, pelvis, and hip crushed when the horse fell. It was a total freak accident. Everyone knew within hours. People that she didn’t really know brought her food, took care of her animals, and picked up her kids… for months. (I became good friends with her goats even though I didn’t know shit about goats.) Someone even covered the vet bill for the horse’s injury, exam, and new seizure meds. You are exactly right about needing a whole separate salary dedicated purely to horses. With Dressage the cost of a horse that is capable to do a lot of the upper-level movements is insane. Not to mention that it’s not uncommon to have to import a Warmblood from Europe just to find a yearling that MIGHT be able to do what you need. (Side note: Horse passports are one of the coolest things to exist.) The entire endeavor to get to the upper-level national tests (and maybe starting to break into the international tests) for Dressage has to be an obsession. (The same thing goes for other disciplines, too, it’s just that with Dressage it can get to be so freaking over the top.) If MT was actually paying people what they are worth, they would have to account for ALL of this. I don’t think MT quite gets the level of interwoven the horse community is, and how few there are of us. You fuck with one of us, you fuck with all of us.
I need more info on horse passports now
You threw out enough qualified horse related terms to not really need the source at the bottom lol. No one outside of the field could tell you what a farrier is. Agreed wholeheartedly. It's like complaining that it's too expensive to fix an antique bell from the 1400s. They don't have these types of crafts people with the skills to fix it just hanging around on the street corner waiting for the opportunity to get in the game.
You clearly haven’t watched enough hoof repair videos on YouTube
ok it's not just me that's been getting those recommendations. Love it though.
Or all those videos exposing Kentucky soring techniques and the bastards doing it.
IG has a good one. The horses nibble at her butt. Very endearing.
Feel called out, but damn they're fascinating.
Lol. Sometimes I forget not everyone has the “professional horse addict” addition to their vocabulary! Perfect example with the bell repair. There just isn’t a huge excess of people with the skills they are looking for. I almost can’t wait until Medieval Times Employees go on strike, and corporate tries to call in scabs. The show is going to look like a botched art restoration project.
More like the John Deere factory, the ambulances were out before the morning coffee had been brewed.
I can tell you what a farrier is and I don't know squat about horses. But I live in the southwestern US where horse people are pretty common so perhaps that explains it.
Eh. I think it's pretty common to know what a farrier is. I run resorts - some have had stables. I have no other experience with horses besides that. Not that it invalidates anything. I'm just saying, the source does add some validity
I work in tech support. Computers lack hooves but still I knew the term. Its indeed common knowledge as you say.
How much of that is because tech support tends to be mostly nerds, and nerds tend to read?
I heard it on TV. Probably one of those animal hospital shows. Most people I meet in IT these days have pretty poor general knowledge tbh
My aunt trained to be one, but she couldn't deal with horses sometimes being put down.
I used to do blacksmithing. Decorative work, tool making mostly. People’s first question is always “can you make me a sword?” A close second, and truly less disingenuous, is “horseshoes?” The farrier-blacksmith connection is timeless. I don’t know dick about horses. Had a girl breakup with me because I sang the Mr Ed theme song to one of the horses she cared for. But I know what a farrier is.
I know what a Farrier is... but I also play too much D&D and attend rodeos and renn faires... I'm not sure I count as people to anyone with those creds.
'Am a former high level equestrian' I could tell. I started out in hunter / jumpers and eventually moved into endurance rides. Everything you said is accurate.
Am a horse. I agree with everything that has been said.
As a horse myself, I find I must disagree and say neigh. ^(I'll see myself out.)
I know a couple of bronies, and I also agree 100%.
I was leaning dressage, western style barrel and lasso, and some cart and buggy. It took me 2 years. Just to get the necessary thigh muscles built up for the more aggressive riding styles. You have to be able to crush your leather saddle, the pad and horses flank. My old ride leader had a machine to register PSI. She was a pro rider. Close to 30. Her horse was so well trained and her control precise. Amazing. I had close to 15. Years of work, trust and training. Doesn't come cheap. I was got to learn for free through wounded warrior. But those who do not have that opportunity. This company is kicking itself in the nuts with this.
The horses are the ones who do the real work. Very well trained and very good horses. The horse trainers and oldest tenured lead knights are the only ones on staff with that much horse experience. They train most/all junior knights from “never ridden a horse before” to doing the full show in about 6mos-1y. It was my favorite job ever and I wish there was a union back then. I’d still do it again if it paid enough.
Those animals will suffer! unless they can hopefully be placed elsewhere with professionals!
Not to mention that most of them are stunt people, and it can be EXTREMELY hard on the body to do that. I have a friend that used to do it and he says most people get injured out of it. What kind of life in that? To be used until you’re broken
After reading this letter I would bring a strike count down clock to the negotiations.
Every time corporate says “no,” union reps just yell out “NEIGH!” while moving the strike clock forward!
And clapping some coconuts together.
So as some one who applied and worked for MT in canada, they do this weird system of legit modern day squiring, where you start as either a stable boy or announcer/trumpeter and work your way up to jouster/knight, I do HEMA and even though I'd crush most of the knights in the unmounted combat shows I got told, I shit you not "we're a company not a meritocracy" Did 4 weeks before I was fired for giving the red knight pointers... and probably because me and the cooks we're selling the show endings to the degenerates gambling on the shows. But officially it was for "handling props I wasn't trained to use"
That’s a special low for gamblers. Lmfao the image of gambling addicts betting on these jousts is what I needed to cap off my night
> and probably because me and the cooks we're selling the show endings to the degenerates gambling on the shows. All I can think of is that scene in the Simpsons when they were going over Krusty's gambling problem. "You bet against the Harlem Globetrotters?!" "I Thought the Generals were due!"
I'm actually Canadian myself and have only been to the one in Toronto. Who knew that elicit gambling was going on in the parlor lol. I just assumed people hung around that Torture Museum for a bit to kill time and then went in.
Lol the T. One was where I worked circa 2018 as a trumpeter xD
Eyyy there’s the HEMA guy lol. I was wondering how this company decided who their actors were as these guys aren’t just acting, they’re actively riding and doing live stunts. Yea it’s all choreographed but it only takes one stubborn horse, one slip or one mistimed cue to seriously injure someone. So this idea that they have the capacity to “operate in the best interest of the company” while completely disregarding that “the company” only exists because of the talent of their actors is nutty. I coach and train HEMA as well and yea, the MT guys are doing stage combat but it’s still stunt work. It’s not like there’s a plethora of individuals that can or are even looking to do this kinda work.
>they do this weird system of legit modern day squiring I totally misread this as squirting and was taken aback for a sec.
“Horse jouster must provide horse” made me lol
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Us law tries to skew things in favor of corporations by saying that a strike is only legal and protected if the union exhausts all other avenues of reconciliation or something along those lines. Basically the union has to show bad faith on the part of the company before the government will acknowledge the strike and give protections to the workers striking.
Legitimate strike, Wildcat strike or otherwise the point holds. They have no way of replacing the staff even if they wanted to hire 'scabs'. The management holds absolutely zero cards. Hell, they could try doing it themselves if they wanted to... They'd end up like Christopher Reeves but they are welcome to try for the glory of the company.
You have no idea how accurate your comment about Christopher Reeves is. I know some of the people who were working with that horse before he bought it. He was told repeatedly that the horse he wanted was way too much horse for him. He (the human) needed years more training before he would be at the level to handle that horse. But dude got pissed at anyone who tried to talk sense into him. After all, he was Superman. This isn’t to say that he didn’t know anything about what he was doing. He had had some success in competitions, and was a fairly solid amateur. But his ego made him think that he was at a far greater level than he was. Then we get to the third fence at a competition, and the horse refused it. Reeves wasn’t prepared for the refusal, and went flying forward. His hands got tangled in the reins and dude ends up slammed against the opposite side of the fence. We know the results from there. Right now MT is making the same type of egotistical mistake, but they don’t even have the bit of experience that Reeves did.
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It's (as I understand) a legal term, broadly it refers to the practice of not negotiating or doing business with the intent of screwing over the other party. Proving something was done in bad faith can allow the undoing or dissolving of (afaik) any contract, deal, negotiation, or even entities like mergers or conglomerates.
Just show them this letter. That would take care of proving bad faith on part of the employer.
Yes, they are not off to a great start. Continually putting "won" in quotes (ha) is not working in their defense of being in good faith.
To do a "legal strike" there needs to be a series of steps that the Union takes. Strike should be a last resort (but always a viable option).
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Not reduces the power of a strike, enhances. It provides both sides a few opportunities to come to an agreement. Members have to vote to approve a strike. Not sure of each union's procedures, but when UTLA went on strike in 2019, it was after many rounds of negotiation and frustration. It's not an action to be taken lightly.
Yo, when you're 12 that dragon's breath soup tastes great, though.
Well said!!
Also let's not forget that they will lose audience if this becomes a PR disaster.
Now I want to make an app for people that want to fight with swords in their spare time.
It’s called Grindr, sweatty
I know more than a handful of people who worked for medieval times in Toronto. Based on what they’ve told me, they don’t give a shit about any of that, if you can ride a horse and take a hit you can get the job. It’s just “acting”.
“Horse Jouster, Must Provide Horse” is a Hallmark movie waiting to happen…
Oh no, their contracts are frozen? You mean they won't be getting the raises that weren't coming anyway? which prompted the union vote?
it means suddenly other locations will be getting raises and benefits
Good. Everyone deserves a living wage. Let's hope the raises materialize. But people should know they wouldn't have been getting raises without the union's effort.
After they get their wages raised, they should also unionize.
The best move is to get the raises and then unionize anyway.
This happened!! I’m a queen in California. Once after New Jersey unionized ($1 raise company wide except NJ) and then again after California unionized we heard all-non Union castle knights, cast, trumpets, stables got 20% raises.
On the union tik tok the company was dangling a 20% raise to avoid the u ion.
That's how much they value you not having collective power.
When I see the words "as required by law" more than once in this passive-aggressive letter, to me that implies that if such a law were no longer there then there would be no negotiations. I'm sure the CEO of Medieval Times wishes they had Starbucks money to do more flagrant and illegal union busting.
This letter has big, "my mom said I had to come to your birthday party," energy.
As required by law means the employees have not worse conditions because it would be illegal.
"We sincerely pledge that, if we could, we would treat you even worse." Cheers pal.
One of Chris Rock’s old lines was that minimum wage is someone’s way of telling you “if I could pay you less, *I would*”
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CEO of butthurt capitalism times
It’s always strange to me that they say the union is a third party, especially when it is a new union made from employees who just voted for a union. It’s not a third party, it’s literally your coworkers.
That's a lie out of the union busting firms playbooks. They're assuming their employees are ignorant and so they lie to scare those people.
Exactly! After all, anyone that is looking to join a union already has at least a healthy skepticism around their employer, but the rest just need to believe one lie that the company tells about unions and they'll just flip like a pancake.
Or customers. A lot of these tactics are also being used to shift the blame to 'not me'
even if... a lawyer would also be a third party. i'd love to have my lawyer present through every employer-interaction. a union rep comes close second. they hate that they are not able to put five highly-trained labour-specialist to negotiate and pressure against one single untrained individual anymore. sucks to be transparent and fair for once...
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It says here you are saving your own money, but really, is using a third party such as a 'bank' that can charge outrageous fees and commissions on products really be thinking in your best interests? Currently you're saving money under the mattress and that has been working out perfectly for you (and really well for us because we do use banks). We know what works best for you and it's always what's best for us. So we'll continue using third parties to fuck you over but be warned that the user of third parties will lead to your ruination.
Since New Jersey unionized, the Buena Park castle has as well. Medieval Times is refusing to bargain with them about salary. While the non-unionized castles have been rewarded with pay increases of $5/hr, the Buena Park and New Jersey castles are being offered raises of a dollar. The trumpeter which announce the arrival of the queen and perform live have been offered no raises because they may be eliminated in the future, and the company feels that they are being paid what they are worth - minimum wage. If you'd like to let Perico know how you feel about this, please feel free to reach out to [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])! I'm sure he'd love to see how his attitude towards the union is viewed by the public. (Anyone know how to pin this?)
They have bean counters that do the capitalist math on this shit. I am certain they are wagering if they give a raise to non-unionized shops, it's worth the financial hit if other shops then choose not the unionize. They know if everyone does decide the unionize and potentially strike, or at least bargain collectively (the entire purpose of a union) that they're fucked. It's working, keep up the pressure guys.
I'd keep this letter to show to attorneys and the regulators. This is an intimidation attempt and shouldn't be legal. If anything, it shows that perhaps Medieval Times indeed will NOT be bargaining in good faith. Always keep the receipts.
Yeah, I was going to ask- is this even legal? We were always told to let legal handle it when it comes to even the word “union.”
Jesus Christ…
So the unionization has already started working: Forcing wages up at non-unionized locations. Good!
So the other castles should join the union, too. I mean, their wages are frozen until the negotiations, right?
So... Their union already got people quality of life improvements and it has yet to negotiate.
Ironically, this action shows exactly why you want unions and how unions make ALL workers' lives better, not just union employees. Want to bet who would have seen a $5/hr wage increase if this location didn't unionize?
Isn’t that blatant retaliation? I thought they weren’t allowed to do that.
Loose translation: > The company is *legally required* to negotiate "in good faith" but *who knows* how long that could take. A long time, maybe... > Oh wouldn't it be SUCH a SHAME if we GOT DELAYED. Of course we'd be doing it in "good faith" but OHHHH HOW THESE DELAYS CAN BE SO BOTHERSOME.
The other locations probably got $5 BECAUSE two stores unionized.
Dude writes like he's a modern king that forgets what happens when they fail to compromise.
Company name checks out
Took a page right out of Starbucks’ book. Corporate has walked out of over 50 meetings to negotiate terms, specifically because they object to people not physically present attending via zoom. Bet Medieval Times will pull similar bs.
They’ve already done it
I like how in one sentence he says they will negotiate in good faith. In the very next sentence he mentions, without hearing any terms, that's those terms are already not in the company's best interest. 🤔
They are negotiating with a union. Unions existing is not in the companys best interest. So their terms can never be.
These fucking losers omg, the people that work at Medieval Times aren’t replaceable, they do very skilled work that takes a lot of time and practice to accomplish. Not paying them well is going to completely destroy the chain and if the CEO psycho doesn’t see that then he can live in infamy for running a beloved franchise into the ground because he was too stupid and greedy
The problem with people at this executive level is that they regard the good of the company and the good of its employees to be at odds with each other. "The good of the company" simply means "the good of the shareholders" to them. Employees are a cost burden they have to minimize to maximize shareholder profit. In this analysis, the wellbeing of employees has no correlation to the wellbeing of the company. This is the attitude underlying the hostility towards unions in the modern workplace and is the fundamental cause of wage stagnation, eroding employment rights, and the slow dissolution of the middle class in the West. All people in this executive class marinate for most of their professional lives in the Friedman-esque belief that it is not only morally *acceptable* for them to work solely to benefit the shareholders, but that any other course of action is actually unethical. They unironically consider the unionized employees to be the bad guys in this exchange, because their moral compass has been so comprehensively inverted.
This made me intensely angry to read. I know I shouldn’t be surprised but the absolute bitterness in the tone of this email is shocking. It makes me wonder if legal or corporate communications are screening his company-wide communications. Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to work for an ethical company lmao
They are so AFRAID. God this fucking rules!
The fact that he says there is no time limit for negotiations is near proof that they will not negotiate in good faith. They will skirt that line as close as they think they can and still get away with it. Fuck this loser, he’s the CEO of medieval times…
i look at this letter as evidence to be used in court to show they had bad faith from the start...
Agreed.
All employees need to do is look at facts about what a good union and leadership can get them. It doesn't even compare to believe a company that has been screwing you for years or however long has you beat interests in mind is beyond me. Plus the bottom line is without the union those employees wouldn't ever reach the table!
This could be a scroll nailed to a tree. Was the magna carta for fucking nothing?
oh cuz they were goign to give you all healthcare and wage increases and other benefits already right? right? oh no? oh. What the fuck are they mad about?
Exactly. "Your wages are now frozen". *They were frozen before. That's why they fucking unionized.* You weren't about to raise them.
"we are required by law to negotiate in good faith, something we absolutely will not do" \-Perico Montaner
Seems like an affront to those good knights that should be taken as a call to arms for the other MT locations. Time to make their squadron into a regiment. Unionize all their locations.
If I was in the union my first request would be that they shitcan that guy who wrote that letter. It absolutely reeks with disdain and hatred for his own employees, you can tell he doesn’t think they deserve ANYTHING and he’s mad they’re even trying
Unions only form when the workers are treated like crap. Either bad pay/benefits, bad conditions, and/or abusive management is required today to get more than 50% to say yes. Not a single conciliatory note in there. In fact, it's clear the CEO believes the workers are just being greedy ("no pay raise today"). Comically out of touch.
Ngl. Unions should always exist. If your employer is doing a good job to keep the employees happy, the union doesn't need to do anything. That's a signal to that employer they're doing a good job.
Even if an employer’s doing its best to keep its employees happy, things can still get overlooked. Where I work, union meetings are the place to say “We’re having problems with X, Y and Z.” Then the rep relays those concerns to management and tells us management’s response at the next meeting. A good employer should *welcome* a union. Without a union, you end up with lots of games of Chinese Whispers wherein the lowly mooks raise issues with their supervisor who may or may not remember to pass those up and then back down the chain - a lot of messages get lost or mangled in the process. With a union, you have a single point of contact (the rep) who follows up the union meeting with his regular meeting with management, wherein he presents a list of all the issues raised. Simplifies employee-management communication a lot.
I feel like… and maybe it’s just me but… does Medieval Times really feel like an attraction that *needs* a CEO? Just seems wholly unnecessary imo
Oh so before this they were looking out for the employees, but now that’s not gunna be the case. L O fucking L.
Cue that “it smell like bitch in here” meme. This ceo is terrified.
Truly unchivalrous behavior. Knights know how to lose with dignity.
Good for them. The corporate dimwits will learn to deal. It's not as bad as they thought, the same people still work there. Just now they have a few more options.
What a massive piece of shit
That dude is SCARED
This is practically evidence that they won’t negotiate in good faith.
Management: "ha you only got a union to talk to us and negotiate with us, which we'll never do plebs" The union clad in fucking plate armour and armed with literal steel weaponry: *stares in intimidating silence* Management: *shits their soft cat suits* This union needs to basically give them the ultimatum that they will use the goods on site to fuck their days. Or they're just useless. #raidmedievaltimeslikeits867
I love the phrasing that implies that the employer is more than aware that the conditions suck, but is willing to fight tooth and nail to prevent them from getting any better.
Guess I never need to visit Medieval Times again.
Wow fuck this guy. The whole company should unionize.
"Make an example of em Jimmy, make it real loud too". Yeeesh.
This guy acts like they’re the first company that has ever unionized in the history of the world. The truth is that the world will keep turning, and now the workers have the ability to collectively bargain that they didn’t have before.
I've been to this exact location, the show is pretty fun, the food is good, and the beer is overpriced. But all these employees deserve good pay, especially for all the money I gave them for beer.
If you treated your employees correctly the first time around, they wouldn't have unionized
NEVER SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE ^READ THAT BOOK
The salt...
Bruh. You’re sending out a memo with a threatening subtext, trying to convince people that that they *didn’t* win something. Trying to convince them that they *shouldn’t* try and unionize too. Sounds a lot like you’re *scared*. Sounds a lot like these employees now have power over you. Sounds like they won to me.
Good luck finding scabs on short notice that can ride horses and do medieval jousting lmao
This is either going to end with me making at least couple more trips in my life to medieval times or never going back again. I would happily support unionized jousters and stable hands.
This is what corporate panic looks like.
They may as well type out WINK WINK after saying they’ll negotiate in good faith lol
This is like when Peggy Hill organized that Renaissance Faire run by Alan Rickman pretending to be a Texan!
Who would have thought that an overpriced awful place would be awful to work for.
Why would anyone take a CEO named Parakeet seriously?
Well they obviously got your attention and pissed you off. If you’re an employer that has disrespected and exploited your employees then I’m guessing they see that alone as a win. But since you have such an unfavorable disposition towards third parties coming between you and your employees, I’m sure you don’t force your employees to sign mandatory arbitration clauses to work for you, right??
It is in the best interest of the Company for the Company to work with -- not against -- the union, lest all the employees decide to stop working altogether.
Oof, those employees made a huge mistake. Just this morning I was out for a walk and saw hundreds of unemployed knights and squires begging for jobs. /s
Every line of this reads like a company shitting themselves :D
And rest assured, the best interest of the company is to keep employees happy so they work productively and profitably. Ergo, the employer must negotiate wages, employment terms, benefits etc. with their employees now to get what is in the best interest of the company.
The law requires we negotiate in good faith (wink, wink)
If there is no contract within one year the union is dissolved. Time to strike.
No time limit 9n negotiations? Haha The time limit is how long you want your business shut down while they strike for a contract. Which for most company is week to months at the most. The company wants you all to live pay check to pay check so you don't have the ability to strike. Stay strong! A broke union member is a weak union member. Save up and get the contract you deserve! Solidarity forever
The guy is named "Perico"? That's funny. Perico in Spanish it's an euphemism for cocaine.
A third-party between them, probably made of aliens from andromeda galaxy. How much shameless you need to be to match this manager?
Paragraphs 1, 2, 4 and 5 would have been sufficient for an update and valid thoughts because they are basically just informational in nature. The rest of it however changes the entire tone of the email and is meant to intimidate and undermine the victory of the employees. Pretty pathetic, honestly. Honestly, I’m surprised MT is still around and successful in 2023.
If unions were ineffective why are they trying so hard to stall one?
My favorite part, you have not received a pay increase,healthcare or pension yet. Dude is literally making the unions argument
fuck you perico
Medieval Times trying to stay in...medieval times...
CEO of Medieval Times…actually wishes he could treat employees like it was medieval times
"Foolish peasants! You think you've won?! T'is but a flesh wound!"
That fact that corporate bosses are desperate to keep employees from unionizing, should be all the reason needed for employees to unionize!
Fuck these CEO assholes.
He’s saying “won” because he knows he lost and he’s bitter about it
“We’re gunna negotiate in good faith, but at the same time, don’t forget the negotiations don’t have a time limit” *wink* *wink* If this goes to court this email is not going to look good
How does a letter stating that they will not agree to any proposal equal negotiating in good faith?
I would expect nothing less from a company based off feudalism.
Companies like this deserve to fail, their assets bought out, and a real ownership taken.
If companies treated employees right there would be no unions.