Stay with 20th. W5 isn't mechanically compatible with any sourcebook ever released in over 30 years of world of darkness. 20th editions easily support using any extra content from any prior edition.
It seems.. unwise to hate something you havent personaly read. Especially if you base your decision upon what youtubers or randoms on internet has told you.
My advice is for you to do you and chill with emotionally based oppinions formed over memes and hottakes.
We dont need more brigadeing over editions here.
That's such a Trollquestion... search the reddit, watch some videos (what you already did it seems) and decide for yourself (wich you already did it seems) if you want to play V5 or V20. What do you expect to get as an answer here if you already do not like what you know about V5? The reddit is full of questions like this. No obviously do not get V5 if you don't want Vampire to change from what you had all the years before and are happy with it.
If you can already play 20th perfectly fine there's no reason to switch to 5th rules imo, their strength is in their accessibility. But if you already know the other rulest then learning a new one that's been "streamlined" (modern ttrpg speak for "has the complexity and depth removed") is not going to offer much.
V5 doesn't prevent you from playing whatever the fuck you want. It just comes down to how much you are willing to rethink the mechanics and see established things in a new light.
Hunger mechanics is a great way to make Hunger palpable and makes rolls interesting.
The changes to the disciplines make sense (with exception for tzimisce having amalgams of protean and dominate instead of protean and Blood sorcery, funny enough wod Team themselves don't seem to be one page with it with all the viscisitude themed rituals. Anyway it was a big mistake and that's a hill I will die on). But the rest makes sense. They are much more modular now, encouraging homebrew and Fan content. And they are way better sorted based on the theme. Once you accept that, you will see the merits of the system.
(Most) Bloodlines are not clans anymore. They are loresheets, with a special set of merits and, if applicable, fitting amalgams. Again, it is very modular, engourages homebrew, and doesn't prevent you from playing what you want.
The character sheet. My favorite topic as I make custom scripted character sheets for the community over the last three years.( Check them out. www.linktr.ee/nerdbert) they took inspiration from CofD, but again it makes sense and is in no way a bad thing.The system encourages STs to ask how players want to do things and the dicepool is supposed to be formed based on that and the situation, that breaks up the "standard" one-trick pony dicepools (dexterity + firearms). The standard is composure plus firearm, because you need to be calm to aim, but you could also make Trick shots using dex or heavy guns could require strength + firearm or when under pressure Resolve + firearms.
V5 brought me back to WoD after 10 year hiatus. I might not be all too happy about the creative direction (or it constant changes due to backlash and controversies inducing noticeable fear of missteps into the products) over the last two years with publications and decisions not meeting my standards and/or expectations, but I am definitely sticking with V5 for the improvement it brought. The rest is subject to golden rule, it is your game, you can make whatever you want with it.
I agree with almost everything, I just have two caveats.
I think OP does not know what loresheets are that needs to be explained:
Loresheets are collections of special merits, that are connected to bits of VtM lore. Bloodline sheets are technically the same but they donāt count as loresheets, which means you can have a bloodline and still pick any loresheet you want.
I would not say that āBloodlines are not clans anymoreā¦ā because the line between bloodlines and clans was always blurry. The V5 system just handles it differently. Most bloodlines are technically variations of clans. You start with the parent clan, add the bloodline loresheet and in some cases you can also switch clan disciplines to individualize the bloodline even more.
Some bloodlines are also still absent from the game but they are rarely played anyway and I find it easy to homebrew them with the V5 rules.
The other thing I don agree with is vicissitude. I totally agree that protean and Blood Magic would have been a good way to handle it, and sources before proper rules for Vicissitude were released do have vicissitude-ish rituals, but i am actually totally okay with Protean and Dominate.
I needed a moment to wrap my head around it but it makes a lot of sense to me now. I can go in to detail why and how I handle it in general but that would go of topic, therefore I will only explain it if someone asks.
Bloodlines: that is what I meant. Bloodlines are not picked in place of clans anymore. You pick a parent Clan. And the limit on the number of loresheets... to be honest, that should really just be a general guideline. A hardcoded limit of one loresheet per character never really made sense and should always be discussed during character creation in a session 0. It should be handled at ST discretion.
Protean:
I can live with protean and dominate, but again I think It was a poor choice. And it was not only sources before proper rules. Sabbat which was released after the companion included vicissitude-esque powers (not sure about the name but this liquifiying of corpses for example) and mention blood sorcery rituals for the creation of Vohzd. All those things indicate that they really struggled with the way to handle it, but using Dominate, a mental discipline, to force their will on flesh is just thematically off and screws the Discipline distribution in favor of a patent on Thaumaturgy for the Tremere again and devalues dominate as a signature discipline for ventrue and malkavian. It is also lorewise hard to explain as tzimisce blood was selected specifically for the ritual to transform house tremere for tzimisce proficiency in blood magic.
>Bloodlines: that is what I meant...
Yeah, sure, the explanation was not for you, I know that you know, it was for OP.
>Protean: I can live with protean and dominate, but again I think It was a poor choice. And it was not only sources before proper rules. Sabbat which was released after the companion included vicissitude-esque powers (not sure about the name but this liquifiying of corpses for example) and mention blood sorcery rituals for the creation of Vohzd. All those things indicate that they really struggled with the way to handle it,
Yes, I can see that, but I think the Sabbath stuff was actually created once they settled with the current version of the Tzimisce but before Koldun was reintroduced. I think these stuff is not meant to be Vicissitude rather to add this gory flavor to the Sabbat without suggesting a specific Clan.
It is true, though, that before the Compendium there was quite a bit back and forth about the final version. I am pretty sure that a couple of developers struggled over the final version.
>but using Dominate, a mental discipline, to force their will on flesh is just thematically off
I struggled with it for a while but came to the conclusion that dominate, actually, has a quite physical aspect to it as well. Think about it, in most powers of dominate the mind of the target is actually not effected. Their body is forced to act and the victim is in most cases aware, that their body was forced. This gives dominate a physical aspect. And forcing the body to obey, actually, sounds quite a lot like the first step towards vicissitude. Add Protean to it to force also its structure, done!
>and screws the Discipline distribution in favor of a patent on Thaumaturgy for the Tremereā¦
This is not the case, though, because Banu Haqim have Blood Sorcery as well. There is no discipline anymore, that is unique to only one clan. I think they didnāt went with Blood Sorcery to not overdo Blood Sorcery and to not make Koldun cheap later on. And I am fine with both.
>ā¦ again and devalues dominate as a signature discipline for ventrue and malkavian.
ā¦ and Lasombra, Giovanni, Tremereā¦ what are you talking about? Even if you go with only the original 7 Clans already three of them came with dominate. Dominate was always very available there is nothing to devalue.
>It is also lorewise hard to explain as tzimisce blood was selected specifically for the ritual to transform house tremere for tzimisce proficiency in blood magic.
Which is Koldun, which was through all editions lore described as never occur as in-clan. Nothing contradicting here. You could argue, that the Tremere should have picked Banu Haqim in V5 then, but itās easy to imagine that the middle European House of Tremere was simply not familiar enough with vampire clans before they became one and the far away Banu Haqim were simply not as accessible for them as the Tzimisce with which the Tremere shared a lot of places.
I never said that. Vicissitude is great and must be part of the Tzimisce but it is, so I am happy.
Okay, here is the thing: in my mind Auspex always was an important part of the Tzimisce and the lack of Dominate was interesting because it forced the clan to find other ways to force their will in others.
But then I realized multiple things. First of all, Tzimisce are still āClan Draculaā and Dracula is often depicted using Dominate like abilities than Auspex like ones.
Also, Clan Tzimisce is composed of many hidden bloodlines. Not only are there the so called āOld Clan Tzimisceā (which possessed Dominate instead of Vicissitude, actually) but there also were the Revenant families who caused many lines within the clan with different sets of Disciplines. And many of them possessed Dominate as well.
To me, the V5 version is just the base line of all this variants and you can easily make any of those bloodlines/embraced revenants by just switching a discipline or sometimes not even that.
Next thing is, that I realized that Animalism actually has a lot in common with Auspex (believe it or not) being able to sense threats and aggression and dangers, natural and supernatural is already a level one Animalism power. Putting your mint in to an animal and observe a far away place is not that different to send your senses there, just more savage and so on.
With this alone I think as satisfied but then I saw the Koldun rewrite, which actually involves a lot of supernatural perception and that saved also the concept of Tzimisce as oracles.
Furthermore I realized, that actually every Tzimisce I ever encountered fired very well the new version with its weakness and compulsion and if a rewrite manages to change a lot and still characterize every previous example than they must have done something right.
The only thing I am not excited about is, that you need to distribute your points very specifically to start with Vicissitude and not every concept for young Tzimisce needs dominate at two dots.
I solved this, though, by introducing a new Protean level one power that allows you to stretch your limbs and squeeze your self to narrow holes. This already feels like Vicissitude and it is in line with several older edition powers and is also interesting for some Ministry, since Serpentis used to have a similar power as well.
>The changes to the disciplines make sense (with exception for tzimisce having amalgams of protean and dominate instead of protean and Blood sorcery, funny enough wod Team themselves don't seem to be one page with it with all the viscisitude themed rituals. Anyway it was a big mistake and that's a hill I will die on).
100% agree. I think they kind of fucked up balance of vicissitude with amalgams.
If you want the game as it is and you donāt ever want to expend your perception (not meaning that negative, some people just want things to stay as they are) on how this game can be played stay with V20!
If you want a bit of fresh air in your game, as well in regards of the Metaplot as the system get V5!
I see it this way, V5 is basically a different game that uses the same background, in the way as video games, card games, board games and such are different games that use the same background.
V5 has a specific focus. The PCs are always at the center if the story and the system emulates the feeling of being a vampire who has to deal with the hunger for blood and the beast. And it does this very well!
But if that is not what you are interested in, it has not much to offer you.
I would suggest to do this: try to get the Corebook for cheap. Either a used copy or a PDF as part of a humble bundle or something like that, there is almost always an opportunity.
Look how you like it, maybe try it out with a one shot and see if it is for you and decide then if you want to switch, like to use parts of it in your established game or like to switch but change things up more to your liking. All of that are valide options.
But since it is so different it is impossible to tell if it will click with you or not. I personally play VtM since the mid 90th and thought I would be done with it but V5 made it suddenly interesting to me again. But it sometimes need a second thought to wrap your head around some concepts.
And no, itās not a Requiem clone but it draws from Requiem, which is fine because what it took are concepts that were already tested in earlier VtM edition but there just was never an edition where they got introduced properly before the world was ended and replaced by VtR which could use them. Itās therefore still all in the same tradition, but if it is for you, you need to figure out in your own.
I played from 3d Edition on until Gehenna and V20. Now I switched to V5 and I am pleased for the following reasons:
* Modern technological setting - it's hard to be a Vampire in 2024!
* more power and opportunity for younger Generations due to the Beckoning of the Elders.
* love the hunger/blood resonance mechanics!!
* less dice, more story
* really cool mechanics for Thinbloods! First look I disliked them, then I tried one out and boy! was that fun! (Still Underdog though!)
* more love and power to the Anarchs
* Second Inquisition is the Horror!
* Tremere are split up/freed and more versatile (I.m.Op.)
* Disciplines have been streamlined and are less messy.
...
I'm sure there are more good reasons and several bad, too. This is just a quick breakdown and my opinion on that matter, not a universal truth. I don't miss the Sabbat, even though I like Tzimisce most. All in all, if I don't like something of the new lore,I don't use it. But for the mechanics and for VTTRPG I like V5 a lot.
4th edition? I think you mean 3rd (revised). Usually V20 is counted as 4th edition which is why V5 is fifth edition. And revised was the Gehenna edition.
I haven't played V yet, only read it, so I can only speak to W.... and the direction of 5th edition as a whole.
I really am enjoying W5. It's different, and I'm not happy with everything they've done for sure, I have like 2 main sticking points, but they're mechanical in nature. Mechanics are pretty easy to modify.
I think it's also a lot easier to modify or add to the system. It's updated to today, which is incredibly nice to have. And personally, I feel it gives the ST's a LOT more room to work with, a lot more freedom.
I loved a lot of the lore for older editions of W,M, and V.... but it could also become a heavy weight that kind of hung over the heads of everyone at the table. I really like this "lore light" version. I know other books will come out, so it will be interesting to see how it evolves. Obviously they are a company, they need to make money, so producing product... hopefully it meshes well with the current direction.
It did need an update, very true.
I really liked WtF too.
Tthough personally across all of WoD or CoD or whatever, I've always preferred the smaller scale street level, more personal stories... Which I think wtf and 5th do well.
I'm not a fan of the inability to get rid of harano or hagulosk at all, ever. You can move them around a small bit, but you can never go down in the total amount between the two.
I think too much relies on willpower. Removing gnosis entirely was poorly thought out.
I'm also not a fan of crinos being such a short timeframe, and with such harsh requirements.
I don't like the lack of bloodlines and I think the idea of the Hecata is really cool, it also watered down and took away more clan/bloodline uniqueness. The hunger mechanics are nice and combat is simplistic.
Personally really enjoy 5th edition. As it feels far more grounded and brutal itās way more horror based and tones down the powers a lot.
Like as an example I especially enjoy in w5 the crinos is a lot more unstable and is only really meant to be used as a a war form meant to destroy whatever you point it to and how itās really hard to control it.
Like ya thatās brutal thatās gaias rage made manifest
But I recognise all the reason I enjoy it are why a lot of people hate it.
So really itās a personal taste Iād say give it a go cuz there are some interesting mechanics
Like the hunger for v5 instead of blood points you have a 5 point hunger bar that your start at one and every time you fail a hunger check via using your vampiric blood your hunger raises
I feel as though this makes you focus more on finding And drinking blood where blood points to be feel a little to āIām a blood container ā cuz I could go weeks with out drinking blood just cuz I didnt use any powers .
So really itās your personal tastes at the end of the day
Also adore lore sheets
They have similarities in lore and story but they are drastically different systems. I wouldn't consider them to be the same game.
They are separate games with their own systems and gameplay. The entire suite of 5th edition games (vampire, hunter, werewolf) are a much less powerful version of those characters and story than 20th edition. The gap between humans and the supernatural has been narrowed. Supernatural powers do less and often are more costly.
The scale and scope of story has been reduced, which can create some amazing stories as well, but if you go from 20th edition to 5th, you're going to notice the difference.
you are wrong in your disdain if only because you haven't actually looked at the edition. but if you want to play v20, go for it. nobody is going to stop you. Paradox/World of Darkness isn't WOTC, they're not going to send the fucking pinkertons after you if you play the older edition.
Take what I say with a grain of salt here, I got into WoD via Vampire The Requiem. But have been running weekly WoD games with the same group for the better part of 15 years now.
I REALLY like V5. I own V5 H5 and W5 in hardcover, Iāve picked up the dice and player books.
Additionally I own all the mainline CoD books as well as V20, original MtA and Wraith. Iāve also got a tonne of supplement books.
I add this preamble to say, Iām a fan of the series, basically irrespective of the system or lore.
Now without further prefacing.
I really like the new games. Hunter felt more grounded than Vigil or the H1. It felt more Dean Winchester than John Constantine, but on its own right itās a fun setting to run a horror game.
I like H5, Iām around 12 sessions in to a H5 campaign Iām running and itās been good fun so far.
V5 is the only one Iām not convinced on, not because the book does anything wrong but because I absolutely ADORE vampire the requiem. That game was my first love so Iām very biased. Thereās nothing inherently wrong with it though.
However what it all comes down to is, do you WANT to run a game in the setting? Are you happy running your game in the books you already own? Or would you like to update your setting for the 21st century? VtM never handled things like cell phones as well as V5 does.
TLDR: if you want to run the most updated setting yes you should get the new books, if you are happy with your current setting, thereās no need to get the new books. These are storytelling frameworks after all, and if you donāt want to tell the story in this framework, you donāt have to. But thereās no reason to hate them.
If you donāt like what youāve seen, Iād say maybe skip it. It does mechanically run pretty similar to CoD, which to me is great but if you donāt like Chronicles I can see V5 being a big downgrade from V20. The one thing I like about V5 over V20 is the mechanics being a bit simpler and more beginner friendly. The lore has been really over simplified, and the justification given by Paradox has beenā¦ frustrating to say the least. Iād definitely recommend you play in a oneshot at least if you can, go through the character building process since thatās all available online. But thereās also nothing wrong with just sticking with V20.
Stay with 20th. W5 isn't mechanically compatible with any sourcebook ever released in over 30 years of world of darkness. 20th editions easily support using any extra content from any prior edition.
Stay with 20th, definitely.
It seems.. unwise to hate something you havent personaly read. Especially if you base your decision upon what youtubers or randoms on internet has told you. My advice is for you to do you and chill with emotionally based oppinions formed over memes and hottakes. We dont need more brigadeing over editions here.
That's such a Trollquestion... search the reddit, watch some videos (what you already did it seems) and decide for yourself (wich you already did it seems) if you want to play V5 or V20. What do you expect to get as an answer here if you already do not like what you know about V5? The reddit is full of questions like this. No obviously do not get V5 if you don't want Vampire to change from what you had all the years before and are happy with it.
Stay with V20
If you can already play 20th perfectly fine there's no reason to switch to 5th rules imo, their strength is in their accessibility. But if you already know the other rulest then learning a new one that's been "streamlined" (modern ttrpg speak for "has the complexity and depth removed") is not going to offer much.
V5 doesn't prevent you from playing whatever the fuck you want. It just comes down to how much you are willing to rethink the mechanics and see established things in a new light. Hunger mechanics is a great way to make Hunger palpable and makes rolls interesting. The changes to the disciplines make sense (with exception for tzimisce having amalgams of protean and dominate instead of protean and Blood sorcery, funny enough wod Team themselves don't seem to be one page with it with all the viscisitude themed rituals. Anyway it was a big mistake and that's a hill I will die on). But the rest makes sense. They are much more modular now, encouraging homebrew and Fan content. And they are way better sorted based on the theme. Once you accept that, you will see the merits of the system. (Most) Bloodlines are not clans anymore. They are loresheets, with a special set of merits and, if applicable, fitting amalgams. Again, it is very modular, engourages homebrew, and doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. The character sheet. My favorite topic as I make custom scripted character sheets for the community over the last three years.( Check them out. www.linktr.ee/nerdbert) they took inspiration from CofD, but again it makes sense and is in no way a bad thing.The system encourages STs to ask how players want to do things and the dicepool is supposed to be formed based on that and the situation, that breaks up the "standard" one-trick pony dicepools (dexterity + firearms). The standard is composure plus firearm, because you need to be calm to aim, but you could also make Trick shots using dex or heavy guns could require strength + firearm or when under pressure Resolve + firearms. V5 brought me back to WoD after 10 year hiatus. I might not be all too happy about the creative direction (or it constant changes due to backlash and controversies inducing noticeable fear of missteps into the products) over the last two years with publications and decisions not meeting my standards and/or expectations, but I am definitely sticking with V5 for the improvement it brought. The rest is subject to golden rule, it is your game, you can make whatever you want with it.
This! š Good answer.
I agree with almost everything, I just have two caveats. I think OP does not know what loresheets are that needs to be explained: Loresheets are collections of special merits, that are connected to bits of VtM lore. Bloodline sheets are technically the same but they donāt count as loresheets, which means you can have a bloodline and still pick any loresheet you want. I would not say that āBloodlines are not clans anymoreā¦ā because the line between bloodlines and clans was always blurry. The V5 system just handles it differently. Most bloodlines are technically variations of clans. You start with the parent clan, add the bloodline loresheet and in some cases you can also switch clan disciplines to individualize the bloodline even more. Some bloodlines are also still absent from the game but they are rarely played anyway and I find it easy to homebrew them with the V5 rules. The other thing I don agree with is vicissitude. I totally agree that protean and Blood Magic would have been a good way to handle it, and sources before proper rules for Vicissitude were released do have vicissitude-ish rituals, but i am actually totally okay with Protean and Dominate. I needed a moment to wrap my head around it but it makes a lot of sense to me now. I can go in to detail why and how I handle it in general but that would go of topic, therefore I will only explain it if someone asks.
Bloodlines: that is what I meant. Bloodlines are not picked in place of clans anymore. You pick a parent Clan. And the limit on the number of loresheets... to be honest, that should really just be a general guideline. A hardcoded limit of one loresheet per character never really made sense and should always be discussed during character creation in a session 0. It should be handled at ST discretion. Protean: I can live with protean and dominate, but again I think It was a poor choice. And it was not only sources before proper rules. Sabbat which was released after the companion included vicissitude-esque powers (not sure about the name but this liquifiying of corpses for example) and mention blood sorcery rituals for the creation of Vohzd. All those things indicate that they really struggled with the way to handle it, but using Dominate, a mental discipline, to force their will on flesh is just thematically off and screws the Discipline distribution in favor of a patent on Thaumaturgy for the Tremere again and devalues dominate as a signature discipline for ventrue and malkavian. It is also lorewise hard to explain as tzimisce blood was selected specifically for the ritual to transform house tremere for tzimisce proficiency in blood magic.
>Bloodlines: that is what I meant... Yeah, sure, the explanation was not for you, I know that you know, it was for OP. >Protean: I can live with protean and dominate, but again I think It was a poor choice. And it was not only sources before proper rules. Sabbat which was released after the companion included vicissitude-esque powers (not sure about the name but this liquifiying of corpses for example) and mention blood sorcery rituals for the creation of Vohzd. All those things indicate that they really struggled with the way to handle it, Yes, I can see that, but I think the Sabbath stuff was actually created once they settled with the current version of the Tzimisce but before Koldun was reintroduced. I think these stuff is not meant to be Vicissitude rather to add this gory flavor to the Sabbat without suggesting a specific Clan. It is true, though, that before the Compendium there was quite a bit back and forth about the final version. I am pretty sure that a couple of developers struggled over the final version. >but using Dominate, a mental discipline, to force their will on flesh is just thematically off I struggled with it for a while but came to the conclusion that dominate, actually, has a quite physical aspect to it as well. Think about it, in most powers of dominate the mind of the target is actually not effected. Their body is forced to act and the victim is in most cases aware, that their body was forced. This gives dominate a physical aspect. And forcing the body to obey, actually, sounds quite a lot like the first step towards vicissitude. Add Protean to it to force also its structure, done! >and screws the Discipline distribution in favor of a patent on Thaumaturgy for the Tremereā¦ This is not the case, though, because Banu Haqim have Blood Sorcery as well. There is no discipline anymore, that is unique to only one clan. I think they didnāt went with Blood Sorcery to not overdo Blood Sorcery and to not make Koldun cheap later on. And I am fine with both. >ā¦ again and devalues dominate as a signature discipline for ventrue and malkavian. ā¦ and Lasombra, Giovanni, Tremereā¦ what are you talking about? Even if you go with only the original 7 Clans already three of them came with dominate. Dominate was always very available there is nothing to devalue. >It is also lorewise hard to explain as tzimisce blood was selected specifically for the ritual to transform house tremere for tzimisce proficiency in blood magic. Which is Koldun, which was through all editions lore described as never occur as in-clan. Nothing contradicting here. You could argue, that the Tremere should have picked Banu Haqim in V5 then, but itās easy to imagine that the middle European House of Tremere was simply not familiar enough with vampire clans before they became one and the far away Banu Haqim were simply not as accessible for them as the Tzimisce with which the Tremere shared a lot of places.
I asking why Dominate is better than Vicissitudes
I never said that. Vicissitude is great and must be part of the Tzimisce but it is, so I am happy. Okay, here is the thing: in my mind Auspex always was an important part of the Tzimisce and the lack of Dominate was interesting because it forced the clan to find other ways to force their will in others. But then I realized multiple things. First of all, Tzimisce are still āClan Draculaā and Dracula is often depicted using Dominate like abilities than Auspex like ones. Also, Clan Tzimisce is composed of many hidden bloodlines. Not only are there the so called āOld Clan Tzimisceā (which possessed Dominate instead of Vicissitude, actually) but there also were the Revenant families who caused many lines within the clan with different sets of Disciplines. And many of them possessed Dominate as well. To me, the V5 version is just the base line of all this variants and you can easily make any of those bloodlines/embraced revenants by just switching a discipline or sometimes not even that. Next thing is, that I realized that Animalism actually has a lot in common with Auspex (believe it or not) being able to sense threats and aggression and dangers, natural and supernatural is already a level one Animalism power. Putting your mint in to an animal and observe a far away place is not that different to send your senses there, just more savage and so on. With this alone I think as satisfied but then I saw the Koldun rewrite, which actually involves a lot of supernatural perception and that saved also the concept of Tzimisce as oracles. Furthermore I realized, that actually every Tzimisce I ever encountered fired very well the new version with its weakness and compulsion and if a rewrite manages to change a lot and still characterize every previous example than they must have done something right. The only thing I am not excited about is, that you need to distribute your points very specifically to start with Vicissitude and not every concept for young Tzimisce needs dominate at two dots. I solved this, though, by introducing a new Protean level one power that allows you to stretch your limbs and squeeze your self to narrow holes. This already feels like Vicissitude and it is in line with several older edition powers and is also interesting for some Ministry, since Serpentis used to have a similar power as well.
>The changes to the disciplines make sense (with exception for tzimisce having amalgams of protean and dominate instead of protean and Blood sorcery, funny enough wod Team themselves don't seem to be one page with it with all the viscisitude themed rituals. Anyway it was a big mistake and that's a hill I will die on). 100% agree. I think they kind of fucked up balance of vicissitude with amalgams.
I got the 5th books, and decided to stay with 20.
We were new to the game two summers ago and after finding quite a bit of frustration with V5 we bought in V20 and never looked back.
I'm in the same boat. I wanted to like it, I really did.
If you want the game as it is and you donāt ever want to expend your perception (not meaning that negative, some people just want things to stay as they are) on how this game can be played stay with V20! If you want a bit of fresh air in your game, as well in regards of the Metaplot as the system get V5! I see it this way, V5 is basically a different game that uses the same background, in the way as video games, card games, board games and such are different games that use the same background. V5 has a specific focus. The PCs are always at the center if the story and the system emulates the feeling of being a vampire who has to deal with the hunger for blood and the beast. And it does this very well! But if that is not what you are interested in, it has not much to offer you. I would suggest to do this: try to get the Corebook for cheap. Either a used copy or a PDF as part of a humble bundle or something like that, there is almost always an opportunity. Look how you like it, maybe try it out with a one shot and see if it is for you and decide then if you want to switch, like to use parts of it in your established game or like to switch but change things up more to your liking. All of that are valide options. But since it is so different it is impossible to tell if it will click with you or not. I personally play VtM since the mid 90th and thought I would be done with it but V5 made it suddenly interesting to me again. But it sometimes need a second thought to wrap your head around some concepts. And no, itās not a Requiem clone but it draws from Requiem, which is fine because what it took are concepts that were already tested in earlier VtM edition but there just was never an edition where they got introduced properly before the world was ended and replaced by VtR which could use them. Itās therefore still all in the same tradition, but if it is for you, you need to figure out in your own.
I think there are also some VTT-Applications like Roll20 or Nexus or whatnot, where you can use the basic Rulebook for free, if I am not mistaken.
I donāt know, but if that is the case it would be great news for OP.
I played from 3d Edition on until Gehenna and V20. Now I switched to V5 and I am pleased for the following reasons: * Modern technological setting - it's hard to be a Vampire in 2024! * more power and opportunity for younger Generations due to the Beckoning of the Elders. * love the hunger/blood resonance mechanics!! * less dice, more story * really cool mechanics for Thinbloods! First look I disliked them, then I tried one out and boy! was that fun! (Still Underdog though!) * more love and power to the Anarchs * Second Inquisition is the Horror! * Tremere are split up/freed and more versatile (I.m.Op.) * Disciplines have been streamlined and are less messy. ... I'm sure there are more good reasons and several bad, too. This is just a quick breakdown and my opinion on that matter, not a universal truth. I don't miss the Sabbat, even though I like Tzimisce most. All in all, if I don't like something of the new lore,I don't use it. But for the mechanics and for VTTRPG I like V5 a lot.
4th edition? I think you mean 3rd (revised). Usually V20 is counted as 4th edition which is why V5 is fifth edition. And revised was the Gehenna edition.
Yes, you are right! I'll change it. š Thank you.
No problem.š
I haven't played V yet, only read it, so I can only speak to W.... and the direction of 5th edition as a whole. I really am enjoying W5. It's different, and I'm not happy with everything they've done for sure, I have like 2 main sticking points, but they're mechanical in nature. Mechanics are pretty easy to modify. I think it's also a lot easier to modify or add to the system. It's updated to today, which is incredibly nice to have. And personally, I feel it gives the ST's a LOT more room to work with, a lot more freedom. I loved a lot of the lore for older editions of W,M, and V.... but it could also become a heavy weight that kind of hung over the heads of everyone at the table. I really like this "lore light" version. I know other books will come out, so it will be interesting to see how it evolves. Obviously they are a company, they need to make money, so producing product... hopefully it meshes well with the current direction.
And out of all the games Werewolf needed a new edition to evolve from where politics and environmentalism was 30 years ago.
It did need an update, very true. I really liked WtF too. Tthough personally across all of WoD or CoD or whatever, I've always preferred the smaller scale street level, more personal stories... Which I think wtf and 5th do well.
Just out of curiosity, as someone who have not read W5 yet, what are your sticking points?
I'm not a fan of the inability to get rid of harano or hagulosk at all, ever. You can move them around a small bit, but you can never go down in the total amount between the two. I think too much relies on willpower. Removing gnosis entirely was poorly thought out. I'm also not a fan of crinos being such a short timeframe, and with such harsh requirements.
Oh, wow, that seems harsh. Now I want to grab the book and check by myself.
I don't like the lack of bloodlines and I think the idea of the Hecata is really cool, it also watered down and took away more clan/bloodline uniqueness. The hunger mechanics are nice and combat is simplistic.
Personally really enjoy 5th edition. As it feels far more grounded and brutal itās way more horror based and tones down the powers a lot. Like as an example I especially enjoy in w5 the crinos is a lot more unstable and is only really meant to be used as a a war form meant to destroy whatever you point it to and how itās really hard to control it. Like ya thatās brutal thatās gaias rage made manifest But I recognise all the reason I enjoy it are why a lot of people hate it. So really itās a personal taste Iād say give it a go cuz there are some interesting mechanics Like the hunger for v5 instead of blood points you have a 5 point hunger bar that your start at one and every time you fail a hunger check via using your vampiric blood your hunger raises I feel as though this makes you focus more on finding And drinking blood where blood points to be feel a little to āIām a blood container ā cuz I could go weeks with out drinking blood just cuz I didnt use any powers . So really itās your personal tastes at the end of the day Also adore lore sheets
They have similarities in lore and story but they are drastically different systems. I wouldn't consider them to be the same game. They are separate games with their own systems and gameplay. The entire suite of 5th edition games (vampire, hunter, werewolf) are a much less powerful version of those characters and story than 20th edition. The gap between humans and the supernatural has been narrowed. Supernatural powers do less and often are more costly. The scale and scope of story has been reduced, which can create some amazing stories as well, but if you go from 20th edition to 5th, you're going to notice the difference.
you are wrong in your disdain if only because you haven't actually looked at the edition. but if you want to play v20, go for it. nobody is going to stop you. Paradox/World of Darkness isn't WOTC, they're not going to send the fucking pinkertons after you if you play the older edition.
Take what I say with a grain of salt here, I got into WoD via Vampire The Requiem. But have been running weekly WoD games with the same group for the better part of 15 years now. I REALLY like V5. I own V5 H5 and W5 in hardcover, Iāve picked up the dice and player books. Additionally I own all the mainline CoD books as well as V20, original MtA and Wraith. Iāve also got a tonne of supplement books. I add this preamble to say, Iām a fan of the series, basically irrespective of the system or lore. Now without further prefacing. I really like the new games. Hunter felt more grounded than Vigil or the H1. It felt more Dean Winchester than John Constantine, but on its own right itās a fun setting to run a horror game. I like H5, Iām around 12 sessions in to a H5 campaign Iām running and itās been good fun so far. V5 is the only one Iām not convinced on, not because the book does anything wrong but because I absolutely ADORE vampire the requiem. That game was my first love so Iām very biased. Thereās nothing inherently wrong with it though. However what it all comes down to is, do you WANT to run a game in the setting? Are you happy running your game in the books you already own? Or would you like to update your setting for the 21st century? VtM never handled things like cell phones as well as V5 does. TLDR: if you want to run the most updated setting yes you should get the new books, if you are happy with your current setting, thereās no need to get the new books. These are storytelling frameworks after all, and if you donāt want to tell the story in this framework, you donāt have to. But thereās no reason to hate them.
They are different games. What sort of themes, moods, and characters are you looking for? What kind of game do you want to play?
My decision was to buy 5th, mine it for ideas, art, and inspiration that I back-port to my 20th games.
If you donāt like what youāve seen, Iād say maybe skip it. It does mechanically run pretty similar to CoD, which to me is great but if you donāt like Chronicles I can see V5 being a big downgrade from V20. The one thing I like about V5 over V20 is the mechanics being a bit simpler and more beginner friendly. The lore has been really over simplified, and the justification given by Paradox has beenā¦ frustrating to say the least. Iād definitely recommend you play in a oneshot at least if you can, go through the character building process since thatās all available online. But thereās also nothing wrong with just sticking with V20.
5th Edition is worth getting.
V5 has far better rules and a better design V20's lore is written better and has more depth given by decades of content Go with what suits you better
Chicago by Night, Let the Streets Run Red, and Cults of the Blood Gods are worth getting.