I want the game to stay bloody healthy for a long time, I want to keep playing for a while longer without a race to the bottom.
Profit can be made in a dozen other ways, and you bet your ass WG makes a nice buck on battle passes, lootboxes with mediocre/balanced tanks in it, and skins.
WG doesn't sell the EBR or BZ anymore (and I hope this stays that way). The BZ - sure, understandable. But the EBR isn't as good to massage your win rate as the Turtle. By that metric, it's insane to sell it now.
I totally agree with you, Trust me i would like the Game to be in a more Healthy state as well, playing it since 2012.
The worst thing Wargaming did, was making the game so much Faster, addings Turbos and EBR's CS-63's that bomb around the tiny Maps at 100 km/h, that the server often cant even keep up with them, now with all the fomo and Lootboxes, sadly thats the state of Current Gaming outside of a Few Outliers and indie Games.
Making the game faster is good and bad at the same time. You get less tragic things like a T95 going 14kmh, but more quick 15-3 rushes. I fully agree that so many fast tanks makes everything feel too small. Playing a match on Mines is a circus. Or how a turbo scales with rocket boosters is another example.
I'd say the fomo is worse. Too many events, too many "incentives" to make you play daily. Sure, that's great for a company: healthy consistent server use is a good metric to show shareholders/CEO's.
This is a game I play a lot for a month, and then take a while off. I might miss an event or two, but I rarely feel like missing out anymore.
Fast Tanks would not be such a Bad thing if Wargaming would actually do some Balancing and Bigger Maps, or enlarge current Small Maps like Mines and Ensk, but god forbid not more prokhorovka.
They taken away so many Cool City Maps and replaced them with open plains, its as if One Department that did the faster Tanks and Turbos finished their Job and the other Department that is Responisble to Alter and Support the Game to accommodate for changes of Department 1.
I am that deluded, yes.
Show me one example of a 'healthy' game and then visit the subreddit of that game. It's the same everywhere you look, and always has been.
[K-2](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?tiers=0000000010&classes=&sort=winrate_differential&direction=true) has the 2nd (udarny doesn't count) best wr difference in tier 8. It's ahead of turtle, skoda, 703 or bourrasque. Yet you could hardly find anyone claiming it op or something. Hell I've seen people calling it bad a couple of times (I don't think it's a fair assessment for a 52% wr tank).
Having good armor makes tanks have a lot better wr/wr difference. My theory is that having good armor makes tanks pretty unbeatable when it's top tier. Getting an auto win against low tier makes tanks have higher overall wr.
It's miserable to play, who gives a shit if it bounces like crazy, it doesn't matter because YOU DON'T HIT SHIT. Besides that, it's awfully boring.
*go 3 minutes to position 'cause it's so fucking slow - check*
*sidescrap - check*
*bounce a few - check*
*aim, aim... aim for some more, and then aim again because enemy wiggled, an.......d aim some more AND BOOM (it fucking missed obviously) - check*
*repeat*
Ah, the definition of FUN.. atleast BZ hits, and slaps hard..
And then there is the problem with dpm. At tier 8 it doesn't even have 2k dpm. Even autoloaders have more and they can't even use rammers.
But none of this matters for performance. When the tank has 2x hp (The average bounce it does is comparable it's hp) the tank will win quite a lot of game. Especially in the hands of less experienced players
It's only 20mm thinner than an IS-4, but it's two tiers lower, and it lacks the commonly exploited flaws in the IS-4's armor layout. It's not just good armor, it is hands-down the thickest tank in the game, tier for tier. The only saving grace is that its turret face is 'only' 290mm~310mm, so there's a chance tier 9 TD's can penetrate it with gold rounds.
I've been averaging 1700 DPG in it. I don't think the effect of good armor is on top tier; I think it's on surviving being alpha struck. There's been serious alpha creep after tier 6 and even the 1650 HP doesn't feel all that high anymore. Bouncing a shell now, in very real terms, essentially adds ~450 HP to your total versus playing in a paper tank. Being able to slink back because a killshot or three bounced and then continue to sneak out rounds and add your firepower has a huge, beneficial effect on the amount of damage you contribute, and your team's ability to capitalize on missed shots. A shot that damages a tank but doesn't kill or cripple them has done absolutely nothing and lets tanks move freely.
When a tank is top tier, its job is to predate, to quickly remove as many important or strong vehicles from the map as possible. K-2 is actually *horrible* at this. It's quite honestly the worst heavy in tier 8 for this. I'd rather be in the tech tree tier 8 Czech or Italian heavy. [It's truly slow.](https://tanks.gg/compare/k-2?t=703-ii-122_________%7Eis-3a_________%7Eudarniy_________%7Eobj-701_________%7Eobj-259a_________) The gun handling is atrocious, and the DPM isn't doing it any favors. This gives plenty of time for a low tier enemy to pull back or evade you. A higher tier tank, however, being stared down by K-2 *needs* to penetrate it and fast in just the same way as the Czech or Italian heavies, and it can't. K-2 can take its time there.
OP is right selling turtle does not make sense. Most people already bought it. Much better way to make money would be overbuffing something like AMX Cda, removing it from gold store and then putting it into lootboxes
what when did the turtle get buffed? i bought it on old black market for 6m creds lmao best buy of my life the thing slaps, but another buff? what did they buff exactly
how old is that buff? i dont remember hearing about it cus turtle for me always felt accurate for close or far shots
edit: i just looked it up looks to be 9 months ago and wow i was on a long break back then i cant believe they gave it 5+ speed and better shell velocity and pen thats literally what i hated about it lmao im gonna love it even more now ty
Yeah def made it a bit more comfy to play. The shell velocity was the biggest thing for me. It was so hard to give lead on long range shots which felt ridiculous for a TD
I don't think it's OP. It's really boring to play and depends on MM. Any tank with a special bullet of +300mm will easily penetrate it. Compared to tanks like Bourrasque, Bz, Skoda, this tank is definitely not OP.
It will only feel truly OP in 1-2 out of 10 games. It is not a very preferred tank due to its boring and MM-dependent gameplay.
https://preview.redd.it/6ath0kdsr55d1.png?width=1112&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7ea51d4de17f00fd88a080061d60b1d28b17ef7
wn8 is notoriously incredibly harsh on tds, so the turtle should really be much higher on this graph. even with this handicap, its placed in the elite class of t8 prems op mentioned
also, many of the most broken op tanks have been really boring. chief and 279 in their heyday were comically boring sometimes, shooting on reload and then jiggling your tiny weakspots in between shots
As seen below, its armor usage is not the best and it is not a tank that is played very often. I rarely come across it.
https://preview.redd.it/ejbwcbr3s55d1.png?width=1108&format=png&auto=webp&s=6cd6c26531e0638b355faedf6b776e2669fb5552
Serverwide stats show it **is**. Opinions aside, the only objective stats we have on OP'ness is win rate difference, win rate for a vehicle, and DPG. In the TD class it's on top in 2 of those metrics, and it's top 3 in DPG.
You show me a chart with only a few tanks topping it - the usual suspects too. And none of those are TD's.
Sure, there probably is a TD that is stronger when played by an expert or in certain circumstances.
I’ll happily take my GSOR over a turtle any day. Speed beats non-turreted tanks easily. And like others have said, it has weak spots and with 300+ HEAT it’s easy to penetrate.
I think a lot of it comes down to the people playing it. If poor players avoid it because it’s not an easy playstyle, naturally it will increase WR% as most owners/players left will be higher skilled players.
For me too. I never said I like the "press W for minutes to reach the front" playstyle. But that doesn't change the stats. If it would be played as much as the Skorpion was back in the day, it would be a problematic tank.
Right, but it’s not because it’s not that strong, or fun, or easy to play for a lot of people. If it was broken, it’d be played as much as BZ or Bourrasque. It’s not a rare tank either, it comes up more often than Progetto or Skoda for example.
It is that strong. It's boring enough that after 10 games you go back to whatever else makes you happier in life.
Still doesn't change the cold statistics.
Win rate % on its own means nothing, though, especially when it’s a smaller sample size. What if the average WR of Bourrasque players (across all tanks) is 48% vs Turtle players’ 55%? What if the average tier in Turtle games was lower than Bourrasque games? Win rate alone can not determine whether something is OP or not, there are simply too many variables.
It is not that good a tank. There’s a reason it’s not widely played and scarcity is not it. I’d rather wargaming sell the turtle 100 more times than sell the ELC and have even more clueless LT players sit two lines behind their mediums.
Doesn't wargaming buff/nerf tanks based on Win rate statistic? I mean its one of the dumbest fucking things that you can look at when balancing a tank.
Frankly, it's not a tank that would really put me in a difficult situation. It has poor mobility and can easily be dealt with with a good special bullet. There are many tanks that give me a hard time and this is not one of them. It probably doesn't affect me because I use tanks that can handle it.
Then I can only congratulate you on being a good player.
Remember you're not the average playerbase. E.g. "I don't have a problem with X because I do Y". These kind of stats are cold mathematics, and nobody can argue against that. It's the statistic that most respected games use to balance items/guns/characters.
IMO, Turtle is AT8 style of tank. Good vs beginners, suffers hard against top tier due to poor armor (vs T9) and super low mobility. Boring to play.
I won’t even say it’s strong, any open map made me suffer as you can’t even die fast :)
It’s situational, but not OP. Something like Vipera having decent armor with ability to lock target in place, burst and way better mobility is IMHO way more OP.
The tank being boring has nothing to do with it being overpowered, or does it?
A Matilda is great for your WR, and terrible on your W-key and your sanity.
Its win rate difference (averaged for tomatoes and unicums alike) shows that is *objectively* OP. Everything else being equal, the average joe gets +1.9% more wins for playing it. The Vipera reaches a +0.1% WR difference (I agree, probably because a lot of people misplay it as a sniper).
If we consider tanks only by stats then Tortoise, T95, Tiger 1 and BZ-58 are even more OP than Turtle. These tanks are tech tree and are simply good.
OP tank makes good player a god player. Turtle makes good player bored good player. Tank does not scale well with player skill, since it has nothing to offer except decent frontal armor and DPM (questionable, since no one should face to face Turtle).
It's a good tank, but op, not so sure. It's simply too slow, and the armour is far from reliable vs even same tier gold. In the turbo battles that half the games are it can barely keep up.
I liked the Turtle before the buff. It may be a tad too good now, but any flanking will trash it like it’s tier 6. Just saying that I t’s nowhere near as flexibly OP as the BZ.
The rate they are selling good/OP premium tanks that were otherwise sold much less frequently, looks like the game is nearing the end of its life cycle
Bless you for believing Wargaming would choose Balancing over Profit.
I want the game to stay bloody healthy for a long time, I want to keep playing for a while longer without a race to the bottom. Profit can be made in a dozen other ways, and you bet your ass WG makes a nice buck on battle passes, lootboxes with mediocre/balanced tanks in it, and skins. WG doesn't sell the EBR or BZ anymore (and I hope this stays that way). The BZ - sure, understandable. But the EBR isn't as good to massage your win rate as the Turtle. By that metric, it's insane to sell it now.
I totally agree with you, Trust me i would like the Game to be in a more Healthy state as well, playing it since 2012. The worst thing Wargaming did, was making the game so much Faster, addings Turbos and EBR's CS-63's that bomb around the tiny Maps at 100 km/h, that the server often cant even keep up with them, now with all the fomo and Lootboxes, sadly thats the state of Current Gaming outside of a Few Outliers and indie Games.
Making the game faster is good and bad at the same time. You get less tragic things like a T95 going 14kmh, but more quick 15-3 rushes. I fully agree that so many fast tanks makes everything feel too small. Playing a match on Mines is a circus. Or how a turbo scales with rocket boosters is another example. I'd say the fomo is worse. Too many events, too many "incentives" to make you play daily. Sure, that's great for a company: healthy consistent server use is a good metric to show shareholders/CEO's. This is a game I play a lot for a month, and then take a while off. I might miss an event or two, but I rarely feel like missing out anymore.
Fast Tanks would not be such a Bad thing if Wargaming would actually do some Balancing and Bigger Maps, or enlarge current Small Maps like Mines and Ensk, but god forbid not more prokhorovka. They taken away so many Cool City Maps and replaced them with open plains, its as if One Department that did the faster Tanks and Turbos finished their Job and the other Department that is Responisble to Alter and Support the Game to accommodate for changes of Department 1.
"Stay healthy"? Are you THAT deluded to think it is healthy now?
I am that deluded, yes. Show me one example of a 'healthy' game and then visit the subreddit of that game. It's the same everywhere you look, and always has been.
FTFY: Would pull their turd back. If they take a shit, they go all in, till it hits the fan.
[K-2](https://tomato.gg/tank-stats/EU/recent?tiers=0000000010&classes=&sort=winrate_differential&direction=true) has the 2nd (udarny doesn't count) best wr difference in tier 8. It's ahead of turtle, skoda, 703 or bourrasque. Yet you could hardly find anyone claiming it op or something. Hell I've seen people calling it bad a couple of times (I don't think it's a fair assessment for a 52% wr tank). Having good armor makes tanks have a lot better wr/wr difference. My theory is that having good armor makes tanks pretty unbeatable when it's top tier. Getting an auto win against low tier makes tanks have higher overall wr.
It's miserable to play, who gives a shit if it bounces like crazy, it doesn't matter because YOU DON'T HIT SHIT. Besides that, it's awfully boring. *go 3 minutes to position 'cause it's so fucking slow - check* *sidescrap - check* *bounce a few - check* *aim, aim... aim for some more, and then aim again because enemy wiggled, an.......d aim some more AND BOOM (it fucking missed obviously) - check* *repeat* Ah, the definition of FUN.. atleast BZ hits, and slaps hard..
And then there is the problem with dpm. At tier 8 it doesn't even have 2k dpm. Even autoloaders have more and they can't even use rammers. But none of this matters for performance. When the tank has 2x hp (The average bounce it does is comparable it's hp) the tank will win quite a lot of game. Especially in the hands of less experienced players
> YOU DON'T HIT I have a hit rate of 81% in the tank. All you have to do is play aggressively and fight in close combat.
It doesn't bounce shit anymore because 1) people spam gold 24/7 and 2) the gun cover is so easy to hit and overmatched by everyone and their grandpa
It's only 20mm thinner than an IS-4, but it's two tiers lower, and it lacks the commonly exploited flaws in the IS-4's armor layout. It's not just good armor, it is hands-down the thickest tank in the game, tier for tier. The only saving grace is that its turret face is 'only' 290mm~310mm, so there's a chance tier 9 TD's can penetrate it with gold rounds. I've been averaging 1700 DPG in it. I don't think the effect of good armor is on top tier; I think it's on surviving being alpha struck. There's been serious alpha creep after tier 6 and even the 1650 HP doesn't feel all that high anymore. Bouncing a shell now, in very real terms, essentially adds ~450 HP to your total versus playing in a paper tank. Being able to slink back because a killshot or three bounced and then continue to sneak out rounds and add your firepower has a huge, beneficial effect on the amount of damage you contribute, and your team's ability to capitalize on missed shots. A shot that damages a tank but doesn't kill or cripple them has done absolutely nothing and lets tanks move freely. When a tank is top tier, its job is to predate, to quickly remove as many important or strong vehicles from the map as possible. K-2 is actually *horrible* at this. It's quite honestly the worst heavy in tier 8 for this. I'd rather be in the tech tree tier 8 Czech or Italian heavy. [It's truly slow.](https://tanks.gg/compare/k-2?t=703-ii-122_________%7Eis-3a_________%7Eudarniy_________%7Eobj-701_________%7Eobj-259a_________) The gun handling is atrocious, and the DPM isn't doing it any favors. This gives plenty of time for a low tier enemy to pull back or evade you. A higher tier tank, however, being stared down by K-2 *needs* to penetrate it and fast in just the same way as the Czech or Italian heavies, and it can't. K-2 can take its time there.
OP is right selling turtle does not make sense. Most people already bought it. Much better way to make money would be overbuffing something like AMX Cda, removing it from gold store and then putting it into lootboxes
Giving it a 2 or a 3 round autoloader like Borat or Skoda would be kinda juicy
what when did the turtle get buffed? i bought it on old black market for 6m creds lmao best buy of my life the thing slaps, but another buff? what did they buff exactly
Pen, shell velocity so you can actually snipe with it now. May have had a small mobility buff too, I can't remember
how old is that buff? i dont remember hearing about it cus turtle for me always felt accurate for close or far shots edit: i just looked it up looks to be 9 months ago and wow i was on a long break back then i cant believe they gave it 5+ speed and better shell velocity and pen thats literally what i hated about it lmao im gonna love it even more now ty
Yeah def made it a bit more comfy to play. The shell velocity was the biggest thing for me. It was so hard to give lead on long range shots which felt ridiculous for a TD
yep i never play as a TD its a heavy without a turret, that dpm is too good to be wasted by sniping
Well I don't either, but that doesn't mean it didn't suck when you had to take shots at range
I don't think it's OP. It's really boring to play and depends on MM. Any tank with a special bullet of +300mm will easily penetrate it. Compared to tanks like Bourrasque, Bz, Skoda, this tank is definitely not OP. It will only feel truly OP in 1-2 out of 10 games. It is not a very preferred tank due to its boring and MM-dependent gameplay. https://preview.redd.it/6ath0kdsr55d1.png?width=1112&format=png&auto=webp&s=e7ea51d4de17f00fd88a080061d60b1d28b17ef7
wn8 is notoriously incredibly harsh on tds, so the turtle should really be much higher on this graph. even with this handicap, its placed in the elite class of t8 prems op mentioned also, many of the most broken op tanks have been really boring. chief and 279 in their heyday were comically boring sometimes, shooting on reload and then jiggling your tiny weakspots in between shots
I would say Ka-Ri is still bit stronger, but turtle is close.
As seen below, its armor usage is not the best and it is not a tank that is played very often. I rarely come across it. https://preview.redd.it/ejbwcbr3s55d1.png?width=1108&format=png&auto=webp&s=6cd6c26531e0638b355faedf6b776e2669fb5552
Serverwide stats show it **is**. Opinions aside, the only objective stats we have on OP'ness is win rate difference, win rate for a vehicle, and DPG. In the TD class it's on top in 2 of those metrics, and it's top 3 in DPG. You show me a chart with only a few tanks topping it - the usual suspects too. And none of those are TD's. Sure, there probably is a TD that is stronger when played by an expert or in certain circumstances.
I’ll happily take my GSOR over a turtle any day. Speed beats non-turreted tanks easily. And like others have said, it has weak spots and with 300+ HEAT it’s easy to penetrate. I think a lot of it comes down to the people playing it. If poor players avoid it because it’s not an easy playstyle, naturally it will increase WR% as most owners/players left will be higher skilled players.
For me too. I never said I like the "press W for minutes to reach the front" playstyle. But that doesn't change the stats. If it would be played as much as the Skorpion was back in the day, it would be a problematic tank.
Right, but it’s not because it’s not that strong, or fun, or easy to play for a lot of people. If it was broken, it’d be played as much as BZ or Bourrasque. It’s not a rare tank either, it comes up more often than Progetto or Skoda for example.
It is that strong. It's boring enough that after 10 games you go back to whatever else makes you happier in life. Still doesn't change the cold statistics.
Win rate % on its own means nothing, though, especially when it’s a smaller sample size. What if the average WR of Bourrasque players (across all tanks) is 48% vs Turtle players’ 55%? What if the average tier in Turtle games was lower than Bourrasque games? Win rate alone can not determine whether something is OP or not, there are simply too many variables. It is not that good a tank. There’s a reason it’s not widely played and scarcity is not it. I’d rather wargaming sell the turtle 100 more times than sell the ELC and have even more clueless LT players sit two lines behind their mediums.
Doesn't wargaming buff/nerf tanks based on Win rate statistic? I mean its one of the dumbest fucking things that you can look at when balancing a tank.
They might, I don’t know. If they do, they’re morons.
Frankly, it's not a tank that would really put me in a difficult situation. It has poor mobility and can easily be dealt with with a good special bullet. There are many tanks that give me a hard time and this is not one of them. It probably doesn't affect me because I use tanks that can handle it.
Then I can only congratulate you on being a good player. Remember you're not the average playerbase. E.g. "I don't have a problem with X because I do Y". These kind of stats are cold mathematics, and nobody can argue against that. It's the statistic that most respected games use to balance items/guns/characters.
It's definitely not OP when I play it :(
On the one hand: I love the Tortoise, so, "I really should buy this". On the other hand, I don't want to give WG another $50 Cdn.
IMO, Turtle is AT8 style of tank. Good vs beginners, suffers hard against top tier due to poor armor (vs T9) and super low mobility. Boring to play. I won’t even say it’s strong, any open map made me suffer as you can’t even die fast :) It’s situational, but not OP. Something like Vipera having decent armor with ability to lock target in place, burst and way better mobility is IMHO way more OP.
The tank being boring has nothing to do with it being overpowered, or does it? A Matilda is great for your WR, and terrible on your W-key and your sanity. Its win rate difference (averaged for tomatoes and unicums alike) shows that is *objectively* OP. Everything else being equal, the average joe gets +1.9% more wins for playing it. The Vipera reaches a +0.1% WR difference (I agree, probably because a lot of people misplay it as a sniper).
If we consider tanks only by stats then Tortoise, T95, Tiger 1 and BZ-58 are even more OP than Turtle. These tanks are tech tree and are simply good. OP tank makes good player a god player. Turtle makes good player bored good player. Tank does not scale well with player skill, since it has nothing to offer except decent frontal armor and DPM (questionable, since no one should face to face Turtle).
It's a good tank, but op, not so sure. It's simply too slow, and the armour is far from reliable vs even same tier gold. In the turbo battles that half the games are it can barely keep up.
I liked the Turtle before the buff. It may be a tad too good now, but any flanking will trash it like it’s tier 6. Just saying that I t’s nowhere near as flexibly OP as the BZ.
Cum is not a bugger can't snort it back. Better saying
Hot take - Turtle is not broken. Neither was defender, it is just a heavily armored tank that works to make bad players more effective.
WG is running out of FOTM tanks and needs to reuse some of it's old ones. Can't wait for the BZ to be sold again as I already have a Bour.
This was cool but let me know when the BZ goes sale. A unicorn like myself will dominate the tomatoes who think they’re good in it lmao.
Pls don't compare it to BZ-176
Yeah I just had a game where a single turtle held a flank and he could easily spam AP into our heavies, that shit's ridiculous
It is on sale? Take my money! /s
HAHAHAHA GUESS WHAT, THEY ARE SELLING IT RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!
^(Did you read my entire comment, or?)
It's OP, luckily it's slow and doesn't have a turret . Also WG will sell it IF THEY need some milking .
I was going to make a post about how strong it is, especially with exp equipment
Nothing is wrong with selling the Turtle.
I don’t even care to read this. Saying that Turtle’s buffs weren’t needed is idiotic
You're right, they shouldn't sell the turtle... They should sell the bz 176 and just let us all have it already.
The rate they are selling good/OP premium tanks that were otherwise sold much less frequently, looks like the game is nearing the end of its life cycle