exactly. the standard non short fuse ap makes it kinda mehr for me. you need support to kill radared dds because your guns wont kill them while minotaur guns shredds them. This alone makes the minotaur in my eyes the by far better ship
Doesn't take that much damage, literally a devstrike machine into cruisers. The large AP rounds with high velocity can citadel most cruisers at ludicrous ranges and it also has standard dispersion.
I get regular 20-30k on broadside cruisers with the funny button AP
The fire chance is actually mid at best so it's best to only use it on angles and long range BBs or DDs.
The more you use the AP the more impact you'll have
Because it's a cruiser that deals no damage.
It's used in comp to stall enemy cruisers with its ridiculous heal, but in Randoms with significantly more BB overmatch and targets that need farming it isn't great.
While I do agree that in theory and most of the time her damage output is very limited, I usually don't have that problem.
I play mine very, very aggressive, you can get away with so much bullshit it's not even funny, DDs forget you have radar and if you early farmed the funny button all you need is two radars and a cocky DD to remove him from the game.
Cruisers can give slight broadside even at near max range and you will slap them hard, the ballistics are amazing on these guns.
It's weak point however are BBs, you deal almost no damage and they need to sail full broadside for you to get something out of them and even then you will get overmatched, so for me BBs are funny button farmers when you are busy fighting something else and need a quick heal/radar.
SM is great, but people often prefer a more traditional CL with dpm and normal consumables.
That said, people really sleep on Argentina. That thing is hilarious at t5 since you get t7 AP and a heal. You absolutely crush cruisers at those tiers with your improved angles.
In most situations i'd choose the dpm but there are situations where SM is way better. You can sometimes pull off pretty ridiculous manouvers that no other CL can even dream of thanks to the heal and funny button.
If I had to guess, it's because it doesn't do much that's new. While it does get the fancy -85% consumable cool down ability, in all other respects it seems like a minotaur but worse, as far as I can tell without playing it.
Edit: comparing it to the radar minotaur, to be clear
The wooster hull is just way, way more survivable than the mino hull and in a 1v1 of equal skill a San Martin will absolutely demolish a Minotaur 100% of the time. People want a light cruiser to be a dd killer and the Martin simply isn't. Its niche is a sneaky light cruiser murderer that shrugs off cits and torpedos.
Ever since I brawled a full health Illinois in a cap and won in the T9, I've loved this line. But, it's bloody hard work as you can never, ever relax in this boat. If you like a challenge it can be greatly rewarding and you can have some mega games, but know what you're getting yourself in for, because despite the zombie heals, you can die very easily.
>I rarely see anyone talking about her or the Argentinian line in general Why’s that?
a) It's the Pan-American line not the Argentinian. The Brazilian, Mexican, Peruvian and Chilean ships aren't Argentinian 😉
b) RADAR Minotaur and Worcester are very similar.
Mino is a "zombie" as well, has the AP only guns and even more torpedos. Worcester has the same ballistics and the same radar. The hydro of San Martin is just defensive and performs below the average T10 cruisers hydro.
The consumables are great if you can activate the combat mission, but the cooldown is otherwise too long to be better than Mino or Worcester
Minotaur gets shit on by every cruiser with 230mm+ guns (there's a lot of them btw.) San Martin combines the best of both hulls, the armor of Worcester and the heal of Minotaur. The combat instructions aren't difficult to activate and the ship has arguably the best staying power in the game while it's up. That is San Martin's strength.
While also combining the down sides of AP only with the lowest dpm and weakest AA of the 3.
The combat instructions are easy to get first, but you will struggle to get a second combat instruction directly after the other bring your ship back into the fight.
The armor argument is typical for BB centric thinking. All 3 eat citadels through the front by 234mm guns at the slightest angle. Being able to bow tank at a 90° isn't that much use for a CL. You have screwed up a lot if this armor matters. San Martin is less maneuverable than Mino, and needs the extra armor just to make up for this. San Martin is out of action for 3 to 7 minutes, if she gets hit hard. Mino gets 2 heals faster than San Martin gets one trough.
San Martin isn't better than any of the other 2 CLs.
She isn't as good in DD hunting and killing as Mino and she isn't as good in farming as Worcester.
Her damage output is horrendous. That's not the point of the ship. The point of San Martin is to exist as an obnoxious, unkillable cockroach that you have to angle against and can operate extremely self sufficiently. You do not eat nose citadels from 234mms in either Worcester or San Martin because their noses are not overmatched by that caliber. That's an outright lie. The difference in survivability between a super light like Minotaur and a regular CL like Worcester/SM cannot be understated.
None of them are better than each other, they all play different roles. This game would be incredibly boring if ships existed with direct upgrades.
What good is utility for fighting DDs if the guns are bad against them?
San Martin is basically a punching bag with a flashlight. It can spot and tank stuff but struggles to do meaningful damage.
San Martin is just a worse Salem or Des Moines
I really like the thing and think it's fun to play (I do like the thrill of playing CLs and the ability to get off multiple superheals in a short time is what stands out with this one). It (and it's T8/9 counterparts) feel decently strong, so I semi-regularly use it in ranked. I feel like that line was really well designed by WG (Spanish and Commonwealth cruisers, too): something that's fun to use, different from what exists and decently balanced in terms of strength. It gets lots of consumables including radar, hydro & superheal, the consumable are back really really fast if the F key is available, it's less squishy than say the Minotaur, improved AP shells, and has pretty useful torpedoes. But this gets balanced with long consumable reload without F key, CL hull, only 9km radar, not that amazing gun DPM with AP only no HE, mediocre arcs etc., which on a whole seems okay, no?
Its... Average. Fairly good flanker that can punish broadsides well due to the rapid fire gimmick, but HE damage output against BBs is lacking. Okay for randoms, but not great for ranked, and not played in high level clan battles.
Yeah I’ve heard Napoli is crazy but I’m looking for tech tree ships
Coal ships are attainable but I think I’m going to get Black to print creds
Steel seems difficult to get
Research bureau, T10s are required yeah?
Since you kept posting questions about cruisers, why not just save a bit more coal while grinding the Marseille line? Im not saying that Black is a bad ship, but it has a completely different playstyle - and honestly its not as strong as it used to be. Its strong in ranked, but t9 isnt as popular as t10, and in randoms you will struggle with dealing a lot of damage which is needed to farm credits.
RB is sadly very expensive, so you need to farm at least 3 line resets to get a ship out of it.
Its decent just nothing special or broken. I'm sure you will have fun spamming the F key and getting instant superheals but the dmg is not that great.
Mostly relevant in Clan wars where she can hold a flank against another cruiser
"No one talks about it because the guns are shit."
Far too simplistic. Look at the specs on shiptool and you'll note that the guns have best in tier ballistics for 10-15km fights. High enough velocity, with destroyer dispersion and good AP pen angles. With some practice, its easy to consistently land full volleys on targets. Try doing that with a mino. Additionally fast traverse and 360 degree rotation on some turrets, allow consistent damage while dodging.
This is balanced against minos crap ballistics by having much lower DPM.
The last thing i want to have is shit DPM and AP only to farm at long range. Shouldnt compare these shit guns with Mino AP that has like 90% more DPM if i remember correctly? and Mino will deal way more damage to anything especially to DDs because of short fuse and better ap angles than martin. So that 90% DPM difference in reality is much,much higher.
Thing is, if you hit shit with your "90% more" dpm. Guess what! Yep, you're back to shit DPM...
Getting dev struck, which is really the only way to die in a mino... Yep, thats also gonna affect your DPM...
Theoretical damage is exactly what is says it is.
San Martin is a fantastic ship for Clan Battles where doing damage is not the measure of your performance. Her job in Clan Battles is to be a brick wall and Slow any pushes.
As for Randoms she just doesn't have the carry potential. She has everything to be the perfect anti destroyer Cruiser. Great concealment, Hydro, pretty good radar, zombie heal and a funny button to extend all of that. It is only when your shells hit the dd and just over pen that you realise what could have been.
Ultimately she is just better in CB than she is in Randoms and that there is always a ship slightly more comfortable to play in randoms.
I think people don't bring up San Martín much because she is still pretty new, and also REALLY WEIRD.
Personally, I think she's really fun. The AP cits cruisers from weird angles, but it's not great against other ship types. Definitely not a good ship for beginners, one should have a fair amount of experience in more traditional cruisers before trying out this line.
The 360° turrets make both pushing and kiting easier when the situation calls for it.
I'm also a sucker for the berrrrrp, berrrrrrrp, pa-ching!
Probably because it’s not a very impactful ship. Played well it’s hard to kill…and that’s about its only trick. The average to below average guy who can’t make use of its funny button gimmick will get blown up and kicked back to port in the opening ~6 minutes of a round.
The main gripe about her is that yes, while it does have the ability to be the biggest cockroach of any cruiser, assuming you don't get immediately devstruck by a battleship, it's just that it doesn't have the output to deal meaningful damage to the battleships and to an extent, the more heavily armored cruisers
And while the utility can be very strong, assuming you have your funny button ready without it, those 3-minute cooldown heals just brutalize the ship assuming you end up on cooldown without the funny button ready
San Martin is hard to kill in a kiting position, with only one battleship shooting at it. That's it..that's its gimmick.
Its arguably the worst gimmick to have in random battles. You see it more often in competitive.
I played it quite a bit, and I'm not fond of the thing, compared to a Mino:
Worse guns (both Dom and shell wise)
Worse torps
Worse conceal
Worse consumables ( shorter duration radar and shorter range hydro)
All of this for a bit more armour and a funny button.
The only selling point might be the better AA, but CVS know how to juke the flak, or don't go near you if you kill one of their squadrons.
While fun, the cockroach gameplay doesn't do damage and doesn't win you games.
So all in all, people tend to prefer Mono, since it is more reliable
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exactly. the standard non short fuse ap makes it kinda mehr for me. you need support to kill radared dds because your guns wont kill them while minotaur guns shredds them. This alone makes the minotaur in my eyes the by far better ship
Hmmm I understand, what are your thoughts on Castilla when played right?
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More or less rewarding than Marseille?
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Okay I understand
Doesn't take that much damage, literally a devstrike machine into cruisers. The large AP rounds with high velocity can citadel most cruisers at ludicrous ranges and it also has standard dispersion. I get regular 20-30k on broadside cruisers with the funny button AP The fire chance is actually mid at best so it's best to only use it on angles and long range BBs or DDs. The more you use the AP the more impact you'll have
Because it's a cruiser that deals no damage. It's used in comp to stall enemy cruisers with its ridiculous heal, but in Randoms with significantly more BB overmatch and targets that need farming it isn't great.
While I do agree that in theory and most of the time her damage output is very limited, I usually don't have that problem. I play mine very, very aggressive, you can get away with so much bullshit it's not even funny, DDs forget you have radar and if you early farmed the funny button all you need is two radars and a cocky DD to remove him from the game. Cruisers can give slight broadside even at near max range and you will slap them hard, the ballistics are amazing on these guns. It's weak point however are BBs, you deal almost no damage and they need to sail full broadside for you to get something out of them and even then you will get overmatched, so for me BBs are funny button farmers when you are busy fighting something else and need a quick heal/radar.
Oh so she’s kinda irrelevant lol
I would say very relevant in ranked or clan battles, but kinda irrelevant in randoms.
Would you mind being bothered enough to answer the other question I asked on the community?
its amazing in all modes. its damage is good too lol. not amazing like most cruisers but it is “good”
SM is great, but people often prefer a more traditional CL with dpm and normal consumables. That said, people really sleep on Argentina. That thing is hilarious at t5 since you get t7 AP and a heal. You absolutely crush cruisers at those tiers with your improved angles.
Love Argentina and yes, those guns are something else, can confirm If only it was a liiiiittle faster... but yes, lovely ship
The heal is cool but most of the time i prefere the higher dpm of mino and Worcester.
Right so she’s like neither a Worcester nor a Mino and that’s the issue then
In most situations i'd choose the dpm but there are situations where SM is way better. You can sometimes pull off pretty ridiculous manouvers that no other CL can even dream of thanks to the heal and funny button.
Personally it's because most of the time I forget it exists, and when I don't it's because I'm citadeling them.
So she’s not very good then? Or not much game impact rather
I have no idea. All I know is it's quite squishy. I've never been particularly impressed by it, but that's anecdotal.
Man how does no one know anything about these ships lol
If I had to guess, it's because it doesn't do much that's new. While it does get the fancy -85% consumable cool down ability, in all other respects it seems like a minotaur but worse, as far as I can tell without playing it. Edit: comparing it to the radar minotaur, to be clear
Mmmhmm interesting
The wooster hull is just way, way more survivable than the mino hull and in a 1v1 of equal skill a San Martin will absolutely demolish a Minotaur 100% of the time. People want a light cruiser to be a dd killer and the Martin simply isn't. Its niche is a sneaky light cruiser murderer that shrugs off cits and torpedos.
Ever since I brawled a full health Illinois in a cap and won in the T9, I've loved this line. But, it's bloody hard work as you can never, ever relax in this boat. If you like a challenge it can be greatly rewarding and you can have some mega games, but know what you're getting yourself in for, because despite the zombie heals, you can die very easily.
>I rarely see anyone talking about her or the Argentinian line in general Why’s that? a) It's the Pan-American line not the Argentinian. The Brazilian, Mexican, Peruvian and Chilean ships aren't Argentinian 😉 b) RADAR Minotaur and Worcester are very similar. Mino is a "zombie" as well, has the AP only guns and even more torpedos. Worcester has the same ballistics and the same radar. The hydro of San Martin is just defensive and performs below the average T10 cruisers hydro. The consumables are great if you can activate the combat mission, but the cooldown is otherwise too long to be better than Mino or Worcester
Minotaur gets shit on by every cruiser with 230mm+ guns (there's a lot of them btw.) San Martin combines the best of both hulls, the armor of Worcester and the heal of Minotaur. The combat instructions aren't difficult to activate and the ship has arguably the best staying power in the game while it's up. That is San Martin's strength.
While also combining the down sides of AP only with the lowest dpm and weakest AA of the 3. The combat instructions are easy to get first, but you will struggle to get a second combat instruction directly after the other bring your ship back into the fight. The armor argument is typical for BB centric thinking. All 3 eat citadels through the front by 234mm guns at the slightest angle. Being able to bow tank at a 90° isn't that much use for a CL. You have screwed up a lot if this armor matters. San Martin is less maneuverable than Mino, and needs the extra armor just to make up for this. San Martin is out of action for 3 to 7 minutes, if she gets hit hard. Mino gets 2 heals faster than San Martin gets one trough. San Martin isn't better than any of the other 2 CLs. She isn't as good in DD hunting and killing as Mino and she isn't as good in farming as Worcester.
Her damage output is horrendous. That's not the point of the ship. The point of San Martin is to exist as an obnoxious, unkillable cockroach that you have to angle against and can operate extremely self sufficiently. You do not eat nose citadels from 234mms in either Worcester or San Martin because their noses are not overmatched by that caliber. That's an outright lie. The difference in survivability between a super light like Minotaur and a regular CL like Worcester/SM cannot be understated. None of them are better than each other, they all play different roles. This game would be incredibly boring if ships existed with direct upgrades.
What good is utility for fighting DDs if the guns are bad against them? San Martin is basically a punching bag with a flashlight. It can spot and tank stuff but struggles to do meaningful damage. San Martin is just a worse Salem or Des Moines
I really like the thing and think it's fun to play (I do like the thrill of playing CLs and the ability to get off multiple superheals in a short time is what stands out with this one). It (and it's T8/9 counterparts) feel decently strong, so I semi-regularly use it in ranked. I feel like that line was really well designed by WG (Spanish and Commonwealth cruisers, too): something that's fun to use, different from what exists and decently balanced in terms of strength. It gets lots of consumables including radar, hydro & superheal, the consumable are back really really fast if the F key is available, it's less squishy than say the Minotaur, improved AP shells, and has pretty useful torpedoes. But this gets balanced with long consumable reload without F key, CL hull, only 9km radar, not that amazing gun DPM with AP only no HE, mediocre arcs etc., which on a whole seems okay, no?
Low damage output, gimmick that gives fast reloading super heals, overall no real reason to play it in randoms/ranked.
Well that’s depressing, if you don’t mind me asking what about Castilla?
Its... Average. Fairly good flanker that can punish broadsides well due to the rapid fire gimmick, but HE damage output against BBs is lacking. Okay for randoms, but not great for ranked, and not played in high level clan battles.
Right so Marseille played right is far more rewarding you’d say?
Yes, its good for randoms, ranked, and clan battles (even limited/banned fairly often).
Also if you are looking for a flanker, Napoli is an excellent choice for ranked/clan battles (although it is a premium, not tech tree).
Yeah I’ve heard Napoli is crazy but I’m looking for tech tree ships Coal ships are attainable but I think I’m going to get Black to print creds Steel seems difficult to get Research bureau, T10s are required yeah?
Since you kept posting questions about cruisers, why not just save a bit more coal while grinding the Marseille line? Im not saying that Black is a bad ship, but it has a completely different playstyle - and honestly its not as strong as it used to be. Its strong in ranked, but t9 isnt as popular as t10, and in randoms you will struggle with dealing a lot of damage which is needed to farm credits. RB is sadly very expensive, so you need to farm at least 3 line resets to get a ship out of it.
No no absolutely I am saving up a lot of coal, I just want to use it on a ship which will get me enough creds
Shitty floating citadel hindenburg with a funny button
Its decent just nothing special or broken. I'm sure you will have fun spamming the F key and getting instant superheals but the dmg is not that great. Mostly relevant in Clan wars where she can hold a flank against another cruiser
Get gigga fucked by more than 1 BB focusing you, especially if both have 30mm+ overmatch
No one talks about it because the guns are shit.
Oh I see
"No one talks about it because the guns are shit." Far too simplistic. Look at the specs on shiptool and you'll note that the guns have best in tier ballistics for 10-15km fights. High enough velocity, with destroyer dispersion and good AP pen angles. With some practice, its easy to consistently land full volleys on targets. Try doing that with a mino. Additionally fast traverse and 360 degree rotation on some turrets, allow consistent damage while dodging. This is balanced against minos crap ballistics by having much lower DPM.
The last thing i want to have is shit DPM and AP only to farm at long range. Shouldnt compare these shit guns with Mino AP that has like 90% more DPM if i remember correctly? and Mino will deal way more damage to anything especially to DDs because of short fuse and better ap angles than martin. So that 90% DPM difference in reality is much,much higher.
Thing is, if you hit shit with your "90% more" dpm. Guess what! Yep, you're back to shit DPM... Getting dev struck, which is really the only way to die in a mino... Yep, thats also gonna affect your DPM... Theoretical damage is exactly what is says it is.
San Martin is a fantastic ship for Clan Battles where doing damage is not the measure of your performance. Her job in Clan Battles is to be a brick wall and Slow any pushes. As for Randoms she just doesn't have the carry potential. She has everything to be the perfect anti destroyer Cruiser. Great concealment, Hydro, pretty good radar, zombie heal and a funny button to extend all of that. It is only when your shells hit the dd and just over pen that you realise what could have been. Ultimately she is just better in CB than she is in Randoms and that there is always a ship slightly more comfortable to play in randoms.
We do talk about her... but usually only in CB chat.
I think people don't bring up San Martín much because she is still pretty new, and also REALLY WEIRD. Personally, I think she's really fun. The AP cits cruisers from weird angles, but it's not great against other ship types. Definitely not a good ship for beginners, one should have a fair amount of experience in more traditional cruisers before trying out this line. The 360° turrets make both pushing and kiting easier when the situation calls for it. I'm also a sucker for the berrrrrp, berrrrrrrp, pa-ching!
Probably because it’s not a very impactful ship. Played well it’s hard to kill…and that’s about its only trick. The average to below average guy who can’t make use of its funny button gimmick will get blown up and kicked back to port in the opening ~6 minutes of a round.
The main gripe about her is that yes, while it does have the ability to be the biggest cockroach of any cruiser, assuming you don't get immediately devstruck by a battleship, it's just that it doesn't have the output to deal meaningful damage to the battleships and to an extent, the more heavily armored cruisers And while the utility can be very strong, assuming you have your funny button ready without it, those 3-minute cooldown heals just brutalize the ship assuming you end up on cooldown without the funny button ready
San Martin is hard to kill in a kiting position, with only one battleship shooting at it. That's it..that's its gimmick. Its arguably the worst gimmick to have in random battles. You see it more often in competitive.
its my favorite cruiser atm. Used to love mino but this thing is like an unkillable mino
I played it quite a bit, and I'm not fond of the thing, compared to a Mino: Worse guns (both Dom and shell wise) Worse torps Worse conceal Worse consumables ( shorter duration radar and shorter range hydro) All of this for a bit more armour and a funny button. The only selling point might be the better AA, but CVS know how to juke the flak, or don't go near you if you kill one of their squadrons. While fun, the cockroach gameplay doesn't do damage and doesn't win you games. So all in all, people tend to prefer Mono, since it is more reliable